Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Player Interview with David Boudreau aka XSPR from Japan

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  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    The potential is there for o.Sagat and claw to get advantages that are too good. With old/Super Sagat, it's about two things, namely 1) the high speed of his tiger shot fb projectile, and 2) his recovery time (and those two things complement one another). His throw range isn't any worse than just about anyone else except honda and sim. Yeah his dp move is something of an anomaly but if you get caught by it low it is very powerful. But that's ok, you probably won't get hit too often because you'll be too busy blocking tigers most of the time. With claw, it's mostly the wall dive, but he also has extras: extra range, damage, and speed. Dhalsim is very strong but slow and has NO reversal to wake-up attack with. Good all around almost as good as Chun Li that way.

    Boxer's super not so good?? It's the best one in the entire game. throw him out of it?? yeah good luck with THAT strategy. Boxer is extremely strong, and his wakeup move does him just fine. However you can outguess the player but you've got to do it really well. Facing him on hdr speed or online it gets even trickier esp with dp characters. Chun Li is powerful esp when you have her beat by almost half her lifebar, but you know you can't rest because in a couple seconds, two fast walk up throws can win her the round.

    Totally agreed about ST's longevity. When Alpha 1 came out people were all like why do you want to play that old game?

    "WAIT everyone STOP, STOP the tournament from starting, Thao wants to practice Sagat's dp first, he gets to do that because it was so powerful in ST and he needs to adjust!"

    I don't think boxers super is the best in the game, you can counter the pauses he randomly gets during the super, I think what makes his super seem broken is the guy builds meter so damn quick, because he has an endless amount of safe block strings and TAP's build tons of meter. I'd say ryu's super is best IMO, and chun/boxer's probably next. Boxer's isn't always exactly safe on block and if I see a pause during his super, I almost always get the reversal...it's not even a 1 frame window, you don't even need to reversal.

    All in my opinion of course...
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • SabinSabin Arcana 2 on PS2 SUX Joined: Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    godlike interviews papasi keep doing them when you can. btw i remember that tourney xspr was talking about (the break alpha 3 one,) i was there. lol. jimmy fong and the other guys you mentioned dont play anymore though :(
    SRK should stand for Stupid Retarded Kids.
    Originally Posted by Alidfe
    Arturo Sanchez won't be the best Dhalsim until he moves to Kyoto and changes his name to Kazuhiko Nitsuma.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    @pasky

    Boxer's super is almost the undisputed best super in the game.

    1. A lot of start up invincible frames
    2. Long reach
    3. Can hit both high and low
    4. High damage
    5. Available in relatively short period of time
    6. Safe on block
    7. Fast (compared to fei's, etc)

    You wanna nitpick the corner pauses of his super? Then you should also point out all the other super's weakness like unsafe on block, cannot easily go thru fb, etc etc.

    Ryu's super is very very good. But dragon punch go right thru it and hit it. Or a good read and you can just get a clean jump in like regular fireball. If I want to nick pick ryu's super? At point blank it won't connect.
    it's not about how the characters stack up and what match is winnable, etc etc, the dissent stems from these two characters being very strong while simultaneously requiring less effort on behalf of the player

    I agree with that (Damdai said similar things)

    For example, boxer's cr. mk meaty is just a crazy good bet. (not to mention it has good priority)

    if they reversal, ok boxer eats a dp.

    if they fail to reversal, you eat cr. mk, cr. mp xx dash lower

    which does CRAZY good damage and knockdown for pushing 2 buttons + a sonic boom motion.

    or if they block, hey, boxer is safe + chip damage to boot.

    The dash punch bait into super, or headbutt thru fb into super are also super easy to do compare to other characters' super setup.

    Whiff dash into throw setup is super easy to do.

    Of course there is also relatively safe on block headbutt that move him forward, and beat every reversal in the game.


    Now don't get me wrong, I was just kidding when I say we should ban boxer (although he is extra good online).

    If I can use a analogy, in a danisen battle, if you use boxer you almost automatically start from dan 5 :) while all the other characters need to struggle from dan 1. And I'm pretty sure that if people do play danisen ranbat on ggpo, there will be a lot of high dan boxers in no time.

    No offense to all the boxer players out there though, I'm sure bhop, ritual, czar fighter can beat me easily with other characters too, I'm just agreeing with jpj and damdai that boxer is kinda easy mode.

    I guess it's inline with the idea that good move should be more difficult to pull off (like 360 spd).

    Maybe if o gat's tiger is a HCF motion, or claw's wall dive always require the guile super motion are enough to even things out.
    nice read, reaffirms a lot of what i've heard from other people from japan regarding the scene over there and how peoples views on certain aspects differ, like komoda being regarded as the best (as opposed to the person with the best winning record - which back then would've probably been otochun or kurahashi)

    Yeah, mostly I enjoy high level flawless / clutch / solid play from a character specialist than just the player who won the most tourney. Komoda, Aniken and Noguchi fei (different person than noguchi claw :) are my kinda guys =]

    Like all I can remember is the two man hawk team's crazy play from x-mania 7. I can't even recall who won the tourney. (Or in fifa world cup, I only remember the impressive goals rather than the overall play by the winning team)

    And I like this quote from Ganelon

    In matches, I like watching match dynamics and clever play, regardless of characters. Sloppiness (of which I'm certainly guilty of) and obvious match unfamiliarity is a pain to see.

