Gen General Discussion Thread: Theory Fighter!

zUkUuzUkUu Theory ProJoined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
someone wanted a general discussion thread: here it is. (i might add some FAQ or facts if they seem to reoccur)

another topic: j.lk as AA. has the most active frames and a weired hit box, it stuffs quite alot due to the jump arc.
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Comments

  • KmoKmo Joined: Posts: 13
    I've been trying to use U2 as much as possible, but it's so unreliable. I usually just go U1, even against fireball characters. My footsies can use the practice anyway.

    Teiga almost always trades in the air for me, so I decided it's just way to gimmicky, and Shitenkestu has a habit of avoiding a full connection for me.

    I haven't really tried KKK c.lk purposely as an anti-air. It sometimes comes out when I slide my thumb over the button by accident and stuffs my opponent's jump in. I get lucky I guess.

    On a related note: Gen v Guile. This was a dreaded match in vanilla and it is now my most dreaded match in super. It just seems if it were two top players facing each other, Guile would dominate with 8-2 or 9-1. So how do you deal with the experienced guile players? The ones who know their normals and abuse them along with air throw.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    sry, j.lk^^

    here is the hitbox:
    http://img14.abload.de/img/crane_jump_lk4crx.jpeg

    it has 4 startup and 9(!) active frames. sadly, only 40 dmg.
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  • tha messiahtha messiah Team Cranis Style Joined: Posts: 1,902
    I'm seriously thinking about dropping Gen. He's the most unrewarding uphill battle character there is. I've had better luck with Rose and I suck with her. All I do is fight freaking Ryus and Kens and both are amazing at zoning and Kens stupid Air Tatsu is god like. His footsies are amazing too. I'm tired of having to do nothing but f'ing bait. I'm getting tired of having to do two or three times as much than the other player just to get some decent damage in, without super or ultra. Hell vs good Ryus sometimes it takes as long as 30 seconds just for me to get in on them so I can jump safely over their fireball, usually they don't throw anything, so I can't jump. And all they do is back off or crouch block forward, crouch block forward. I wish some of the higher ranked gens posted more videos. Half of Oni Fuz's are Abels and low BP abels at that. He had a few high BP kens that didn't even play that great.
    S3: Gouki
    SFIV: Gouki, Gen
    SSFIV AE: Gen, Gouki, Dan, Rose

    http://www.youtube.com/user/whosnkn
  • ZarukaZaruka the Fool Joined: Posts: 856
    I'm seriously thinking about dropping Gen. He's the most unrewarding uphill battle character there is. I've had better luck with Rose and I suck with her. All I do is fight freaking Ryus and Kens and both are amazing at zoning and Kens stupid Air Tatsu is god like. His footsies are amazing too. I'm tired of having to do nothing but f'ing bait. I'm getting tired of having to do two or three times as much than the other player just to get some decent damage in, without super or ultra. Hell vs good Ryus sometimes it takes as long as 30 seconds just for me to get in on them so I can jump safely over their fireball, usually they don't throw anything, so I can't jump. And all they do is back off or crouch block forward, crouch block forward. I wish some of the higher ranked gens posted more videos. Half of Oni Fuz's are Abels and low BP abels at that. He had a few high BP kens that didn't even play that great.

    i can feel your pain i face a really good ken last night who had his links down and it was almost imposable to do damage. he was a really good player tho had ken links down and yes i did lost.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ZarukaFu?feature=mhee my youtube account for all your scrub viewing needs. now you can watch me live with http://www.twitch.tv/zaruka.
  • catscratchcatscratch Joined: Posts: 37
    Yeah, Gen's frustrating. When you look at the tools some (ok, most) other characters have you just start to think why you're even wasting your time with Gen's hard combos that don't do any damage. One of my primary practice partners offline plays a very lame (and I mean this as a compliment) Ryu with really good footsies and zoning. Pain in the ass to deal with for just about any character but with Gen you just want to throw your stick at the TV sometimes. At least with Blanka I've got enough tools to deal with the zoning while still getting the pianoing fix.

    But, I've been thinking (bad habit, I know)... we need to work more untechable knockdowns into Gen's BnB combos, at least to help keep up some sort of offensive momentum.

    How viable is it to try and combo more into crane c.lk --> mantis c.hk from the ground? It seems like the range on crane c.lk is so limited that if you try to hitconfirm into it you just end up pushing people out of range. Still I've been working on stuff like mp mk hands fadc mp crane c.lk mantis c.hk. Doesn't seem to be too reliable though, but maybe it's just my bad execution, so I'll keep working on it.

    EX hands into sweep seems to have the same problem - if you try to hitconfirm into EX hands from any kind of lengthy string you just push people out of range and the sweep whiffs, and if you don't hitconfirm, then you're just blowing meter on blocked EX hands. Mp mk EX hands sweep seems to work pretty well though, but is also somewhat unrealiable for me with my sloppy execution, at least on smaller characters.

