Three Mysteries

mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
I met up with some friends last week to play at an arcade. T.Akiba was there and I was trying to think of some questions to ask him. Later, VF4 mentioned these mysteries, below. I'm still waiting to get a reply with more info/answers from him, particularly about the third mystery but I have some insight now to the first two from other knowledgeable players:

1. VIPER is able to get T.Hawk to do a whiffed standing strong (mid-punch), then 720 super:

I'm told this is harder than whiffed standing jab->super, and also that he seems to take a lot of steps between the time the standing mid-punch finishes and the super begins. I guess this is something even NeoRay will tell you is difficult.

VIPER did this in a tournament, no less. This is probably the most impressive thing about it, because I'm told that while it is very difficult, it is not impossible. When the standing mid-punch is coming out, the first rotation is done, starting at the towards direction, circling around to down, to back, to up, around to towards again. The standing mid-punch finishes at this point. We're in the walking towards position on the stick, but still have another rotation to complete the super, and as you can see the super doesn't come out right away as he steps closer. So continue circling the stick to down, back and up+P (any punch, the frame limitations should be the same for all three punch buttons for T.Hawk's super) before he jumps off the ground. With VIPER's amazing Execution, he is able to get the super out instead of jumping. To put some numbers with it, you've got about 14 frames with new T.Hawk to remain in that walking-towards position before it will stop counting that input towards his super's input requirement. That amount of time is slightly less than a quarter of a second. VIPER is stretching the limit, yet manages to get it out. In a tournament, no less.

I haven't tested this out myself, and I just hope I translated the answer I got correctly. Oh-- one other thing I just noticed, his opponent is Zangief, and it looks like the standing mid-punch barely whiffs (from getting blocked/hitting) Zangief. I just now wondered if that may have something to do with it? or the opponent doesn't matter (maybe if opponent blocks/reels back from hit it can't work on other chars)?

2. Here is a big mystery:


How is Boxer able to get out a headbutt from a standing position like that?

Michael Sandel has described philosophy as making what seems familiar to us, unfamiliar. We come across something we know well, but come to see it in a new way, and suddenly we feel like we don't know it so well anymore. After that point of discovery, it's never quite the same again, either. This phenomenon is thick with irony.

Haven't we seen something like it before, in all our years playing ST? This footage is also from a tournament, so it's not likely turbos/rapid fire buttons would be involved, as it looks like those fast jabs probably have something to do with it. I'm told that it's been tried with turbo/rapid fire buttons, even at various speed frequency settings.

Anyway, I'm still not sure I understand the answer that I got today, myself, and not sure if its been verified since I asked it, but I'm told we have seen something like it at work with another character: Guile. I'm told that boxer's repeated jabs are renda canceled while the headbutt is stored. Guile can do something similar with his standing light kick before a flash kick (in fact he can also tack on a standing punch as well before the flash kick comes out can't he?). Or his sonic boom, for that matter. I don't have a stick w/rapid fire buttons to test this myself, and I personally am not able to reproduce it if I'm to press buttons that fast with either Guile or boxer. However, at least I now have two possible scenarios in mind for how it may be done. One is that you start the standing jabs, THEN charge down. Another way would be to try charging down first, then go immediately to UP on the stick but interrupt it with rapid jabs "on the way up". That is, if it's possible to stay on the ground, hold up while jabbing really fast.

3. This is a case where a combo is in the game, at least we've seen it done, but I'm told it's very very difficult to get ONLY 4 hits this way using Dictator:
- d-f.zip - Kimoyan [Kimomaru

Yes, Dictator's similar 5-hit combo involves more hits, meaning more damage on the opponent's lifebar, and is easier so therefore much more practical in a real match or tournament. But we are not playing Marvel Vs. games here! You will impress the best players more if you can manage to pull off the 4-hit version instead, at least with any kind of consistency. From the footage, it's evidently possible but can anyone get this with better than 2% consistency? I'm still waiting for an answer on this.

XSPR

Comments

  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    1. You're thinking about it too hard. The method you described works but makes the motion unnecessarily complex. T.Hawk can integrate the full super motion directly within the whiff s.MP. There's far more than enough leniency during the whiff for you to perform the 720 motion.

    The difficulty here is in doing the motion late enough (or spread out enough) into the whiff so that you have enough time to walk forward afterward. You can quickly do a 720 as the whiff is ending or slowly do a 720 throughout the whiff (like you mentioned, about 14 frames of leniency between directions and no jump animation to worry about) as long as you time the 720 motion to finish as the whiff finish.