    And that's why shiki's boxer is fun to watch ^^
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    @pasky

    Boxer's super is almost the undisputed best super in the game.

    1. A lot of start up invincible frames
    2. Long reach
    3. Can hit both high and low
    4. High damage
    5. Available in relatively short period of time
    6. Safe on block
    7. Fast (compared to fei's, etc)

    You wanna nitpick the corner pauses of his super? Then you should also point out all the other super's weakness like unsafe on block, cannot easily go thru fb, etc etc.

    Ryu's super is very very good. But dragon punch go right thru it and hit it. Or a good read and you can just get a clean jump in like regular fireball. If I want to nick pick ryu's super? At point blank it won't connect.

    Every super in the game has invincibility frames, Most are invulnerable throughout the entire super, boxer's isn't. Jump back + kick beats it for most of the cast if you can predict it coming.

    The reach I'll agree, damage wise, it's about the same as most supers that connect and get full hits. Although boxers is damn good for chip.

    I already agreed with the short period of time, I think this is what makes his super seem broken is because he always seems to have it within no time.

    Safe on block, gonna agree, I hate supers or any specials that are safe on block they should all have risks. All supers are fast...Chun's is pretty quick and also safe on block.

    You can dp rog's super just like Ryu's fire ball. I'll agree its one of the best supers, I just dont think its the super itself that makes it ridiculous, just how fast rog builds meter. So you see it used a lot and since it's safe on block he can just throw it out.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • Seraphin-AngelSeraphin-Angel Joined: Posts: 608
    I heard people complained about srk forum being a unfriendly, unfun place to spend your time online. I was not convinced or bothered by it for a long time.

    But some of you people really make me believe this is indeed the case. There are so many positive things that you can take away from this and yet some of you loved to take all the fun out of it.

    I'm renaming all the titles of these interviews to "Super Street Fighter II Turbo Player Interview". I don't care whether these people ever won EVO or SBO. For me getting to know about them are fun by itself, except if they are jerks to begin with.

    VF4 created cigarbob's thread so I cannot rename his nor I will without consulting his opinion. But whatever guys, if you don't want these I'll just stop. My time are very limited nowadays anyway.


    Dont take into account all these weabos and life trolls , the people that respect and appreciate this interview will take the good benefits from it like I have . please do more!
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Sagat has the second shortest throw range in ST. ...
    I can't believe that you're complaining about O.Sagat when you use Dhalsim, who is generally considered to be a better character than O.Sagat. I've seen more people rate Dhalsim as the best character in the game than I have O.Sagat (Claw as well).

    It's like jpj1983 said, you just get a lot more with easier moves/less effort with those characters. Generally I don't mind if I am Ryu or Dhalsim with that match-up (o.Sagat), but it's sort of like Akuma, most of the players don't take full advantage of what he is able to do. Tokido did like 10 wall dives against Justin Wong recently in some tournament, almost winning in that top 8 match, and the announcers are like "what a great game that was". Great game??

    You've got some good points for overall balance comparisons though, maybe I'll change my mind at some point... for what it's worth, whenever someone picks claw on me I try to pick claw as well so maybe I'll find some weakness that way. His crouching strong punch alone is really good though, and his jumping roundhouse/forward kicks suit his fast walking speed well. So many options, I can't decide which one sometimes.

    As for Sagat's throw range, I doubt most people are taking advantage of the difference unless they are using sim or honda, in actual practice. Sagat's light kicks are pretty good, or standing med to keep them outside.
    it's not about how the characters stack up and what match is winnable, etc etc, the dissent stems from these two characters being very strong while simultaneously requiring less effort on behalf of the player

    nice read, reaffirms a lot of what i've heard from other people from japan regarding the scene over there and how peoples views on certain aspects differ, like komoda being regarded as the best (as opposed to the person with the best winning record - which back then would've probably been otochun or kurahashi)

    Thanks- btw their comment, if I recall was just for those players there at the table or around Tokyo, but there are great players from all over the place, you go into some random arcade out in the middle of nowhere and see some really strong blanka or old fei long player you can hardly manage to get any wins on... Kurahashi is definitely good but I don't think playing at the top levels these days. Otochun is well outside of Tokyo but yeah, he is about as good as it gets and can rip it up with other lower tier characters as well.
    Every super in the game has invincibility frames, Most are invulnerable throughout the entire super, boxer's isn't. Jump back + kick beats it for most of the cast if you can predict it coming.

    You can dp rog's super just like Ryu's fire ball. I'll agree its one of the best supers, I just dont think its the super itself that makes it ridiculous, just how fast rog builds meter. So you see it used a lot and since it's safe on block he can just throw it out.

