Things you just don't understand about ST

WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
Hello there,
I'm posting this to share thoughts about stuff you don't understand about ST.
Want some examples ? Here is one of mine, and I want you to answer if you know clearly the solution.
1/ I'm ryu. I'm on the left side. I got crossed up by the opponent. I reverse dp.Thing is, my reversal with the same input (right,down, down/right) came once, in the correct side (means like if i dp'd from the right side), and the other time, my dp came out as a reverse (with still the opponent getting in the other side) but the wrong way (means like a classic left side dp). What is the thing that is determinant for ryu to dp the right way, even though your input is like a left side dp ? Hope that's clear enough.
Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
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Comments

  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    I think this also applies to the following scenarios.

    ken knee bash opponent and then walk under to the other side and do a cr. RH

    if you do a neutral cr. RH, RH can sometime hit the correct direction or the wrong direction.

    gief cross up splash, then immediately cross up splash again the other direction (or blanka jump lk)
    sometime gief will jump backward but facing the wrong direction
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    It's called a backwards attack and happens when you are crossed up and the game determines that you are on the wrong side that you want to be on. It can happen with any type of attack, normals that are standing or crouching, special moves, and even jumping attacks. Usually you see it happen after a jumping cross up. The move you want comes out as an opposite animation because the game registers you as not completely crossing over your opponent and switching sides. Sometimes this can be good, like doing repeated splashes as Papasi stated above. However sometimes a move coming out backwards can cost you the match.

    YuuVega doing instant overhead[/URL] magic in the corner. Komoda doing a backwards jumping short kick after a cross up. Jason Nelson gets himself an [URL=" attack after a cross up that leaves him open. I don't usually keep track of backwards moves so this is all I could think of off of the top of my head. As your can see the first two examples help the person, the last one was not intentional at all.

    There's actually a perfect example of Yaya doing cross up tiger knee tricks to get Aniken's dragon punch to come out the wrong way but I don't know which video it is. Anyone know that one?

    moves[/URL] are all over combo videos as well and you can see them in [URL=" as well. NKI Volume X has quite a bit, Blanka doing hop tricks to force Ryu's dragon punch to come out on the wrong side, Zangief blocking Fei's flame kick behind the back, Ken jumping under Dictator and getting a backwards vertical attack.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    vf4, I guess the question is, can you purposely make a backwards attack? If yes, what is the trick to make it happen consistently?

    If you cannot do it on purpose, then those shenanigans are just accidents I guess?
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    The 'backwards DP' in the original post is probably because the opponent switched sides after the input was completed, but before the button was pushed (or released).

    The 'side' that a player is on is tied to the hiboxes in some weird ways, so it is possible to get backwards normal attacks after hitting a crouching opponent with a jumping heavy attack. This is desirable in combos because it will cause pushback into the character. If said reverse normal is canceled, it can produce a reverse special. Maj wrote a nice post on this (sonic hurricane dot com ? SF2 Series Backwards Attack Conditions)
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    vf4, I guess the question is, can you purposely make a backwards attack? If yes, what is the trick to make it happen consistently?

    If you cannot do it on purpose, then those shenanigans are just accidents I guess?
    Yes you can do it on purpose consistently. You can do Blanka's hop tricks or Sagat's tiger knee crossover tricks to force dragon punches to come out the wrong way. Good Blanka players will always use his hop tricks to force characters animations to come out the wrong way and then go for easy punishes. I think Blanka's hop can't be thrown either, so you can even bait a reversal throw to animate the wrong way and then punish it.

    Here's two more cross up tricks. First one is the crazy legs trick where you pass through your opponent. Second one is Yaya doing tiger knee tricks to get his opponent's dragon punch to come out facing away from him.




    Edit: look at the start of the second round in the first match. Mattsun does a hurricane and gets over Makky7 causing his crouching fierce to come out the wrong away.
    http://sonichurricane.com/?p=876#more-876

    1) must use a medium or hard jump attack because light attacks don?t trigger full hit reel
    2) opponent must be crouching because jump attacks cause more pushback against crouching characters, plus they lean back further
    3) jump attack must hit early enough during jump arc to give opponent enough time to lean back fully before landing
    4) 1P characters must cross up by jumping from left to right and 2P characters must cross up jumping from right to left
    Numbers one, two, and three are wrong. You can get opposite attacks off of light attacks when they cross up. You can get opposite attacks is the opponent is standing or crouching, on both block and hit. Jump attack timing can vary widely.

