Tiers for non-fighting games?

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  • shadowcharlieshadowcharlie ★ஜ۩dip۞set۩ஜ★ Joined: Posts: 9,168 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    mslano wrote:
    I must admit that I am not a fan of Cyan in general, so in not using him, I may have missed something. The only really strong point about him I have seen is the Psycho Cyan glitch. While that is really overpowered, it takes quite a few turns to set up properly with many conditions having to be met. In that time, most enemies can be damaged quite a bit with a party of four good characters, so I don't see how that might suddenly turn him into a god like character. Plus, he is completely dependant on two other characters in order to carry out the glitch, so it cannot really be attributed to him being a good character. Rather, it is possible to consider a party like that as top tier on a list of parties.
    if u look at it like a formula then i def see your point, i was refering to overall ability to excel
    bust my gun at the sun just to sit in the shade~
    ἐξίσταται γὰρ πάντ' ἀπ' ἀλλήλων δίχα
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    mslano wrote:
    The tiers I posted were for a Natural Magic Game. That means, nobody can use magic (except for Terra, Celes and Gogo) because they do not learn magic naturally. Thus, Relm is pure shit. Her only good quality normally is having the highest magic power. This does not benefit her without any magic to use. I believe I mentioned all this in the original post.

    Obviously, I missed that part. My mistake ":^)"
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Advance Wars 2 (CO tier list)

    Not specific order in each tier class. Also, tiering may differ on specific type of maps, but overall, I'd say this is pretty accurate.

    -God tier
    Sturm
    Hachi
    Colin (DGR)
    Nell

    -Top tier
    Kanbei
    Lash
    Colin

    -Upper mid
    Grit
    Hawke

    -Mid tier
    Sami
    Andy
    Max
    Olaf
    Drake
    Jess
    Eagle
    Sensei

    -Low tier
    Adder
    Flak
    Sonja
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Anyone play any shmups seriously and wanna give some tiers for those games? How about Raiden Fighters Jet for starters? I'll experiment a bit and give my opinion of the tiers.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Tops (imho)

    Diablo 2x 1.10
    Dual Dream Sorc w/pure vita
    Bonemancer w/enigma+marrowalks
    Wind Druid w/enigma
    Charge+Hammer Pally

    MUonline
    Pure Vita BK w/max reflect equip.
    Wizard w/ energy shield maxed
    Agility Elf

    JediKnight2 Multy-player
    DarkSide w/Drain, grip+kick combo, and elec to finish.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Star Ocean 3

    Top: Maria
    Second: Sophia, Cliff, Fayt
    Mid: Nel, Albel, Mirage
    Bottom: Peppita, Roger, Adray

    Sophia stunlocking is nice, but it's not damaging. Maria's Scatter Beam combos and then later Energy Burst combos propel her to the the most broken spot.

    Final Fantasy 6

    The problem with tiering this game is, it's hard to find a "standard." Do you go with "max level/max stats"? At that point, everyone is nearly the same. Do you go with low-level or natural-magic restrictions? You can, but who really plays that way. So the best way is to tier it under an ambiguous "normal" play conditions, whatever you think "normal" is. IMO, that means you can gain spells from Espers, but you don't purposely overlevel nor spend time getting every little secret there is. As such I'd tier FF6:

    Top: Terra, Celes, Edgar, Gau
    Second: Mog, Shadow, Gogo
    Mid: Sabin, Setzer, Locke, Relm
    Bottom: Strago, Cyan, Umaro
  • mslanomslano ODB Joined: Posts: 20
    Strike wrote:
    Final Fantasy 6

    The problem with tiering this game is, it's hard to find a "standard." Do you go with "max level/max stats"? At that point, everyone is nearly the same. Do you go with low-level or natural-magic restrictions? You can, but who really plays that way. So the best way is to tier it under an ambiguous "normal" play conditions, whatever you think "normal" is. IMO, that means you can gain spells from Espers, but you don't purposely overlevel nor spend time getting every little secret there is. As such I'd tier FF6:

    Top: Terra, Celes, Edgar, Gau
    Second: Mog, Shadow, Gogo
    Mid: Sabin, Setzer, Locke, Relm
    Bottom: Strago, Cyan, Umaro

    The reason I made NMG tiers is because that is the only way I like to play the game. The first time through, I used Espers and quickly realized that any character with a few key spells can be top tier. With Espers teaching spells and adjusting stats, tiers are not that important. It basically becomes:

    Top Tier:
    Anyone with Ultima, Quick, Life 3 and Osmose

    Low Tier:
    Anyone without all of those spells

    Bottom Tier:
    Umaro

    That's why I prefer to use NMG, leaving the characters as they start and without tampering with them. It is not a perfect system because some characters are clearly meant to use Espers (Relm), but it allows for individual strengths to shine through. Otherwise, the characters' skills are lost to generic magic use akin to FF7.

    In any case, I agree with your list for the most part. I would put Relm higher because she has the highest natural magic power, which would mean her spells only do less damage than Morphed Terra. I would also put Setzer at least ahead of Sabin and probably into Second tier because he is the best Offering user without unnatural vigor boosting and he can do really high damage with his slots (which are hard to time, but not impossible). Other than those two, I find no problems.
    Trying is the first step towards failure.
    -Homer Simpson

    Av by me.
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    Might as well join it:

    Dynasty Warriors 3-5:
    Top Tier:
    Wu Dynasty- It seems people down out Wu for specific reasons but it has one positive: strength in numbers. In every battle I've played with or against the Wu, they always outnumber me. This is good for longevity battles. We're talkin bout fuckin 50 MINUTE FIGHTS!!! If you go ahead and kill the commander, it's still 20 minutes but if u like having the odds against you and enjoy 1000 K.O. fights, this is the Dynasty to roll with.
    Best Officers:
    Zhou Yu
    Sun Ce
    Zhou Tai
    Ling Tong(5)
    Gan Ning(if you cocky)

    Mid Tier(tie):
    Wei Dynasty- This is the mid level dynasty that has fewer officers but strength is upon them. The Wei could be known as the "powerhouse" dynasty due to strength outlook at the beginning of Musou Mode. Slow yet powerful, going against this dynasty could produce more challenge than Wu could dream of. If you like to go for a swift kill to the commander but don't like killing sprees, go against this dynasty. If you want power, USE this dynasty.
    Best Officers:
    Xaihou Dun
    Xaihou Yuan
    Cao Pi(5)
    Xu Huang
    Cao Ren

    Shu Dynasty- The underdogs. Much smaller than Wei or Wu with fewer officers, why should you use this dynasty? Musou Gauge. These officers pack MAJOR musou which means longer devestation to the battlefield. Going against this dynasty isnt much challenge and very few officers for any killing sprees that go past 600 K.O. Although thought to be weak, this dynasty can keep in the battle longer due to another commander in the mist.
    Best Officers:
    Ma Chao
    Pang Tong(for good musou)
    Jiang Wei
    Guan Ping(5)

    Low Tier:
    Other Kingdoms- The only thing that keeps this dynasty from sucking is Lu Bu. The others aren't worth your time.
    Best OFFICER:
    Lu Bu....nuff said....

    Uh, totally wrong. The best kingdom based on their officers is by far Shu, because they have a large number of spear users, and spears are the best weapons due to their crowd-controlling. The Shu spear users are also the fastest spear wielders in the game, and combined with the long range, makes them lethal. Shu also has one of the best sword users in Liu Bei, and in DW4, the best dueler in Zhuge Liang. Kingdom ranks go:

    Shu (due to spear users), Wu (most balanced kingdom), Wei (power, but slow as shit, making most of their officers suck), then other (only good officers are Zuo Ci (broken), Lu Bu (less broken) and Zhu Rong).

    The FF6 rankings that people are posting are also wrong. It is well-established that the best 4 characters are by far:
    Terra, Celes, Locke and Edgar

    Atma/Illumina Exclusivity makes them better than all other characters (Atma allows 39996 damage in one attack without stat boosts or using MP), plus their armor set is also better than almost anyone elses.

    FF6 rankings should go:
    1)Terra
    2)Locke
    3)Edgar
    4)Celes
    5)Cyan
    6)Sabin
    7)Shadow
    8)Gau
    9)Gogo
    10)Mog
    11)Strago
    12)Setzer
    13)Relm
    14)Umaro
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Atma Weapon is really not that great of a weapon. By the time you are dealing sizable damage with it, your characters are already too highly leveled. Similarly, Locke isn't that great of a character either. His magic stat is too low, he doesn't get nearly the good %MBlock equipment that Terra, Celes, and Edgar has; and stealing won't get you anything worthwhile.


    Cyan stinks. Other than the Psycho Cyan glitch (which as mentioned before, takes time to setup; time that could've been used just to kill the enemies outright), his SwdTech skill is probably tied with Relm's Sketch as worst skillset in the game. Why? Who would want to sit there and WAIT for that slowass bar to fill up, while your party is being smacked around when you could've just used the other 3 characters and finished the battle already? Not to mention his equips and magic stat aren't that hot either. Cyan deserves his bottom-tier status.

    Gau is good; really good actually. He's probably your best damage dealer in the WoB because many Rages are far more powerful than any magic spells available at the time. And Stray Cat + Merit Award + Tempest Katana = shear death.

    Mog and Shadow are good for pretty much the same reason. Dances and Throw are huge damage dealers for more than half the game (especially Dance). Shadow has basically 50% counter attack/evade with his dog. Both their magic stats are above average.

    And if you're judging on equips alone, Relm should be in the top. She can reach 128% MBlock without Merit Award (Magus Rod, Force Shield, Cat Hood, Tao Robe, White Cape x2), basically almost ensuring nothing hits her; and has the highest magic stat in the game. Without learning spells, yeah, she's crap; but learning them through Espers, she's much better than people give her credit for. Although I think the investment time put into her is why I dropped her to midtier, when she should probably be in 2nd.
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    Atma Weapon is the only weapon that can do 9999 with the offering without having to raise specific stats. Illumina alone makes the top 4 the top 4, due to the massive amount of stat boosts you get, which can barely be matched by any full equipment set in the game.

    Locke is good because he starts with the highest natural speed, which is by far the most important stat in this game (and is also the hardest to build up). He also has access to unique equipment that is very powerful that the other big 4 can't use, like the Valiant Knife.

    Psycho Cyan is not hard to use, and can be pulled off in one round, two at most. For the most part, the heavy armor users have the best equipment which makes Cyan a lot better than most other characters. He is also one of the few characters that can do 9999x4 damage WITHOUT the offering or quick (although I never screwed around with imps).

    Dances are only ok in WoB (partially due to high failure rate on different terrain, plus randomness factor). Arguably, his best dance in WoB (Water Rondo) isn't all that great because there is almost always a chance for failure (how often are you fighting in water). Shadow is a lot better than Mog because Throw is a hell of a lot better (NOT random), plus he also gets the benefit of having a random shield in Interceptor. Mog's only redeeming factors are: natural Dragoon, snow muffler. His worth as a character drops a lot once you reach the WoR
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I agree that the Big 4 are the best, seriously, Offering + Genji Glove is ownage, period, enough said about that. Also, how can Locke not have high vigor, I've gotten to the world of Ruin on lvl 14, lvl 14, and yes, w/out using cheating devices, there is a way to beat all of them tough baddies if you get the right magic combinations. Because the best Espers as we know it, appear when the world of ruin has happened, seriously, don't lvl up your characters until after the world of ruin. Locke may seem like he sucks at the beginning but in the end, he's one of the best, again the Big 4 have an advantage imo because they can equip more special items then the rest.

    Seriously, if you lvl up Locke right, Offering + Genji Glove and He's a monster, period, infact, lvl up the Big 4, and offering/genjiglove combo is Top Tier, but Locke imo is the best, because he's the fastest in the end.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Ok, I'm now attempting Raiden Fighters Jet tiers...

    God Tier:
    Slaves/Fairy - They have unbelievable damage potential, have the lowest hitboxes, and can also use Slaves themselves. That's just not right. When you use a Slave, the game becomes ridiculously easy (well, at least everything but the bosses) because you kill all the enemies on screen before they even release a bullet. Seriously, even the worst Slave is better than the best regular jet.

    Now, for the tiering of the jets. First of all, I'll list whether they're better with laser or missile, and then I'll go into a brief description of its tiering. Also, the planes in the tiers themselves have no ranking.

    Top Tier:
    Ixion: This plane's laser and missile attacks are both really good, but I would stick with the laser because it is a bit less random. Now, this thing is just superb in every category. First of all, it is the second fastest jet in the game, and it's laser attack is really, really strong. In fact, it is probably the third strongest attack in the game. It's laser charge is also really strong, and with the Ixion's high speed, you'll be able to clear the enemies with ease as you sweep from side to side. Oh, and its primary shot is a nice, damaging, focused spread shot. This jet is just amazing in every category.

