Abel Beginner Thread: "It takes more than brute strength..."

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  • KenchirotaKenchirota Joined: Posts: 3
    Hmmm, I am new to this, so please bear with me. In the guide you stated:

    "If the last hit is a punch, Abel grabs the opponent and throws them behind him. This is not actually a grab, despite the animation. Therefore, this attack can be blocked both high and low."

    But you have to block the punch finish high or you get tossed. I learned the hard way sadly...
  • KenchirotaKenchirota Joined: Posts: 3
    Hmmm, I am new to this, so please bear with me. In the guide you stated:

    "If the last hit is a punch, Abel grabs the opponent and throws them behind him. This is not actually a grab, despite the animation. Therefore, this attack can be blocked both high and low."

    But you have to block the punch finish high or you get tossed. I learned the hard way sadly...
  • xcalibur798xcalibur798 Known as xcalibear Joined: Posts: 129
    I think it's much more safe to dash once, hit with a cr.lp, cr.fp, etc and then start your mixup from there. Plus it can mess with the player with the ridiculous amount of time you sit there waiting to start the mixup. Sometimes giving the player too much time to think is a dangerous thing in your favor too. :D

    Not at all. The reason you roll rather than dash is to make the opponent guess which side you're going to end up on and force them to into a difficult situation where the advantage is yours completely. A cr.mk > medium roll is truly ambiguous and you recover in time to cr.lp and beat out everything except for reversals. If you can lead that cr. lp into a knockdown through a combo or tick throw, you control the match entirely since all hard knockdowns could potentially lead into more damage and knockdowns for abel. If you just dash, your opponent can easily react to what you're doing.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Hmmm, I am new to this, so please bear with me. In the guide you stated:

    "If the last hit is a punch, Abel grabs the opponent and throws them behind him. This is not actually a grab, despite the animation. Therefore, this attack can be blocked both high and low."

    But you have to block the punch finish high or you get tossed. I learned the hard way sadly...

    When performing CoD:

    First Hit: High or Low

    2nd :p:: High (acts as an overhead)
    2nd :k:: Low

    3rd :p:: High or Low (not a grapple)
    3rd :k:: Low (not a grapple)

    I hope that elaborates a bit.
  • HFXHFX SMYA Joined: Posts: 4,747
    3rd :p:: High or Low (not a grapple)

    except thats not true.

    Finish middle has to be blocked High.

    Check your data first before posting yo, thats basic stuff.
    Malaysia / Kuching FGC | Twitter @ abelity_ | Facebook @ facebook.com/showmeyourabelity | Youtube @ youtube.com/c/ShowMeYourAbelity
  • DaDesiCanadianDaDesiCanadian orangecat av! Joined: Posts: 6,901
    Fantastic thread, i'm linking it in the FAQ thread.
    Originally Posted by Mihai
    LOL Also, 99% implies there are at least 100 people that know me you tard. You really should invest in a proper education instead of being a bum.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    except thats not true.

    Finish middle has to be blocked High.

    Check your data first before posting yo, thats basic stuff.

    Really? Fixing, then.

    The only move that I do not have hit-box damage for is CoD. Well, I don't have wheel kick, either. Wish I did; hit-box of it intrigues me.
  • Kelter SkelterKelter Skelter the kelly skelly Joined: Posts: 2,844
    You should mention that c.hp, lk roll, mp falling sky is what you should use on characters where HP falling sky will whiff
    GRFGC.com - FGC in Grand Rapids, MI
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    You should mention that c.hp, lk roll, mp falling sky is what you should use on characters where HP falling sky will whiff

    I'm making a list right now of that, actually. Here's the list:
    Abel: :hp:
    Adon: :hp:
    Akuma: :mp:
    Balrog: :hp: (mk roll also worked, lol.)
    Blanka: :hp:
    C. Viper: :hp:
    Cammy: :mp:
    Chun Li: :hp:
    Cody: :hp:
    Dan: :hp:
    Dee Jay: :hp:
    Dhalsim: :mp:
    Dudley: :hp:
    E. Honda: :hp:
    El Fuerte: :mp:
    Fei Long: :mp:
    Gen: :hp:
    Gouken: :hp:
    Guile: :hp:
    Guy: :mp:
    Hakan: :hp:
    Ibuki: :mp:
    Juri: :hp:
    Ken: :hp:
    M. Bison: :hp:
    Makato: :mp:
    Rose: :mp:
    Rufus: :hp:
    Ryu: :hp:
    Sagat: :hp:
    Sakura: :mp:
    Seth: :hp:
    T. Hawk: :hp:
    Vega: :hp:
    Zangief: :hp:
    There may be an error on there (I went relatively quickly, simply because this shit is dull as hell), so if anyone knows I'm wrong on one, just throw it out there.
  • electricelectric Big French Bruiser Joined: Posts: 482
    You should mention that c.hp, lk roll, mp falling sky is what you should use on characters where HP falling sky will whiff