    Jump back and kick his super, or dp it?? When landing from a jump maybe but on the way up, in actual practice that is probably the worst thing to try to do unless you have no life, and even then... boxer just has this huge hitbox of red, best to block or get the hell over it completely, don't contend with it at all. As Papasi said the ease/risks of boxer's attack with super don't compare too well to the other characters. Next in line would be Fei Long's, Ryu's, then I'd say Chun Li's supers I guess. But Boxer's super is complemented well by his other moves, which can change up speeds and that's really hard to track sometimes with TAPs or rushes.
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    As for Sagat's throw range, I doubt most people are taking advantage of the difference unless they are using sim or honda, in actual practice. Sagat's light kicks are pretty good, or standing med to keep them outside.
    You think Zangief and Hawk players don't tick Sagat out of throw range when they set up for a command throw? Even Taira and Oonish use a trick that ticks O.Sagat just outside of his throw range so that he has to reversal uppercut if he expects a throw. And Blanka and Boxer players can do a throw range trick as well if you know what normals to tick with. This is pretty standard stuff.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    You think Zangief and Hawk players don't tick Sagat out of throw range when they set up for a command throw? Even Taira and Oonish use a trick that ticks O.Sagat just outside of his throw range so that he has to reversal uppercut if he expects a throw. And Blanka and Boxer players can do a throw range trick as well if you know what normals to tick with. This is pretty standard stuff.

    Do people seriously listen to you...?
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    You think Zangief and Hawk players don't tick Sagat out of throw range when they set up for a command throw? Even Taira and Oonish use a trick that ticks O.Sagat just outside of his throw range so that he has to reversal uppercut if he expects a throw. And Blanka and Boxer players can do a throw range trick as well if you know what normals to tick with. This is pretty standard stuff.

    But is that any different for other characters, or just something specific to o.Sagat? If Zangief/Hawk gets that close just about everyone is stuck for the same reason I think, could be wrong but I don't think this is specific to o.Sagat. The hardest thing to deal with is his fast laser speed tiger shots and recovery time, that's my main issue.
  • ultracomboultracombo Weakest Loser Joined: Posts: 741
    If you wanna play theory fighter I guess you could say that Sagat with CE tiger shots and far standing kicks cancels is broken... but would you come to this conclusion without actual matchup knowledge? I'm curious because the Japanese have really only started using O.Sagat for a few years now, and I see matches of top old sagat players like Muneo and Guts losing to lower tiered characters.

    Reading that O.sagat vs gief or even against Chun is 6-4 is really shocking to me. I always thought that both of those matchups were incredibly lopsided but hearing that these matchups aren't that terrible makes me wonder about all the other matchups that people consider unreasonably lopsided. Blanka, Cammy, Ken; I've had people tell me these matchups are 9-1 in Sagat's favor... no joke. Maybe some of you guys are exaggerating a bit? I know Old Sagat is powerful but can we try and be scientific about it and actually play and study the matchups? There isn't that much footage of O.sagat vs lower tiers, I'm guessing because most people didn't even bother to put up with it over all the years of ST. I'm not saying Old Sagat isn't OP I'm just saying we should find out first.
    It's like jpj1983 said, you just get a lot more with easier moves/less effort with those characters.

    Honestly, it doesn't matter if you consider some characters to be easy mode. I think in terms of mind games/ decision making Balrog is definitely the easiest... but nobody wants him banned. His high execution barrier makes him seem difficult to use when that really is not true (this is all imo). But even then It doesn't matter who's hard to use or who's easy to use. In the end what matters is how powerful these characters are in their maximum potential. If you want O.Sagat and Claw banned, then it would make only be right to ban Dhalsim, Balrog and Chun as well. All these characters have a high amount of favorable matchups.

    I don't think it really makes sense to ban 1/4 of the cast. You'd be missing out on N.Dhalsim for one, who I think is a very well designed and fun character (even though he has an easy mode super, noogie loop, and drill game). I think the controllable limbs were an excellent idea. But you gotta keep the other top tiers in to give him some contention.

    All I'm saying is that there are people who like to use O.Sagat, Rog, Claw, Chun, and Sim, so telling half the players that they can use their OP characters while the others can't... makes it seem that you are afraid of the matchups or that you have some sort of superiority complex.

    We all have opinions. I fuckin hate Balrog. But I wouldn't ban him. I'd just complain about him. Which I do (childish I know). But if you wanna use him go ahead.
    "If ultracombo misses a low roundhouse, he is likely to continue doing it." - TheMuffinMan
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    But is that any different for other characters, or just something specific to o.Sagat? If Zangief/Hawk gets that close just about everyone is stuck for the same reason I think, could be wrong but I don't think this is specific to o.Sagat.
    It's the same with every character and not O.Sagat specific (though throwing O.Characters who can't soften throws is an advantage). You'll see Honda and Blanka, and anyone else with a larger throw range than Dictator, constantly getting free throws on him. That's why slide, hold, slide, etc. works on Dictator with Dhalsim. Dhalsim has a larger throw range than Dictator and can repeatedly set up free throws. Just watch any Gian versus Dictator match to see the carnage.