    Miclus: This plane only has a primary shot. Why is this thing top tier? It only has a primary shot, and a bomb that doesn't even block enemy bullets? Well... first of all, its primary shot is VERY VERY strong. In fact, its by far the strongest primary shot in the game, putting the Miclus's total power up in the top five of all the jets. Next, its bomb, though not being able to block enemy bullets, is BY FAR the strongest bomb in the game. It just wrecks everything. And, now the most important aspect of the Miclus. It is TINY! It's hitbox is about the size of a Slave. This means if you know what you're doing, you'll almost never get it.

    Hell Diver: Best with Laser. This plane, like the Ixion, is just very, very balanced overall. It is also very fast (probably third fastest in the game) and also has great attacks. It's laser attack throws boomerangs that cover most of the screen, allowing you to hit most enemies. Now, the big part about this jet is its laser charge attack: It shoots those boomerangs out like mad. They do heavy damage, and basically cover the whole screen! Oh, and it charges very, very fast for something that powerful. That charge attack alone warrants its inclusion in the top tier, IMO.

    Judge Spear: This jet powers up its laser and missile attacks separately. This jet has nice attacks that do decent damage. Its bomb creates a chain napalm effect, where one explosion leads into more explosions with each explosion doing separate damage. Its primary shot is also pretty decent. So why's this seemingly average jet in the top tier? It's in here because it is BY FAR the fastest jet in the game, and its probably the fastest jet in any shmup game that has ever been made. This jet is SO fast that if you don't have very good control, accidentally running into enemy bullets will become your main form of death very soon. However, if you do control your plane well, it is very hard for the Judge Spear to get hit because its speed is just too great. However, this jet does have a drawback: it does not have an instant bomb. This means no panic bombing to save your ass if you're in trouble.

    Mid Tier:
    Chaser 2000: Laser is definitely better. This plane is really fast (probably tied with Hell Diver), has a great, unique homing laser, and has a very nice laser charge also. It's not in the top tier because it is a bit too weak, but its speed and crowd clearing definitely save it from being bottom tier.

    Beast Wing: Laser definitely. This thing is really, really slow, but its also really, really powerful. It can be the strongest jet in the game, almost being as strong as the untouchable Slaves. Its primary shot is also a natural spread shot, meaning the closer you are to an enemy, the more damage you do. Oh, and its ultra strong flamethrower is controllable, meaning you can wave it from left to right, allowing you to clear crowds easier.

    Aegis IV: Laser definitely. This jet is pretty average in everything. However, it stands out due to its laser homing shot. Its one of the more effective homing shots I've used in any shmup, and the charged up version is even better. Not only does no enemy survive, but those lasers are actually very strong. And again, because its average in everything, that also means its not bad in anything either: meaning it has good speed, evasion, and strength.

    Flying Ray: Both missile and laser are useful in their own ways. This jet has pretty good speed, and two unique weapons that can be taken advantage of. First of all, its laser as a regular attack is not too useful and very awkward to use. However, as a charge attack, it becomes one of the strongest charge attacks in the game, as long as all the lasers hit. Therefore, if you can time that well, most enemies go down real quick. It's missile attack is average, like the laser. But, again like the laser, the charged up version is a lot better. MANY, MANY cruise missiles get shot out, covering the entire screen. Now this is a screen clearer, if there ever was one. It's like the Hell Diver's laser charge, minus the damage. Oh, and the trails of smoke in the cruise missiles can hinder your vision a bit, but overall, its not too big a deal.

    Death Header: DEFINITELY missile. It's laser attack is just about useless. Fortunately, it has the best missile attack of any jet in the game. Not only is it strong, but it homes very, very well. Oh, and the charge attack is unbelievably strong for the speed at which it charges. Other than that its superb missile attack, this jet is fairly average.

    Griffin: Laser and missile can both work. Statswise, this jet is average, but it does have two very unique weapons. Its laser attack is the third best homing weapon in the game, shooting out little pods that track down and shoot down all enemies in its path. Its a bit weak, unfortunately, and it takes a while getting to everybody, but it still gets the job done nicely. It's laser charge is the exact same as the Ixion's, but for some reason, it's much, much weaker. I guess that just makes the Ixion that much more scarier. Its missile attack shoots out little mines whose explosions have the unique ability of absorbing enemy bullets. Needless to say, this can be very effective if you use it wisely. However, the rate of fire of those things is very slow, so one has to watch for that. And another problem, the Griffin is really slow, which is never good.

    Blue Javelin: This jet powers up laser and missile separately. It's very fast and has very nice weapons. They're all very bland and simple, though so there isn't much description needed. It shoots nice spread lasers as its primary weapon, and its missiles shoot out... regular missiles. It does good damage, though, so there's nothing to complain about. Oh, and did I mention this thing is pretty darn fast?

    Bottom Tier:
    Now, first of all, no jet in this game sucks. These just happen to be not as good. Proof? Many of highest top scores are acquired with the Raiden MK-II, which is in my bottom tier.

    Raiden mk-II: This jet powers up missile and laser separately. First of all, this jet has the coolest weapon of any shmup ever, IMO. It is the infamous purple laser from Raiden II, the snake like laser that you have complete control over. And its missile secondary is regular homing missiles. So, why is it bottom tier? First of all, it is VERY slow. And I mean probably the slowest jet of any game EVER. That slow. This actually isn't that big a problem with regular enemies because your laser of doom is attacking everything on screen at the same time, but it is a major problem for bosses. If you're not too skilled, and sometimes even if you are, your slow speed makes it very hard to dodge bosses' attacks. Oh, and that mega laser.... it's a bit on the weak side, which is only fair, since it is so good in every other category, but that puts this jet in the bottom tier.

    Raiden mk-II beta: This jet powers up laser and missile separately. This jet has decent speed, but its weaponry isn't the best. Its weapons are designed for coverage, meaning it sacrifices strength. However, its coverage isn't a homing weapon. Rather, it's a massive spread shot. It's missile is also a spread of small missiles. The problem with spread shots, is that unless you are very close to an enemy, allowing all hits to connect, they do very low damage, and in this game, you don't have that many opportunities to be that close to enemies.

    Eraser: Laser. This jet is very slow, but it might be the strongest in the game (it's either this or the Beast Wing). However, the Beast Wing's flamethrower is controllable, whereas the Eraser's super lasers are not and can only shoot straight. This makes clearing crowds a lot harder. Plus, it has no spread shot like the Beast Wing, so that's also a problem. But, its charge shot is cooler ":^)" It's one big super laser that crushes anything in its path!

    Well, that's it. Any people that agree, disagree?
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    By the time Atma Weapon is striking for 9999 damage (meaning your HP and level are supremely high for that to happen); all your characters are ridiculously powerful already. No one is questioning that Illumina is the best sword; but since Terra, Edgar, and Celes offer a lot more than just being able to equip the Illumina; the "Big 4" (if there was one), definitely does not include Locke in it.

    Speed is overrated and far from the "most important stat in the game." At best, a fast character will get to act ahead of one of your other characters, and that doesn't account for much. It's being faster than the enemy that matters; and Locke's speed isn't so lightning fast that he will lap the enemies in turn. The way FF6's battle system is designed, speed is generally not an important factor. If I had to choose a "most important stat in the game," I'd vote for Magic Power above anything else.

    Valiant Knife is okay; but for it to get any real good use, Locke has to be:
    a) near death, or
    b) so ridiculously overleveled that a fully HP swing will still do high damage because of how the game factor's a character's level into dealing damage

    Psycho Cyan may not be tough to setup; but it still takes time to set up. You still have to:
    1. Wait for Cyan to charge up for 'Retort'
    2. Cast Imp on him
    3. Kill him
    4. Revive him
    After all this, Cyan will revive only to keep attacking until everything is dead. Okay, that's nice, but all this time you could've probably already finished the battle instead of setting this up. And furthermore, it is a glitch. It's like saying, anyone with "Vanish/Doom" is top tier. Besides all this, Cyan really is a bad character. How can Cyan do 9999x4 damage without either again, overleveling? And still, I'm assuming you mean through his QuadraSlice (Level 7 ignore-defense tech) move he accomplishes this (or again a ridiculously overleveled Level 4 QuadraSlam). You're still ignoring that all this time you're waiting for his bar to charge, the rest of your party probably could've cleaned up the battle altogether themselves. Not to mention you have no control over what exactly Cyan hits; he might be hitting the same enemy for overkill when he should be spreading out his hits.

    As for Cyan's armor, it's nothing special. Cyan can equip with Genji Armor; but then again, so can 6 other people. And actually, Genji Armor isn't really that special at all. Raw defense does not make up the best armor. Mog and Gau get Snow Mufflers; already a better equip than Cyan. Relm, Strago, and Gogo get Magus Rods and TaoRobes (+30% and +10% MagicBlock respectively). Relm gets CatHood (another +10% MagicBlock, plus a whole bunch of other stat boosts). Terra/Celes get Mystery Veil (+3 Magic and +10% MagicBlock) and Minerva (+25% MP; + various stats; +10% MagicBlock; various elemental defenses). Cyan's armor equips are definitely nothing stellar; arguably the worst in the game.

    Mog's worth of a character doesn't drop from WoB to WoR, it changes. His dances are overpowered in WoB, despite their somewhat noticeable failure rate, they are still more damaging than the spells fired off by Terra or Celes at the time. And, he joins at a good few levels above your party at the time with better equips too. Shadow was put too low on your list. With 99 Shurikens (which costs only around 3000), you have a Throw attack that is consistently stronger than any physical attack your party is capable of at that time. Setzer is also too low on your list. If there was ever a canidate for the Offering, it's Setzer with his Fixed Dice since that weapon isn't effected by Offering's attack penalty.

    Offering/Genji Glove is not that great of a combo. Sure, it's damage potential is probably the best on a Level 99 Locke with Atma Weapon/Valiant Knife doing 9999 x8 damage... but you're missing the point of leveling up that much breaks the game anyway. A tier list of level 99 characters wouldn't say anything really about the character. Locke sucks in the WoB and gets somewhat redeemable in WoR; but he's nowhere near as exploitable as other characters like Terra, Edgar, or Gau who are viable throughout the game... unless you overlevel the crap out of your party.
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    If we where not to conclude max lvl then that means many characters within an rpg would be rank severely differently. Ayla is not even that great until into the later parts of her game when she recieves Iron Fist, she's pretty good before hand, but not enough where I would take out Lucca for her.

    Even in FFX, if that was the case, Yuna isn't even that great until later into the game, where her more powerful summons come into place, other than the OD of the Summons, they do mediocre damage until you recieve Bahamut which is late into the game and the summons after him. Lulu would be extremely good because she will deal good damage portionally throughout the entire game, and pyshically Auron would rock. However we all know that in the end, the listing is very differently when maxed because Wakka has the potential to deal the most 99999 when compared to everyone else.

    I will admit, Locke sucks at the WoB, but after, if you don't lvl up any of the characters until the WoR, that's when you notice the potential of many of them. Locke in the end, is one of the best, because I feel you underestimate speed, because he's almost usually the first character to strike, and when maxed, yes, everyone will do ridiculous damage, but it will come down to who will do the most in a succession and the fastest. Magic is great, however later on, it's nothing compared to the genjiglove/offering combo. The most you can do with Ultima is twice with the option of gem box, however, why do that, when there's another combination that's even far better and can kill them even far faster, many monsters would require more than 2 Ultima attacks to kill. Not to mention the offering/genji glove combo will wipe out any boss period, even Kefka who has 64k will die from from the 8x 9999 damage.

    In the end, it comes down to speed, and how much damage you can deal within the time frame that will start to seperate the characters, if we where to say throughout the game, then Locke isn't that good, however that would show the same for many rpg's, but I'm saying if you where to pump to lvl 99 and with the right stats build, also, magic damage isn't all that, because with the other magic combination it's even more powerful against bosses or singled enemies then what Ultima could ever bring and plus you can do this before ever getting Ultima.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    Morphed Terra is stronger than Mog in WoB. Sure, Relm has a good equipment set, but how is she going to damage the enemy? She isn't even the best magic user due to the fact that Terra can effectively double her magic power by morphing.

    All Mog can do to damage are random dances and the ability to use the Dragoon Boots + Dragon Horn combo. Dances in WoR do not cut it. Why bother with them when so many other characters have guaranteed damage? Mog's worth in WoR is as a Dragoon, not a Dancer.

    Of the Big 4, Celes is arguably the worst. Her natural magic set is worse than Terra's, she is weaker than Terra (due to morph), and she has by far the worst unique ability of the 4. Her only redeeming factor is her equipment set, but I view Locke's speed and Edgar's tools as better.

    You shouldn't tout Relm's Mag. Block, considering that Locke gets 120% with 3 items only: Illumina, Force Armor, and Force Shield. Give him a White Cape and the Offering, and he now has max mag. block and can do good damage by attacking.

    Shadow is low due to how good the top 4 are. Arguably, he is better than Sabin, but at best that puts him at 6th. I don't think he sucks, but he isn't as good as those above him.
  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Anyone wanna do the FFX-2 dressphere tiers??? Mascot and trainer as well as the special ones are different for each character so I'll leave those alone.

