Old/New Characters Hit Box Diagrams + Drag N Drop Theory Fighter

13

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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    snip
    sup, man? One gotta notice, however, that O.Ryu has some normals which are slower than N.Ryu, being far standing forward the most noticeable example. The thing is very slow.
    Awww, why'd they take that double psycho hand animation out from o.dic's devil reverse. That would have made an awesome win pose.
    I think he should immediately get in that animation whenever he jumped in on Guile with a down charge.
  • deadfrogdeadfrog Joined: Joined: Posts: 6,787
    Oh my god this is incredible
  • SnatcherSnatcher The True Enemy Joined: Posts: 920 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Fei's far fierce isn't listed as special cancellable, but it is.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    Fei's far fierce isn't listed as special cancellable, but it is.

    O Fei or N Fei? According to YBH, N Fei's far fierce is not special cancellable. Thanks
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
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  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    Nope, but I think cl.fierce can cancel into super.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    Nope, but I think cl.fierce can cancel into super.

    I'm confused.

    So
    1) you disagree with S that neither O or N fei can special cancel far fierce?

    2) close fierce is already listed as cancellable into special & super as you said. Are you saying something else?
    Super Street Fighter II Turbo - Hitbox Diagrams : Fei Long
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    sup, man? One gotta notice, however, that O.Ryu has some normals which are slower than N.Ryu, being far standing forward the most noticeable example. The thing is very slow.

    I just checked that link, :rofl: old shoto st.mk had like the largest startup of all his normals, it was slower than the hado startup by one frame lol. I think that's why o.shotos prefer srk for their AA needs.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
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  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    I'm confused.

    So
    1) you disagree with S that neither O or N fei can special cancel far fierce?

    2) close fierce is already listed as cancellable into special & super as you said. Are you saying something else?
    Super Street Fighter II Turbo - Hitbox Diagrams : Fei Long

    1.yes, n.fei can't cancel to special with fs.fierce and o.fei can.

    2.no, i didnt check out the list before asking. haa
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • SnatcherSnatcher The True Enemy Joined: Posts: 920 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'm sorry guys, I thought I'd said O. Fei. Old Fei's far fierce is special cancellable.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    After much discussion with osbr on ggpo, cross referencing YBH, looking at my image captures, and also various people pointing out that blanka's electricity, Gief's lariat's frame data are wrong, we come to the conclusion that T. Akiba's frame data are wrong.

    He has almost 90% correct but for numeric data like frames, accuracy is very important.

    Too bad that poor soul was counting frames by using the DC console at that time. If emulator frame by frame pausing was available back then, it could have made his job much easier and the data could be more likely to be accurate.

    Since I just copy & paste frame data from T. Akiba, my pages also inherit all the errors that he has.
    I'll probably fix all the new character's frame data using YBH instead, later...

    But for old characters, it's up to volunteers to help count them and post the corrections.

    Or if anyone can communicate in Japanese, send that nigga an email and maybe he'll mobilize his side of ST fans to fix them.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I have come to conclude (and verify) that the game adds 1 extra frame of delay to grounded normal moves. All other moves come out 1 frame before, and this must have been the reason why they got the start-up wrong for the grounded normals, but not jumping ones or specials. Other than that, it looks like YBH data is mostly correct, but by normals with extra recovery, which are hard to spot and must be tested individually. When I get the time, I will compare the data I got for Ryu and the one from YBH. If they got it right, then we will not have to test every grounded normal of the game for extra recovery.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Just getting started with this awesome hitbox viewer setup... before, I thought the green boxes were just a vertical line, without width, but maybe because in fb traps some chars have a harder time jumping up over fb's than others eg dictator? ie not just his jumping speed which may be slow like honda's, but rather, how close the front of his green box is to the fast fb whereas other characters are "thinner" so to speak, ie thinner green box so they can jump the fast fb in a corner, not just because their jumping speed or other factors are better. For the thinner chars they have more wiggle room to move more into the corner? Enough theory, Ima go check this out!

    but my main question I'm wondering about, before I do: what determines the direction, left vs. right, when one green box almost exactly gets on top of another green box? (It's not going to just sit on top of it, in any case). The X centers of each box would make the most sense, but if they never overlap, it "seems" (without seeing the actual boxes) like they only slide slightly left/right but mostly straight down almost.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    After much discussion with osbr on ggpo, cross referencing YBH, looking at my image captures, and also various people pointing out that blanka's electricity, Gief's lariat's frame data are wrong, we come to the conclusion that T. Akiba's frame data are wrong.

