Basic frame data guide for newbies

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  • MolehasmolesMolehasmoles Joined: Posts: 30
    edited July 2014
    Okay so I have question about Chun Li's ultra 1 (atleast I think it is). I know that it's very good for punishing fireballs, but can it punish a full screen range (or what you call it) hp fireball from ryu, or will the ryu have time to block?

    I have no idea if this was the right place to post my question. I just didn't want to make a new thread.
  • AntiochliAntiochli I throw blue balls of Fire. Joined: Posts: 148
    can it punish a full screen range (or what you call it) hp fireball from ryu, or will the ryu have time to block?

    Yes, Chun-Li's Ultra 1 can certainly punish a full screen fierce Hadoken from Ryu. Ryu's Hadokens all have the same recovery, regardless of the strength of the button (excepting Shakunetsu Hadoken, which starts up faster and recovers faster). So, if a Chun player gets a good read, or just has incredible reactions, as long as Hosenka is activated right as the Hadoken appears on screen Ryu won't recover before Hosenka connects. Hosenka is actually fast enough that the Chun player can activate relatively late, and still get a punish, same if Ryu throws Shakunetsu (it's faster on start up and recovery, but Hosenka will still win [though, personally, no Ryu should be throwing full screen EX Hadokens at a crouching opponent, that's a waste of meter]).

    For future reference, this is something that's remarkably easy to test for yourself: set the dummy to Ryu and record it throwing an Hadoken (or whatever move you might want to punish) and block the second the move comes out. Then set yourself to Chun-li (in this case) and practice trying to punish the fireball at different timings and distances to see what's possible.

    Lucky for us all, that's not the case.
  • Maverick BisonMaverick Bison Maverick Pshyco Power Joined: Posts: 1
    Are there any good apps on mobile devices that you can use for reference on the go? That would prove very useful to me as I look forward to going to Next Level Arcade a bit more often to gain some experience against real people.
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  • AntiochliAntiochli I throw blue balls of Fire. Joined: Posts: 148
    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fullmeter.fat

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bradygames.comusfivofda

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ultra-street-fighter-iv-official/id880087295?ls=1&mt=8

    Disclaimer: I haven't used any of these personally. The first link I found on Reddit (here's the thread: redd.it/27gzen. The second (android) and third (iOS) are the one's I've heard commentators plugging as the Official Frame Data App.
    Lucky for us all, that's not the case.
  • forte95forte95 Buster Cannoneer Joined: Posts: 544
    Okay so I have question about Chun Li's ultra 1 (atleast I think it is). I know that it's very good for punishing fireballs, but can it punish a full screen range (or what you call it) hp fireball from ryu, or will the ryu have time to block?

    I have no idea if this was the right place to post my question. I just didn't want to make a new thread.

    In terms of frames, yes it's technically possible. What's limiting you here is the range. U1 will still technically hit at max fullscreen range, but it's gonna hit with Chun's tippy toes so it's possible that the legs portion will fail to link.

    But yes it's possible. It's easier to go with dash ultra from max range because it still punishes and there's less chance to drop.
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  • free_manfree_man Joined: Posts: 81
    How many frames have fighting games PCB-based era, since SF2:WW until the last FG PCB-based? And about 3D FG since the first VF until the last 3D FG PCB-based?
  • j0nj0n Joined: Posts: 95
    Wanted to ask, how do character specific combos work? If I'm reading e ryu's frame right, his cr lp gives +5 on hit. On Rufus, you can link cr jab to cr hp, which is 6 frames. Also, cl mp cancels to a lot of his specials which we more than 3 frames. How does that all work out?
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,940
    Character specific combos are because of hitboxes, not because of frame data.

    The math checks out to me.
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  • j0nj0n Joined: Posts: 95
    It does? I thought if it's +5 frames on hit, you can only use moves 5 frames or less moves.