    If mantis sweep had a 6 frame startup, that would solve a lot of problems. Being able to do c.lk c.lp s.mp c.hk would open up a ton of new pressure opportunities.
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm seriously thinking about dropping Gen. He's the most unrewarding uphill battle character there is. I've had better luck with Rose and I suck with her. All I do is fight freaking Ryus and Kens and both are amazing at zoning and Kens stupid Air Tatsu is god like. His footsies are amazing too. I'm tired of having to do nothing but f'ing bait. I'm getting tired of having to do two or three times as much than the other player just to get some decent damage in, without super or ultra. Hell vs good Ryus sometimes it takes as long as 30 seconds just for me to get in on them so I can jump safely over their fireball, usually they don't throw anything, so I can't jump. And all they do is back off or crouch block forward, crouch block forward. I wish some of the higher ranked gens posted more videos. Half of Oni Fuz's are Abels and low BP abels at that. He had a few high BP kens that didn't even play that great.

    my random ken matchup thoughts.

    1.pick ultra 2.
    2.absorb as many fireballs as you can.
    3.crane cr.mk under ex fireballs
    4.if they sit back and wait on you, take the opporutunity to build some meter with giekros or whatever.
    5.most players stop throwing fireballss when they realize you would rather utilize their zoning/turtling for building your own super meter and stocking an anti fireball ultra
    6.use focus attacks a lot if he starts step kicking all the time
    7.shotos are easilly anti aired in either stance

    also thanks zuuku for starting the thread
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    I would go U2 against every single character for a while, just because landing crane U2 on a baited opponent feels damn good. I just forget them along with Oga when the opponent's playstyle is block.

    In vanilla, I used to use crane j.LK and j.LP quite a lot as an air-2-air against floaty jumps like Chun. But now, I usually use mantis j.LP or j.MP on air fight.


    As for crane c.LK hit confirm , mantis c.LP -> crane s.LP xx c.LK or something similar would be better. mantis s.MP pushes a bit too much for it to work reliably on non-blank range IMO, and I don't like 1-frame links.

    Btw, what do you guys use the most as a jump-in or a follow-up of a neutral jump? It is usually unsafe to do this, but doing it rarely can catch people by surprise. I usually use crane j.MP as a jump-in due to its high damage, hitbox and comboability into c.MP -> Roll (but you need to combo roll late), and crane nj.MP or nj.HK depending on whether the opponents is standing or crouching.
    XBL: street121
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  • WarlikeWarlike 元最強です。 Joined: Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭
    Usually I would go for crane j.hk >c.mp> HP roll simply because it's his strongest combo. Unless I play a grappler such as T'hawk and Gief due to their ability to 360 the roll (well, if not all hits connect) on block, too risky. I also use crane j.hk >mantis s.mp> mk hands alot.

    Crane j.mp has a great active hitbox indeed.
    PSN: indico
    SF4AE: Gen | SF3OE: Akuma
  • tha messiahtha messiah Team Cranis Style Joined: Posts: 1,902
    I would go U2 against every single character for a while, just because landing crane U2 on a baited opponent feels damn good. I just forget them along with Oga when the opponent's playstyle is block.

    In vanilla, I used to use crane j.LK and j.LP quite a lot as an air-2-air against floaty jumps like Chun. But now, I usually use mantis j.LP or j.MP on air fight.


    As for crane c.LK hit confirm , mantis c.LP -> crane s.LP xx c.LK or something similar would be better. mantis s.MP pushes a bit too much for it to work reliably on non-blank range IMO, and I don't like 1-frame links.

    Btw, what do you guys use the most as a jump-in or a follow-up of a neutral jump? It is usually unsafe to do this, but doing it rarely can catch people by surprise. I usually use crane j.MP as a jump-in due to its high damage, hitbox and comboability into c.MP -> Roll (but you need to combo roll late), and crane j.MP or j.HK depending on whether the opponents is standing or crouching.

    Anytime I use Crane U2 and crouch fierce AA players stop once I have it. I've had one player not.

    For Gief and Thawk I like to use the j.HK, c.mp, roll vs them vary rarely do I mess that up.

    I think Crane j.MK, Mantis, s.MP is the way to go for now depending on if it's a character that should be knocking down all the time, like guile.
    S3: Gouki
    SFIV: Gouki, Gen
    SSFIV AE: Gen, Gouki, Dan, Rose

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  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    as a matter of fact, i tried to use crane j.hp much more. and here is the news: it's awzum. if used early enough it will beat most air attacks or at least trade (which is most likely in gen's favor unless the opponent's was also a hard attack). even as jump in it's quite good (tho, follow up is limited) c.lp, throw or dash on block, c.lk or s.hk on hit. i can't accustom myself to change stance after landing. happend alot that it fails (due to known reasons...). but if i go for it, it does more damage over all than 2x. j.hk (since j.hk counts as 2 attack, next attack is reduced to 80% and followup even further). j.hk is good vs a late jump in (when u jump into their jump arc) or vs focus attacks.

    for neutral jump i use j.mk the most, it has the biggest hitbox and can catch some dashes aswell.