    Number four I have no idea if that is true or not. My guess is that it is not side specific though.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Wolmar, if you are getting crossed up, you can input a crossup Shoryuken command (:r::df::d::db: :p:) if you are facing right (1P side). This will not prevent backwards Shoryukens from coming out, but it will reduce the amount of backwards SRKs you get. This command will work for Ryu, Ken, Hawk, Sagat and Cammy (Kick for her). For Fei Long, you have to do it backwards (b,db,d,df K).
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    Wolmar, if you are getting crossed up, you can input a crossup Shoryuken command (:r::df::d::db: :p:) if you are facing right (1P side). This will not prevent backwards Shoryukens from coming out, but it will reduce the amount of backwards SRKs you get. This command will work for Ryu, Ken, Hawk, Sagat and Cammy (Kick for her). For Fei Long, you have to do it backwards (b,db,d,df K).


    Speaking of.........
    For his super ( fei ) you can qcf,qcb but those inputs ( the ones you mentioned and the ones I mentioned ) are cross up specific.

    ( I sure did use a lot of () in this post )
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Thanks guys, and thanx vf4 for nice vids that show clearly how you can add to your strats these "side" tricks. And blitzfu, your post is very interesting to ; but i was asking my question because i once got a magic backward dp while actually entering classic 1p side dp inputs. Now I liked an answer pretty much, 'cause I think it can bring some light :
    "The 'backwards DP' in the original post is probably because the opponent switched sides after the input was completed, but before the button was pushed (or released)." Two ideas :
    1/ So, all in all, does it mean the following thing (brain smoke): to get my dp in the opposite way I've entered the inputs, I have to start pushing forward (while still on the ground) and finish the motion normally, the cpu recording my first input in the side the opponent was just before crossing up. And in that way again, it would mean the (lets call it like that) magic dp wont come out if i start to enter the input when I'm crossed up. That seems to make sense. Still I don't know if it is the actual case. Please continue to enlighten me on this point.
    2/ Much more nerd and complicated : in addition to 1/, can someone tell me what is the maximum amount of time the cpu allows you between first, second (and why not) third input of DP ? and what amount of time (frames ?) you have between the motion being performed, and the button to be pushed ? Asking that cause if my suggestion in 1/ is true, knowing that would help.
    Thanx for answers, I really hope I'm clear because it's kinda complicated lol.
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Numbers one, two, and three are wrong. You can get opposite attacks off of light attacks when they cross up. You can get opposite attacks is the opponent is standing or crouching, on both block and hit. Jump attack timing can vary widely.

    Number four I have no idea if that is true or not. My guess is that it is not side specific though.

    This is specifically for combos, and he does say that those are 'mostly', not always. In a non-combo setting, another reverse attack situation is cross-unders after air resets.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    "The 'backwards DP' in the original post is probably because the opponent switched sides after the input was completed, but before the button was pushed (or released)." Two ideas :
    1/ So, all in all, does it mean the following thing (brain smoke): to get my dp in the opposite way I've entered the inputs, I have to start pushing forward (while still on the ground) and finish the motion normally, the cpu recording my first input in the side the opponent was just before crossing up. And in that way again, it would mean the (lets call it like that) magic dp wont come out if i start to enter the input when I'm crossed up. That seems to make sense. Still I don't know if it is the actual case. Please continue to enlighten me on this point.
    The command is relative to the opponent. Left, down, down-right will produce an uppercut if the opponent switches sides while you're hitting down.
    2/ Much more nerd and complicated : in addition to 1/, can someone tell me what is the maximum amount of time the cpu allows you between first, second (and why not) third input of DP ? and what amount of time (frames ?) you have between the motion being performed, and the button to be pushed ? Asking that cause if my suggestion in 1/ is true, knowing that would help.
    I tried to test this in HDR, and didn't get that far. Roughly speaking, it seems that you get something like 8 frames per input, starting with the initial 'towards', but you don't get the initial 8 frames if you start with a held direction, and there's some maximum time - something like 20 frames - between inputs -- I think it's less for the button push. So if you start from neutral, you can take up to 24 frames (a staggeringly long time, really, about 1/3 second accounting for turbo) to do the DP motion and still have it come out. If you start with a held towards, you only have 16 frames to complete the motion. I suspect that the button push follows a similar schedule in ST, but I haven't tested.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    In the wiki and forum discussion people keep saying that the game won't let you tech throw to reduce damage if the throw is going to kill you.