    God: Gunner

    Top: Darknight, Alchemist, Berserker

    Upper Mid: Gun Mage, Samurai, Warrior

    Low Mid: Thief, White Mage, Lady Luck

    Low: Black mage, Songstress
  • Aoishi2ALAoishi2AL Joined: Posts: 280
    The most important stats in FF6 are in order Mblock (the best :clap: ), Magic Power, Speed, Vigor, and Stamina. Evade :tdown: is made useless due to Mblock.

    Speed is a wildcard of a status. It isn't the best, but it can be made redundant by the use of Gembox and Quick, unlimited turns, yay.

    Mblock is basically how characters can evade magic attacks and physically based attacks, if anyone analyzes the algorithms of the game then you'll see what I'm talking about. Basically a character that has good Mblock can withstand almost all magical attacks, and physical attacks that have status induced ailments. So all the people that discard the Force Armors for the Genji Equipment are in for a treat.

    In FF6 most characters attack with magic based attacks and characters like Sabin, specifically, depend on magic. For most of Sabin's blitz's especially the Bum Rush, his best one, depend on his magic power and not his vigor. Only the Pummel, the useless Suplex, and one other blitz depend on his physical attack.

    It's ridiculous that Gogo makes it in the top tier of some people's lists with his awfully low Vigor, Magic, and other stats.

    As stated previously most characters can do 9999 damage with the Genji and Offering. However, the tiers are based on the weapons that the characters can use (merit award is bullshit :tdown: seeing that it takes a spot on the relic equipment that can be used for Marvel Shoes which inflict all positive magical effects such as protect, shell, haste, on a character:karate: or Ribbon etc...) and their stats. Speed is good for a magical party, because two spells are quicker than 8 attacks in a row. If one character has the Genji combo then speed is redundant due to the 8 successive attacks, which by the time they are done fill the ATB gauges of all the enemies and characters in battle. Psycho Cyan is also bullshit, because it should be counted as a cracked out imp glitch instead of Cyan. The general consensus is:

    Top tier:
    Terra (Morph doubles her attack power, magic power, etc... making her as good as two characters combined)

    The rest of the top tier:
    Celes
    Locke (Speed)
    Shadow (M block second highest, throwing penetrates defenses and he has Interceptor)
    Gau (Snow Muffler = Mblock)

    High Mid tier:
    Edgar
    Relm
    Setzer (Fixed Dice and Dice x Genji x Offering = more damage than what Sabin can do with Bum Rush)

    Low Mid tier:
    Sabin
    Cyan
    Mog

    Low tier:
    Umaro

    ?tier:
    Gogo good/bad. A little bit of everything depending on ability set-up, but his stats suck.

    Evaluating characters in single player games without the use of espers deviates from the whole leveling up system of the game.

    the Crono Trigger stats should go like this.

    To measure them in battle would have to be done against Lavos and Nu Spekkio. Healing isn't that much of a factor, if it was then Marle would be the best there is. Every character has the option of using one of those 99 possible elixirs from New Game+'s. Basically the best would be these 3 due to the high magic damage, physical damage, in their placements.

    Top tier:
    Crono=Luminaire=ownage

    Ayla is good at the end really top, but still not as good as Crono. Best Physical attack hands down.

    Magus has great magic. He can Dark Matter everything. Raven Armor better than every other armor.

    Mid Tier:
    Robo
    Frog
    Lucca

    Low tier:
    Marle

    Knights of the Round:
    From best to worst
    Lancelot
    Arthur
    Percival

    Xenogears:
    Fei is top, I forgot though.
  • Aoishi2ALAoishi2AL Joined: Posts: 280


    I will admit, Locke sucks at the WoB, but after, if you don't lvl up any of the characters until the WoR, that's when you notice the potential of many of them. Locke in the end, is one of the best, because I feel you underestimate speed, because he's almost usually the first character to strike, and when maxed, yes, everyone will do ridiculous damage, but it will come down to who will do the most in a succession and the fastest. Magic is great, however later on, it's nothing compared to the genjiglove/offering combo. The most you can do with Ultima is twice with the option of gem box, however, why do that, when there's another combination that's even far better and can kill them even far faster, many monsters would require more than 2 Ultima attacks to kill. Not to mention the offering/genji glove combo will wipe out any boss period, even Kefka who has 64k will die from from the 8x 9999 damage.

    Locke doesn't suck that much in WoB, he gets Thief Knife which also increases his speed, Air Lancets and other goodies combined with at least a Hyper Wrist, Atlas Armlet, or Genji Glove which make him pretty dangerous. No one can actually exploit these relics as much as him, because he is the character that uses The Fight command more than anyone else in the game. Edgar has tools, Terra has Magic, etc, etc...but When he gets Full Moons' and Hawkeyes' he deals up to 2,000 damage onto a single enemy.

    What really sucks about Locke is that in the WOB he doesn't get to multi-target enemies, but that is kinda whack considering single-targetting is the most effective way of eradicating a boss.

    Another thing about Locke is that he gets to use Wing Edge's which raise almost every fucking stat he has and not by 1+ point, but by 7+.

    Anyways Castlevania Symphony of the Night

    Shield Rod and Alucard Shield equals total ownage. Drains energy, you become partially invulnerable, kills everything, the combination of the gods.
  • bbq saucebbq sauce Joined: Posts: 754
    Somebody with real knowledge of Final Fantasy Tactics (unlike me) should tier that game...

    I haven't played that game in years, and there's a lotta different combos you can make... Probably have to tier main characters (Ramza, Orlandu, the chick with the 'break' skills) and the generic jobs seperate.

    I'd assume out of the main characters, Orlandu is tops? Since he's got all the sword skills of the other characters, but even stronger..

    For jobs, I have no idea.... maybe Lancers for their reach and mobility, plus high attack, and their ability wear heavy armor..? Also, if say an enmey starts a summon, you can jump the turn prior to the summon and avoid any damage IIRC.
    See, the problem is that you guys play Street Fighter solely for tournaments and competition with other players, but that is only one small aspect of fighting games.
    ~Playcircus
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    The point of not ranking specifically FF6 at max levels (or over-leveled characters) is because all characters at that point become so ridiculously overpowered that it doesn't matter anymore. A Level 99 Relm will strike for 9999 damage; Morph will effectively do nothing as Terra's damage will already cap at 9999 per hit. That's why ranking FF6 when your characters are so overpowered that' Kefka dies in one strike of 9999 x8' would be silly at that point.

    Again, the only way Genji Glove/Offering combo > Ultima x2 with Gem Box is if your characters are really overleveled. If you're thinking that Genji Glove/Offering = 9999 x4; re-evaluate what levels your characters are when that is happening.

    Speed is an overrated stat, especially concerning Locke. Unless you raise it up in a huge bulk (with Odin), Locke's high speed just means he probably gets his turn first or lap one of your own really slow characters a turn. He'll never be blazing fast enough where he will be attacking twice for another character's one turn (again, unless you stat boost like crazy with Odin). And again, the way FF6's ATB battle system takes into account attack animation; as long as your bar is filled you get a turn. Locke's high speed just gets him his turn first.

    I never said anything about Morphed Terra being bad; and I don't know what you're trying to say to compare Morphed Terra (best mage) with Relm. Relm does have the highest magic stat in the game, but of course Terra's Morph ability doubles her power (but for a fixed amount of time). Does that mean Relm's magic casting abilities all of a sudden suck because Morphed Terra exists? That's silly. Unless you're going around purposely taking time to raise your levels and thus accumulate a large supply of Magic Points; Morph will not be viable in the long run because Terra's charge will run out. You've neglected the strength of Mog's Dances in WoB and Relm's extemely good role as a mage solely because of Terra's Morphing ability, without considering that Morph will not be that commonly used in the many random battles your party will have to fight through.

    And I never claimed that Dances were useful in WoR. They're not. By the time you hit WoR, yes, Mog switches from being a mage Danger into a physical attacking Dragoon. But WoR Mog with Snow Muffler, is just a plain bitch to kill due to his ridiculously high DEF, add in Dragoon Boots/Dragoon Horn/Aura Lance combo; and Mog is not bad at all. In the WoB however, Mog's Dances are really more impressive than you give him credit for.

    I didn't "tout" Relm's MBlock equips over Locke. It was more like I was pointing out that she has really good equips that you seemingly ignored. About Locke's Illumina/Force Shield/Force Armor combo. Yes, Locke is one of the 4 who can equip the Illumina, but consider the other 3 (Terra, Celes, Edgar) are generally considered more and effective for reasons other than just solely being able to equip with the Illumina/Force Shield/Force Armor combo; and you can see why that point isn't really that impressive for Locke.

    Celes is a weaker Terra, but is that a bad thing? Compare her to the rest of the cast, and you still have a character who has better equips, a better magic stat, and a better MBlock stat than more than half the cast. Why would her natural spell list matter unless you're playing a Natural Magic only game? Most people wouldn't consider that kind of playing style standard, so I assumed a good FF6 tier list wouldn't be based on that.

    You said Shadow is arguably better than Sabin (which I don't think it's very "arguable," as it's generally out and out true: Shadow has better equips, better stats, 50% Physical Evade/Counter attack with Interceptor, Throw damage potential... all this over Sabin); yet you placed Sabin over him (and CYAN over both of them). Cyan definitely deserves his bottom tier status for having a very wasteful and ineffective skillset, low magic power, and generic equips.

    When "most characters [are] doing 9999 damage with Genji Glove/Offering," that's because these characters are overleveled. If you choose to tier FF6 with everyone at Level 99, then the tier list wouldn't really say much about the character's potential, but rather it'd just be about a who-can-equip-what list.
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    I guess I can rank FFT since that's the game I'm probably most knowledgeable on. And yes, out of the special characters, Orlandu is definitely tops.
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I would contradict everything by maxing lvls, why wouldn't it be so. Also, why "can't" equips come into play, because they are also a part of what makes a character good, to say that maxing the characters lvl's to find out who is the best being "mute" is pretty bogus. Also, in FF games I've noticed from FFVI, that the character's potential will usually mean jack in the end, isn't this also a trend that is shown in fighting games as well? Most abusable? Fastest? Deals the most damage in a short window frame?

    The same can also be said about rpg's as well, Cloud is obviously Top Tier because he can unleash OmniSlash, which can deal even more damage than Knights of Round Table when focused upon a single enemy, plus he's naturally quick. Wakka is Top Tier because in the end Attack Reels has the potential to deal the most damage in a single session. Ayla is one of the best, because she has the ability to reach 9999 and she can't even do that until she's like what...lvl 97 which gives her Iron Fist. Many characters don't show their true potential until fully lvled, thus the reason why I would rank them upon lvl as well.

    Locke is still for me, one of the best, because in the end, being capable of usually being the first character to strike, he comboed with genjiglove/offering will make him extremely powerful. I feel it's pratically no different from comparing characters in a rpg to a fighting game, the most abusable and most exploitable tatic will always make certain characters rise above the rest.

    Btw, against singled enemies or boss characters, Ultima is NOT the way, if you want it to be easier, I'll give a secret, maybe some of you may already know, but for those who dont. Easiest way to kill single enemy bosses is by using Vanish on them, and then X-Zone...the Ultimate Killer for it kills them instantly w/out having to resort to damaging them, that's the reason why I found magic to be pretty useless because this tatic made me skim through WoB and WoR with ease.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,180 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    box wrote:
    Anyone wanna do the FFX-2 dressphere tiers??? Mascot and trainer as well as the special ones are different for each character so I'll leave those alone.

    God: Gunner

    Top: Darknight, Alchemist, Berserker

    Upper Mid: Gun Mage, Samurai, Warrior

    Low Mid: Thief, White Mage, Lady Luck

    Low: Black mage, Songstress


    actually its more like

    top:
    Lady Luck - double items, double exp, double $$, bribe and theres a way to get the slots to whatever you want makes this the most broken dressphere ever. mighty guard +, auto life, ultima, flare, megalixer+, and CONGRATS broke the game.

    Mascot - high defense and high offense and high support

    Gunner - catnip + lv3 trigger happy kills anything in its path.

    Gun Mage - annihilator blue bullet + invincible does crazy damage. not as much as catnip + lv3 trigger, but this is a more versatile dressphere.

    2nd tier:

    Theif - First Strike, Flee, Initiative helps a lot in the 100 floor dungeon. and since its attack hits twice, it compliments well with the catnip

    Dark Knight - good defense, good damage but anything it can do, the other dresspheres can do better

    Alchemist - good for recovery but lady luck can do that better

    Samurai - fairly fast and powerful. you can reach max damage with momentum skill but it takes forever

    3rd tier:
    anything i didnt list

    Bottom:
    black mage - no flare, no ultima = no use
    songstress - useless for 98% of the game

    FF10 tiers:

    top:
    Wakka - Attack reels, can fight under water, only character with a long range weapon
    Yuna - Magus sister Mindy rushes that shit down with Passado, great celestial weapon
    Tidus - the only other character with a good overdrive and he can fight underwater

    mid:
    Rikku - just because she can fight underwater and her attack is quick
    Lulu - her overdrive is not too great and it takes her the longest to attack when spamming on quick hit but her celestial weapon is a lot like yunas.
    Auron - masamune with max hp doesnt do full damage really sucks

    low:
    the blue ape - just boring, even his celestial weapon is boring
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    I don't think tiering fighting games is the same as tiering an RPG. They share some aspects, but fighting games also have a bunch of things that simply don't translate well when applied to an RPG. What standards do you judge FF6 by?

