Basic frame data guide for newbies

ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭✭
What are frames anyway?
Ever created or even seen a flipbook animation? If you have, then you already understand the concept. The technical details don't really matter. If Ryu is a character in your flip book animation, then the pages would be the frames. You can think of fighting games as flip book animations that (usually) run at 60 frames (or "pages") per second.

But fighting games are more complex than flipbook animations!
The key is to only concentrate on the entities in the game that affect gameplay. ie. Characters and projectiles. Everything else can safely be ignored. Noone is interested in the frame data of a spectator dancing in the stage's background.

Aah OK... but how does this help me? And what do all those numbers in the guides mean?
Before we get to that, remember that every attack in the game has 3 phases - startup, active, and recovery. Think of physically throwing a punch. The startup is when you raise your fist from it's resting position, pull it back and start to throw it forward. At this stage your punch is practically incapable of doing any damage. The active phase is when your arm is fully extended and is capable of connecting with a target and doing damage. The recovery phase is when you pull your arm back to it's resting position. In fighting games, frames give us a convenient unit of measurement when considering (among other things) how long these phases last for the different moves. ie. If SFIV is one giant flip book, then the frame data is basically a count of how many pages it takes to animate certain moves.

Sounds simple enough, but I still don't understand how to read frame data.
Let's take an example straight from SRK's SFIV Ryu Wiki:

The frame-relevant columns in the table are Startup, Active, Recovery, Frames On Guard, Total, Frames On Hit, Frames of Block Stun and Frames of Hit Stun
For Ryu's Far Light Punch, the respective values for the move's phases are:
4 Startup frames
3 Active frames
6 Recovery frames

The convention in frame guides is to include the first frame of the active phase of the move in it's startup (apparently because some people find it hard to add 1 to a number). So when you see a move has a 4 frame startup, it actually means it takes 3 frames to startup and hits on frame 4. This is also incidentally what people mean when they refer to "X" frame moves. X just represents the first frame of the move's active phase (ie. the first frame it's capable of hitting the opponent). In this case, Ryu's Far LP is a 4 frame move. The frame data also says the active phase of Far LP lasts for 3 frames, which means that it's capable of hitting an opponent for 3 frames in it's life span. The 6 frames of recovery should be obvious.

The next column represents the move's total lifespan in terms of frames. In this case, it's 12. "But 4 + 3 + 6 = 13!!" I hear you say. That's true but remember that the first frame of a move's active phase is included in the startup! So it's actually 3 + 3 + 6.

Let's ignore the Frames On Block/Hit columns for now and focus on the Block/Hit stun columns. Block stun represents the number of frames that you will be unable to do anything (besides block) if you block a certain move. Hit stun represents the number of frames that you will be unable to do anything if you get hit by it. Note that this usually only applies to grounded opponents. In this case, Ryu's Far LP does 10 frames of block stun and 13 frames of hit stun. So if you get hit by it and you're not blocking, you won't be able to do anything for 13 frames. If you were blocking, you'll be kept in a blocking state for 10 frames.

Frames on hit/block represent how much quicker (or slower) than your opponent you recover after landing a move (under standard conditions). Ever heard of people talking about how a "safe" a move is after hit/block? Or "frame advantage"? This is what these numbers represent. It's actually pretty simple to calculate, but frame guides include it for convenience. Without looking at the frame data, we can calculate it ourselves by adding the number of active and recovery frames, subtracting one (we don't include the frame where the move connects), and then subtracting this value from the block/hit stun values. So for Ryu's Far LP, we have:
3 active frames + 6 recovery frames - 1 connecting frame = 8.

Subtracting from block/hitstun:
13 - 8 = +5 on hit
10 - 8 = +2 on block

... which is exactly what the frame data says. This means that if your opponent blocks your Far LP, you'll be able to act 2 frames quicker than them after it lands (in other words, you have a 2 frame advantage). And if they don't block it, you'll get a 5 frame advantage over them.

Any move that is +0 or more on hit/block is considered safe from punishment. However, even though some moves are -1 or -2 on block/hit (meaning your opponent recovers quicker than you), they are still safe under most conditions because very few moves in the game are able to punish within two frames. Remember, a move has to reach it's active phase before it's able to connect and do damage. If an opponent tries to punish your move with a move that has a long startup, you'll usually have enough time to evade or block it even if you are at a slight frame disadvantage.
On the other hand, consider though Ryu's Close HP. It's -15 on block and -10 on hit. Your opponent will recover a full 10 frames quicker than you even if you successfully land it and will be punish you with virtually any move in his arsenal. It's completely unsafe on block and hit. Fortunately, you can skip the recovery of the of close HP by cancelling it straight into a special move like SRK, Fireball or Tatsu.

