KOF 98UM Final Edition?

jamiejame911jamiejame911 Ever learningJoined: Posts: 424
What is the inside story on this one? I love KOF 98UM on Xbox, but what is this edition supposed to address?
Casually playing:
SFIV: Fei, Yun
ST: Ryu, Deejay
SG: Valentine
«1345

Comments

  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Nothing Comes Easy Joined: Posts: 1,927
    itll probably be a port of 98um hero to nesica
    nignagnog: minority report
    nignagnog: you got punished for your future crimes
    BossG: anybody that's black already suffers under pre-crime laws
  • AlexanderAlexander Joined: Posts: 977
    Anyone get the 98 Hero rom yet? Let's get it on FBA and GGPO this mother.
  • droldrol Joined: Posts: 15
    What is the inside story on this one? I love KOF 98UM on Xbox, but what is this edition supposed to address?

    KOF98UM could not beat KOF98 Vanilla in the arcades because it is unbalanced

    So SNKP will try again to level the characters with Final Edition
  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,809
    KOF98UM could not beat KOF98 Vanilla in the arcades because it is unbalanced

    So SNKP will try again to level the characters with Final Edition
    Did you suddennly forget about Vanilla Daimon & Chizuru
    Are you right? Are you READY!?
  • droldrol Joined: Posts: 15
    Did you suddennly forget about Vanilla Daimon & Chizuru

    Vanilla is not perfect, but it is much better than KOF98UM

    And I have not even quoted the new created Bugs ...
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    KOF98UM could not beat KOF98 Vanilla in the arcades because it is unbalanced

    Fuckin' seriously...?
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • Dandy JDandy J now you face a super saiyan shaolin Joined: Posts: 2,790
    5 char top tier > 2 char top tier
    "The challenge is, how can we create a mechanic where it makes your mistakes not matter and turns the game into a clown show? All these solutions are great but they don't take into account what X-Factor is supposed to do, which is turn the game into a joke."- O. Seth Killian
  • droldrol Joined: Posts: 15
    Fuckin' seriously...?

    Serious...

    KOF 98: Ultimate Match

    SSS Tier: Krauser, (Ex) Geese, Iori
    SS Tier: Chris (Orochi), Geese, Choi
    S Tier: Daimon, Terry (Both), Saisyu, Takuma
    A Tier: Brian, Ryo, King (Both), Chris, Yashiro (Orochi), Athena, Mr. Big
    B Tier: Kim, Mature, Yamazaki (both), Yuri (Ex), Benimaru, Kagura, Ryo (Ex), Robert, Kyo (Ex), Heidern
    C Tier: Kasumi, Yuri (Normal), Leona, Eiji, Yashiro, Mai (Both), Mary (Both), Joe (Both), Kyo, Ralf
    D Tier: Clark, Heavy D!, Chang, Robert (Ex), Vice, Billy (Both), Andy (Both), Shermie
    E Tier: Shermie (Orochi), Shingo, Lucky
    Missing Tier: Rugal, Chin, and Kensou

    KOF 98: The Slugfest

    S Class: Kyo, Goro, Chizuru, Iori
    A Class: Benimaru, Robert, Ralf, Chang, Yashiro (Orochi), Chris, Chris (Orochi)
    B Class: Kyo (95) , Terry, Joe, Yashiro, Takuma
    C Class: Ryo, Clark, Kensou, Yamazaki, Mary, Mature
    D Class: Terry (Alt) * , Ryo (Alt) , Leona, Athena, Chin, Mai , Mai (Alt) , King, Choi, Kim, Shermie, Vice, Shingo, Saishu
    E Class: Robert (Alt) , Yuri, Heavy D
    F Class: Andy, Yuri (Alt) , Billy, Heidern, Brian, Rugal
    G Class: Andy (Alt) , Joe (Alt) , Billy (Alt) , Shermie (Orochi), Lucky
  • jamiejame911jamiejame911 Ever learning Joined: Posts: 424
    Heavy D and O Shermie are really that low?
    Casually playing:
    SFIV: Fei, Yun
    ST: Ryu, Deejay
    SG: Valentine
  • sibarrazsibarraz Joined: Posts: 191
    People should stop to fucking base opinions on tier list, even though one game had only 2 two SSS characters doesn't hide the fact in 98 UM, the rest of the characters had way more chances than frginn chizuru, goro, kyo, orochi chris and Iori in 98
  • Dandy JDandy J now you face a super saiyan shaolin Joined: Posts: 2,790
    the low tiers have a way better time fighting tops in og98 than 98um. same reason msp is manageable by low tiers in marvel but scrub is not. its not about relative power its about match ups
    "The challenge is, how can we create a mechanic where it makes your mistakes not matter and turns the game into a clown show? All these solutions are great but they don't take into account what X-Factor is supposed to do, which is turn the game into a joke."- O. Seth Killian
  • Tech RomancerTech Romancer PSN: Tech_Romancer Joined: Posts: 5,200
    the low tiers have a way better time fighting tops in og98 than 98um. same reason msp is manageable by low tiers in marvel but scrub is not. its not about relative power its about match ups

    Good analogy.
    youtube.com/user/Ergeniz
    "Problem with Marvel is when you are not mashing you are losing". - 9thPixel
  • ShishiohShishioh Starbreaker Joined: Posts: 2,921
    the low tiers have a way better time fighting tops in og98 than 98um. same reason msp is manageable by low tiers in marvel but scrub is not. its not about relative power its about match ups

    I beg to differ...

