Lag Tactics

Guile75Guile75 Joined: Posts: 106
What shenanigans/tactics are only viable online?

Ryan Hart (name drop) has advised me that block stun is exaggerated online, to the extent that he couldnt adapt to it when we played.

Comments

  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    What shenanigans/tactics are only viable online?

    The 'lag pedal' technique? In ST/HDR most stuff comes out at 'faster than reaction' speed anyway. You'll want to abuse stuff that's relatively slow but normally decent like the command Fireballs, Ryu's overhead, long range fierce Sumo Torpedo or Fei's roundhouse dash kick and stuff that requires tight timing to deal with like tick traps.

    Conversely, you should be aware that many of those tactics are going to be less viable off-line.
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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    You should ask Willdestroya. He loves challenging people from Europe and Latin America, picking Chun or Claw and talking shit if he manages to win! :razz:

    Shit, dude, I really do not feel the same way as Ryan, but it does change a lot of things. Many, to be fair. Dictator's scissor kicks often look like CE due to having to reversal before, when it looks like you are still in blockstun. But it would look the same if you got hit and the move did not knock down in this version. The point is lag screws things up, like it or not. I will be the first one to say GGPO and online HDR are a blessing in the sense it is better than relying on an arcade that may not have ST or not even exist nearby, but it messes things up, definitely.

    Edit: Cross-up aerial attack into low attacks are hard to block online. Dee Jay's cross-up into cr.jab, cr.short xx MGU or into cr.jab, throw pretty much forces him not to tech whenever you try the throw, or they risk eating the last part of the combo.

    Rufus nailed it, basically. The more reaction the enemy needs, the worse it is for him online.
  • I$AACI$AAC did it hurt, baybee? Joined: Posts: 1,180
    Everything online happens "faster" offline so it's harder to react to certain things and makes certain matchups harder than they need to be.

    For instance, dic vs gief is one of those match that are pretty much even offline but it's in gief favor online. In this matchup it's all about reacting to what gief does and answer accordingly but you're reactions have to be on point. However online it can be to the point where the strat goes out the window and you are at the mercy of gief players. And don't get me started on Honda!
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  • Guile75Guile75 Joined: Posts: 106
    Thats some scary stuff. I already use prediction as my main tool, if offline is faster, damn...
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    ^^No offline is slower. Or less "jarring". You'd be even better with your reactions offline.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,625
    You should ask Willdestroya. He loves challenging people from Europe and Latin America, picking Chun or Claw and talking shit if he manages to win! :razz:

    He talks even more shit when he loses first to 10 matches to said Europeans.

    IE me.
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  • Zero1_Zero1_ Combo fraud Joined: Posts: 642
    What shenanigans/tactics are only viable online?

    Ryan Hart (name drop) has advised me that block stun is exaggerated online, to the extent that he couldnt adapt to it when we played.

    Practically everything works better online than it does offline. Offline my tick throws were being counter thrown or reversalled. Knee bash walk unders usually resulted in a wakeup throw beating my attack.

    Anyway, it's probably best we forget about this. Last thing we want is laggy people coming into lobbies and abusing the shit out of stuff. That will only convince the last remaining few players to leave and play SFIV.
  • EtherGKEtherGK What a Job this izzz Joined: Posts: 60
    Okay I know it's normal for the game to slow down when you get hit with a fireball, but does that slow down naturally happen any other time?
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    Fireball lag only happens during fireball lag :P.

    Also ggs ether think we played earlier.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Okay I know it's normal for the game to slow down when you get hit with a fireball, but does that slow down naturally happen any other time?

    Not in HD Remix. In other versions of the game..
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Okay I know it's normal for the game to slow down when you get hit with a fireball, but does that slow down naturally happen any other time?
    Here are basically the times the speed of things might not be what you'd expect:

    - Hitstop. Everytime a thing hits another thing, the two entities involved initially pause for a handful of frames, for that extra powerful feeling. "A thing" here is either a character or a projectile.