    If it's due to hit box, how many types of hit boxes are there? Or is that character specific? I ask just to understand how people come up with these combos.
  • RCFRCF cannot into throw teching Joined: Posts: 16
    Frame advantage gets calculated like: (amount of hitstun move causes) minus (all of the remaining recovery frames AND remaining active frames). The reason you can combo cr.lp to cr.hp is because Rufus' hitbox is unconventional in that he reels further back on getting hit, and so when rufus is being comboed the jab will connect on the second active frame instead of the first, which means there is one less frame you have to wait for E.Ryu to recover so it acts like it's +6 instead of +5 in that situation. (it would act like it has four frames of startup instead of three, however). It's the same principle that makes Bison's slide safe if he does it from far away but really unsafe if done very close. I have no idea how someone figured this out other than the natural result of many people playing the game for a long time and tons of motivation to look for anything that will give someone an edge.

    cl.mp combos into his specials because it is a cancel and not a link. When you cancel, you skip most of the recovery frames so cl.mp would behave like it's +14 on hit or something like that.
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  • j0nj0n Joined: Posts: 95
    Thanks RCF. I see, I kinda get what you mean. I didn't realize that the hitbox could make that much of a difference. This is one of the aspects of frame data that confused me.

    Ah, alright. I didn't realize that about cancels, or at least didn't think of it that way. Thanks for the clarification.
  • free_manfree_man Joined: Posts: 81
    It's possible create a formula to discover on hit/block and hit/block stun values without know these previously values, i.e., only with startup, active and recovery frames values?
  • fohstickfohstick Joined: Posts: 339
    does double tapping make unplinkable 1-frame links easier? According to the vesper arcade tutorials, they said that double tapping only works with links that are at least 2 frames, but I seen one of fur gagapa's recorded matches and he will always double tap s.LK after cl.HP which is an unplinkable 1-frame link, and the link would connect
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    fohstick wrote: »
    does double tapping make unplinkable 1-frame links easier? According to the vesper arcade tutorials, they said that double tapping only works with links that are at least 2 frames, but I seen one of fur gagapa's recorded matches and he will always double tap s.LK after cl.HP which is an unplinkable 1-frame link, and the link would connect
    It's not possible to double-tap inputs so that they come out on consecutive frames. This is because pushing a button normally occupies 2 frames - 1 for pressing it and one for releasing it (negative edge). You can even try it with a macro'd joystick to confirm it. Since negative edge doesn't affect normal moves, plinking is always better than double-tapping for 1f links. The reason Gagapa's consistency with that link is so high is probably because of practice and familiarity with his own method.
  • fohstickfohstick Joined: Posts: 339
    now that i think about, he probably has the select button remapped to plink his s.LK. Because the select button doesn't show up in the input display, it would look like he's double tapping
  • gagapagagapa Joined: Posts: 98
    edited September 2014
    Yes you re right. I use the select button method ;)
  • GreenwoodGreenwood Earth, the only true God Joined: Posts: 888
    What are the recovery frames on landing from a jump? Furthermore, are there different amounts of recovery for an empty jump compared to a jump HK?

    Sometimes, in mid-air I think there is a good chance that I'm going to whiff a cross-up, but I still
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  • ascensionXascensionX Joined: Posts: 404
    Funny i was just researching all of this for Ascension X when i ran into your page. Great resources book marking now.
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  • CONQUERLEFGCONQUERLEFG Joined: Posts: 6
    Guys I have a question. I was looking up on Yang's frame data and found things like 0+8, 0+6~32 in the active frame section. what do the + and ~ mean? Also I have hard time understanding what the parentheses mean: ( ), [ ].
  • PrinceVegetaPrinceVegeta Joined: Posts: 15
    Thanks, OP: I found this thread very useful.

    One question: why does Ryu's cr.lk link into cr.lp when it's +2 on hit, and cr.lp has 3 frames of start-up? Is it one of those weird cases of something comboing when the frame data says otherwise, or did I understand something wrong?
  • bypostmanbypostman Joined: Posts: 2,207
    edited July 2015
    Thanks, OP: I found this thread very useful.

    One question: why does Ryu's cr.lk link into cr.lp when it's +2 on hit, and cr.lp has 3 frames of start-up? Is it one of those weird cases of something comboing when the frame data says otherwise, or did I understand something wrong?

    It's chaining from the light punch. Lights in general can chain together for like half the cast and most of the shotos.

    You'll notice this when you just mash on lights they come together, without needing timing.

    As a side note, one of the things they don't tell you is that you can't cancel into specials from chains.

