Things you just don't understand about ST

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  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    I used MAME's cheat search and just did comparisons until it left a single address. Although, I'm starting to think there is something else determining dizzies, because when I make a cheat locking that address to a certain value, it seems to act the same as if I hadn't done that.

    You need to set a breakpoint at the dizzy value address. Find out what reads from it and step through the assembly code, that way you can find the threshold or the flag (whichever it uses) that determines when the dizzy occurs that way. Just looking at the value really won't do anything unless you find out what is reading the value and how it is interpreted.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Yeah, because I totally want to step through the undoubted mess that is the Street Fighter 2 codebase with the added bonus of having to disassemble it from a ROM instead of having real code. I don't even know where I could get an arcade ROM disassembler. There's a HUGE difference between doing a few comparisons of RAM and stepping through disassembled code. Like, I'd-better-be-getting-paid-a-lot-for-this-and-get-a-few-weeks-to-do-it difference, even if someone else provided the disassembler.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    Yeah, because I totally want to step through the undoubted mess that is the Street Fighter 2 codebase with the added bonus of having to disassemble it from a ROM instead of having real code. I don't even know where I could get an arcade ROM disassembler. There's a HUGE difference between doing a few comparisons of RAM and stepping through disassembled code. Like, I'd-better-be-getting-paid-a-lot-for-this-and-get-a-few-weeks-to-do-it difference, even if someone else provided the disassembler.


    Mess? If you just find out what reads the address there is no mess, why would you be disassembling a ROM? You need to debug it....That's pretty funny that you think it'd be weeks though, it took me 30 minutes to find it.

    PRO TIP....."mame.exe -debug" ;).
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • intangiBLZintangiBLZ can't touch this Joined: Posts: 100
    Interesting stuff guys. Thanks to everyone that's responded.
    ..
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Mess? If you just find out what reads the address there is no mess, why would you be disassembling a ROM? You need to debug it....That's pretty funny that you think it'd be weeks though, it took me 30 minutes to find it.

    Can you list your findings?
  • julius blazejulius blaze is really airthrow Joined: Posts: 596
    does anyone know if in training mode the dizzy system works the same? sometimes i feel like in training mode the dummy never gets dizzy or takes a ridiculous amount of hits to dizzy.

    I feel like the Dreamcast training mode dizzies like real ST does after the round is past the 10 second mark, it does seem harder and I get less random dizzies than in real matches, but TODs are consistent.
    Everyone who likes real arcade ST, go join the dontblowthis.com forums!
  • julius blazejulius blaze is really airthrow Joined: Posts: 596
    Doesn't the Yoga Book Hyper already list dizzy averages for every attack?
    Everyone who likes real arcade ST, go join the dontblowthis.com forums!
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Nope, only damage averages.
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Mess? If you just find out what reads the address there is no mess, why would you be disassembling a ROM? You need to debug it....That's pretty funny that you think it'd be weeks though, it took me 30 minutes to find it.

    PRO TIP....."mame.exe -debug" ;).

    OK, I was using MAME 0.117, which didn't have that feature yet. The debug mode seems to be a fairly standard programming debug through disassembled code which is a little better than just pure disassembly. I'm not really familiar with MAME, though, and my old ST ROM isn't working with the newer version of MAME, so I'm trying some other ones.

    If you found it in 30 minutes, I'd be curious to know what you found. If it was just finding where that address was written to or read from, that is only step 1.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    IIRC, the new version of M.A.M.E. has the ROM from SSF2X as the parent one. There is some stuff about it on the thread about hitboxes, which uses a version of MAME with recording tools (MAME-rr, if I ain't mistaken).
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Thanks, got it working. Throwing watchpoints on FF88AB, I found these two spots where it gets written to, with all reads in the same general area:

    77EE2 subq.w #1, ($5c,A6)

    7F134 add.w D1, ($5c,A6)

    The first is where it gets decremented every frame, and the second is where the dizzy value gets added. There's some really weird syntax where it loads D1 in the second, though. The value in A6 is FFFF884E, so this makes me think that there is a struct at that address for the state of player 2 and 5c is the offset to the dizzy value, so watching all the data in there could be useful. (Player 1 looks to be FFFF844E.) I'm a C++ programmer, so stepping through assembly isn't really my thing and theres a lot of opcodes I don't know following where the value gets added.