    T.Hawk has about 15 frames after his last input of the 720 to press P so that gives some time to move forward after the c.MP and then just press/release P to super. If you did the motion too early in the whiff, then you'll have less frames to walk forward. Overall, I'd say this technique is easier than the OS infinite but judging the amount of distance walkable (while still being close enough to super at the end) and timing the 720 to end at the same time as the whiff is still quite tough so you have to give lots of credit to VIPER for performing this in-tourney.


    2. I'm as perplexed as everyone else unfortunately. I tried testing frame-by-frame but couldn't find a way to get stuck in s.LP animation and no way to hold charge otherwise. For Guile, if you chain rapid s.LKs and then hold back, you won't go into the knee bazooka but that doesn't seem to exactly apply to the case here.


    3. I've mentioned this before. If you stretch out the combo by doing it as loose as possible (super-meaty crossup j.MK, relatively late cl.LK and late c.MK and then late cancel into psycho crusher), it seems to be a consistent combo. There's almost no leniency between cl.LK and c.MK so the main onus is on hitting with the crossup as late as you can, making the most of its hitstun before hitting cl.LK, and then canceling to psycho crusher at the very end of c.MK.

    If you try everything as early as possible, then yeah, there's possibly 0% chance of satisfying the 55-frames (or 54-frame 1/2 chance). Either way, it's certainly not easy to consistently delay your moves to satisfy the combo.
  • Warrior's DreamsWarrior's Dreams 梅原 > Wong Joined: Posts: 1,292
    Regarding mystery # 2, seeing this reminded me of charge partitioning with Remy in 3rd Strike. The other thing is that Boxer jumped back before he did it. So, I am conjecturing that it is done in the following way: First, jump back and immediately start charging down for the headbutt. Now Boxer's jump arc is low, so I don't think he has enough time to charge during the jump, so this might explain why he is in a stationary position when he lands. Now he does duck once when he lands, so perhaps this completes the charge required ... or perhaps the jabbing somehow stores the motion, much like holding forward stores Chun Li's charge. Then perhaps he just presses up (since he is already pressing jab and he already pressed down on the ground) to execute the headbutt.

    Also, I don't think it carried over from WW, but another reason that just came to me is that maybe there is a 1/512 chance of executing a special just by chance alone? This reason is probably not possible, but it occurred to me as a possibility.
    You shouldn't care about the division between ST and HDR, but rather the message you are sending to tournament organizers if you stop supporting the classic style of Street Fighter II.

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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Yeah, I actually thought of the same thing and tested charge partitioning but boxer's headbutt apparently requires a lot more charge than just jump back and then crouch down again. For the amount of time Shiki was in the air and then the very short crouch afterward, it doesn't seem to meet the headbutt's 55-frame charge requirement.
  • Warrior's DreamsWarrior's Dreams 梅原 > Wong Joined: Posts: 1,292
    Perhaps it'd be easier to ask one of the guys going to SBO to ask someone who knows Shiki then?
    You shouldn't care about the division between ST and HDR, but rather the message you are sending to tournament organizers if you stop supporting the classic style of Street Fighter II.

    Mike Watson's Super Turbo Revival Sunday's Stream every Sunday! Look up "IEBattleGrounds" on twitch tv's website.
    Here is the latest stream:
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    number 1,



    at like 1:35 is how to do walking 720.

    I can do the walking super with short, jab, strong, and forward all with the same effort. if you can do it with jab, you can do it with any other button just as easy.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    I asked Neo about standing head but and this is what I got


    [07:26:08 p.m.] u: You can do a volley of punches out with keeping down positon
    [07:26:30 p.m.] u: You can do a volley of standing puches with keeping down positon
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • Elton ChongElton Chong AKA Herbert Wong Joined: Posts: 346
    3 mysteries.

    If 400Ib, cigar eating virgin, cigarbob hasnt seen his dick in 25 years and noone else has either, does that mean he doesnt have one?

    Is cigarbob bullet proof?

    How fat would you need to be to be bulletproof?
    .
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    Was going to suggest : since it takes some frames to crouch, what if you time your st. jabs ultra fast so the recovery of it can't let you crouch, but you do maintain the down position ? Only way I can think for that trick to be possible.
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    I asked Neo about standing head but and this is what I got


    [07:26:08 p.m.] u: You can do a volley of punches out with keeping down positon
    [07:26:30 p.m.] u: You can do a volley of standing puches with keeping down positon

    You already showed me what standing head was, you had me stand on a chair while you gave me felatio, was great.
    Was going to suggest : since it takes some frames to crouch, what if you time your st. jabs ultra fast so the recovery of it can't let you crouch, but you do maintain the down position ? Only way I can think for that trick to be possible.