    That is why you'll notice if you do cr. lk into a tatsu or a fireball it will cancel, but shouldn't if you do cr. lp, cr lk, fireball.
  • VaderFettVaderFett Another DLC is coming your way! #PayUp Joined: Posts: 44
    I'm not great at math, but I'm gonna do my best learning this. I kinda understand it a bit, but I definitely need to read it up more. Thanks for simplifying it a bit for everybody.
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  • MatrixGravityMatrixGravity Joined: Posts: 102
    So when you see a move has a 4 frame startup, it actually means it takes 3 frames to startup and hits on frame 4

    But I am confused. How can it 'hit' on the 4th frame if you're in startup? I thought it is only considered a hit once you are in active frames.
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,287
    edited August 2015
    So when you see a move has a 4 frame startup, it actually means it takes 3 frames to startup and hits on frame 4

    But I am confused. How can it 'hit' on the 4th frame if you're in startup? I thought it is only considered a hit once you are in active frames.

    I had a discussion in SF5 forum about this. It isn't in startup.

    There are two conventions for frame data. He mentions in his description at the top he is referring to the convention where the last startup frame is considered the first active frame 'because apparently people find it hard to add one in their head'.

    Convention #1 Factually Correct
    Startup is just the initial frame of the move so startup+1 = actual speed of the move a 3 frame move would have 2 frames of startup. Total duration for this move is now easy Startup+Active+Recovery.

    Convention #2 Easy for looking at 1 frame Links
    Startup = startup+first active frame so when you look at hit / block stun you can figure your links and frame traps without having to worry about if you added 1 to it or not. If you are +5 after cr. Jab then any move that has 5 or less in the startup column will link. Downside to #2 is that the total duration of the move is actually startup+active+recovery-1.

    Old games use #1 but when SF4 came around more places started using #2 for obvious reasons (SF4 being retarded link heavy). Thus a lot of players became familiar with #2 so now most places use #2 but if you look up older game frame data they typically use #1.
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  • MatrixGravityMatrixGravity Joined: Posts: 102
    Sigh I just cant. None of this makes any sense to me. Like why does framedata even include the extra frame in startup if you just have to subtract it later? Shit makes no sense at all..
  • MatrixGravityMatrixGravity Joined: Posts: 102
    So when you see a move has a 4 frame startup, it actually means it takes 3 frames to startup and hits on frame 4

    But I am confused. How can it 'hit' on the 4th frame if you're in startup? I thought it is only considered a hit once you are in active frames.

    I had a discussion in SF5 forum about this. It isn't in startup.

    There are two conventions for frame data. He mentions in his description at the top he is referring to the convention where the last startup frame is considered the first active frame 'because apparently people find it hard to add one in their head'.

    Convention #1 Factually Correct
    Startup is just the initial frame of the move so startup+1 = actual speed of the move a 3 frame move would have 2 frames of startup. Total duration for this move is now easy Startup+Active+Recovery.

    Convention #2 Easy for looking at 1 frame Links
    Startup = startup+first active frame so when you look at hit / block stun you can figure your links and frame traps without having to worry about if you added 1 to it or not. If you are +5 after cr. Jab then any move that has 5 or less in the startup column will link. Downside to #2 is that the total duration of the move is actually startup+active+recovery-1.

    Old games use #1 but when SF4 came around more places started using #2 for obvious reasons (SF4 being retarded link heavy). Thus a lot of players became familiar with #2 so now most places use #2 but if you look up older game frame data they typically use #1.

    What.........?
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    Sigh I just cant. None of this makes any sense to me. Like why does framedata even include the extra frame in startup if you just have to subtract it later? Shit makes no sense at all..
    Why do you want to subract it later? What are you trying to figure out?

    In a game like SFIV, if an opponent's move is -8f on block, just look for a move in your arsenal that has its startup listed as 8f or less to know if you can use it to punish. You don't need to subtract anything.
  • MatrixGravityMatrixGravity Joined: Posts: 102
    edited September 2015
    ilitirit wrote: »
    Sigh I just cant. None of this makes any sense to me. Like why does framedata even include the extra frame in startup if you just have to subtract it later? Shit makes no sense at all..
    Why do you want to subract it later? What are you trying to figure out?

    In a game like SFIV, if an opponent's move is -8f on block, just look for a move in your arsenal that has its startup listed as 8f or less to know if you can use it to punish. You don't need to subtract anything.

    Well, in the OP, he writes,

    "The next column represents the move's total lifespan in terms of frames. In this case, it's 12. "But 4 + 3 + 6 = 13!!" I hear you say. That's true but remember that the first frame of a move's active phase is included in the startup! So it's actually 3 + 3 + 6."


