List of Crossover Counters with completely invincible startup

SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive likes Saturn pads.Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭
The video by Renegade on the frontpage reminded me of something I meant to check a while ago but forgot. He noted that all Crossover Counters have *some* invulnerability on entry, which can be used to cancel into invincible hypers for a safe entry and counterattack. I went ahead and checked every Crossover Counter to see which ones had invincibility all the way through start-up and into their first attacking frame. These can be used to smack the opponent off of you even without canceling into a hyper (though they are still punishable if your opponent has time to block the attack, naturally). The list:

Ryu ? (Shoryuken)
Morrigan ? (Shadow Blade)
Chris ? (Combination Punch)
Felicia ? (Rolling Buckler)
Chun-Li ? (Tenshokyaku)
Tron ? (Gustaff Fire)
Arthur ? (Heavenly Slash)
Zero ? (Ryuenjin)
Haggar ? (Double Lariat)
Jill ? (Somersault Kick)
Wolverine ? (Tornado Claw)
Captain America ? (Stars & Stripes)
Deadpool ? (Quick Work)
Thor ? (Mighty Smash)
She-Hulk ? (Somersault Kick)
Spider-man ? (Spider Sting)
X-23 ? (Crescent Scythe)

I tested this by having the training dummy (Ryu) fire a Shinku Hadouken on me at point blank with my back against the corner. I blocked the Shinku, then tagged in my partner via Crossover Counter. If that particular assist beat out Shinku clean on entry, then I put it on this list.

The rule of thumb seems to be that if it looks like a Shoryuken-style anti-air, then it's invincible through start-up when used as a Crossover Counter, even if that attack doesn't normally have invincibility when used as an ordinary assist attack. There are also some other obvious ones (Haggar, Tron) as well as some not-so-obvious ones (Chris).

There are no counters that are invincible all the way through startup, active, and recovery frames.

There's a chance that some of these may be only projectile/beam invincible and not "completely" invincible, or that it's vulnerable for just a frame or two before hitting (I don't think Shinku hits on every frame), so if you find something that disagrees with this list, feel free to correct me.
"This is a perfectly balanced VS." - PTX-40A, Tatsunoko Vs Capcom

Comments

  • RenegadeRenegade Joined: Posts: 3,032
    Nice work!

    Something also worth mentioning, if your assist has invincible startup, you can use that to cancel into a grounded invincible hyper to go through shit.

    For example, you can totally cancel wolverine's tornado claw assist into weapon X.

    The frames on this are really tight though, because you have to cancel before the assist becomes airborne.

    I couldn't get it on Ryu's shoryu->ShinSho.

    Captain America's could also be very useful.
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  • NickRocksNickRocks BasedGod of All Saiyans Joined: Posts: 14,363 ✭✭✭✭✭
    stars and stripes does NOT have startup invincibilty, according to the guide. when hes on point he does but not as an assist.

    good list, looks like MSSpiderman is back XD

    oh shit im a dumbass, this is alpha counters with invinc. disregard my post i suck cocks
  • SirSerpaSirSerpa Joined: Posts: 86
    Hopefully this gets stickied or added to the Wiki. Excellent work! =D
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  • AlidfeAlidfe Joined: Posts: 969
    why does clicking captain america's name take me to amazon.com?
  • SleazoidSleazoid Joined: Posts: 4,042
    What about partially invincible Alpha Counters (yes I think the new names for Alpha Counters are stupid)? Not invincible enough to cover their startup and stuff out Ryu, but invincible enough to cancel into a super that is?
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive likes Saturn pads. Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭
    What about partially invincible Alpha Counters (yes I think the new names for Alpha Counters are stupid)? Not invincible enough to cover their startup and stuff out Ryu, but invincible enough to cancel into a super that is?
    That would probably take a while to test but could be worth it. Apparently every counter has some invincibility as they jump in, so you can cancel into aerial hypers with everyone who has one, but I dunno about invincibility after touching the ground.

    C. Viper Thunder Knuckle is the only one off the top of my head that's probably a sure thing but not on this list. When I was testing it earlier it beat out Chaotic Flame on counter about half the time, so its invincibility probably wears out a frame or two before the attack becomes active.

    EDIT: Interesting... I tested these against Shinku Hadouken, Proton Canon, and Chaotic Flame:

    Ryu: Hadouken counter -> Shin Shoryuken
    Ryu: Tatsumaki counter -> Shin Shoryuken
    Morrigan: Soul Fist counter -> Shadow Servant
    Morrigan: Dark Harmonizer counter -> Shadow Servant

    All four worked. I wouldn't be surprised if all or most characters with invincible hypers (ground or air) could do this now.
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  • PatakaReadaPatakaReada Just a Boy, hungry for love Joined: Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭
    Does Hsien-Ko with armor not count here?
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  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive likes Saturn pads. Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭
    Does Hsien-Ko with armor not count here?
    Well, no, that's armored, not invincible. :razz: But yeah, I guess that's worth noting too.

