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  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,155 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    her bad match ups?

    anyone that does more damage and has better normals than her.

    IMO K-Sagat bodies her hard.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 778
    edited March 2015
    I don't know Mai well enough to comment on hard counters. I'm thinking that anybody who can deal with her low jump game and can outpoke her on the ground is going to be problematic. So Sagat, Cammy, Ken?

    I could see Bison being a problem as well - hard for her to get in on him, and N Mai doesn't do enough damage when she does get in.

    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • popoblopopoblo Joined: Posts: 2,147
    Ouroborus- good call on K-Sagat. I've seen videos where Rai plays super patient and just abuses standing fierce for long-distance pokes and AA and owns C-Sagats, but K-Sagat can RTSD better.

    Mr. Warzard- I would think Cammy would be tough but RC fan could help supplement her other pokes and low jump game to make it a decent (5-5 or 4-6) matchup. I could see Ken being tricky.

    I actually remember Rai would body A-Bison just about every time without doing anything too crazy. Lots of low strongs to poke, low jump RH every now and then, qcb + fierce after blocking the first portion of a head stomp. He would almost always land his raged super by hit confirming close low shorts into super, low jump RH into super, or max range low short, standing jab xx fan super. Also empty low jumps to bait the CC activate.

    Granted, I'm recalling match vids from the best Mai player in the world, so of course he makes Mai look better in just about every matchup. I would think Blanka would be a pretty tough matchup, maybe one of her worst.

    Any wisdom, @Buktooth?
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,155 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I think Mai beats Ken the same way Vega beats Ken.

    jump speed and jumping hk are too good in this match. ken can't really throw fireballs or poke with standing hk (slow start up, tons of recovery). her jump speed and angle of her jumping hk makes it hard for ken to dp. its probably easier if mai is in a low jump groove but then, she gains low jump hk.

    standing hp anti airs really well. she also has the fastest sweep in the game tied with rock. Only difference is hers is cancellable and safer on block. Probably more range too. (Rocks lead to nastier set ups though)
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 778
    @popoblo Cammy may not be a hard counter, but she outpokes Mai on the ground, and doesn't have too hard of a time against Mai's low jump game. Damage also favors Cammy.

    re:Bison, it's a K Mai vs N Mai thing. K Mai's access to two level 3s/round really helps vs Bison. Without access to raged level 3s, the damage skews too heavily in Bison's favor IMO.

    I think Mai fares better against Blanka because he's a fat, tall-ish character who will have more trouble dealing with her low jump game.

    @Ouroborus the difference is that Vega's ground game forces Ken to rely on riskier stuff; Ken outpokes Mai (RC funky kick and cr.MK primarily), and RC funky kick snuffs low jumps and attempts to run in. Damage also is in C Ken's favor, at least.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • Shanghai KidShanghai Kid Joined: Posts: 2,261
    popoblo wrote: »
    K-Ken takes the cake for me as best K-groove shoto.

    What do you guys think are N-Mai's worst match ups? She just seems so fast and versatile that not a ton of characters could outright dominate her. Some characters will certainly outrange her, like Hibiki, Blanka, and Vega, but her low jump RH is so fast and if she gets cornered she can just wall dive out of there. Also N-groove gives her RC fan, so she gets a slightly riskier mid-range poke. I'd imagine she has some 4-6 match ups, but any 3-7 hard counters?
    A-Bison. A good N/K- Morrigan as well as N-iori can also give her some trouble, though not 7-3.
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 778
    Why do you think Morrigan and Iori are good against Mai? Those matchups seem pretty even to me. I don't see any significant advantages on the ground over Mai. As oki-heavy characters, I would think Mai's ability to RC wall dive to get out of wakeup mixups would cause them problems.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • popoblopopoblo Joined: Posts: 2,147
    @popoblo Cammy may not be a hard counter, but she outpokes Mai on the ground, and doesn't have too hard of a time against Mai's low jump game. Damage also favors Cammy.

    re:Bison, it's a K Mai vs N Mai thing. K Mai's access to two level 3s/round really helps vs Bison. Without access to raged level 3s, the damage skews too heavily in Bison's favor IMO.