    if both neutral jump, j.lk kicks balls ^^
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  • ZarukaZaruka the Fool Joined: Posts: 856
    here a good question to ask everyone, i was thinking of this while i was in training mode. if capcom ever fix the landing glitch would that open more options for the old man or most at least more mix up potential.

    like say you got a opponent who likes to turtle, you get him in the air with a reset switch with a mantis normal then switch to crane in the air and do his overhead for a mixup.

    i dont know just a random thought that i had.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ZarukaFu?feature=mhee my youtube account for all your scrub viewing needs. now you can watch me live with http://www.twitch.tv/zaruka.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    another awzum little thing would be if u can change stance while crane roll and then cancel one hit into mantis super. atm u can only super cancel with crane ultra, since u are considered crane stance for the duration of the move.

    in general i think stance swtich alone is enough "challenge", why it has to be unsafe?
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  • tha messiahtha messiah Team Cranis Style Joined: Posts: 1,902
    as a matter of fact, i tried to use crane j.hp much more. and here is the news: it's awzum. if used early enough it will beat most air attacks or at least trade (which is most likely in gen's favor unless the opponent's was also a hard attack). even as jump in it's quite good (tho, follow up is limited) c.lp, throw or dash on block, c.lk or s.hk on hit. i can't accustom myself to change stance after landing. happend alot that it fails (due to known reasons...). but if i go for it, it does more damage over all than 2x. j.hk (since j.hk counts as 2 attack, next attack is reduced to 80% and followup even further). j.hk is good vs a late jump in (when u jump into their jump arc) or vs focus attacks.

    for neutral jump i use j.mk the most, it has the biggest hitbox and can catch some dashes aswell.

    if both neutral jump, j.lk kicks balls ^^

    If you watch my videos you will see I use Crane j.HP all the time. It's awesome to jump over guiles Booms because if you use HK your butt with hit the boom. Also I find it stuffs more than the HK for air to ground
    S3: Gouki
    SFIV: Gouki, Gen
    SSFIV AE: Gen, Gouki, Dan, Rose

    http://www.youtube.com/user/whosnkn
  • rez4frederickrez4frederick Gen or E honda Fei Joined: Posts: 79
    I love the Crane U2, but yes it does get beat out alot. For example, Vegas Ex backflip kick straight up beats it, no trade, just beats it. But I love it cause the other player doesn't expect it and its great when you catch them with it when they are on the way down in the air or when you can get it to crossup. The Mantis U2, i dunno, its great, but I find its hard to connect it. The input sucks for it and I hate how it trades with other ultras, it seems like it should beat other ultras since its a "special" ultra.

    I do love crane j.mp too.

    I also wish that you could combo out of Crane j.HK x 2 instead of just hitting em twice and then waiting for them to get back up. Seems stupid you can't combo after that since other characters i.e. Akuma, can dp you when you are about to hit the ground on that tatsu combo after taking about 5 hits.

    Also, why the fuck is it so hard to Crane U1 out of a gekiro. Its easy to get the crane super, but its like impossible to do the Ultra. It would be such a good link to have available, sure it will scale some, but it would be a nice tool.
  • BronzefistBronzefist Spews random garbage Joined: Posts: 1,570
    I have stopped using the U2 set completely, even in matchups against FBers. His old ultras just have way too many setups for me to ignore, and better guaranteed damage as well.

    How do you guys successfully combo in Mantis after landing a Crane j.mk? What attacks do you use after the Crane j.mk hits? The best I can do is combo into his jab/short in Mantis. I can never land mantis st.mp because of the stance change glitch (I presume). Is there a trick to it?

    Has anyone else developed a really bad habit of backdashing all the time? I really need to chill out with that shit. Luckily the average online player doesn't know about options selects, but against good comp I get punished hard via OS or something else. The sad thing is that SRK mash-happy SF4 pretty much conditioned me to backdash so much, because I got really fucking tired eating mashed SRKs if my jump in was timed a little too early or my timing was off on a block string. I also hate blocking the SRK-->FADC which gives them frame advantage. :/ So I developed a habit of backdashing after blocked jumpins and some block strings. Thankfully Gen has a fucking great backdash though, and if I backdash after the opponent blocks my jumpin that often makes them jump after me in return--that's where I take a few steps forward and tag them with crane cr.hk.

    Crane cr.hk is the shit. I said it in other topics, but it's my #1 anti air by far. It's really fucking good when you've dominated someone enough in footsies because alot of players get frustrated and jump towards you. Also it's really good for surrendering space and giving your opponent a false sense that you are backing off. Since crane has such a fast walk speed you can back up a few steps (where you would be outside of their jump in range), see them jump, and then walk forward a few steps to AA them. It works really well when you get the opponent cornered. Crane cr.mp is great in footsies now. Is is relatively fast (5 frames), has good range and stuff alot of crap on the ground. Plus is much more safe than in vanilla. Definitely use it more if you havent.

