** Focusattack.com fighting game store **

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  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    I wasn't aware of these figures. The latex rubber in the model I picked up looks much like the one used in the 303-FK. At the time that I ordered, there was no word of a silicone rubber. The SamduckSA website updated their specs diagram to include it.

    Thanks for the information; I'll want to investigate further.
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  • AmimitlAmimitl Joined: Posts: 22
    What about rubbers used in these cabinets? Are they different than the ones in 307 models from focusattack?
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    Amimitl wrote: »
    What about rubbers used in these cabinets? Are they different than the ones in 307 models from focusattack?

    The 307 rubbers I have look much the same as the 303. Back when I purchased them, there were no other options to choose from. I wasn't aware of silicone based rubbers, and neither was my supplier. I bought a small batch of each color this time. Truthfully I don't want to start carrying variations of each just because they have a different rubber, because it gets expensive. I'm for a consensus on what rubber is more appealing to the group, but right now, I don't yet have full insight on which one is "better" than the other.

    I also wonder if @wazwuz can do silicone rubber as well. Perhaps he can offer that variation as a separate product, as he does with the Fanta rubber.
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  • Lemony VengeanceLemony Vengeance JAMMA pad hacker Extraordinaire Joined: Posts: 463
    Lulz....

    RUBBERS.

    You dirty sailors. :P
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  • AmimitlAmimitl Joined: Posts: 22
    edited April 2015
    They use matsushita microswitches aswell in these cabinets?
  • Ikagi-chanIkagi-chan Loves his HRAP2SA! <3 Joined: Posts: 1,980
    edited April 2015
    jmanDMC wrote: »
    Amimitl wrote: »
    What about rubbers used in these cabinets? Are they different than the ones in 307 models from focusattack?

    The 307 rubbers I have look much the same as the 303. Back when I purchased them, there were no other options to choose from. I wasn't aware of silicone based rubbers, and neither was my supplier. I bought a small batch of each color this time. Truthfully I don't want to start carrying variations of each just because they have a different rubber, because it gets expensive. I'm for a consensus on what rubber is more appealing to the group, but right now, I don't yet have full insight on which one is "better" than the other.

    I also wonder if @wazwuz can do silicone rubber as well. Perhaps he can offer that variation as a separate product, as he does with the Fanta rubber.

    At least according to Phantomnaut and the article he cited, the silicon and latex tension rubber alternatives were only given out to testers for the Crown 307. The testers were asked to test a variety of rubbers that had hardness values of 50, 55, or 60 and made with a variety of different materials. After the testing was over and Crown collected the feedback, a rubber grommet with a hardness value of 60 (not sure what the technical unit is) was chosen for the final design for the 307. Crown never made any sort of statement saying they'd offer alternative material rubber grommets or grommets in any other tension.

    In all likelihood Jaleel, what you were able to order through your distributor is probably all that we or anyone else in Korea can get. Naturally, Crown could later decide to sell alternate grommets using different tension values or materials. But for now, the grommets of the 307s you have in stock probably use the same materials and have the same tension as the grommets in the 307s in Korean Tekken 7 cabinets.

    EDIT: Just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't worry too much anyway about stocking up on other grommets. I highly doubt anyone who buys a Korean stick will want something that has less tension than is already there on the 303-FK and the 307. If they want a different amount of tension, they'll likely want to have higher tension like that in a Myoungshin Fanta which wazwuz's kit already covers.
  • AmimitlAmimitl Joined: Posts: 22
    Focusattack said they used the same grommet in 307 and in 303 so im not really sure bout the hardness value.
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    Amimitl wrote: »
    Focusattack said they used the same grommet in 307 and in 303 so im not really sure bout the hardness value.