    If you think leveling all 14 characters up to Level 99 and then comparing their damage potential in battle, well then that's your choice. Personally, I do think an FF6 tier based on maxing out your character's levels and stats is essentially moot. At that point, all your characters are doing 9999 per hit and essentially all of them are pretty much untouchable. Is anything really standing in your way then? I don't think so; and I don't think you can really judge how good a character is in FF6 if you decide to break the game and max everyone out.

    I didn't say equipment doesn't matter; but it's not all that matters. Locke's ability to equip the Illumina is indeed a plus on his side, but when characters like Terra (Morph, superior magic, superior other equips); Edgar (owning the WoB with Tools, superior other equips); Gau (Rages completely dominate WoB and are still overpowering in WoR)... equipment isn't everything.

    Again, with Locke, I'll agree that if you level him up to 99, give him the Atma Weapon, Valiant Knife, Offering, and Genji Glove, he is capable of the most damage at 9999 x8. But you're missing the very obvious point that it's not Locke that makes that combo good... it's the Level 99 part. At that point, the game is a joke and all the characters are basically god-like compared to the enemies. If you want to find the differences in these god-like characters in order to tier them, then go ahead, but ultimately that tier list doesn't mean much in general at that point.

    The same thing with Vanish/Doom; Vanish/X-Zone. That strategy speaks nothing of the character who uses it, and therefore most people ignore it when making a tier list (similar reasoning why people would probably ignore applying Esper stat-raising or Merit Award setups).
  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Thanks Ouro. I didn't realize Lady Luck was that powerful. How could you get the slots to do anything you want? I basically just stuck with Gunner + catnip and didn't really explore anything else. Is Samurai really that good? I always believed BErserker was better. Samurai didn't seem to get the damage in fast enough I found.
  • PsiPhiPsiPhi Joined: Posts: 824
    Magnifico wrote:
    ACK!! NO WAY!!! Cool to see a Metal Warriors fan, but you're soooo mistaken bro. Spider and Ballistic are the BEST, not worst =P.

    Top: Spider and Ballistic. Spider's infinite rocks. Ballistic totally shuts down Havoc, Drache, and Nitro. That's half the cast right there. I mean it. You have .000001% chance of beating my Ballistic with Havoc or Nitro, no matter WHO you are! Ballistic can have some SERIOUS problems with Prometheus tho on some levels, but since Prometheus gets slaughtered by most its not really a big deal... as an added bonus, these guys are the hardest to finish off when theyre in "critical" mode. This is what really pushes them over the edge.

    then Drache, he's failry good against most but USELESS against Ballistic. Most of his stock comes from the fact that he's pretty good against Spider.

    Havoc, Nitro. These guys lack the "one mistake and yuore dead" factor that Spider, Drache, and Prometheus have. And dont have the sheer power of Ballistic. So they clearly have to work harder

    Prometheus. He just gets abused by everyone. He basically NEEDS a anti gravity or speed burst to have any chance of winning, cause hes got NO MOBILITY!!! There are some levels where he can be extremely deadly though. On those levels it's justifid to bump him up with Havoc, Nitro, but no higher!

    The only matches that are really grossly imbalanced are Ballistic's (in his favor), the rest are very winnable but it takes a lot of work and careful play.

    Just friendly discussion. If you disagree feel free to retort, and I can go into better detail

    Reasons for my tierings:

    1) Drache - Top because of his speed and his drop attack. He can play run away with his ability to fire one way and move the other, or he can play aggressively and go for his drop attack (which will kill any other mech in one hit). Also, by tapping block you can clear bridges, thus slowing down all of the other mechs.

    2) Prometheus - High because of his strength at long and short range. Prometheus is the only mech that has bullets which travel all of the way across the screen, this means that all other mechs will probably take a few hits before they get close. Also his long range shots do the damage of 8 regular shots. His melee weapon will kill any mech if they are caught in it for more than a second which eliminates hth as an effective way of defeting him. His floating mines do enough damage to prevent enemys from trying to drop from above (except for Drache who can survive enough mines to destroy Prometheus unless Drache is dropping in a very high chasm). The best way to fight him is at midrange, where all other mechs will still take a lot of hits (and a whole lot of hits if Prometheus has seekers or bouncy bullets). His only real weakness is that he has to take elevators which leave him very vunerable. But you can win most matches on the bottom of the stage (since his slugs travel all of the way across the stage, then go eight ways when they explode). Also fighting Drache is a problem since Prometheus is so slow, hiding in a narrow corridor is the best way to fight him, and this isn't even all that effective since Drache can move quickly and strafe Prometheus.

    3) Nitro - Mid-High because of his versitility. He is quick, he can fly and his melee weapon has good range and damage. Because of his ability to fly he can rush the enemy mech down and melee them to death, this is especially effective when combined with a grenade launcher. He can also use his X button shield to mount a safe mid rang attack or he can use it to do damage to an enemy which is chasing him. The only mechs he really has a problem with are Prometheus because his fire kills Nitro quick, and Drache because his drop is always a risk.

    4) Havoc - Mid. Havoc's melee weapon is ok, better range than Nitro's but less damage. His bullets are stronger than the other mech's (and they look cooler too). He can't fly which doesn't enable him to chase other mechs. But his X button dash lets him move very fast and jump really far. Also when using his dash bullets he fires during it will queue up in front of him, this enables him to make a great hit and run mech.

    5) Spider - Mid-Low because he is too fragile. Spider is very fast, very manuverable, has great damage potential, his block makes him invisible, but his is just too fragile to be ranked higher. A direct attack against anything (except Ballistic) will get you killed. His best tactic is the super deadly web trap (I assume this is what you mean by infinite). The real problem with this is that it is only a true infinite versus Ballistic (in ball form) and Prometheus (in the air). The other mechs can either shoot their way out in the air, or melee out on the ground. Granted it does massive damage, but if the other player escapes spider is dead.

    6) Ballistic - Low because he can't move and shoot. His melee weapon is his only means of doing damage on the move, but it is so weak that it is better used as a means of moving around. The only time it is really effective is in narrow corridors and even then the other mech's melee weapon will probably kill Ballistic first. Charging his X button attack for a big shot then tapping it for a bunch of medium sized shots is his best tactic. However, this takes so long to charge that the other player has plenty of time to move in and melee you, unless they are Prometheus (but Prometheus wins if a fire fight so that really doesn't matter). Also, hit and run tactics don't work since it takes Ballistic so long to "unpack" before he can shoot.

    Feel free to argue with me, but it is going to take a lot of convincing for me to believe that Ballistic is top.
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Strike wrote:
    I don't think tiering fighting games is the same as tiering an RPG. They share some aspects, but fighting games also have a bunch of things that simply don't translate well when applied to an RPG. What standards do you judge FF6 by?

    If you think leveling all 14 characters up to Level 99 and then comparing their damage potential in battle, well then that's your choice. Personally, I do think an FF6 tier based on maxing out your character's levels and stats is essentially moot. At that point, all your characters are doing 9999 per hit and essentially all of them are pretty much untouchable. Is anything really standing in your way then? I don't think so; and I don't think you can really judge how good a character is in FF6 if you decide to break the game and max everyone out.

    I didn't say equipment doesn't matter; but it's not all that matters. Locke's ability to equip the Illumina is indeed a plus on his side, but when characters like Terra (Morph, superior magic, superior other equips); Edgar (owning the WoB with Tools, superior other equips); Gau (Rages completely dominate WoB and are still overpowering in WoR)... equipment isn't everything.

    Again, with Locke, I'll agree that if you level him up to 99, give him the Atma Weapon, Valiant Knife, Offering, and Genji Glove, he is capable of the most damage at 9999 x8. But you're missing the very obvious point that it's not Locke that makes that combo good... it's the Level 99 part. At that point, the game is a joke and all the characters are basically god-like compared to the enemies. If you want to find the differences in these god-like characters in order to tier them, then go ahead, but ultimately that tier list doesn't mean much in general at that point.

    The same thing with Vanish/Doom; Vanish/X-Zone. That strategy speaks nothing of the character who uses it, and therefore most people ignore it when making a tier list (similar reasoning why people would probably ignore applying Esper stat-raising or Merit Award setups).

    If we where to judge it by your standards then Ayla is garbage as I've stated. She is NOT Top Tier then, because it would be Chrono/Robo/lucca, with Ayla in middle tier, because her potential is not realized until she's in the later part of the game where she can deal 9999, that is one of the reasons why she's considered Top Tier...which is pratically maxed lvl. Because in the earlier parts of the game.

    I would even go as far as say that Magus is better than her, because Dark Matter has more damage potential then what she can deal in the earlier to mid lvls even almost until the end, it is the near the end of lvling up with Ayla that she truly shines, if we follow your theory, then Ayla isn't so good at all, charm would be one of her only real reasons to use her and her overall speed other than that, Lucca or Magus is a better character at the beginning then her because of their superior magic properties. My comparison of the fighting game status to an rpg has the same universal idea...abusable/fast/powerful. Don't the Top Tier's in fighting games share similar qualities as well as Rpg's to a certain extent?...isn't Chrono one of the fastest characters in the game, can deal exeptionally good pyshical damage, and has very powerful single special attacks and his skills only continue to grow all the way through to lvl **, I do believe so. Yes, they are two completely different games, they may not share 100% similarities but they share the same abusable/fast/high damage ideal purpose for stating a tier listing.

    As I've stated before, if maxing the lvls is NOT a considerment for tiering a list than that's pretty lame indeed. Maxed Lvl is Part of the game, and should be taken into affect, to say that it isn't is rather absurd, if you remember correctly, I ranked Locke as Top Dog because of his natural speed in the end, that coupled with the combo makes him one of the best, if not the best because he will always attack first...it is because he is naturally so fast and equipped with this combo that will make him better than the rest...thus the reason why I felt that speed was underrated when it shouldn't be at all. Try equipping the combo to Edgar, although he can deal the 8x 9999 damage, Locke will almost always attack before him, meaning that if Locke had the combo, he would be a far better character than having Edgar use the combo. The Big 4 are definetly above the rest, because they can equip things that the rest can't, which for me does indeed seperate them from the rest.

    "Specifics" of a character starts to mean jack towards the end of the lvls in FFVI, you are right, everyone will do ridiculous damage, however it's who does it the most and the fastest, and why shouldn't it be considered, it is indeed the character showing their "full" potential, that's the very reason why character specifics go out the window for FFVI imo.

    I stated the vanish/x-zone tatic is because it makes Magic pretty pathetic, another reason why Magic Power isn't a "huge" thing and should not be considered a huge factor for ranking a character, unless your attacking multiple enemies, however, against bosses, with the majority of them being solitary, the vanish/x-zone tatic will wipe them out far faster than using Ultima. If I can skim through the WoB with using this tatic and I got to the WoR with the vanish/x-zone tatic on lvl 14, it goes to show it's superiority over Magic Attacking because there is no way I can get to the WoR on lvl 14 by using magic attacks or pyshical damage, I feel that magic power shouldn't be considered so highly within this game when you have a powerful tool such as vanish/x-zone, in which everyone can use and exploit, and can be a far more effective tool, especially up against bosses.
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • RenegadeRenegade Joined: Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    bbq sauce wrote:
    Somebody with real knowledge of Final Fantasy Tactics (unlike me) should tier that game...

    I haven't played that game in years, and there's a lotta different combos you can make... Probably have to tier main characters (Ramza, Orlandu, the chick with the 'break' skills) and the generic jobs seperate.

    I'd assume out of the main characters, Orlandu is tops? Since he's got all the sword skills of the other characters, but even stronger..

    For jobs, I have no idea.... maybe Lancers for their reach and mobility, plus high attack, and their ability wear heavy armor..? Also, if say an enmey starts a summon, you can jump the turn prior to the summon and avoid any damage IIRC.


    Basic Character Classes/Skill Sets

    Best Skill Sets=
    God Tier= Math Skill
    Top Tier= Martial Arts, Draw Out
    Mid Tier= Throw, Geomancy, Battle Skill, Item, Steal, Jump,
    Low Tier= Black Magic, Summon, White Magic,
    Really Low Tier= Time Magic, Yin Yang Magic, Talk Skill, Dance, Basic Skill, Sing,
    Worthless=Charge

    Quick Explanation=
    Math skill is god. Instant, Full Screen, No MP Spells with a selection of 90% of the spells in the game.