    Finally, WHAT'S YOU FAVORITE COLOR FOR GEN? Yea I said it. Mine is #7 (the dark green). Shit is too stylin.
    THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A FIGHT TO THE DEATH...
    MvC3: She Hulk, Thor, Hulk, Haggar lariat assist, Arthur dagger assist
    SSF4: Gen, Makoto, Adon...all at scrub level :sad:
  • WarlikeWarlike 元最強です。 Joined: Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭
    Fucking pink Gen all the way, PEOPLE GET MAD CUZ IM STYLIN ON THEM

    Seriously though, I backdash way too much aswell. I got punished for it badly today against a Ryu that spotted that habit and did his ultra as I backdashed :(
    PSN: indico
    SF4AE: Gen | SF3OE: Akuma
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    yeah i usually be alot more time in crane than in mantis during footsie / zoning. despite hands, crane suffer nothing. c.hk is really good anti air if u get the timing down. tho, it requires alot of experience. this move needs more active frames! :D
    crane c.mp as poke is really good. and in combination with hp roll a good punisher.
    c.lp is also usefull. it's imo by far his best frame trap.
    and crabe s.mp + s.hp is really good as mixup.

    i usually go for black as color. if i play mirror and he uses black (as player 1) than i go for white. need to check his 3rd costum while playing, dont have the package yet.
    我道
  • Neo0MJNeo0MJ You are a big fool! Joined: Posts: 330
    Fucking pink Gen all the way, PEOPLE GET MAD CUZ IM STYLIN ON THEM

    Totally! Pink all the way. I use that color with all my character, no homo.
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    For crane j.MK combo, I'm into a habit of doing s.LP xx c.LK -> Sweep if hit, and s.LP xx c.LP if blocked. But I'm doing more MP MK hands than before.

    I found out that I'm backdashing almost every time I get knocked down. One of a hundred bad habits that reside within my gameplay.

    I'm always colour #4 or #12, with taunt #6 or #7.
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    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    good point: taunting time! which is the best? i use #4 / #5 - has some nice "I'm an old chinese martial artist! Be aware!" style in it xD

    #6 is way too long =/
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  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 6,936 ✭✭✭✭
    i honestly don't think gen is all that bad. but damn, when you compare him to akuma. akuma easily trumps what his has.

    one thing i really dont get is why does akuma have possibly the best teleport in the game yet gens ex oga doesnt go thru strikes anymore AND it takes a bar. akumas dp comes out much faster and more invincible. akuma has better normals and better combos too. gens have more reach overall, but akumas comes out much faster.

    but enough complaining. i dont think gen is bad. his main tools got weakened from sf4 (low jump mantis, mk xx hands, meter building, ex oga) but everything else is better. he might not get back his alpha chains, but he has a lot of links in mantis stance.

    his ground crane normals which were pretty bad in sf4 got totally revamped. c.mk going under most fireballs is nice. c.mp doesnt get you killed on block is also nice. and his standing mp overhead. its pretty decent now.

    i love his u2s. mantis reversal u2 is not bad vs fireball strings. crane u2 is very nice. he controls the air even more. its not bad for an air to air but sometimes it whiffs. once u have u2, you can pretty much train your opponent to stop pressing buttons to hit gen out of the air or jumping at him.

    his oga is unsafe if done extremely deep, but you can make it safe by learning the distances. since its faster now, its easier to catch fidgeting opponents. you can tack on both his u1 and both supers after a successful oga. with no meter, his gekiro is pretty much guaranteed or a sweep, which both leads to an untechable knockdown (not too sure about a completed gekiro tho)

    my fav gen colors are black, default and light blue. dark shirtless gen is awesome too.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • BronzefistBronzefist Spews random garbage Joined: Posts: 1,570
    Yea I should add that I backdash way too much on wakeup as well. I'm pretty spoiled when it comes to characters with good backdashes since I played Gen & Chun in vanilla. I'm playing Makoto as well who also has a great backdash. I mess around with Adon a little but his sucks :x

    I really dont think Gen is that bad either when compared to the rest of the cast. His improvements in Crane (st.mp, st.hp, cr.mp) have been VERY nice for me. I can now comfortably poke with cr.mp and not worry about eating an SRK or super ON HIT. That shit made me rage so much in the early days of vanilla. mk xx hands as a footsies tool is still extremely effective. Mk still has very respectable range, it's fast, and the entire string is great for stuffing FAs. Once you get the opponent afraid of FAing you, you can use his longer range pokes like mantis cr.hp. I also love the buff to Gekiro and that fact that it's FINALLY immune to throws. There were a ton of situations in vanilla where I knew a throw was coming (like after a blocked FA) but my only option was to attempt to tech it. The new Gekrio lets me punish the opponent if I guess correctly. It's also great on wakeup as a "get off me" move. I thought the loss of EX Oga would destroy Gen defensively, but it hasn't turned out as bad as I anticipated. The worst thing about Gekiro is that it can be safe jumped.

    It recently occurred to me that I wasn't using mantis cr.hk in footsies enough. Granted its stupidly punishable in the opponent anticipates it, but it's fucking awesome when used sparingly. The range is ridiculous and I catch soooooo many people that don't expect to be swept from that far.

