Things you just don't understand about ST

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  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    you're right. Maybe I'm thinking of link into super.
    EDIT: If you're talking about the whiffed rush trick:
    It's not a link - the rush punch has to whiff, or it takes too long for the super to come out.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • afro legendsafro legends Pugilist Specialist Joined: Posts: 256
    It's not a link - the rush punch has to whiff, or it takes too long for the super to come out.
    Actually, the rush punch doesn't have to whiff. You can combo a high rush into super or low rush, opponent be blocking, then cancel into super. The timing is really strict though but it can be done.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Boxer can also link a meaty tap into super; Ryu, Ken, Guile, Chun and Sagat can link a meaty projectile into super in the corner (maybe Dhalsim, too; Chun can sometimes do it midscreen), and I suspect Fei may link a really meaty Rekka kick into his super, too. There should be some more (less practical) setups, such as that Ryu vs Claw thing of Maj's.
  • WTF-AKUMA-HAXWTF-AKUMA-HAX BLACK-GOKU-HAX Joined: Posts: 18,024
    I actually think it's pretty ridiculous that Dhalsim's throw range is so ridiculous. You give him some of the best zoning abilities in the entire game, AND an extremely powerful throw? Ridiculous.

    Heck. Balrog's st.fierce has a physically impossible range. It's his his arms are vastly longer than his legs. If his throw range was as long as his arms, he could grab you from mid screen. lol.
    Too much yoga. Which # of the killing arts is the throw, again?

    Always wondered what's up with real life boxer matchup cards pre-fight and someone having like ridiculous 70 inch reach but he's a middle weight and not dhalsim lanky. Like how do they measure this stat?


    Best part of "Gigaton Punch" was that stand Fierce, reversed, flipped.
    Sorry for this joking off topic post right after the informative one by Afro, carry on with the knowledge ya'll.
    1999 = "A Game with Parries isn't Street Fighter"
    2016 = "Releasing a Complete Game isn't Street Fighter"
    You wouldn't even understand if I told you.
    People will forget what you said.
    People will forget what you did.
    But, people will never forget how you made them feel.

  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Actually, the rush punch doesn't have to whiff. You can combo a high rush into super or low rush, opponent be blocking, then cancel into super. The timing is really strict though but it can be done.

    Yeah. My brain got stuck on the whiffed uppercut rush -> super trick where the same charge is used for the special and the super. You
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • MizukiMizuki ayy lmao Joined: Posts: 3,200
    random thing: ochun wanting to do neckbreaker not all the time.
    www.twitter.com/thenipahhut
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Sim's throw range makes perfect sense to me... he has no decent reversal, if he had a short throw range he would be completely destroyed once the opponent got closer. Just because his zoning is very good does not means that it should be GG for every character once you trapped him in the corner.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Sim's throw range makes perfect sense to me... he has no decent reversal, if he had a short throw range he would be completely destroyed once the opponent got closer. Just because his zoning is very good does not means that it should be GG for every character once you trapped him in the corner.

    No, Sim is dumb. His zoning is too good.

    As far I'm concerned anyways.
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    I'd add a reasonable start-up to his drills. I think they are the main issue. They give him too many safe counter-measures that make it difficult to ever pressure him.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    I'd add a reasonable start-up to his drills. I think they are the main issue. They give him too many safe counter-measures that make it difficult to ever pressure him.

    They do have a minimum jump height. Otherwise there'd be drill infinites.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    They do have a minimum jump height. Otherwise there'd be drill infinites.

    Dude I'm trying to eat, I might vomit now thinking of that.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • KyouyaKyouya SSF2T Joined: Posts: 173
    Sim's throw range makes perfect sense to me... he has no decent reversal, if he had a short throw range he would be completely destroyed once the opponent got closer. Just because his zoning is very good does not means that it should be GG for every character once you trapped him in the corner.
    Tell that to Dictator players... Sim and Boxer throw range are just stupid.
    Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy.
  • ultracomboultracombo Weakest Loser Joined: Posts: 741
    I actually think it's pretty ridiculous that Dhalsim's throw range is so ridiculous. You give him some of the best zoning abilities in the entire game, AND an extremely powerful throw? Ridiculous.

    Heck. Balrog's st.fierce has a physically impossible range. It's his his arms are vastly longer than his legs. If his throw range was as long as his arms, he could grab you from mid screen. lol.

    Well, at least they have 2 legs, can't say the same for Chun.
    "If ultracombo misses a low roundhouse, he is likely to continue doing it." - TheMuffinMan
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    Well, at least they have 2 legs, can't say the same for Chun.
    last time I checked, Chun Li had 2 legs... :p
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Not sure if this is common knowledge, but I used to think that a move being 'special cancellable' (able to be cancelled during impact freeze) was some particular property set in the move data itself, and that it was separate from whatever allowed 'kara cancels' (able to be cancelled before active frames).

    I now believe this isn't true - I noticed when you perform a standing normal, a memory counter gets set to 5 and then decrements on each frame. When this value is non-zero a special move can be cancelled into. This counter seems to not only control kara-cancels, but special cancels - it is NOT decremented during impact freeze (meaning cancelling into a special move is allowed during impact freeze IF impact freeze occurs during the 5 frames after a normal is started).