    - Super flash. Whenever you input a super, there's a brief (~20 frames) pause of everything on screen.

    - Heavy network lag. Under "normal" connections, the game won't actually slow down to deal with network lag, it'll just use rollbacks. But when network lag is especially heavy, the game will slow down temporarily to allow both sides to catch up.
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Speaking of fireball lag, does anyone know exactly how it works? I've had really weird things happen during it like getting roundhouse Lightning Legs after only pressing roundhouse once (though I did hit a bunch of other buttons before hand) and canceling Chun's far st. fierce into a Kikkoken, which you normally can't do. That's not even getting into the dropped inputs that I'm still trying to figure out the exact pattern to.
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  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    It seems very hard to beat a laggy ken that repeatedly jab dps.
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  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    It seems very hard to beat a laggy ken that repeatedly jab dps.

    O.Ken would make you cry....
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Speaking of fireball lag, does anyone know exactly how it works? I've had really weird things happen during it like getting roundhouse Lightning Legs after only pressing roundhouse once (though I did hit a bunch of other buttons before hand) and canceling Chun's far st. fierce into a Kikkoken, which you normally can't do. That's not even getting into the dropped inputs that I'm still trying to figure out the exact pattern to.

    There was a discussion about it in the Remix Frame Data thread.
  • ExposedDExposedD Persona 5 Joined: Posts: 6,261
    I know i have alot of trouble with laggy gief's.
    sweep/spd/reversal-lariat from out of nowhere..
    Persona 5
  • KacomKacom Joined: Posts: 268
    If you play anything like that Impact0009 dude. You abuse lag and use lag tactics. That's the truth.

    There's others on XBL that abuse lag but this guy's tactics ALWAYS put a smile on my face.
  • ultracomboultracombo Weakest Loser Joined: Posts: 741
    Ken's jab dp is pretty easy to punish, though I realize that not all other characters have the privilege of having an awesome normal like Sagat's standing fierce.

    A few lag issues I have:

    - Punishing ryu's lk tatsu
    - walking up and blocking fireball on reaction (can screw cammy over)
    - Balrog in general
    - getting away with tiger knee is too easy. It's like a dash
    - difficult time blocking ambiguous attacks and crossups
    - reversals can be much harder to perform

    I've also heard Dhalsim complaints, that his limbs are too fast, but I don't really think he benefits from lag so much.
    "If ultracombo misses a low roundhouse, he is likely to continue doing it." - TheMuffinMan
  • evoanonevoanon FP Black Inside Joined: Posts: 431
    Same with laggy bisons, lol :D.

    I watched a video of us playing today and I missed 9/10 tick throw attempts. You just jumped out of them like nothing. And my timing is immaculate :(.

    Plus I couldn't react to a lot of your moves as they skipped tons of frames :/.
  • evoanonevoanon FP Black Inside Joined: Posts: 431
    I always hear "zangief is better online because of the lag." but I'm a lot more accurate offline than online with tick throws :/.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    I think everyone is better offline. except me. my internet has been so bad for so long that I got used to the lag timing. when i play offline my spds whiff. I first noticed when I was playing with moocus and synco and none of my ticks connected. I was like "holly shit, i'm an online warrior!" I suck.
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    Ah shit..    
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  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    hey look, it's dngr s whiffercut!

    and guile75, gotta chill out on making new threads for everything that pops into your mind. you should use the general discussion thread so the board doesn't get cluttered.

    reguarding lag though, just don't play anyone under 70-80 ping. any higher than that is absolutely pointless. if you want to be able to play pings higher than that with not much lag interference (usually around the 120-130 mark) then go to ggpo, because remix netcode can't handle it.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    O.Ken would make you cry....

    I absolutely HATE playing against o kens on GGPO. They just Jab shoryu all day...

    most of them don't know what they're doing, so my slow fireball will usually hit them, but if they have an iota... DAMN they abuse jab Dps like there's no tomorrow.