    Dictator has jump short, st.short, throw[/URL] on Guile that is an infinite on O.Guile (or CPSI Guile versions in AE). You can also do j.short, st.strong, throw in the corner. [URL=" , then throw, puts lots of characters out of throw range while simultaneously keeping Dictator in his throw range. It's a neat trick that can dizzy and can be used on many characters without having to have the execution level to pull off Dictator's big four and five hit ToD combos.
    I'm curious because the Japanese have really only started using O.Sagat for a few years now, and I see matches of top old sagat players like Muneo and Guts losing to lower tiered characters.
    The Japanese have been using O.Sagat just as long as any other country has. You can find older O.Sagat footage on YouTube. And Daigo was regularly using O.Sagat in U.S. tournaments. So it's not like Muneo just came out of nowhere, we're just seeing more O.Sagat because we are seeing more match footage period. It's not like years ago when it was EVO DVDs, SBO DVDs, and A-Cho video service and that was all you got all year round.
    Reading that O.sagat vs gief or even against Chun is 6-4 is really shocking to me. I always thought that both of those matchups were incredibly lopsided but hearing that these matchups aren't that terrible makes me wonder about all the other matchups that people consider unreasonably lopsided.
    Chun's Super is very good in that match and she can build meter without having to take too many risks. Her instant overhead is powerful and her throws are absolutely deadly against O.Characters because they do so much damage and cannot be softened. Against O.Characters Chun's throws are practically command throws except you only have to hit forward+punch to execute them. I'll have to dig out my old EVO DVDs to see, but I remember Ohnuki beating a bunch of O.Sagat players in years past. And at EVO2008 it's not like John stomped all over Ohnuki without him getting some wins.



    Watch this set and pay attention to spacing from the corners. Every round that takes place mostly at mid-screen you'll see Muneo win as he can control his opponents distance from him with ease. The rounds where Muneo is cornered, Jodim is always able score heaps of damage almost unchecked, because Muneo has nowhere to retreat and has no breathing room for mistakes.

    Also Kuni at EVO 2004 beat Valle and Justin (O.Sagat) so convincingly with Zangief that when Choi ended up having to face him he switched to Guile (and won). The only video I can see of those on YT is Kuni versus Justin (mislabeled as Valle).

    Blanka, Cammy, Ken; I've had people tell me these matchups are 9-1 in Sagat's favor... no joke. Maybe some of you guys are exaggerating a bit? I know Old Sagat is powerful but can we try and be scientific about it and actually play and study the matchups? There isn't that much footage of O.sagat vs lower tiers, I'm guessing because most people didn't even bother to put up with it over all the years of ST. I'm not saying Old Sagat isn't OP I'm just saying we should find out first.
    O.Sagat wrecks Cammy probably on the same level that Cammy wrecks Hawk. 9-1 is probably not that much of an exaggeration. But yeah, everyone freaks out about O.Sagat, and there are lots of people who perpetuate the myth of him being soft banned in Japan which only contributes to his status as some nearly broken character. O.Sagat was never soft banned in Japan but that myth persisted so long in the U.S. SFII scene that it is almost impossible to debunk at this point. When the hive mind on SRK is constantly saying "O.Sagat is soft banned in Japan because he is too powerful" then it is no wonder that everyone is always placing him as the best character in ST and overrating many of his matches.

    Lastly, I think one of the reasons that ST has stuck around for so long, is because of those powerful characters. O.Sagat and Claw and Boxer and Chun and Dhalsim have such wrecking power that it is exciting to see them just unleash a fury on the rest of the cast. People love seeing huge damage scored in a matter of fractions of a second, mere frames elapse and someone loses 50-80% of his life. You blink and it is over. It's entertaining.

    But it is also exciting, probably more exciting to most players, to see those characters get beaten just the same. People love seeing the underdog come out on top and shutting down a top tier character. People love seeing Honda take out a Shoto or Guile or DJ. People love seeing the O.Hawk team at X-Mania annihilate wave after wave of teams that are composed of better characters. I think even Muteki said that he plays Guile because he likes overcoming the 'impossible' matches because it is more rewarding.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • jpj1983jpj1983 Joined: Posts: 156
    soft-banned is a misleading term, it doesn't mean you can't select that character. why do you think historically that there have been so few top japanese o.sagat players over all these years despite how good he is, or why yaya only plays n.sagat? you mention daigo using o.sagat in american tournaments, and yet he doesn't in japanese tournaments. x-mania 7 had 105 entrants and not a single o.sagat player. etc etc
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    or why yaya only plays n.sagat?