    But again and again I see counter examples of this. People can still tech throw when they have like 12-14 pixels of life (and sometime the damage is only like 4-6 pixels).

    Is it because of the random number engine acting up and the guy doing the throw just being unlucky?
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    In the wiki and forum discussion people keep saying that the game won't let you tech throw to reduce damage if the throw is going to kill you.
    You CAN tech a normal throw but you CANNOT soften the throw if the full non-softened damage of the throw will kill you. A tech and a soften are actually two different things as well. You can tech a throw that will kill you and you will see the throw tech animation (aerial recovery)[/URL] but your character will still eat the full damage of the throw (damage will not soften). Here's Dictator throwing O.Honda [URL=" for comparison. If you don't tech a throw that will kill you, then you eat the ground recovery version of the throw (non-tech version) and the damage isn't softened as well.
    But again and again I see counter examples of this. People can still tech throw when they have like 12-14 pixels of life (and sometime the damage is only like 4-6 pixels).
    Can't happen. The game calculates that you are dead you can soften the damage of the throw[/URL]. Even though you go immediately into the aerial recovery animation that a tech throw produces you still eat the [URL=" .
    Is it because of the random number engine acting up and the guy doing the throw just being unlucky?
    Basically yes. If someone is near death and they manage to tech a throw and soften the damage they just lucked out.
    - - - - -

    While I'm here I'll throw this out as well as I haven't seen many people talk about it. Chun's normal throws are bugged in two ways. The first is that you can throw your opponent and are standing. Normally you have 13 frames of throw invulnerability when you wake up. However Chun's normal throws often ignore that rule and allow the player to immediately threaten a throw on wake up. I've seen Claw's off the wall throw ignore that rule as well. Second is that Chun's normal throws do enormous damage, sometimes even on the level of command throws, which I would estimate is not intentional and is likely a bug.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • julius blazejulius blaze is really airthrow Joined: Posts: 596
    I still don't understand how NKI did Cammy's super in the air.
    Everyone who likes real arcade ST, go join the dontblowthis.com forums!
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    ^word.

    someon explain. i wanna do blanka air super lol.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • intangiBLZintangiBLZ can't touch this Joined: Posts: 100
    I have a deep knowledge of ST and I basically understand all of the mid/high level tactics. But there's one thing that completely baffles me-the dizzy system in ST/HDR. What the fucking hell is up with that system? Please someone explain this to me.

    I suspect my sparing partner understands the system. In our matches, I routinely get dizzied by him at weird moments of the match-like the first attack of matches. He will not explain to me what the fuck is going on though. If anyone wants to share any insight about how it works, I'm all ears though.
    ..
  • TetsuosanTetsuosan Watahh Joined: Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I have a deep knowledge of ST and I basically understand all of the mid/high level tactics. But there's one thing that completely baffles me-the dizzy system in ST/HDR. What the fucking hell is up with that system? Please someone explain this to me.

    I suspect my sparing partner understands the system. In our matches, I routinely get dizzied by him at weird moments of the match-like the first attack of matches. He will not explain to me what the fuck is going on though. If anyone wants to share any insight about how it works, I'm all ears though.

    One word randomness. The engine has a random factor that no one can explain.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Maj and the ST Wiki have tried to explain it:

    [QUOTE=Sonic Hurricane]

    Dizzy System
    Nearly all aspects of the dizzy process are randomized, including severity of punishment required to inflict dizziness, choice of revolving icons, and preset stun duration before mashing. In fact in CPS1 titles, controller inputs continue to influence symbol selection even after a character is knocked dizzy, since icons don't appear in WW, CE, and HF until the stunned fighter stands back up. Those circling symbols do have an established hierarchy of endurance, with recovery from stars being the easiest, followed by birds, angels, and finally grim reapers. To parallel the damage reduction trend, overall offensive dizzy potential has been toned down progressively from WW to ST.
    [/QUOTE]



    [QUOTE=ST Wiki]
    Randomness
    "dizzy meter" length. i.e. "How long it takes you to become dizzy"
    The amount of dizzy damage done by a move
    [/QUOTE]


    I also remember something about an instant dizzy by an attack or combo within the 1st 10 seconds of a round that wouldn't normally dizzy outside of the 1st 10 seconds, but I can't find an article or post that relates to that right now.
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    One thing that puzzles me....is how the fuck do you get blanka's super to not roll back after you block it in a corner.

