Abel Beginner Thread: "It takes more than brute strength..."

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  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    ... but it isn't

    You should be using cr.hp xx hp falling sky - there's no reason to sacrifice 20 damage unless you're using unsafe cr.hp's that need to be hit confirmed in the first place
    I agree. But, I think it's worth having a list simply because it's worth knowing who cr.hp, lk roll, fierce FS doesn't work on.

    Updates made.
  • Kelter SkelterKelter Skelter the kelly skelly Joined: Posts: 2,844
    I thought mp falling sky was only 10 dmg less than hp but, either way sometimes you need the meter more than the extra 10/20 damage.
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  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Updated some neutral jumps. But, I have finals to study for.

    I have no idea what to say about his neutral jumps. Lol.
  • HFXHFX out of practice abel Joined: Posts: 4,738
    Your posts need a lot of fixing, the facts part is decent but when you start adding your own opinions... thats another story... maybe ill pm you when im free on which parts you should remove/correct.. and what to add..
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  • SillenderSillender run stop short Joined: Posts: 288
    If you always cancel straight into falling sky, it makes it alot more obvious when you go for a roll to a mixup/reset
  • electricelectric Big French Bruiser Joined: Posts: 482
    I thought mp falling sky was only 10 dmg less than hp but, either way sometimes you need the meter more than the extra 10/20 damage.

    Woops - yeah, the damage differential is only 10 - you're right.

    But yeah, I still don't think the 20 meter is worth it. HP falling sky also does 200 stun as opposed to 150 - that makes all the difference when playing a low stun/stamina character like Dhalsim
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Your posts need a lot of fixing, the facts part is decent but when you start adding your own opinions... thats another story... maybe ill pm you when im free on which parts you should remove/correct.. and what to add..
    Please do. I've only been playing Abel for about two or so months. Any help in this just helps me learn Abel.
  • Vital_VenomVital_Venom FINAL SIGMA Joined: Posts: 48
    I have a question what do you do as an abel player when your opponent is breathing down your neck and crossing you up left and right? Just so you all know I feel my abel is still pretty scrubby. That being said I understand abel has AA's like crouching fierce punch or crouching forward. But those do not when the opponent is hovering over and being really aggressive. I can block cross-ups and tech throws for the most part but not for lets say 10 or 15 seconds straight. Since abel does not have a get me out of jail card for free A.K.A. SHORYUKEN. Then what are his options other than rolling to keep opponents from jumping is on you for free? Thanks for the responses guys

    p.s. this was originally posted in the "The Abel F.A.Q: NOW WITH FRAME DATA"
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  • r00ster22r00ster22 Joined: Posts: 3,909
    Abel's defense is blocking for about 10 seconds sometimes depending on the character of course. for instance if you are fighting a very good seth that knows his mixup options it is smart to often just block until you can see a opening to either 1) backdash, 2) EX CoD, or EX roll, 3) crouch tech/standing tech depending on the situation. Patience is your friend when stuck with lots of cross ups learn the match ups and find holes in the players game. If they leave there feet you can ex roll out for free, or roll depending how high in the air they are normal roll. Often the case with abel though is your best defense is a smart offense. By smart I mean find your range so if you see him throw out a limb you can punish or if he jumps you can AA. C.mk is better if they jump farther away, c.HP is better in a shorter arc.

    Practice the AA range and timing C.hp has to be out for a while to get the most out of that AA and c.mk can be canced into roll to start your offense immediately with a mix up. Use your standing lk to poke at them and set up step kick or a AA situation. neutral jumps are best handled by close standing fierce punch which can also be roll canceled into more mix ups. Be patient learn your AA ranges and learn to read the opponent to get out scar free with Abel.
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  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    It's also worth nothing that close st.hp can be used as an AA, but that's not something I'm proficient enough with to explain. EX Falling Sky also is a notable anti-air. Sometimes, it's worth considering even a focus attack. Neutral jumping will work on some characters, but there's just a plethora of answers that you can have there.

    And, I'd like to thank everyone for the support I've been getting. It's helped a lot with this thread, and it's helped me personally. This is my last week of summer courses; I should have some time then to work more on this.
  • InazumaInazuma Winless :( Joined: Posts: 22
    Thanks Dust for all the info and hard work. :)

    Is there a thread or can someone list what Abel's mix-ups are? I really don't know what i should be using on a knock-down. Seems like everytime i try a roll mix-up I mess up something as i get hit hard and then i'm afraid to try any mix-ups at all. I'm usually at a lose on what I can/should do.
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  • dood23dood23 Mix-up Amateur Joined: Posts: 106
    Thanks Dust for all the info and hard work. :)

    Is there a thread or can someone list what Abel's mix-ups are? I really don't know what i should be using on a knock-down. Seems like everytime i try a roll mix-up I mess up something as i get hit hard and then i'm afraid to try any mix-ups at all. I'm usually at a lose on what I can/should do.