    ... but it isn't

    You should be using cr.hp xx hp falling sky - there's no reason to sacrifice 20 damage unless you're using unsafe cr.hp's that need to be hit confirmed in the first place
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    ... but it isn't

    You should be using cr.hp xx hp falling sky - there's no reason to sacrifice 20 damage unless you're using unsafe cr.hp's that need to be hit confirmed in the first place
    I agree. But, I think it's worth having a list simply because it's worth knowing who cr.hp, lk roll, fierce FS doesn't work on.

    Updates made.
  • Kelter SkelterKelter Skelter the kelly skelly Joined: Posts: 2,844
    I thought mp falling sky was only 10 dmg less than hp but, either way sometimes you need the meter more than the extra 10/20 damage.
    GRFGC.com - FGC in Grand Rapids, MI
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Updated some neutral jumps. But, I have finals to study for.

    I have no idea what to say about his neutral jumps. Lol.
  • HFXHFX SMYA Joined: Posts: 4,747
    Your posts need a lot of fixing, the facts part is decent but when you start adding your own opinions... thats another story... maybe ill pm you when im free on which parts you should remove/correct.. and what to add..
    Malaysia / Kuching FGC | Twitter @ abelity_ | Facebook @ facebook.com/showmeyourabelity | Youtube @ youtube.com/c/ShowMeYourAbelity
  • SillenderSillender run stop short Joined: Posts: 290
    If you always cancel straight into falling sky, it makes it alot more obvious when you go for a roll to a mixup/reset
  • electricelectric Big French Bruiser Joined: Posts: 482
    I thought mp falling sky was only 10 dmg less than hp but, either way sometimes you need the meter more than the extra 10/20 damage.

    Woops - yeah, the damage differential is only 10 - you're right.

    But yeah, I still don't think the 20 meter is worth it. HP falling sky also does 200 stun as opposed to 150 - that makes all the difference when playing a low stun/stamina character like Dhalsim
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Your posts need a lot of fixing, the facts part is decent but when you start adding your own opinions... thats another story... maybe ill pm you when im free on which parts you should remove/correct.. and what to add..
    Please do. I've only been playing Abel for about two or so months. Any help in this just helps me learn Abel.
  • Vital_VenomVital_Venom FINAL SIGMA Joined: Posts: 48
    I have a question what do you do as an abel player when your opponent is breathing down your neck and crossing you up left and right? Just so you all know I feel my abel is still pretty scrubby. That being said I understand abel has AA's like crouching fierce punch or crouching forward. But those do not when the opponent is hovering over and being really aggressive. I can block cross-ups and tech throws for the most part but not for lets say 10 or 15 seconds straight. Since abel does not have a get me out of jail card for free A.K.A. SHORYUKEN. Then what are his options other than rolling to keep opponents from jumping is on you for free? Thanks for the responses guys

    p.s. this was originally posted in the "The Abel F.A.Q: NOW WITH FRAME DATA"
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  • r00ster22r00ster22 Joined: Posts: 3,943
    Abel's defense is blocking for about 10 seconds sometimes depending on the character of course. for instance if you are fighting a very good seth that knows his mixup options it is smart to often just block until you can see a opening to either 1) backdash, 2) EX CoD, or EX roll, 3) crouch tech/standing tech depending on the situation. Patience is your friend when stuck with lots of cross ups learn the match ups and find holes in the players game. If they leave there feet you can ex roll out for free, or roll depending how high in the air they are normal roll. Often the case with abel though is your best defense is a smart offense. By smart I mean find your range so if you see him throw out a limb you can punish or if he jumps you can AA. C.mk is better if they jump farther away, c.HP is better in a shorter arc.