    I think Mai fares better against Blanka because he's a fat, tall-ish character who will have more trouble dealing with her low jump game.

    @Ouroborus the difference is that Vega's ground game forces Ken to rely on riskier stuff; Ken outpokes Mai (RC funky kick and cr.MK primarily), and RC funky kick snuffs low jumps and attempts to run in. Damage also is in C Ken's favor, at least.

    good call on the Cammy matchup, that is probably at least 6-4 in Cammy's favor or even close to 7-3. I went into training mode and had Cammy spam the shit out of standing RH and there's literally not much Mai can do against it other than RC fan. Otherwise, low MP gets stuffed, low RH sweep doesn't have the range, and low jump RH gets stuffed as well.

    against Blanka, the low jump game is a good call if he doesn't have a charge to RC ball. low MP is a pretty fantastic move since it stuffs his low fierce, his slide, and even his low RH in some instances. It would be spammable like Rose's low MP in Alpha 2.

    As for Mai vs A-bison...

    image

    check out 13:45, 18:30, and 24:30 (and ESPECIALLY 25:05 for some cool shit) for Rai's K-Mai vs A-Bison. Again, not saying she owns Bison or anything, but it will at least give you a better idea of why I'm saying A-Bison is not a bad counter matchup. It's also a video of the best K-Mai in the world playing, so Rai obviously makes her look that much better, haha.

    good discussion!
  • HeaTHeaT mindgames Joined: Posts: 3,244
    Buktooth wrote: »
    shotos by groove:
    c: ken
    a: akuma
    p: akuma
    s: ryu
    n: akuma
    k: ken

    this is really interesting. theoretically i can see s:ryu better than k:ken, but in practice i dont think so.

    im outi

    Roberth

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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 778
    edited March 2015
    @popoblo yeah man, always good to talk about cvs2. By that I mean how the game is actually played, instead of "yeah, cvs2 is soooo great."

    @13:45 Gunter is my guy, but all he did was guess that a fireball was coming and get punished for it repeatedly.

    @18:30 I loved the vertical fire move to punish the devil reverse. Wrong guess on the cc activate. Rai's JDing had more to do with winning this round than anything else.

    @24:30 That was some cool shit. Whiff crouching strong to bait activate, level 3. Thing is, N Mai won't often be using level 3s. Especially not on a guess like that. She could RC a fan or ryuenbu, but reward is much worse.

    My two thoughts from the video are that Bison needs to be patient against Mai until he gets meter, and that Rai's success with K Mai is hard to separate from how good of a K groove player he is.

    I will say that Bison doesn't outpoke Mai on the ground, so in that sense it's kind of an even fight. I just think if Bison is patient, and sits back to build meter, it would be hard for Mai to put significant pressure on Bison. Like, a lot of characters have normals that outrange bison's, so you can either work his guard bar, or get him to guess with a RC psycho crusher or scissor kick. It seems all Mai can do is try to zone him with fireballs.

    Maybe her zoning is good enough to get a lead on bison when he's meterless? I can't say I know either way. But that seems like a tough fight.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • popoblopopoblo Joined: Posts: 2,147

    @18:30 I loved the vertical fire move to punish the devil reverse. Wrong guess on the cc activate. Rai's JDing had more to do with winning this round than anything else.

    @24:30 That was some cool shit. Whiff crouching strong to bait activate, level 3. Thing is, N Mai won't often be using level 3s. Especially not on a guess like that. She could RC a fan or ryuenbu, but reward is much worse.

    My two thoughts from the video are that Bison needs to be patient against Mai until he gets meter, and that Rai's success with K Mai is hard to separate from how good of a K groove player he is.

    I will say that Bison doesn't outpoke Mai on the ground, so in that sense it's kind of an even fight. I just think if Bison is patient, and sits back to build meter, it would be hard for Mai to put significant pressure on Bison. Like, a lot of characters have normals that outrange bison's, so you can either work his guard bar, or get him to guess with a RC psycho crusher or scissor kick. It seems all Mai can do is try to zone him with fireballs.

    Maybe her zoning is good enough to get a lead on bison when he's meterless? I can't say I know either way. But that seems like a tough fight.