    oki variation

    https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B7S1JTWz7Q_CYzkwNWUxYzktNmY0YS00MzhhLTk5N2MtOGIzMzgzOWYzMjA1&hl=en&authkey=CPnAyIwG
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Is there a thread or can someone list what Abel's mix-ups are? I really don't know what i should be using on a knock-down. Seems like everytime i try a roll mix-up I mess up something as i get hit hard and then i'm afraid to try any mix-ups at all. I'm usually at a lose on what I can/should do.
    http://shoryuken.com/f250/abel-cr-fp-resets-mindgames-191730/

    I'll be adding these sooner or later. I'm just lazy as hell.
  • InazumaInazuma Winless :( Joined: Posts: 22
    Perfect!

    Thanks dood and Dust!
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  • HFXHFX out of practice abel Joined: Posts: 4,738
    @dust

    1. i noticed you kept using AA cr.hp (1st hit only) --- actually its the 2nd hit of the cr.hp that juggles, 1st hit of cr.hp will just air reset the opponent.

    2. neutral jump lk can also hit behind him a little so this can also be used if someone dashed under you (or summin like cody's wakeup ex zonk)

    3. as for wheel kicks, its punishable but if you can somehow make it that only the tip of the kick was blocked (proper distance), only a few moves can punish it

    4. regarding rolls, maybe need to include that youre vulnerable on the last frame of the roll (except EX)

    5. heartless - you mentioned comboing into it from 1st hit cr.hp. first, you can combo into it plenty of ways (even of a 2 hits cr.hp you can cancel immediately into it).. i guess its the way you wrote "-If you really want to combo into this, you can cancel the first hit of cr.hp into Heartless. " like its the only(and best) option.

    6. soulless - you said its not immune to hits, incorrect. refer frame data

    7. breathless - not just armor breaking moves, multiple hitting moves > breathless too.

    thats all for now i guess..
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  • sakeidosakeido hose brain Joined: Posts: 3,021
    dunno how specific you want to get but neutral jump lk is gdlk vs. fuerte
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  • Samurai DrewSamurai Drew Joined: Posts: 1,288
    dunno how specific you want to get but neutral jump lk is gdlk vs. fuerte

    How come?
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  • dood23dood23 Mix-up Amateur Joined: Posts: 106
    Maybe it's worth mentioning the properties of the different versions of Heartless.

    Jab: Hit invincible
    Medium: Throw invincible
    Strong: Fireball invincible?
  • Bonkers XIXBonkers XIX Everybody's getting divekicks Joined: Posts: 109
    c.hp xx lk roll xx heartless works on every character, I believe.
    Dunno about AA c.hp (second hit), but I know for a fact this one does if c.hp knocks em up from the ground.
    Skip the roll if in the corner.
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  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    @dust

    1. i noticed you kept using AA cr.hp (1st hit only) --- actually its the 2nd hit of the cr.hp that juggles, 1st hit of cr.hp will just air reset the opponent.
    Some of those combos require it, like cr.hp xx fierce CoD. I'll recheck and see which ones don't.

    2. neutral jump lk can also hit behind him a little so this can also be used if someone dashed under you (or summin like cody's wakeup ex zonk)
    Cool stuff; didn't know that. Will add.

    3. as for wheel kicks, its punishable but if you can somehow make it that only the tip of the kick was blocked (proper distance), only a few moves can punish it
    This is one of those things I was iffy about mentioning. This is a beginner's thread. Wheel kick, if spaced properly, can be safe. But, how many newer players can properly space that wheel kick? I sure as hell can't. :/

    4. regarding rolls, maybe need to include that youre vulnerable on the last frame of the roll (except EX)
    Absolutely. I'm not sure if I mentioned all rolls are also vulnerable on the 5th frame and any prior. Will check.

    5. heartless - you mentioned comboing into it from 1st hit cr.hp. first, you can combo into it plenty of ways (even of a 2 hits cr.hp you can cancel immediately into it).. i guess its the way you wrote "-If you really want to combo into this, you can cancel the first hit of cr.hp into Heartless. " like its the only(and best) option.
    This is another of those, "It's a beginner thread," worries. Heartless isn't exactly a great use of Abel's meter, unless it's to secure a win. His meter is just too good. The reason I mentioned 1st hit of cr.hp, rather than 2nd, is because damage scaling happens at the 3rd hit. I'm not sure which does more damage, but I can check.

    6. soulless - you said its not immune to hits, incorrect. refer frame data
    Will do.

    7. breathless - not just armor breaking moves, multiple hitting moves > breathless too.
    Try enough. I wasn't thinking about stuff like Balrog's cr.jab xx super when I wrote this.

    thats all for now i guess..
    Good stuff, hfz. Appreciate it a lot.
    dunno how specific you want to get but neutral jump lk is gdlk vs. fuerte
    I'm not exactly sure where the median of this thread is yet. Some of that stuff needs to be in HAV's matchup thread, rather than this. I think it's worth mentioning that it's exceptional for certain matchups, but I'm not sure how far to go without it being considered match-up data.
    Maybe it's worth mentioning the properties of the different versions of Heartless.