    This is exactly how it was done, you'll notice he actually crouches before the headbutt, he was holding down.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    You already showed me what standing head was, you had me stand on a chair while you gave me felatio, was great.


    Pasky = SRK's MILF lol


    Lets see..............

    If I rearange this and add that..................voala! We get what you really meant to post!
    You had me stand on my head on a chair while I rubbed your picture on my chest and stuck djfrijoles thumb in my butt - Was great.
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    1. You're thinking about it too hard. The method you described works but makes the motion unnecessarily complex. T.Hawk can integrate the full super motion directly within the whiff s.MP. There's far more than enough leniency during the whiff for you to perform the 720 motion.

    Can you do it too then? I'd try it the way I described it. You can accuse me of being overly verbose, but I wasn't aiming to make it more complex. I do not think it is easier than the "OS infinite". If you can do what VIPER did with some consistency your way though, taking all those steps, then maybe it's not such a mystery to everyone as I made it out to be, but I'd like to see it.
    2. I'm as perplexed as everyone else unfortunately. I tried testing frame-by-frame but couldn't find a way to get stuck in s.LP animation and no way to hold charge otherwise. For Guile, if you chain rapid s.LKs and then hold back, you won't go into the knee bazooka but that doesn't seem to exactly apply to the case here.

    I wonder if the timing is stricter... I mean if boxer did this mystery with _whiffed_ jabs, I wonder, can he do charge down, headbutt but "on the way up" tack on a standing jab before it gets out? or maybe crouch jab first, then standing jab? That probably doesn't work at all, I don't know. As for the flash kick/sonic boom though, maybe the Guile similarity applies more to when he's hitting the opponent, as I don't think you can do standing LK, standing LP, flash kick unless they hit. Whatever Shiki did to get it, could that be done _hitting_ the opponent (with just one jab, even) do you think or do they have to be whiffed? My instincts tell me they have to be whiffed in boxer's case.
    3. I've mentioned this before. If you stretch out the combo by doing it as loose as possible (super-meaty crossup j.MK, relatively late cl.LK and late c.MK and then late cancel into psycho crusher), it seems to be a consistent combo. There's almost no leniency between cl.LK and c.MK so the main onus is on hitting with the crossup as late as you can, making the most of its hitstun before hitting cl.LK, and then canceling to psycho crusher at the very end of c.MK.

    If you try everything as early as possible, then yeah, there's possibly 0% chance of satisfying the 55-frames (or 54-frame 1/2 chance). Either way, it's certainly not easy to consistently delay your moves to satisfy the combo.

    I don't know if it makes it any harder to do, but it was j.HK not j.MK.
    number 1,



    at like 1:35 is how to do walking 720.

    I can do the walking super with short, jab, strong, and forward all with the same effort. if you can do it with jab, you can do it with any other button just as easy.

    The difference though is, NeoRay didn't do whiffed standing strong, and also that VIPER is taking longer between the recovery of the MP and the super grab.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    1. Yeah, I did it 3 times in a row the way I described within 15 minutes of testing. Again, the motion just whiff s.MP while performing a 720 and then walk forward and press P. The difficulty here is solely on timing, not on the move's input. I still don't see why you would try to split the 360s up when you can just do it all in the whiff s.MP. Like I said, you still seem to be making this unnecessarily hard; if you take what I said and try it out, I'm pretty sure you'll see that it's not crazy hard. Now, it's not like I would just go out there and do it in-tourney but it's not something I would be blown out of my mind about.

    2. Yeah, there are 7 frames after the down motion to continue and that's enough time to tag in a s.LP. However, the s.LP seems to push back the opponent just far enough that the canceled headbutt won't combo as a 3rd hit, likely because the startup on headbutt is so slow. Not sure if that has anything to do with the trick though. For folks who are saying this has to do with rapidfire LPs preventing boxer from crouching, mind explaining the timing if you've tested it yourself?