    @18:30 does demonstrate that Mai has a 1 frame punish using low RH against a 1 hit bison short scissor kick. Not saying it radically shifts the matchup in her favor, but some characters don't have any type of reliable punish for a 1 hit short scissor kick.

    in regards to your 24:30 comment, if I was playing N-Mai with 2 stocks and saw A-Bison had a full meter, I'd just about always pop a stock to have a level 3 handy and also to start empty short jumping out of his AA CC range to bait a trip guard CC. But agree that a RC fan or ryuenbu is not worth it in regards to risk/reward.

    I don't have extensive personal matchup experience with Mai to say either way how the ground game would go. I've seen enough Rai vids to see he'll mainly punish Bison doing specials to build meter (low fierce xx fan to punish blocked RC psycho crusher; JD into low RH against 1 hit scissor kicks OR 1 frame low RH punish like I mentioned earlier; fan against a devil's reverse; against a head stomp follow-up, he does a qcb + p and it catches Bison surprisingly (and just RC it in N-groove). Then the ground game is lots of low strongs and low RH (especially run-up low RH which is very fast). Once Bison is scared to press buttons then he works the throw game.

    Random thought: Personally I really like the idea of N-R2 Blanka/Mai/Chun as a team.


  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 778
    Good points re: Mai's bison options. I hadn't noticed the 1-hit scissor punish.

    That's a good N-groove team, with the R2 blanka up front being the most controversial thing. I can see it being good vs A-Groove, if you're comfortable with Blanka vs the usual A-groove batteries. I don't think it's as good an idea vs C or K grooves though.

    Also, just as an aside, interesting to note that Mai probably does well in N as both battery and as a user. Meter gives her level 3 opportunities, as well as more chances to use her awesome counter roll. Too bad her meterless damage is so mediocre.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • RagingStormXRagingStormX Team Arcade Stream Joined: Posts: 5,185 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    This game needs to be ported already.
  • Nick T.Nick T. Joined: Posts: 3,976
    I personally was messing around with N - Blanka/Mai/ Chun R2 before reloaded. Worked well.
    "It's not your characters' weakness, but weakness in yourself.
    Practice it hard and you can beat anybody." -Kuni
  • popoblopopoblo Joined: Posts: 2,147
    edited April 2015
    Nick T. wrote: »
    I personally was messing around with N - Blanka/Mai/ Chun R2 before reloaded. Worked well.

    great minds think alike!

    @Mr.Warzard, i always really liked N-Blanka in theory and as a mixup to my A-groove team, but I had difficulty landing his super well as an anchor and would sometimes die with 3 full N-groove stocks sitting there. that's why i'd put him up front so I could build a ton of meter, use level 1 ground shave supers on wakeup if needed, and not have to worry about landing a level 3 as much. Also, if R2 N-Blanka does work up front and puts the opponent in a hole, then Mai can runaway and be a pest, which is her best play style IMO. Taking the "runaway after building a lead" idea one step further, R2 N-Blanka/Mai/Rolento (or Rolento/Mai) would be a legit team and Mai and Rolento wouldn't have issues using the meter.

    peace
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 778
    popoblo wrote: »
    Also, if R2 N-Blanka does work up front and puts the opponent in a hole, then Mai can runaway and be a pest, which is her best play style IMO. Taking the "runaway after building a lead" idea one step further, R2 N-Blanka/Mai/Rolento (or Rolento/Mai) would be a legit team and Mai and Rolento wouldn't have issues using the meter.

    I have no beef with Blanka up front - I fully support putting a top tier character up front so you can go nuts and have a chance to get a lead.

    By giving up the R2 anchor, you'd be going all in on your plan A with that team, with virtually no chance to come back if something goes wrong in the first round. I'm sure you could make it work, but I don't recommend it. Especially not in N-Groove, which in general is a bad fit for runaway (lack of stored meter and any air defense options hurts).
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • RagingStormXRagingStormX Team Arcade Stream Joined: Posts: 5,185 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    popoblo wrote: »
    Also, if R2 N-Blanka does work up front and puts the opponent in a hole, then Mai can runaway and be a pest, which is her best play style IMO. Taking the "runaway after building a lead" idea one step further, R2 N-Blanka/Mai/Rolento (or Rolento/Mai) would be a legit team and Mai and Rolento wouldn't have issues using the meter.