    Seems to be random.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    it's controllable.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    it's controllable.

    Thanks for being so in-depth. At first, I didn't think I'd be able to process all that information in one sitting.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    I have a deep knowledge of ST and I basically understand all of the mid/high level tactics. But there's one thing that completely baffles me-the dizzy system in ST/HDR. What the fucking hell is up with that system? Please someone explain this to me.

    I suspect my sparing partner understands the system. In our matches, I routinely get dizzied by him at weird moments of the match-like the first attack of matches. He will not explain to me what the fuck is going on though. If anyone wants to share any insight about how it works, I'm all ears though.

    SeikouSeikouShita revealed to me a useful fact. Strong/Forward, your middle strength attacks, they inflict high amounts of stun. Looking at most touch of death combos, they do involve the use of those attacks. He told me to try neutral jump MP, st MP, sonic boom with Guile to gauge just how it works, usually the next hit will dizzy after that combo. All I know is that now I try to utilize medium strength attacks a lot more where it's feasible/convenient. That's not going to break open the whole stun system, but it does explain many characters and their frequency to stun.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    Thanks for being so in-depth. At first, I didn't think I'd be able to process all that information in one sitting.
    yea i figured you might prefer an answer from someone of your own superior race, me just being a lowly sand ****** and all.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    yea i figured you might prefer an answer from someone of your own superior race, me just being a lowly sand ****** and all.

    You're right, next time don't reply.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • julius blazejulius blaze is really airthrow Joined: Posts: 596
    Dizzy system works randomly, but has consistancy as well, which is why JP Gied headbutt almost always dizzies:

    -every single unblocked attack has an x% chance to dizzy regardless of how much dizzy dmg you have taken, i believe this number is 1/256 but I don't remember whwre i got this number. This ould be the TRULY random dizzies.

    -at the begining of the round, dizzies are much more likely, ten seconds sounds about right before dizzy goes to normal.

    -the trick to mashing out of dizzies is two fold, most people only know half of it. Mash the buttons while wiggling the stick from d/b to up forward. Also, the best seattle ST player at mashing out of dizzy (ask anyone, XTG was insane at it), found it is way easier to maah out by starting as SOON as you stand up. Most people start mashing as soon as they see stars/bells/reapwrs while falling.

    Another thing I can't figure out, how come boxer's super ends sooner sometimes? It has randomly saved me from being punished sometimes, but i don't get it. Also, do TAPs charge based on the timer, or real world seconds? If timer seconds, certain stages boxer would have a bigger advantage because the timer is faster on them.

    What causes those 'flicker' graphical glitches? Theyre in the DC vers as well as cps2. Also why is that square chunk missing out of Ryu's stage? Is the tile not addressed right and its hidden in the rom somewhere? If you haven't noticed it by now, you will never NOT see it from now on. :rofl:
    Everyone who likes real arcade ST, go join the dontblowthis.com forums!
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    Second is that Chun's normal throws do enormous damage, sometimes even on the level of command throws, which I would estimate is not intentional and is likely a bug.

    This. I can't count the number of times I've seen Chun end the round with a ridiculous throw that does a ton of damage. It's like, cr.shortx3 plus a full fierce DP's worth of damage from Ryu, and you die despite tech'ing of course. I often wonder what the game would be like if "throw killing" was removed. Obviously characters with a throw (as opposed to a hold/grab) would suffer.
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

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  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Every single unblocked attack has an x% chance to dizzy regardless of how much dizzy dmg you have taken, i believe this number is 1/256 but I don't remember whwre i got this number. This ould be the TRULY random dizzies.
    No. Every move inflicts a random dizzy value that falls into a specific window for that move (just like how damage is calculated). So Zangief's headbutt randomly does between 90-something percent and over 100 percent dizzy when you use it. Which is why sometimes it dizzies with one hit, and sometimes it does not cause a dizzy. The only attacks in the game that can cause a dizzy in one hit are Zangief's vertical headbutts.

    No matter how many times you try, a jab shouldn't one hit dizzy anyone just like a jab doesn't have a random chance to one hit kill anyone either. There is no 512 Dizzy in ST like the World Warrior 512 Special. There would be countless video examples of one hit dizzies with various moves if that was the case.