    Og 98 was pretty brutal if you had to face a good Iori or Chizuru with someone like Lucky or Brian.

    UM made the worst characters that much better where they could at least compete. Rugal and Brian pretty much shot up out of nowhere in the whole spectrum of things.

    And that list up there is too damn big. SSS...really?
    "Hitboxes have nothing at all to do with the way a fighting game plays. they are just a means to an end."-Random Discus user
    Written exactly like that.
  • Dandy JDandy J now you face a super saiyan shaolin Joined: Posts: 2,790
    both lucky and brian have good normals, and good normals are useful vs rushdown characters. krauser or ex geese however, do not give a fuck how good your normals are. those 2 are harder match ups for those 2 characters than any of those that exist in og98
    "The challenge is, how can we create a mechanic where it makes your mistakes not matter and turns the game into a clown show? All these solutions are great but they don't take into account what X-Factor is supposed to do, which is turn the game into a joke."- O. Seth Killian
  • ShishiohShishioh Starbreaker Joined: Posts: 2,921
    both lucky and brian have good normals, and good normals are useful vs rushdown characters. krauser or ex geese however, do not give a fuck how good your normals are. those 2 are harder match ups for those 2 characters than any of those that exist in og98

    I'll give you Lucky but a good Brian can rape all but the most sound Krausers. Lucky has it easier vs Ex Geese though.

    Hopefully I can get XTG to play 98um so we can record some matchup specific stuff.
    "Hitboxes have nothing at all to do with the way a fighting game plays. they are just a means to an end."-Random Discus user
    Written exactly like that.
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Serious...

    KOF 98: Ultimate Match

    SSS Tier: Krauser, (Ex) Geese, Iori
    SS Tier: Chris (Orochi), Geese, Choi
    S Tier: Daimon, Terry (Both), Saisyu, Takuma
    A Tier: Brian, Ryo, King (Both), Chris, Yashiro (Orochi), Athena, Mr. Big
    B Tier: Kim, Mature, Yamazaki (both), Yuri (Ex), Benimaru, Kagura, Ryo (Ex), Robert, Kyo (Ex), Heidern
    C Tier: Kasumi, Yuri (Normal), Leona, Eiji, Yashiro, Mai (Both), Mary (Both), Joe (Both), Kyo, Ralf
    D Tier: Clark, Heavy D!, Chang, Robert (Ex), Vice, Billy (Both), Andy (Both), Shermie
    E Tier: Shermie (Orochi), Shingo, Lucky
    Missing Tier: Rugal, Chin, and Kensou

    KOF 98: The Slugfest

    S Class: Kyo, Goro, Chizuru, Iori
    A Class: Benimaru, Robert, Ralf, Chang, Yashiro (Orochi), Chris, Chris (Orochi)
    B Class: Kyo (95) , Terry, Joe, Yashiro, Takuma
    C Class: Ryo, Clark, Kensou, Yamazaki, Mary, Mature
    D Class: Terry (Alt) * , Ryo (Alt) , Leona, Athena, Chin, Mai , Mai (Alt) , King, Choi, Kim, Shermie, Vice, Shingo, Saishu
    E Class: Robert (Alt) , Yuri, Heavy D
    F Class: Andy, Yuri (Alt) , Billy, Heidern, Brian, Rugal
    G Class: Andy (Alt) , Joe (Alt) , Billy (Alt) , Shermie (Orochi), Lucky

    Yes, I've seen both of those tier lists before, and the KOF 98UM one is still idiotic.
    There's no such thing as "SSS" tier in that game, and even if there was, the relative difference between the top and bottom in KOF98UM is pretty much the same as regular 98.
    I'm not saying 98UM is perfectly balanced, but if anybody thinks regular 98' is that much better then they're a fucking twit.
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • Hatred EdgeHatred Edge MAD STRUGGLE Joined: Posts: 15,914
    Fucking Choi is that high in 98UM? FUCKING CHOI?!:mad:

    Wait wait... why am I getting mad? I don't play anyone in that game anyway.
    Has anyone thanked you today for not setting the whole world on fire?

    They should. I won't. I advocate setting the world on fire. But morons who actually like it, benefit from society, would do well to thank you and men like you for not visiting hell upon them.

    "You don't know what it's like to hate. To have your entire life become nothing more than an expression of hate. Nothing else matters. Nothing else can compare. Or taste as sweet."
  • Syxx573Syxx573 Jo Mama Joined: Posts: 8,963
    i think in kof in general like many games the tiers are more based off of individual strengths and weaknesses while games like sf are more based off of individual matchup charts, simply because the system is so flexible. Of course individual matchups do play a role in tiers but not to the same degree.
  • XTGXTG Gimme mah DYREKTEEV Joined: Posts: 2,363
    I'll give you Lucky but a good Brian can rape all but the most sound Krausers. Lucky has it easier vs Ex Geese though.

    Hopefully I can get XTG to play 98um so we can record some matchup specific stuff.

    I do wanna play O. Yashiro VS KOF 98 UM Top Tier just for matchup experience/study.
    a real job, first day of a road trip, or a blowjob should be the only reason to wake up at 7am
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Serious...

