"Hey! Let's do this for real." Concept/Discovery/Match-up Videos

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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited August 2015
    Made a picture of all of cody's hitboxes for far/crouching normals.

    CMBGhBVUcAAn7IG.png:large

    Note I didn't always take the farthest it can attack, so for instance crMP on later frames reaches farther than crHP but on the early frames crHP reaches slightly farther.

    What this highlights fairly well is that Cody has a distinct problem with jump ins aimed at about a 45º angle towards his chest/head but otherwise he covers everything. His fast normals (farLP, farLK, crLK, crLP, crMP each cover different heights in front of him but similar distances making them unique in their usefulness.

    I feel like farHP and farMP are underutilized among Cody's normals. FarMP is his 3rd farthest reaching normal (crMK and farHK farther) and it does a respectable 90 damage. FarHP I'd like to see people explore more in some matchups.
    Post edited by Eternal on
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Nice one. Far MP is good but I always find it irritating having to go to neutral to use it!
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    This is pretty sweet:

  • LemonpieLemonpie Joined: Posts: 13
    Dem juggles though! ;)
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    I wonder how meaty the LP CU last hit is and if it's possible to delay quick rise long enough to make it whiff.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Eternal wrote: »
    I wonder how meaty the LP CU last hit is and if it's possible to delay quick rise long enough to make it whiff.

    I don't think it is. What's the most you can delay the quick rise? It would have to be more than the invincible frames of EX messiah, which according to the wiki is 13.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    I wonder how meaty the LP CU last hit is and if it's possible to delay quick rise long enough to make it whiff.

    I don't think it is. What's the most you can delay the quick rise? It would have to be more than the invincible frames of EX messiah, which according to the wiki is 13.

    Tested it, it's possible to delay QR long enough to beat the LP CU, not even particularly difficult to do. You don't need have to have it be longer than the iframes of EX Messiah you just need to be able to delay it longer than the remaining active frames of LP CU's last hit since LP CU is hitting on the last hit under normal circumstances.

    I think you can delay up to 4F but I dunno exactly off the top of my head, feels a smidge longer than that to me.

    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    edited August 2015
    Interesting. When you said 'make it whiff' I didn't think you meant through EX messiah, I thought you meant whiff in general. If he doesn't have meter then presumably he still has to block CU even if he delay quick rises?
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited August 2015
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Interesting. When you said 'make it whiff' I didn't think you meant through EX messiah, I thought you meant whiff in general. If he doesn't have meter then presumably he still has to block CU even if he delay quick rises?

    Yeah I realized after I posted the video my original post might have been unclear, heh. Anyways yeah if he doesn't EX Messiah or EX Snake Strike (which is punishable but just saying it makes CU miss) he has to block 2-3 hits. However it's worth noting you are in range of U1 or U2 when doing this setup. In addition, in a frame perfect scenario Rufus can actually punish you with a crLP if you do the crHP - HP CU from as close as possibl without a jump in, I.E. just walk up till you're pushing Rufus and do crHP xx HP CU and this is with Rufus quick rising as fast as possible.

    It's SUPER hard to do by hand, it took me dozens of tries to get it once but when doing it with tool assistance I got it every time so it wasn't a fluke.

    Also I did some tests and unless I screwed up it looks like you can delay quick rise as much as 10F
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Yeah obviously both ultras will beat it and so will red focus. I wonder if there is a middle ground then where Cody can delay the CU long enough to beat both normal and delayed quick rise. You'd think it must be possible given the number of active frames. Of course in that situation you would presumably get more than 1 hit and juggle possibilities would be reduced.

    Did you try out delay quick rise with the corner setup? After heavy CU backdash then light rocks.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Yeah obviously both ultras will beat it and so will red focus. I wonder if there is a middle ground then where Cody can delay the CU long enough to beat both normal and delayed quick rise. You'd think it must be possible given the number of active frames. Of course in that situation you would presumably get more than 1 hit and juggle possibilities would be reduced.

    Did you try out delay quick rise with the corner setup? After heavy CU backdash then light rocks.

    As far as I can tell HP - HP CU - Backdash - LP Rocks isn't a meaty setup in the corner. I can do Rufus' farMP and beat the rocks if I QR as fast as possible. You sure that is the right setup?
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Eternal wrote: »
    As far as I can tell HP - HP CU - Backdash - LP Rocks isn't a meaty setup in the corner. I can do Rufus' farMP and beat the rocks if I QR as fast as possible. You sure that is the right setup?

