Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Player Interview with David Boudreau aka XSPR from Japan

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Comments

  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    Yeah, zass, your topic was here: http://shoryuken.com/f2/war-stories-japan-130492/

    That's not the one I'm talking about. I wrote what you linked after I moved back to the US. What I'm talking about I wrote while I was still in Japan. There was something wierd about that post since on the post, while the author was "Zass" it didn't link to my profile. I think that post got eaten when the forums were upgraded (from forums.shoryuken.com to shoryuken.com/f222).

    I wasn't actually aware you coined that term so that's a nice bit of history. So in your opinion, would o.Sagat, claw, and perhaps boxer and others be considered soft-banned in the US as well now then? I mean, if I'm playing claw against damdai, he'll also make a face and tell me that claw is seen as uninteresting (in stronger terms of course).

    No, I would not say that those characters are soft banned in the US at all.
    As an example, the last ST tournament I played was Ghaleon's side tourney at Evo where you and I took 2nd and 3rd respectively. You played claw the whole time and I played boxer/claw. That's a great example of Claw being a tournament staple. (And PS: Where are the vids from that tournament? There were some great matches and we need more US ST footage in general. Anyone?)

    It's not about whether one or two players make a face, it's whether or not in general the community has a tacit agreement to not play those characters.

    And what do you think about quite a few claw players in JP casuals and tourneys nowadays? Are the standards different or do different people/areas have different standards?

    That's a good question, and I don't know the answer. When I lived in Japan, it was before youtube and the explosion of japanese videos. And again, I *did* pick Claw in a tournment, won it, and nobody made a face. Then again as a hairy barbarian I could have probably gotten away with picking shin-akuma too.
    And I did see other claws at tournaments. I saw MORE Vega at an SBO qual, he did quite well (although there was almost no applause when he won). And as I mentioned in my other post, there was an O Sagat as Daigo's partner. But those characters were rare compared to other tournament staples such as Ryu, Boxer, Guile, Chun, Dhalsim... etc.

    So the answer is I don't know. Maybe attitudes have changed, or maybe it's still there We have american players living in Japan now, maybe a player living there now could ask and give us an answer?

    I will say this. I found Japanese ST to be a much more pleasurable environment because of the lack of Claw/O Sagat. I agree with Yoshimi that the game is more interesting and fun without those characters.
    Don't get me wrong. Claw is my oldest main. I'll play him in US ST to win anytime. But the *environment* is just much more fun without them imho.
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
    http://tea-hawk.blogspot.com

    SF2 Code v1.0: t+ c+ T+ r+(-) f g+ m+ s+ v+ M+(-) n+:++ o+ (av by Tat Guy)
    http://web.archive.org/web/19970219205915/hannibal.mit.edu/things/sf2/sf2code.txt
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Yeah, that topic must have got sucked out in one of the migrations. You had a topic on agsf2 that covered early experiences in Japan years back: Tokyo A3 exhibition and ST [Report] - alt.games.sf2 | Google Groups

    It's not the one you're referring to here but someone here might find it an interesting read. A pity it's not one of the topics XSPR commented on.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Yeah Zass definitely has great stories- I'd have commented more about A3 but thought it a more dead game and ppl'd be more interested in ST. That game was so complex.

    Anniversary Edition/Hyper came out just after Kuroppi was here, and that game can be found probably more often in arcades now than ST (operators dropped a lot more money to get that game than the price of an old ST board). People pick CE characters pretty soon in that game at one point or another (at least in Tokyo, but everywhere else I imagine too). Not just CE dictator, but others too like Ryu, Guile and other CE chars. Daigo didn't chose o.Sagat but he DID choose CE Sagat at his last entry, mostly to counter CE Guiles, which were getting really really popular at the time. It may be similar now where, you have this situation that claw might not be as bad as CE this or CE that, but it's like, I think I know enough about AE now that CE chars are better than ST, so I don't need to PAY money at the arcade just to be challenged and lose to them, and the only reason I would would be to play CE again but I prefer ST. Last time I played that in an arcade, this guy was playing CE Dictator and I was like fuck it, I'll play Akuma. I played that guy like 10 or 15 games and I didn't win one.