Wait wait wait... that's way too much info for me! And how am I supposed to remember all these numbers anyway!?
The important thing is to understand the concepts and implications, not remember the actual numbers. Frame data is usually just used as a reference. Very few players try to memorize all the numbers. Some of the data sticks in your head because it gets discussed a lot on forums etc, but not many people out there actually even know the all frame data for the characters they main. And even if you could memorize all the numbers, it's not going to help you in a match. You're not going to sit there and manually count the frames of various attacks.

So why even bother with frame data at all then?
It's completely possible to play without even knowing an iota of frame data. Some top players get by without even considering it. In fact, in the good 'ol days playing "by feel" was the only way people played, and there are many legendary players that come from that era. Frame data makes it easier to reason about and discuss certain things though. Instead of saying an attack is "quick", you can say it's a 3 frame move and everyone will know what you're talking about. It also takes out a lot of the grunt work. Instead of going through your entire arsenal trying to figure out which move you can use to punish after you blocked your opponent's cr.hk, you can just look up the relevant frame data and have the answer in a few seconds.

OK, I think I understand. But why measure in frames? If you're measuring duration why not use something like milliseconds?
Because it's easier to reason and talk about a 4f move than a 66.67ms move

Makes sense. So basically I can use the frame data to figure out combos and stuff?
Yep, but you can also use the frame data to easily figure out which moves can punish what, how safe/unsafe certain moves are, and check how much invincibility a move has. This information is usually included as a note or comment. eg. The note: "1~4f invincible, 5~16f lower body invincibility" for Ryu's HP Shoryuken means that it's invulnerable to normal attacks from frame 1 to 4, and the lower part of his body is invincible from frame 5 to 16. Again, you don't have to memorize these numbers, but given this information it's pretty easy to figure out that even if your opponent is able to attack with a poke or something a few frames before you are, you can do an HP Shoryuken to beat them because it has so many invincibility frames.

What's a "meaty"?
Remember how we calculated the frame advantage on block/hit? We took the hit/block stun and subtracted the recovery AND active frames. Why subtract the active frames? Because if you connect Ryu's Far LP on the very first active frame (frame 4), there are still 2 more active frames that have to pass before you reach the recovery phase. This means that after the move connects, there are 2 remaining active frames + 6 recovery frames = 8 effective frames of recovery. However, if you manage to connect the move on it's last active frame then you only have to endure 6 frames of recovery. This is known as a "meaty" (it doesn't have to connect on the last active frame though). How do you connect a meaty attack? The simplest and most common way is to time the attack on your opponent's wake up so that they wake up "into" the move's active frames. The benefit of a meaty is it forces your opponent to either block or perform an invincible move (some reversals or an evasive move like a backdash). It also gives you more frame advantage on block/hit. Some link combos actually require you to use a meaty attack because under normal circumstances you wouldn't have enough frame advantage to link the followup.

WIP... Questions, comments, suggestions, corrections etc are welcomed and encouraged

Comments

  • Tonedef5959Tonedef5959 Wakeup Sweep Joined: Posts: 241
    nominate for sticky
    Mash potatoes, not DP.
  • CrhustleCrhustle Joined: Posts: 472
    I 2nd that. Good write up should help a lot of folks.
    "I'm only gonna get stronger"
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    Unknown Joined:
    This is great. Thanks! (Sticky would be a good idea!)

    Oh, and a question about safe moves and punishing. Once you discover if a move has negative frames on hit/block, you do have to consider the startup frames for the move you intend to use as punish, correct? In this case you need a move which becomes active at a frame number which falls within your opponent's hit/block disadvantage?
  • Tonedef5959Tonedef5959 Wakeup Sweep Joined: Posts: 241
    This is great. Thanks! (Sticky would be a good idea!)