    Martial Arts and Draw Out are great for their versatility, Healing, Support, Attack.
    Battle Skill is great w/ Two Swords to lower stats, thus cripping opponents (to perhaps steal). Item is instant healing/revive/cure status. Steal is essential to get good items. Jump takes too long at first and can't easy AT plan (have to do calculations). But with high speed/ Jav2, it's good.
    Throw and Geomancy are ok. Nothing special. Throw is nice with top tier swords... but that's alotta work (or alotta dupe) to get them.
    Magic Skill Sets are crap. Take too damn long. And without proper AT planning, you can really screw up. Only useful spells: BM= Flare WM=Holy and area affect cures. Summons take too long, and are weak, but Golem is hella good.

    Time/Yin Yang/Talk are all craptastic. Dance is worthless, no damage.

    Charge is the worst skill set ever. IT's the skillset that makes archers the worst class in the game by far. Anything over charge 4 you're not going to hit on anyone, and it doesn't do that much more damage.


    Best Special Characters

    God Tier= 1.Reis 2.Orlandu

    Orlandu because he's orlandu and can Night sword all day. Reis because she has two swords and train built in, gets huge stat bonuses, and can use Ribbon/Chantage to make her indestructible. Just put Martial Arts as her secondary skill. Watch the pain.

    Top Tier=Beowulf/Ramza

    Beowulf because Chicken, Shock, and Break are awesome and instant. Ramza's Scream, Yell, And Ultima are pretty good, but his equipment selection is what makes him awesome. He can wear knight swords and stat boosting robes and clothes naturally, the only character who can do so. His magic stat is great in this class, making him a no brainer choice to have math skill.


    Mid Tier= Agrias, Mustadio
    Both of these characters will do a TON of gruntwork in Chapters 2 and 3... but fall off in chapter 4. Agrias is Orlandu Lite (but can use ribbon/chantage). And Mustadio's Snipe skills work WAY more than they should at 8 squares away.

    Low Tier= Meliadoul, Worker 8, Cloud

    Meliadoul's Skills only work on humans, but on those, they're great. You may want to steal instead of break though. Worker 8 is immune to magic, but hurts himself when he attacks. Good range and power though. Cloud pretty much sucks except for Finishing Touch, which is an auto kill on any enemy. Materia Blade is a crappy weapon too.

    Worthless Tier= Rafa, Malak

    So seriously beyond shitty. Random area effect Low Damage skills? You have to be joking. Only good thing about them is Rafa is good at item finding.
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  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    If we where to judge it by your standards then Ayla is garbage as I've stated. She is NOT Top Tier then, because it would be Chrono/Robo/lucca, with Ayla in middle tier, because her potential is not realized until she's in the later part of the game where she can deal 9999, that is one of the reasons why she's considered Top Tier...which is pratically maxed lvl. Because in the earlier parts of the game.

    I would even go as far as say that Magus is better than her, because Dark Matter has more damage potential then what she can deal in the earlier to mid lvls even almost until the end, it is the near the end of lvling up with Ayla that she truly shines, if we follow your theory, then Ayla isn't so good at all, charm would be one of her only real reasons to use her and her overall speed other than that, Lucca or Magus is a better character at the beginning then her because of their superior magic properties. My comparison of the fighting game status to an rpg has the same universal idea...abusable/fast/powerful. Don't the Top Tier's in fighting games share similar qualities as well as Rpg's to a certain extent?...isn't Chrono one of the fastest characters in the game, can deal exeptionally good pyshical damage, and has very powerful single special attacks and his skills only continue to grow all the way through to lvl **, I do believe so. Yes, they are two completely different games, they may not share 100% similarities but they share the same abusable/fast/high damage ideal purpose for stating a tier listing.

    As I've stated before, if maxing the lvls is NOT a considerment for tiering a list than that's pretty lame indeed. Maxed Lvl is Part of the game, and should be taken into affect, to say that it isn't is rather absurd, if you remember correctly, I ranked Locke as Top Dog because of his natural speed in the end, that coupled with the combo makes him one of the best, if not the best because he will always attack first...it is because he is naturally so fast and equipped with this combo that will make him better than the rest...thus the reason why I felt that speed was underrated when it shouldn't be at all. Try equipping the combo to Edgar, although he can deal the 8x 9999 damage, Locke will almost always attack before him, meaning that if Locke had the combo, he would be a far better character than having Edgar use the combo. The Big 4 are definetly above the rest, because they can equip things that the rest can't, which for me does indeed seperate them from the rest.

    "Specifics" of a character starts to mean jack towards the end of the lvls in FFVI, you are right, everyone will do ridiculous damage, however it's who does it the most and the fastest, and why shouldn't it be considered, it is indeed the character showing their "full" potential, that's the very reason why character specifics go out the window for FFVI imo.

    I stated the vanish/x-zone tatic is because it makes Magic pretty pathetic, another reason why Magic Power isn't a "huge" thing and should not be considered a huge factor for ranking a character, unless your attacking multiple enemies, however, against bosses, with the majority of them being solitary, the vanish/x-zone tatic will wipe them out far faster than using Ultima. If I can skim through the WoB with using this tatic and I got to the WoR with the vanish/x-zone tatic on lvl 14, it goes to show it's superiority over Magic Attacking because there is no way I can get to the WoR on lvl 14 by using magic attacks or pyshical damage, I feel that magic power shouldn't be considered so highly within this game when you have a powerful tool such as vanish/x-zone, in which everyone can use and exploit, and can be a far more effective tool, especially up against bosses.

    You're right, I wouldn't rate Ayla as a top tier. She gets Bronze Fist at level 96; before that she gets Iron Fist at level 72; and for the rest of the time, she was stuck with just a regular Fist. By the time she's hitting for 9999 damage, you would've been lightyears passed where the game actually presented any sort of challenge to you. If I were to tier RPGs, I would generally base them around a "standard" or "normal" playthrough conditions. When you've gone out of your way to break the game by leveling everyone to the max to the point where everything has become a joke, then a tier based on that wouldn't really give anything informative other than: who can cause the most overkill.

    Again, you keep bringing up 9999 x8 with Locke while ignoring the very obvious fact that you overleveled your characters to a point where nothing poses a threat to any of them. At that point, it's not the character himself/herself that is good; it's the "Level 99" part that is making you do the damage. If you want to tier FF6 as "the person who can provide the most overkill when max leveled," yes, Locke will be #1. If you play through the game without maxing everyone out, and without abusing crap like Vanish/Doom, you'd actually see the worth of each character, and your opinion might change then.

    Locke's speed is constantly overrated. The way FF6's ATB system works is, as long as a character's ATB bar is full, he/she gets a turn. This takes into account all the attack animation as well. Locke's bar will probably fill up first because of his high speed, but battles will generally play out like this:

    1. Locke's ATB bar fills up first, Locke attacks (animates)
    2. Character 2's ATB bar fills up next, Character 2 attacks (animates)
    3. Characters 3-4; Enemies' ATB bars fill up, they attack in turn (animates)
    4. Locke, who probably had a full bar sometime during step 3 STILL has to wait for his turn because he has to wait for all the attack animation of step 3 to finish
    5. Repeat from step 1

    All Locke's speed does is probably ensure that he gets to attack first and that his bar fills up faster. On paper, it sounds really good; but in practice, it's really not as spectacular as everyone makes his speed out to be. Locke is still forced to wait until everyone who got a full ATB bar after him finishes their animation, at which point he'll go again and the cycle repeats.

    "Big 4" meaning those who can equip Illumina... that's a pretty shoddy top tier requirement. Especially because:

    1. You don't get the Illumina until over half the game is over, essentially ignoring the whole WoB and decent chunk of WoR.
    2. The way you're judging things is by maxing everyone's level to 99, which I've stated why that type of ranking really means jack about how the character plays.

    Vanish/Doom; Vanish/X-Zone is broken. I think if a person was serious about making a character tier list in FF6, they'd disregard that. I've gone through the game with most characters at Level 6 and never having to use Vanish/Doom; so don't think that it is impossible to beat the game without it. You underestimate magic because you used a broken glitch. You might as well just make your tier list:

    Top tier: Level 99 characters, Vanish/Doom
    Bottom tier: anything else

    But then again, what good is that tier list going to be?

    Magic is very good if you play through the game "normally," and that Magic Power stat affects a lot more attacks than just spells.
  • roninwarrior24roninwarrior24 Custom Title Joined: Posts: 635
    Star Wars KOTOR 2 Classes

    S rank:

    Jedi Consular/Sith Lord

    A Rank:

    Jedi Guardian/Jedi Weaponmaster
    Jedi Guardian/Sith Marauder

    B, C, D rank:

    Every other combination

    Jade Empire styles:

    S Rank:

    Jade Golem
    Mirabelle

    A Rank:

    Spirit Thief
    Hidden Fist
    Paralyzing Palm

    B Rank:

    Tempest
    Stone Immortal

    C Rank:

    Heavenly Wave
    Dragon Storm
    Dire Flame
    Ice Shard

    ? Rank:

    Everything else other than martial styles in that you need them.

    Fable:

    Enflame and Physical Shield are the god magics. Don't know about anything else.

    Halo 2:

    Sword and RL are top. Needlers suck.

    Can't think of any more.
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,180 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    box wrote:
    Thanks Ouro. I didn't realize Lady Luck was that powerful. How could you get the slots to do anything you want? I basically just stuck with Gunner + catnip and didn't really explore anything else. Is Samurai really that good? I always believed BErserker was better. Samurai didn't seem to get the damage in fast enough I found.

    just go to the slot command, keep pausing and unpausing the game until the desired slot to show up at the top row, then unpause the game, and press X. your desired slot will land on the bottom row. repeat on the other two columns. congrats, you just broke the game.

    i dont like berserker that much since they get raped by magic attacks and they dont have any magical attacks. samurai is sorta good since it has better stats, damage and speed than warrior but overall, not that great in the end.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    FInal Fantasy Tactics: ONly tier worth mentiuoning Math Skill / Ninja everything else is bunk and should be avoided. FFT was possibly the worst SRPG I ever played because of this.

    Actually in Fable the Gob Spell would be Multi Arrow. With Max Skill Skorm's Bow and a max level Multi Shot AT MOST you have to fire 1 shot at any normal enemy except that rock elemental, they take 1 full and then any other multishot(even weak ass power) hell even the Final Boss can only take 3 or 4 Shots from it. Plus you can easily have Skorm's bow by 2 1/2 hours in. by 3 you have racked up quite enough experiece on infinately spawning gaurds and now can own the game for free.

    Jade Empire: Of course we have to divide things up but really I am lazy and there is only 1 class worth mentioning in each category

    Martial Arts: Tiger Strike is the best. PERIOD it has the second best speed slightly above average Damage and the best unblockable martial arts attack

    Weapons: Dual swords / Mirabelle. The Dual swords are fast, allthough their single attack damage is lower one full combo from them does the second most(second only to dual axes which are horribly slow) the best speed and second best damage. . . its a no brainer. Mirabelle can drop things in one fairly fast explosive attack. its not that great all the time but there are certain large things its great for(Jade golems)

    Transforming: Jade Golem: The end. its literally better in every single way imaginable then the other transformations.

    Support.
    High: Dragon Storm Spirit theif
    Good enough: The stupid one you start with!
    Worthless and outclassed: Everything else.

    Dragon storm constantly saps HP and stuns, a quick Flciker into focus mode for a hit in, and adept style changing and harmonic combos and anything is going down.

    Spirit theif steals Chi HOT DAMN its kinda clunky but it STEALS CHI its free healing, free spells, free everything.

    Magics: Are mostly useless so dont bother. However if you really gotta know Tempest is the best while Fire is the worst

    Pokemon
    god: mewtwo
    top: Articuno Alakazzam
    High: Garados Charizard Jolteon
    everything else: Not Worth mentioning

    FF8 junctions
    God: Ultima
    top: Triple Life Curagga
    usefull: Reflect Double Haste

    Oh and Star ocean two lets clear some thing up

    broke ass godly: Chisato and Bowman. For two simple reasons Tear Gas and Explosion Pills. SPAM away
    Top: Rena, the ONLY healer in the game. Ashtom; best normal attack in the game abuse the double demon swords berzerk and slayer/meteor rings
    Not worth your time: Everyone else
    Why he in this game? Ernestl hes hard to get(near impossible if your not Trying like a madman) his attacks are garbage his weapons are worse and he denies you that last slot for Chisato. . . what a dueche

    MGS3
    The Joy >>> All

    Life
    Me > you > noobs > Somethign awful
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Renegade wrote:
    Basic Character Classes/Skill Sets

    Best Skill Sets=
    God Tier= Math Skill
    Top Tier= Martial Arts, Draw Out
    Mid Tier= Throw, Geomancy, Battle Skill, Item, Steal, Jump,
    Low Tier= Black Magic, Summon, White Magic,
    Really Low Tier= Time Magic, Yin Yang Magic, Talk Skill, Dance, Basic Skill, Sing,
    Worthless=Charge

    Quick Explanation=
    Math skill is god. Instant, Full Screen, No MP Spells with a selection of 90% of the spells in the game.