    Jab: Hit invincible
    Medium: Throw invincible
    Strong: Fireball invincible?
    It is. Will do.
    c.hp xx lk roll xx heartless works on every character, I believe.
    Dunno about AA c.hp (second hit), but I know for a fact this one does if c.hp knocks em up from the ground.
    Skip the roll if in the corner.
    Why are you rolling? For meter? If you have Heartless, you already have full meter. 1st hit canceled or both hits of cr.hp do combo into Heartless. But, as I threw up earlier, I'm not sure if I want to include a section about comboing into Heartless.

    So, that comes the question. Should there be a section for combos into Super? I'm almost worried that if I add it, it's almost like saying Heartless is worth holding out on, rather than using FADCs and certain EXes.

    In other news, final is today. I can work on this more. : D
    Thanks for the critiques, guys.
  • SillenderSillender run stop short Joined: Posts: 288
    I think once you get a good understanding of Abel, you'll know how to combo into super on your own. It shouldn't be stressed as one of your main options.
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    If jabs and DPs and throws auto-correct for sides, what are we hoping they do on a wakeup ambiguous roll? Block? Or is the idea to immediately do an EX TT as they wake up if we think they're going to hit a button?

    I just find that every time I ambiguous roll on a wakeup, I'm getting hit out of whatever I try to do. Maybe I'm getting there too slowly, but after TT I'll immediately dash, then LK/MK roll, so unless that's not a safe setup (because it's too slow), I don't think I'm doing it too slow. <shrug>
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  • dood23dood23 Mix-up Amateur Joined: Posts: 106
    So, that comes the question. Should there be a section for combos into Super? I'm almost worried that if I add it, it's almost like saying Heartless is worth holding out on, rather than using FADCs and certain EXes. .

    Maybe if you said "Don't hold out for these" :smokin:. But a combo into a super is still an option, and it's an option that will find it's moments. It just shouldn't be the first option.
    If jabs and DPs and throws auto-correct for sides, what are we hoping they do on a wakeup ambiguous roll? Block? Or is the idea to immediately do an EX TT as they wake up if we think they're going to hit a button?

    I just find that every time I ambiguous roll on a wakeup, I'm getting hit out of whatever I try to do. Maybe I'm getting there too slowly, but after TT I'll immediately dash, then LK/MK roll, so unless that's not a safe setup (because it's too slow), I don't think I'm doing it too slow. <shrug>

    Well, I would think that you're hoping for them to guess wrong, but you also want to use their tendencies against them.
  • MafamaticksMafamaticks Where'd ya life go? Joined: Posts: 779
    If jabs and DPs and throws auto-correct for sides, what are we hoping they do on a wakeup ambiguous roll? Block? Or is the idea to immediately do an EX TT as they wake up if we think they're going to hit a button?

    I just find that every time I ambiguous roll on a wakeup, I'm getting hit out of whatever I try to do. Maybe I'm getting there too slowly, but after TT I'll immediately dash, then LK/MK roll, so unless that's not a safe setup (because it's too slow), I don't think I'm doing it too slow. <shrug>

    I just picked up Abel not too long ago so I'm working out his intricacies. Hopefully the more experienced Abel players can correct me if I'm wrong.

    As far as what you want them to do on an ambiguous roll, it depends.

    TT > dash > lk roll gives you 8 frames. If it's timed right: lk roll into cr. HP should beat out the jab, throw, neutral & jump back since cr. HP has an 8 frame start up. The 2 active frames of the cr. hp should overlap the 3 frame startup of Ryu's jab and anything else they're trying to do. Not to mention cr. lp is just as effective and can hit confirm into either cl. hp or cl. mp. Blocking the right way stops this and reversal SRK trades.

    lk roll into TT beats blocking and throws but it can lose to jabs. TT starts up in 5 frames and has 2 active frames. roll gives you 8 so if you you do frame perfect you'll whiff. Do it one frame later the active frames should overlap the 3 frame jab, netting you the TT. Do it later you can get jabbed out. I've been trying to mash jab out of it in Training mode and i've got thrown more than I've stopped it.. I've only been able to do it if I timed it right and the timing is hard for me to do. So if you have someone under pressure it's a good chance they'll eat the throw. Neutral jumping, jumping back & SRK beat the throw.

    You might be doing the dash and roll properly, but you're waiting too long to press a button. Abel says Excellent(?) when he rolls. If you're doing a grab after a dash and lk roll let him say Excellent. If you're going for a cr. lp or cr. hp don't let him finish the last syllable.