    So aren't you supposed to subtract 1 to get the frame data for stuff...? I'm confused..
  • BurnYourEgoBurnYourEgo Ishikawa don't care about your weeabullshit avatar. Joined: Posts: 1,997
    I never liked that notation for that reason, it can confuse some people because it is sort of a misnomer. To me start up should only be what leads up to the first active frame. That other notation has overlap where what they are calling start up includes one of the active frames.

    I think of it simply as, if a move has a 3 frame startup, it can't punish things that are -3 frames or less, even if it's a frame perfect punish, because the move isn't active until the 4th frame.

    If I refer to something to a 3 frame jab, is means it has 2 frames of start up, and is active on the third frame, thus it can punish things are -3 or worse.

    This really isn't conveying any different information than the posts above, merely rephrasing it a bit.
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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    edited September 2015
    So aren't you supposed to subtract 1 to get the frame data for stuff...? I'm confused..
    My question is what are you trying to figure out with regards to actual gameplay? Why do you want to know how long the move lasts?

    There's not really much you can do with that information that you don't already know intuitively.

    Remember, the first post also says this:
    Wait wait wait... that's way too much info for me! And how am I supposed to remember all these numbers anyway!?
    The important thing is to understand the concepts and implications, not remember the actual numbers. Frame data is usually just used as a reference. Very few players try to memorize all the numbers. Some of the data sticks in your head because it gets discussed a lot on forums etc, but not many people out there actually even know the all frame data for the characters they main. And even if you could memorize all the numbers, it's not going to help you in a match. You're not going to sit there and manually count the frames of various attacks.

    So why even bother with frame data at all then?
    It's completely possible to play without even knowing an iota of frame data. Some top players get by without even considering it. In fact, in the good ol' days playing "by feel" was the only way people played, and there are many legendary players that come from that era. Frame data makes it easier to reason about and discuss certain things though. Instead of saying an attack is "quick", you can say it's a 3 frame move and everyone will know what you're talking about. It also takes out a lot of the grunt work. Instead of going through your entire arsenal trying to figure out which move you can use to punish after you blocked your opponent's cr.hk, you can just look up the relevant frame data and have the answer in a few seconds.

  • KenshinrazzKenshinrazz Joined: Posts: 2
    Need some help.

    Trying to read this but I have no idea what the number means at the start of the move in question e.g. 5LP

    http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/stats/cbt4/C91

    Can someone tell me? Used to seeing crouch lp or c.lp
  • Trouble BrewingTrouble Brewing Super Coffee Fighter V Joined: Posts: 5,174 mod
    edited February 2016
    It's anime game notation. The numbers are your keyboard's number pad. They correspond to joystick directions. 5lp is neutral light punch.
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  • KenshinrazzKenshinrazz Joined: Posts: 2
    Many thanks!
  • bKbbKb Master of none Joined: Posts: 28
    Thanks a lot for this guide. Now I start to get an idea, what this frame data is all about.
    One question: How are the frames per action determined? I mean, you can't just count them, can you?
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  • DarkMcLongshanksDarkMcLongshanks King of the Wolves Joined: Posts: 118
    For whatever reason I'm still not getting it. I have guides and I understand a little bit, but for the most part I am CLUELESS!!!!
  • Project_6Project_6 Deadeye Joined: Posts: 22
    I get the basics. But what about the more complex frame data?
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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    edited October 2016
    Project_6 wrote: »
    But what about the more complex frame data?
    Such as?
  • VIVITVIVIT We Can Do It! Joined: Posts: 23
    So I'd like to know if there's a program or applet somewhere that I can use to figure out how much time is passing between button presses. I want to learn to kara-throw in 3S and it's killing me.
    NickRocks wrote: »
    holy fuck i want to beat you up and stuff you in a locker so bad
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,388
    edited February 24
    VIVIT wrote: »
    So I'd like to know if there's a program or applet somewhere that I can use to figure out how much time is passing between button presses. I want to learn to kara-throw in 3S and it's killing me.

    Search on Youtube for "3s Training Mode Emulator Guide". The relevant part of the video is at 9m24s

  • GenerousGenerous Joined: Posts: 12
    edited May 16
    This post was deleted by its creator.
    Post edited by Generous on
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