Things you just don't understand about ST

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  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    So, my argument is that the properties of moves (hit boxes, attributes such as start up time, number of hitting frames, and recovery) are so much more important than the degree of dizzy, that you would never select a normal based on it's dizzy properties rather than it's other attributes. Only in cases where two normals are functionally equivalent but one normal does far more dizzy would knowing the dizzy numbers be useful.

    I'm happy to be argued around, but that's how it seems to me.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • philcitophilcito The Berserker Shoto Joined: Posts: 1,178
    i really hate how sim is able to dizzy almost any character with 2 hits, fuck that, fuck it man!, however, ken vs sim is an interesting matchup, i love it, call me masoquist.

    that's why i love to play vs optimo, robbiers and other good sim players.
    "You hit coins at the same time as punch, just like philcito does". Bookah
    " I don't snore and I shower daily". Rekkaken

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  • ElkiporElkipor Joined: Posts: 43
    SPD is a throw, a grab is like Blanka's bite, Ken's knee bash, Sim's noogie, etc.

    SPD is a grab, after grabbing the other player, the throw happens, the other grabs you mention are known as "holds" yet both throws and holds are grabs, because you first grab them, then either a hold or a throw happens, depending the button pressed.

    You try to be pedantic yet you were wrong.
  • ComedyBlissOptionComedyBlissOption Joined: Posts: 65
    Yeah you're right geo. I've been testing some other chars while watching streams and there's some really bizarre stun values set for normals. There's a lot of hard close/jumping normals that just randomly have really low stun. There might be some overlooked thing w/ really high stun for no good reason who knows.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Sirlin mentioned that LP spd does the least damage and most stun of the different strength spds while HP spd does the opposite on both spectrums. I'm not sure if he validated that through the code but do your tests corroborate that info, CBO? Also, would you happen to have any noticeably strange stun values for claw by any chance?
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    I still think that the "universal" truths that they've found don't quite correlate to every character. I still notice that shotos seem to gain more consistent stun off their medium attacks... so I'm still thinking the ranges of stun inflicted matter in some way.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • Big OBig O Joined: Posts: 381
    I think the reason LP SPD is the best for stun is because it deals damage/stun a bit earlier than the other versions. The dizzy timer goes to 0 before the SPD hurts them most of the time (and goes back to 0 before they wakeup 99% of the time). I kind of doubt it actually does noticeably more stun than the other versions. Even if it did, it would only apply to situations where you can get the dizzy timer high enough to allow the SPD stun to contribute to the total stun (xup splash + cr. lp x4). By then you will probably have generated enough stun to dizzy them with almost anything anyway.

    I've been 2 hit dizzied as Zangief from Dhalsim's far mk/hp before. Dhalsim in general is probably dizzies me more than anyone else. I'd bet his stun values are bs. I've also noticed that vega's roll thing and ken's tatsus give them like an hour to dizzy you after they hit. Sagat's tiger shots also seem to have bs stun properties compared to other fireballs. What would I need to check this stuff out?

    When does the dizzy timer get added and when does it start counting down? I'm guessing it starts the frame you hit them and counts down right after that, but does it ever stop counting down (like during hit freeze or the lag when a projectile hits someone)? Also how often does it do the minimum or maximum stun? Is there like an equal chance for any number within the range or is it weighted towards the average?
  • ComedyBlissOptionComedyBlissOption Joined: Posts: 65
    If you want to check the values yourself, use the ST world version rom in mame and put a watch on these hex addresses:
    00ff88ad dizzy
    00ff28ed last attack dizzy
    00ff88ab dizzy timer

    The timer gets added right when you take damage and counts down immediately on the next frame. The timer counts down through hitstun, blockstun, knockdown, throw animations, etc (but not super freeze). The timer counts down at 75/second I think since the game simulates at that speed (while the graphics/input is 60 fps). The dizzy seems weighted toward the middle in some way w/ the minimum and maximum having very low chances of occurring.