    I did mention this, but I should clarify that the rubber - in appearance - looks the same as the Crown 303-FK. I wasn't aware of a harness adjustment, because that was not mentioned by Crown on their website. I can certainly clarify that, referring to the article and to Ikagi-chan. It's all very helpful information.
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  • skaloolaskaloola Joined: Posts: 172
    are the shafts interchangeable with other crown levers?
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    skaloola wrote: »
    are the shafts interchangeable with other crown levers?

    Will need some clarification as to which shafts you're referring to. The Crown/JLF conversion shaft I offer can be installed onto it. Other than that, the 307 has the same shaft as the 303-FK.
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  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    edited April 2015
    Hi gang,

    A couple of things about the model 307 I purchased from Crown. Shortly after I launched the model on FA, another announcement was made to mention that the 307-F-K-ST is the official model that is used for Tekken 7. Reading here:

    http://hibal.tistory.com/631

    this is true.

    When I ordered the existing model from my supplier back in late March, there was only one version with latex rubber available. If you visit the Crown website now however, you'll see additional variations.

    PD_1_434.jpg

    http://samducksa.com/new/eng/product/index_view.php?UidNum=359

    This wasn't on the website when I originally ordered the first batch. If it was, I would have inquired about the additional variations.

    In any case, I'm okay with updating information regarding the existing model I'm offering at the store, and eventually getting the silicone model. Please let me know if you have any questions.
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  • AmimitlAmimitl Joined: Posts: 22
    Could you check hardness value in the model you have in your shop?
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    edited April 2015
    For now, I'll express that I'd like the silent micro switch variant but I want the crown bat top on it instead of that candy ball top. Don't know how much of a pain that'll be. I think that's what the CWL-307FJ-SMS-ST is on the series list: a 307 with Japanese Mount, Silent Microswitch, and Silicon Tension rubber. I think I'd get it with a Black Bat top and stick it on my Kuro VLX or something.

    Thanks for the research!

    EDIT: re-reading the thread, if the silicon one is actually a softer rubber, I might just go with Fanta upgrade kit instead and just get a CWL-307FJ-SMS then. Japanese Mount and Silent Microswitches.
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    Amimitl wrote: »
    Could you check hardness value in the model you have in your shop?

    I'm researching this - first checking with my supplier if they can find out from Crown. I don't think they're using various hardnesses, as the variations of hardness for 307 were only sent to testers. @wazwuz - who developed the Fanta kit - may have an idea on how to properly test for elasticity.

    @Laban - based on the sheet, there are 24 variations of Crown 307 that are available. I can basically try to carry a few, but from the graphic you can see where there is potentially overkill. :) Will choose 2 or three models. Unfortunately - to my knowledge - Crown doesn't offer parts at the moment, so I can't get the individual rubber grommets. Switches are offered separately when I can source them outside of Crown.

    As for the tension, you have a point about the silicone. It won't hurt to offer both models at the store for those who want the Tekken 7 model, and those who want a potentially firmer latex rubber. Then there is the kit. It allows a reasonable amount of variety and customization.

    I'll have more stuff from Crown in the coming weeks.

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  • ChaoticMonkChaoticMonk Shut The Front Door Joined: Posts: 999
    Do you happen to know when TE Crossbones would be back in stock? Thanks :)
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    Not sure if this will come
    Do you happen to know when TE Crossbones would be back in stock? Thanks :)

    Yes - coming very soon, as @Phreakazoid sent a shipment over the weekend. Will announce once added to the store. If you are subscribed to receive a restock notification, that should also alert you to it coming back.
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  • shaunLEGENDshaunLEGEND SF2:CE 4EVER! Joined: Posts: 75
    I'm really confused about the microswitches in the 307. On your website, the description says that they are different than the 303 fk, but earlier in this thread you say they are the same. Which is it?

    I already have a 303fk which I bought from fa . I actually like the feel and tension due to the rubber grommet. However, this stick is useless to me because I can't hit diagonals. I would have returned it but for some reason I thought all sales are final. I'll just chalk that up to me being a dumbass about it.