    TT > dash > mk roll puts you on the other side but it only gives you 5 frames. Frame perfect TT and cr. hp lose to jabs. cr. lp beats your opponents jab, throw and any jumps and it's hit confirmable into cl. hp or cl. mp. If you opponent likes to back dash he'll back dash right into your arms.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    ...getting hit out of whatever I try to do. Maybe I'm getting there too slowly..

    Remember that all rolls are not completely invincible. They're able to be hit on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and last frame. EX has more invincibility, but you'd have to check frame data for that one. I can't remember which particular ones they are. But, it just sounds like you're getting jabbed out of a roll.
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    Hmm, yeah maybe I am waiting too long to hit a button, I dunno. Doesn?t feel like it, but is certainly possible. I just tend to go for crossup anyway, but it seems like most of the top guys go for the ambiguous roll even more than crossup, but when I try it I get hit out of my mixups, like, every time. It?s weird. I?m happy just crossing up, really, but it seems like the roll shenanigans are preferable so I want to implement them. Thanks ?
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  • MafamaticksMafamaticks Where'd ya life go? Joined: Posts: 779
    I thought the same thing at first. Trust me hit up training mode and pick somebody like Cody. Record yourself doing TT > dash > lk roll into 2 jabs. As Cody, hit throw on your wake up. If Cody throws you you did it too late if you hit Cody you're doing it right.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Corrected some stuff, including hfz's notes. I need to get off the game at work on this. :/
  • RobbesRobbes Joined: Posts: 125
    Just wanna say "Thank You!" to Dustlooper for this great writeup. Helped me a lot.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Just wanna say "Thank You!" to Dustlooper for this great writeup. Helped me a lot.

    Thanks, bro. Still working on it, obviously, but I try to get an update or two every week.
    If you have any questions, throw 'em up so I can include 'em. If you're wondering it, someone else probably is, too.
  • sakeidosakeido hose brain Joined: Posts: 3,021
    How come?

    When he does a run back command throw on you (propeller throw?) with not-stupid spacing, you jump facing the direction he came from and he lands very slightly behind you. nj.lk can "cross up" and hit people behind Abel, so you can use it to at least force Fuerte to block or maybe punish his recovery with nj.lk, standing close fierce. there may be a way around this for Fuerte.. dunno.
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  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Neutral jumps finished. Lazy explanations. Whatever. I got the hit boxes up.

    Jumping normals next. Should be easier to write about.
  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    I have just started using Abel not too long ago and I need to know what are some crucial OS for him to learn? I am allready practicing crouch tech but I keep hearing people talk about OS sweep and what not. So what are some basic universal OS that Abel can use (if there are any universal ones). And are there any crucial OS that I need to know for certain matchups?

    I want to slowly work them into my game so I just want to cover the main ones for now. Could someone help me with the inputs to if they suggest it? I understand what a OS is suppose to do but the inputs throw me off a little bit. I feel like I am slowly learning though.
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  • oialtoialt Joined: Posts: 16
    Question: what's the best way to apply ground pressure on an opponent while staying relatively safe and capable to attack/defend? Abel lacks pokes, and rolls and step kicks can be used to get inside. It's just once I'm inside what do I do? Basically I'm struggling against characters like Cammy and Juri, who can bully me up close until I get that crucial knockdown; as well as characters like Rose and Bison who can quite happily keep me at arms length with pokes. How do you apply pressure, and force characters back?
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    EX CoD has one hit of hyper-armor. They're poking? EX CoD eats a poke and punishes.

    EX TT is immune to hits. If it whiffs, though, you're up to be punished.

    If you've used something like a f+mk to get close, it's now up to your creativity. Blocked? TT, neutral jump, or roll. Hit? s.hp xx fierce CoD or cr.lp, cr.lp [notalink] f+mk. Tick throw. They're crouching? OH s.hk.

    Be creative.
  • HFXHFX out of practice abel Joined: Posts: 4,738
    best way to apply ground pressure


    s.lk
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  • A V I A T O RA V I A T O R The Rising Star Joined: Posts: 19
    best way to apply ground pressure


    s.lk
    So True

    Dash up st.lk and don't forget about st.mk, basically play footsies to get in, Do not try to force your way in with jump ins all the time, its risky if not spaced properly.
  • NikkowarNikkowar Insane Psychopath Joined: Posts: 840
    This is going to be my new home, my Abel sucks.
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  • pietonpieton Joined: Posts: 515
    I am very new to Abel but interested.

    Couple of simple questions :

    -Should I directly hit confirm out of f+mk

    -I dont how to hold my stick best when going for f+hk s.hp ,
    I am so use to p-linking c.hp with Ryu that its kind of unnatural to me to do a standing fierce punch.
    Do you let go the stick hit s.hp quicky xx into COD
    I find easy to link s.hp if I hold my stick forward , problem is when I want to xx into COD I am doing a sky fall.