    Martial Arts and Draw Out are great for their versatility, Healing, Support, Attack.
    Battle Skill is great w/ Two Swords to lower stats, thus cripping opponents (to perhaps steal). Item is instant healing/revive/cure status. Steal is essential to get good items. Jump takes too long at first and can't easy AT plan (have to do calculations). But with high speed/ Jav2, it's good.
    Throw and Geomancy are ok. Nothing special. Throw is nice with top tier swords... but that's alotta work (or alotta dupe) to get them.
    Magic Skill Sets are crap. Take too damn long. And without proper AT planning, you can really screw up. Only useful spells: BM= Flare WM=Holy and area affect cures. Summons take too long, and are weak, but Golem is hella good.

    Time/Yin Yang/Talk are all craptastic. Dance is worthless, no damage.

    Charge is the worst skill set ever. IT's the skillset that makes archers the worst class in the game by far. Anything over charge 4 you're not going to hit on anyone, and it doesn't do that much more damage.


    Best Special Characters

    God Tier= 1.Reis 2.Orlandu

    Orlandu because he's orlandu and can Night sword all day. Reis because she has two swords and train built in, gets huge stat bonuses, and can use Ribbon/Chantage to make her indestructible. Just put Martial Arts as her secondary skill. Watch the pain.

    Top Tier=Beowulf/Ramza

    Beowulf because Chicken, Shock, and Break are awesome and instant. Ramza's Scream, Yell, And Ultima are pretty good, but his equipment selection is what makes him awesome. He can wear knight swords and stat boosting robes and clothes naturally, the only character who can do so. His magic stat is great in this class, making him a no brainer choice to have math skill.


    Mid Tier= Agrias, Mustadio
    Both of these characters will do a TON of gruntwork in Chapters 2 and 3... but fall off in chapter 4. Agrias is Orlandu Lite (but can use ribbon/chantage). And Mustadio's Snipe skills work WAY more than they should at 8 squares away.

    Low Tier= Meliadoul, Worker 8, Cloud

    Meliadoul's Skills only work on humans, but on those, they're great. You may want to steal instead of break though. Worker 8 is immune to magic, but hurts himself when he attacks. Good range and power though. Cloud pretty much sucks except for Finishing Touch, which is an auto kill on any enemy. Materia Blade is a crappy weapon too.

    Worthless Tier= Rafa, Malak

    So seriously beyond shitty. Random area effect Low Damage skills? You have to be joking. Only good thing about them is Rafa is good at item finding.


    A lot of this is very off. You clearly haven't played this game too in depth. First of all, let me give you some better rankings of the primary abilities.

    God Tier:
    Math Skill (You got this right.)

    Top Tier:
    Summon, Time Magic, Draw Out

    Mid-Tier:
    Punch Art, Yin-Yang Magic, White Magic, Item, Steal, Jump

    Low-Tier:
    Black Magic, Talk Skill, Dance, Sing, Geomancy, Throw

    Bottom-Tier:
    Basic Skill, Charge, Battle Skill

    Explanations:

    Math Skill = Completely broken.

    Summon = I can't believe you didn't put this tops. Huge AOE spells, huge AOE healing, Lich, and Golem. What more do you need? Oh, and with the exception of Lich, the spells NEVER miss, meaning they're completely reliable. And forget that AT preparation shit. If you're a good player, you won't have any problems with AT.

    Time Magic = Ok, first of all, you have Haste, which is very useful because you can Haste multiple allies in one casting. Now, you have Demi, which is a boss killer. Gravity spells destroy bosses in this game. Oh, and there's also Meteor, the most powerful regular spell in the game. It's slow, but it's cool, because Time Mages also come with Short Charge, so no big deal there. And really, that's all you'll need because Short Charge/Meteor/Demi beats the game for you on its own.

    Draw Out = Again, very versatile and very strong. It doesn't even matter that the swords break as long as you keep a good stock. You had this one right.

    Punch Art = Beginners always tend to think this is one of the best movesets in the game. It is very good, but it's not THAT good. Why? Because first of all, the damage isn't as high compared to the top movesets for damage, and it also isn't as high as a few of the lower movesets. And what else is special about it? Oh yeah, healing and reviving. Unfortunately, they aren't 100% chances, and they also have 0 vertical tolerance. This can be a big problem when you need it in the clutch. I would rather stick with the Summoner's huge AOE, 100%, Faith boosted Moogle for a good heal.

    Yin-Yang Magic = Heavily underrated. You've obviously never tried this moveset out to its fullest. First of all, you have Life-Drain, the best boss killer in the game. Then, you also have Pray Faith, which makes all magic users stronger. Oh, and then you can also disable the enemies in a billion different ways. Want to paralyze the enemy while you focus on another stronger one? Use Sleep. Want to finish one off quickly? Use Pray Faith/Petrify. This set is versatile. Oh, and did I mention Life Drain? It makes all bosses in the game a joke.

    White Magic = Healing and Holy. The only reason its not higher is because the healing CAN miss. But for offense, Holy is all you'll need.

    Item = The best healing in the game. Bottom-line. If this were a rating of classes instead of just the abilities, then Chemists would be god-tier because of Auto Potion.

    Steal = Forget about the useless shit you can steal. Steal Heart is ALL that matters. Charm is unbelievably powerful. Unbelievably powerful.

    Jump = It's pretty obvious why this thing is so good.

    Black Magic = First of all, this is the worst magic set by far. All of its spells can miss due to magic evasion, including its big spell, Flare. And... Flare sucks. You know why? Because Holy is better in every single way imaginable. It's stronger, faster, less MP, and cheaper to learn.

    Talk Skill = Generally useless, but you can lower/raise Br/Fa, which is very important. Otherwise, it's got some neat weapons, but none that are too reliable. However, it's better than the bottom-tier.

    Dance = Heavily underrated. Imagine this situation. A Dancer hiding in the far back using Nameless Dance over and over again, while your melee units rush up and fight. Not too fair for the enemies huh? Still, it's a bit too inconsistent and slow at times.

    Sing = Same basic thing, except its on your allies. And oh, Dance is better because crippling enemies is better than boosting allies.

    Geomancy = Good in every way, except that its very weak. True, it can be boosted to do a good deal, but so can just about everything else. Status-effects are very useful, however, but its not as reliable.

    Basic Skill = How is this above Charge? All you have is Accumulate, really. You can finish off a weakened enemy with Dash if you think you'll miss, but really, it sucks. And yes, you can knock people off ledges, but these are very specific situations.

    Charge = Pretty useless, but you can get in some Charges usually, boosting your damage, which can't be that bad.

    Battle Skill = The ONLY time this is useful is if the character with this equipped also has a gun. Otherwise, it's pointless. And, even with a gun, its unreliable. I mean, what would you rather do, break an enemy's weapon? Or throw a huge summon on him, killing him, and probably anyone else near him?


    Now, for the special characters.

    I'll start off by saying no character in this game is bad.

    God Tier:
    Orlandu = He's in this category alone. Nothing else but an Assassin is as good as this guy. He can beat the game by himself without any serious trouble and without changing classes. Can Reis do that?

    Top Tier:
    Reis = Unbelievable stat growth, and very good abilities. Dragoner as a class is pretty good, but she really shines when you level her up with that insane growth and make her into some other kind of killing machine.

    Beowulf = Stupidly good abilities. You got this one right.

    Mid Tier:
    Ramza = Really good stats and abilities, but just not as good as Beowulf's brokage or Reis's insane versatility.

    Agrias = You just don't beat Holy Sword.

    Worker 8 = This thing wrecks because its the best tank in the game. It also has huge range and power. Seriously, very, very few things can bring this down.

    Byblos = Shock and Parasite. Unfair.

    Low Tier:
    Rafa = Random? Yes. Low damage? Hell no! Again, you clearly haven't tried her out enough. Plus, did you know that Heaven Knights can equip sticks and have near Ninja level speed? Betcha didn't.

    Cloud = Needs Materia Blade, and even then, only Finishing Touch is worthwhile.

    Meliadoul = Her inability to use her skills on bosses really does drop her an entire tier.

    Mustadio = Can use guns and immobilizes enemies. Unfortunately, its not for the longest time, and can't do damage worth squat unless you have those elemental guns.

    Bottom Tier:
    Malak = Even he doesn't suck. It's basically Rafa with lower damage on everything and lower speed also. However, he can still use sticks and do quality damage if you lower his faith enough.

    There. I think that list works a little better.
  • MagnificoMagnifico Joined: Posts: 836
    PsiPhi wrote:
    Reasons for my tierings:

    1) Drache - Top because of his speed and his drop attack. He can play run away with his ability to fire one way and move the other, or he can play aggressively and go for his drop attack (which will kill any other mech in one hit). Also, by tapping block you can clear bridges, thus slowing down all of the other mechs.

    2) Prometheus - High because of his strength at long and short range. Prometheus is the only mech that has bullets which travel all of the way across the screen, this means that all other mechs will probably take a few hits before they get close. Also his long range shots do the damage of 8 regular shots. His melee weapon will kill any mech if they are caught in it for more than a second which eliminates hth as an effective way of defeting him. His floating mines do enough damage to prevent enemys from trying to drop from above (except for Drache who can survive enough mines to destroy Prometheus unless Drache is dropping in a very high chasm). The best way to fight him is at midrange, where all other mechs will still take a lot of hits (and a whole lot of hits if Prometheus has seekers or bouncy bullets). His only real weakness is that he has to take elevators which leave him very vunerable. But you can win most matches on the bottom of the stage (since his slugs travel all of the way across the stage, then go eight ways when they explode). Also fighting Drache is a problem since Prometheus is so slow, hiding in a narrow corridor is the best way to fight him, and this isn't even all that effective since Drache can move quickly and strafe Prometheus.

    3) Nitro - Mid-High because of his versitility. He is quick, he can fly and his melee weapon has good range and damage. Because of his ability to fly he can rush the enemy mech down and melee them to death, this is especially effective when combined with a grenade launcher. He can also use his X button shield to mount a safe mid rang attack or he can use it to do damage to an enemy which is chasing him. The only mechs he really has a problem with are Prometheus because his fire kills Nitro quick, and Drache because his drop is always a risk.

    4) Havoc - Mid. Havoc's melee weapon is ok, better range than Nitro's but less damage. His bullets are stronger than the other mech's (and they look cooler too). He can't fly which doesn't enable him to chase other mechs. But his X button dash lets him move very fast and jump really far. Also when using his dash bullets he fires during it will queue up in front of him, this enables him to make a great hit and run mech.

    5) Spider - Mid-Low because he is too fragile. Spider is very fast, very manuverable, has great damage potential, his block makes him invisible, but his is just too fragile to be ranked higher. A direct attack against anything (except Ballistic) will get you killed. His best tactic is the super deadly web trap (I assume this is what you mean by infinite). The real problem with this is that it is only a true infinite versus Ballistic (in ball form) and Prometheus (in the air). The other mechs can either shoot their way out in the air, or melee out on the ground. Granted it does massive damage, but if the other player escapes spider is dead.

    6) Ballistic - Low because he can't move and shoot. His melee weapon is his only means of doing damage on the move, but it is so weak that it is better used as a means of moving around. The only time it is really effective is in narrow corridors and even then the other mech's melee weapon will probably kill Ballistic first. Charging his X button attack for a big shot then tapping it for a bunch of medium sized shots is his best tactic. However, this takes so long to charge that the other player has plenty of time to move in and melee you, unless they are Prometheus (but Prometheus wins if a fire fight so that really doesn't matter). Also, hit and run tactics don't work since it takes Ballistic so long to "unpack" before he can shoot.

    Feel free to argue with me, but it is going to take a lot of convincing for me to believe that Ballistic is top.

    Drache: Landing a power dive in a high-level match is not too common of an occurance, but the threat of it still helps. It is downright impossible to land a power dive against Ballistic. But he's still good for the other reasons you mentioned. His problem being that he relies on items for real muscle, but because of his speed it's not a problem at all. Which is why i ranked him highly, but definitely not #1 because he loses to Ballistic without getting to say shit about it. IMO a character who has a 1:9 match cannot be #1, when their are other characters with no huge weakness.

    Prometheus: You say he beats all the bots at close range. This is true. Only a fool fights him at close range unless they're properly equipped though. Anyone with rockets can kill him for free using either a glitch with rockets. Without rockets, most bots can hit and run him to death on most levels. He's seriously not reliable. I've played many very very good players, and many of them don't even bother with Prometheus - if they scramble to him, they abandon him immediately and switch to a new mech. He is ok on some levels though.