    EDIT: Weird stuff. The above write was where jump in attacks get set. Grounded attacks are at 7F10C, as well as Chun's neutral j. hk. (Perhaps the game thinks it's a grounded normal, which would explain why it doesn't hit overhead?) Specials and super are at 7F1BE. (Chun's super and upkicks are 20, btw. The super tops off at a total of 64.) Chun's cr. hk is at 7F14E and is a hard-coded 130, unlike the others which retrieve their numbers. Lightning Legs is also hard-coded at 7F17E with 100.

    The specials are a bit easier to figure out what is going on, since it just adds 2 to the address in register A0 to pull out the dizzy number. Kikkoken, for example, is at 7EEBC, offset 2 to 7EEBE, which has a value of 90.

    There's another address that always get changed right before this one, register A5 - 0x5714. A5 seems to always be FF8000 when P1 hits P2, so the address written to is FF28EC.

    The number that gets written there is a random number within a certain range for different attacks. It isn't the damage, since the numbers don't line up and jabs sometimes come up with a zero.

    That number gets multiplied by 256 and gets added to FF88AC. It stays at that value until the value in FF88AA drops to zero, and then it drops to zero, too. It's likely that this is the real dizzy value and the other number was a dizzy timer, so it seems like as long as you hit your opponent again before the dizzy timer drops to zero, it retains all the accumulated dizzy. It seems like dizzy happens at 7680, so 30 total dizzy from the smaller original number.

    So, so if I were setting something up to look for this stuff, put watch points like this: (all 8-bit)
    Dizzy: FF88AD
    Dizzy Timer: FF88AB
    Last Attack Dizzy: FF28ED
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    I'd like to know how the damage variance works regarding different characters, like how Zangief takes less damage than everyone else and how some characters like Vega are easier to dizzy according to the wiki. I always thought it was strange how Zangief's mashing throws do more damage vs himself (assuming it does 4 hits) than fierce SPD's most of the time despite the base damage values implying otherwise (30 for fierce SPD vs 18 + 3x3 for mashing throws). Since you guys are poking around the engine maybe we will get some concrete answers and numbers on the subject. It feels like Chun's throw does more damage to Zangief than SPD's to put it in perspective, although that could just be cuz its hax :sad:.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    So, so if I were setting something up to look for this stuff, put watch points like this: (all 8-bit)
    Dizzy: FF88AD
    Dizzy Timer: FF88AB
    Last Attack Dizzy: FF28ED

    Awesome, I'm glad you're on your way to unlocking the secrets of the dizzy system through debugging. If you try Zangief's ju.u+MP/HP, does that correspond with what you'd expect from those addresses?
  • intangiBLZintangiBLZ can't touch this Joined: Posts: 100
    yeah, shout out to Cauldrath. The information you've posted thus far has been very interesting.

    Some other questions I have are:

    Does the dizzy system "counter" restart after the end of a round?

    Does the dizzy system "timer" restart after blocked attacks. I.E. Does keeping your opponent in block stun a good idea if you want to dizzy them?
    ..
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Does the dizzy system "counter" restart after the end of a round?
    Dizzy, damage (health), charge, super meter level, the timer, everything resets. Every round is a fresh start.

    The stun meter also is larger during a dizzy which is why you can't re-dizzy with any of the ToD combos in ST. The only re-dizzy with an ST character that I've seen involves Zangief (j.rh, cr.jab x2, headbutt).

    The only thing that I believe changes after a round is a value that slightly augments the throw damage of the person who lost the first round. It's a built in comeback mechanic where the person who lost the opening round gets a slight (almost unnoticeable) damage boost to normal throws (and possible attacks). I have no idea where I first heard of this and I might be confusing it with another game. But I swear it was ST....:confused:
    Does the dizzy system "timer" restart after blocked attacks. I.E. Does keeping your opponent in block stun a good idea if you want to dizzy them?
    Your stun meter is always decreasing unless you are taking damage (and therefore taking on stun). The second you get knocked down, put into block stun, or simply run away from your opponent, you automatically start decreasing your stun amount. Your stun is always decreasing unless you are getting hit.

