"Hey! Let's do this for real." Concept/Discovery/Match-up Videos

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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    @Tenchi‌
    The reason you add 1F to moves is because players get confused about startup otherwise.

    Cody's crHP for exampleis 7/3/16, the total frame count isn't 26F, it's 25F. Because the 3F is the ALL of the active frames. However 7F is all of the startup frames overlapping with the 1st active frame. People get confused if it's 6/3/16 (since technically it's 6F startup, 3F active, 16F recover) because then they can't punish -6F on block moves since it's still not active till 7F. So it was changed to list it that way.

    Now, on to other stuff.

    With moves like criminal upper you can't just add up all of the active frames because it's a multihit move. You calculate hit/blockstun based on the time from the last hit until recovered. Whenever an attack is blocked/hit it overrides the previous attack's hit/blockstun. It doesn't add to it. Thus the blockstun you need to be calculating is based on the frame advantage vs the time since the final tornado hit.

    In conclusion: The way you were calculating FADC was faulty because you didn't take into consideration the fact it's a multihit move :p

    Also a FADC doesn't occur instantly, you have to add in the frames for the focus cancel itself. It's not just 18F because that's ONLY the dash. If you do crHP - EX FADC you'll find you're -4F on block even though crHP has 18F of blockstun.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • kdash2k7kdash2k7 Joined: Posts: 26
    "Frame traps are very linear and lose to stand throws all day" & "Lack of a low hit confirm or way to stop backdashing against his block strings."
    This two are the worst, I still get so much trouble to deal with it.
    USF4 didn't bring nothing about it... :(
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269
    My biggest gripe has always been that Cody is billed as a frame trap character but because throws are 3 frames, you generally will get shorted or thrown out of his main frame trap moves. If cl.HP activated a bit further out, maybe it'd help? But it still doesn't prevent cr.LK mashing. Then there's the fact characters who aren't built around frame traps like Cody, do the job better with the same button. (Cammy and Sakura being the biggest offenders with their cl.HP. Sakura's cl.HP being a 3f normal for some reason.)
    I don't got those.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    Shin Oni wrote: »
    My biggest gripe has always been that Cody is billed as a frame trap character but because throws are 3 frames, you generally will get shorted or thrown out of his main frame trap moves. If cl.HP activated a bit further out, maybe it'd help? But it still doesn't prevent cr.LK mashing. Then there's the fact characters who aren't built around frame traps like Cody, do the job better with the same button. (Cammy and Sakura being the biggest offenders with their cl.HP. Sakura's cl.HP being a 3f normal for some reason.)

    The reason Cody gets billed as frame trap character is that is the area he is best at. That is only comparing Cody's options TO HIMSELF. I mean, overall his frame trap game gives him probably the largest (or 2nd largest behind Dudley) bonus when he lands a counterhit but other than getting counterhits he isn't really doing anything when he frame traps. His throws are all average damage, he has no real threat behind the buttons to make you flinch. He can't overhead combo you (Makoto/Dudley/Ibuki). He doesn't have a chip tool that keeps pressure going (Yun, Yang, Dudley, Ibuki, Rufus, Sakura, Dan, Guy). He doesn't have the ability to make your moves whiff with safe/fast mobility tools (that sometimes also beat stand/crouch tech) (Cammy, Yun, Yang, Rufus, Guy, Dudley, Sakura, Dan, Ibuki, Fei). He doesn't bring the threat of a command throw (Abel, Yun, Fei, Makoto, Yang) or strong throw setups (Rufus, Sakura, Cammy, Fei, Yun, Makoto, Abel, Dudley)

    Recently I've basically realized that there is literally no reason anyone should be playing Cody over EITHER Dudley or Evil Ryu. If you play those 2 characters you will do better in every match than Cody would with a similar gameplan. Dudley coves every anti-zoning match better, most dive kick matches and some footsie matches and frame traps better and has better wake up and more damage. Evil Ryu covers the matchups where you need to zone (Grapplers) better than Cody, has better footsies, does more damage and has better wakeup.

    I can't think of one matchup that you wouldn't do better with either of those 2. TBH You could probably JUST play Dudley and only use Evil Ryu for Zangief and you'd do better. Or JUST play Evil Ryu and use Dudley for Sagat/Gouken and you'd do better.

    I know it's a bit pessimistic but It's how I've felt alot lately. I think Cody has a lot of good stuff but he just doesn't stack up to other characters in his category. Every other character oriented around frame traps/high damage/footsies does more damage / frame traps better/ and has more mobility than him. Cody is just too "average"
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 632
    Eternal wrote: »
    I know it's a bit pessimistic but It's how I've felt alot lately. I think Cody has a lot of good stuff but he just doesn't stack up to other characters in his category. Every other character oriented around frame traps/high damage/footsies does more damage / frame traps better/ and has more mobility than him. Cody is just too "average"

    Agree with everything, except that he isn't even average any more. I think every character you've listed there except Dan does better than Cody in this game, which kind of makes him below average by default!