    I've been trying for ever to find where it was that I read that yaya originaly was an o gat player but to many people were bitching that they couldn't beat him so he switched to n gat.


    edit

    lol whats up XSPR.
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • otakugamer223otakugamer223 GGPO scrub Joined: Posts: 286
    great article, informative and helpful!!
    fighting games are fun
  • VirtuaFighterFourVirtuaFighterFour VirtuaFighter.com Joined: Posts: 1,572
    soft-banned is a misleading term, it doesn't mean you can't select that character. why do you think historically that there have been so few top japanese o.sagat players over all these years despite how good he is, or why yaya only plays n.sagat? you mention daigo using o.sagat in american tournaments, and yet he doesn't in japanese tournaments. x-mania 7 had 105 entrants and not a single o.sagat player. etc etc
    Gian said that N.Sagat is just more popular and people prefer him. It had nothing to do with how effective the character was. Look at Japan's HSFII scene, they load tournaments with CE.Characters, including tons of people using CE.Dictator every chance that they could get. And Daigo was using CE.Sagat a lot during AE's big year in Japan but used N.Ryu at EVO2006. O.Sagat is great, but he's not CE.Guile nor CE.Dictator. Lastly, if you ask any Japanese player if they frown on O.Sagat being used, they say 'no', which indicates that a soft ban never existed. There is no evidence of a soft ban in Japan, Ganelon made a post after coming back from SBO2010 talking about how no characters are or were soft banned, it's just a myth that people refuse to let go of for whatever reason.
    VF5:FS - Akira, Jean, Wolf, Taka
    VF4/EVO/FT - Wolf, Akira, Goh, Kage, Jacky
    ST - Dictator, Hawk, Boxer, Honda, O.Hawk, Sagat, Ken, O.Boxer, Claw
    3S - Q, Gouki, Ryu III
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    I think even Muteki said that he plays Guile because he likes overcoming the 'impossible' matches because it is more rewarding.

    VF4, that's great only that we don't live in Japan. Majority people here don't care about that.
    yet he doesn't in japanese tournaments. x-mania 7 had 105 entrants and not a single o.sagat player. etc etc

    jpj, I've been nodding my head to most of your recent posts :tup:

    As ultra said, if we were really going to ban characters, theoretically we should ban characters based on the maximum potential of the character regardless of the execution barrier (which I disagree, execution barrier matters... if claw's dive require guile super motion I think it's great for people who can pull off perfect dives with that motion).

    let's say o sagat and chun are equally strong and are in broken tier. Here's the thing that I have trouble with o sagat, he's fucking boring to watch and gives ST such a bad rep everytime ogat is on stream!

    tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger sweep tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger upper cut tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger st short x2 tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger

    I had heated debate with Roybisel when I was joking that o gat should be banned in US. He said I was trolling and that if o gat should be banned, sim should be too, and refused to listen to what I have to say above.

    And even then, Roybisel himself said o sagat is boring and he mainly uses him in tourney.

    I was watching [media=vimeo]18430319

    and here's what daigo said about Japanese player (can't remember exactly but it's something like this)

    he said that Japanese player play the game because they loved the game (though he said that more japanese players are playing because they want to be famous)

    And in the same interview what mike watsons said about US player? US player plays to win. And that if you lose, doesn't matter how good you play, you lose. And that you shouldn't be friends with your competitors since then you're soft and your chance of winning is lower.

    Which I completely disagree. As I said before, I don't even remember who are the winners of most tournament, but I DO remember outstanding play!

    (same reason why Daigo will be forever more famous than Jeff or Tomo, just because we'll never see much Tomo & Jeff footage but there are plenty of Daigo's and people remember that)

    Most Japanese don't have the same mentality to treat their competition as enemy yet they are top tier in fighting games. You just gotta be focused when you're playing in a tournament.

    Here're more random thoughts:

    bhop told me that he were losing when he was using non top tier characters when he started. Once he switched to boxer he started to win more and more, and he loved winning, so he sticks to boxer. When I joked that he is a tier whore he said with a smile that he also play deejay :)

    czar fighter is a monster with boxer online. His reaction is extremely good. Mind game, spacing, combo he got them all down. I told him he has skills and he should pick up another character like feilong and he would kick ass.

    His answer? Nah, fei long has a lot of bad match up, why waste time?
    BTW I joked with him that when I play his boxer, it's like playing a RPS game and he had two scissor and a rock and I have two paper and a scissor ^^

    Willdestroya... where to start? I asked him why he trolled so much online. He said that he was victim before and I wasn't around to see what people did to him when he started.

    So what is will's main now? He doesn't have one. But here're the characters that he used in tourney - claw, boxer, chun

    Preparing for NEC, Roybisel was practicing online with a new character that he picked up. His new character? Dhalsim. And I shitted my pants when I saw that knowing that he's already a beast with boxer and o sagat.

    I'm not saying that playing to win is not good. It is a GREAT motivation for you to get better at this game. But compared to play the game because you ENJOYED it or LOVED it, its effect is way less powerful.

    Why shirts still hasn't showed up in tourney when ST arcade is back on the scene? Coz he has to practice for 6 months first. Why? Don't you want to play because it's fun?

    Why STP wanted to back out of the tourney after he already paid for it? There is a chance that he wouldn't place high?

    Would watson show up even though he might not win it?