    -When my f+hk is blocked is TT the most natural option

    -Something about all the mix up involving a marseille roll. What if you play an opponent who simply push grab anything
    he see you roll. Should most of the roll thing be when I get a knockdown.
    Because I was reading all those great mix up involving rolling than rolling back cross up. If perceptive opponent always
    push grab on a second roll where are the mix up.

    thx for your answers
  • BunsavBunsav Joined: Posts: 139
    -Should I directly hit confirm out of f+mk

    Yes you should be able to confirm that the F MK lands and go for the St hp and on block you should just crouch tech(to bait reversal), throw (prob best option), TT (if you notice your throws teching alot after the blocked F MK).
    -I dont how to hold my stick best when going for f+hk s.hp ,
    I am so use to p-linking c.hp with Ryu that its kind of unnatural to me to do a standing fierce punch.
    Do you let go the stick hit s.hp quicky xx into COD
    I find easy to link s.hp if I hold my stick forward , problem is when I want to xx into COD I am doing a sky fall.

    Ok on the holding your stick thing really is down to you finding the way you like to do it best. I reset the stick after the dash, plink the st hp and go from there. The cancel is very slow from the st hp, you have plenty of time.
    -When my f+hk is blocked is TT the most natural option

    I kind of answered this already however i will elaborate. Most decent players will be trying to throw you out of a blocked step kick so TT is a great option. Problem is a decent player will know you want to TT and a single neutral jump/backdash to make you whiff that TT leaves you open for a full BnB. In the same situation if you used normal throw they will struggle to punish you (its not impossible some chars can do it but its far safer).

    Personally i always go for normal throw on the first blocked step kick to test the water, if you get a tech i would suggest trying a TT next time. On the other hand if they n jump or back dash not only will you be pretty safe but you then know they are scared of TT so you can try option selecting a cr short with sweep to catch the backdash. If they are neutral jumping or jumping back/forwards after your blocked step kick try going for st hp anyway to tag them jumping out.

    It comes down to you reading them but your go to safest option on a blocked step kick is normal throw.

    -Something about all the mix up involving a marseille roll. What if you play an opponent who simply push grab anything
    he see you roll. Should most of the roll thing be when I get a knockdown.
    Because I was reading all those great mix up involving rolling than rolling back cross up. If perceptive opponent always
    push grab on a second roll where are the mix up.

    You should not be rolling in randomly to attempt to close space.
    Just learn to be patient dash in/walk forwards to get you into your step kick/st lk range.

    Now thats said lets talk about mix ups. Take this as an example, if you land a TT then dash forwards and lk roll soon as you leave that roll start a cr hp done right they will be UNABLE to throw you as you are hitting them early enough to beat the throw.

    The setup with the double roll you talked about is for baiting reversals it loses to throws and thats just a risk you have to take. If you see them being a bit throw happy dont go for those sorts of setups go for meaty ones that beat throws (like the one i mentioned above).

    Ill just walk you through a example so you can understand where each mix up finds its place in a game.

    So you got your first knockdown with a TT, you dash in lk roll and the cr hp lands preventing him from throwing. Now if his throw just got beasted by that setup the next time you try a mix up he will most likely want to try his uppercut. So lets say for example you land another TT and dash in lk roll then lk roll again, he whiffs the uppercut which would of beaten TT and you get a free punish.

    Its all about getting into the opponents head and deciding whats best. If you want some further examples of roll setups then just drop me a pm and ill break some down for you.
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Bunsav did a good job answering these, but I'll throw in my input as well. Replies will be in bold.
    I am very new to Abel but interested.

    Couple of simple questions :

    -Should I directly hit confirm out of f+mk

    Yes. There's two questions I ask myself when I land an f+mk: (1) Are they blocking, and (2) are they crouching?
    If they've blocked the f+mk, you have a couple of options.
    The most obvious is a fierce TT. This works on both standing and blocking characters.
    Abel's normal throw is quicker, has less recovery, and does less damage.
    If they're crouch-blocking, cl.hk is an overhead. I've heard that OH hk, s.lk, f+mk is a link, but I don't know. Apparently it's two one-framers, but I honestly don't know.
    If they're standing, cr.lk is a valid option; a crouch-tech is an even better one. You can go for a cr.lk, s.hp, fierce CoD; the cr.lk, s.hp is a one framer. You can opt for cr.lk, s.mp, strong CoD, but I don't know if that's still a 1-framer.
    Besides those, there are other options--though they're not as safe. Things like cr.mk xx mk roll can work, but it's not safe (see: gimmicky). Just go into practice mode and look at what you can do.


    -I dont how to hold my stick best when going for f+hk s.hp ,
    I am so use to p-linking c.hp with Ryu that its kind of unnatural to me to do a standing fierce punch.

    How did you hold your stick with Ryu? Hold it like that. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Just get used to it. When you try to do the s.hp, just make sure you're plinking while your stick is in the neutral position.