    After testing a few more chars, I think the general dizzy values for moves is as follows:
    template
    move		stun	time	notes
    ground light	0-5	40
    ground med	5-11	60
    ground hard	11-16	80
    cr.hk		6-11	130	sweep
    
    dj light	2-7	40
    dj med		6-11	50
    dj hard		11-17	60
    
    nj light	1-7	40
    nj med		5-11	50
    nj hard		11-17	60
    
    normal throws	7-13	100
    
    common bizarrely little move values:
    ground hard	3-8	40
    ground hard	1-7	70
    nj mid		2-5	40
    dj hard		4-8	40
    
    I think this generally applies to most normals in the game vs ryu. Some values might be off by 1-2 and it might differ slightly for some chars who have slightly more/less dizzy, but it shouldn't really matter. When I post chars later I'm just going to post the wierd moves that deviate from that template or are unintuitively low.
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    dizzy values so random, they fluctuate a lot lol
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
    I still think that the "universal" truths that they've found don't quite correlate to every character. I still notice that shotos seem to gain more consistent stun off their medium attacks... so I'm still thinking the ranges of stun inflicted matter in some way.
    It is just that most shotos Fierce and Roundhouse attacks have been nerfed in terms of stun. This is blatant when you compare to Chun, Zangief or pretty every other character in the game.
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184

    Look ryu's "super" @ 8sec. WTF is that ?!
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,731

    Look ryu's "super" @ 8sec. WTF is that ?!

    I see him doing an uppercut, and WAY too many colors spazzing out in the background. I just think the way it's edited, its made to appear as if his super was a dragon punch.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
    I believe it is a beta/test version. Some friends told me it would flash the screen if specials were used to finish the enemy and also that Gief's cr.RH did chip damage, but it would never kill on block.

    Edit: that Cammy was TASTY!
  • psychostasiapsychostasia precision machinery Joined: Posts: 32
    I believe it is a beta/test version. Some friends told me it would flash the screen if specials were used to finish the enemy and also that Gief's cr.RH did chip damage, but it would never kill on block.

    thats probably it. in the 1994 SSF2 tournament uploaded to youtube that included beta footage of ST a kid finished off a guile with feis dp and the super flash occurred. ive never heard about that gief sweep thing though (in fact this is all i know about beta ST entirely. anyone know where i can read more? a little curious)

    i still think the super flash is one of the coolest ko animations in any fighting game and id imagine itd be pretty annoying if it was left like that
    Thanks papasi.
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 893
    The beta version of Zangief's low RH did do chip damage. We had a beta test version here for a little while and I do remember that.
    Shhh... ST in da house!

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  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    The beta version of Zangief's low RH did do chip damage. We had a beta test version here for a little while and I do remember that.

    because FUCK T. HAWK. lulz. hawk is capcoms red headed step child grappler.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • Spirited_AwaySpirited_Away Joined: Posts: 521 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I remember some beta talk from alt.games.sf2, Blanka's hop was fully invinicible (both backwards/towards), Chicken Wing/Hooligan were fireball motions. Ryu's Super was also fully invincible. And the super freeze was a bit longer (you can notice that in the Norcal SSF2 footage w/beta ST).
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    I believe it is a beta/test version. Some friends told me it would flash the screen if specials were used to finish the enemy and also that Gief's cr.RH did chip damage, but it would never kill on block.

    Edit: that Cammy was TASTY!
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
    snip
    Nice, thanks for posting this! I had checked that, it was the first video I have looked when Fuud gave us the link to that SSF2 Tournament thread. I recall it was created when I started lurking SRK. I was impressed that Watson was punishing every mid/close distance Hadouken from Ken with Ryu's Tatsumaki, for a trade. BTW, that kid playing Fei did great, specially cos it was just a beta.

    I believe credit should go where it is due: earqueman was the person who has told me of that. He kindly picked me at the airport for a ST gathering he was doing at his place, and told me about the old scene at his town, Curitiba, on the way to such gathering.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    I was on the bus just now, thinking about a discussion about reversals in SF4 and SF2 etc.. etc... and I realized something, and I'd just like a confirmation or someone to tell me if i'm way off the mark

    But in that discussion they were talking about 3 frame reversals in SF4 vs 1 frame in SF2 or whatever. And as I was thinking about this, I also thought about how during frame skips hitbox interactions still go through however inputs are ignored.

    Does that mean that theoretically, due to frameskips in Turbo speeds, even someone with perfect execution won't be able to reversal 100% of the time in SF2?
    and there will be more frameskips at higher speeds and therefore have a lower chance of reversaling...?

    I also realized while thinking about this that lots of my strategy does depend on people not reversal 100%, and some confirmation on this will help me a bit when thinking about what's the best choice for risk reward situations vs people with high execution.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    The game always leaves in 1 reversal frame during reversal situations so there's always a 100% reversal chance if timed correctly. Without frameskip, there are actually 2 reversal frames in many situations At faster speeds, the second reversal frame is lost but the first never disappears. However, even faster speeds may have some instances with 2 reversal frames but don't count on it, esp. not at tourney standard Turbo 3 (JP).