    Nitro: His meele weapon is th strongest weapon in the game aside from a glitched rocket and power dive. It can kill Prometheus in just 3-4 swings. However, it's still one of the worst melee weapons. Havoc can EASILY dodge it. Drache will never get hit by it. Ballistic can't relaly be hit cleanly with it. It's ok against Spider. You won't get close enough to another Nitro. So fact is, it's very situational, and really onyl relevant against Spider and Prometheus. He is versatile, you are right about that. But he has too many bad matches. He is COMPLETELY outclassed by a Drache with ANY sort of weapon. He's not good against Ballistic, and Spider webs will kill him if hes caught. so in the end, hes just average.

    Havoc: Hit and run, hit and run, hit and run, with good power. Wher you have him ranked is about right. No arguments.

    Spider: There is no argument in the world to put him at #5. It's just not even imaginable, you must not have seen him played to his greatest potential. He's in fact not fragiel like you say. Drache and Prometheus are more fragile than he is, he has equal vitality to nitro and Havoc and Ballistic (sort of... Ballistic effectively has the most vitality because most attacks dont connect cleanly against him). His web trap CAN BE an infinite against almost every character if you do it right. A webbed Havoc, Spider, or Nitro is usually dead against a good Spider player. Drache can often escape. Ballistic can always escape if hes grounded. Prometheus can always escape. Anyone with rockets can always escape on the ground. So you're just flat out wrong about Spider's web trap, which explains why you ranked him so low. Oh yeah, Spider can use the rocket glitch more effectively than anyone else in the game.

    Ballistic: Ballistic does not NEEd to move and shoot. Ballistic's main weapon is his ball attack. There's not much relaly to explain here- its the most complicated weapon in the game, and if used right will outpower ANY OTHER MECH besidse Prometheus. So basically, EVERYONE except Prometheus is forced to fight an uphill battle against Ballistic. Prometheus is good because balling Prometheus is just foolish. Spider has a chance because he can run away with webs and stall. Nitro has a chance because he can stall with hlaser shields. Noone else can stop Ballistic from pounding them over, and over, and over until theyre dead. That's why hes top. The best Metal Warrior player in the world can't beat my Ballistic when hes Havoc or Drache.

    We can always play on ZSNES and i can show ya what i mean about Ballistic and Spider though. Really those are the only grossly inaccurate descriptions in your post. You're obviously a good player, you just haven't seen the two hardest to use bots used to their potential. Once you see how dangerous they can be you'll be on the right track =D. Playing good Spiders has made a great many players swear off the game forever
  • RenegadeRenegade Joined: Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    DaBoss... First, don't try to assume I don't know anything about the game b/c my opinions are different than yours.

    You went into that whole spiel, but our opinions are different on only a couple of issues.

    Reis vs Orlandu= Honestly, It all comes down to Reis being the best female character, and she can equip Chantage and Ribbon. She can't die, and is immune to all status effects. So, yes, she can beat the game by herself. Innate two swords is amazing. Her innate MA and MP are better than Orlandu's, so if you choose to use other skill sets (Math/Draw/Punch), she is amazing at them. Orlandu has better range (better move, more reach on skills and can use Move +3), and a VASTLY better skill set. But I give a slight edge to Reis due to being able to equip Chantage/Ribbon. I've seen Orlandu humbled plenty of times by Celia and Lede.

    Anyway... On Rafa/Malak. I tried so hard to make them work. Yes, I know they have sticks. Only thing I liked about them, really. I tried to make Malak into a 0 faith/97 brave blade grasping Hell Knight... and he still didn't pull his weight.



    ***PHYSICAL SKILLS****
    Punch Art- Sheer Versatility. decent damage, some range, and some healing properties. Sure, the vert range sucks. Gotta gameplan for that. But the versatility makes the set. And you can regain MP with Chakra. Which is very useful.

    Basic Skill vs Charge... at least I can use accumulate. Charge is "free" damage, I guess... but so is accumulate. Accumulate is also the best JP builder in the game. Adv= basic skill.

    Battle Skill- I can see where a lotta people say this skill set isn't good... but time and time again I go back to it. I don't use it w/ guns... I use Ninja's and/or 2 swords. Ninja's work best since they move far and fast. Two swipes of Power Break cripples any enemy in the game, and you can do whatever you want (build JP, steal, item find, whatever)

    ***MAGICAL SKILLS***
    Magic in General= I think you overrate. Charge times are the suck, when there are so many skills (even with AOE) that do damage NOW, when you need to kill enemies, as opposed to when enemies can move, you mage get attacked, etc. Also, with few exceptions... classes with good MA can't take a damn hit, and if you want high faith to cast magic well, you take MORE damage from the magic. Lose/Lose situation, IMO.

    Time Mage= I will grant you I haven't messed around w/ Demi much. But most of the bosses die really quickly regardless. Haste is good. Meteor takes too much damn time. So, IMO, only thing this SkillSet has (i guess outside of boss battles) is haste and a really slow super spell. Wheee.

    Yin Yang= Best thing about this set is that it doesn't rely on MA. So fighters and such can use it with good effeciancy. Unfortunately, you'd rather attack with those guys and KILL the enemy, not put them to sleep or some such. While I guess they can be useful, the presence of Beowulf makes this skill set obsolete.

    Black Magic- Flare and Frog are the only Decent abilities, IMO since it locks on, and won't hurt your party. The Charge times suck, IMO

    White- Cure and Holy, You're right. But they have charge times... zzzz..

    Summon Magic= Honestly, I like it better than black or white. And you can't Math it either, so that makes it unique. But... the MP costs and AT are VERY prohibitive. Can't do both Short Charge AND Half of MP. Golem is by far the best skill. Almost worth having someone with the skill set alone. But I always find myself either planning 2 minutes for AT times, or having a Summon only hit one person. The Ifrit/Shiva/Titan trio are fast, but do crap for damage. Anything more than that, you're using two turns to do one spell. I hate that. And having Short Charge as ESSENTIAL to use skills (Limit.. cough..) does not a good skill set make.


    But yeah. Thanks for engaging in the discussion. That's just how I see things. Don't assume i'm a beginner though. I've master filed this game a number of times. I just have different opinions on usefulness.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Double Dragon 3
    Chin > all
  • Higher-JinHigher-Jin MvC2 Moderator Joined: Posts: 1,953
    Renegade wrote:
    DaBoss... First, don't try to assume I don't know anything about the game b/c my opinions are different than yours.

    You went into that whole spiel, but our opinions are different on only a couple of issues.

    Reis vs Orlandu= Honestly, It all comes down to Reis being the best female character, and she can equip Chantage and Ribbon. She can't die, and is immune to all status effects. So, yes, she can beat the game by herself. Innate two swords is amazing. Her innate MA and MP are better than Orlandu's, so if you choose to use other skill sets (Math/Draw/Punch), she is amazing at them. Orlandu has better range (better move, more reach on skills and can use Move +3), and a VASTLY better skill set. But I give a slight edge to Reis due to being able to equip Chantage/Ribbon. I've seen Orlandu humbled plenty of times by Celia and Lede.

    Anyway... On Rafa/Malak. I tried so hard to make them work. Yes, I know they have sticks. Only thing I liked about them, really. I tried to make Malak into a 0 faith/97 brave blade grasping Hell Knight... and he still didn't pull his weight.



    ***PHYSICAL SKILLS****
    Punch Art- Sheer Versatility. decent damage, some range, and some healing properties. Sure, the vert range sucks. Gotta gameplan for that. But the versatility makes the set. And you can regain MP with Chakra. Which is very useful.

    Basic Skill vs Charge... at least I can use accumulate. Charge is "free" damage, I guess... but so is accumulate. Accumulate is also the best JP builder in the game. Adv= basic skill.

    Battle Skill- I can see where a lotta people say this skill set isn't good... but time and time again I go back to it. I don't use it w/ guns... I use Ninja's and/or 2 swords. Ninja's work best since they move far and fast. Two swipes of Power Break cripples any enemy in the game, and you can do whatever you want (build JP, steal, item find, whatever)

    ***MAGICAL SKILLS***
    Magic in General= I think you overrate. Charge times are the suck, when there are so many skills (even with AOE) that do damage NOW, when you need to kill enemies, as opposed to when enemies can move, you mage get attacked, etc. Also, with few exceptions... classes with good MA can't take a damn hit, and if you want high faith to cast magic well, you take MORE damage from the magic. Lose/Lose situation, IMO.

    Time Mage= I will grant you I haven't messed around w/ Demi much. But most of the bosses die really quickly regardless. Haste is good. Meteor takes too much damn time. So, IMO, only thing this SkillSet has (i guess outside of boss battles) is haste and a really slow super spell. Wheee.

    Yin Yang= Best thing about this set is that it doesn't rely on MA. So fighters and such can use it with good effeciancy. Unfortunately, you'd rather attack with those guys and KILL the enemy, not put them to sleep or some such. While I guess they can be useful, the presence of Beowulf makes this skill set obsolete.

    Black Magic- Flare and Frog are the only Decent abilities, IMO since it locks on, and won't hurt your party. The Charge times suck, IMO

    White- Cure and Holy, You're right. But they have charge times... zzzz..

    Summon Magic= Honestly, I like it better than black or white. And you can't Math it either, so that makes it unique. But... the MP costs and AT are VERY prohibitive. Can't do both Short Charge AND Half of MP. Golem is by far the best skill. Almost worth having someone with the skill set alone. But I always find myself either planning 2 minutes for AT times, or having a Summon only hit one person. The Ifrit/Shiva/Titan trio are fast, but do crap for damage. Anything more than that, you're using two turns to do one spell. I hate that. And having Short Charge as ESSENTIAL to use skills (Limit.. cough..) does not a good skill set make.


    But yeah. Thanks for engaging in the discussion. That's just how I see things. Don't assume i'm a beginner though. I've master filed this game a number of times. I just have different opinions on usefulness.

    I experimented with short charge + move mp up for the whole "half mp" problem. Priest seems to suck but I never got holy. Raise sucks and Raise 2 is really slow and has a chance to fail aswell.
    The defensive bonuses are pretty crummy IMO and really almost everything he can do has a decent chance of missing at least when I played him (i restarted just so i could try to make a good priest but I don't have wall, reraise, or holy yet)
    Either we all live in a decent world, or nobody does. - George Orwell
  • Terry_nbTerry_nb ... Joined: Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Diablo 2 LOD (from best to worst, all IMO)

    sorc (fire spell damage is pure ownage thx to synergies)
    barb/amazon
    pala/necro
    assasin
    druid (only 2 builds are effective)
    SFA 4 needs to be made ...
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Renegade wrote:
    DaBoss... First, don't try to assume I don't know anything about the game b/c my opinions are different than yours.

    You went into that whole spiel, but our opinions are different on only a couple of issues.

    Reis vs Orlandu= Honestly, It all comes down to Reis being the best female character, and she can equip Chantage and Ribbon. She can't die, and is immune to all status effects. So, yes, she can beat the game by herself. Innate two swords is amazing. Her innate MA and MP are better than Orlandu's, so if you choose to use other skill sets (Math/Draw/Punch), she is amazing at them. Orlandu has better range (better move, more reach on skills and can use Move +3), and a VASTLY better skill set. But I give a slight edge to Reis due to being able to equip Chantage/Ribbon. I've seen Orlandu humbled plenty of times by Celia and Lede.

    Anyway... On Rafa/Malak. I tried so hard to make them work. Yes, I know they have sticks. Only thing I liked about them, really. I tried to make Malak into a 0 faith/97 brave blade grasping Hell Knight... and he still didn't pull his weight.



    ***PHYSICAL SKILLS****
    Punch Art- Sheer Versatility. decent damage, some range, and some healing properties. Sure, the vert range sucks. Gotta gameplan for that. But the versatility makes the set. And you can regain MP with Chakra. Which is very useful.

    Basic Skill vs Charge... at least I can use accumulate. Charge is "free" damage, I guess... but so is accumulate. Accumulate is also the best JP builder in the game. Adv= basic skill.

    Battle Skill- I can see where a lotta people say this skill set isn't good... but time and time again I go back to it. I don't use it w/ guns... I use Ninja's and/or 2 swords. Ninja's work best since they move far and fast. Two swipes of Power Break cripples any enemy in the game, and you can do whatever you want (build JP, steal, item find, whatever)

    ***MAGICAL SKILLS***
    Magic in General= I think you overrate. Charge times are the suck, when there are so many skills (even with AOE) that do damage NOW, when you need to kill enemies, as opposed to when enemies can move, you mage get attacked, etc. Also, with few exceptions... classes with good MA can't take a damn hit, and if you want high faith to cast magic well, you take MORE damage from the magic. Lose/Lose situation, IMO.

    Time Mage= I will grant you I haven't messed around w/ Demi much. But most of the bosses die really quickly regardless. Haste is good. Meteor takes too much damn time. So, IMO, only thing this SkillSet has (i guess outside of boss battles) is haste and a really slow super spell. Wheee.

    Yin Yang= Best thing about this set is that it doesn't rely on MA. So fighters and such can use it with good effeciancy. Unfortunately, you'd rather attack with those guys and KILL the enemy, not put them to sleep or some such. While I guess they can be useful, the presence of Beowulf makes this skill set obsolete.