    With o.Sagat, I hardly see him but do sometimes every now and then, basically like Zass and Kuroppi described. You can pick him or claw but it's like, are you trying to impress people with 10 wall dives in a row, sorry, not impressed. Muneo wasn't losing to Zangief, he was losing to Nogyo, and won just about as much in that link, and of the rounds Muneo lost as o.Sagat, those were CLOSE rounds- even when backed into a corner he had counters, it was more of a mind game at that point, and gief had to work to get in that close. Nogyo doing a lariat for each of those low tigers, now how many Zangief players are THAT consistent in the US?

    The reason I put o.Sagat and Claw into the ugly category of "possibly banned, not gonna lose any sleep over it" is because I see their tactics as not only easy to do but you can even see it coming and the block (let alone the counter) is difficult. With a fireball trap, you have to set up the spacing distance JUST right, time your fb's JUST at the moment you are able to, AND outguess the trapped opponent to do a FAST one when he expects another SLOW one, ALL of those things. And when you're fb trapped, you can block it, that's the thing, just hold the stick back, and you still get to play the mind game of, "when is the fast one coming?". But a wall dive can be done on an opponent anywhere, not just the corner, in fact as DGV said the corner is the one place you're relatively safe because you cut down the ambiguity aspect, so at least you can then block it (and only have to deal with other corner traps of claw, you're out of the fire, into the frying pan). Dhalsim doesn't have his speed, only his reach (a bit better) but not his strength. Dhalsim has to get his reads right a LOT more than any other character.

    "Soft ban" term: For what it's worth, Sirlin said something effectively similar about A2 Chun Li during the A2 days, that of the top California players, everybody (or almost everybody) hated Chun Li, so in big tournaments you didn't find too many Chun Li's in the top 8 but I think quite a few at the start/mid sets of brackets. Zass was the best if not one of the best Chun Li's in that game in the US I think but few others at his level and above chose Chun Li so I think that's kind of like a "soft ban" in the US, would you agree Zass? What about SF3:3S and Chun Li, similar?

    I don't ever recall selecting my the game speed or someone setting a speed in a tournament here so definitely not the norm (if I did have the option, I'd set it to standard speed, whatever most ppl'd agree on as standard speed).
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    btw as a reward to all the people that check this thread, the one all about me, XSPR, I think I'll be the first one on srk to post this for you guys:

    Sega Installs ?Toylet? Games in Japan?s Urinals | GameLife | Wired.com

    I gotta try that out next time I'm there. I'll have to be sure and prepare by drinking a lot of caffeinated beverages so I can piss like a race horse right before I start.
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    btw as a reward to all the people that check this thread, the one all about me, XSPR, I think I'll be the first one on srk to post this for you guys:

    Sega Installs ?Toylet? Games in Japan?s Urinals | GameLife | Wired.com

    I gotta try that out next time I'm there. I'll have to be sure and prepare by drinking a lot of caffeinated beverages so I can piss like a race horse right before I start.

    LOL! That's awesome.
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    "Soft ban" term: For what it's worth, Sirlin said something effectively similar about A2 Chun Li during the A2 days, that of the top California players, everybody (or almost everybody) hated Chun Li, so in big tournaments you didn't find too many Chun Li's in the top 8 but I think quite a few at the start/mid sets of brackets. Zass was the best if not one of the best Chun Li's in that game in the US I think but few others at his level and above chose Chun Li so I think that's kind of like a "soft ban" in the US, would you agree Zass? What about SF3:3S and Chun Li, similar?

    I didn't see anything like that in A2 in the US.
    If we take the two biggest A2 US tournaments, looking at chun li usage we have:
    B3 Report (Part II) - alt.games.sf2 | Google Groups
    Chun li in 5th place (Rich Koven)
    Chun li in 9th place (Graham Wolfe)

    *Note that I played Sodom at B3.. so I didn't play chun in that tournament.

    I don't recall the others (Did Thao who tied for 7th play Chun Li?), but that's at least two if not three in the top 12.