    Practice the AA range and timing C.hp has to be out for a while to get the most out of that AA and c.mk can be canced into roll to start your offense immediately with a mix up. Use your standing lk to poke at them and set up step kick or a AA situation. neutral jumps are best handled by close standing fierce punch which can also be roll canceled into more mix ups. Be patient learn your AA ranges and learn to read the opponent to get out scar free with Abel.
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  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    It's also worth nothing that close st.hp can be used as an AA, but that's not something I'm proficient enough with to explain. EX Falling Sky also is a notable anti-air. Sometimes, it's worth considering even a focus attack. Neutral jumping will work on some characters, but there's just a plethora of answers that you can have there.

    And, I'd like to thank everyone for the support I've been getting. It's helped a lot with this thread, and it's helped me personally. This is my last week of summer courses; I should have some time then to work more on this.
  • InazumaInazuma Winless :( Joined: Posts: 22
    Thanks Dust for all the info and hard work. :)

    Is there a thread or can someone list what Abel's mix-ups are? I really don't know what i should be using on a knock-down. Seems like everytime i try a roll mix-up I mess up something as i get hit hard and then i'm afraid to try any mix-ups at all. I'm usually at a lose on what I can/should do.
    SSFIV - Abel, Seth
  • dood23dood23 Mix-up Amateur Joined: Posts: 106
    Thanks Dust for all the info and hard work. :)

    Is there a thread or can someone list what Abel's mix-ups are? I really don't know what i should be using on a knock-down. Seems like everytime i try a roll mix-up I mess up something as i get hit hard and then i'm afraid to try any mix-ups at all. I'm usually at a lose on what I can/should do.

    oki variation

    https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B7S1JTWz7Q_CYzkwNWUxYzktNmY0YS00MzhhLTk5N2MtOGIzMzgzOWYzMjA1&hl=en&authkey=CPnAyIwG
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Is there a thread or can someone list what Abel's mix-ups are? I really don't know what i should be using on a knock-down. Seems like everytime i try a roll mix-up I mess up something as i get hit hard and then i'm afraid to try any mix-ups at all. I'm usually at a lose on what I can/should do.
    http://shoryuken.com/f250/abel-cr-fp-resets-mindgames-191730/

    I'll be adding these sooner or later. I'm just lazy as hell.
  • InazumaInazuma Winless :( Joined: Posts: 22
    Perfect!

    Thanks dood and Dust!
    SSFIV - Abel, Seth
  • HFXHFX SMYA Joined: Posts: 4,747
    @dust

    1. i noticed you kept using AA cr.hp (1st hit only) --- actually its the 2nd hit of the cr.hp that juggles, 1st hit of cr.hp will just air reset the opponent.

    2. neutral jump lk can also hit behind him a little so this can also be used if someone dashed under you (or summin like cody's wakeup ex zonk)

    3. as for wheel kicks, its punishable but if you can somehow make it that only the tip of the kick was blocked (proper distance), only a few moves can punish it

    4. regarding rolls, maybe need to include that youre vulnerable on the last frame of the roll (except EX)

    5. heartless - you mentioned comboing into it from 1st hit cr.hp. first, you can combo into it plenty of ways (even of a 2 hits cr.hp you can cancel immediately into it).. i guess its the way you wrote "-If you really want to combo into this, you can cancel the first hit of cr.hp into Heartless. " like its the only(and best) option.

    6. soulless - you said its not immune to hits, incorrect. refer frame data

    7. breathless - not just armor breaking moves, multiple hitting moves > breathless too.

    thats all for now i guess..
    Malaysia / Kuching FGC | Twitter @ abelity_ | Facebook @ facebook.com/showmeyourabelity | Youtube @ youtube.com/c/ShowMeYourAbelity
  • sakeidosakeido hose brain Joined: Posts: 3,021
    dunno how specific you want to get but neutral jump lk is gdlk vs. fuerte
    http://www.youtube.com/user/sakeido - X-23 combos, Abel match vids, and the rest
  • Samurai DrewSamurai Drew Joined: Posts: 1,288
    dunno how specific you want to get but neutral jump lk is gdlk vs. fuerte

    How come?
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  • dood23dood23 Mix-up Amateur Joined: Posts: 106
    Maybe it's worth mentioning the properties of the different versions of Heartless.