    As far as normals go, jab and short inflict the least amount of dizzy, then strong and forward, and then fierce and roundhouse. Some throws, special attacks, and command throws follow the same pattern with causing stun. Meaning the fierce/roundhouse versions do the most stun. However some specials and throws do the same dizzy regardless of strength. Supers inflict dizzy as well. Holds inflict so little stun that it is basically impossible to cause a dizzy with them. If a normal throw would cause a dizzy then you cannot tech or soften the throw as well.
    At the begining of the round, dizzies are much more likely, ten seconds sounds about right before dizzy goes to normal.
    I don't think so. Zangief's headbutt seems to be the same and so do Dictator's big ToD combos. It doesn't seem like the timer matters at all.
    Another thing I can't figure out, how come boxer's super ends sooner sometimes? It has randomly saved me from being punished sometimes, but i don't get it.
    If Boxer's Super whiffs then it cancels the next rush punch, I believe unless you're holding down a button in which case you'll get a massive whiff animation of multiple rush punches. The high rush version of Boxer's Super whiffs without canceling as you have to hold a kick button to activate it. There are more rules to this but I don't know all of them.
    Also, do TAPs charge based on the timer, or real world seconds? If timer seconds, certain stages boxer would have a bigger advantage because the timer is faster on them.
    It's calculated by the game's internal game clock so it's constant across all stages. This is also why combos and safe jumps are constant across all stages as well as starting, active, and recovery frames. Ken's fierce dragon punch always hits on the first frame on every stage.
    What causes those 'flicker' graphical glitches? Theyre in the DC vers as well as cps2.
    Can you elaborate?
    Also why is that square chunk missing out of Ryu's stage? Is the tile not addressed right and its hidden in the rom somewhere? If you haven't noticed it by now, you will never NOT see it from now on. :rofl:
    I thought it was mistake as well but if you look at the corner of the building it's actually drawn that way on purpose. It looks horrible but it's clearly not because of a missing art asset.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    there's definitely more dizzy potentional in your attacks at the start of the round. Plenty of times I've dizzied opponents with a small series of attacks at the beginning of a round that have never dizzied in the middle or end of one.

    also, lol racism.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    One thing that puzzles me....is how the fuck do you get blanka's super to not roll back after you block it in a corner.

    Seems to be random.

    In ?h?? All?h

    And yes i do know how but that is reserved for true believers and shalt not be taught to infidels.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • julius blazejulius blaze is really airthrow Joined: Posts: 596
    VF4, I know every attack has a stun value of x amount with variance, i was talking about a chance dizzy attack on TOP of that, which would explain why TODs and Gief headbutt are consistent, yet people still get dizzied by silly stuff like jumping short.

    And also I will have to disagree about the start of the round...just experience tells me that it is easier to get dizzied, and I didnt make that up, i read it somewhere....

    About the graphic glitches, it seems like the backgrounds flicker sometimes, especially on Deejay's stage. Its like the background flickers or corrupts for a brief moment.

    And yes pleass keep racist bullshit out of a thread for the best fighter ever.
    Everyone who likes real arcade ST, go join the dontblowthis.com forums!
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    I didn't say anything, those morons brought it up, lol. I asked a legitimate question, already got my answer playing around in FBA-RR, I can consistently stop the hop back on blanka's super. They're just butt hurt over some nonsense on ggpo. Taking the internet way too seriously.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • dialupsuckydialupsucky FINAL SHOWDOWN Joined: Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    SeikouSeikouShita revealed to me a useful fact. Strong/Forward, your middle strength attacks, they inflict high amounts of stun. Looking at most touch of death combos, they do involve the use of those attacks. He told me to try neutral jump MP, st MP, sonic boom with Guile to gauge just how it works, usually the next hit will dizzy after that combo. All I know is that now I try to utilize medium strength attacks a lot more where it's feasible/convenient. That's not going to break open the whole stun system, but it does explain many characters and their frequency to stun.


    Yep.. mediums generally do the most stun in the game. It is 100% false that it goes littles to hards in terms of how much an attack dizzys. There is random moves that do not follow this pattern. But in general this is how dizzys work. And neutral jump attacks for every character not just geif also generally if not every single character are there highest dizzying attacks. Dizzys also arent quite as random as I think people belive. The thing is you have to remember if a character is knocked down and then they stand back up you have to basically take away around half of the points of the dizzy of the move that knocked them down. Other wise besides a bit of randomness its pretty possible to tell when something will dizzy. Again the problem is really just remembering to subtract the move that knocked down if it didnt dizzy.
  • intangiBLZintangiBLZ can't touch this Joined: Posts: 100
    Hey what's up dude? If you are who i think you are, I played you a couple of times when HDR was first released. Good times. Do you still play?