    So if you're opponent is one hit away from dizzy, and then they block your next eight attacks, and then you connect with the ninth right out of block stun, it won't dizzy them, as their stun meter will most likely have reduced itself to zero by then. If your opponent is one attack away from being dizzied then you want to land that next attack (or throw) as quickly as possible before they reduce their stun meter to a point where one attack will not dizzy them.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Zangief's neutral j. headbutt does 21-27 dizzy, and has a dizzy timer of 100. Keep in mind this is for the world version.
    Dizzy and the dizzy timer reset to zero between rounds. The last hit's dizzy value does not.
    Zangief, Claw, and Ken all dizzy at 30.
    The dizzy timer is not affected at all by blocked attacks.
    The dizzy timer and dizzy meter are locked at zero for about a second after dizzy ends, so to redizzy you'll need a combo that generates enough dizzy after that time ends. For Zangief's j. rh, cr. jab x 2, headbutt, the j. rh and cr. jabs come out before the timer is up, so the headbutt needs to do enough dizzy by itself.
    As for the throw comeback mechanic, if you look at T. Akiba's throw damage data, he has different damages listed for when the player is behind.

    When I use the built-in cheat to change it to the Japanese version, Zangief's headbutt does 28-35 dizzy, but the numbers when the opponent is actually dizzied are inconsistent. Like, I'll go do a headbutt and dizzy with 31, but then I'll do one for 30, a jab for 2 more, and they still won't be dizzied until the 3rd one. So, there is probably some truth to dizzies happening easier at the beginning of the round in the Japanese version.

    EDIT: I did some more checking and there is a counter at FF8AFF that goes up by 2 every time an opponent is dizzied, and this counter is offset into a table at 7F1C6, which stores the values for when an opponent is dizzied. The first number is 30, followed by 34, followed by 14 35s. If you dizzy someone 16 times, it resets the counter to 2, so they can be dizzied with 34 again. These numbers are from the world version.

    Looking into throws, I found the line where the damage is calculated and, at least for Chun and Zangief, all normal throws and SPD pull their values out on the same line of code. Chun's strong throw damage is at 24E7C4. Both her fierce and Gief's strong/forward throws are at 24E784. Gief's fierce first hit is at 24E704, and later hits are at 24E764. Jab SPD is at 24E7E4, but interestingly enough, it starts out at 44 damage, but then that value is multiplied by 5, divided by 32, and then subtracted from the 44, so it drops to 38. The rest are just directly subtracted from the health value at FF8879 for player 2, so they would ignore damage scaling.

    Health is also weird. There's values at FF887B and FF8A0B that mimic the above health value over time, but aren't immediately updated to match. FF887B looks like it is a previous health value, updated each frame to match the current health, and FF8A0B has something to do with the displayed health. If I lock FF8879 to max health, though, the displayed health drops to nothing and FF8A0B cycles constantly.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • dialupsuckydialupsucky FINAL SHOWDOWN Joined: Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    lol I dunno anything about frame data hacking mame codes whatever. But I just showed corrosion for like 45 mins going through a large portion of the cast. And its what I said. Mediums tend to do more dizzy in general through out the characters. So.. if those codes are the dizzy then there must be another code that also goes with it because just by that its wrong.

    You can do the same combo with hards, and with mediums all that stuff. And well yea almost every character follows a similar patter to what I described. There is a bit of randomness in the game, but in general its actaully pretty possible to know when your going to dizzy and when you wont.