    I have no beef with Blanka up front - I fully support putting a top tier character up front so you can go nuts and have a chance to get a lead.

    By giving up the R2 anchor, you'd be going all in on your plan A with that team, with virtually no chance to come back if something goes wrong in the first round. I'm sure you could make it work, but I don't recommend it. Especially not in N-Groove, which in general is a bad fit for runaway (lack of stored meter and any air defense options hurts).

    Or just man up like old Houston folk and 4 ratio k-sagat. That shit was scary in tournament lol.
  • K.V.998K.V.998 Joined: Posts: 159
    Is it just me, or are link combos inconsistent? I'm trying to practice rock's 2lk 5hp link and it feels like the timing is all over the place
    PSN: KV9998
    SSFIVAE: Adon
    BBCSE: Ragna, may use Azrael in CP
  • StoneDrumStoneDrum Joined: Posts: 1,096
    ...
  • FullMetalRossFullMetalRoss That Hurt! Liar... Joined: Posts: 3,860
    If I remember 2lk 5hp is a 1 frame link with Rock in CVS2. Since the game has frame skip to speed it up it drops frames, it drops 1 frame at random every 5 frames is I believe how it works. So basically if the frame you have to do the link gets dropped you don't get to do the link. This at least was the old school explanation for it, I believe it to be true though.
    <<>>
  • K.V.998K.V.998 Joined: Posts: 159
    2lk is +6 and 5hp starts up in 4 frames so it's supposed to be a 3 frame link. Thats what the cvs2 bible says at least
    PSN: KV9998
    SSFIVAE: Adon
    BBCSE: Ragna, may use Azrael in CP
  • FullMetalRossFullMetalRoss That Hurt! Liar... Joined: Posts: 3,860
    Actually the way the system reads it thats 2 frames then. 4 frames Startup in CVS2 bible means hits on 5th frame. Also that seems wrong but its been awhile and the frame skip thing does still apply.
    <<>>
  • K.V.998K.V.998 Joined: Posts: 159
    Like I said I'm just quoting the cvs2 bible. So I'm guessing that a link combo would have to be 4 or 5 frames to be consistent
    PSN: KV9998
    SSFIVAE: Adon
    BBCSE: Ragna, may use Azrael in CP
  • FullMetalRossFullMetalRoss That Hurt! Liar... Joined: Posts: 3,860
    I could do 2 frame links consistently, bison cr.lpx2 cr.mk and a few other ones.
    <<>>
  • geadomgeadom Reversal Counter Hit Joined: Posts: 1,077
    2 Frame combos were pretty frequent in this game. Chun cr.lp to cr.mp and sagat cr.lk x 2 are the ones that come to mind first.
    "He´s different, he´s special." Pick up your spear, the only thing you can do is your best
  • RichterRichter ~~~00~~~ Joined: Posts: 1,870
    What's the best way to practice RC nowadays without PS2 or DC?

    PS3 or is the Dreamcast emulator any good?
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  • caliagent#3caliagent#3 Caliagent Bobblehead Joined: Posts: 4,173 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Richter wrote: »
    What's the best way to practice RC nowadays without PS2 or DC?

    PS3 or is the Dreamcast emulator any good?

    The PS3 version should be fine to learn the timing for the button presses. But to test RCing through stuff on reaction, the DC emu would be your best bet if your PC is strong enough.
    Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.
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  • MetalxHealthxMetalxHealthx Joined: Posts: 1,108
    edited 6:29AM
    Basically the same as the last question with a twist, I have easy access to CvS 2 on ps2 or ps3 but I don't have room for a CRT atm. My screen is a uhd samsung so I'm wondering which setup would be preferable: a ps2 on a modern tv or the ps3 version of CvS 2.

    I do intend on getting a better setup in the future whether its on pc or a nice CRT setup, but for now the Samsung 55" is what I have available.
    Post edited by MetalxHealthx at
    SF4: Gen, Dudley, Adon
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