    Your theories interesting. It's definitely a different explanation then I would expect to hear. I'd love to hear more about your theory though. Have you discovered any more moves with unique dizzy properties. Also, I don't really understand what you said about "taking away half the stun points for an opponent standing up." For instance, do you mean a move, when performed as a meaty, inflicts approximately half the stun points it would on a standing opponent? If so, that's pretty cool, I never would have guessed it worked that way.

    I've got a different theory about how the system works. I'm far from figuring it out though. Does anyone remember the guard bar from the capcom vs snk series? I think the Super Turbo dizzy system has similar, but different properties. I still can't 100% explain how it works though.
    ..
  • dialupsuckydialupsucky FINAL SHOWDOWN Joined: Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Not really a theory man. Its pretty much 100% you can test it yourself. Again randomness is slightly a factor. But in general there is a rule to when you are going to dizzy and when you are not. I actually posted ryus dizzys rates not to long ago. Lemme copy and paste...


    From highest to lowest

    Jump normals dizzy


    -neutral jump hk, then hp
    -neutral jump mp
    -diagonal jump mp/mk
    -diagonal jump hp
    -diagonal jump hk
    -everything else.


    Ground normals
    -close stand hk
    -duck mp/mk, close stand mp/mk stand hp/hk/mp/(mk I forget.. it might be here),duck hk*
    -close stand hp, duck hp
    -everything else


    So basically if you are going for dizzy its almost always better to do medium jump ins to a medium canceable attack to special. The chance of dizzying is quite a bit higher. A lot of characters actually follow similar patterns. Besides a few here and there sorta things.. In general you can sorta think of it like diagonal jumping/close/far/and crouching mediums do more then there hard counter parts. And almost every character in the game can actually just dizzy with a neutral jump attack to a medium or 2.

    When I ment knocking down I ment like... Its the same reason think of why ryus red fireball seems to do less stun then his blue fireball. If a character is knocked downed down you gotta take away like half of the stun of that move about. So lets say the move does 3 points of stun. Well if it dizzys its all good. BUT, if the move is going to knock down and not dizzy then once the dude stands back up you gotta take away that point and a half in your brain.

    Also(this one im actaully not 100% on, as it could be the random factor coming into play here but..)moves tend to do less stun the more then are used in a row. Examples being say new ryus jump mp. If it hits twice, the following combo tends to have a less dizzying chance as if it only hit once. Same way if you were to say do nothing but one attack over and over trying to dizzy. But if you throw in another attack along the way. Much higher chance of dizzying. I assume this is why in ST unlike real old SF it is much harder to dizzy with rapid fire shorts etc. Beacuse in ST they added if you keep doing the same move over and over again less chance to dizzy thing. Where as if you were to do it in SF2 or some shit. Not that hard.


    Anyway nah, I havn't played much man. I started trying to sign on to play ST randomly towards the end of this(errr last)year. But carpal tunnel, bones growing out of hands all the usual health problems... And well my controller broke to the point of being unplayable ive basically stopped. ha... I do plan on buying a new controler sometime this year though.. just hard to force myself to, when I don't really play so its.. not very economical? to say? lol


    Maybe if im ever out that way though again and your with nick or something we can play though. Will see.
  • intangiBLZintangiBLZ can't touch this Joined: Posts: 100
    O.K., everything you just wrote makes perfect sense. Good luck with medical stuff too. We'll see about playing as well. If not, it's all good too.

    So back to business. I agree with most of your theory but not about everything. Hopefully my post will make sense here. Check this video out.


    and go to 2:37. Obviously a completely different game, but hopefully my post will make sense here. Notice how the opponents gaurd bar is flashing, but as the person is getting hit by the custom combo, his guard bar is not going back to full, like it would as if he were not being hit or hitting his opponent. On the other hand, the attackers "gaurd bar" is filling up to normal.