    And finally, why of all og, kuroppi is one of the few that lurks online to play a match here and there when he gets a chance? He also entered SCR but he plays honda and there is very little chance he would win. So what is driving kuroppi to play?

    I think there is a reason why mars is popular. He plays guile with a style.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054

    Why shirts still hasn't showed up in tourney when ST arcade is back on the scene? Coz he has to practice for 6 months first. Why? Don't you want to play because it's fun?

    Why STP wanted to back out of the tourney after he already paid for it? There is a chance that he wouldn't place high?

    You know little to nothing about either one of these players. You haven't the slightest fucking clue what you are talking about. Keep talking about STP especially and I'm gonna really lmao soon. You need to keep other players names out of your mouth. Really man. You are forever quoting someone. When are YOU gonna say something.
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • jpj1983jpj1983 Joined: Posts: 156
    the first time i brought this up you tried saying o.sagat wasn't soft-banned cos you'd seen him being played on youtube or whatever it was you said, and i thought fair enough, "soft-ban" is misleading and you got some other idea for what it means

    but you just can't ignore the fact that one of the strongest characters in the game has historically been so heavily under-represented. and no it doesn't happen in hsf2, or 3S, or whichever games, it's one of these curious things that seems to be exclusive to super turbo. same deal with the recent "ratio" tournaments where the characters were assigned point values

    i dunno how you can look at the biggest ST event in japan during 2006 having 100+ players and no o.sagats and skirt past it so easily, but whatever. i'm talking to a brick wall
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    soft-banned is a misleading term, it doesn't mean you can't select that character. why do you think historically that there have been so few top japanese o.sagat players over all these years despite how good he is, or why yaya only plays n.sagat? you mention daigo using o.sagat in american tournaments, and yet he doesn't in japanese tournaments. x-mania 7 had 105 entrants and not a single o.sagat player. etc etc

    How many n.Sagats have you seen in JP events besides yaya? Sagat just doesn't seem to be a popular character period, perhaps because of his mechanics. It's sort of like inferring (incorrectly) that all o.characters are soft-banned in Japan because they're used so little compared to n.characters.

    If you consider o.Sagat soft-banned in Japan, that's fine, but it's pretty equivalent to saying he's soft-banned here in the US as well, where some players mock the character for being good with relatively simpler tactics but the hatred isn't ubiquitous.

    That said, if we get some firsthand testimony from top JP players, we'll be able to know for sure what the situation is. But as is, there doesn't seem to be proof for soft-bans from what I've seen; repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make something true.
  • jpj1983jpj1983 Joined: Posts: 156
    same event had three n.sagats

    yeah the same attitude towards o.sagat might be repeated in the states, and towards other top tier characters in other fighting games. my point is that it's only in super turbo where those complaints actually translate and are reflected in how often the character(s) are used
  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    That said, if we get some firsthand testimony from top JP players, we'll be able to know for sure what the situation is. But as is, there doesn't seem to be proof for soft-bans from what I've seen; repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make something true.

    The term "soft banned" comes from me. When I lived in Japan, I saw tournament player Yoshimi (ken player, 2nd place at SBO1) make a face when he saw me pick Claw in arcade casuals one day. I asked him what that was about, and he told me that Claw was frowned upon. I pressed him for details, because I'd seen MORE VEGA play Claw all the time at shinjuku MORE arcade. He told me that there was an unwritten rule to not pick Claw or O Sagat. I asked him if that meant they were banned, and he said no.. you could enter with them, but they weren't seen as interesting (The word he used was "omoshirokunai" for those of you that speak japanese)

    Anyways later, I wrote a long post (I thought I wrote it on Shoryuken, but it might have been on agsf2) that was a brain dump of a lot of things known in Japan but not generally known on srk at the time. They included:
    * explanation of safe jumps
    * T Hawk's negative typhoon select
    * Ken's knee bash trap
    * Soft bans

    I introduced the term soft-ban as an analogy in english. Everything Yoshimi told me was in Japanese so this was a term I made up.

    It's annoying that I can't seem to find this post anywhere :(

    Anyways, that's where the term come from. It comes from an american player who was explaning the situation in Japan to other american players. I will also note that I personally saw this after Yoshimi told me about it. I went to many ST tournaments in Japan, and Claw and O Sagat were very rare. I picked up on the vibe .. I picked Claw once at one of them, won the tournament, and then never picked him again in a tourney in Japan.
    In fact the first tournament O Sagat I saw was at an SBO qualifier who rumor had it was going to be Daigo's partner! I was very suprised to hear this, suprised enough to ask other players what was going on. I was told something along the lines of "Sagat is discouraged, but yes, he can pick him if it wants."

    I'm not sure there's a cultural equivalent or direct translation in the US, because US players have a different mentality and culture. A soft ban wouln't work here.. we're very much "Is it in or is it out?". This group dynamic towards those characters is a very Japanese thing. "Soft ban" is the term I used to mean all of that in shorthand.

    Hope that clears up the situation.