    Yeah he can, but don't you think it's kind of counter-intuitive to do that on the fly? You can also do mp CU instead which will be meaty and also beats messiah, but it loses to delay quick rise messiah.

    I was just trying mid-screen hp CU > t.mp > mp CU and it seems to beat both regular and delay quick rise > messiah. Can you confirm?
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited August 2015
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    As far as I can tell HP - HP CU - Backdash - LP Rocks isn't a meaty setup in the corner. I can do Rufus' farMP and beat the rocks if I QR as fast as possible. You sure that is the right setup?

    Yeah he can, but don't you think it's kind of counter-intuitive to do that on the fly? You can also do mp CU instead which will be meaty and also beats messiah, but it loses to delay quick rise messiah.

    I was just trying mid-screen hp CU > t.mp > mp CU and it seems to beat both regular and delay quick rise > messiah. Can you confirm?

    Of course it's counter intuitive but I thought you were testing a meaty setup, my point was it's not meaty there is at least an ~8F delay before it hits.

    As for your combo, using tool assistance for both Cody and Rufus: 4F window Rufus can quick rise and EX Messiah will beat MP CU. In addition no matter when Rufus quick rises, if he stand OR crouch blocks you're in range of FarMP and if he crouch blocks you're also in range of FarLP, both of which lead to EX Galactic Tornado - EX FADC - Ultra if the guy is confident in his execution.
    Post edited by Eternal on
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    edited August 2015
    Eternal wrote: »
    Of course it's counter intuitive but I thought you were testing a meaty setup, my point was it's not meaty there is at least an ~8F delay before it hits.

    No, it was in the notes for the original video as an alternative setup to bait/beat messiah.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited August 2015
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    Of course it's counter intuitive but I thought you were testing a meaty setup, my point was it's not meaty there is at least an ~8F delay before it hits.

    No, it was in the notes for the original video as an alternative setup to bait/beat messiah.

    I didn't read the notes I only watched embedded. Anyways you can delay the wakeup ~5F and beat the fireball with EX Messiah
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited August 2015
    I did the same thing I did earlier but I screwed up the brightness so it's a little harder to see, my bad.

    Here is close normals and knife normals (excluding farMK difference, forgot to do it)

    q5COY95.png
    mDXurud.png

    Interesting to see how much forward Cody moves when he does closeHK, it's probably part of why it's not that great vs crossups.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Great stuff. If only it went a bit further those beefy double kcrhp combos would be a lot more common ;)

  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
  • RammaRamma Team Blockstring Joined: Posts: 1,511
    edited August 2015
    I got more requests to do Evil Ryu than any other character, and now that I'm done with the video I don't understand why. The match is really straight forward. If it wasn't finished, I might have just scrapped it tbh.

    Post edited by Ramma on
    PSN/XBL: RammaCricket | CFN: BS_Ramma
    SFV: Cammy/Necalli | Fun Subs: Ryu, Alex, Gief
    USFIV: Cody | Alt: Zangief
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Nice one. Saves me bothering to record vid about punishing hop kick xx ex air tatsu :)
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Great stuff. If only it went a bit further those beefy double kcrhp combos would be a lot more common ;)

    Yeah since it basically requires a jHP/HK vs many chars. Again makes me wish clsMK was a command normal so you could do crHP -> MK -> Criminal Upper. Even better if sLP was +7 >_>

    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Never seen this pass-through before...

  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    I have seen it before actually. A while ago but can't remember when exactly, not common to see.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • SeikanoSeikano zaymax/yungzay Joined: Posts: 166
    I was definitely surprised by that, and was even more thrown off that it all combo'd! It was cool, haha.
  • RammaRamma Team Blockstring Joined: Posts: 1,511
    General tips vs Mr. Bipson.




    I'm probably going to do one more of these for Decapre, and that'll probably be it.
    PSN/XBL: RammaCricket | CFN: BS_Ramma
    SFV: Cammy/Necalli | Fun Subs: Ryu, Alex, Gief
    USFIV: Cody | Alt: Zangief
  • C100C100 Turn tha beat back! Joined: Posts: 161
    Thanks for the videos @Ramma. These tips really do help alot.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Ramma wrote: »
    I'm probably going to do one more of these for Decapre, and that'll probably be it.