    Oh, and a question about safe moves and punishing. Once you discover if a move has negative frames on hit/block, you do have to consider the startup frames for the move you intend to use as punish, correct? In this case you need a move which becomes active at a frame number which falls within your opponent's hit/block disadvantage?

    some moves are negative 1 or negative 2 on block. A move that is negative 3 is considered unsafe generally. Few people have a move that comes out in 2 frames to punish a move that is negative 2. Gief's SPD and Chun;s super can punish bc they are 2 frames or less. Negative 3 is the magic barrier for most moves bc Ryu's DP comes out in three frames. ;)

    Moves that grant 3 frames or more on block and leave you close to the opponent are moves that are candidates to start the tick throw game. Balrog s stand jab gives you +5 on hit. a throw comes out in 3 frames no matter what character.
    Mash potatoes, not DP.
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    Unknown Joined:
    thanks! just what i ordered in tbird's newbie video thread! :-)
  • Trouble BrewingTrouble Brewing AAAAAA! Joined: Posts: 4,319 mod
    Good stuff.
    The artist formerly known as Starcade RIP
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    Unknown Joined:
    Moves that grant 3 frames or more on block and leave you close to the opponent are moves that are candidates to start the tick throw game. Balrog s stand jab gives you +5 on hit. a throw comes out in 3 frames no matter what character.
    Thanks for the feedback on that. Also on that note, is there a particularly good setup for training mode (via a specific recording perhaps) I could use to learn tick throwing? I'm not exactly sure how the timing works.
  • Lil' SoulLil' Soul Joined: Posts: 40
    Thanks for this in depth clarification on frame data ilitirit.. It's most enlightening.. Ha.. And I dig the way you wrote it up in conversation form. That was clever.
    Peace Out,

    Lil' Soul
  • str[e]akstr[e]ak Friendly Neighborhood Sneaker Ninja Joined: Posts: 2,811
    ilitirit, that was a great write up. :tup:

    i hate to bump a semi-old thread, but i do have a question concerning frame data. how does one calculate the number of frames of block stun and hit stun? in SFIV, nobody had to calculate these numbers because they were already given in the frame data on the SRK wiki. unfortunately, for SSFIV, we don't have that luxury.

    the formulas you provided for calculating block stun and hit stun are:
    (Frames of Block Stun) = ((Active) + (Recovery) - 1) + (Frame Advantage / Disadvantage on Block)
    (Frames of Hit Stun) = ((Active) + (Recovery) - 1) + (Frame Advantage / Disadvantage on Hit)

    using your example of ryu's far standing jab from SFIV:
    (Frames of Block Stun) = ((Active) + (Recovery) - 1) + (Frame Advantage / Disadvantage on Block)
    (10) = ((2) + (7) - 1) + (2)
    (10) = (8) + (2)
    (10) = (10) | everything checks out!
    (Frames of Hit Stun) = ((Active) + (Recovery) - 1) + (Frame Advantage / Disadvantage on Hit)
    (13) = ((2) + (7) - 1) + (5)
    (13) = (8) + (5)
    (13) = (13) | and, everything checks out again!

    however, some characters have moves that have odd-looking active frames. for example, let's use chun-li's close standing strong from SFIV (double slap). according to the SRK wiki:
    Startup = 4
    Active = 3(6)3
    Recovery = 14
    Frames on Block = -3
    Frames on Hit = 0
    Frames of Block Stun = 13
    Frames of Hit Stun = 16

    how would we go about applying the above formulas to this situation? i guess you could use simple arithmetic to figure out what the value for "(Active)" is, but i think this technique may yield inconsistent / confusing results.
    (Frames of Block Stun) = ((Active) + (Recovery) - 1) + (Frame Advantage / Disadvantage on Block)
    (13) = ((Active) + (14) - 1) + (-3)
    (13) = ((Active) + 13) + (-3)
    (13) = (Active) + 10
    (Active) = 3

    using chun-li's crouching fierce from SFIV:
    (Frames of Block Stun) = ((Active) + (Recovery) - 1) + (Frame Advantage / Disadvantage on Block)
    (17) = ((Active) + (18) - 1) + (-2)
    (17) = ((Active) + 17) + (-2)
    (17) = (Active) + 15
    (Active) = 2 | on the SRK wiki, chun's active frames are listed as: 2(6)2.

    using ken's short hurricane kick from SFIV:
    (Frames of Block Stun) = ((Active) + (Recovery) - 1) + (Frame Advantage / Disadvantage on Block)
    (20) = ((Active) + (12+8) - 1) + (-9)
    (20) = ((Active) + 19) + (-9)
    (20) = (Active) + 10
    (Active) = 10 | on the SRK wiki, ken's active frames are listed as: 1(4)2(6)2.

    i guess i have a few secondary questions as well: how do we interpret active frames such as these? also, how do we interpret active frames that look like this: 2*2 (ryu's forward + fierce in SFIV)?

    if anyone can shed some light on this topic, i'd be really grateful. :china:
    The SSFIV: AE Guy Match Up Thread Index:
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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭✭
    You can just do a reverse calculation if you know the frame advantage. Note though that this might not be useful at all because to the game, each active part of a multi-hitting move is a separate move on it's own which may or may not have distinct properties. For example, the knockback from a Blanka ball differs depending on which part of the move connects. In fact, there are even moves with 1 active part that the games sees as distinct. So even if you can do a calculation, you don't really know which part of the move that hit/block stun value belongs to.