    He has almost 90% correct but for numeric data like frames, accuracy is very important.

    Akiba probably did not have access to hitbox mode when he made his charts. Many of the errors I saw have to do with him overstating the hitting duration of moves.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Akiba probably did not have access to hitbox mode when he made his charts. Many of the errors I saw have to do with him overstating the hitting duration of moves.
    That is for sure. All in all, just to make it clear, no-one has the intention of disregarding the amazing job he has done, which has helped and continues to help us for so much time, and took him a lot of work and dedication to the community. Anyway, as expected for such a large job, it could not catch all things. Even with the easy tools we have today it is likely that things would go unnoticed. Particularly, apart from the grounded normal problem, some moves (here for Ryu's) are listed with smaller recovery. This is really hard to catch, but it has been identified, and there is no reason not to make people aware of it. I also believe if we could contact them, odds are they would have other new things to tell us.

    SSF2X is an amazing game and it amazes me that we continue to learn new things about it, even after so many years.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Looks like a green box directly over another greenbox falling down does indeed slide only left or right before falling straight down (or mostly straight down) again. The game plays so fast it's much easier to spot frame-by-frame.

    That blank screen mode (so you only see the hitboxes, not the char sprites) is awesome!
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    xspr, I am not sure if I understand what you said in the above 2 posts.

    So if you cross up and try your best to align the push (green) box so they are directly over each other, the game randomly decide if you are hitting the front or behind? I guess that's the best ambiguous cross up, right?

    I tried to do that sort of stuff in game as well, but as you try to align your character right above the other character, it usually cross up not deep enough and thus even if you hit in air, after you land your 2nd hit won't connect because you're in frame disadvantage.

    I usually end up getting reverse thrown.

    If I tried to cross up meaty enough, I'm usually way on the other side (behind) and it is obvious to block the other way. It still works out ok since the landing guessing game is still in my favor but not as threatening if the cross up also connect.

    I wonder if I'm doing it wrong all these time.

    BTW, I'm sure you're bad ass at coding, but there is some tricks if you want to remove the push (green) box altogether. I needed that for capturing the jpegs since the greenbox are distracting most of the time.

    If you ever need that and couldn't figure it out, let me know and I'll try to post it up and explain a little bit.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Yes, as you said, when you try to land your green push box on your opponent's push box so that the middle of your push box's X coordinate is the same as the middle of his push box's X coordinate. (midway between topLeft corner and topRight corner points). I think this middle point was represented as the red dot in HDR, so basically, get your red dot as directly over his red dot as possible. I imagine it wouldn't be too tough to modify what's been done already to make a red dot, or even better, represent it as a full tall vertical line, from bottom to top of screen, even, by modifying the lua script(?).

    This wasn't for practical gameplay yet, I just want to know how the game works under the hood, so yes, as you mentioned, any jump attack that's done too high risks getting thrown on landing in a real match... I was just wondering whether or not a direct on-top landing, green box directly over green box, actually slides ONLY left/right first before falling down, or falls more "diagonally" so to speak. Seeing pictures of the boxes sort of answers my question before I tried it, but seeing it for myself in the actual game made it clear. As for Dictator's example of him getting trapped in a corner fb trap, it seems other characters have similar green push box widths so maybe that doesn't matter (I thought maybe he was "fatter in the green" so less wiggle room to escape up, but maybe that's just because of his jump speed, like slow honda/fei's).