    Finally I cant wait until his new outfit is officially released. I'm gonna rock that shit all day. For taunts I actually like #1 and #8. With #8 he turns his back and says "Come to me!" It's definitely an appropriate taunt when fighting some turtle ass Rog/Blanka/Honda.
    THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A FIGHT TO THE DEATH...
    MvC3: She Hulk, Thor, Hulk, Haggar lariat assist, Arthur dagger assist
    SSF4: Gen, Makoto, Adon...all at scrub level :sad:
  • ZarukaZaruka the Fool Joined: Posts: 856
    yea i love his new alt costume. but for the regular costumes i use normal green and red. i dont use his other alt costume even tho it bad ass. even tho i like his crane ultra 2, mantis ultra 2 while bad ass just a waste of ultra in my view. rather have a ultra that does damage then just have them heal it.
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  • KatrianaKatriana Suffer and die... Joined: Posts: 367
    Finally, WHAT'S YOU FAVORITE COLOR FOR GEN? Yea I said it. Mine is #7 (the dark green). Shit is too stylin.

    I use his first alternate costume, in white.

    I really dont think Gen is that bad either when compared to the rest of the cast.

    Well where do you think he places relatively? He's not awful like a lot of people here like to exaggerate, but I still think he places damn low overall.
    SSF4:Claw, Juri.
    3s: Ibuki, a little Urien ST: Hawk T6: Lei
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    What's an effective way to deal with Rose's U2? Last night I had a set of about 22 matches with a Rose player, and although it was 17-5 to me, his U2 gave me vast amounts of grief. It seems Gen has literally no way of preventing himself from eating the ultra. Everything I tried resulted in me getting hit.
  • WarlikeWarlike 元最強です。 Joined: Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭
    Block low?

    If she uses her ultra randomly (It's better used for a combo) just block low. Her shenanigans usually include sliding to hit you and consequently her ultra, or crossing up at which point you'd have to block whichever side she is on at the moment. I mean what is she going to do else? She has no overhead or anything. If you're feeling lucky you can try to do a normal attack in between her orbs to completely shut down her ultra, or throw if she's next to you on start up.
    PSN: indico
    SF4AE: Gen | SF3OE: Akuma
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 20,835 admin
    Okay I get that you can block it, but then all she really needs to do is zone me out with SS's. If i try to neutral jump one she'll dash in and get me with the ultra, and if I try to focus absorb them she usually spaces it in a way where she can poke me out of it (again making me eat the ultra). There seems to me no surefire way to escape this if the Rose player has any idea what they're doing at all. I don't know how long her ultra lasts, but it seems all I can do is turtle and wait it out.
  • WarlikeWarlike 元最強です。 Joined: Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭
    It lasts 10 seconds I think, not sure.

    So what if she zones you out? Again, just block. There isn't much more to it then blocking and maybe try to poke her through the orbs if that oppertunity presents itself.
    PSN: indico
    SF4AE: Gen | SF3OE: Akuma
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 6,936 ✭✭✭✭
    I use his first alternate costume, in white.




    Well where do you think he places relatively? He's not awful like a lot of people here like to exaggerate, but I still think he places damn low overall.

    excuse my grammer since i',m a bit buzzed now. maybe i'll edit the post in the morining when i awke up.

    but yeah, heres what i think. hes easier to use in ssf4 compared to sf4 but harder to win with compared to his sf4 version. almost all his matches got harder, but its much easier to land big damage right now with meter compared to sf4 where you need to rely on mk xx hands x2 fadc into mk xx hands x2 again.

    as to where hes ranked, i think hes around kens level which is about mid. like ken, hes good all around but nothing overpowering or too good to catipault him to the top tier or severely lacking in anything tto be bottom tier. but of course there has to be someone thats low tier and unfortunately its him.

    hes the most revamped character in ssf4. as i saidf before, his main tools has gotten weakened (ex oga, low jump mantis, mk xx hands x2, mk range and meter building) but everything else has improved (crane normals, hit confirmable hands xx super, damage and/or speed increase on his supers, etc. but all these changes werent enough to make up for his main tools in sf4, therefore hes slightly weaker than he was in sf4, while pretty much every character has gotten better minus the top tiers and gouken.

    almost all the characters he has an advantage against or went even with has improve vastly compared to him. ex: abel, chun, guile

    given his high learning curve, shitty stamina and mediocre damage output without meter, its easy to see why people ranked him low. i think hes just as good as adon, guy, ken, t hawk, etc. definitely C rank which is pretty7 much mid tier.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • ZarukaZaruka the Fool Joined: Posts: 856

    given his high learning curve, shitty stamina and mediocre damage output without meter, its easy to see why people ranked him low. i think hes just as good as adon, guy, ken, t hawk, etc. definitely C rank which is pretty7 much mid tier.

    that the thing even with his high learning curve (damn you piano masters) hehe. i feel at home using gen more then any other character in street fighter 4. even more then ibuki who i love in 3rd strike. that why it been so hard to try to learn anyone else because i had the most fun playing with gen and i be damned that what i learn from him goes to waste.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ZarukaFu?feature=mhee my youtube account for all your scrub viewing needs. now you can watch me live with http://www.twitch.tv/zaruka.
  • WarlikeWarlike 元最強です。 Joined: Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭
    He's definately low mid tier, or low tier.