    Also to my knowledge sim and vega dizzy teh fastest. they are the characters that 2 hit dizzy combos work on the most as well. And I don't think ive seen any other character get dizzy period off a 2 hit dp besides them as well.. shrug
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    Yeah, I don't know about quoting Yoga Book Hyper but I saw a guy basically run through stuff he knows works... and, well, it all worked. Learned quite a few cool things in the process. Especially about the usefulness of jump toward medium attacks and then how you can react if it doesn't dizzy post hit.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Sorry if there's any confusion with the numbers I posted for the dizzy timers. Those aren't the numbers that actually determine when a character is dizzied, but how long they keep the amount of dizzy they've already accumulated. I was planning on continuing work on Big O's question, but I could start making a list of the amount of dizzy different attacks do. Please specify a version (World, Japan, USA, etc.) and a character if you want that, though, since I don't really feel like figuring it out for all of them.

    Also, at the start of the round, Claw, Ken, and Zangief all dizzy at 30. I haven't checked to see if the dizzies past the first one are on different tables, but they likely aren't, so they should all dizzy at the same rate, assuming attacks do the same amount of dizzy to them.

    EDIT:
    A small sample for the world version: (These may not be 100% inclusive ranges, but are just the numbers I observed when doing these attacks repeatedly.)
    Chun hitting Ken
    cl. mp 5-10
    st. mp 6-11
    cl. hp 11-15
    st. hp 11-15
    Zangief hitting Claw
    cl. mp 7-12
    st. mp 6-12
    cl. hp 11-17
    st. hp 10-18
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    Cauldrath, can you run a series of hits one after the other? Can you do cross up MK, st MP xx Fierce Shoryu with Ken against Dhalsim and then try the combo cross up MK, close st fierce xx Fierce Shoryu? That was one of the combos Clayton showed me had very funny properties that aren't really well realized, and I want to see if the numbers add up, no pun intended.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    Since I suck at combos while trying to read numbers, I'm just going to put up the dizzy numbers for each move, which are probably in line with your results anyway: (same disclaimer as before, these are just the numbers I observed, and the ranges may not be all-inclusive)

    Ken hitting Dhalsim: (Dhalsim dizzies at 30 for the first dizzy)
    cl. hp: 5-9
    cl. mp: 6-12
    j. mk: 4-11
    HP SRK: (1st hit) 3-7 (2nd) 10-15 (3rd) 3-8
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    So barring close HP maybe hitting a range of 9 randomly, it would be best to go for close MP. But this does confirm via numbers what Seikou was showing me. Thanks a lot, Cauldrath. Great of you to do that. I do want to try a few other things. No cross ups involved here, but could you do the following attack sequence on Gief and record the numbers?

    With N Ryu, sweep Gief and then perform the following combos after he gets up with Ryu.

    Jump RH, close fierce, HP Red Fireball.

    Jump MK, cr MK, any MP or HP Blue Fireball.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • julius blazejulius blaze is really airthrow Joined: Posts: 596
    Can you list the stuns for low rush punches? I'm curious if that applies to those as well, but not like I ever get much chance to use medium low rush punch...
    Everyone who likes real arcade ST, go join the dontblowthis.com forums!
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    I think low rushes are one of the moves where if it knocks down then the dizzy is halved. Same with Red Fireball and Hurricane Kick.

    Actually, I'll just straight up ask. Cauldrath, outside of specific situations, would you be willing to catalog a single character's dizzy with those numbers?
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    If I do anyone's it's probably going to be Chun's first, because that's who I play. It's going to take a lot of time to do these, so if you want to help out, you can pull up MAME, turn on cheats, and set watchpoints for these: (8-bit, 1 length, switch to decimal from hex)

    Total P2 Dizzy: FF88AD
    P2 Dizzy Timer: FF88AB
    Last Attack Dizzy: FF28ED

    Note that throws don't go into that Last Attack Dizzy memory location, so you need to look at the total dizzy number for that.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    There are little variable situations to dizzy that Clayton showed me, so that was what I was asking to test first. But if I can help, I'll do what you've outlined with probably O Ryu for said situations. Like moves that knockdown apparently resetting dizzy. It seems like Guile's flash kick doesn't follow this rule as opposed to other moves that knockdown, but I want to know for certain with one character. Lot of little "What ifs" and "maybes" here.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    Like moves that knockdown apparently resetting dizzy.
    That is not the case across the board nor do I think it is the case at all. Lots of Dictator's dizzy setups come off of specific knockdowns. Like if you knock someone down with cr.mk into RH scissor kicks, then go for an instant overhead on wakeup, you can dizzy them on that next hit. If knocking someone down reset the dizzy counter it would have been very noticeable in my opinion.