    Is the ability to hit diagonals a lot easier? I don't want to get burned again.
  • AmimitlAmimitl Joined: Posts: 22
    @shaunLEGEND Jman already said in his previous posts that its easier to hit diagnosals now because of larger actuator. As much as they said there are new matsushita microswitches used.
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    edited April 2015
    I'm really confused about the microswitches in the 307. On your website, the description says that they are different than the 303 fk, but earlier in this thread you say they are the same. Which is it?

    I already have a 303fk which I bought from fa . I actually like the feel and tension due to the rubber grommet. However, this stick is useless to me because I can't hit diagonals. I would have returned it but for some reason I thought all sales are final. I'll just chalk that up to me being a dumbass about it.

    Is the ability to hit diagonals a lot easier? I don't want to get burned again.

    @shaunLEGEND I tried looking through the last two pages in which I mentioned the microswitches in 307 being the same as the 303-FK, but couldn't find it. Can you point me to the thread post? That said, if I did, then this was a mistake.

    Over the past two weeks, I received a large number of emails from one customer who wanted to know as much as he could about the 307 model I was offering. It helped me to research a number of things, such as the actuator and the switch model that was provided. As you now know, there are about 24 variations of 307 that Crown is making available. The one I bought was the only version they had before releasing the variation series. This one has a Japanese-style mounting plate and Japanese-style switches. The new actuator is likely the same across all models.

    Regarding your experience with the 303-FK, I'm sorry it wasn't preferable. I occasionally get returns for the 303-FK for a number of reasons, mainly because it wasn't as easy a transition from JLF as one expected. Have you used Korean-style joysticks before the 303-FK? You may have the same experience, and you may find that Crown or Korean joysticks are not beneficial to your play style. It's not for everyone, though Crown is taking some steps to appeal to a wider audience than before.

    I wanted to touch on a few things explained to me since mentioning the 307 on the forum. One has to do with the silicone grommet, and my version of 307 not having it. As I mentioned prior, this "ST" version wasn't available to me or my supplier, and honestly, there is only one supplier that US vendors are buying from, unless they are able to visit Korea. Crown isn't that open a company to do business with, based on what my supplier mentioned. I'm lucky they had some connections in Korea, and that one of the higher-ups were friends with a staff member at Crown, or no one would have as accessible a supplier. That said, I've asked my contact to confirm the exact model that is used in Tekken 7, and pick up a few units.

    I don't get all of the versions of Crown because in my experience, not many customers want all of them. Sales numbers explain that one version is more popular than another. I'd rather pick up the versions most of you are asking for, then try to buy all of them because logistically it doesn't make sense. So I can try stocking those, and for those who want a specific variation, I can ask my supplier if Crown can pack that in as a custom order with our next restock.

    The rubber grommet is also a hot topic. It's been one of the main reasons - I think - why Myoungshin is still a coveted joystick despite its incompatibility with most commercial joysticks. This is fine, and I'm thankful for @wazwuz for offering a grommet that has enough tension to convert a Crown into feeling much like a Myoungshin. In any case, wazwuz offered some insight into the silicone grommet and why it may or may not be a choice part. He allowed me to share his thoughts on it:
    I'm exited reading about rubber discussion, since it is my weekday job :).

    I will try not to technical explaining this.

    As we know, there are many type of rubber, and every type have different properties.

    Synthetic rubber type is classify by its base polymer. To make rubber compound (rubber material that will cured in mold) we use many chemicals to be blended with the base polymers.

    And making rubber compound is like cooking, there are so many recipe to get specific result and different properties.

    What i want to say is, every rubber product from different manufacturers will be different, depends on the polymer type and recipes they use.

    So let say you can get another 60 hardness rubber from another manufacturers, and when you compare with mine, there will be some differences.