  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269
    Eternal wrote: »
    cody's average

    unfortunately I agree. Dudley and E.Ryu excel in everything Cody either could do or should do as well as them in either category. Still a fun character, but he has to work twice as hard because his tools are sub par or lacking where characters like Dudley and E.Ryu either have or cover with something else.
    I don't got those.
  • C100C100 Turn tha beat back! Joined: Posts: 163
    Yea, I guess you can say he's average, but I believe he can be viable. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks that or maybe I'm naïve but I feel like he can do well in tournaments.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    C100 wrote: »
    Yea, I guess you can say he's average, but I believe he can be viable. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks that or maybe I'm naïve but I feel like he can do well in tournaments.

    The thing that makes him viable in tournaments and/or sets is that he only has a couple of really bad matchups. Like you meet a Yun or Cammy or Rufus or Abel or Akuma it's going to be a tough match. You might struggle if you meet a Dhalsim, Chun or Guile too though perhaps not as much as those MUs his momentum can help win him a match, especially Dhalsim due to Sim's poor wakeup. Otherwise he is either going even or just slightly losing his MUs.

    Because of this he is able to stand on his ground and if you're skilled enough as a player it's possible to overcome these matchups by simply being a stronger player (see: Momochi, he's done a lot better with Ken/Juri than he ever did with Cody but even with Cody he was able to make top 8/16 pretty damn consistently just because he is SUCH a good player)

    Even with Cody's really bad MUs like Yun/Rufus/Cammy you can win on momentum, and the matchups still aren't as bad as some of characters like Dhalsim or Honda's bad matchups. Being a momentum character can carry you pretty far in tournaments too, if you are making the right reads you can quickly end rounds before the opponent has time to adjust. A slower paced character the opponent might have time to pull them selves together.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269
    Cody's hella viable in tournament. As Eternal pointed out, have to be a strong player to make up the other half Cody lacks/excels in. He still needs help obviously but it's not like he doesn't have the tools needed to fend off most of the cast. The problem is that if you don't get started in most of your bad matchups, you generally lose. If you get started but make wrong reads, it's dragging out a match that could be over. It's also giving the other player a chance to turn things against you.
    I don't got those.
  • PredatorFTWPredatorFTW Mariachi Joined: Posts: 81
    The major problem with Cody is that his bad matchups are some popular characters like Cammy.
    JA-JA! *throws a taco*
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 632
    Surely if Cody requires you to be a strong player to make up for his issues, you're still going to run into trouble when you come up against equally strong players later in the tournament? Although it might sometimes seem like a positive that he can steamroll opponents when he gets going, the reverse is also true. To me that indicates a high level of variance in what can happen in any given matchup, which is something you really don't want in a tournament character, especially if its short sets and 2 losses and out. If you're relying on reads you need longer sets, or a sequence of opponents you have experience against. Momochi did well with placing with Cody, but you would think he got through early rounds based on his skill advantage over opponents, and then in the later rounds he'd generally be facing players he'd played before and could leverage reads etc. to a higher degree.

    Another issue with the bad matchups, IMO at least, is that generally the gameplan required to beat Cody is so straightforward that even mid-level players will be able to execute it consistently. On the flipside, I think there is definitely still a broad lack of understanding of how Cody functions, so you might be able to skate through some matches based on opponent's lack of familiarity with the character. Ultimately though, finishing matches quickly isn't going to help much in the long run - it's consistency that matters, and I still think it's all too easy for Cody to end up in situations which he can't fight his way out of. Eternal said it in another post - he rarely finds himself in the position of being able to dominate a match.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    He is also rarely in a position he lacks an option. He may not dominate an opponents gameplan but he has a tool to at least potentially MANAGE it. As Seth Killian said "Cody has ways to fight this, just not really ways to dominate it" that was his exact statement during the Momochi/Infiltration matchup at NCR. Cody has a tool to difuse almost any situation and stop it. It's just he can't do much else BUT stop it. He can't turn that tool into an advantage he just stops the opponents option. Jump back LP/LK for dive kicks is a great example. Cody isn't gaining anything. He maybe does 40 or 50 damage but he puts himself closer to the corner. That particular dive kick was managed but he didn't really do anything to prevent the next one or set himself up to be in a position where he can use his strengths after stopping the dive kick. All he did was stop 1 dive kick and that's it.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 632
    Yeah, he has options... but having options in this game isn't enough, especially if using them doesn't improve your situation, or just exchanges one bad situation for another!

    I would also disagree that he is 'rarely in a position he lacks an option'. I think there are plenty of characters that can put him in a position where all of his options except blocking are weak... and that just opens him up even more to being thrown, or caught with a high/low mixup because the opponent doesn't fear the reversal. And why should they? It's also a major issue that in so many situations his best option would be EX Zonk, but as we all know it's just not going to be available a lot of the time.

    Obviously it's possible for Cody to win a tournament, but is that really saying anything? Any character could under the right circumstances - character representation, pathway through the bracket and so on. I think the fact that Momochi has all but dropped him says everything.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    Kelvin believes Cody is one of Hugo's best matchups

    http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/share/?user=kelvinjeon1&char=929

    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 632
    I agree with him... but then we've already had the Hugo debate!
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269
    I actually wanted to ask him why because I don't agree. I think it's even if anything. Hugo gets a bit of an advantage once he knocks Cody down but Cody can literally keep Hugo at bay.
    I don't got those.
  • PredatorFTWPredatorFTW Mariachi Joined: Posts: 81
    JA-JA! *throws a taco*
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269

    in the unfavorable piece, I think E.Ryu/sim/Abel/viper are even. Yun is another I with hugo where Cody can keep up until he gets knocked down. He doesn't outright lose, but you are losing if you get knocked down.