    Also I wonder if throw ranges can be displayed as well, with precise discrete lines (boxes)? Different characters have different throw ranges in terms of how far it extends out (eg dhalsim and honda being the furthest reach out), but what point is it measured FROM? If their green boxes are different, is that throw range being measured from the green push box's center, or forward edge?
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Green boxes do have different proportions based on character:

    Zangief has a wider and taller pushbox than Guile. I don't think it matters if throw ranges are calculated from the edge of the pushbox or from the centre. The real question is, which one did Akiba assign the zero value to: The edge or the centre? I'm guessing it's the centre, tho I could be wrong.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Hey now that it's possible to get the hitboxes displayed, I wonder if it's possible to get other information out of the game too, specifically, to create or generate some statistics over the course of a set of games, e.g. which moves did you lose most often to, which moves did you lose most often to at the end of rounds, etc. It could be written and saved to a file and aggregated after in a spreadsheet. Another example might be, can we tell precisely how much life energy each move takes off (we already seem to know about damage scaling alone, ie a move inflicts 37% off if it's done at the end of opponent's lifebar, as opposed to how much damage the same move would do to a full lifebar).

    blitzfu, yeah I guess it doesn't really matter where throw range is measured from, then, but in any case I'd like to see a box/line of how far it extends to, displayed onscreen along with the other boxes.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    I was always told that it was Hondas bear hug that has the most throw range, not his kneebash.

    anyone?
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Same range, Fulaani. T.Akiba is right.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Aight, I'm asking because Papasis website only lists the data for the kneebash.

    small suggestion btw, the title of the website still says SSFIIT Old character hitbox diagrams. Should be updated.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    title updated

    I only show the table once because they are the same XDDDD

    osbr, can you confirm that all frame data in ybh are correct?
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I only show the table once because they are the same XDDDD

    osbr, can you confirm that all frame data in ybh are correct?
    Aside from incorrect start-up on grounded normals (1 frame longer), they are mostly right, but not 100%. Thus, not confirmed. I gotta leave really soon so I could only check Ryu's data, and they did notice a number of moves have that extra recovery frame. However, they did not notice cr.strong also does have that extra recovery, so it should be listed as 3-4-7. Close short is way different that what I had obtained (even if you do not factor that I hadn't checked the hitboxes). And that's it for this character: the other moves are all fine.
  • MurderbydeathMurderbydeath Joined: Posts: 906
    Fulaani, Valle gave me a similar piece of advice to "blocking animations making your character's hitbox wider, so it's better to be neutral if you're going to be thrown" kind of thing, except he said "Stand up when you think you're going to be thrown, because crouch blocking makes your hitbox wider." Is it possible you misinterpreted? Crouching hitboxes are indeed wider I think.
  • ComedyBlissOptionComedyBlissOption Joined: Posts: 65
    Suggestions

    I noticed a possible error. On your listing for honda's fierce headbutt, he actually has vulnerable feet hitboxes for at least a frame which you seemed to omit.

    This has already probably been mentioned, but blue hitboxes on a character with blue color can be hard to see. Dictator is an offender. It's not that big of a deal though.

    I suggest you could possibly put frame adv/disadv for ground normals. I think the hit or blockstun for ground normals is 11/16/20 for light/medium/hard respectively. For moves with multiple attack frames, you could probably just ignore the latter parts and just list adv/disadv for the first part. I think that on the first hit of a combo, moves have a frame extra advantage.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I noticed a possible error. On your listing for honda's fierce headbutt, he actually has vulnerable feet hitboxes for at least a frame which you seemed to omit.

    Not all hitbox animations are captured in the pictures. There would be a lot more images for intermediary animations otherwise. Yeah, it would be better if every unique orientation was captured (no need for simple hitbox displacement) but that would also take a lot more time.
  • ComedyBlissOptionComedyBlissOption Joined: Posts: 65
    Yah I realize that. But that's actually an important property of the move and not an inconsequential in-between frame.