    Offline i'll just sweep them as they land (recover), or throw them. Online... Nope. I'll get hit by another jab shoryu,

    I love it when they mess up the code and try that shit with n.ken.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
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  • ExposedDExposedD Persona 5 Joined: Posts: 6,261
    Same with laggy bisons, lol :D.

    I watched a video of us playing today and I missed 9/10 tick throw attempts. You just jumped out of them like nothing. And my timing is immaculate :(.

    Plus I couldn't react to a lot of your moves as they skipped tons of frames :/.


    wellllll ... lol .. was not my intention to offend you or anything buddy. i know your gief is excellent.
    but i think you should trust me when i say that a high-ping gief ain't easy to play against.
    Persona 5
  • CWheezyCWheezy Joined: Posts: 889
    I feel like bison is the worst to play in lag
  • evoanonevoanon FP Black Inside Joined: Posts: 431
    wellllll ... lol .. was not my intention to offend you or anything buddy. i know your gief is excellent.
    but i think you should trust me when i say that a high-ping gief ain't easy to play against.

    Nah no offense haha. It's just that I looked at that video today before I read this topic and it was pure coincidence :).
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    I've also heard Dhalsim complaints, that his limbs are too fast, but I don't really think he benefits from lag so much.

    Almost nothing works to Dhalsim's favor in lag. Fast limbs? LMAO! About the only notable thing I can think of that might work better for him in lag are drill shenanigans. On the flip side, the lag makes it harder for him to counter almost everyone else's everything.
  • Guile75Guile75 Joined: Posts: 106
    hey look, it's dngr s whiffercut!

    and guile75, gotta chill out on making new threads for everything that pops into your mind. you should use the general discussion thread so the board doesn't get cluttered.

    reguarding lag though, just don't play anyone under 70-80 ping. any higher than that is absolutely pointless. if you want to be able to play pings higher than that with not much lag interference (usually around the 120-130 mark) then go to ggpo, because remix netcode can't handle it.

    you put that in a very reasonable way, thanks.
    The hdr forums are a bit sparse, i love hdr, i want to support it in any way i can, if my posts are a bit too babyzone i'll give it a rest though. If others think i should stop posting i will.
  • KacomKacom Joined: Posts: 268
    Almost nothing works to Dhalsim's favor in lag. Fast limbs? LMAO! About the only notable thing I can think of that might work better for him in lag are drill shenanigans. On the flip side, the lag makes it harder for him to counter almost everyone else's everything.

    His throws are pretty able for abuse, but it isn't a big deal compared to other characters and their lag abusing abilities.
  • IrrepressibleGuileIrrepressibleGuile The Power Cosmic Joined: Posts: 726
    Practically everything works better online than it does offline. Offline my tick throws were being counter thrown or reversalled. Knee bash walk unders usually resulted in a wakeup throw beating my attack.

    Anyway, it's probably best we forget about this. Last thing we want is laggy people coming into lobbies and abusing the shit out of stuff. That will only convince the last remaining few players to leave and play SFIV.

    so what's your excuse when a match is lag free? You still lose.
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  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    you put that in a very reasonable way, thanks.
    The hdr forums are a bit sparse, i love hdr, i want to support it in any way i can, if my posts are a bit too babyzone i'll give it a rest though. If others think i should stop posting i will.

    That's not what he meant. he didn't say you should not post, but you should not create NEW threads for general stuff (I made that mistake too when I first joined).

    There are character specific threads if you want to discuss stuff related to a character

    And then there is a HDR general discussion thread and a marsgodtier thread where you can discuss anything that is not related to mars.

    Yeah boxer's dash punch and whiff dash into grab are hard to react. So is ryu lk tatsu into throw. In general throw setup is harder to counter online.

    I once have a friend using o ken and just keep repeat jab shoryu, and my job is to sweep him, it's hard....
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  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    sorry i just meant it in a "here's some free advice" kind of way. i'm in no way a mod or anything
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    Hardware, software, and network performance are improving exponentially over time.