    Maybe some moves reset the dizzy counter on knockdown but my educated guess is that they do not. There are simply too many examples, with all characters, where someone has gotten knocked down and then dizzied on the first hit after rising.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    There are simply to many examples, with all characters, where someone has gotten knocked down and then dizzied on the first hit after rising.

    That's what all this testing is for, though. From what we can see on the hex data, a lot of what you thought was true has been proven false in ways. That and I saw on GGPO with my own eyes a lot of situations, and I did list an example of a move that doesn't follow the knockdown convention which came after that portion of my post you seemed to home in on. In this case, Guile's Somersault Kick.

    Seikou said that far hard attacks do a lot of dizzy, but not every hard attack does more dizzy that other attacks. I'm seeing what works, but I think this just makes it worthwhile to test. Cauldrath's data matches up, so I just want specific numbers so we can break down situations. Like, we know that a close fierce punch into shoryu shouldn't dizzy as often as a close medium punch into fierce shoryu. The numbers show why and show the various ranges of how much dizzy might be being inflicted. This is pretty good stuff, I'm busy tonight but of all the things I've been compiling and testing, this is probably the one where I don't feel in over my head. The data seems sound.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • dialupsuckydialupsucky FINAL SHOWDOWN Joined: Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I said that when you use a move that knocks down, if it does not dizzy in the hit it self, then you should take away at least basically half of whatever the move is.

    Heres a way/thought you can think of how damage/hit/stun in ST works if its easier. Sometimes over complicating things makes it more confusing so hopefully this wont sound well.. complicated... again in general a lot of characters follow a similar pattern to this...

    jump normals
    Neutral jump hards do the most they are first tier do the most damage and do the most stun
    Then neutral jump mp
    Then neutral jump mk
    Then diagonal jumps mp/mk
    Then diagonal jump hp
    Then diagonal jump hk
    Then everything else

    So obviously in general for more realstic situations you can sorta think of it like the jumping roundhouses etc are the most damaging and hit stun it self, but the least amount of stun. Fierces also do a lot of damage but do only middle sorta hit stun and middle dizzy. So there like your middle of the pack move. Where as the mediums do medium hit stun and damage, but do a lot of dizzy. And of course neutral jumps just do a lot all by themselves...

    Of course though this can't be abused per say because theres this strange thing where if you do a move to many times in a row it seems to do less? Im not exactly sure how it works, but again I assume its the same reason why rapid fire shorts do not dizzy in ST. Also even something with ryu ive tested before where ive done nothing but neutral jump HK over and over again for the whole round. And the other character never got dizzy. Which well common sense wise I would think shouldnt be possible. Since he and almost if not every character in the game has 2 hit dizzys from there neutral jumps.

    And of course ground wise its generally better to combo with mediums if you are going for dizzy. And hard if you are going for damage. Another example I showed corrosion is, say theres the whole ken cross up hk, stand hp, flame dp combo of death. Well in ST, it has a pretty big chance of missing. Well if you do mk, to a medium not only of course is the character not going to get pushed away as far since it was a medium, but you also have a high chance of dizzing from just 2 hits of the dp. So even if it was going to miss. It doesn't matter.

    blah to mcuh typeing actaully. Im done.
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    Thanks again, Seikou, lol. I don't want it to be misunderstood, I just want to get the numbers behind everything you've said there. Because of that kind test that Cauldrath did, it matched up with a situation you gave and it explained the "Well why did this combo only dizzy sometimes but this combo dizzies almost all the time?" The numbers are definitely all I'm after at this point.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Another thing I just don't get, it just utterly confuses me, and I've never read any answer that solves the problem. Here it is :
    When I go for a tick throw, when I'm the ticker, I can get a throw 90% the time against good players pushing the button just at the right time. That is first point.
    Second point is I can't reverse a tick throw more than 10 % of the time even mashing like a beast on my button.
    So global point is : isnt there a sort of priority for the one that ticks to throw ?
    And now the problem is :
    if you say yes, I say : 1/ but as we both are just able to throw after the blockstun is over, how can someone have a priority ? Because in that one frame after the block stun we both have the same chance to perform a throw ! (with the 50/50 chance stuff if you throw on the same frame blabla...).
    If you say no, I say : 2/ but man, I've played a billion matches and I can burn in hell if I lie : I'm sure 1000% I feel in my veins the advantage when I tick throw, and the disadvantage when i'm tick thrown !!