    If you see values like "2*2", it means the move consists of multiple parts separated by no (but not necessarily zero) significant frames. If you see a value in brackets instead of an asterisk, it means that the move is inactive for those amount of frames.
  • str[e]akstr[e]ak Friendly Neighborhood Sneaker Ninja Joined: Posts: 2,811
    You can just do a reverse calculation if you know the frame advantage. Note though that this might not be useful at all because to the game, each active part of a multi-hitting move is a separate move on it's own which may or may not have distinct properties. For example, the knockback from a Blanka ball differs depending on which part of the move connects. In fact, there are even moves with 1 active part that the games sees as distinct. So even if you can do a calculation, you don't really know which part of the move that hit/block stun value belongs to.

    ah, i see. that's what makes the calculations a little confusing.
    If you see values like "2*2", it means the move consists of multiple parts separated by no (but not necessarily zero) significant frames. If you see a value in brackets instead of an asterisk, it means that the move is inactive for those amount of frames.

    hm, that's interesting. doesn't seem too useful, i guess, but it's still good to know.

    thanks for all the help!
    The SSFIV: AE Guy Match Up Thread Index:
    http://tinyurl.com/AEGuyMatchUpThread
    I enter tournaments as Real Life Bonus Stage:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/akaRLBS
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    Unknown Joined:
    This is when SF4 (and fighters in general) start to go over my head. Thanks!
  • dicciediccie Joined: Posts: 11
    I know this is probably dumb, but how do you work the recovery time on whiff .

    Is it just the recovery for the move or do you also need to subtract/add the active frames ?

    Thanks
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,675 ✭✭✭
    Recovery on whiff is the full recovery time. For reacting to opponents whiffed moves, add the startup and active frames on top of that.
    Why.
  • Tetsuo ShoujiroTetsuo Shoujiro Noob at everything Joined: Posts: 7
  • DoogliesDooglies Joined: Posts: 13
    So if I'm understanding this right, you can calculate how big the window is for linking two moves together from this.

    IE if you are linking ryu's cr.lk-cr.mk:
    cr.lk is +5 on hit, and cr.mk hits on 5, so you really only have 1 frame to push cr.mk in order for it to link without giving them a chance to block.
    Is this correct?
    Do most/all links only have a 1 frame window?
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,675 ✭✭✭
    It's correct, and no, most links have a bigger than 1f window.
    Why.
  • Proto-StrikerProto-Striker Retro Gamer Joined: Posts: 16
    I am a brand new player to Street Fighter and I know this thread is pretty old, but man this is the exact info I needed to help boost me in my metagame for my Akuma and Cammy. Ilitirit you are the man of my evening (just for today) thanks so much for your easy to understand info on frame data. Many thanks!
    [SIZE=13px]No one can change the past. The only thing we can do is strive to make up for our mistakes. Why must we make up for our mistakes, you ask? Because in doing so... can we find the way back to our path. And once we've found our path we can move on from our past mistakes toward a brighter future.[/SIZE]
  • ArKade JArKade J Got the edge Joined: Posts: 3
    Wow, this little faq is really helpful. Covered some of the basics I never really knew about the game
  • dude-whatdude-what Joined: Posts: 26
    Wow this was extremely helpful. Now I can try to calculate what moves actually link into eachother. I never really looked at it through that perspective.
    XBL: Onehardtard

    I'm retarded with choosing characters.
  • Florence19Florence19 Joined: Posts: 5
  • | BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE || BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE | Joined: Posts: 2
    Thanks a lot for all the information, [SIZE=13px]ilitirit[/SIZE]. It's helping me a lot.
  • ninja vninja v Joined: Posts: 76
    this type of stuff always goes over my head - never found a use for all that frame rate data. but informative atleast - thanks op!
  • TurboNewbieTurboNewbie Joined: Posts: 27
    Even though I don't fully understand the calculations, seeing the VesperArcade videos and to know which moves are safe, how much stun damage they have and the speed of normals and what not, should be very helpful on higher levels.

    For example the standing close fierce punch of Ryu has a high recovery time that it can be punished if it is not cancelled into a Hadouken, I am correct?

    If this is correct, there should be a lot of applications on combo's creations on the game :)
    :):qcf::)
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,376 ✭✭✭✭
    Even though I don't fully understand the calculations, seeing the VesperArcade videos and to know which moves are safe, how much stun damage they have and the speed of normals and what not, should be very helpful on higher levels.