    3. No difference. Hitstun for medium and hard attacks are the same 11 frames against standing opponents. And yes, I did this combo 3 times in a row as well within 15 minutes.
  • SFA3-BeginnerSFA3-Beginner GGPO : Toki` Joined: Posts: 31
    #2
    s.lp(whiff), cr.lk,cr.lp - mash lp & charge down
    the cr.lp will be done standing even though you are holding down, than keep mashing lp and u will have enough time to charge the headbutt. cr.lk -> cr.lp must be mashed quite fast. important part is the s.lp dunno why but without it the cr.lk,cr.lp(standing) thing wont work. after each headbutt u have to reset the trick with a whiff s.lp.
    shit is now called toki trick #2.
    over and out
  • chun_li1chun_li1 Joined: Posts: 147
    #2
    s.lp(whiff), cr.lk,cr.lp - mash lp & charge down
    the cr.lp will be done standing even though you are holding down, than keep mashing lp and u will have enough time to charge the headbutt. cr.lk -> cr.lp must be mashed quite fast. important part is the s.lp dunno why but without it the cr.lk,cr.lp(standing) thing wont work. after each headbutt u have to reset the trick with a whiff s.lp.
    shit is now called toki trick #2.
    over and out


    lol, my Padawan has become strong in Mind. It shall be dubbed Toki Trick #2 if everyone can confirm it.


    chun_li1
    Space Nazis Incoming : http://www.ironsky.net/
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    #2
    s.lp(whiff), cr.lk,cr.lp - mash lp & charge down
    the cr.lp will be done standing even though you are holding down, than keep mashing lp and u will have enough time to charge the headbutt. cr.lk -> cr.lp must be mashed quite fast. important part is the s.lp dunno why but without it the cr.lk,cr.lp(standing) thing wont work. after each headbutt u have to reset the trick with a whiff s.lp.
    shit is now called toki trick #2.
    over and out

    We have a winner! I can confirm that works (although I couldn't get it out with any consistency and my fingers are sore now). Thanks for the news.
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    Pasky = SRK's MILF lol


    Lets see..............

    If I rearange this and add that..................voala! We get what you really meant to post!


    LoL, you moron...
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    #2
    s.lp(whiff), cr.lk,cr.lp - mash lp & charge down
    the cr.lp will be done standing even though you are holding down, than keep mashing lp and u will have enough time to charge the headbutt. cr.lk -> cr.lp must be mashed quite fast. important part is the s.lp dunno why but without it the cr.lk,cr.lp(standing) thing wont work. after each headbutt u have to reset the trick with a whiff s.lp.
    shit is now called toki trick #2.
    over and out

    Amazing! I tried this and got it within the first 60 seconds, or about the 4th or 5th try. Thanks for posting!

    If anyone gets the name for the trick though, shouldn't it be Shiki (or the first person to come up with it)? In any case, great explanation!

    Ganelon, if you can do it that way, good for you. I really wasn't trying to trick you into doing something unnecessarily complicated; that wasn't my intention. If you can stretch out the 14 frames (as you mentioned, that I mentioned... first, heh) your way, good job. I guess this one's not such a mystery then. I can barely get off regular 360 motions myself.
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    Also confirmed. The key is both transitioning to cr.LK quickly from st.LP, and then tagging on the followup cr.LP. Then you have to keep mashing cr.LP (obviously) or you return to the crouch position. Difficult to do consistently, not sure if it's all that viable in the Honda matchup even if Shiki used it in that video.
    "My first visit to an arcade changed my life. It was such a sensational experience. The fact I got to play with total strangers and connect with them through the game enthralled me." --Daigo Umehara

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  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    Why bother, seems more like a gimmick. Isn't boxers cr. strong better for beating headbutts anyways?
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    The reason to bother is to make the familiar unfamiliar. You can't enjoy a good magic act or a movie without a healthy sense of disbelief. Is the explanation suddenly sour grapes? You mad?
  • chun_li1chun_li1 Joined: Posts: 147
    Against Honda, stand LP is good enough, but Id do it against Dics Psycho Crusher, bait him to do that so I can headbutt it.


    chun_li1
    Space Nazis Incoming : http://www.ironsky.net/
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Why bother, seems more like a gimmick. Isn't boxers cr. strong better for beating headbutts anyways?
    I agree with XSPR. BTW, those chain cancels into super were assumed too hard, and now Mars gets them going any time he wants to. As for cr.strong, a full knockdown (from the headbutt) is almost always better then an air reset. Not that Boxer needs any more help, lol.
  • mowrmowr VROOM VROOM! Joined: Posts: 6,686
    edited June 2015
    mrdhalsim wrote: »

    This is genuinely one of the most impressive things I've ever seen in ST. My jaw dropped.
    Unironically my jam youtube.com/watch?v=RQ68z3v1Ls0

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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    Yeah, that st.strong variation is pretty disgusting. Rare to see though, as it seems much easier (and about as practical) as a st.jab whiff into super.
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