    As you mention, they will use silicone rubber. Silicon is very flexible material, even when it is measured the same hardness with mine, it will feel a bit softer. And my prediction it will give some bounce throw back effect like crown rubber mod, when you move lever to one cartesian direction, let say right direction, and release it suddenly, it will throw back to the opposite direction, then bounce back to the right, then left, and back to neutral (and maybe this is why crown have spring in it, to help it goes to neutral). For me, I don't like this, as a tekken player, i want my stick move to neutral as fast as possible and stop (not bounce to the opposite direction). Actually when they installed my rubber mod, they can try it without installing back the spring (myungshin don't use spring) And see which one the like better.

    FYI i have try silicone rubber after i made the mold years ago, i use 45-50 hardness, and it feels like crown stock rubber, so I don't use it. But after this i will try to mold a 60 silicon (maybe this weekend) and see how it goes compare to latex 60 that i sent to you. Or maybe i can send you some of it so you can give it to the other player for second opinions.

    The conclusions is, silicon will feel different from latex, and it is up to player to try and choose which one they prefer.

    The microswitch I purchased for the kit was from a unit that was purchased from Etokki a year ago. I don't know if that switch has changed since, though I'd like to think it's not broke, it doesn't need fixing.

    Another insight came from my supplier, regarding the 307's use in actual Korean arcades.
    Actually I have serious doubts that Tekken 7 is specially equipped with Crown joystick. I rather believe the arcade centers are installing the Tekken 7 in old cabinets and Korean operators use Crown because easy to find and price, nothing much to do with hype and performance. FYI, there are not much arcade centers in Korea, really very few.

    I mention this only for perspective. The 307 specifically related to Tekken 7 will likely see more exposure on new machines, or potential replacement on older machines if Crown markets the 307 heavily enough that players demand that joystick be used in those game centers.

    In the end, I purchased the 307 honestly because it was a new Crown joystick. Crown remains a distant 5th or 6th in terms of sales, compared to Sanwa, Seimitsu, and now Hayabusa. However to me, it was a worthwhile alternative to the 303-FK, which I thought might help some players who wanted something closer to the JLF they were used to. When I purchased it, I wasn't aware of a version that was being used in Tekken 7 at the time, or I would have asked about it. From a business perspective, any association to a popular game will move a unit faster, and that's a good thing. In any case, I'll get some of the ST next restock. In the meantime, I'll have the Myoungshin kit available as soon as the microswitches arrive and I can get the photos and listings done.
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  • AmimitlAmimitl Joined: Posts: 22
    So overall, could you confirm if 307 model uses the same rubber as 303?
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    Amimitl wrote: »
    So overall, could you confirm if 307 model uses the same rubber as 303?

    Honestly, I don't have a firm answer yet. It's a question I will ask my supplier to confirm with Crown - whether they used the same material, and if the same material, whether it matches the same level hardness as the ST. I make assumptions that they did update the grommet's thickness to match silicone, but will need to confirm. I think I can get an answer by end of week.
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  • shaunLEGENDshaunLEGEND SF2:CE 4EVER! Joined: Posts: 75
    @jmanDMC here's the post, it was like from 14 days ago when you gave your first impressions. Also to answer your question, no I have never used a Korean lever before this so I wanted to check out what the hype is. Like I said in my previous post, I actually like the feel that the rubber grommet provides. I don't mind putting in the time to practice and get used to a lever which is why I am interested in the 307. The 303 I couldn't do diagonals (like 1 in 10 was my success rate).

    Also if you are concerned about having too many models of the 307, then at least get the exact tekken arcade model but with Japanese mount. I don't think anybody would argue with that.It's probably the Korean switches though, as all the info you guys are posting that this will only be the official stick for the Korean arcade versions.
    jmanDMC wrote: »
    slaycruz wrote: »
    I don't expect it to be silent....I think it will be more responsive just got to get one and put it through the tekken paces lol

    By chance, do you have the original 303-FK to make a comparison?