    I'm kinda eh on Yang. I don't think it's unfavorable but Yang can play footsies and doesn't rely on his divekick as much. He can walk cody down though.

    I really don't like how these are being done though because it's all just showing numbers and no thorough explanation for their reasonings of why it's good/even/bad. It's kinda why I liked when Fchamp did a stream on the Marvel 3 tiers explaining why he thought everyone was where they were.
    I don't got those.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 632
    edited September 2014
    Shin Oni wrote: »
    Yun is another I with hugo where Cody can keep up until he gets knocked down. He doesn't outright lose, but you are losing if you get knocked down.

    You're going to get knocked down in the majority of matches though, it's just not feasible to avoid that. Same goes with Hugo.

  • PredatorFTWPredatorFTW Mariachi Joined: Posts: 81
    They are reading the comments and explaining their opinions
    JA-JA! *throws a taco*
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    Shin Oni wrote: »
    I actually wanted to ask him why because I don't agree. I think it's even if anything. Hugo gets a bit of an advantage once he knocks Cody down but Cody can literally keep Hugo at bay.
    Exnami:Wait, the Cody matchup is in Favor of Hugo? As a Cody main, my opinion was that the matchup was at least 6-4 in Cody's favor. I find it odd since Kelvin has some decent Cody experience with BJ being his younger brother but BJ doesn't really play the the zoning style of Cody very much.

    Hugo is especially easy to anti air with HK ruffian kick with his floaty jump, and Bingo is a great poke against hugo that remains relatively unpunishable by Hugos normals. I'm curious to hear why Kelvin thinks it's in Hugo's favor
    -
    KelvinJeon:
    At first, I thought it was in Cody's favor as well. But after spending alot of time against the character, i changed my mind.

    First of all, playing rush-down or zoning style character doesn't mean all that much because my main goal is to force you to turtle/zone. BJ change his style dramatically, when he plays against me (there are videos out there floating around)

    You are right in terms of AA with ruffian, but there's absolutely not reason for me to jump into cody. Bingo is ok, but I think it's still a huge risk due to slow start up and super punishable on block. I would suggest that you use mk ruffian (max distance) because it comes out faster and much more difficult to try to bait it out with jumps. I will leave this up to you to decide.

    Against cody, I just play footsies with cr.lk until i get a CH or a KD. My main goal is to try Cody to the corner and never let him out. Since Cody is relatively big character, it's very easy to play footsies against him with cr.lk as well. Also, once Cody is knocked down, he has to take great risks for most times to get out. Having super slow walk speed doesn't help him with the match up either.


    Shin Oni wrote: »

    in the unfavorable piece, I think E.Ryu/sim/Abel/viper are even. Yun is another I with hugo where Cody can keep up until he gets knocked down. He doesn't outright lose, but you are losing if you get knocked down.

    I'm kinda eh on Yang. I don't think it's unfavorable but Yang can play footsies and doesn't rely on his divekick as much. He can walk cody down though.

    I really don't like how these are being done though because it's all just showing numbers and no thorough explanation for their reasonings of why it's good/even/bad. It's kinda why I liked when Fchamp did a stream on the Marvel 3 tiers explaining why he thought everyone was where they were.

    Here is the reason why BJ's numbers are like they are:
    BJUnchained:
    Generally, I like to believe there's too much room in terms of player skill and undiscovered tech to easily declare that a match isn't 5-5. But some characters definitely have VERY convincing reasons to be considered a disadvantage/advantage.

    Basically, he puts player skill into account on his tier list and doesn't rate anything worse than 6-4 and unless it's a blatantly bad MU it's a 5-5. You know, all of the things you shouldn't do in a tier list.

    I've included all of the explanations for his MU numbers in the tier list discussion in the general section: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/9881454/#Comment_9881454
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269
    I'm with Kelvin with the reasoning but I still think that match is fairly even. Everyone will have their own opinions though.

    as for BJ, I dunno. I need more than just that bit. Player skill should always be at the top when talking tier lists. But BJ also never uses the knife outside of throwing it like every other Cody player. This also makes me wonder how often BJ uses the knife when he's playing Kelvin and if the knife is even an included factor as a whole. Because I get the impression it's just as ignored as it is when he plays Cody.
    I don't got those.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    If you follow my link you'll read several break downs of a few matches...

    He specifically discussed the knife vs Dudley...
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • bjUNCHAINEDbjUNCHAINED Joined: Posts: 5
    Eternal wrote: »
    Basically, he puts player skill into account on his tier list and doesn't rate anything worse than 6-4 and unless it's a blatantly bad MU it's a 5-5. You know, all of the things you shouldn't do in a tier list.

    No one's playing arcade mode against the cpu, so player skill is taken into account. Two very powerful players will usually end up 5-5 because their reads often overcomes slight disadvantages. Finally, a 6-4 denotes significant advantage since it's hard to deviate past 5-5 with strong players. A different interpretation of a "tier list" (which is really just a match-up chart) doesn't mean it's wrong.

    The numbers stand as I put them because my past experiences playing the match-ups have made me believe so.