    Basically every character he had an even match with has gotten improved (fucking Guile..) and he got slightly worse. As Ouroborus said he's easier to use in this version yet there is hardly any reward. In vanilla if you mastered mk hands mk hands fadc mk hands mk hands you'd have a great rewarding experience with Gen aswell as an escape tool (ex Oga).
    In SSFIV you still have a single mk hands, the ability to hitconfirm super with hands (if you even have the chance to get your super), and some improved normals (although mk range is less, wtf Capcom?). It just doesn't compensate unfortunately. The only good thing is that you are forced to learn to play footsies well with Gen, although that's hardly a real advantage considering his weaknesses.

    @Zaruka,

    I had the same problem, letting him go sucks due to the work you've put in. I still managed to switch though by just making Gen my secondary. That way I don't feel like I'm wasting him.
    PSN: indico
    SF4AE: Gen | SF3OE: Akuma
  • ZarukaZaruka the Fool Joined: Posts: 856
    yea that the thing i still want to learn how to piano as it would help my execution and speed overall and the only one who has something like gen is e honda which may be easier to piano for me since it hitting the mk with my thumb always feels weird to me. it just sucks, i had mk hands mk hands as a goal that once i gotten down i knew i have gotten better i just dont have my big goal anymore haha.

    tell you one thing tho i just made a gief rage quit muahha even a weaker gen plus my scrubby execution is still enough to beat the mash 3 buttons gief muaha. drop down oga for the win, and plus guess right helps too. first rage quit for me in super haha.

    man do i need to play more local haha online fun but not as fun as local gatherings.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ZarukaFu?feature=mhee my youtube account for all your scrub viewing needs. now you can watch me live with http://www.twitch.tv/zaruka.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    but its much easier to land big damage right now with meter compared to sf4 where you need to rely on mk xx hands x2 fadc into mk xx hands x2 again.
    really? "big damage with meter now"? did i missed something? ^^
    as to where hes ranked, i think hes around kens level which is about mid. like ken, hes good all around but nothing overpowering or too good to catipault him to the top tier or severely lacking in anything tto be bottom tier. but of course there has to be someone thats low tier and unfortunately its him.

    he's definetly not mid tier. he IS placed at the bottom (doesnt make him bad tho, but if you count the match ups, u'll see that gen has NO match in his favor. 5-5 is the best he get, and in ssf4 he has way more 4-6 and one or two more 7-3 matchups.

    again: saying that he's low tier doesnt make him worse (nor saying that he's midtier making him any better, ppl tend to believe that). just for the record.

    Gen lacks a good zoning tool to deal with fireball spammers. the only good way to close in would be oga, sadly - it's unsave. other characters have various ways to close in.
    in footsies he lacks an outstanding poke. imo mk should be like bisons s.mk or zangiefs s.mp.
    in defense situations all we have is the unsafest revearsal in the game. (tho, we can't get comboed into it, since he's airborne state.)
    ...
    gen became a CLOSE CLOSE CLOSE RANGE fighter who has low stamina, low stun, low unrewarding damage at a high risk.
    he feels alot like blanka imo. you've "noobcrusher" moves (and even then you've to work) like oga. but once known - they become nearly useless. blankafactor.
    he lacks constant tools to deal with every character / situation. for instance your mentioned ken. he has GREATcombo potencial, does big damage, has a really good range poke, no low health / stun, good anti air, and for zoning a fireball. even on mid range c.mk => hado stuff any gen normal.
    hes the most revamped character in ssf4. as i saidf before, his main tools has gotten weakened (ex oga, low jump mantis, mk xx hands x2, mk range and meter building) but everything else has improved (crane normals, hit confirmable hands xx super, damage and/or speed increase on his supers, etc. but all these changes werent enough to make up for his main tools in sf4, therefore hes slightly weaker than he was in sf4, while pretty much every character has gotten better minus the top tiers and gouken.
    almost all the characters he has an advantage against or went even with has improve vastly compared to him. ex: abel, chun, guile

    given his high learning curve, shitty stamina and mediocre damage output without meter

    you give yourself enough reason to see what's going on^^


    BTW: chun and blanka also have piano moves, not only gen and honda @ above me.

