Thoughts on 2V2 matchups and partnering

ZanegiefZanegief Joined: Posts: 25
Hey guys, I didn't see any thread concerning this topic so I decided to go ahead and make one. Brawl is unfortunately the only game where I live where the tournament attendance can at times well exceed 30 people and in the Melee days more than 50, for us this is a pretty good number. In December we're having a team based tournament and I was wondering about who you guys think are the best teams in the game. You'd be surprised at the amount of double Marth teams I've seen, which in my opinion isn't really a strong partnership. I main Lucas and Ness, my teammate uses Snake. Thoughts? Which teams do you believe to be strongest, based on the characters? Let's hear it.

Comments

  • EPsilon933EPsilon933 Joined: Posts: 176
    AiB's Official Doubles Tier List

    -S Tier-
    Meta Knight

    -A Tier-
    Wario
    Game and Watch
    Snake
    Lucario
    Dedede

    -B Tier-
    Donkey Kong
    R.O.B.
    Luigi
    Diddy Kong
    Pit
    Toon Link
    Olimar
    Marth
    Kirby

    -C Tier-
    Zero Suit Samus
    Fox
    Falco
    Ness
    Peach
    Pikachu
    Wolf

    -D Tier-
    Ike
    Lucas
    Sonic
    Sheik
    Mario
    Jigglypuff
    Zelda
    Pokemon Trainer

    -E Tier-
    Samus
    Falcon
    Link
    Yoshi
    Ganondorf
    Ice Climbers
    Bowser


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  • ZanegiefZanegief Joined: Posts: 25
    Okay perhaps I didn't phrase myself correctly but I didn't mean the game's tier list, everyone knows for example that Meta Knight is the game's S-tier character. But I mean, would you still call it a great team if it was a Meta Knight partnered with a Link up against a team consisting of Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong. Sometimes the strength of a team is not measured alone by the tiers of the characters in it but the strategies devised by the team and how well they work with the assets of the characters chosen.
  • EPsilon933EPsilon933 Joined: Posts: 176
    I've never been to a Brawl tournament, so I don't really have a much of an accurate view on the game. I've only been to Melee tournaments so I really don't know who works well with who in Brawl. Just try to pick whoever the players play best with and hope they're as close to S tier as possible.

    If an S/A tier is going to team with an E tier, E tier is going to get singled out and killed so easily. It's not as good as a more balanced team like 2 C tiers teaming. That's how Mew2King + Jman and MaNg0 + LuCKy brought ARmada + Aniolas down to 3rd place at Apex 2010. Aniolas isn't at all a super top pro like the other 5 players. He got singled out so hard.

    But I guess you could say that teams need balanced traits, like a team needs to have someone who can get kills well.
  • SleepyKSleepyK Are you okay? Joined: Posts: 11
    It seems that many melee players enjoy brawl 2v2 because the pacing changes and the things that seem overpowered in singles aren't as prevalent.
    However, I asked TheReflexWonder and kismet2 (two of the south's top players) and they both said that in brawl doubles, you kind of just spam your best move until you get a hit. There was more to it, but I don't remember exactly what they both said.
  • ZanegiefZanegief Joined: Posts: 25
    Ah alright, thanks for sharing the link. Decided to watch some top level play and it's a bit sad to see how much it's slowed down since Melee. The top competitive matches are nowhere as fun to spectate as Street Fighter in my opinion. But it was still insightful on some areas. Melee > Brawl for life. Cheers man.

    EDIT:
    Cool, no popular moves that are used in conjunction with another that you might know of? In either case me and my partner are sticking with Lucas/Snake, it usually works out well for us.
  • EPsilon933EPsilon933 Joined: Posts: 176
    Ah alright, thanks for sharing the link. Decided to watch some top level play and it's a bit sad to see how much it's slowed down since Melee. The top competitive matches are nowhere as fun to spectate as Street Fighter in my opinion. But it was still insightful on some areas. Melee > Brawl for life. Cheers man.

    Competitive Brawl just needs to use 1.1 damage ratio to be more fun
    EDIT:
    Cool, no popular moves that are used in conjunction with another that you might know of? In either case me and my partner are sticking with Lucas/Snake, it usually works out well for us.

    I seriously honestly don't know anything about Brawl teams strategies.
  • M.D.M.D. digs older chicks Joined: Posts: 4,188
    why is bowser at the bottom? That's my go-to character from 2v2 and I would at least put him above ice climbers who can be at a bigger disadvantage when it's 2v1.
    "I'm deeeeeaaaadd!" - Williams
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    SSF4: Seth, Gen, Zangief
    KOFXIII: Kim Team, Ikari Warriors, Hwa/98 Kyo/Raiden
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    Depends if friendly fire is on or off. If on, then the tier list above will work out. If not, then you can got what ever you want and you can make it work. Teams that I've seen work are Link/Ike (not sure why, but it's a good team), and power/speed teams (Pikachu/Ike and Bowser/Diddy work really well). There are a lot more strategies and tactics you can do without friendly fire so try them out. Try to have at least one character will reliable K.O.s. As long as one character has a good way to K.O, you'll be fine.