    PS: On a random note, while looking for that post above, I found that the term "demon flip" comes from me. First usage I see of it on the net is this:
    Tokyo A3 exhibition and ST [Report] - alt.games.sf2 | Google Groups
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
    http://tea-hawk.blogspot.com

    SF2 Code v1.0: t+ c+ T+ r+(-) f g+ m+ s+ v+ M+(-) n+:++ o+ (av by Tat Guy)
    http://web.archive.org/web/19970219205915/hannibal.mit.edu/things/sf2/sf2code.txt
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    [02:11:26 p.m.] djfrijoles: hello
    [02:11:28 p.m.] djfrijoles: neo
    [02:11:31 p.m.] djfrijoles: I have a question
    [02:11:44 p.m.] djfrijoles: Is super sagat banned in japan arcades ?
    [02:11:54 p.m.] djfrijoles: or was he banned at one time ?
    [02:12:15 p.m.] djfrijoles: Do people get offended or mad if the opponent picks super sagat ?
    [05:02:26 p.m.] u: no
    [05:02:40 p.m.] u: be not banned
    [05:03:24 p.m.] djfrijoles: do players get mad if you pick him ?
    [05:03:32 p.m.] u: no
    [05:03:35 p.m.] djfrijoles: never ?
    [05:03:41 p.m.] djfrijoles: not even long time ago
    [05:03:57 p.m.] djfrijoles: is there a lot of super sagat players in japan ?
    [05:04:22 p.m.] djfrijoles: was yaya a super sagat player before?
    [05:04:28 p.m.] djfrijoles: we have a discussion on srk about this
    [05:04:47 p.m.] djfrijoles: America thinks super sagat is banned or soft banned
    [05:04:53 p.m.] u: he doesnt use super sagat
    [05:05:03 p.m.] djfrijoles: never used super sagat
    [05:05:09 p.m.] djfrijoles: ok
    [05:07:15 p.m.] djfrijoles: what about claw ?
    [05:07:20 p.m.] djfrijoles: never banned ?
    [05:08:57 p.m.] u: many players use claw lol
    [05:09:12 p.m.] u: never banned
    [05:09:20 p.m.] djfrijoles: no cares about hui ball ???
    [05:09:31 p.m.] djfrijoles: no one cares about hiu ball ?
    [05:09:43 p.m.] djfrijoles: repeat repeat repeat ?
    [05:10:04 p.m.] u: what is the hiu ball ?
    [05:10:08 p.m.] djfrijoles: LOL
    [05:10:12 p.m.] djfrijoles: claw dive
    [05:10:15 p.m.] djfrijoles: oops
    [05:10:17 p.m.] u: aa
    [05:10:23 p.m.] djfrijoles: i thought it was called hiu ball
    [05:10:40 p.m.] u: every claw user do
    [05:10:47 p.m.] djfrijoles: lol ok thank you
    [05:11:07 p.m.] u: t.hawk doesnt like claw
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    "It's not interesting", but that does seem like a very Japanese thing. Heard a few stories where Japanese employers won't actually fire people, they'll just put them in a dead end position with no hope for growth until the person quits the job themselves.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    The term "soft banned" comes from me.

    Yeah, zass, your topic was here: http://shoryuken.com/f2/war-stories-japan-130492/

    I wasn't actually aware you coined that term so that's a nice bit of history. So in your opinion, would o.Sagat, claw, and perhaps boxer and others be considered soft-banned in the US as well now then? I mean, if I'm playing claw against damdai, he'll also make a face and tell me that claw is seen as uninteresting (in stronger terms of course).

    And what do you think about quite a few claw players in JP casuals and tourneys nowadays? Are the standards different or do different people/areas have different standards?
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    6:40 PM
    yea
    6:40 PM
    or not fun works
    6:40 PM
    omoshiroi can be loosely translated as fun
    6:40 PM
    in some intstances
    6:40 PM
    instances
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    I haven't spent an extended amount of time in Japan like Zass for example but I've been there on a few occasions and I remember when I was there for SBO, a lot of ST players were out practicing the week before and MORE VEGA would get on a machine and none of the Japanese players would play against him. He was only playing against American players or the CPU.
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    That was back in 2003, right? What I wonder is: was it just a More Balrog thing (who was apparently also shunned as a person) or was there something against playing any claw? For example, NKI spoke of Noguchi's claw but never mentioned whether he was similarly ignored. Nobody minded playing Noguchi in casuals for SBO practice from what I saw last year.

    But like I mentioned in my SBO topic, somebody picked Gouki while John Rambo was playing and everybody refused to play against him as he beat the AI.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    ^^^ lol, Ronry claw player.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
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  • jpj1983jpj1983 Joined: Posts: 156
    if damdai gives you a look or not and you still pick claw nothing has changed though. i didn't watch all the matches, but didn't nashville quals have less than two dozen people, but multiple claw, o.sagat, and boxer? if they're derided by some but people still play them frequently, then it's not the same thing

    yeah it's definitely a cultural thing that doesn't translate. and it's bad etiquette to actually complain verbally about another person's character choice over there. it's more that if you win with those characters, no one's really gonna give a shit

    did you see/play many o.sagat's kuroppi?

    there's a big gap in time from when those guys were there and when you were there G. just basing this from archived tournament footage, but while o.sagat use is still quite scarce, there seems to have been more of it from 2008/9 onwards than there was through the early & mid 2000's.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    @dj. duly noted. I was just asking the questions and pointing out the cultural differences. Shirts mentioned that he likes playing new players and loves the competition aspect of fighting games. He challenged Snakes Eyez but his match vs SE is way overdue.

    lol @ ganelon regrets picking claw as his main.