    KOF 98: Ultimate Match

    SSS Tier: Krauser, (Ex) Geese, Iori
    SS Tier: Chris (Orochi), Geese, Choi
    S Tier: Daimon, Terry (Both), Saisyu, Takuma
    A Tier: Brian, Ryo, King (Both), Chris, Yashiro (Orochi), Athena, Mr. Big
    B Tier: Kim, Mature, Yamazaki (both), Yuri (Ex), Benimaru, Kagura, Ryo (Ex), Robert, Kyo (Ex), Heidern
    C Tier: Kasumi, Yuri (Normal), Leona, Eiji, Yashiro, Mai (Both), Mary (Both), Joe (Both), Kyo, Ralf
    D Tier: Clark, Heavy D!, Chang, Robert (Ex), Vice, Billy (Both), Andy (Both), Shermie
    E Tier: Shermie (Orochi), Shingo, Lucky
    Missing Tier: Rugal, Chin, and Kensou

    Where'd you get this list from? It totally doesn't match what I see in Japanese match videos (tournaments especially). I don't understand why Takuma or Daimon are so high up, or how Eiji and Ex Yuri are so low.

    Also the modes being used really change the tiers of some characters. From what I see, Kim with walk and ex mode meter is comparable, tierwise, to Krauser (or pretty close).

    98UM is a lot more diverse (minus Krauser). Game is more balanced than 98.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • droldrol Joined: Posts: 15
    In the end no matter what we think KOF98UM was a flop in the arcades so Final Edition is coming
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Where'd you get this list from? It totally doesn't match what I see in Japanese match videos (tournaments especially). I don't understand why Takuma or Daimon are so high up, or how Eiji and Ex Yuri are so low.

    Also the modes being used really change the tiers of some characters. From what I see, Kim with walk and ex mode meter is comparable, tierwise, to Krauser (or pretty close).

    Not only that, but it groups normal and EX versions of characters that don't even make sense.
    I've almost never seen regular King compared to EX King which is on a lot of teams, but this tier list puts them together.
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • Dandy JDandy J now you face a super saiyan shaolin Joined: Posts: 2,790
    i saw king after ex king newness wore off
    "The challenge is, how can we create a mechanic where it makes your mistakes not matter and turns the game into a clown show? All these solutions are great but they don't take into account what X-Factor is supposed to do, which is turn the game into a joke."- O. Seth Killian
  • sibarrazsibarraz Joined: Posts: 191
    Heavy D E tier, Eiji C tier

    Now SERIOUSLY?

    98 UM tier list is really retarded, lots of times eiji is my best character to beat some krausers, and lots of times I had seen E tier players beating krauser, he is not that invencible

    98 and 98 um are both very balanced games, but in UM lots of characters had more options than in OG
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 1,928
    UM made Extra mode useful, which instantly makes it worse than OG 98.
  • Tech RomancerTech Romancer PSN: Tech_Romancer Joined: Posts: 5,200
    UM made Extra mode useful, which instantly makes it worse than OG 98.

    I don't understand.
    youtube.com/user/Ergeniz
    "Problem with Marvel is when you are not mashing you are losing". - 9thPixel
  • danixcodanixco Joined: Posts: 39
    Anyone get the 98 Hero rom yet? Let's get it on FBA and GGPO this mother.

    I can get the orange, but i don't know how to extract the juice, you know what I mean :wgrin:, if someone point me in the right direction we can do this together.

    Get the juice, talk with GGPO/request (I don't know how it works), pay a donation to GGPO (like the same $$ for download in XBLA or wathever in order to give a big THANKS to them) and then everyone play happy 98UM; sounds fun to me and a good investment.

    I'll just wait for an answer, maybe redirect me to another site/forum. Also, what it means FBA?
  • AlexanderAlexander Joined: Posts: 977
    Have you tried the Guru at the Rom Dump? Dependable dude. I'd gladly donate to get this on GGPO/Supercade. Though they might not upload it due to fear of reprisal from SNKP, but we could still kailllera this bitch.

    Also FBA means Fina Burn Alpha, the emulator used by GGPO/Supercade/Arclive.
  • danixcodanixco Joined: Posts: 39
    Have you tried the Guru at the Rom Dump? Dependable dude. I'd gladly donate to get this on GGPO/Supercade. Though they might not upload it due to fear of reprisal from SNKP, but we could still kailllera this bitch.

    Also FBA means Fina Burn Alpha, the emulator used by GGPO/Supercade/Arclive.

    It looks like we'll have to wait. There's some restrictions from FBA using less than 3 years old roms. Also I have mixed reviews from the Rom Dump guy (plus ship the thing to AUS and wait if he's capable to do it; just read PGM1 is not fully emulated right now. I thought this was an easy process, like I can do it at home (PC + cables):sad:.

    Looks like the best option right now is to "inform" SNK (same method as 02um) about XBLA 98UM netcode.
  • Dark GeeseDark Geese Joined: Posts: 12,439
    Sigh...smdh..I gotta agree with Emil on this one guys, why do you guys judge too damn much on tier lists? Seriously? Geez I hate to sound pessimistic but does anything change around here? Obsessing over tier lists and stuff like that are for people that don't play the game that much...bottom line is play the game more people and stop obsessing over let's see..JAPANESE/ASIAN TIER LISTS. Tiers are different for different countries, when will the USA ever get this concept? Or will they ever get this concept? There is no ONE "RIGHT" Tier List!! Different countries have different styles, favor different characters, thus there will be different tier lists!

    Play more, jockride tier lists LESS.