    (Aside: Why is Ganondorf so low on that list. Thought he was good in teams).
  • EPsilon933EPsilon933 Joined: Posts: 176
    Friendly fire off in teams would turn into a spam fest. Imagine Falco in the back ground spamming lasers all the time while an aggressor hits their opponents. They'll be trapped in hitstun from Falco's lasers and they'll get comboed and killed from the other opponent. Friendly fire prevents the game from turning into a contest of broken strategies.

    Of course teams need balance. A team without anyone with much kill power wouldn't get any kills. A team without an aggressor wouldn't be able to rack up damage fast enough to get kills. And of course imbalance would ruin a team. 2 aggressors teaming would trip over each other and ruin synergy.

    Ganondorf is bad in teams because he's just bad. Shure he's a little bit better in teams, it's just that he's really bad.
    Note that I am by no means complaining about anything. I wouldn't have my 'Dorf any other way. But for the sake of comedy, I figured I'd point out some lesser-known things about him that most people may not know. This is truly why Ganondorf belongs in his own tier.

    1. Fastest move is 8-frames.
    2. Suffers from top 5 worst move decay in the game.
    3. All of his kill moves (yes, I know, all of his moves are kill moves, technically) are also moves needed for normal combat, making everything stale as ****. I rarely kill below 120% unless I get lucky.
    4. Tallest character in the game = easiest shield to poke and easiest target.
    5. Worst grab range in the entire game. He is the only character who cannot shieldgrab most character's jabs unless PSed. Coupled with his slow-*** jab at 8-frames, he can't punish most anything close range.
    6. Worst recovery in the game. Link's is technically a little worse, due to less vertical distance, but he has FAR better recovery options than Ganon.
    7. Ganon gets punished for landing his up-b offstage. If they don't buffer an attack out of it and gimp you, you'll have so much lag from the end of the move that they can just edgeguard you.
    8. Second slowest ground speed in the game.
    9. Absolutely no way to approach. His BAir autocancels far too high, his FAir is obviously not viable as an approach and so forth. This makes it so one of Diddy's bananas or Snake's claymore even, might as well just be giant ****ing walls lol.
    10. Zero OoS options.
    11. Worst recovery carry-over lag in the game, at around 40 frames. Given how much Ganon is thrown offstage, this makes it so he has to recover often, meaning everytime he gets back onstage, he has 40 frames of lag either when he jumps back on, or next time he jumps before doing an aerial.
    12. Completely helpess upon landing.

    I love Ganon. I'd never change him. I'm thrilled by the challenge he presents. But the sheer preponderance of asstacular attributes he has is absolutely breathtaking. XD With such a volume of unfortunate traits, it's almost too coincidental. It's as if the devs calculated what the worst character possible in the game could be without rendering him/her completely nonviable.

    Every bad thing about him leads to another bad thing, or they complement each other. Such as his lack of approach and his helplessness upon landing, making jumping over Snake's claymores or Diddy's bananas terrifyingly hard. Or his horrible frame data mixed with his inability to grab.

    Wouldn't have it any other way. <3
  • zer0coolzer0cool Joined: Posts: 59
    Mr Game and Watch can own in teams. All his smashes are very powerful, he has insane priority, and his moves linger. Although he is light, a technique known as 'bucket' braking can help him live longer.

    IMO, heavy characters do great in teams since they can just be 'stock tanks' and hold lives/stocks for a long time.

    Snake is great in teams IMO, he kills easily, his explosives can set traps everywhere, you can have your partner stick c4 on you, then you run and have the c4 stick to your opponents and he can then set it off.

    The 'heaviest' character I can use is Wolf, his blaster can be annoying in teams, used to control space, his Forward smash isnt a good kill move, but can be somewhat spammed due to its massive range. Downside is his recovery sucks and he can and will be edge hogged.
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    Friendly fire off in teams would turn into a spam fest. Imagine Falco in the back ground spamming lasers all the time while an aggressor hits their opponents. They'll be trapped in hitstun from Falco's lasers and they'll get comboed and killed from the other opponent. Friendly fire prevents the game from turning into a contest of broken strategies.

    Of course teams need balance. A team without anyone with much kill power wouldn't get any kills. A team without an aggressor wouldn't be able to rack up damage fast enough to get kills. And of course imbalance would ruin a team. 2 aggressors teaming would trip over each other and ruin synergy.
    I'll make this quick.