    Jab: Hit invincible
    Medium: Throw invincible
    Strong: Fireball invincible?
  • Bonkers XIXBonkers XIX Everybody's getting divekicks Joined: Posts: 109
    c.hp xx lk roll xx heartless works on every character, I believe.
    Dunno about AA c.hp (second hit), but I know for a fact this one does if c.hp knocks em up from the ground.
    Skip the roll if in the corner.
    SSF4: Boxer
    MVC3: Wesker/Dante/Magneto
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    @dust

    1. i noticed you kept using AA cr.hp (1st hit only) --- actually its the 2nd hit of the cr.hp that juggles, 1st hit of cr.hp will just air reset the opponent.
    Some of those combos require it, like cr.hp xx fierce CoD. I'll recheck and see which ones don't.

    2. neutral jump lk can also hit behind him a little so this can also be used if someone dashed under you (or summin like cody's wakeup ex zonk)
    Cool stuff; didn't know that. Will add.

    3. as for wheel kicks, its punishable but if you can somehow make it that only the tip of the kick was blocked (proper distance), only a few moves can punish it
    This is one of those things I was iffy about mentioning. This is a beginner's thread. Wheel kick, if spaced properly, can be safe. But, how many newer players can properly space that wheel kick? I sure as hell can't. :/

    4. regarding rolls, maybe need to include that youre vulnerable on the last frame of the roll (except EX)
    Absolutely. I'm not sure if I mentioned all rolls are also vulnerable on the 5th frame and any prior. Will check.

    5. heartless - you mentioned comboing into it from 1st hit cr.hp. first, you can combo into it plenty of ways (even of a 2 hits cr.hp you can cancel immediately into it).. i guess its the way you wrote "-If you really want to combo into this, you can cancel the first hit of cr.hp into Heartless. " like its the only(and best) option.
    This is another of those, "It's a beginner thread," worries. Heartless isn't exactly a great use of Abel's meter, unless it's to secure a win. His meter is just too good. The reason I mentioned 1st hit of cr.hp, rather than 2nd, is because damage scaling happens at the 3rd hit. I'm not sure which does more damage, but I can check.

    6. soulless - you said its not immune to hits, incorrect. refer frame data
    Will do.

    7. breathless - not just armor breaking moves, multiple hitting moves > breathless too.
    Try enough. I wasn't thinking about stuff like Balrog's cr.jab xx super when I wrote this.

    thats all for now i guess..
    Good stuff, hfz. Appreciate it a lot.
    dunno how specific you want to get but neutral jump lk is gdlk vs. fuerte
    I'm not exactly sure where the median of this thread is yet. Some of that stuff needs to be in HAV's matchup thread, rather than this. I think it's worth mentioning that it's exceptional for certain matchups, but I'm not sure how far to go without it being considered match-up data.
    Maybe it's worth mentioning the properties of the different versions of Heartless.

    Jab: Hit invincible
    Medium: Throw invincible
    Strong: Fireball invincible?
    It is. Will do.
    c.hp xx lk roll xx heartless works on every character, I believe.
    Dunno about AA c.hp (second hit), but I know for a fact this one does if c.hp knocks em up from the ground.
    Skip the roll if in the corner.
    Why are you rolling? For meter? If you have Heartless, you already have full meter. 1st hit canceled or both hits of cr.hp do combo into Heartless. But, as I threw up earlier, I'm not sure if I want to include a section about comboing into Heartless.

    So, that comes the question. Should there be a section for combos into Super? I'm almost worried that if I add it, it's almost like saying Heartless is worth holding out on, rather than using FADCs and certain EXes.

    In other news, final is today. I can work on this more. : D
    Thanks for the critiques, guys.
  • SillenderSillender run stop short Joined: Posts: 290
    I think once you get a good understanding of Abel, you'll know how to combo into super on your own. It shouldn't be stressed as one of your main options.
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    If jabs and DPs and throws auto-correct for sides, what are we hoping they do on a wakeup ambiguous roll? Block? Or is the idea to immediately do an EX TT as they wake up if we think they're going to hit a button?

    I just find that every time I ambiguous roll on a wakeup, I'm getting hit out of whatever I try to do. Maybe I'm getting there too slowly, but after TT I'll immediately dash, then LK/MK roll, so unless that's not a safe setup (because it's too slow), I don't think I'm doing it too slow. <shrug>
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  • dood23dood23 Mix-up Amateur Joined: Posts: 106
    So, that comes the question. Should there be a section for combos into Super? I'm almost worried that if I add it, it's almost like saying Heartless is worth holding out on, rather than using FADCs and certain EXes. .

    Maybe if you said "Don't hold out for these" :smokin:. But a combo into a super is still an option, and it's an option that will find it's moments. It just shouldn't be the first option.
    If jabs and DPs and throws auto-correct for sides, what are we hoping they do on a wakeup ambiguous roll? Block? Or is the idea to immediately do an EX TT as they wake up if we think they're going to hit a button?