    Juarez, Mexico Tier list for 98UM looks different, looks like this:

    S Class:
    Krauser, Iori, Geese/EX, EX Mary, Orochi Chris, Orochi Yashiro, Eiji, Kyo,Yuri/EX, EX King

    A Class:

    Daimon, Mr. Big, Heavy D, Robert, EX Ryo, Chizuru, EX Robert

    Again I think the problem is you guys aren't playing that much or aren't playing very, very skilled players in this game. Because if you were, you wouldn't care about a Japanese Tier List, you would understand Tier Lists are different depending on where you are...you would grasp that concept thoroughly...

    -DG
    **The KOF Cup 2011: March 10-14th, CDJ, Mexico w/Hummer from JAPAN!**
    **Mexico vs. Japan Part III!!**
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    Sigh...smdh..I gotta agree with Emil on this one guys, why do you guys judge too damn much on tier lists? Seriously? Geez I hate to sound pessimistic but does anything change around here? Obsessing over tier lists and stuff like that are for people that don't play the game that much...bottom line is play the game more people and stop obsessing over let's see..JAPANESE/ASIAN TIER LISTS. Tiers are different for different countries, when will the USA ever get this concept? Or will they ever get this concept? There is no ONE "RIGHT" Tier List!! Different countries have different styles, favor different characters, thus there will be different tier lists!

    Play more, jockride tier lists LESS.

    Juarez, Mexico Tier list for 98UM looks different, looks like this:

    S Class:
    Krauser, Iori, Geese/EX, EX Mary, Orochi Chris, Orochi Yashiro, Eiji, Kyo,Yuri/EX, EX King

    A Class:

    Daimon, Mr. Big, Heavy D, Robert, EX Ryo, Chizuru, EX Robert

    Again I think the problem is you guys aren't playing that much or aren't playing very, very skilled players in this game. Because if you were, you wouldn't care about a Japanese Tier List, you would understand Tier Lists are different depending on where you are...you would grasp that concept thoroughly...

    -DG


    and sorry dude, I have to disagree this time with you on this one,I mean tier lists (in its vast majority) are made for a reason. top tiers are top tiers for those reasons, and will still be top tiers, in any part of the world, sure there are going to be good players , talented, skilled players, in different countries ,wining using either mid tiers or low tiers, but that doesn't mean they are top-god tiers just because of that. Usually the disagreements come in the middle and the bottom parts of those lists but not at the top.
    Also about the list you put there, amm...you also included, Krauser, Geese, Iori...that makes my point, and besides, In juarez they don't actually play that game that much, so any list will be just personal preferences for a character and not much of a tier list.
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    and about this thread, imo OG98 was more unbalanced than 98um, OG daimon and iori are just more unbalanced than any of the 2 bastard half brothers in um... also I don't see why they do have to came with this revised editions everytime, I mean to be fair they should make revised editions for all other kofs that have S.O.B's owning the ass of other characters, I as a player I feel that whenever or wherever I want to play a kof it should be the same kof no matter the console or place I am playing it at, about the people tier whoring, don't bother, just relax, and tagg the person as a pussy and a no skill player, that ussses or abuses them, or just enjoy when u kick their ass using low tiers, or even if you lose feel satisfied knowing that u were different using them
  • TerrastormTerrastorm Joined: Posts: 263
    ^ That's not what he's saying. He's saying that westerners treat Japanese opinions like the bible, and that there would be different lists for different countries. He is not disputing the overall concept of a tier list, just our tendency to think that Japanese opinion is always right.
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    ^ That's not what he's saying. He's saying that westerners treat Japanese opinions like the bible, and that there would be different lists for different countries. He is not disputing the overall concept of a tier list, just our tendency to think that Japanese opinion is always right.

    No, then u didn'tget what I was saying as well ... I wasn't saying he is wrong about what a tier lis t is overall, what I was saying is that tiers are tiers for a reason, a reason that won't change no matter if you are in Japan, Latvia or Kiribati, sure there would be a few changes in 1 cathegories, s tier to a tier or so, but krauser would remain in that place or gato in xi.
  • necronomiCRONnecronomiCRON "IPPEN SHINU DE KOI! Joined: Posts: 109
    The tier list for 98 has to do with the options the characters have for specific situations. For instance Iori and Kyo have a great standing close C that arcs upward, or they can mix up more easily than other characters. Any character can be good in 98, they just don't have as many options, so it takes more to be skilled with them.

    This is why the Japanese tier list is solid to me.
    "No I wanna know something from Mr. Panda Bear here, if you pandas are from mountainous areas of China and Tibet how come you eat bamboo which is prone to grow only in drier more arid regions"
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    agree it has to do with all of that along wth other things as well
  • Dark GeeseDark Geese Joined: Posts: 12,439
    Yeah Nitro that is what I am saying, Westerners treat the Japanese Tier List like it's Gods Word, which is not how it should be at all. Also they are playing 98UM in Juarez more than you think...not as much as 2002 obviously, and not even 2002 UM, but more than you think trust me on that!

    Now give or take you are always gonna find a certain amount of players like Krauser, Iori, Geese that are staple on most tier lists, but there are gonna be variations on tier lists because there are different styles.

    For example, in Juarez Angel is Top Tier in 2002 UM, but in Japan they have her damn near bottom tier, how do you explain that? Location differences...
    **The KOF Cup 2011: March 10-14th, CDJ, Mexico w/Hummer from JAPAN!**
    **Mexico vs. Japan Part III!!**
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    Yeah Nitro that is what I am saying, Westerners treat the Japanese Tier List like it's Gods Word, which is not how it should be at all. Also they are playing 98UM in Juarez more than you think...not as much as 2002 obviously, and not even 2002 UM, but more than you think trust me on that!