    P.S.
    Working on knifing more! I did a bit during WCW teams.
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269
    Eternal wrote: »
    If you follow my link you'll read several break downs of a few matches...

    He specifically discussed the knife vs Dudley...

    yea don't mind me. I saw the post after I posted.
    I don't got those.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    Eternal wrote: »
    Basically, he puts player skill into account on his tier list and doesn't rate anything worse than 6-4 and unless it's a blatantly bad MU it's a 5-5. You know, all of the things you shouldn't do in a tier list.

    No one's playing arcade mode against the cpu, so player skill is taken into account. Two very powerful players will usually end up 5-5 because their reads often overcomes slight disadvantages. Finally, a 6-4 denotes significant advantage since it's hard to deviate past 5-5 with strong players. A different interpretation of a "tier list" (which is really just a match-up chart) doesn't mean it's wrong.

    The numbers stand as I put them because my past experiences playing the match-ups have made me believe so.

    P.S.
    Working on knifing more! I did a bit during WCW teams.

    Tier charts shouldn't take player skill into account. Because it's supposed to be based entirely on two characters options in a match of EQUAL skill. It's not "How does BJUnchained do vs Veloc1raptor in the Gouken match" it's "How does Cody's tools match up vs Gouken's and what are his options?"

    You add player skill in we need to start claiming Rufus is the best character in AE2012 because he had the best results.

    Alioune and I have had discussions about this, he thinks placements and results matter EVEN LESS than I do in terms of indications of strengths.

    If you are playing the matchup vs the opponent then you should be doing a tier list based on players. E.G. "BJ Unchained vs Snakeyez is a 5-5" :p

    Adding in an uncalcuable piece of data that is subject to interpretation (Skill) removes all objectivity and scientific aspects of a tier list. Tier lists aren't supposed to be ART.

    P.S. if 6-4 denotes "significant advantage" what is the point of 7-3? Is that "Extreme advantage" then what is 8-2 and 9-1 and 10-0 are all of them "Unwinnable"? 6-4 is too much of a catchall these days. It's lead to people saying things like "5.5-4.5" or "barely 5.5 but an advantage" i.e. "5.25"

    6-4 = Advantage
    7-3 = Significant Advantage
    8-2 = Extremely significant advantage
    9-1 = Near unwinnable
    10-0 = Unwinnable.

    That is how it used to work AFAIK. Ultradavid and I have discussed that 6-4s are used too much. Veserius and I also believe there are a lot more 7-3s than people admit.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • bjUNCHAINEDbjUNCHAINED Joined: Posts: 5
    edited September 2014
    My tier list reads like so. Ken vs. Cody is listed 5-5. Therefore, if I played 10 games withone I deem an equal/close skill level, I predict the score will average out to 5-5. If I fight against a Rufus player of similar skill level, then I predict the score average out 6-4. I don't think any match-up will average out to 7-3.

    Thanks for your perspective on tier lists. It's quite interesting and certainly different from mine
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    I agree with your analyzations of how the matchups play, I just disagree with your numbers (slightly) and heavily disagree with bringing skill into the equation.

    Human aspect yeah, things like ability to react to a situation, or condition an opponent. These are things that should be taken into account BUT should be considered equal when discussing matchups. You should take your experiences and then objectively analyze how both players played the match, where you falters and what your options were and how the opponent could have played better.

    Objectivity should always be kept when discussing matchups. You lose objectivity there is no point to a MU chart because it's just a personal experiences chart and that is of no value to anyone but yourself.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • bjUNCHAINEDbjUNCHAINED Joined: Posts: 5
    edited September 2014
    The point of each person getting to make their own match-up chart is to share their individual experiences. If you want hard, objective numbers, I believe you already have what you're looking for: http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/character/cody/

    You're beating a dead horse and I don't see the point in discussing this any further. Please feel free to ignore my input if it doesn't fit your fancy!
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    I just said I agreed with your analysis of the tools and insight in regards to how to best play the matchups. Just not your way your way of denoting numbers into a matchup chart or the idea of assuming one player is more skilled than the other being how to analyze the objective ability to win when skills ARE equal. I asked james about it and he agreed.




    I think your concept is an outlier from the standard.
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  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 632
    Anyone else care to venture their own lists? I can't decide on a lot of them, but here we go anyway: http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/share/?user=GroundedSF&char=34
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269
    Not gonna make an account on eventhubs so will just do it here. Always down to discuss anything as it isn't set in stone and there are matches that I don't have the best experiences in. (and I could possibly just be missing things.) But that's the point of these things.