    For example the standing close fierce punch of Ryu has a high recovery time that it can be punished if it is not cancelled into a Hadouken, I am correct?

    If this is correct, there should be a lot of applications on combo's creations on the game :)

    That's one example of how to use frame data. It helps determine which moves are unsafe, and which moves you can use to punish it, from a purely theoretical point of view.

    It also aids in combo creation, but often there are some combos that work in the game, which are technically impossible if you just look at the frame data for the moves. At the end of the day, it's still all about playing the game, poking and prodding at it, alongside viewing the technical frame data.

    It's especially useful in determining setups for certain situations, such as safe-jumps, frame traps, etc.
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit Atomic Zangi Joined: Posts: 303
    hey, can someone explain to me the frame advantage regarding projectiles.

    eg. Sagat's high tiger shot is -2 on block, and +2 on hit. Just what does that mean?

    I can understand that +2 on hit, means, your stuck in 2 frames of hit animation from the projectile.

    But -2 on block?
    Or is it only in regards to when your up close? Eg. Tiger shot is total 39 frames. If you block the Tiger shot up close, before the projectile has time to travel, your at +2 on block - obviously your at a distance due to pushback

    Thanks.
    Ultimate Catastrophic Buster: The Theory of Zangief
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,675 ✭✭✭
    Yes, the -on block / +on hit for projectiles always assumes you're right next to the opponent.
    Why.
  • jpenguin77jpenguin77 I just keep gettin back up Joined: Posts: 167
    I am 35 and played street fighter since 1992. I can say learning frames has been hard but the old days of feeling are gone when up against A+ players. Sometimes I feel like I am playing DDR instead of SF. SFxT especially is one you gotta get frames on. I need a tutor. SMH.
    Avian Smackdown
  • OnlineGarbageOnlineGarbage PSN: OnlineGarbage Joined: Posts: 187
    can someone please try to answer this... i understand how frame data adds up except for how it works when read for supers.

    for example, Ryu's super is read as: 1+2

    According to this it's 3 frames... but it's really 1 frame of freezing, then 2 frame startup from what i hear. my question is in it's application and if its correct....

    how many frames do i actually need for startup then? does this mean i need only a 1 frame window (within a frame trap for example) to perform Ryu's super? or do I need 2 frames only... and that one extra frame is just to get technical about it?
  • PurplePonyArcadePurplePonyArcade Robotic killing machine in training Joined: Posts: 28
    Very helpful. Much appreciated.
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  • SPECTERLIGHTSPECTERLIGHT Hear with The Third Eye Receptor... Joined: Posts: 698
    Awesome stuff! If you know of links for a variety of games' frame data, let me know. I'd like to add it to the Newbies Links along with a link to this thread.
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  • DarrellsOnlineDarrellsOnline Joined: Posts: 4
    I know I'm late but it's obviously clear that a whiffed moves animation looks faster than a move that hit or was blocked. The blocked/Hit animation looks longer than a whiffed move. So as for the moves official recovery, how is any of this believable. For all we know there is a recovery for a move on block or hit. Can someone help me with that?
  • Drake AldanDrake Aldan It's a doggy dog world. Joined: Posts: 212 ✭✭
    I know I'm late but it's obviously clear that a whiffed moves animation looks faster than a move that hit or was blocked. The blocked/Hit animation looks longer than a whiffed move. So as for the moves official recovery, how is any of this believable. For all we know there is a recovery for a move on block or hit. Can someone help me with that?
    You've gotta read!


    When you whiff a move, the move goes through startup-active-recovery. When you connect with a move (i.e. the active frames touch the other character), hitstun or blockstun will activate and change the outcome, affecting both characters. This is why frame data has "on guard" and "on hit" categories.

    Ryu's Crouching Medium Kick has 12 frames of recovery. If guarded, 13 frames of blockstun occur from the first active frame (assuming that it connects on the first active frame). So, 4 active frames plus those 12 frames of recovery equals 16 frames. Since there were 13 frames of blockstun, 16-13 = 3. Ryu recovers 3 frames slower than the opponent (-3).

    If it hits, 16 frames of hitstun occur from the first active frame. So, 4 active frames plus those 12 frames of recovery equals 16 frames. Since there were 16 frames of hitstun, 16-16 = 0. Ryu recovers at the same time as the opponent (0).

    Of course this is assuming cr. MK is not canceled into a special move or super.


    Read the first post again.
    "There's some dangerous 'so-and-so's out there."
    "Yeah, and a lot of tough 'some guy's too."
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