    Answer 1/ might be the correct one. But it feels soooooo wrong.
    2/ doesnt mean a thing technically ; but it seems soooo right !
    Share if you got some tremendous info about that thrilling dilemma
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Reversal throws always win. If the character being ticked is out of range, the normal does not come out. The issue is hitting the button at that precise frame. I guess if you would set a macro+autofire button to have, say, strong pressed at a frame then fierce the next one, then repeat, you would get the throw mostly every time (you might be out of range a few times).

    I believe the issue is being in control. The ticker knows which attack he uses to tick and if the throw attempt will actually happen. The defender must judge and react, and he is under pressure.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    Second point is I can't reverse a tick throw more than 10 % of the time even mashing like a beast on my button.

    Just turn that turbo on!!!!!

    Seriously, if you have a turbo that can do 20/sec, you can see that you'll reverse throw 50% if your opponent is decent and maybe more if they suck.

    Cigarbob taught me not to mash when counter throw. Instead, treat it exactly like reversal DP and use double tap technique.

    i.e.
    instead of mash way ahead of time before you're out of stun at a rate of 14 button taps per second (your chance of hitting the reverse throw frame is low), practice and time your counter throw at the correct frame and double tap at 30 button taps per second (although you actually only tap twice.. i.e. the taps are extremely close, one after another like you double tap reversal dp).
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    I didn't say anything, those morons brought it up, lol. I asked a legitimate question, already got my answer playing around in FBA-RR, I can consistently stop the hop back on blanka's super. They're just butt hurt over some nonsense on ggpo. Taking the internet way too seriously.

    You're just as bad as those guys who said they can control it and not explain how, because by not explaining how you did it after you found out you're hiding information from future players trying to figure this out.... Although I don't play blanka, it frustrates me so much when I have a problem with my a computer program and I try to google the answer, there will be like 10 places where people are asking, and one place where a problem is marked solved. but all the poster says is "nvm I got it" without explaining how he got it or what he did.

    Even if it's not the same solution to what's causing my problem, it can give me insight for more things to try... (same thing if I come across similar problems in future games, etc... if we're talking about how you got the blanka super to not roll)
    Sorry if there's any confusion with the numbers I posted for the dizzy timers. Those aren't the numbers that actually determine when a character is dizzied, but how long they keep the amount of dizzy they've already accumulated.
    [snip]

    That's actually very interesting, especially since you got crazy high numbers for LL ... Maybe I can catch people off guard by dizzying them a bit after Landing LLs
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    I finally got around to putting together Chun's numbers: (the range is the amount of dizzy, the second number is the dizzy timer added, and the same disclaimer that the ranges may not be all-encompassing)