    Also, inputs aren't ever entirely ignored. If you hold your charge, even when the game is slowed down and inputs are dropped for a moment, then you'll keep it. If you let go, then you lose it.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,971
    ...
    Also, inputs aren't ever entirely ignored. If you hold your charge, even when the game is slowed down and inputs are dropped for a moment, then you'll keep it. If you let go, then you lose it.

    Well, the game only samples at 60 Hz. If you hit a button or a direction for less than a frame (not that difficult) it can slip past the game. During projectile slowdown, the sampling rate is slowed, and it's easier to have inputs ignored.

    When a frame is skipped, it seems that the game uses the same input for both the displayed and skipped frames, so you can block during skipped frames, and skipped frames count toward charge times. (This means that there may be frame skip unblockables against characters with asymetric hitboxes - most notably boxer who leans back while blocking.)
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Don't think it is mentionned in the ST wiki :
    it seems that in the end of the round, by 100 vital exactly, some moves can kill you EVEN IF you block. I think Blanka's roll, Hawk dive, Ryu/Ken (?) fierce DP, maybe N.Sagat / O.sagat Dp's also, fei's DP, plus certainly more (except Boxer TAP, because they generally do more than 100 vital chip damage).
    Can someone do a complete list of these moves, and let us know if that applies to everyone in the cast (not sure for instance, that Gief is concerned) ?
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    That read kind of awkwardly, so you're basically saying, if you have 100 vital or less, the chip damage of those moves will do extra damage?
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Chip damage when 100 vital leads to 0 vital. But some moves kill at that point, I just want to know if someone knows more about it.
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,171
    I just thought some moves simply do more chip damage...
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Ryu fierce DP do as much chip damage as a fireball, except when the opponent is at 100 vital. Nevermind but, I think I noticed something that hasn't been pointed out until then it seems.
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
    I believe it is just moves that do more damage. Boxer's and Honda's specials, Ken's Jab SRK, Ryu's Fierce SRK, Blanka's Fierce ball, etc.
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    !

    first combo is cross up into st forward into standing jab into super. I don't understand that. Also the combo at 1:12 with Chun at the end she walks forward before the upkicks.

    The other day I did Kens reversal super glitch. Only I accidently went all the way to upforward. So I get the reversal message right, but I jumped out of whatever special move was about to come out. The jump canceled any sound that would tell me what special move it was.
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    It's possible to keep the charge for super by holding nothing but :d: during a jump, if you hold :db: or :df: during a jump it'll take longer to charge and remove the charge as you crossup, however if you hold just :d: during a jump flashkick and super charge at the exact same time.

    Also, to do the jab from the st. forward and still maintain super charge, you have to space out the :d: :f: :b: :u:, so during some of the frames for st forward he is putting the inputs for the super the very last frame it will accept it, and finally cancelling it during the jab.

    Same concept with Chun, the move stays charged for a few frames after :d: is released. It's like walking forward and booming.

    Different game, same principal:

    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    Well this is more a general problem. Why is Capcom so bad at programming?

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    I don't see it as a problem, it's just input leniency and how the game determines a motion and that method is perfectly fine, I think all fighters use this. The game waits x frames to see if you're charged or did the correct motion, then you have x amount of frames to follow up to the 2nd motion otherwise the entire special/super is erased and you have to start over.

    If they didn't do this you wouldn't be able to buffer in specials or supers.

    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

    I can see the set up now. cross ( blocked ) cr jab x3 walk forward for reversal grab bait than BAM super
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,443
    holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

    I can see the set up now. cross ( blocked ) cr jab x3 walk forward for reversal grab bait than BAM super
    You've forgotten the option-select throw just before it!
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    snip
    Well I made that post before you did that major overhaul of an edit

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    If only Guile was Chun Li....

    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    bringing back the dev tools?

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

    [8/6/2014 8:19:53 PM] Pasky: jedpossum, hacker of the obscure fighting games

  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    Nah, that's actually possible. Just not humanly possible.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    thats a long ass walk
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    Ok another question.


    Which frames of Kens Strong and Fierce DP are the ones that knock down or what is the circumstances for them to knock down.
    I need to find this out to see how close to get to Ken on my sakos.

    If its within the first half then I'll get closer and if its on the second half then I'll be farther back.
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
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