    I installed the CWL 307 in my Red Q4 LE tonight. I've played with the 303-FK beforehand. It's fairly responsive - the larger actuator does help a bit. I noticed that the switches are the same as ones used in the 303-FK however. Seems like they are spaced out a bit more to accommodate the new actuator size.

    The problem with me testing this model is that I'm no pro at fighting games. LowFierce on Twitter has helped review a number of products for me, so I may send him a unit for his feedback. He's quite good at gameplay:



    From my experience playing Ken and Guile in USF4, and Forrest Law in Tekken, I'm able to perform the attacks I'm familiar with no problems. However, it really depends on someone who is intimately familiar with Crown or Fanta products to make a better assessment.

    I'll have them up on April 18. If they move reasonably, I'll keep offering them. If not, then I'll look into other solutions. Pricing at $30 because the cost isn't much less than that will turn off some people, I understand. However, they may find this a good solution for both Street Fighter and Tekken gameplay.

  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    @shaunLEGEND okay - that was indeed my mistake then. At the time, I didn't spend much time reviewing the switches as closely as I did after one customer asked specifically which switches were on the 307. That required me to physically remove the switch from the 307's housing. It was there that I discovered they were a Panasonic model AM51630C69N. After that, I was able to compare it to the replacement switches we purchased for the LS-32 and LS-40 fastener models, which is a Panasonic model AM51662C5N. From there, I made a force comparison between the Panasonic model and the Gersung model that comes with the 303-FK, as illustrated by @wazwuz in this YouTube video:



    I found that the panasonic model has a lighter touch - it gave way before the Gersung model switch lever did.

    Anyway, yes I will look into the exact model with Japanese mount. I'm getting confirmation as to which model that is, though I suspect it is model CWL-307FJ-KMS-ST, with FJ potentially representing "Flat Japanese", KMS meaning "Korean Microswitch", and ST referring to "Silicone Tension".
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  • AmimitlAmimitl Joined: Posts: 22
    This video says matsushita is obviously harder, yet u say it has lighter touch than gersung. Am i missing something?
  • PresidentCamachoPresidentCamacho Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Joined: Posts: 3,455
    Amimitl wrote: »
    This video says matsushita is obviously harder, yet u say it has lighter touch than gersung. Am i missing something?

    Owning both Matsushita and Gersung long lever switches, I can tell you firsthand that the Gersungs are harder to depress. Gersungs are pretty stiff.

    Play Crimzon Clover, or go to hell.
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    Amimitl wrote: »
    This video says matsushita is obviously harder, yet u say it has lighter touch than gersung. Am i missing something?

    I watched the video again, and from the first test, it showed the matsushita as softer. The matsushita was at top right with red piece under the lever and white labeling, and gersung bottom left of the test with no labeling. My own tests matched what was said in the video, and @PresidentCamacho's findings.
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  • AmimitlAmimitl Joined: Posts: 22
    Oh yeah, thats a misread from me. Thanks for your help.
  • SpacedOutCadetSpacedOutCadet AKA roejo Joined: Posts: 55
    aw man i was just about to make another purchase and you're out of ps360's :'(
  • shaunLEGENDshaunLEGEND SF2:CE 4EVER! Joined: Posts: 75
    @jmanDMC thanks for all the responses. So if you are able to order the crown 307 with the silicon and Korean switches(I'm just assuming that's the tekken stick), would it come in before that coupon expires?
  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    aw man i was just about to make another purchase and you're out of ps360's :'(

    I tried hard not to run out, asking Akishop to ship a restock weeks ago. They finally shipped a small batch, with another batch coming in a few weeks. We're gonna be out for the first time since last July. :pensive:
    @jmanDMC thanks for all the responses. So if you are able to order the crown 307 with the silicon and Korean switches(I'm just assuming that's the tekken stick), would it come in before that coupon expires?