    6-4 (Cody's Favor)
    Dan
    Decapre
    Gouken
    Rolento
    Rose

    5.5 - 4.5 (Slight Advantage)
    Thawk
    E. Honda
    Juri
    M. Bison

    5-5
    Adon
    Balrog
    Blanka
    Cammy
    Chun Li
    Deejay
    Dudley
    Elena
    Fei Long
    Gen
    Guile
    Guy
    Hakan
    Hugo
    Ken
    Makoto
    Oni
    Poison
    Ryu
    Sakura
    Seth
    Vega
    C. Viper
    Dhalsim
    Evil Ryu
    Ibuki
    Abel

    4.5 - 5.5 (Slight Disadvantage)
    Sagat
    Yun
    Yang
    Zangief

    4-6 (Opponent's Favor)
    Akuma
    El Fuerte
    Rufus

    I added the .5 for slight advantage/disadvantage as these matches can sway in either direction depending. To be a bit more detailed, lets start off with the advantages towards cody

    T.Hawk
    Still good for Cody but T.Hawk now has a walkspeed buff, condor spire buff, and a special cancel normal in the form of cr.Mk. Cody can't run forever first off. He can keep him at bay but the difference here compared to say Gief is that T.Hawk has normals to match. Now that he has a shotoish cr.mk that leads into a mixup on a clean hit, It's a guessing game if the T.Hawk gets in your head. Then there's ambiguous body splash on knockdown. He also has a DP to add on to his 360s just as an option if he so feels to use it. Knife helps just as with any grappler match. The usual punishes are still there. (unsafe dives blocked are MK ruffian, Ex ruffian and U2 with meter.) T.Hawk has a floaty jump so ideally you have time to set up HK ruffian even if he's going for dive thanks to its active frames.

    E.Honda
    When you get the lead, Honda HAS to take risks to get it back. Lots of throwing rocks and fake rocks for Honda to do something. Now that EX headbutt is extremely punishable on block now, it's a free MK ruffian and U2. (EX ruffian works also IIRC). Here's another time knife helps keep your neutral on point and Cody's defense like a wall. When you don't have the life lead though, it's a matter of throwing rocks or getting the knife to pressure him with a bit of chip to try and get it back. Focus non reversal butt splashes if they ever come (free lvl2 crumple and if it crosses up, dash.) if you don't like focus, cr.MK is also an answer.

    Juri
    While she is definitely a better character, I still say Cody can give her trouble. You have options around fireballs just as she has options around rocks. Probably the biggest thing that stands out is Juri's cr.MK. Low profile far reaching special cancel normal that's also red focusable. This button will annoy anyone. I'm sure I need more experience but midscreen is where Cody wants this match. If she has you in the corner for her pressure things get a bit harder.

    M.Bison
    I still don't like this match considering I have to play this a lot in south florida but It's not a match Cody struggles in at all. He has tools to get the life lead and keep the life lead from bison. Rocks destroys a lot of Bison's neutral when he has no meter because he's either forced to guess. Take the possible chip or risk a jump in. His floaty jump is asked to be AA with any of Cody's options. BJ pretty much stated the most obvious (blocked EX psycho leads to EX ruffian or U2, devil's reverse gets beat by cr.MK, cr.MK stuffing the main normals.) This match also requires a lot of cr.lp buffered into MK ruffian to catch any of bison's limbs sticking out or a scissors. It scores you a soft knockdown and your chance to start pressure. Here's another match the knife does well in.

    As for slight disadvantages

    Sagat
    The biggest thing with this is getting through Tiger Shots. You'll lose most of your life from just trying to get in. But once Cody's in, Sagat struggles. Lots of walking and blocking. Rocks are an option but only from far and far mid range. Outside of that you're better off blocking mid range and up close you can challenge with cr.mk. cr.MK also beats tiger knee if you have the reactions to see them in a string. Sometimes helps to pick up the knife just so you can get the better ranged s.mk. Cody doesn't have too much of an answer to sagat's s.MK but it's possible to whiff punish with cr.MP. I have to check and see cr.MP with the knife as it's another good mid poke due to his hurtbox being pushed back so far. But the problem with the normal is that he's considered standing. Not winnable. Just tough getting in and staying in.

    Yun
    I remember seeing Perfect Legend talking about how Cody beats everything Yun can do. While that's true, it's still not a favorable match just because Cody gets knocked down and has no wakeup options. It's not flat out bad but it is rough. Rocks are risky anywhere not full screen. You know Yun wants and will jump on you so you have to be ready and on point with AAs if it comes to it. Chances are you're going to mess up and he's in, does a combo, knocks you down, and the guessing begins. At that point it's a matter of knowing Yun's tools and how the player plays. Generally in matches like these where rocks are risky because they can either walk you down faster than you can throw, or because they have ways around rocks, I go for the knife just to see what they do. You lose special cancel normals to play footsies/whiff punishing. You still have a solid AA. Twins have low stun and you still get a decent amount of stun with the knife. (plus cr.LK>LP Upper>knife normal may not be much but helps for extra damage/stun)

    Yang
    Yang I wasn't (and honestly) still not too sure where to put. He doesn't dominate as badly as his brother because he doesn't rely on divekicks as much. But he has a better ground game with footsies and he can walk Cody down with no problem. Plus he has a bunch of mixups and gimmicky setups that if you don't know, will throw you off, reset you, and either stun or close to stunning you. But Cody's ground game and normals aren't a slouch either. Which is why I don't think it's relatively bad or slightly in Yang's favor. I think it comes down to who knows the other character more along with better footsies/neutral game.

    Zangief
    I know we briefly talked about this not too long ago and I believe it was comparing Cody to say Dudley on how they both do against grapplers. Since it's' been somewhat discussed I won't go over it again since most of the points still stand. Cody can keep Gief at bay to some extent until he gets grabbed/knockdown/whatever. Then it's a big fat good luck since all his reversal options either lose to a normal or get grabbed for free. Jumping out does no good because Lariat. Cody gets into the corner and you basically have to take risk to get out. (and more than likely you'll get out and still take damage) Rocks/fake rocks help. Knife IMO definately helps. Keep your AA game on point and make sure to punish any EX green hand with U2 if you have the meter. (and if you don't, cr.LK>MK ruffian.)