    Any particular reason why you're stopping?
  • RammaRamma Team Blockstring Joined: Posts: 1,511
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Ramma wrote: »
    I'm probably going to do one more of these for Decapre, and that'll probably be it.

    Any particular reason why you're stopping?

    SFV basically. I don't see SFV going the SFxT route and failing. I expect USFIV (and Cody) to be pretty dead not too far after the SFV release. Also, I'm starting back up at work, so play/recording time is about to drop down to 20%. I made 3 match-up videos this month while basically on summer break. I just won't have the time to make many more between now and then.

    I have a Poison video in the works, but it's more of an odds and ends video...not a match-up video.

    I certainly wouldn't do all 43 match-ups anyway. I'd do Rose, Rolento, Decapre, Zangief, Hugo, Viper...maybe Sim?


    Videos are about 4 minutes long, so I'd need content worth putting in there. There's plenty of tech in the Decapre match.
    PSN/XBL: RammaCricket | CFN: BS_Ramma
    SFV: Cammy/Necalli | Fun Subs: Ryu, Alex, Gief
    USFIV: Cody | Alt: Zangief
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Neat, but isn't clsHP - clsMP - crHP better?
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    The description clearly states there's not much point to this. Having said that, I suspect cl.hp cl.hp U2 is probably optimal.
  • RammaRamma Team Blockstring Joined: Posts: 1,511
    edited October 2015
    Nicely done Grounded.

    Beat me to it lol.

    I'm putting an odds and ends video of Poison/Cody slowly but surely.


    Yeah, the st. HP > st. HP thing is great if you have U2. It's a nice chunk of meterless damage. If you can land a meaty...ch...st. HP :D
    PSN/XBL: RammaCricket | CFN: BS_Ramma
    SFV: Cammy/Necalli | Fun Subs: Ryu, Alex, Gief
    USFIV: Cody | Alt: Zangief
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Ramma wrote: »
    Nicely done Grounded.

    Put it in the video anyway if you want, I just found it by chance in training mode the other day.

    Meaty counter hits aren't that unlikely - like I said in the description, everyone wakes up with jab these days... ;)

  • Packz93Packz93 Joined: Posts: 38
    U2 shouldn't even be used in that matchup lol
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Packz93 wrote: »
    U2 shouldn't even be used in that matchup lol

    Why not? Not every Poison plays the same - I'm sure you could find players whose styles would justify either ultra.
  • Canadian_sk8terCanadian_sk8ter Ian Joined: Posts: 381
    i think it's too hard to react to fireballs for u2. and u1 can stop flip kicks
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    The description clearly states there's not much point to this. Having said that, I suspect cl.hp cl.hp U2 is probably optimal.

    I only watched the embedded video you posted :P
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    i think it's too hard to react to fireballs for u2. and u1 can stop flip kicks

    Reacting to fireballs isn't the only use for U2 though. And you can still do it if she's abusing fireball loops in the corner for pressure. Besides, reacting to flip kick with U1 isn't exactly easy either, especially online.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Eternal wrote: »
    I only watched the embedded video you posted :P

    The forum embeds it automatically. If it were up to me it would just be a link!

  • Packz93Packz93 Joined: Posts: 38
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Packz93 wrote: »
    U2 shouldn't even be used in that matchup lol

    Why not? Not every Poison plays the same - I'm sure you could find players whose styles would justify either ultra.

    Because u2 is used to deter Poison from throwing fireballs. It's an anti fireball ultra however, u2 is terrible against slow fireballs unless you activate it just in front of the fireball (the dust hits the fireball allowing the opponent to block in time).

    There's no way to know on start up which fireball strength she is using and because of the general range you counter fireballs with u2 from, it's quite a risky read.

    This doesn't happen if you react to fireballs with u1 though, granted you need to be a lot closer.

    I'm aware there are other uses with u2 but that's universal usage not matchup specific.

    U1 allows for easier hit confirms and is guaranteed to counter fireballs if you react to one, regardless of the strength used. Can be used to make the poison scared to cancel into flipkicks as well.

    U2 is a very good universal pick for pretty much all matchups though just because of its versatility.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Packz93 wrote: »
    I'm aware there are other uses with u2 but that's universal usage not matchup specific.