    If it didn't come before the coupon expires, I'd extend the coupon expiration. But yes, I'd try to order it next restock. Listing should be easy enough as the main difference is switch and grommet.
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  • armi0024armi0024 Dash Cancel Expert, paradisearcadeshop.com Joined: Posts: 1,826
    edited April 2015
    jmanDMC wrote: »
    and honestly, there is only one supplier that US vendors are buying from, unless they are able to visit Korea. Crown isn't that open a company to do business with, based on what my supplier mentioned. I'm lucky they had some connections in Korea, and that one of the higher-ups were friends with a staff member at Crown, or no one would have as accessible a supplier. That said, I've asked my contact to confirm the exact model that is used in Tekken 7, and pick up a few units.

    To clarify, FA may only have one supplier they use, others are available to other vendors in the US. And the supplier that FA had acquire Crown products was not the first to make these available to US stores. Etokki has always been willing to supply US stores, and Laugh had been more than accommodating. He has also been a joy to spend time with at Evo for the last two years. We chose to use laugh primarily as a supplier because of his direct relationship with the Korean companies and his work in the FGC.

    While we do use the same supplier as FA, from time to time. The majority of our Korean orders are from other sources.

    Based on the message relayed to us by another Korean supplier, Crown is quoted as saying the official Tekken 7 stick in Korea is the CWL-307-ST. They did not clarify the particular microswitch.






    Post edited by armi0024 on
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  • jmanDMCjmanDMC Focusattack.com Joined: Posts: 2,544
    Okay, Bryan. Thanks for the insight. My best to Laugh if this is the case.

    On that, some good things coming all around in a few weeks, for fighting game players and arcade heads alike.
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  • armi0024armi0024 Dash Cancel Expert, paradisearcadeshop.com Joined: Posts: 1,826
    Jaleel we told you Laugh was selling a when the first conflict about Crown erupted so I am not sure why you would have made a statement taking credit for bringing these to the US. Not to mention Lizard Lick carried them also, and did not stock through your supplier.

    I am sorry, but we have had these conversations in private. You have asked to cease all conversations in private, and then you make statements that are patently false to try and make your involvement look different than it is. While you tend to claim ignorance of facts after, many times you and I have had a discussion of the facts privately. While providing and spreading false information for the sake of advertising your business maybe allowed in other venues, I think your approach is a disservice, especially in Tech Talk. All I am asking and have asked before is that you are honest in your statements and you make sure you know your facts before making broad statements about our practice or others.

    My guess is in a few weeks you will announce something like the ST's we said we were bringing in and Mag Sticks from IL. Mag Sticks would make sense since it's been 2 months since we added them to our store. Make sure you order them with .187 fitting on the microswitches, the default is a .250 with IL, but they can send with .187. And keep in mind that the mounting plate is different from stock IL or Japanese sticks, as these are commonly used in Mame cabinets.
    www.paradisearcadeshop.com Sanwa, Seimitsu and a ton of custom parts
    2015 Tech Talk Store of the Year and Product of the Year, OBS-MX buttons
    2014 Tech Talk Stick Mod of the Year, LVT3 TE2
    2013 Tech Talk Store of the Year and Product of the Year, Kaimana Led Controller
  • PresidentCamachoPresidentCamacho Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Joined: Posts: 3,455
    You're honestly nitpicking the line "or no one would have as accessible a supplier" to that degree? Customers in the present don't give a shit who had something first anyways, only who has it when they're looking to buy. Feeling like you should have exclusive rights to something because you imported it first is pretty ridiculous in any case.
    Play Crimzon Clover, or go to hell.
  • PresidentCamachoPresidentCamacho Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Joined: Posts: 3,455
    Something else customers do give a shit about: prompt and courteous shipping, communication, and service with orders. Priorities.
    Play Crimzon Clover, or go to hell.
  • TheGlowTheGlow Inverted Reverse Fall-away Master Joined: Posts: 900 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    unrelated, but just had to point this out:

    2015-04-22_1212.png

    Murica.
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    I mean, I purchase from FA so far because they have some products that no one else provides such as the GamerFinger PCB and the aluminum ball tops and the service in of itself as been great.