    I'm actually in the process of testing every non-invincible counter and seeing if they can safely cancel into invincible hypers on the ground. I'm getting mixed results. I still wouldn't be surprised if it was possible for every character, but the timing is definitely either character or assist dependent. Most I get on the first try, some take me a while, some don't happen at all. I'll post a list when I'm done.
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  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive likes Saturn pads. Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭
    Alright, I went through the entire list of assists to find Crossover Counters that had enough invincibility upon entry to safely cancel into an invincible hyper after touching the ground, even while being pelted by an opponent's beam hyper. I assume those that are listed in the OP work so I didn't bother testing many of them, though seeing as how many of those particular counters are anti-air attacks that leap off the ground, the timing would probably be tight for them. As for the rest, here are the ones that definitely work:

    RYU: Hadouken, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku
    MORRIGAN: Soul Fist, Dark Harmonizer
    DANTE: Crystal
    FELICIA: Sand Splash, Cat Spike
    CHUN-LI: Kikoken, Hyakuretsukyaku
    TRISH: Trick "Hopscotch", Trick "Peekaboo", Low Voltage
    AMATERASU: Solar Flare, Cold Star, Bloom
    TRON: Bonne Strike, Bandit Boulder
    CRIMSON VIPER: Thunder Knuckle
    HAGGAR: Violent Axe, Steel Pipe
    HULK: Gamma Wave, Gamma Charge (Anti-Air), Gamma Charge
    IRON MAN: Repulsor Blast
    CAPTAIN AMERICA: Shield Slash, Charging Star
    DEADPOOL: Katana-Rama!, Trigger Happy
    DOCTOR DOOM: Plasma Beam, Hidden Missile, Molecular Shield
    SUPER-SKRULL: Stone Smite, Orbital Grudge, Tenderizer
    SHE-HULK: Torpedo, Clothesline
    SPIDER-MAN: Web Ball, Web Swing
    X-23: Neck Slice, Ankle Slice
    M.O.D.O.K.: Balloon Bomb, Psionic Blast
    MAGNETO: Electromagnetic Disruptor, Hyper Gravitation, Force Field
    DORMAMMU: Dark Hole, Purification, Liberation
    TASKMASTER: Aim Master L, Aim Master M, Aim Master H
    SHUMA-GORATH: Mystic Ray, Mystic Stare, Mystic Smash

    I couldn't get the following to work. They may be possible but the timing seems to be tighter at least:

    CHRIS: Gun Fire, Grenade Toss
    DANTE: Jam Session, Weasel Shot
    VIEWTIFUL JOE: Voomerang, Groovy Uppercut, Shocking Pink
    WESKER: Ghost Butterfly, Samurai Edge, Jaguar Kick
    ARTHUR: Dagger Toss, Fire Bottle Toss
    SPENCER: Wire Grapple L, Wire Grapple M, Armor Piercer
    ZERO: Hadangeki, Shippuga
    CRIMSON VIPER: Seismic Hammer, Burning Kick
    AKUMA: Gohadoken, Tatsumaki Zankyaku, Hyakki Gojin
    JILL: Cartwheel Kick, Arrow Kick
    WOLVERINE: Berserker Slash, Berserker Barrage
    IRON MAN: Unibeam, Smart Bomb
    M.O.D.O.K.: Barrier

    I did not bother testing any of a character's counters if he or she has no ground hypers with startup invulnerability according to the Bradygames guide. Judging from what Renegade posted earlier, I assume that any counter in the game can be safely canceled into an invincible aerial hyper immediately upon entry.

    The vast majority of the counters in the first list have very lenient timing for canceling. If I didn't get one to work after about 5-8 attempts, I moved on.

    If a character has multiple hypers with invulnerability, then any of them can be canceled into from the list of counters above. Thinking back, I never did bother to check Viper's EX moves or feints, though.

    I'm less sure about the characters listed above with some cancelable counters and some uncancelable counters. The counters that they had that I know are cancelable had really tight timing compared to most of the rest of the list, so those that are listed as uncancelable for those characters may just have tight timing as well. At a certain point I just didn't feel like testing two dozen times to make sure anymore.

    Not entirely sure whether the Raging Demon works or not because it's difficult for me to be exact with that input for these purposes.

    I really doubt this list is 100% accurate, so feel free to verify or correct whatever you find on your own.

    I also double-checked the list in the OP to see if any of those were invincible when used as plain assist attacks. Only Tron and Haggar seemed to be invincible, and I think I even actually caught Tron's assist in something on startup once. I couldn't replicate that again after about a dozen attempts though.

    EDIT: And you know, despite spending a few hours to figure out and transcribe all of this stuff, I still have no idea why I have so much trouble actually getting the game to recognize my input for the counter attack in the first place. Sometimes it works fine, sometimes I mash f+assist repeatedly and nothing happens. What's up with that?
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  • SleazoidSleazoid Joined: Posts: 4,042
    My guess is that the game looks for two conditions for an Alpha Counter, you must block for X frames - and then input F+A1/A2 while still in the blockstun for that hit. If you get hit by something else (like the next incoming hit of Shinku) you have to block that for X frames before you can try to AC again. Probably to prevent AC from being way too powerful.