    If you are complaining about two Falcos spaming lasors, then you're a noob, plan and simple. Good players find ways around that. Instead of having a team of two Meta-Knights, you have Samus, Lucas, Mario, or Fox on your team. The reason the team tier list mimics the 1v1 tier list is because they are the same. Team games are about coordination rather than tactics or strategy.
  • EPsilon933EPsilon933 Joined: Posts: 176
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    um what?

    That's your response?

    Anywho, team games with friendly fire on boil down to coordination rather then a strategy. By turning it off, new tactics and strategies arise.
  • EPsilon933EPsilon933 Joined: Posts: 176
    Too bad the new strategies are mainly abusing 2v1'ing opponents.

    The coordination requirement prevents broken strategies from occurring.
  • RenyNoiseRenyNoise SWAG HUNDRED THOUSAND Joined: Posts: 209
    It's chill and all. But this one tournament I was at had a pick up style tournament.
    They chose teams randomly. I got a good a partner and we synced pretty well. But some people got chosen with a shitty one.
    But if your going into a tournament that you know will be 2 vs 2.
    Start making plays to get quick KO's.
    Me and my brother usually have plans. Launcher and Attacker.

    Attacker softens the opponent and racks em up for damage and then sends them towards the Launcher.
    And Launcher basically finishes the job. It's won us a couple local tournaments.

    But Wombo Combo is a perfect example of what I'm talking.
    SFIII3: Sean
    USFIV: Adon (Main), Ken, Guy, Yun, and DeeJay
    SFxT: Raven & Paul (Main); Raven & Ken; Guy and Ken
    SFA3: Ken and Guy
    SSB(M,PM): Falco (Main), Luigi, and Roy.
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    The problem is that no strategy is broken. There is always a way around it. Most of the reason things are turned off in Smash Bros is that the players just don't want to deal with it. Friendly fire is a great example. Now, with it on, you don't have to deal with projectile spam (even though it is a legitamate strategy).

    Competitive Smash Brothers is like living in fantasy land. They want to turn off all the stuff they consider "cheesey," yet their matches try their best to abuse the "cheesey," ****.
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    Sorry, double post
  • EPsilon933EPsilon933 Joined: Posts: 176
    The problem is that no strategy is broken. There is always a way around it. Most of the reason things are turned off in Smash Bros is that the players just don't want to deal with it. Friendly fire is a great example. Now, with it on, you don't have to deal with projectile spam (even though it is a legitamate strategy).

    Competitive Smash Brothers is like living in fantasy land. They want to turn off all the stuff they consider "cheesey," yet their matches try their best to abuse the "cheesey," ****.

    *About to reply...* ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
    Nah, why do I have faith in Smash at SRK? This place is retarded.
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    *About to reply...* ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
    Nah, why do I have faith in Smash at SRK? This place is retarded.

    Why is Smash retarded at SRK? Care to explain?
  • EPsilon933EPsilon933 Joined: Posts: 176
    Why is Smash retarded at SRK? Care to explain?

    I might have mis-wrote. I was saying SRK, the entire site, is retarded.
  • SmashchuSmashchu Joined: Posts: 124
    I might have mis-wrote. I was saying SRK, the entire site, is retarded.

    Doesn't explain how it is retarded though.
  • calvarycalvary Joined: Posts: 1
    Thanks for the great information in this thread. It will really improve my game!
  • sajjsajj Joined: Posts: 49
    hard for pika because his game revolved around the bolt :\
  • helhelhelhelohelhelhelhelo True Believer | * * * * | Joined: Posts: 251
    Capt.Falcon and Falco

    Go for it WOMBO COMBO
  • DiscoCokkroachDiscoCokkroach Robot Master Joined: Posts: 148
    Projectile spam in an active 2v2 fighter (Smash, SFxTK Scramble Mode, etc.) in which you cannot harm your teammate is completely different from doing it in a 1v1 game.

    Play Melee w/Friendly Fire turned off against a pair of Falco players and you'll see what I mean. They will Short Hop Blaster (SHB) you to a nice high percentage, K.O. you with a single hit (SHFFL nair?), and repeat until they win (there's some Theory Fighter in there, but they will SHB as much as possible b/c there's no reason not to). It's a very easy tactic to employ.

    By putting Friendly Fire on, it takes away this cheap tactic (and when I say cheap, I mean on the level of ST Akuma; please correct me if I'm wrong) and adds the need for coordination so you don't set your teammate up for an easy K.O. (or K.O. him yourself). The fact that teamwork becomes more important is just a side effect (and a rather good one) of the real reason you should turn Friendly Fire on: To add a much-needed balance to 2v2.
    Amingo is great he has both kinds of options Jumping High Kick and ducking light kick
    --EVIL CAP AMERICA
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