    Therefore, my theory is that any normal move with a startup of 5f or less (i.e. hits before or on the 5th frame) is 'special cancellable'.

    I was actually investigating Hyper Fighting when I found this, and thought that maybe the behaviour changed for CPS2, since quite a few more moves are 'special cancellable' in ST - but from what I can tell they all adhere to this theory as well. For instance, Dictator's cr.MK which was NOT special cancellable in HF, now is in ST - and indeed its startup is now reduced to 5f (from 6f).

    I guess the cancel system therefore is:

    5 non-impact-freeze frames of cancellability (the 'kara cancel' window) - this so far seems to be character independent, and move independent.
    Moves with >5f startup cannot be 'special cancelled'
    Moves with >6f startup have regions before active frames where they cannot be kara-cancelled
    Moves with <5f startup have regions after impact freeze where they can be special cancelled

    It's possible some option selects could be generated with this knowledge, I guess, but I doubt there are many useful gameplay ramifications from this that can be gleaned. At the very least it means that the task of determining whether a move is special cancellable for frame data tables in the wiki should now be pretty trivial :) It's also a cross-check for frame data being correct - for instance I thought HF Ryu's cl.MK was special cancellable, but T.Akiba's frame data claimed it has 5f of pre-active frames (i.e. 6f startup). The correct frame data is 5f startup, and it IS special cancellable :)

    Interestingly, jumping normals don't set this memory value, so I'm not currently sure what controls when a jumping normal is special cancellable or not.

    Any thoughts, counter-examples etc appreciated.
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Counter example: Old and New Blanka have identical ground normals (same startup), but O.Blanka can cancel only his Close and Command Strongs.
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Blanka_(ST)
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/O._Blanka_(ST)
    BTW the special an super cancel info on the wiki is already complete. If i'm not mistaken, i remember testing every normal move in the game.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Counter example: Old and New Blanka have identical ground normals (same startup), but O.Blanka can cancel only his Close and Command Strongs.
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Blanka_(ST)
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/O._Blanka_(ST)
    BTW the special an super cancel info on the wiki is already complete. I actually tested every normal move in the game.

    Interesting, those are good examples for me to check out. I note that close and command strongs are the only moves I expect COULD be special cancelled given O.Blanka's frame data (in other words, O.Blanka conforms to my theory), so maybe something DID change in ST?
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Interestingly, jumping normals don't set this memory value, so I'm not currently sure what controls when a jumping normal is special cancellable or not.

    Isn't it the case that only characters with jumping special moves can cancel jumping normals (eg Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Chun Li and Hawk)? I can't speak for Chun LI, and I'm sure everybody already knows this, but for Ryu, Ken, Akuma and Hawk they can only cancel jumping punches when doing jumps toward the opponent. They can cancel both punches and kicks when jumping neutrally (I'm not sure if Hawk can cancel both punch and kick when jumping neutrally).

    I checked the frame data and all of Ryu and Ken's jumping normals have less than 5 frames (or equal to 5f), so that rule seems to be in effect for them. But Hawk's neutral jump Fierce, RH and diagonal RH have greater than 5f startup. I'm not sure if Hawk can cancel these normals into Dive, but I'd be interested to know if anyone can test it.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    snip
    That's pretty much the rule, but as B2SPD stated, there are exceptions. The whole special-cancel thing comes from this kara-cancel bug, back in the SF2WW days. In that game, mash specials (HHS, Lightning Legs) could never cancel a normal, which has been changed in CE, so we see things have been inconsistent from the start. But I wonder how much worse of a game SF2 would have been without the special cancels.

    Ganelon has also pointed out a few times that some command normals have different properties. For instance, Guile's bazooka knee and Fei's RH hop kick have shorter kara-cancel periods.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    Ganelon has also pointed out a few times that some command normals have different properties. For instance, Guile's bazooka knee and Fei's RH hop kick have shorter kara-cancel periods.

    Technically, I think, the kara-cancel period is the same, but, once the character is airborne, they can't do the special moves anymore.
    Certain characters like O Blana and N Fei have different cancel windows.
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    I think ken can cancel tatsu on a jump back punch but I don't really remember its a shenanigan anyway.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Not sure where blitzfu got that. o_O One can cancel back jumping attacks into specials. In fact, I'm not aware of any difference between towards and backwards jumping attacks - but the jump arc and direction, of course.

    I woun't say it's a shennanigan. It gives you meter and it's safe against most characters.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I never said backjump normals can't be cancelled. I only assumed people like Coth and OSB were smart enough to realize that when I said "towards the opponent" that I meant both diagonal jumps ("towards" is a diagonal). Of course Ken can cancel backjump punch into Air Tatsu.
  • Coth_XCoth_X G(x) = (3/(1-3x)) - 3 - 3x - 27x^2 Joined: Posts: 4,340
    Um ok?

    Towards means towards.

    No harm intended but you said an explict direction that was all I was clarifying.


    Br, I only feel its a shenanigan because doing jump back punch tatsu is hard to land effectively.

    Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2
    "The purpose of proof is to understand, not to verify." - Arnold Ross
    http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/534416 <--- Coolest Game Ever!
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    is it that hard to use the term "diagonal jump" ??????????????
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • Adrian GordonAdrian Gordon Joined: Posts: 35
    I understand vaguely how T.Hawks negative edge tick SPD OS's work, but damned if I can figure out/find a way to escape them. Is it possible? Sorry if that's a bit away from general game mechanics and not thread appropriate, didn't want to spam new thread.
    Deal with it.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    I understand vaguely how T.Hawks negative edge tick SPD OS's work, but damned if I can figure out/find a way to escape them. Is it possible? Sorry if that's a bit away from general game mechanics and not thread appropriate, didn't want to spam new thread.

    yes. who are you using against hawk? everyone has their own way.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Depends on character you re using. If your character has a long throw range (e.g. Gief, Hawk, Honda, Blanka, Sim) you can try to grab him, or if it has a safe on block reversal or something else to give you some spacing. Also, some characters have very fast prejump animations (e.g. Dictator), you can try to just jump out of the tick, and it will work if the Hawk player's timing isnt on point. But yeah, if your character does not has any of that , then you'll eat that typhoon. Just be careful and don't allow him to land another one. But if you're already cornered, unless the Hawk player misses it the round is lost.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • fluxcorefluxcore Fighting Kiwi Joined: Posts: 311
    Counter example: Old and New Blanka have identical ground normals (same startup), but O.Blanka can cancel only his Close and Command Strongs.
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Blanka_(ST)
    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/O._Blanka_(ST)


    According to http://nki.combovideos.com/data.html (first section - Cancel Time For Normal Moves) - and verified by myself - the reason for this difference is that the cancel window was extended from 5f to 6f for ST chars. For O.Blanka it's still 5f and for N.Blanka it's 6f - which explains the extra attacks that N.Blanka can cancel :) And for anyone wondering, the difference between the whiff/hit frame cancel windows is exactly the impact freeze duration - 14f. As mentioned in my previous post, the cancel window isn't decremented during impact freeze, allowing this further special cancel time.

    Evidently T.akiba or whoever worked this 5f number out before me, but it's nice to understand WHY it is how it is... and that site doesn't really give any indication as to WHICH moves are able to be special cancelled or that the ability to special cancel is tied to this number.

    I've tested O.Blanka vs N.Blanka, but also O.Ryu vs N.Ryu - and oddly, O.Ryu retains the ST 6f cancel window. I'm guessing it makes no difference since damn near all his normals are cancellable with the 5f window anyway :P It does however indicate that there's no global "this value for N chars, this other value for O chars" though.

    This info combined with the "bazooka knee etc becomes airborne, disabling special cancels" makes a lot of sense to me, and possibly covers all the ground special cancel cases...

    As for super cancels - there's a separate counter for this. As mentioned in the T.Akiba page, it counts down from 7, but *DOES* decrement during impact freeze. This explains why 'super cancels' are much harder than 'special cancels' - you are missing 14f of cancel window.

    So:
    Moves which start hitting on the 7th frame or earlier can be cancelled into super via kara or 'super cancel'
    The 'super cancel' window is 7 - (startup - 1) : so a move which first hits on the 6th frame will have a 2f super cancel window.
    Moves which start hitting on the 7th frame should be super cancellable (with a 1f window), but not 'special cancellable'.


    I still haven't investigated anything to do with the air normal cancellability, but I'm pretty confident (at least in HF) it's not related to these cancel counters, regardless of how the frame data might agree. The values simply don't get set.
    There is no knowledge that is not power
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Well, i think its not new that T.akiba's data is not 100% right. His frame data has errors as well. So yeah, theres no global value for N and O.Chars, I believe each character has his own maximum. Anyway, short cancel times in command normals because they put the char in the air makes sense.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • RufusRufus An unexpected database error has occurred. Joined: Posts: 1,966
    ...
    I still haven't investigated anything to do with the air normal cancellability, but I'm pretty confident (at least in HF) it's not related to these cancel counters, regardless of how the frame data might agree. The values simply don't get set.

    What happens with the value when there's renda (chain) cancelling?
    It's possible to jump cancel renda chained moves.
    Special moves cancel jump start-up. Is there a similar value for that?
    Is it possible to renda xx jump xx special cancel?

    Dunno, I haven't done much testing with air normal cancels. A fun one to test, would be neckbreaker xx air SBK with chun. (Though that may be impossible due to height restrictions...)

    If you're feeling masochistic, something that I'm really curious about is the cancel mechanics for Rekkas. (Lightning leg -> lightning leg cancel is cute, but doesn't really matter in-game.)
    Hitboxes http://www.pedantic.org/~nate/HDR/
    "You don't know what you're talking about as much as I do." -- Unknown
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    Well, i think its not new that T.akiba's data is not 100% right. His frame data has errors as well. So yeah, theres no global value for N and O.Chars, I believe each character has his own maximum. Anyway, short cancel times in command normals because they put the char in the air makes sense.

    I've been saying this for ages...
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
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