    Then at B2
    Official B2 report - alt.games.sf2 | Google Groups

    We have
    Chun Li in 3rd place (Zass)
    Chun Li in 4th place (Eddie Chung)
    Chun Li in 5th place (Peter Ree)

    There's other names in the top 12 I don't remember the others but there may have been chuns.

    That's the big tournaments. I also went to smaller tournaments where I saw Chun Lis.

    I saw lots of Chun Lis all the time in A2 in the USA. So I wouldn't say it was like a soft ban at all.
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
    http://tea-hawk.blogspot.com

    SF2 Code v1.0: t+ c+ T+ r+(-) f g+ m+ s+ v+ M+(-) n+:++ o+ (av by Tat Guy)
    http://web.archive.org/web/19970219205915/hannibal.mit.edu/things/sf2/sf2code.txt
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    How about 1/2 a Sagat for Evo2k10 SSF4 semi-finals (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2010/jul/09/evo-2010-live-stream/) at the largest SSF4 tourney ever? Isn't that a non-existent soft-ban of sorts that just so happens to involve the same character at the same top tier level?

    Someone in Japan may see the comments some US folks say about Sagat being good in an easy way, look at our results, and accidentally add 2 and 2 whereas in actuality, most players here don't like playing as Sagat and/or don't think it's as competitively advantageous to do so.
  • geogeo Official Contrarian Joined: Posts: 1,291
    I will say this. I found Japanese ST to be a much more pleasurable environment because of the lack of Claw/O Sagat. I agree with Yoshimi that the game is more interesting and fun without those characters.
    Don't get me wrong. Claw is my oldest main. I'll play him in US ST to win anytime. But the *environment* is just much more fun without them imho.

    God bless you. Here's an idea, how about ST tournaments with a ban on Claw and O.Sagat? But of course it could never happen. How sad.
    Just one example of ST fundamentalism on dontblowthis.com: "HDR is just another game with no relation to the Street Fighter II series" - riz0ne
  • krknightkrknight Joined: Posts: 1,743
    or you can have all o sagats and claws in the same pool and put them in their own corner.
  • ultracomboultracombo Weakest Loser Joined: Posts: 741
    God bless you. Here's an idea, how about ST tournaments with a ban on Claw and O.Sagat? But of course it could never happen. How sad.

    But Dhalsim and rog are totally OK? Who's gonna counter sim?
    or you can have all o sagats and claws in the same pool and put them in their own corner.

    lol @ superiority complexes and discrimination from other people who use top tiers
    "If ultracombo misses a low roundhouse, he is likely to continue doing it." - TheMuffinMan
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    You guys are worse than the Smash scene.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • krknightkrknight Joined: Posts: 1,743


    lol @ superiority complexes and discrimination from other people who use top tiers

    you laugh here and then call me a dick...
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    But Dhalsim and rog are totally OK? Who's gonna counter sim?

    Me. I'll pick Ryu and beat other people that play Dhalsim. Because Dhalsim is slow and has to hit people about two to three times as much as other characters do, and he has no wake-up attack.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    [snip]
    Chun Li is powerful esp when you have her beat by almost half her lifebar, but you know you can't rest because in a couple seconds, two fast walk up throws can win her the round.
    [snip]

    ... Or a mashed out super + upkicks

    guilty as charged. =)
    [snip]
    lol @ ganelon regrets picking claw as his main.

    It's ok gan, I won't frown upon you when you pick claw. I'll just concede the match :)

    [snip]

    Did he say that...? Even jokingly...? I didn't catch it.

    For the record I have a lot of respect for Ganelon's claw. When I watch him play, it feels like his victories are clean and fair. I can't say that for certain players of lower tier characters...
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • jdmjdm skillz Joined: Posts: 178
    That was a good read. Good looking out papasi.
    GGPO: jdmskillz

    Super Turbo all day.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I have invented a time machine. (Sorry to upstage all the Higgs boson physicists!) I don't want to make a new thread for this, but since it's one of my noted accomplishments, I'll just write it up here.

    I thought about going back in time and preventing the financial crisis, but figured I should do something really important instead; I will go back in time to write the Controlling Space paper before Seth Killian, so that the FGC will have this valued resource all the sooner.