    Akuma, Elf, and Rufus are pretty given on why they're unfavorable. 2/3 have vortexes that revolve around crappy wakeup and delayed wakeup only helps so much. Rufus will annoy you with divekick pressure and hoping you crouch tech. All 3 leading to knockdowns you generally have to guess everytime. While Cody has some options out of the route of vortex the character goes for, it's a risk and a matter of a hard guess.

    I moved Rose and rolento up in favorable for Cody. Rose IMO is forced to play footsies with Cody before she can think about doing a normal>special because they can be punished with zonk in between the string. Unsafe drills lead to cr.lk>MK ruffian as the safest route. U2 can also be thrown in between norma>spark/drill. Rose backdash gets OSed by slide/MK ruffian/F+MK/U2 also. EX spiral I know loses to U2 but I don't remember if slide also still works against buffed EX spiral. I just don't it's that great for Rose. She has to respect cody's options whereas Cody doesn't have to respect her options.

    Rolento...lol. Rolento's wakeup is probably worse than Cody's wakeup and that's saying a lot. It's been awhile since i've done things against Rolento's wakeup but if he does command flip and you have U2, go for it. EX wall jump is very bad. If he's in the corner and he does it, you can HK Ruffian. midscreen just poke him with an air to air normal. This is pretty ground based seeing you both have great AA options. Rolento's definitely more mobile but Cody doesn't need to really go to Rolento. Biggest things to worry about if you're throwing rocks mid screen will be slide (cr.HK) and U2 (which just like Cody's U2, is 7 frame startup.)

    again it's something to talk about as everyone won't agree. But just how I feel as of late on some of the not even matchups.
    I don't got those.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    You don't think ANY of Cody's MUs are worse than 4-6? Also Ibuki 5-5?

    The thing about Juri now that I think shifts it to even for sure is that previously you really only had to watch for crMP/crMK once you got to a certain position and she'd push herself out if she was pressuring you. farMP lets her stay in and gives her another button that covers a different position/angle/distance than the other two. Also she can pressure you while crouching now without giving up her LK fireball, and MK+HK Fuhajin gives crazy frame advantage +7 or MORE on block

    All of her buffs hurt Cody's previous midscreen advantage. 4F farLK is a nice "stop that" button when you don't want to commit and a safe check if Cody is walking forward, plus it's always been cancelable. farMP moves her forward safely has a good hitbox, anti airs, and is special cancelable (and does 80 damage). EX Dive kick is safe on block now making EX Dive Kick a threat in footsies, and she has 3 dif angles she can do it in. She now has 2 EX Fireballs that can't be crouched. Anti air EX fireball does 20% more damage. closeLP gives her better pressure than she had before from a dash up or just during normal block strings, also a major damage boost. FarMP gives her a damage boost during footsies as she can convert mid screen meterless from fireballs easier due to forward movement.

    I'd say the only important mid screen loss for her vs Cody was back jump dive kick loss means he can use his focus dash forward more often to gain more ground. Otherwise she got better mid screen and during footsies than before and it was pretty close previously.

    I feel like the ONLY time you have advantage in the MU is when you got her in the corner AND are the one with momentum. That doesn't sound like an overall advantaged mu. She is equal in every other position and much scarier if she has you on defense than if you have her on defense. Plus her EX Pinwheel buff means it wont trade anymore and it was never difficult to punish on block usually before due to EX Ruffian so the vacuum effect isn't a big deal IMO. I think it's 5-5 or in Juri's favor slightly. Not majorly but SLIGHTLY in her favor. I wouldn't be opposed to just calling it 5-5 though.
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  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 632
    Let's have your list then Eternal :)
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited September 2014
    Note, I think 7-3 is "Significant advantage" meaning still winnable still in the fight. I thought Sagat - Gief was 8-2 and Blanka - Hawk was close to a 9-1 in older versions. I prefer to use all of the numbers with equal distancing between them rather than weighting everything around 5-5 to 6-4 and anything 7-3 or beyond being considered nearly unwinnable in a fight between two equal skilled players. 6-4 is a slight advantage. 7-3 is where one character has a strong advantage over the other. 8-2 is where a significantly less skilled/expertised player could pull out a win vs someone who is much better simply because of the character choice. 9-1 is where luck is needed for any chance to win. 10-0 is unwinnable barring outside forces or pure luck.