    I've an idea. why dont we make a matchup chart?

    e.g this is how mine would look compared to the sf4 table: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

    (order is copied, no tierlist intended)
    SAGAT 7-3
    RYU 6-4
    AKUMA 6-4
    BALROG 6-4
    RUFUS 5-5
    ZANGIEF 7-3
    CHUN-LI 6-4
    SETH 6-4
    BLANKA 5-5
    M. BISON 6-4
    C. VIPER 6-4
    ABEL 6-4
    E. HONDA 7-3
    GOUKEN 5-5
    KEN 6-4
    ROSE 5-5
    DHALSIM 5-5
    FEI LONG 4-6
    CAMMY 5-5
    SAKURA 4-6
    EL FUERTE 5-5
    GUILE 7-3
    GEN -
    VEGA 5-5
    DAN 5-5

    Total: 101 compared to 108 from vanilla.
    He got better vs: Blanka (quite unsure, but c.hk makes things easier) and Rufus (ex gekiro rulz vs him)
    And his matchup got worse vs: Sagat (jump arc), Chun (she just got better), Viper (ex oga is missing), Abel (ex oga is missing), Ken (he got better, dmg is huge, zoning improved) and much more worse vs Guile (doesnt need any explanation imo) and Honda (better AA, and really, 1-2 hits n u'r dead. most underrated char imo)

    Imo for Super Characters:
    Cody 4-6
    Adon 5-5
    T.Hawk 5-5
    Dee Jay 4-6
    Juri 4-6
    Hakan 6-4
    Dudley 5-5
    Makoto 6-4
    Ibuki 4-6


    keep in mind. everything is subjective and merely for discussion purpose, not selling it as a fact or anything.
    我道
  • ZarukaZaruka the Fool Joined: Posts: 856
    yea i think im going to go with somone else as my main. vanilla gen was like okay i have to work twice as hard for the same amount of damage np i can handle that. now he like okay i have to work twice as hard for half the damage they are doing yea im done.

    zUkUu yea i know chun and blanka have piano move but i hate them so im either going with honda ibuki or akuma. might use honda because i play in hdr and it will help me be wait for the right moment to attack. so im thinking honda my main with ibuki akuma and gen as second.

    sry guys but he not worth the frustration i get from playing him anymore. when a sagat takes a big chunk of my heath from a grab and i have to do about 2 combos to do the same to him is stupid.

    still sucks tho gen my favorite street fighter character even more so then ibuki who i started playing street fighter with. i still help out as much as i can in here but im going to start looking a honda stuff.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ZarukaFu?feature=mhee my youtube account for all your scrub viewing needs. now you can watch me live with http://www.twitch.tv/zaruka.
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    you know what i hate?, when ive been blocking in crane, and i walk foward to poke with cr.mp, and i get a roll.

    or when i forget which stance im in, and i either try to sweep a jump in mantis, or i try to 37 frame crouch fierce a jump in, in crane
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • WarlikeWarlike 元最強です。 Joined: Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭
    I sometimes forget what stance I'm in and try to sweep and get crane c.hk too, so horrible :chat:
    PSN: indico
    SF4AE: Gen | SF3OE: Akuma
  • Neo0MJNeo0MJ You are a big fool! Joined: Posts: 330
    I sometimes forget what stance I'm in and try to sweep and get crane c.hk too, so horrible :chat:

    Worst thing that happens to me. Sometimes I get lucky and actually hit the opponent, but even then you'll still be punished:crybaby:.
  • BronzefistBronzefist Spews random garbage Joined: Posts: 1,570
    I'd say he's low-mid tier at worst. Quite frankly I dont care, as I currently dont have a matchup that makes me think "this shit is impossible." I actually think his matchup against Sagat got better since vanilla. I fucking HATED fighting Sagat in vanilla because of his ridiculous zoning, damage and health. One small mistake and you're eating his lolcombo for 70% of your health. Fuck that bullshit. The Gen-Sagat match is much more tolerable now. He can still zone you like a bitch, but his damage is nowhere near as bad. I still think that Honda and Sim wreck Gen pretty bad though. If there is anyone that beats Gen 7-3 they should be at the top IMHO.
    THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A FIGHT TO THE DEATH...
    MvC3: She Hulk, Thor, Hulk, Haggar lariat assist, Arthur dagger assist
    SSF4: Gen, Makoto, Adon...all at scrub level :sad:
  • KatrianaKatriana Suffer and die... Joined: Posts: 367
    The only good thing is that you are forced to learn to play footsies well with Gen, although that's hardly a real advantage considering his weaknesses

    That's not any sort of advantage though, because that's a result of his nerfs, not buffs. It's in the same vein as "The good thing about Seth is that you have to learn to never ever ever let yourself get hit by anything"

    I think that's enough complaining though, weird nerfs, but we're here to learn and adapt, not simply complain.

    I sometimes forget what stance I'm in and try to sweep and get crane c.hk too, so horrible

    And that's why alt 1 costume is so beautiful! You look stylish and it's impossible to not know what stance you're in >_>
    SSF4:Claw, Juri.
    3s: Ibuki, a little Urien ST: Hawk T6: Lei
  • WarlikeWarlike 元最強です。 Joined: Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭
    Good job saying exactly what I've already stated.. 'although that's hardly an advantage'

    And I can complain if I want, at the same time I am researching matchup specific information and updating the shenanigans thread aswell.
    PSN: indico
    SF4AE: Gen | SF3OE: Akuma
  • Neo0MJNeo0MJ You are a big fool! Joined: Posts: 330
    And that's why alt 1 costume is so beautiful! You look stylish and it's impossible to not know what stance you're in >_>

    But some say it's bad to expose the style you are using. Can someone explain that?
  • WarlikeWarlike 元最強です。 Joined: Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭
    The mask changes colours depending on what stance you are in.
    PSN: indico
    SF4AE: Gen | SF3OE: Akuma
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But some say it's bad to expose the style you are using. Can someone explain that?

    gives the opponent a heads up as to whats available to you. speaking of costumes, anyone know when alt 3 is gonna hit xbl
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    saldy, it's the last costum pack =/
    it was available as preorder package, tho.