    Now give or take you are always gonna find a certain amount of players like Krauser, Iori, Geese that are staple on most tier lists, but there are gonna be variations on tier lists because there are different styles.

    For example, in Juarez Angel is Top Tier in 2002 UM, but in Japan they have her damn near bottom tier, how do you explain that? Location differences...

    well, yeah that's the point, that even in places where the "Japanese" list is debated, u find krauser , geese, etc, and any other tier on other kofs, so even though some people don't like it they(asians) are right at least on that. Of course some variations occur . now regarding on your question of how do I explain that, well imo that happens in Juarez, because certain players are or were at a moment new to the 2002 UM game, so their obvious choice was to play with the characters they knew or played well with in OG2002,ignoring what changes that character suffered, and it's ok they remained playing great with that Angel, even though she isn't top, so ok good for them ^_^ but that doesn't make her top imo, and tons of examples can be named in this matter.
  • Dark GeeseDark Geese Joined: Posts: 12,439
    well, yeah that's the point, that even in places where the "Japanese" list is debated, u find krauser , geese, etc, and any other tier on other kofs, so even though some people don't like it they(asians) are right at least on that. Of course some variations occur . now regarding on your question of how do I explain that, well imo that happens in Juarez, because certain players are or were at a moment new to the 2002 UM game, so their obvious choice was to play with the characters they knew or played well with in OG2002,ignoring what changes that character suffered, and it's ok they remained playing great with that Angel, even though she isn't top, so ok good for them ^_^ but that doesn't make her top imo, and tons of examples can be named in this matter.

    But I say the Juarez players know Angel much better than these Asian players due to the Mexican style revolving around Angel. In Japan etc you have Angels but not as many as you do in Mexico, thus the Mexican players bring out the full potential of Angel that was otherwise not brought out by these Asian players. For example if you play vs. Zeus or Kula's Angel, you will see Angel played at damn near her full potential (certainly Kulas), and it is then that you will realize that she is Top Tier..

    And you can see Kula's Angel dismantling Ivan who is a seasoned player in 2002 UM, not new to the game at all which further showed me that in her full potential Angel is top tier...also those that saw that in Juarez agree with me as well...it's the same stuff around the time Duo Lon Leader sprung up in Juarez, I recall having these types of debates with people, and then the more they saw of Duo Lon Leader, the more they became convinced...

    Plus as I said on Dream Cancel, Angel doesn't have any bad matchups, another sign of someone that is Top Tier, matchup problems. Angel doesn't have any..not Kasumi, Nameless, K', King, any of those, she can compete head to head with any of the top tier..

    Now since Hummer now plays 2002 UM, I would love to see Hummer vs. Zeus and Kula in 2002 UM, I believe certainly these matches will show the power of Angel..

    Even in this match here (older one you were there you left earlier) you can see the power of Angel in 2002 UM:
    image

    But better not to talk about Angel in this thread since she is for what we know NOT in 98 Final Edition lol. (What a surprise that would be!!!! LOL)
    **The KOF Cup 2011: March 10-14th, CDJ, Mexico w/Hummer from JAPAN!**
    **Mexico vs. Japan Part III!!**
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    But I say the Juarez players know Angel much better than these Asian players due to the Mexican style revolving around Angel. In Japan etc you have Angels but not as many as you do in Mexico, thus the Mexican players bring out the full potential of Angel that was otherwise not brought out by these Asian players. For example if you play vs. Zeus or Kula's Angel, you will see Angel played at damn near her full potential (certainly Kulas), and it is then that you will realize that she is Top Tier..

    And you can see Kula's Angel dismantling Ivan who is a seasoned player in 2002 UM, not new to the game at all which further showed me that in her full potential Angel is top tier...also those that saw that in Juarez agree with me as well...it's the same stuff around the time Duo Lon Leader sprung up in Juarez, I recall having these types of debates with people, and then the more they saw of Duo Lon Leader, the more they became convinced...

    Plus as I said on Dream Cancel, Angel doesn't have any bad matchups, another sign of someone that is Top Tier, matchup problems. Angel doesn't have any..not Kasumi, Nameless, K', King, any of those, she can compete head to head with any of the top tier..

    Now since Hummer now plays 2002 UM, I would love to see Hummer vs. Zeus and Kula in 2002 UM, I believe certainly these matches will show the power of Angel..

    Even in this match here (older one you were there you left earlier) you can see the power of Angel in 2002 UM:
    image