    The tricky part isn't necessarily "who did it first" or "exclusivity" but the issue is with Jaleel's pattern to say incorrect or misleading pieces of information (and intent to do so is dubious and if nebulous). The integrity of truth is jeopardized. The integrity about product claims is jeopardized. How much one actually cares for truth, when it comes to arcade parts retail and distribution, is a proposition of value an individual makes; it's up to the individual if that matters to one's self when making purchasing decisions.

    For me, although what has arisen through these posts and the "FA Criticism" thread from months ago, I'm a bit ambivalent. I don't like the "pretend to not know" card, KOWAL debacle, and these most current fiascoes; but, still no one else is providing GamerFinger PCBs or aluminum ball tops. So do I care about marketplace integrity? Yes, but it's not going to stop me from buying that PCB from FA.

    When PA doesn't provide HBFS-24 white buttons with white caps, I'm going to order it from FA since the shipping would be less than if I were to buy it from Akishop. If I had stuff I want to buy from Akishop and was more efficient and economic to import from them, I'd order from Akishop instead. Since no one else seems to be selling OBS-30As in Black, I'm going to buy them from Akishop just like how I got my Alu ball tops from FA (I really wish there were OBS-30Bs in Black but doesn't seem like that's ever gonna happen). Likewise for PA, no one else seems to do Anodized Alu Black Caps for OBSC buttons and I'd like to put that on top of OBSC plungers on OBS-30A buttons for my Kuro VLX along with the PA Anodized Alu Black Bat Top, Shaft Cover, and Dust Washer. Only they provide that and I'll will buy that from them regardless of any compromised integrity or distribution drama that's happening. There are no other places to get those items.

    Am I a dirty, consumerist pig? Ever since I started browsing Tech Talk instead of Fighting Game Discussion, I certainly have been indulging in these feelings that I have never felt before! But, if multiple vendors have the same item, I'd like to gauge between costs saved and my "perceived image of the company" and weigh in where I should order from. So I may have a tendency to lean towards PA or Arcade Shock if all the vendors have the same item, but if the price difference is great enough I may order from FA or such regardless. Doesn't help that PA gives chocolates which muddles the decision process. Also peer pressure affects me because I have a good friend that disapproves of me for buying from Focus Attack because of all these debacles, but that doesn't stop me as well from getting that GamerFinger PCB.

    On the other hand, although I do care about these aspects of integrity and such coming to light, I feel like there are better ways of creating discourse about it. With how Moonchilde handled it in that previous thread that was inevitably closed, too much personal emotion and mudslinging made such discourse difficult and further muddled the discussion.

    ----

    Re-reading my post before I post it, it does seem like "real exclusivity" (as recognized by established laws and written contracts) does greatly affect my purchasing decisions because if I buy one thing that I can't get anywhere else, I might as well min-max shipping and get something else I need from the same place. Outside of "real exclusivity", cost and company image and integrity are the next deciding factors. What I don't like is people creating false images of integrity or feigning ignorance when a mistake is made instead of owning up to it; I'd want real trust instead of perceived trust.

    First impressions are also a factor. Although my recent purchases from Paradise have been great, that very first one where my order took about 2 months after payment to complete (the first package was an incomplete order due to broken laser light bulbs, training new packer, and slew of other factors) and how rough communication was, that first order left an impression on me that affects my future purchasing decisions. On Focus Attack's end, their first impression to me was really quick and efficient and friendly, regardless of the extraneous image factors by the aforementioned debacles.

    Why does Tech Talk inspire me to analyze, assess, and reevaluate my ethics as a consumer of all places? I'm just a sub-human, consumerist rat that really wants a convenient optical PCB with a built in voltage converter and 9 lbf. springs.