    6-4
    Gouken (Might be only 5.5-4.5 now, not sure)
    Deejay
    THawk
    M. Bison

    ~5.5-4.5 (Cody adv)
    Adon (might be 5-5 not sure, I think it's slight adv.)
    Dan (Might be 5.5-4.5 Cody adv, the lower hitbox on LK Danku really helped this MU for Dan more than any of Cody's buffs)
    E. Honda (Might be a 6-4. The EX Headbutt nerf helped Cody as did the badstone charging fix. However on the flip side, Honda now can keep up or pass Cody in damage with EX Hands and EX Oicho is throw invincible. Still, tough for Honda to get in and riskier for him to escape. Not sure if it's 6-4 YET)

    5-5
    Rose
    Balrog
    Blanka
    Guy
    Fei Long
    Ryu (The fact crMK - fireball is a true block string from farther and the buff to EX Fireball makes me want to say this is SLIGHTLY in Ryu's favor given the fact those were some of themain things making Cody win, but I feel like the buff to LP Criminal Upper, F+HK airborne and the walk speed buff allow Cody to pressure better help offset it so I feel pretty comfortable calling it 5-5, though I believe Valle thinks it's in Ryu's favor.)
    Dudley (Might turn into 4.5-5.5 in the future. ATM Pretty comfortable saying 5-5.)
    Zangief (Might be 4.5-5.5)
    Juri (Might be 4.5-5.5)
    Makoto (Momentum MU more than anything. I think it will end up developing to be in Makoto's favor due to her EX Fukiage resets and new low hit confirm options and ability to actually get some damage/momentum out of her 3F F+LP which she couldn't in previous versions. ATM I feel comfortable saying 5-5 but it could end up being as bad as a 6-4 if more EX Fuki tech is utilized/found. I feel there is more stuff to be found with it and red focus for her.)

    4.5-5.5 (opp adv)
    Sagat
    Sakura
    Vega
    Chun Li
    Gen (4.5-5.5 Gen IMO, Gen still trouble for Cody on KD and has anti-dwu setups. Still hard to AA a good Gen who switch jump arcs as crossups (esp crane MK) beat all of Cody's AAs, very close to even though)
    Viper (4.5-5.5 Viper adv IMO. As long as Cody doesn't rely too much on hard KD stuff and utilizes his OSes when he does. Still might be 4-6 Viper in the future. crMK buff helped deal with MP TK and IABurn kick stuff in neutral and wakeup as it's safer now. Still tough. Her crMK buff gets A LOT of mileage in this MU and she can now play footsies better with Cody who outclassed her normals but struggled vs her specials previously.)

    Hakan (4.5-5.5 Hakan's damage increases, low hit confirm addition, improved stuff when not oiled, and crossup (though shitty) all hurt Cody in this MU. Knife sMP and crLP - MK Ruffian pretty much only things keeping this MU in check. Loss of throw invincibility on EX CU also hurt.)

    Yang (Every option Cody has to fight Yang's safe options is incredibly risky (except crLK) and/or often barely as rewarding as Yang's safe offense. It's still close but Yang pressures Cody better than Cody pressures Yang, and has better mixups/wakeup. Only time Cody is really at an advantage is if Yang is choosing to stand at about crLK/crMP/sMP range for Cody, but with Yang's dive kick and having the 2nd overall fastest (and fastest forward) walk speed he dictates the spacing game a lot better than Cody does. Occasional badstones/crLP buffers/F+MPs/F+HKs are good to keep him from bossing you around. The farMP buff for Yang is helpful in this because it moves Yang forward when canceled and Yang's crMK could be avoided+counter poked by farLK/MK and F+HP while farMP counters those normals fairly well.)

    4-6 (opp adv)
    Oni
    El Fuerte
    Abel
    Guile
    Dhalsim (Borderline 3.5-6.5 IMO. Sim's damage buffs and B+HP/B+MK buffs helped this MU though so did Cody's walk speed buff. DWU helps Sim a lot more than Cody. Still I could see it becoming solid 4-6 with just some solid crMK footsie tech and anti-dwu tech. Even after Chin demolishes Sabin several times Sabin STILL thinks it's one of Sim's easiest matchups. And Sabin though Sim/Gief was 4-6 Gief in AE2012 he is known to really complain about Sim. FChamp has played (and lost) to Momochi several times over several versions and ranks it one of Sim's best MUs though he hates EX Ruffian I know)

    Ken (He has better mobility, better overall footsies as long as he is making you block, and very good frame traps. crMK - fireball is fightable but it's more difficult to just react to raw fireball at specific ranges where he can make you block it. Escape tatsu still exists. His kara game is the best now that he has walks peed AND the farthest kara. He has anti-DWU setups that also beat normal wakeup and are crossup or nots approaching from the air so they beat Cody's wakeup. The only real situation Cody holds an advantage is standing just outside of F+MK range and buffering crLP - MK Ruffian (can be difficult with Ken's mobility) and the fact Cody does a fair bit more damage/stun than Ken in almost every situation. )

    Evil Ryu (I think that this could use some exploring. Cody has answers to Evil Ryu's crMK but I feel like people over emphasize that part of ERyu's game and if ERyu is utilizing farMP/crMP/farHP/farMK it gets to be VERY hard. If Cody's knife could do more damage in footsies I'd call this even because I feel like Cody's knife can fight some of ERyu's options, the problem is that you're doing 40-80 damage in most situations and risking 300-500+being in the corner.)

    Seth (Seth bleeds, but Seth also has better mixups and gets some good extended combos on Cody. It's riskier now than it was before for Seth but it's still solidly in his favor toolwise in terms of number of options and risk vs reward.)