    But better not to talk about Angel in this thread since she is for what we know NOT in 98 Final Edition lol. (What a surprise that would be!!!! LOL)

    well yeah I understand your point, but to a degree, I mean maybe I didn't explained myself too well, but what I'm basically saying ( and said) is that top tiers are top tiers by theirselves, is totally independant on who is playing them, is not something the players can control, sure, there are examples of good Angels or good players owning ass with mid, low tiers, but that doesn't make the character ( not the player) a top tier, sure Ismael Angel is devasting like u show in that vid, but that's an example of ismael being a top player, not an angel being top tier character.
    And also, why is he playing angel even in UM? because he has been playing with her for a looooong time in OG and logically it was and it is his first choice in UM, along with whip ( which he uses in OG as well) now he just traded the ridiculous broken atena in OG for king there, but if he had chosen atena in um she would had worked great for him as well because he knows how to play her at her top, but that wouldn't make her top tier in UM either. as u said she might lack of bad match ups but tiers usually have more symptoms, and maybe in Japan she isn't since um increased the stamina and angel has little damage and she lost her infinite ( at last, no more cheapness). That's something in where asians have an edge over some Mexicans, in the ability to adapt better to different games, being able to play with different characters and styles, that's one of the conclusions and analysis one can come up with after seeing the so called videos of cola vs kula and osmani.
    And about duo lon a top tier in xi well, I guess u don't want to get into that again lol but sorry for me he isn't , and to try to compare it as a character and as a leader to oswald ( like the debate was before) is just absurd to me, but it's my own opinion after all.
  • Dark GeeseDark Geese Joined: Posts: 12,439
    Well you are entitled to your opinion, and I would comment on it more but I do not feel it is appropriate for this particular thread, maybe a 2002 UM or KOFXI Thread but not for this particular thread. Tiers are not absolute, and as I say they reflect the players in particular regions...and that's basically all that needs to be said about that particular topic I feel without going into further detail. Some characters may take work but at their maximum potential can hang with the rest of the cast....Angel in 2002 UM is one of those characters and Duo Lon Leader is another, though yes Oswald is better than Duo Lon Leader period, but Duo Lon Leader is better than most of the cast in KOFXI...even WITH their Leaders..

    And remember the TRUE definition of a Tier List:

    It is a list of the characters based off not only ease of use as everyone knows, but who wins tournaments/ranks high in a particular country or region.

    In Juarez you are certainly going to see characters like Duo Lon Leader, Oswald, Kim (L), Duck King, Kula, Malin (L), Ryo ranking high...

    Also Ismael does not like Athena in 2002 UM, he says she doesn't work for him..Athena at best would probably be B to A Class in 2002 UM. Now I am aware there could be things I have not seen and acknoweledge that..
    **The KOF Cup 2011: March 10-14th, CDJ, Mexico w/Hummer from JAPAN!**
    **Mexico vs. Japan Part III!!**
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    Well you are entitled to your opinion, and I would comment on it more but I do not feel it is appropriate for this particular thread, maybe a 2002 UM or KOFXI Thread but not for this particular thread. Tiers are not absolute, and as I say they reflect the players in particular regions...and that's basically all that needs to be said about that particular topic I feel without going into further detail. Some characters may take work but at their maximum potential can hang with the rest of the cast....Angel in 2002 UM is one of those characters and Duo Lon Leader is another, though yes Oswald is better than Duo Lon Leader period, but Duo Lon Leader is better than most of the cast in KOFXI...even WITH their Leaders..

    And remember the TRUE definition of a Tier List:

    It is a list of the characters based off not only ease of use as everyone knows, but who wins tournaments/ranks high in a particular country or region.

    In Juarez you are certainly going to see characters like Duo Lon Leader, Oswald, Kim (L), Duck King, Kula, Malin (L), Ryo ranking high...

    Also Ismael does not like Athena in 2002 UM, he says she doesn't work for him..Athena at best would probably be B to A Class in 2002 UM. Now I am aware there could be things I have not seen and acknoweledge that..

    well then the differences of our criteria might be on what a tier list is for each one of us, for me the top tiers don't neccesarily are dictaded by what is high in any given region, or by who wins tournaments with X or Y character, Kula and Gato will be top tiers, no matter the place, Asia or America,no matter who wins whatever tourney, even you here in Mexico use both of them, also, for me a good player isn't neccesarily who wins X or Y tournaments. Alexis for example, can be wining al tournaments in Juarez using Always clark, yamazaki and billy (and billy is a character every player can use), but will that make him the better player? no, just probably the better player using those characters, since he probably wouldn't make it far using others, and there are lots of examples of people like him, Esteban for example is a better player than him why? cuz winning doesn't dictate who is better , other things such of style of play and the characters used for the tournament ,how did one wins ( clock, perfect, combos, etc),should be factors to consider, with his may lee, to make it effective he has to make 40 or 50% more effort since he has to switch or cancel in between combos,or for pressure strings something a clark or a billy player doesn't need to do, similar thing goes for Angel and a vast list of characters. Kula and osmani got a lesson in all that in those so commented videos.
  • Dark GeeseDark Geese Joined: Posts: 12,439
    well then the differences of our criteria might be on what a tier list is for each one of us, for me the top tiers don't neccesarily are dictaded by what is high in any given region, or by who wins tournaments with X or Y character, Kula and Gato will be top tiers, no matter the place, Asia or America,no matter who wins whatever tourney, even you here in Mexico use both of them, also, for me a good player isn't neccesarily who wins X or Y tournaments. Alexis for example, can be wining al tournaments in Juarez using Always clark, yamazaki and billy (and billy is a character every player can use), but will that make him the better player? no, just probably the better player using those characters, since he probably wouldn't make it far using others, and there are lots of examples of people like him, Esteban for example is a better player than him why? cuz winning doesn't dictate who is better , other things such of style of play and the characters used for the tournament ,how did one wins ( clock, perfect, combos, etc),should be factors to consider, with his may lee, to make it effective he has to make 40 or 50% more effort since he has to switch or cancel in between combos,or for pressure strings something a clark or a billy player doesn't need to do, similar thing goes for Angel and a vast list of characters. Kula and osmani got a lesson in all that in those so commented videos.