    I think it's great to have someone like Seth, an FGC insider, work in the industry for companies like Capcom because he understands the customer and has been able to represent our interests well. Inkblot wrote up a nice summary of Seth's service to the FGC recently (http://shoryuken.com/2012/06/30/thanks-seth-more-than-a-community-manager/). I'm very happy to make myself a small part of all those valued achievements.

    To show my gratitude, I will be sure to make my own version of the Controlling Space paper, and be overly verbose instead of just copying and pasting Seth's version. Seth's version reads well, and as anyone that knows my writing online knows, I can certainly be verbose! As Seth said at the top of (what will soon be) my paper, "innovating is best". ""Stealing"" is not quite the same, but I really doubt Seth or Inkblot will have a problem with any of this.

    XSPR
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Ok now that EVO 2012 is done, I'll go into a little more of my time travels. I am back from the past and have set history straight, however I'm going to need YOU to help, ah, what's that phrase? "Keep it real". When you see the proof that my time machine works, please go to the Controlling Space thread and click "Like" on my post there at the bottom (mrdhalsim).

    Here is the proof- it's a bunch of reading, with other unrelated stuff included to make it mesh well with the universe and avoid potential calamities, however, buried somewhere in my verbose writing is nested the essence of controlling space and where Seth clearly got his inspiration. Apparently, in some timewarp factor incident during my travel, Seth and Ponder (Inkblot's twin brother) commented on it themselves in some rare spin of cosmic justice or something- still workin out the calculations for all that, not sure how it happened exactly yet, but in any case you can see what they say. Or, should I say, have already said. btw Ponder kinda counts as Inkblot himself, because you know they probably have some genius twin power activation where Ponder wrote it on his computer and like, in some other location, Inkblot gets the spider sense and looks up like "huh? I just got this strange feeling like someone just wrote the basis for a thesis on the fundamental fighting game strategy that people will refer to again and again." Here it is: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/alt.games.sf2/N5JPN7DF0hU
    Ok so read all that, or just the parts about controlling space, and Seth's comments. THEN go to the modern day Controlling Space thread, and see MY comment (mrdhalsim, which should be all the way at the bottom) and click LIKE on it: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/controlling-space.1816/#post-7177868

    This will demonstrate to the world that the real is something that, above all, must be KEPT.

    XSPR
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Well, I can barely understand his examples since I do not play Marvel. He did not mention DPing limbs, I think. Anyway, not a very good article, IMO.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I don't remember which thread my original discussion with XSPR over the relative strength of competitive scenes took place in but I just wanted to note here that based on Evo 2012 results where MAO and Kusumondo dominated, I have to agree that the top active JP players are currently noticeably stronger than the top active US players.

    That's not to say I was wrong about the one-on-one win record being fairly close before—after all, Kusumondo had come here before and gotten taken out by Alex Valle and John Choi on the DC version of ST with 0-1 frame input lag—but the US-JP tourney win record slanted substantially towards the JP side after this last tourney. Yes, we can win sometimes against rusty players and/or in favorable matchups, but we can't currently match the highest level active Japanese players on a consistent level equivalent to their best players using the same characters.

    It's going to be tough to remedy this situation in the US with players so spread out, few specialists to really unlock a character's potential, and reliance on online play (which has different timing) compared to Japan, but I hope folks here are motivated to do their best. After all, there's always another year to shift the tide. As of now though, I'm with XSPR that we have some catching up to do.
  • SorwahSorwah Joined: Posts: 889
    XSPR and Ganelon have helped me in the past with my ST game, although I wish I could get the time to play it more. GGPO is a hit or miss for me.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I don't remember which thread my original discussion with XSPR over the relative strength of competitive scenes took place in but I just wanted to note here that based on Evo 2012 results where MAO and Kusumondo dominated, I have to agree that the top active JP players are currently noticeably stronger than the top active US players.