    Relatively soon, lag will not be an issue and this will profoundly affect the fighting game scene. The online experience will come to match today's offline experience, and in fact will probably be preferred for a number of reasons.

    There is a lot of idolatry today for the "one true" experience of offline play, and it's amazing to me that the strongest adherents of the cult of offline are seemingly so blind to the truck that is about to hit them square between the eyes.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
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  • TheloThelo Holdin' down-back Joined: Posts: 1,144 mod
    Hardware, software, and network performance are improving exponentially over time.

    Relatively soon, lag will not be an issue and this will profoundly affect the fighting game scene.
    This is kind of off-topic, but okay, I'll take this bait. Let's take the four claims here.

    - Hardware performance is improving exponentially over time.

    This is probably the truest of the four, see Moore's law and all. But it's still pretty questionable. Think back to the 1990s: you could buy a state-of-the-art computer, and it would be completely obsoleted within three or four years. You'd buy a 150 MHz Pentium Pro in Nov 1995 and replace it with a 450 MHz Pentium II in Jan 1998, because your 1995 computer simply couldn't run anything current anymore. But chances are pretty good that if you bought a computer in 2005, it still runs basically everything you want in 2010, and if you look at the CPU clock speed it should be pretty close to 2.5 GHz, both in 2005 and in 2010.

    Why? A big reason for this is that our hardware is already getting really close to the limits of physics. We're already making things so small that quantum effects happen between parallel circuit lines and screw things up. We have extreme trouble making clock speeds faster than about 3.5 GHz, because of fundamental limits of thermodynamics. And the absolute transistor size limit of a single molecule's size is already pretty damn close.

    Sure, hardware performance has improved in the past 5 years, but it's nothing compared to the breakneck speed of the 1990s - if anything, the hardware market is getting way more stable over time, it's not exponentially accelerating. And I find it reasonable to believe that the next ten years will also be ten years of greater stability, not exponential growth.


    - Software performance is improving exponentially over time

    Yeah okay, I have no clue where you got that idea. Software is hella hard, and I'd be surprised if we improved more than linearly over the past 20 years. We coded console games in C++ 15 years ago and we still do today, and while yes the overall tools and processes have improved, it's been closer to logarithmic growth than exponential growth, heh.


    - Network performance is improving exponentially over time

    Really? Because it sure seems like my home bandwidth has been pretty damn stable for the past 10 years.

    Actually, there's two components of performance here: bandwidth and latency. I have no real problem believing that bandwidth will improve in the near future, you can just install fat optic cables everywhere, and bam you're done. Though that process isn't anywhere near exponential growth, heh.

    But the bigger concern for us is latency - that sure isn't going to improve exponentially. And the reason is that it's goddamn hard to beat the speed of light. The Earth's circumference is about 40000 km, and light travels at about 300000 km/s. If you want to send information to the other side of the globe and back, even if you had the theoretical perfect system where you instantly send and recieve pure photons in a perfect curve hugging the planet, without any relay systems or intermediaries at all, all within a perfect vacuum, it would still take 133 milliseconds.

    And in the real world, we're dealing with electrical pulses transmitted over copper wires, that traverse a whole bunch of routers, relay stations, converters, etc. I do have faith in the power of engineering, but we're just not gonna beat the speed of light anytime soon.

    So that brings me to the last claim:
    - Relatively soon, lag will not be an issue and this will profoundly affect the fighting game scene.

    Because of what I've just explained, especially w.r.t. latency, I think it's safe to claim that lag will continue to be a very real issue. Sure, clever engineering tricks might reduce ping times by, like, 20% in the next 10 years maybe? I just pulled that number out of my ass, but considering the absolute limit of the speed of light (and the softer limits of hardware, software, and network technology), I'd be hella surprised if we even got there. My point is, even that hard-earned 20% isn't going to change much. We're simply not looking at a future where "lag will not be an issue".
    Keeping your cool is always the winning move.
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    The speed of light is a limiting factor and I should have mentioned that in my post. Software is hard, that is also true. But it seems like even though you made a rather long post, your criticism is largely built around my use of the word 'exponential'. Fair enough, it was a generalization.