    Are you saying you pick U1 against Poison at character select regardless of the player you're facing? Maybe Poison isn't the best example but there must be loads of instances where you don't take the 'standard' ultra for a matchup either because you know you can exploit something against a particular player or (like me) you're just not having success with the go-to ultra for whatever reason.
  • Packz93Packz93 Joined: Posts: 38
    GroundedSF wrote: »
    Packz93 wrote: »
    I'm aware there are other uses with u2 but that's universal usage not matchup specific.

    Are you saying you pick U1 against Poison at character select regardless of the player you're facing? Maybe Poison isn't the best example but there must be loads of instances where you don't take the 'standard' ultra for a matchup either because you know you can exploit something against a particular player or (like me) you're just not having success with the go-to ultra for whatever reason.

    Nope. Never. I pick the ultra which is best for the matchup, some matchups you can use either ultra, it's down to preference (eg Boxer).

    If I "know" the player and feel I can exploit them because I'm used to their playstyle, i'll just do so during the match but the ultra remains whichever one is better for the matchup.

    Using ultras against certain players, because you know them, will backfire as soon as you play a different player, same character that plays completely different. Using the best ultra for the matchup won't ever backfire though.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited October 2015
    I know Ladno and BJ run U2 vs Poison while I think Sasaki uses U1 or mixes between U1 and U2, he used U1 exclusively in his matches vs -6 in topanga. Dunno if I've ever seen Chin play vs a Poison at all.

    Just chiming in with comparisons to how everyone plays, don't really have a personal view on this one.

    Topanga has been uploaded to one of those chinese video sites again if you know where to look.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • Packz93Packz93 Joined: Posts: 38
    Eternal wrote: »
    I know Ladno and BJ run U2 vs Poison while I think Sasaki uses U1 or mixes between U1 and U2, he used U1 exclusively in his matches vs -6 in topanga. Dunno if I've ever seen Chin play vs a Poison at all.

    Just chiming in with comparisons to how everyone plays, don't really have a personal view on this one.

    Topanga has been uploaded to one of those chinese video sites again if you know where to look.

    Because she is a fireball character, the logical ultra would be u2. When you get a better understanding of the matchup however, you will soon realise u1 is a lot better. Even for going through fireballs.

    The same thing with the Guile matchup. U1 is much more consistent to go through fireballs with.

    I bought topanga. I saw Sasaki vs -6. Sick match.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited October 2015
    Packz93 wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    I know Ladno and BJ run U2 vs Poison while I think Sasaki uses U1 or mixes between U1 and U2, he used U1 exclusively in his matches vs -6 in topanga. Dunno if I've ever seen Chin play vs a Poison at all.

    Just chiming in with comparisons to how everyone plays, don't really have a personal view on this one.

    Topanga has been uploaded to one of those chinese video sites again if you know where to look.

    Because she is a fireball character, the logical ultra would be u2. When you get a better understanding of the matchup however, you will soon realise u1 is a lot better. Even for going through fireballs.

    The same thing with the Guile matchup. U1 is much more consistent to go through fireballs with.

    I bought topanga. I saw Sasaki vs -6. Sick match.

    Oddly Sasaki used to usually run U1 in the Guile MU back in older versions but the limited stuff I've seen of him post-USF4 (not a lot of vids out there of him) he runs U2 now. there is a 20 minute endless match of him vs Negitoro's Guile where he runs only U2. I think he does that because of F+MP into U2 more than anything though.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 622
    Packz93 wrote: »
    Using ultras against certain players, because you know them, will backfire as soon as you play a different player, same character that plays completely different. Using the best ultra for the matchup won't ever backfire though.

    Surely that's the same as any player-based strategy? It'll only backfire if you make assumptions about playstyle before verifying it. And isn't the 'best ultra' predicated on the opponent? Some opponents will make it very difficult for you to use the typical choice of Ultra if they know what they're doing, as I'm sure you're aware given the caliber of players you get to play against regularly. Equally some opponents will have playstyles or habits that go against the standard 'optimal' way to play a particular match-up, which means you can't necessarily make decisions based on the 'correct' way the match-up should be played.
  • Canadian_sk8terCanadian_sk8ter Ian Joined: Posts: 381
    hey guys just got back from canada cup. I didn't make it out of pools but i did beat valle's hugo. I'll post the vid here when I can
  • HeavensCloudHeavensCloud Joined: Posts: 731
    hey guys just got back from canada cup. I didn't make it out of pools but i did beat valle's hugo. I'll post the vid here when I can

    I saw you on stream, you zoned him out well.
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