    OK, so in ST. I personally think that when you knock your opponent down, the "dizzy" bar remains at the same level throughout the fall and get up. Slightly different than the cvs2 example. My little "theory" doesn't explain how dizzies start at the beginning of the match though. You know what i'm saying? that's what i don't get
    ..
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Wouldn't an accurate way to determine attack dizziness be to debug memory before and after hits (I think MAME comes with a debugger nowadays)? After you find the address for handling dizziness and set a counter there, you could directly test how much dizziness each attack averages. I'd do some tests myself but I've been busy lately.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    theres a good amount of randomness to the dizzy system. one of the advantages of having really bad connect like mine is you see a lot of roll backs. so what happens when i hit someone, i see them dizzy, then it rolls back and when i hit them again with the same move, it doesn't dizzy. but everything mentioned above about the med strength doing more dizzy does make since. I'm going to spend some time studying this. does anyone know if in training mode the dizzy system works the same? sometimes i feel like in training mode the dummy never gets dizzy or takes a ridiculous amount of hits to dizzy.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
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  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    I did some messing around with MAME and I'm pretty sure address FF88AB is the dizzy counter for player 2 on World 940223. It gets incremented on every hit, counts down on every frame, and drops to zero on dizzy. It also will not increment when you hit someone that is dizzied or a short time after they recover, whether by mashing or being hit.

    EDIT:
    Doing some quick tests with Chun against Ken, close and far normals are 40 dizzy for light, 60 for medium, 80 for heavy. (I haven't tested crouching yet.) Kikkoken is 90 for all strengths. This makes me think that the dizzy point is what is random, rather than what the moves themselves do.

    Just tested a couple combos and I dizzied in one of them at 129, but another didn't dizzy at 139, but then did at 151. Also, Chun's diagonal jump fierce only does 60 dizzy, instead of 80 like the grounded ones.

    LLs: 100 (I've gotten some crazy high dizzy numbers on this, like 211, finally dizzying with a 286)
    cr. HK: 130
    Jump attacks light: 40, medium: 50, heavy: 60
    Neutral jump HK: 80

    So, from the above, my guess of how the dizzy system works is that each move has a set amount it adds to the counter, but also a random range of values for the counter where it will dizzy. When you hit with a move, it increments the counter, then randomly decides what value will be enough to dizzy.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • KawasakilizardKawasakilizard Joined: Posts: 66
    Dizzy system works randomly, but has consistancy as well, which is why JP Gied headbutt almost always dizzies:

    -every single unblocked attack has an x% chance to dizzy regardless of how much dizzy dmg you have taken, i believe this number is 1/256 but I don't remember whwre i got this number. This ould be the TRULY random dizzies.

    -at the begining of the round, dizzies are much more likely, ten seconds sounds about right before dizzy goes to normal.

    -the trick to mashing out of dizzies is two fold, most people only know half of it. Mash the buttons while wiggling the stick from d/b to up forward. Also, the best seattle ST player at mashing out of dizzy (ask anyone, XTG was insane at it), found it is way easier to maah out by starting as SOON as you stand up. Most people start mashing as soon as they see stars/bells/reapwrs while falling.

    Another thing I can't figure out, how come boxer's super ends sooner sometimes? It has randomly saved me from being punished sometimes, but i don't get it. Also, do TAPs charge based on the timer, or real world seconds? If timer seconds, certain stages boxer would have a bigger advantage because the timer is faster on them.

    What causes those 'flicker' graphical glitches? Theyre in the DC vers as well as cps2. Also why is that square chunk missing out of Ryu's stage? Is the tile not addressed right and its hidden in the rom somewhere? If you haven't noticed it by now, you will never NOT see it from now on. :rofl:


    Interesting about the dizzies. Never knew!
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    I did some messing around with MAME and I'm pretty sure address FF88AB is the dizzy counter for player 2 on World 940223.

    Nice Job, Cauldrath!

    What kind of software you used to search for the address? Some kind of cheat editor?
    This approach is useful to research these mysterious ST riddles.

    So how much dizzy does GMC gief's neutral jump headbutt do?

    It would be cool if we document all these dizzy value and put them into a comprehensive table, but that can be a lot of work.

    Or if we can reverse engineer where the table is stored in the rom and just dump the table (like the move list hitbox table).

    If we can dump the frame data table out it would be even more awesome.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    I used MAME's cheat search and just did comparisons until it left a single address. Although, I'm starting to think there is something else determining dizzies, because when I make a cheat locking that address to a certain value, it seems to act the same as if I hadn't done that.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
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