    I believe our criteria is different, because to me it's all about winning. It's doing what it takes to win, as Vince Lombardi said, winning is everything. Alexis is considered better than Esteban because he wins, contrary to Emil once thinking he was a scrub, Alexis is far from a scrub. Now see Alexis has been choking as of late, so he may not even make the 6-on-6 cut for the North, that's REAL TALK, you've gotta earn that, and how do you earn that? Ranking high in tournaments, that is the criteria that both me and Lecter use. Me and Lecter just had this conversation yesterday, between Lalo and Esteban, Esteban is a better player overall, but Esteban lets the pressure get to him a lot and it causes him to choke. Lalo handles the pressure with a I don't give a damn attitude, so he does better than Esteban, so who do we say is the better player? Lalo...why? He handles the pressure better.

    So it's just two different ways to look at things. As I say there are no absolutes, but when it comes to international tournaments and stuff I wanna come to some set form of criteria because I refuse to go through JuareZ WarZone ever again, it will be settled win lose or draw who is the better player on not just one day, but THREE TO FOUR DAYS.

    -DG
    **The KOF Cup 2011: March 10-14th, CDJ, Mexico w/Hummer from JAPAN!**
    **Mexico vs. Japan Part III!!**
  • Tech RomancerTech Romancer PSN: Tech_Romancer Joined: Posts: 5,200
    Also Ismael does not like Athena in 2002 UM, he says she doesn't work for him..Athena at best would probably be B to A Class in 2002 UM. Now I am aware there could be things I have not seen and acknoweledge that..

    :rofl:

    Read: Ismael does not like Athena in UM because he can no longer tier whore her like in OG2K2. No more sitting at the top with great zoning game = waste of time playing her now. Just like the May Lee, Angel, Choi player no longer "likes" those characters because they no longer have an infinite, dominating strings and the midget is no longer at the top of the tier list.

    I don't get why these players try to act if they feel out of likeness with the character when it painfully obvious they just tier whore. Thing is, I don't even have an issue with that, just don't get why they don't just come out and say it.
    youtube.com/user/Ergeniz
    "Problem with Marvel is when you are not mashing you are losing". - 9thPixel
  • Dark GeeseDark Geese Joined: Posts: 12,439
    :rofl:

    Read: Ismael does not like Athena in UM because he can no longer tier whore her like in OG2K2. No more sitting at the top with great zoning game = waste of time playing her now. Just like the May Lee, Angel, Choi player no longer "likes" those characters because they no longer have an infinite, dominating strings and the midget is no longer at the top of the tier list.

    I don't get why these players try to act if they feel out of likeness with the character when it painfully obvious they just tier whore. Thing is, I don't even have an issue with that, just don't get why they don't just come out and say it.

    Now that's actually a good interview question to ask him lol.
    **The KOF Cup 2011: March 10-14th, CDJ, Mexico w/Hummer from JAPAN!**
    **Mexico vs. Japan Part III!!**
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    I believe our criteria is different, because to me it's all about winning. It's doing what it takes to win, as Vince Lombardi said, winning is everything. Alexis is considered better than Esteban because he wins, contrary to Emil once thinking he was a scrub, Alexis is far from a scrub. Now see Alexis has been choking as of late, so he may not even make the 6-on-6 cut for the North, that's REAL TALK, you've gotta earn that, and how do you earn that? Ranking high in tournaments, that is the criteria that both me and Lecter use. Me and Lecter just had this conversation yesterday, between Lalo and Esteban, Esteban is a better player overall, but Esteban lets the pressure get to him a lot and it causes him to choke. Lalo handles the pressure with a I don't give a damn attitude, so he does better than Esteban, so who do we say is the better player? Lalo...why? He handles the pressure better.

    So it's just two different ways to look at things. As I say there are no absolutes, but when it comes to international tournaments and stuff I wanna come to some set form of criteria because I refuse to go through JuareZ WarZone ever again, it will be settled win lose or draw who is the better player on not just one day, but THREE TO FOUR DAYS.

    -DG

    well aren't you contradiciting yourself here? double standaring? first you say wining is everything.. then u use another criteria such as pressure managing to define who is better player between lalo and esteban...
    And for me and to other players winning isn't everything, u see, there is "winning", and WINNING for example, if u like soccer , there are teams that win badly, 1-0 defending being pussies, playing bad, and there are others like brazil or netherlands, that WIN playing nice, playing bonito, to them winning playing badly contrary to their style or philosophy means nothing they preffer to loose before winning like that, and that's what make them great. Same thing in kof, there are better players that preffer to know they are better , WIN playing nicely and flashy, with difficult characters to handle, than simply going tier all time. Personaly winning by doing these when I can, tastes better than simply winning using krauser, kula, etc or winning by judgment, time etc, that's why cola is better tahn kula or osmani.
  • Dark GeeseDark Geese Joined: Posts: 12,439
    I don't see it as contradicting myself, to me there is no double standard period, the one that wins the most is the better player, to me it's black and white it's that simple, I do not allow myself to be influenced by other types of thinking, especially when most of the time it's my money being spent to bring a lot of these players over. What I want when it is done is a finality, most questions being answered, whoever won was better, no excuses all of that.

    Yeah of course no one wants to see someone Tier Whore all the time, but from the flip side as even Desmond says in his interview/podcast:

    People are playing for money, which is something people simply have to understand, and until they get to that particular level of play or close, and I do mean that particular level where pressure is high and you are close to tasting that money, then more than likely that is a hard concept to grasp 100% because you've never been in that situation.