    I just find that every time I ambiguous roll on a wakeup, I'm getting hit out of whatever I try to do. Maybe I'm getting there too slowly, but after TT I'll immediately dash, then LK/MK roll, so unless that's not a safe setup (because it's too slow), I don't think I'm doing it too slow. <shrug>

    Well, I would think that you're hoping for them to guess wrong, but you also want to use their tendencies against them.
  • MafamaticksMafamaticks Where'd ya life go? Joined: Posts: 779
    If jabs and DPs and throws auto-correct for sides, what are we hoping they do on a wakeup ambiguous roll? Block? Or is the idea to immediately do an EX TT as they wake up if we think they're going to hit a button?

    I just find that every time I ambiguous roll on a wakeup, I'm getting hit out of whatever I try to do. Maybe I'm getting there too slowly, but after TT I'll immediately dash, then LK/MK roll, so unless that's not a safe setup (because it's too slow), I don't think I'm doing it too slow. <shrug>

    I just picked up Abel not too long ago so I'm working out his intricacies. Hopefully the more experienced Abel players can correct me if I'm wrong.

    As far as what you want them to do on an ambiguous roll, it depends.

    TT > dash > lk roll gives you 8 frames. If it's timed right: lk roll into cr. HP should beat out the jab, throw, neutral & jump back since cr. HP has an 8 frame start up. The 2 active frames of the cr. hp should overlap the 3 frame startup of Ryu's jab and anything else they're trying to do. Not to mention cr. lp is just as effective and can hit confirm into either cl. hp or cl. mp. Blocking the right way stops this and reversal SRK trades.

    lk roll into TT beats blocking and throws but it can lose to jabs. TT starts up in 5 frames and has 2 active frames. roll gives you 8 so if you you do frame perfect you'll whiff. Do it one frame later the active frames should overlap the 3 frame jab, netting you the TT. Do it later you can get jabbed out. I've been trying to mash jab out of it in Training mode and i've got thrown more than I've stopped it.. I've only been able to do it if I timed it right and the timing is hard for me to do. So if you have someone under pressure it's a good chance they'll eat the throw. Neutral jumping, jumping back & SRK beat the throw.

    You might be doing the dash and roll properly, but you're waiting too long to press a button. Abel says Excellent(?) when he rolls. If you're doing a grab after a dash and lk roll let him say Excellent. If you're going for a cr. lp or cr. hp don't let him finish the last syllable.

    TT > dash > mk roll puts you on the other side but it only gives you 5 frames. Frame perfect TT and cr. hp lose to jabs. cr. lp beats your opponents jab, throw and any jumps and it's hit confirmable into cl. hp or cl. mp. If you opponent likes to back dash he'll back dash right into your arms.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    ...getting hit out of whatever I try to do. Maybe I'm getting there too slowly..

    Remember that all rolls are not completely invincible. They're able to be hit on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and last frame. EX has more invincibility, but you'd have to check frame data for that one. I can't remember which particular ones they are. But, it just sounds like you're getting jabbed out of a roll.
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    Hmm, yeah maybe I am waiting too long to hit a button, I dunno. Doesn?t feel like it, but is certainly possible. I just tend to go for crossup anyway, but it seems like most of the top guys go for the ambiguous roll even more than crossup, but when I try it I get hit out of my mixups, like, every time. It?s weird. I?m happy just crossing up, really, but it seems like the roll shenanigans are preferable so I want to implement them. Thanks ?
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  • MafamaticksMafamaticks Where'd ya life go? Joined: Posts: 779
    I thought the same thing at first. Trust me hit up training mode and pick somebody like Cody. Record yourself doing TT > dash > lk roll into 2 jabs. As Cody, hit throw on your wake up. If Cody throws you you did it too late if you hit Cody you're doing it right.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Corrected some stuff, including hfz's notes. I need to get off the game at work on this. :/
  • RobbesRobbes Joined: Posts: 125
    Just wanna say "Thank You!" to Dustlooper for this great writeup. Helped me a lot.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Just wanna say "Thank You!" to Dustlooper for this great writeup. Helped me a lot.

    Thanks, bro. Still working on it, obviously, but I try to get an update or two every week.
    If you have any questions, throw 'em up so I can include 'em. If you're wondering it, someone else probably is, too.
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