    Thanks Ganelon. Even for the one-on-one metric, I think there's a common tendency for people to just focus on the best players at the top and forget or not even realize that there are many, many other great Japanese players as well that just don't get mentioned and you don't really hear about but I'd say are still above the best anywhere else. For example, the US team came to SBO last year and continued the trend. You guys got to play the best of the best while visiting Japan. I met up with 2/3rds of the US Team (I think your flight left before we had a chance to meet up) and vs. RizOne, never lost, and won the set vs. Damdai. (Nohoho gave me the most losses by far, either by your metric of one-on-one or otherwise). Did they travel all the way to Japan just to play and try to beat me? No way, and I'm happy for them and you to have played so many top Japanese masters. However when I show up to a major ST tournament here like a Gian Recital, I am easily one of the worst players. There are tons of players that can beat me here, yet most of those guys wouldn't even be recognized by those outside Japan as "top" players or easily overlooked compared to best-of-the-best (usually because they simply never heard of them or ever saw them). So if I can do well in the metric of one-to-one with Team US, and I'm no where near best-of-the-best, that casts doubt at the very least wouldn't you say?

    The Fresh Prince thought he could beat Mike Tyson. Just because there was an actual match with the Fresh Prince and Mike Tyson, that does not mean that the Fresh Prince would beat the next-best-guy under Mike Tyson. Or the 438th best person under Mike Tyson for that matter. And a lot of the time we're talking, Mike Tyson is actually the spindly guy who's punching way above his weight class, e.g. Honda winning vs. DGV, Damdai, Afro Legends, with a hernia, not some Dhalsim/Ryu player like myself picking on dictator and Hawk.

    And sim does have an "actual" divekick compared to claw, however much slower it is, I can't deny that. Sim also beats almost everybody/has few bad matchups if any besides claw. For these reasons I have always been the first to admit my wins with sim are not nearly as impressive as with other characters. I see it more as, I was able to use the strengths and keep them out. But if I lose with sim esp lopsided matchups like vs. guile, I consider that a big win for them. Or even a claw player if he can get 5 or 6 Reversal throws in a row out of say short slide noogie. But in any case, I've been thinking about how to quantify my complaint and take a close look at the wall dive in TRUST. As a claw player you can help me... the wall dive esp far wall should be a 50/50 mixup to block right? Please help me illustrate a scenario using scripts and frame advance that there is no possible way whatsoever that the ambiguity is unblockable. I.e. a scenario where the wall dive is as close to the center pixel he needs to be, and then repeated from the same savestate but one frame different direction where it's one pixel the _other_ way or as close as possible. (Actually you have to already be blocking it when Vega's really high in the air, so the decision of which way to block is already made but please help me rule out it being unblockable basically.)
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Almost a year to the day from my time traveling, and for some strange reason I still see all this "by Seth Killian" stuff around the Controlling Space paper, instead of, "by XSPR/mrdhalsim" http://shoryuken.com/2013/07/24/domination-101-controlling-space/
    mrdhalsim wrote: »
    Ok now that EVO 2012 is done, I'll go into a little more of my time travels. I am back from the past and have set history straight, however I'm going to need YOU to help, ah, what's that phrase? "Keep it real". When you see the proof that my time machine works, please go to the Controlling Space thread and click "Like" on my post there at the bottom (mrdhalsim).

    Here is the proof- it's a bunch of reading, with other unrelated stuff included to make it mesh well with the universe and avoid potential calamities, however, buried somewhere in my verbose writing is nested the essence of controlling space and where Seth clearly got his inspiration. Apparently, in some timewarp factor incident during my travel, Seth and Ponder (Inkblot's twin brother) commented on it themselves in some rare spin of cosmic justice or something- still workin out the calculations for all that, not sure how it happened exactly yet, but in any case you can see what they say. Or, should I say, have already said. btw Ponder kinda counts as Inkblot himself, because you know they probably have some genius twin power activation where Ponder wrote it on his computer and like, in some other location, Inkblot gets the spider sense and looks up like "huh? I just got this strange feeling like someone just wrote the basis for a thesis on the fundamental fighting game strategy that people will refer to again and again." Here it is: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/alt.games.sf2/N5JPN7DF0hU
    Ok so read all that, or just the parts about controlling space, and Seth's comments. THEN go to the modern day Controlling Space thread, and see MY comment (mrdhalsim, which should be all the way at the bottom) and click LIKE on it: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/controlling-space.1816/#post-7177868

    This will demonstrate to the world that the real is something that, above all, must be KEPT.

    XSPR

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