    Do you let go the stick hit s.hp quicky xx into COD

    Honestly, I just practice doing it with the least amount of inputs. Go into training mode and get used to the f+mk, s.hp link. If canceling s.hp xx fierce CoD is your issue, practice that (make sure you're doing a cl.hp).

    I find easy to link s.hp if I hold my stick forward , problem is when I want to xx into COD I am doing a sky fall.

    It sounds like you're doing :qcf::r::p: instead of :qcf::p:. go into training mode and turn inputs on. Look.

    -When my f+hk is blocked is TT the most natural option

    I assume you mean f+mk. But, it is the most natural option. That, however, doesn't make it the best option. If it's the most natural, that means your opponent probably anticipates that. Keep that in mind, and consider how you'd prevent getting TT'd. Examples include backdashing and neutral jumping. Neutral jumping can be beat by AA cl.fp, AA cr.hp, and other options. Backdashing can be beat by a couple a things, and there's a couple of OSes just for that.

    -Something about all the mix up involving a marseille roll. What if you play an opponent who simply push grab anything
    he see you roll. Should most of the roll thing be when I get a knockdown.

    https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B7S1JTWz7Q_CYzkwNWUxYzktNmY0YS00MzhhLTk5N2MtOGIzMzgzOWYzMjA1&hl=en&authkey=CPnAyIwG&pli=1
    This is just a page showing oki options, along with frame advantage. After a TT, for example, dash and lk roll to land in front, or dash and mk roll to land behind.
    But, try to restrict your rolls to oki or avoiding projectiles. Abel has the fastest dash in the game. Along with f+mk, your approach game shouldn't be a problem.
  • BunsavBunsav Joined: Posts: 139
    TY looper you touched on some stuff i missed.
  • pietonpieton Joined: Posts: 515
    Thx for your advice, its refreshing to see a complete answer.

    I briefly look at the Okizeme varation on wake up, very interesting. I had a couple of questions about it.

    After TT dash lk roll...

    option 1: You go for a meaty TT, It can get beat by neutral jump or reversal ( how fast the reversal has to be to beat it)

    option 2 When you go for a c.lp, is the goal to delayed it a few frames after the roll to get it meaty. With 8 frames advantage, 5 frames startup on the c.lp and 2 active frame it seem it would whiff is done instantly after roll.

    If you c.lp hit, is the combos of choice s.hp xx strong Cod. Do you try to hit confirm on the c.lp , I see its +6 on hit so it look reasonable or a prefered option would be to go c.lp , s.hp than decide on hit to COD and on block to Roll.

    What Option select are useful vs backdashers in relation to a meaty c.lp

    option 3 meaty C.hp. So is the idea to cancel into roll on block and do a combo if you see it hit.


    After a block F+mk , when you want to option select vs backdasher, Do you go c.lk + c.lp xx c.lp + c.hk . and finish with a blockstring on block. Also when you realise youre c.lk xx c.lp have hit confirmed do you have a better combos option then finishing with normals.

    After a block F+mk , as i understand an opponent mashing 3 frames jab should beat you out of TT but will get beat by a regular
    throw. What do you do against opponent who mash OS c.lp + c.lk and have 3 frames c.lk.

    After a block F+mk , if you throw the opponent has option of backdash but neutral jump get beat.

    I appreciate all your inputs, It really is helping me
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    You're noticing that everything beats something else. A lot of Abel is based off the yomi game. If you notice they enjoy backdashing, you know (now) how to beat the backdash. You can't do the same shit over and over; that's why it's called a mix-up.

    Answers in bold, again.
    Thx for your advice, its refreshing to see a complete answer.

    I briefly look at the Okizeme varation on wake up, very interesting. I had a couple of questions about it.

    After TT dash lk roll...

    option 1: You go for a meaty TT, It can get beat by neutral jump or reversal ( how fast the reversal has to be to beat it)

    You have an 8 frame advantage. All TTs have a 5 frame start-up (active on frames 6 and 7). So, assuming it takes a frame or 2 to input the HCB, the reversal needs to be throw-immune on its very early frames. So, something like an SRK beats TT.

    Remember that, if you whiff, HP TT has the least amount of recovery frames. But, HP has the shortest range (0.9). Medium has more range and takes longer to pull back. So on and so forth. EX TT has the most recovery, and has a little bit more range than HP TT. Strengths, as usual, are HP, MP, and LP. EX TT does damage equal to MP TT. EX TT is immune to hits on the first 6 frames. All other TTs are immune to throws on the first 6 frames.


    option 2 When you go for a c.lp, is the goal to delayed it a few frames after the roll to get it meaty. With 8 frames advantage, 5 frames startup on the c.lp and 2 active frame it seem it would whiff is done instantly after roll.

    Right.