    Also, whoever makes colored (especially black) completely anodized aluminum buttons first, I'll buy it! How wretched I am...
  • PresidentCamachoPresidentCamacho Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho Joined: Posts: 3,455
    @Laban
    Ask yourself this: who has made slime chucking (both in pm and in public) and community peer pressure the cornerstones of their business, and who has made customer service the cornerstone of theirs? Which shows more integrity to you? In this specific attempt at stirring up a shitstorm, who exactly was making the dubious or misleading claim?

    How many of these so called "egregious offenses" on fa's part (such as having "copycat actuators" in a product description, selling purple buttons that iL made out of existing molds and colors, or saying "or no one would have as accessible a supplier") amount to anything, particularly in contrast to the consistent open and private onslaught of actual shit throwing directed at Jaleel?

    Disregard the tribe opinion and think for yourself. A business succeeds by focusing on customers and using profits to expand into goods/services that enough of its customers want to be profitable- this is FA does, and some people just don't want the competition. Claims of "community interests" boil down to very thinly veiled calls for protectionism.
    Play Crimzon Clover, or go to hell.
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    @PresidentCamacho
    "Which shows more integrity? In this specific attempt at stirring up a shitstorm, who exactly was making the dubious or misleading claims?"

    At this point, I'd say amounts of integrity are unquantifiable. Both sides are imperfect within varying capacities and there is no need to falsely dichotomize those capacities. So who shows more integrity? No sides, both have compromised it.

    Let's dial it back first. For this discussion, how is integrity defined? Simply taking a definition from dictionary.com, Integrity is: "adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty"

    So if we value something or someone as having or not having "integrity," we must come to a clearly set and understood standard of "integrity" and especially within this capacity as an arcade parts vendor.

    It would be difficult to further the discussion based on ambiguously defined or understood glittering generalities (vague words or phrases used to evoke positive/negative feelings rather than to convey concise information.) So before I can really make a claim and defend it, thus making an argument, we must come to an agreement of what does it truly mean to have integrity as a vendor.

    So when we talk about "who has made slime chucking (both in pm and in public) and community peer pressure the cornerstones of their business, and who has made customer service the cornerstone of theirs," we have the concept of peer pressuring, the concept of mudslinging, the concept of customer service as aspects of integrity, whether valued positively or negatively.

    Other aspects may include product description misleading (if intentional or not intentional). Other aspects may include community or Customer-Vendor transparency. Other aspects may include a number of many other factors. There isn't a zero sum game either when it comes integrity. Just because one has great customer service (in regards to communication, feedback, and timely shipping & delivery) doesn't negate misleading product descriptions or misleading stories of distribution experiences. In this case, these are alleged cases; and I won't say it did or did not happen. I do not have that information. I do not have sufficient information. Even these alleged "on-goings" between people on Private Messaging and Direct Messaging, I have insufficient information to decide one way or another.

    So lastly for now, based on what I have seen, how I have been serviced, and what I have experienced, I would come to the ephemeral conclusion that neither side, in this case between Paradise Arcade Shop and Focus Attack, shows more integrity than the other. If I want to keep close to my values of logical argumentation, I don't know what the standards of integrity are for an arcade parts vendor. If I don't know those standards, I don't know if each company or the persons involved adhere to those standards of integrity. So I then state, "I do not know if Paradise Arcade Shop and Focus Attack adhere to standards of vendor integrity." "I do not know who has 'more integrity' than the other." That is the most logical conclusion I can come to so far within this discussion. There are the known unknowns such as the PMs/DMs and what have you. Then there are the unknown unknowns in this conversation that may factor into the overall argument that we simply haven't brought to the table yet because we don't know that they're there. So I'll leave it at that.

    That being said, I like the products I have purchased from both places and I hope I don't have a hawked loogie in any of my future transactions/purchases from either company just because I expressed my honest perspective on the issue. Doing so anyways would be indicative of a lack of character, prestige, and "integrity." I got most of what I wanted anyways, I could just order from Arcade Shock and Akishop from now on. B)
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