    One other suggestion is showing the hitbox of a character while just empty jumping. This can be pretty useful to show how certain moves may shrink your hitboxes in the air.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    Or makes your hitbox grow... Took me a day of using chun's nj roundhouse to realize it makes her hitbox wider... ( badly spaced fireballs would normally whiff me if I neutral jump, but if I mistime a nj. roundhouse to punish (if they're standing too close) i'll get hit when it looks/feels like I shouldn't..

    and I still don't know if chun's headstomp only cuts off the leg (can safely block a low tiger if you headstomp right before landing) or if it also makes it thinner horizontally as well...
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
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  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    Yah I realize that. But that's actually an important property of the move and not an inconsequential in-between frame.

    not sure what's wrong but i go back and check my video captured using fraps at 60fps and n honda's fierce headbutt transition directly from

    1_cr.jpg

    to

    2_cr.jpg

    but t-akiba's frame data does have that '5' '1' '1' for fierce headbutt. dont know what's the deal.
    maybe you can just capture that frame and post it here.

    for short and strong headbutt, they do have that frame

    short 3_cr.jpg

    strong 2_cr.jpg

    One other suggestion is showing the hitbox of a character while just empty jumping. This can be pretty useful to show how certain moves may shrink your hitboxes in the air.

    for jumping it's very hard as the hitboxes change a lot. if you want that free feel to help out but that would be extremely tedious to capture all the frames (empty jump, pre/post frames between jump attacks, etc)
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • ComedyBlissOptionComedyBlissOption Joined: Posts: 65
    It's a single frame, so fraps might not have caught it.
    http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/honda/torpedofierce.html
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    thanks to fudd for reminding me that i missed claw's hitbox without the claw.
    vega

    all his ground punch normals have less reach without it.
    note that cr. fierce has a different hitbox to cover his head though

    3_cr.jpg
    6_cr.jpg

    his jumping attacks and Sky High Claw are not affected

    claw roll is significantly nerfed
    6_cr.jpg
    8_cr.jpg

    wall dive has less reach on one side

    2_cr.jpg
    5_cr.jpg
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • FuddFudd High Level Parking Joined: Posts: 1,215
    Oh wow, some of those hitboxes changed in unexpected ways. Good to know, thanks for putting the work in.
    "See, Super Turbo is a real man's game... But Street Fighter 4's like Chuck-E-Cheese, baby. Y'know what I'm saying? Where a kid can be a kid. I'm a grown-ass man, so clearly I'm not old enough to go in the ball pit." -Steve Harrison (Translation: dat Fo' make you soft)
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  • SilksSilks What're ya countin'em for? Joined: Posts: 799
    I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I believe OHonda's hands come out in 4 inputs instead of 5 like NHonda.

    And btw, this shit is awesome. Much respect for the time and effort put into this.
    Evo2k9 - "OMG, are you SERIOUS? AT WHAT LEVEL IS HE PLAYING AT?"
  • ComedyBlissOptionComedyBlissOption Joined: Posts: 65
    N. Honda's hands come out in 4 inputs.
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    Ryu's fierce shoryuken is diferent to his jab version, fierce srk has more start up for sure, n is more vulnerable. time to update his shoryukens data
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Ryu's fierce shoryuken is diferent to his jab version, fierce srk has more start up for sure, n is more vulnerable. time to update his shoryukens data
    No way. I am positive on this one. All is as presented in the Wiki.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    What? I though nryu's hp srk was his least vulnerable srk?

    -trolls suck-
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    No way. I am positive on this one. All is as presented in the Wiki.
    can u test it? i think 0 frame skip frame by frame could show the differences of HP vs LP shoryuken.

    his HP shoryuken cannot pass throught hadoukens, only the LP version can do it, no idea what the exact diference is but its there, can u do a frame by frame comparisson?
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • JizzonJizzon ...or Thenarus, whichever. Joined: Posts: 650
    If you check out papasi's hitbox site, click N.Ryu, and scroll down to his Shoryuken, you'll see that there are two sets of hitbox data. Note that the start-up for all three is the same as far as the frame data and timing are concerned.

    The first, where he is vulnerable only at his head on the way up, represents his jab version (which allows the ability to pass through fireballs, among other things).

    The strong and fierce versions have whole body vulnerability on the way up, however, as displayed by the second set of hitboxes.
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