    If you c.lp hit, is the combos of choice s.hp xx strong Cod. Do you try to hit confirm on the c.lp , I see its +6 on hit so it look reasonable or a prefered option would be to go c.lp , s.hp than decide on hit to COD and on block to Roll.

    cr.lp, cl.hp, fierce CoD. You can do strong, but why sacrifice damage?
    If you're landing a s.hp, why are you canceling into a roll? If you feel like you can hit-confirm just off of the cr.lp (possible, I'm sure; I just can't do it), cr.lp, cl.hk hits as an overhead on crouching. Also, cr.lp, TT works just like a tick-throw on blocking characters. Of course, cr.lp, s.hp, fierce CoD is valid; you can FADC the first hit of CoD into a cr.hp (2-frame link), and follow with either fierce FS (any character), U1 (any character), or lk roll, fierce FS (character specific; I have a chart in the guide).


    What Option select are useful vs backdashers in relation to a meaty c.lp

    Quote in spoilers. Don't ask me to explain this; I'm clueless.

    Use this one vs characters who have "good" backdashes like Chun, Rose, Etc.


    You can use this one vs characters w/ shorter backdashes

    option 3 meaty C.hp. So is the idea to cancel into roll on block and do a combo if you see it hit.

    cr.hp, fierce FS on hit will work, as will cr.hp xx fierce CoD (cancel the first hit). You can do cr.hp, super (cancel either hit), but I never thought super was worth it. YMMV.
    If you're a bold fucker, you can do cr.hp xx fierce CoD FADC fierce TT on block. Not quite a tick-throw, but you get the idea. Not safe, though.


    After a block F+mk , when you want to option select vs backdasher, Do you go c.lk + c.lp xx c.lp + c.hk . and finish with a blockstring on block. Also when you realise youre c.lk xx c.lp have hit confirmed do you have a better combos option then finishing with normals.

    c.lp, c.hk is not a link. That doesn't work. But, a fun thing to do is cr.hk, mk or hk wheel kick. The cr.hk has to be blocked low; it can be special canceled into wheel kick, which is an overhead.


    After a block F+mk , as i understand an opponent mashing 3 frames jab should beat you out of TT but will get beat by a regular
    throw. What do you do against opponent who mash OS c.lp + c.lk and have 3 frames c.lk.

    Unless it's an EX TT. EX TT beats that. EX CoD is also has one hit of hyper-armor. Neutral jumping and backdashing are options. EX roll is immune to hits starting on frame 2; all other rolls are immune on frame 6-onwards. Really, as Abel, sometimes it's just best to block that shit and wait for them to fuck up.

    After a block F+mk , if you throw the opponent has option of backdash but neutral jump get beat.

    If you're doing just a regular throw, no big. Whiff time is minimal. But, if you're noticing they like backdashing, I gave you some OSes.

    I appreciate all your inputs, It really is helping me

    Get some inputs from hfz, HAV, Juicebox (if he still likes to post), or other residential Abels. I'm not very good.
  • pietonpieton Joined: Posts: 515
    Thx for your help , still need some clarifications
    Remember that, if you whiff, HP TT has the least amount of recovery frames. But, HP has the shortest range (0.9). Medium has more range and takes longer to pull back. So on and so forth. EX TT has the most recovery, and has a little bit more range than HP TT. Strengths, as usual, are HP, MP, and LP. EX TT does damage equal to MP TT. EX TT is immune to hits on the first 6 frames. All other TTs are immune to throws on the first 6 frames.

    Good to know, when you go for a meaty one on wake up is HP TT the best one ?
    Wiki Frame datas from Shoryuken mention Ex TT has 1-6 frames throw invincibility,
    as I understand this is simply a mistake and its hit invincibility
    cr.hp, fierce FS on hit will work, as will cr.hp xx fierce CoD (cancel the first hit). You can do cr.hp, super (cancel either hit), but I never thought super was worth it. YMMV.
    If you're a bold fucker, you can do cr.hp xx fierce CoD FADC fierce TT on block. Not quite a tick-throw, but you get the idea. Not safe, though.

    So when The meaty c.hp is blocked you have to cancel into a roll right ? Otherwise your -6 on block


    With the meaty c.lp , s.hp If your hit confirming within the 2 moves you have to cancel s.hp into a roll again on block ?

    c.lp, c.hk is not a link. That doesn't work. But, a fun thing to do is cr.hk, mk or hk wheel kick. The cr.hk has to be blocked low; it can be special canceled into wheel kick, which is an overhead.

    c.lp + c.lk xx c.lp + c.hk

    Maybe your not familiar with the option select but the annotation above signify the c.lp will chain together
    since chain take priority over the strongest attack ( in this case c.hk)

    If opponent back dash c.hk come since the c.lp are not getting cancel into each other.