    Akuma (might be 3.5-6.5 depending on future anti-dwu tech being found/utilized. ATM solid 4-6 in Akuma's favor. The sweep change allows Cody to use focus more which is pretty helpful in neutral. Akuma can still punish LP CU if it's not perfectly spaced and when it's perfectly spaced he can blow through crLK - LP CU with a DP because it's never a true block string (and when it whiffs the first hit there is ~4F gap before tornado appears anyway.) the jump back fireball nerf is help ful for Cody as is Cody's walk speed buff. Akuma can still hold his own in footsies and zone Cody well as well as keep up in damage and frame traps. However Akuma bleeds pretty hard having 17% less health than Cody, and more importantly 850STUN is quite easy for Cody to reach with 1 Combo and a single hit resulting in a low scaled stun. Combo. The U2 nerf hurt Cody in this MU though. DWU hurt Akuma as much as it helped him in this MU imo. Cody still can't deal with teleports very well.)

    3.5-6.5 (opp adv)
    Rufus (Cody still hates Rufus' dive kick game, Rufus gets more damage now in some situations with farMP - EX Galactic tornado combos. Rufus' EX Messiah kick buff was pretty big in this MU and it's very hard to safejump + OS low profile forcing you to block it which means without U1 stocked you're going to have to deal with the post reversal mixup. The only thing that really helped at all in this MU was Rufus' U1 damage nerf, Throw damage nerf, and Cody's LP CU being -4F instead of -5F. Still a solid adv Rufus)

    Cammy (I think this could develop back into a 3-7 depending on new dive kick setups as well as bug fixes. She has anti-DWU tech including anti DWU+Regular WU crossup or not setups and her back throw allows her to react and change setups potentially before leaving the ground once players get used to the timing. She still has her back throw - farMK - jLK unblockable and several others. Her main damage/stun went down but it is still quite high and she gets a bit more damage than before with her HK Spiral - EX FADC - sHP combos or if she chooses to go for Redfocus. If they fix her issue where her hooligan combination doesn't go high enough to allow for her dive kick then she'll be certainly a 3-7)

    Ibuki (I think this could be a 3-7. People highly underrate Ibuki's footsies which got A LOT better too. 3F crLP and now has normal forward walk speed and faster than normal backwards. Still has great command normals, still has great specials that chip and can lead to mixups. She doesn't care about DWU at all with her kunai vs jLK setups. Her EX DP is better. Only conselation is that LP CU is no longer punishable by sMK at all ranges and F+HK will do well vs her crMP buffers.) the thing is you have to use your brain and you can't JUST autopilot to win this as Ibuki, however that should be the case with any MU outside of an 8-2 or worse when it comes to players of equal skill/expertise (for what it's worth, I think BJ is a MUCH better player than Whitegun in terms of adaptability, fundamentals, and general expertise and even then whitegun almost autopiloted to a win several times and would not stop doing the same things after BJ showed he knew how to fight it)

    3-7
    Yun (Opponent need to be using his target combo to sMP more and taking advantage of Yun's buffed command throw range to really turn this into a 3-7)

    New characters

    Not really comfortable stating for sure but I think Poison is SLIGHT advantage for Poison. Rolento is SLIGHT advantage for Cody (Nemo actually thinks it's about even but one of Rolento's easier MUs of the 5-5s). Hugo I think is about even. Decapre feels slightly advantage Decapre. Elena I have no idea whatsoever she is too much of a mess.
    Post edited by Eternal on
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  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 6,269
    I actually forgot about LK dan kick getting the increased lower hitbox. So yea can't just slide out for free now. Then there's the fact cl.HK is a command normal now so he can put pressure and frametraps on you now.

    I'm also an idiot for not adding Vega in the 4.5-5.5 matchup since Cody does struggle against him even with the knife. LP Upper isn't safe and free damage for Vega with a 4f cr.MP. j.HP is still silly although not unbeatable. (you can do a late b+MP but it's risky. HK ruffian trades with it) Cody also suffers with having crappy options escaping barcelona grabs. cr.MK works sometimes but can still be hit by the slash. Zonk and EX zonk aren't the greatest options either. The last few times I was playing the match I was testing out jumpback j.LP and sometimes it stopped him, other times i'd get grabbed, and then maybe 2-3 times with the knife the grab animation happened but I stopped him from grabbing me and I lost the knife. :/

    Ken is just an annoyance. His vortex is still present along with the walkspeed buff and f+MP among other things.

    if I had to put anything 3-7 for Cody right now i'd say Rufus and Yun.
    I don't got those.
  • C100C100 Turn tha beat back! Joined: Posts: 163
    Found this video earlier today and I thought it was pretty good. Shows a lot of different stuff for Cody. Credit goes to CrossCounta
  • SeikanoSeikano zaymax/yungzay Joined: Posts: 166
    was trying to find a setup against sagat since I miss Cody's 2012 ex ruffian setup on him

    ex ruffian > c.mk > cr.mp > jf.HK

    not entirely foolproof, they can crouch it lol. sorta a risk for them to crouch it since they're def within range to be crossed up. not sure if cody can be dp'd, too late and too lazy right now to test.

    just something I thought I'd share, I've somewhat given up on set plays due to dwu but it's always good to know it's there.
  • GroundedSFGroundedSF Joined: Posts: 632
  • Canadian_sk8terCanadian_sk8ter Ian Joined: Posts: 381
    Momochi option selects
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