    June 29: Super Classic Pack (Guile, Blanka, Dhalsim, Gen, Fei Long)
    我道
  • Neo0MJNeo0MJ You are a big fool! Joined: Posts: 330
    gives the opponent a heads up as to whats available to you. speaking of costumes, anyone know when alt 3 is gonna hit xbl

    Yeah, but isn't that what just about any other character suffers from?
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yeah. i dont see it as that big of a deal because i switch styles all the time (too many to try and track), but one could argue that with a character as diverse as gen, you put youself in a more favorable position if they dont know when you have your best poke/anti air/etc immediately ready to use
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • tha messiahtha messiah Team Cranis Style Joined: Posts: 1,902
    How do you guys successfully combo in Mantis after landing a Crane j.mk? What attacks do you use after the Crane j.mk hits? The best I can do is combo into his jab/short in Mantis. I can never land mantis st.mp because of the stance change glitch (I presume). Is there a trick to it?

    You have to wait there is a bit of delay, then use Mantis s.MP I nail it all the time. Same when landing Crane j.HP
    S3: Gouki
    SFIV: Gouki, Gen
    SSFIV AE: Gen, Gouki, Dan, Rose

    http://www.youtube.com/user/whosnkn
  • street11street11 Joined: Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭✭
    I previously got a match win with an EX roll against dashing in rose with her U2 on, and I think I was able to escape Viper's cross-up burning kicks pressure with EX Oga, like twice. I'm thinking wtf here, could anybody enlighten me on this?

    I'm going to have to see how tournament mode is going to turn out next week.
    XBL: street121
    PSN: street121 (Can), hooperbel, hoop121 (U)
    "...by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    ground slide move escape vegas burning kick entierly. rose / sim / cody etc as a matter of fact, it seems gen's roll has the very same properties like a slide due to his small hit box. (burning kick hits at a certain height.)
    我道
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 6,936 ✭✭✭✭
    really? "big damage with meter now"? did i missed something? ^^


    mk xx hands hit confirm into super into followup. its much easier to do against someone like ryu compared to his mk xx hands x2 fadc.
    he's definetly not mid tier. he IS placed at the bottom (doesnt make him bad tho, but if you count the match ups, u'll see that gen has NO match in his favor. 5-5 is the best he get, and in ssf4 he has way more 4-6 and one or two more 7-3 matchups.

    neither does adon, ken, t hawk, cody, rose, guy, etc.

    they have a bunch of 5-5 matches across the board (except t hawk, but he has a couple lopsided matches) yet they can still do pretty well.

    sagat and gief is definitely not 7-3, especially how they got nerfed the hardest.

    again: saying that he's low tier doesnt make him worse (nor saying that he's midtier making him any better, ppl tend to believe that). just for the record.

    Gen lacks a good zoning tool to deal with fireball spammers. the only good way to close in would be oga, sadly - it's unsave. other characters have various ways to close in.
    in footsies he lacks an outstanding poke. imo mk should be like bisons s.mk or zangiefs s.mp.

    you have the one of the fastest walk speeds in the game and standing mk (xx hands), mantis c.hp, crane c.mk is good vs fireballs. he still has his ridiculously long focus attack.

    gens standing mk is just as good if not better than bisons standing mk. it comes out faster than bisons and most importantly bufferable into hands, but has more recovery overall.


    in defense situations all we have is the unsafest revearsal in the game. (tho, we can't get comboed into it, since he's airborne state.)

    its still better than what some character has along with a really good back dash

    ...
    gen became a CLOSE CLOSE CLOSE RANGE fighter who has low stamina, low stun, low unrewarding damage at a high risk.
    he feels alot like blanka imo. you've "noobcrusher" moves (and even then you've to work) like oga. but once known - they become nearly useless. blankafactor.
    he lacks constant tools to deal with every character / situation. for instance your mentioned ken. he has GREATcombo potencial, does big damage, has a really good range poke, no low health / stun, good anti air, and for zoning a fireball. even on mid range c.mk => hado stuff any gen normal.

    really? i dont see this "great combo potential" nor "big damage" with ken. gens pokes are just as good. same with his anti airs (maybe slighly weaker but still gets the job done)

    you give yourself enough reason to see what's going on^^

    yes and i still don't see how hes weaker than everyone else. like i said before, they weakened what made him good in sf4, but made everything else better.

    his fundamentals haven't changed. mk xx hands still works. its just that it isn't worth it to fadc after it anymore. ex oga is nerfed but gekiro buff is huge. now you can actually interrupt opponents on the ground with lk and ex gekiro. its not foolproof but still really good compared to his sf4 version.

    low jump being gone is easily his biggest nerf. guess we'll just have to find out how to use his new jump arc.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
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