    My question was is this the best OS vs backdasher and what combos should you do if c.lp xx c.lp happen to hit

    Again thx for your asnwers , I am geting a crash course on Abel :)
  • DustlooperDustlooper Jab FADC Joined: Posts: 988
    Tried to help.
    Thx for your help , still need some clarifications



    Good to know, when you go for a meaty one on wake up is HP TT the best one ?
    Wiki Frame datas from Shoryuken mention Ex TT has 1-6 frames throw invincibility,
    as I understand this is simply a mistake and its hit invincibility

    EX TT only has hit immunity. Option-Select.com - Strategy - Abel also has frame data for Abel, but I think it's SF4. Same gist, though.


    So when The meaty c.hp is blocked you have to cancel into a roll right ? Otherwise your -6 on block


    With the meaty c.lp , s.hp If your hit confirming within the 2 moves you have to cancel s.hp into a roll again on block ?

    I'll give you a situation:

    After a TT, I've gotten an untechable knockdown. I now am going to go for the safest options: dash, lk roll or dash, mk roll in order to make my my opponent guess what side I'm on.

    At this point, regardless of what side I'm on, I'm probably going to do a cr.lp, s.hp. If the s.hp hits (same concept here with c.hp), I'm going to go into fierce CoD. If it doesn't, I'll cancel into lk roll or mk roll for another mix-up (this isn't safe, but it's better than being -10 on block).

    After I'm done with that roll, I'll do cr.lp again. If he blocks, fierce TT for another knockdown and another mix-up.

    I have a video where I do this once or twice to a local player. I'll see if I can get it off of him so you can see rather than hear.


    c.lp + c.lk xx c.lp + c.hk

    Maybe your not familiar with the option select but the annotation above signify the c.lp will chain together
    since chain take priority over the strongest attack ( in this case c.hk)

    If opponent back dash c.hk come since the c.lp are not getting cancel into each other.

    My question was is this the best OS vs backdasher and what combos should you do if c.lp xx c.lp happen to hit

    Input: c.lp, F+MK ~ ~ s.HK, forward

    vs late cr.tech: will get CH that combos into F+MK
    vs backdash: free F+MK combo
    vs jump-aways free damage, but no followup setup.

    So, you put in the f+mk and the s.hk together, if I'm reading that right.


    Again thx for your asnwers , I am geting a crash course on Abel :)
  • CokklesCokkles f.mk, grab Joined: Posts: 151
    I have two questions.

    1. c.hp xx jab roll, super. Is this worth the damage?

    2. Abels links.. I'm used to Dudley jump ins which consist of j.hk, c.lp, c.lp, shk etc etc. Obviously you can't do j.mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.mp cause it ends up being a fs.mp... So.. should I being doing j.mk, c.lp, s.mp? or j.mk, c.lp, s.mp? or should I just do j.mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.hp xx fierce CoD etc.

    I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it. Cause it seems my old habits from Dudley are hurting my Abel play a bit. Because Dudley doesn't have differences in close and far standing moves.
    PSN & LIVE: Cokkles (Only got fighting games on PSN at the moment)
    Looking for casuals in Durham NC? Message me and lets do this!
  • Anti-HeroAnti-Hero P-Dub Joined: Posts: 545
    I have two questions.

    1. c.hp xx jab roll, super. Is this worth the damage?

    2. Abels links.. I'm used to Dudley jump ins which consist of j.hk, c.lp, c.lp, shk etc etc. Obviously you can't do j.mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.mp cause it ends up being a fs.mp... So.. should I being doing j.mk, c.lp, s.mp? or j.mk, c.lp, s.mp? or should I just do j.mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.hp xx fierce CoD etc.

    I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it. Cause it seems my old habits from Dudley are hurting my Abel play a bit. Because Dudley doesn't have differences in close and far standing moves.

    c.HP xxx super (roll doesnt really matter, cept style) can be worth it. Its a lot of damage. I like it, but those 2 possible FADC's can also be worth even more damage, so i like to leave it up to how the match is going. And obviously do it if its for the final round/win.

    Jumpin mk, s.fp is a good combo, faster than c.jab and c.mp and more damage + it goes into F.CoD. But that whiffs on standing so i usually go to either c.mp or c.jab link s.mp if they are crouching.
    Capcom vs Pyro
    Sneaky attack at the start of the round!
    Street Fighter 4: Abel
  • cuttyb87cuttyb87 Joined: Posts: 47
    Abel is a unique character outside of his cross over mk he doesnt have anything to jump in so try not to jump while using him.
    I guess that the only advice I have a question for all Abel players. After the F-Mk S.HP combo is nice but I notice that if you f-mk then go into cr.lk then tornado throw it add more mix ups I want to know whats some of yalls favorite way to make your Abel play unique
  • cuttyb87cuttyb87 Joined: Posts: 47
    I wont be online for awhile and I will be in training mode going over drills with my new TE stick and I was wondering with Abel being my main is there any drills that I can do with him that can help my execution of his moves.
    Not match up ideas but ways to perform my 1 frame links in training mode. I have started doing his 24 trails again and if I'm not in there I was wondering is there any situational things I need to go over while using a stick.
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