    I tried to AC against Super Skrull's Inferno (which is the fastest hitting super in game as far as I know), and it seems this holds up - you can't AC Infeeeeeerno until the very last hit.

    Anyway, thanks for the work. Kinda bummed about Spencer not being able to do anything.

    Funny thing about AC I found while I was fiddling around, if you AC in response to Maximum Wesker, it seems to lose it's lock on effect and Wesker flies up several screens - both completely nulling whatever chip the super does and making it punishable for many characters. Of course if you mess up the AC and do it late Wesker might clip you a few times, but I think he still won't be locked on.
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive likes Saturn pads. Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭
    Updated the two list posts in this thread with DLC character info. Also put the first list in the hyper guide.

    Right now I'm working on a complete chart and ordered list of every projectile attack in the game from most durability/priority to least, but that's going to take a little while. Only about halfway through the Marvel side of the roster at this point.
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  • CauldrathCauldrath Joined: Posts: 617
    I posted my notes on projectile durability in another thread, if you want to combine mine with yours.

    Also, for activating a Crossover Counter, it seems to be more reliable if you are in Advancing Guard delay or if you just started getting hit. I don't have any real evidence for it, though. I was also able to get Somersault Kick into Machine Gun Spray to work. You have to delay it until the hitting frames, I think, and the window seems pretty small because she winds up airborne very quickly.
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  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭
    bumping this amazing thread

    Someone (I think Devil Jin) mentioned Zero's Shippua (f+H) was invincible as a COC.
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  • SlayersliceSlayerslice Joined: Posts: 1,665
    Chris' combination punch gives a hard knockdown I am pretty sure you can follow it up with a j. magnum for a combo
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  • AcidicEnemaAcidicEnema Joined: Posts: 695
    Okay thanks to this thread I've found this weird ass bug (might have been posted somewhere else already but ionno):

    Use Doom Missile assist. Cross over counter with Doom then mash back+assist (the one you used to call him). If he's close enough to the enemy, he'll back throw them without shooting off a single missile. Considering that Doom's backthrow can be comboed off, this is potentially very powerful. The down side is that if he's out of throw range, then he'll just do the missiles as normal and is hella vulnerable... This will probably be very useful against specific moves like Wolverine's Divekick.

    Haven't gotten it to work with any other assist.
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  • Dr. GrammarDr. Grammar Fighting Game Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭
    Okay thanks to this thread I've found this weird ass bug (might have been posted somewhere else already but ionno):

    Use Doom Missile assist. Cross over counter with Doom then mash back+assist (the one you used to call him). If he's close enough to the enemy, he'll back throw them without shooting off a single missile. Considering that Doom's backthrow can be comboed off, this is potentially very powerful. The down side is that if he's out of throw range, then he'll just do the missiles as normal and is hella vulnerable... This will probably be very useful against specific moves like Wolverine's Divekick.

    Haven't gotten it to work with any other assist.
    What other assists did you try? The only other ones I would expect to do the same thing would be Tron's Bandit Boulder and Zero's Shippuga.
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  • MaximilianoMaximiliano -Affinity- Joined: Posts: 565
    Necrobump. Has anyone compiled a list for UMvC3?

    "Dear god the pictures in the [UMvC3] character select screen are f*cking HIDEOUS. Some of them make the characters look like they have Down Syndrome. Some of the male characters have faces I would expect them to make while getting he*d. Some of them look like they're straining really hard to sh*t. Huge downgrade." - Aerial Screw
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive likes Saturn pads. Joined: Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭
    Necrobump. Has anyone compiled a list for UMvC3?
    It's in the Brady Guide this time. IIRC, it's virtually identical to the list in the OP.
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  • Demon DashDemon Dash Hyper Viper Raccoon! Joined: Posts: 5,850 ✭✭✭
    Does the invincibility carry over into whatever hyper you're activating?
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  • TheCapeTheCape Joined: Posts: 892 ✭✭
    snip

    No Frank West? At level 4 his Survival Techniques hyper has good invulnerability on it.
    If its not fun, I will just stop playing it.
  • Noble CactusNoble Cactus In name only. Joined: Posts: 8,451
    No Frank West? At level 4 his Survival Techniques hyper has good invulnerability on it.
    If you notice, that list was made in 2011 before UMvC3. Though I imagine that would work with shopping cart, yes.
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  • jeopardy0jeopardy0 Joined: Posts: 34
    Someone (I think Devil Jin) mentioned Zero's Shippua (f+H) was invincible as a COC.

    it's not, but ryuenjin is. my method of testing: have point character blocking vergil's spiral swords, then cross over counter. ryuenjin hits vergil but shippuga leaves zero stuck in the swords
  • LakeEarthLakeEarth Joined: Posts: 421
    Ghost Rider has one of the best crossover counters (chain whip assist). Not only does it have startup invincibility (beats beam hypers), but it causes a wallbounce so you get to a full combo without needing to use an extra meter or x-factor.

    Props go to Karsticles for figuring that one out.
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