    It's almost a fan like perspective, a casual player like perspective, but not a perspective from a competitive player that is trying to do what it takes to win, and that's the type of player I am and those are the criterias I use.

    Now I tell people even when they watch my videos if they don't like the fact that I use XYZ character I tell them they can always choose not to watch, that is their God given right, no one is making them watch, but when I am playing seriously for money on the line I am going to use the characters not only I feel the most comfortable with be it if they are top tier or not, but the ones I FEEL fit my style and give me the BEST chance to win.

    Now if I am losing who knows I could pull out some surprise characters and at times I do, that is the benefit of learning the entire cast, you could exploit a matchup that your opponent may not know, and that may be the difference in the game.

    So summary- Criteria for me bottom line is wins...wins period, wins/ranking high...that's it..nothing more, nothing less. Winning/ranking high with consistency...

    Alexis=Better than Esteban why? Alexis has beaten Esteban in tournaments more and has ranked higher than Esteban more often.

    Lalo is better than Esteban why? Lalo has consistently ranked higher than Esteban in tournaments.

    That is my criteria. I keep it simple, I don't like complicating it, especially when we are talking about an excess of $2,000 being spent on these things, I like to keep it simple and get questions answered. I leave the discussions, theories, all that stuff to you guys, my job is to get answers...
    **The KOF Cup 2011: March 10-14th, CDJ, Mexico w/Hummer from JAPAN!**
    **Mexico vs. Japan Part III!!**
  • BiGGDaddyCaneBiGGDaddyCane ☵☳☷☵☴☵☳☲☷☵ Joined: Posts: 932
    Its ambitious as hell in this thread and from what I see at the moment its not even rightfully about the topic of the thread. But hey whatever.....
    " I'll stain my hands with your blood - Geese "
    KOF 98 Slugfest Dream Match Never Ends
  • Dark GeeseDark Geese Joined: Posts: 12,439
    Its ambitious as hell in this thread and from what I see at the moment its not even rightfully about the topic of the thread. But hey whatever.....

    Hence I say if we wanna talk about 2002 UM and KOFXI we should direct it to those particular threads...if it wants to be about 98UM FE then we can keep it here lol.
    **The KOF Cup 2011: March 10-14th, CDJ, Mexico w/Hummer from JAPAN!**
    **Mexico vs. Japan Part III!!**
  • nitro2345nitro2345 Joined: Posts: 43
    I don't see it as contradicting myself, to me there is no double standard period, the one that wins the most is the better player, to me it's black and white it's that simple, I do not allow myself to be influenced by other types of thinking, especially when most of the time it's my money being spent to bring a lot of these players over. What I want when it is done is a finality, most questions being answered, whoever won was better, no excuses all of that.

    Yeah of course no one wants to see someone Tier Whore all the time, but from the flip side as even Desmond says in his interview/podcast:

    People are playing for money, which is something people simply have to understand, and until they get to that particular level of play or close, and I do mean that particular level where pressure is high and you are close to tasting that money, then more than likely that is a hard concept to grasp 100% because you've never been in that situation.

    It's almost a fan like perspective, a casual player like perspective, but not a perspective from a competitive player that is trying to do what it takes to win, and that's the type of player I am and those are the criterias I use.

    Now I tell people even when they watch my videos if they don't like the fact that I use XYZ character I tell them they can always choose not to watch, that is their God given right, no one is making them watch, but when I am playing seriously for money on the line I am going to use the characters not only I feel the most comfortable with be it if they are top tier or not, but the ones I FEEL fit my style and give me the BEST chance to win.

    Now if I am losing who knows I could pull out some surprise characters and at times I do, that is the benefit of learning the entire cast, you could exploit a matchup that your opponent may not know, and that may be the difference in the game.

    So summary- Criteria for me bottom line is wins...wins period, wins/ranking high...that's it..nothing more, nothing less. Winning/ranking high with consistency...

    Alexis=Better than Esteban why? Alexis has beaten Esteban in tournaments more and has ranked higher than Esteban more often.

    Lalo is better than Esteban why? Lalo has consistently ranked higher than Esteban in tournaments.

    That is my criteria. I keep it simple, I don't like complicating it, especially when we are talking about an excess of $2,000 being spent on these things, I like to keep it simple and get questions answered. I leave the discussions, theories, all that stuff to you guys, my job is to get answers...

    Well this seems that is getting nowhere because, we don't understand each other way of thinking, so I will try to ressume it as much as I can with one example, btw I never talked about money, u brought that up, money playing, life playing, regular tournament, or whatever it's just part of the enviroment, the atmosphere....but for me, and other people, fans or not as u called us, there is "winning", and Winning , playing nice, bonito, flashy whatever, I for example, ( I don't know if you) would respect more, and admire more a player that wins a tourney, money on the line or not, ( mostly money) using chin, mature and seth than a common one tier whoring with atena or kim etc, not just in kof, like in baseball, "oh! yankees have won the world series!" but meeeh...they have all the money in the world, but if the I dunno pithsburg pirates won! now that creates more excitement and respect for the people, and that is exactly what the videos of cola vs kula and osmani represent and lets not forget other players that have done things like those , mostly asian, Because all of these, and other stuff I mentioned in previous posts, it's why I consider them better, period.
«1345
Sign In or Register to comment.