    It's ok gan, I won't frown upon you when you pick claw. I'll just concede the match :)

    Seriously though, you're one of those that spent the time to master claw, know the match dynamics and there is no sloppiness in your play. Same respect to all boxer, sagat and sim players that spent the time to master the characters, instead of just picking them because it's a easy win.

    Also thanks for the link to War Stories from Japan. Nice read.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    stuff that shows djdaumbassjoles is an idiot


    lol fuck you for making me feel bad lol. Damn man. Damn. Im an idiot. I apologize.


    edit:

    fuck man I keep reading your post and I feel worse
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    no worries frijoles, papasi IS a huge idiot if it makes you feel better.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    That was back in 2003, right? What I wonder is: was it just a More Balrog thing (who was apparently also shunned as a person) or was there something against playing any claw? For example, NKI spoke of Noguchi's claw but never mentioned whether he was similarly ignored. Nobody minded playing Noguchi in casuals for SBO practice from what I saw last year.

    But like I mentioned in my SBO topic, somebody picked Gouki while John Rambo was playing and everybody refused to play against him as he beat the AI.

    Yes, that was 2003 so it was a while ago and views could have certainly shifted by now.

    I think I did ask Kuni about if it was a MORE Vega (Balrog) thing or Claw thing but honestly I don't remember what he said. I'll have to ask him again the next time I talk to him.

    Personally, I've always disliked the character design of Claw because his extreme freedom of movement goes against the very calcuated and precision spacing that defined Street Fighter II. Having a character with such a different playstyle isn't a bad thing in itself but I think he needed more penalties for having such an advantage in that area.

    However, I will say this to the Claw/O Sagat haters, no matter your feelings towards them, they're not unbeatable and one still has to dedicate the time and effort into mastering them if you want to beat the best, just like you would with any character in the game. So if they're so easy to use, show us how it's done.

    Anyway, I've always gotten this vibe from others and I'll make a sports analogy: Look at the MLB and how baseball fans in general have a little bit of a dislike or disrespect for teams like the Yankees or the Red Sox because of the competitive advantage those teams have due to how the revenue works in baseball. They don't win the World Series every year so it's not that those teams are unbeatable but I think fans would prefer to see a more even playing field, such as the NFL has.

    In the world of Street Fighter, I think the Yankees and Red Sox are Claw and O Sagat.
    did you see/play many o.sagat's kuroppi?

    there's a big gap in time from when those guys were there and when you were there G. just basing this from archived tournament footage, but while o.sagat use is still quite scarce, there seems to have been more of it from 2008/9 onwards than there was through the early & mid 2000's.

    When I was there, I didn't see any O Sagats and if I remember correctly, maybe one other Claw player outside of MORE Vega.
    Shhh... ST in da house!

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  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Just as a side note, it reads turbo 2 (US/World turbo 1) above the KO symbol on that video. Also, in Thnderbeast Cup and a few other events, I have noticed players would often select speed values other than 3 (US/World turbo 2). A few (if not many) have chosen turbo 1, which would be the slowest speed on World/US board, slower than the ones available when "free select" is enabled.
  • jpj1983jpj1983 Joined: Posts: 156
    Just as a side note, it reads turbo 2 (US/World turbo 1) above the KO symbol on that video. Also, in Thnderbeast Cup and a few other events, I have noticed players would often select speed values other than 3 (US/World turbo 2). A few (if not many) have chosen turbo 1, which would be the slowest speed on World/US board, slower than the ones available when "free select" is enabled.

    ^ what about it? :confused:
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Well, that it does not seem that there is a strong speed standard at all around there. SBO and a few tournaments have it fixed, but many others leave it to the players.

    Edit: check this thread.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    All the arcades, the danisen events, and most tourneys are set at fixed T3. There are a scattering of free select tourneys where you get the choice of side or speed (where Dhalsim players normally love JP T1) but that's not the norm.
  • FulaaniFulaani Of terrorist descent Joined: Posts: 2,555
    or they play RPS and the winner gets to pick either side or speed.
    zoning took an indefinite hiatus
  • jpj1983jpj1983 Joined: Posts: 156
    sorry that was my mistake, turbo 3 is the most common for events but not all. i've seen some japanese matches played on turbo 4 as well
  • CorrosiveCorrosive The Starting Over Joined: Posts: 1,352
    or they play RPS and the winner gets to pick either side or speed.

    I'm sure you'd agree with me that that's not real RPS.
    It's best that you remain close to the "Ls", Joe.
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