    cl. lp: 0-4, 40
    cl. mp: 5-10, 60
    cl. hp: 11-15, 80
    cl. lk: 1-5, 40
    cl. mk: 6-11, 60
    cl. hk: 10-15, 80
    cr. lp: 0-4, 40
    cr. mp: 6-10, 60
    cr. hp: 11-15, 80
    cr. lk: 1-4, 40
    cr. mk: 5-11, 60
    cr. hk: 6-10, 130
    st. lp: 0-4, 40
    st. mp: 6-11, 60
    st. hp: 11-15, 80
    st. lk: 0-5, 40
    st. mk: 7-11, 60
    st. hk: 11-16, 80
    Neckbreaker: 11-15, 80
    Flip Away Kick: 0-5, 50
    neutral j. lp: 1-6, 40
    neutral j. mp: 6-10, 50
    neutral j. hp: 12-17, 60
    neutral j. lk: 1-7, 40
    neutral j. mk: 6-11, 50
    neutral j. hk: 10-16, 80
    Head Stomp: 2-8, 60
    diagonal j. lp: 2-6, 40
    diagonal j. mp: 6-10, 50
    diagonal j. hp: 12-16, 60
    diagonal j. lk: 1-7, 40
    diagonal j. mk: 6-11, 50
    diagonal j. hk: 11-16, 60
    Kikkoken 8-12, 90
    Lightning Legs: 5-11, 100
    Spinning Bird Kick 7-13, 90
    Upkicks: 0-4, 20
    Super: 0-2, 20
    Throw: 7-13, 100
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    I have a few questions about the dizzy timer. Do the dizzy timer values add up or does the next hit's value override the last? Assuming they add up, is there a cap on how high the dizzy timer can get? When does the timer start counting down? Does being in hitlag/stop or being knocked down pause the dizzy timer?

    My last question is what is the "Last Attack Dizzy" value mean? If it is what I think it is, I'm not sure why it wouldn't reset to 0 in the next round and why throws don't seem to contribute to it.

    I'll try to see if I can help out with some of the dizzy values. I'm always pretty bad at setting things up so we'll see how that goes lol.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I second Big O's questions.
  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    I have a few questions about the dizzy timer. Do the dizzy timer values add up or does the next hit's value override the last? Assuming they add up, is there a cap on how high the dizzy timer can get? When does the timer start counting down? Does being in hitlag/stop or being knocked down pause the dizzy timer?

    My last question is what is the "Last Attack Dizzy" value mean? If it is what I think it is, I'm not sure why it wouldn't reset to 0 in the next round and why throws don't seem to contribute to it.

    I'll try to see if I can help out with some of the dizzy values. I'm always pretty bad at setting things up so we'll see how that goes lol.

    The dizzy timer is added to with every attack and ticks down by 1 every single frame, including during hit pause, but not during super freeze. While logically there is a cap to how high the dizzy timer can go, you're going to dizzy long before you reach that point.

    The last attack dizzy just seems to be a memory location where the value of the dizzy is stored before being applied. It's just temporary data that doesn't get cleared when the game is done with it, because it doesn't affect anything outside of that function. I'm sure that throws apply dizzy in a different section of code, and because of that don't use the same local value. Some example C++ code of what generally happens:
    int LastAttackDizzy=AttackInfo[AttackNumber].BaseDizzyValue;
    PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].DizzyTimer+=AttackInfo[AttackNumber].DizzyTimer;
    LastAttackDizzy+=rand()%AttackInfo[AttackNumber].DizzyRandomRange;
    PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].Dizzy+=LastAttackDizzy;
    if(PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].Dizzy>=MaxDizzyValues[PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].NumTimesDizzied]) {
       PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].IsDizzied=true;
       PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].DizzyTimer=0;
       PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].Dizzy=0;
    }
    
    Then, every frame when there isn't super freeze:
    if(PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].Dizzy>0) {
       PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].DizzyTimer--;
       if(PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].DizzyTimer<=0) {
          PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].DizzyTimer=0;
          PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].Dizzy=0;
       }
    }
    
    The only part of the dizzy system that I don't consider "solved" is finding the timer for when a character is immune to dizzy after recovering from one. Figuring out how long that timer is and if anything keeps it from ticking will let us figure out what you'd need to do to get a redizzy combo.
    My blog where I try to break games: http://cauldrath.blogspot.com/
    My videos of me trying to break games: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cauldrath
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    hmm... so, LL + throw if you miss a dizzy combo and don't want to lose your chance... and land that last hit to dizzy...

    I remember you said you got different numbers for the dizzy timer earlier before you knew what it was... does that mean that number is an average? what's the range for that?
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    If I understand correctly Chun DJ Roundhouse, Close FP xx Kikkoken should always dizzy an undizzied opponent.
    diagonal j. hk: 11-16, 60
    cl. hp: 11-15, 80
    Kikkoken 8-12, 90
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
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