    Let me restate: the presence of lag will diminish to the degree that we perceive very little or even no difference in offline and online play. Lag only has to reduce to the level where we cannot perceive it.

    The past is littered with people and companies who could not understand (or would not admit) the dramatic changes that the future holds, even the near future.

    To be honest, your position reminds me a little of the disk manufacturers described here:

    The Innovator's Dilemma
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    10 years ago, the latency between Brazil and US East cost was around 90 ms in average. It would often return 80 ms, with spikes being around 140 ms. Now the latency is around 180 ms, with spikes around 5 seconds. It only got worse, supposedly because they are using different standards right now, so the protocols need to be changed in between the end points.

    It is not possible to make lag such as 60 ms unnoticeable in SF2 or FPS. It is just not possible, in fact. And latency smaller than that around the globe will never happen, exactly due to the light speed limit.
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    Your experience with lag in between Brazil and the US is not generalizable.

    Also, I'd say that the use case where the two players are on the opposite sides of the planet is not the normal use case.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • je110je110 Dantastic Joined: Posts: 385

    Let me restate: the presence of lag will diminish to the degree that we perceive very little or even no difference in offline and online play.

    I doubt this will happen in the near future for fighting games. If it does, that's fantastic. I don't think anybody would be disappointed by that, so I'm honestly not sure where the conflict is, but generally I just don't see this happening for a very long time, aside from playing against people within a very close range.
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree :-)
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree :-)

    The distance from Sydney Australia, to New York, New York, USA is about 16,000 km, the speed of light is 300,000 km/s so there's no way to get better than 1/20 of a second (3 frames) unless you tunnel through the earth.

    New York to Los Angeles is about 4,000 km - or about 1/80 of a light second (3/4 of a frame). I'd be rather surprised if people could get less than a frame of lag over that distance. I doubt it's possible with any consumer grade service.
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  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    I already said that I think the use case where the two players are on the opposite sides of the planet is not the normal use case.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    It is possible that some sort of wireless technology could be developed that could penetrate the planet, so the maximum distance traveled would be the diameter instead of half the circumference. 12,742km/300,000km/s = ~0.042 seconds, so that is a slight improvement.

    Also, while input lag netcode is generally bad, the main reason is that it isn't consistent with offline input lag. If you get the base input lag down as low as possible, then add artificial input lag to the offline, you could use that difference to smooth out online play without any differences. PSN HDR apparently has 7 frames of input lag offline and doesn't feel too bad. I don't know about console, but on PC, it should be possible to get down to 1 frame of input lag, so you can add 6 frames to keep it the same. 6 frames is 1/10th of a second, so you could get a 100 millisecond ping to be exactly the same as offline. Rollback netcode would exist for anything above that, and generally rollbacks less than 100 milliseconds aren't too bad.

    But, yeah, even with those two things, it won't be enough to make worldwide netcode the same as offline. Maybe we'll get some quantum entanglement network infrastructure eventually?
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  • moocusmoocus internets? Joined: Posts: 869
    ... then add artificial input lag to the offline, you could use that difference to smooth out online play without any differences.

    no thanks
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    - Software performance is improving exponentially over time

    Yeah okay, I have no clue where you got that idea. Software is hella hard, and I'd be surprised if we improved more than linearly over the past 20 years.

    I didn't have any plan to revisit this thread, but just saw this:

    Progress in Algorithms Beats Moore?s Law Algorithmic Game-Theory/Economics
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • ElkiporElkipor Joined: Posts: 43
    Let's wait 10 years to find out who is right :wgrin:
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    Let's wait 10 years to find out who is right :wgrin:

    LOL, yeah, that's pretty much it.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    lol
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
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