    Black Magic- Flare and Frog are the only Decent abilities, IMO since it locks on, and won't hurt your party. The Charge times suck, IMO

    White- Cure and Holy, You're right. But they have charge times... zzzz..

    Summon Magic= Honestly, I like it better than black or white. And you can't Math it either, so that makes it unique. But... the MP costs and AT are VERY prohibitive. Can't do both Short Charge AND Half of MP. Golem is by far the best skill. Almost worth having someone with the skill set alone. But I always find myself either planning 2 minutes for AT times, or having a Summon only hit one person. The Ifrit/Shiva/Titan trio are fast, but do crap for damage. Anything more than that, you're using two turns to do one spell. I hate that. And having Short Charge as ESSENTIAL to use skills (Limit.. cough..) does not a good skill set make.


    But yeah. Thanks for engaging in the discussion. That's just how I see things. Don't assume i'm a beginner though. I've master filed this game a number of times. I just have different opinions on usefulness.


    Hey, sorry if I sounded like I was offending. I wasn't trying to. Now, first of all, I wanna start off by saying that FFT is my favorite game. I've spent tons and tons of time on the game itself and have gone through countless of challenges and all that other jazz. So, some of the stuff I'm saying isn't even opinion. I've tested it so many times that it's basically fact. Now, you bring up some good points, so I'll address those issues.

    Orlandu vs. Reis: Honestly, the only serious advantage Reis has on Orlandu is Chantage/Ribbon. Everything else is seriously moot because Orlandu is such an unbelievable killing machine that everything else pales in comparison. And you also stated her innate MP and MA are better and then listed other skillsets that she could use, those being Punch Art/Draw Out/Math Skill. Draw Out is good, but All Swordskill is better. Punch Art is based off of PA, so Orlandu would be the better Monk. And Math Skill is completely moot because its so broken that ANYONE can be good with Math Skill. Trust me, a Math Skill'ing Rafa is a GOD. Also, Orlandu getting fucked up by the Assassins doesn't really mean anything because if you know what you're doing, not even your Squire should get screwed by those two. Their patterns are completely predictable. And finally, when I said Orlandu was able to beat the game by himself, I meant without switching classes. Reis can't do that. But still, that's a moot point either way.

    Rafa/Malak: Well, all I can say is that they're not completely worthless. But if you just don't like them, then there's nothing much I can do about that.

    Punch Art: I agree and basically said all that anyways.

    Basic Skill: I can agree with that, but Basic Skill is definitely not a whole tier higher ":^)"

    Battle Skill: Using it with two swords is just a bad strat, sorry. Wouldn't you much rather attack the enemy instead? And if you wanna cripple them to do stuff with them, use Sleep, Paralyze, etc. Also, Speed Break is a better crippler anyways.

    Magic in General: All wrong man. Charge times are bad, but not bad to the point where the magic themselves are bad. Charge times can be gotten around with good play skill. And yes, there are abilities that work instantly, but generally, those abilities are not as good. And again, with good playing, it shouldn't matter if you have high faith. It all comes down to how good you are at the game.

    Time Mage = Short Charge/Meteor is faster than Holy. I kid you not. So you have a boss killer, Haste, and pretty darn fast super spell.

    Yin Yang = Your argument works, but in that case, Battle Skill is even stupider because this set is MUCH better at crippling than Battle Skill is. And yes, Beowulf does make this set obsolete, but there is only one Beowulf. You can have multiple Oracles. And you can use this set for Life Drain, if nothing else. Life Drain is tied for the fastest spell in the game, does 25% of max hp, and absorbs the damage back. It MURDERS bosses. I kill Altima2 with this thing before she MOVES.

    Black Magic = Yeah, it's not too good.

    White Magic = Charge times don't matter when you're good.

    Summon = COMPLETELY wrong here. First of all, you don't need Short Charge here. The summons aren't that slow. And I don't know what you mean when you say Ifrit/Shiva/Ramuh do low damage. You can boost your character till they do really, really good damage for their speed and MP cost. Plus, they NEVER miss and can hit a SHITload of enemies in one casting. Plus, there is Golem and Moogle. Don't forget, MA can be boosted. You really never need to use anything above Titan and this set is still TOO good.

    I'm not assuming you're a beginner, but I can tell you haven't tried everything out to its fullest. I can't blame you; there's a LOT of shit to experiment with.

    And honestly, master filing really isn't anything. This game is easy to begin with, so taking on a challenge is better. Such as beating the game without switching classes, etc.

    And yes, it's fun to talk about this kind of stuff ":^)"
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Back on the DW topic...

    I've played DW 2-5, and I gotta tell ya...
    no matter HOW many times you guys talk smack about the lack of speed on the Wei side...

    I will STILL own you with Xu Zhu. That's right. The fat guy.
    Reason being, I can parry. Reason being, I don't NEED to be fast. You guys can run to me...I'll be waiting and block ya...or better yet, parry your attack. Plus, charge in the air is just awesomely good with him -- I call it the Pogo-Ball. So, go ahead...you can have your spear characters, and flashy quick happy characters -- but unless you're a Musou Token charged-up Lu-Bu...

    I'm not worried one bit. ;)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    DW tiers should go like this.........

    God: Lu bu

    And then comes these factors:

    Crowd clearing supers
    Spears
    Good Triangle move

    If you don't have a good crowd clearing super you, such as Zhou Tai then you pretty much suck. Spears have huge range and attack random fools. A good triangle move that can dizzy people or crowd clear is good.

    This game is pretty much decided by beating gate captains, which is pretty easy to do. Broken game, but one of my favorites.
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Strike wrote:
    You're right, I wouldn't rate Ayla as a top tier. She gets Bronze Fist at level 96; before that she gets Iron Fist at level 72; and for the rest of the time, she was stuck with just a regular Fist. By the time she's hitting for 9999 damage, you would've been lightyears passed where the game actually presented any sort of challenge to you. If I were to tier RPGs, I would generally base them around a "standard" or "normal" playthrough conditions. When you've gone out of your way to break the game by leveling everyone to the max to the point where everything has become a joke, then a tier based on that wouldn't really give anything informative other than: who can cause the most overkill.

    Again, you keep bringing up 9999 x8 with Locke while ignoring the very obvious fact that you overleveled your characters to a point where nothing poses a threat to any of them. At that point, it's not the character himself/herself that is good; it's the "Level 99" part that is making you do the damage. If you want to tier FF6 as "the person who can provide the most overkill when max leveled," yes, Locke will be #1. If you play through the game without maxing everyone out, and without abusing crap like Vanish/Doom, you'd actually see the worth of each character, and your opinion might change then.

    Locke's speed is constantly overrated. The way FF6's ATB system works is, as long as a character's ATB bar is full, he/she gets a turn. This takes into account all the attack animation as well. Locke's bar will probably fill up first because of his high speed, but battles will generally play out like this:

    1. Locke's ATB bar fills up first, Locke attacks (animates)
    2. Character 2's ATB bar fills up next, Character 2 attacks (animates)
    3. Characters 3-4; Enemies' ATB bars fill up, they attack in turn (animates)
    4. Locke, who probably had a full bar sometime during step 3 STILL has to wait for his turn because he has to wait for all the attack animation of step 3 to finish
    5. Repeat from step 1

    All Locke's speed does is probably ensure that he gets to attack first and that his bar fills up faster. On paper, it sounds really good; but in practice, it's really not as spectacular as everyone makes his speed out to be. Locke is still forced to wait until everyone who got a full ATB bar after him finishes their animation, at which point he'll go again and the cycle repeats.

    "Big 4" meaning those who can equip Illumina... that's a pretty shoddy top tier requirement. Especially because:

    1. You don't get the Illumina until over half the game is over, essentially ignoring the whole WoB and decent chunk of WoR.
    2. The way you're judging things is by maxing everyone's level to 99, which I've stated why that type of ranking really means jack about how the character plays.

    Vanish/Doom; Vanish/X-Zone is broken. I think if a person was serious about making a character tier list in FF6, they'd disregard that. I've gone through the game with most characters at Level 6 and never having to use Vanish/Doom; so don't think that it is impossible to beat the game without it. You underestimate magic because you used a broken glitch. You might as well just make your tier list:

    Top tier: Level 99 characters, Vanish/Doom
    Bottom tier: anything else

    But then again, what good is that tier list going to be?

    Magic is very good if you play through the game "normally," and that Magic Power stat affects a lot more attacks than just spells.

    Yes or No buddy, do the skills of the individual mean jack crap in the end? I believe the answer is yes, and just because I use the vanish/x-zone I'm not "playing" it normally...wtf are you talking about, mind telling me in a game where people "will" not use anything to there advantage...yes, I thought so. Vanish/X-Zone is still part of the game and thus should be considered into the factor, excluding this would be comparable to excluding Magneto's infinite saying it's not "normal" because it is a glitch is it not and thus shouldn't be considered normal... :lame: .

    I have played it straight through to the end, however maxing the characters of an rpg has usually always been a priority. Character's worth are only decent from WoB to what...slightly after into WoR because everyone starts to do insane damage, in the end, it's who deals the most damage and the fastest. However my saying is this, can you say that a character is not good until you have completely showed their full potential? Which is the very reason why I lvled them up to lvl 99...and wow...not everyone is as shitty as you thought they would be, everyone can be good, this is where speed comes into play...wow, everyone can be Top Tier :encore: , so to put, in FFVI, at their full potential, everyone can beat ass, period, because character individuality means jack in the end, at their Full Potential.

    Locke is set at the top, because he's the quickest in the end, wether you love it or hate it, with the equips, he can own, while everyone else can just sit and watch :clap: .
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    If you take a few hours of your time to purposely overlevel your characters to level 99, then yes, each character's unique abilities will disappear. Hence the whole point of NOT tiering FF6 characters at level 99 when everything has become a joke.

    Vanish/Doom; Vanish/X-Zone is broken. Everyone knows that it is. In a tier about how good a CHARACTER is in FF6, Vanish/Doom speaks nothing about the user. Vanish/Doom is not comparable Magneto's infinites because infinities are actually part of normal MvC2 play. When you can Vanish/Doom your way through any enemy AND boss in the game, that should tell you how broken it is. Vanish/Doom is more comparable to MvC2's Gambit glitch and winning with Time Over than anything else.

    Again, you've maxed your characters to the point where their indivuality doesn't matter, where the enemies don't matter, and where you're only ranking who provides the most overkill. How a character operates at Level 99 means jack shit because what kind of tier list based on overleveled characters would it prove? Just that Locke can do 9999 x8 instead of another character doing 9999 x4? When either is enough to kill just about anything. At that point, tiering them becomes moot; a tier of godcharacters has no practical importance or relevance. The game is a joke then.

    You obviously didn't read or understand how I showed that Locke's speed isn't much of a benefit. Unless you purposely take the time out to level him up with Odin and gain around +30 or more speed through Esper bonuses to the point where Locke can act his turn, and fill his ATB bar a second time before the other character's are finished filling their first bar, all Locke's high speed ensures is that he'll get to attack first. His normal speed is not fast enough that he'll be getting double turns for your other character's one turn simply due to how FF6's ATB system works. Once Locke is finished attacking, he has to wait for all the animation of the other characters and enemies to finish, even if he has a full bar, before he can attack again.

    Locke's often misplaced at the top only because people either:
    1. overrate his speed stat, thinking that high speed = more attacks in battle
    2. people overlevel him to the point where the game doesn't matter anymore and show that Locke can provide the most overkill
    3. people think that equipping the Illumina is the only factor for determining top tier

    Or some combination of the three above. So basically, your tier list is this:

    Top tier: Level 99 characters who can do the most overkill
    Middle tier: Vanish/Doom; other Level 99 characters
    Bottom: nothing

    Ain't really much of a tier list. But hey, if you like to tier the game when your characters are all basically the same, and the only difference is based on their equips, go right ahead. It's just that kind of tier list ultimately doesn't give any information about each individual character, and therefore is kinda worthless.
  • noodlemannoodleman Cancer of GTASF Joined: Posts: 5,165
    for FFT:

    why did no one mention teleport and blade grasp? Teleport is awesome in Deep Dungeon since there is no height restriction and you can walk through walls. As long as you stay within 4 panels, teleport pretty much never fails, 5 gets iffy, but still relatively consistent.

    Blade Grasp makes you immune to 90% of all enemies in the game.

    female black mage with math skill is by far the best class/skill combo. I would rank them (with the right equipment) above any special characters, even TG Cid. reasoning? ribbon makes things broken, faith rod makes her magic never miss. She doesn't need to move to kill people, meaning she recovers AT faster. Add in some haste, and she'll clear the board long before TG Cid can.

    I was never a fan of Worker 8. you can't haste him/heal him without someone using the Item skill, which is a waste of a slot. he doesn't move very fast/far, can't learn anything useful, and stats were mediocore compared to broken items that you can equip onto other characters.

    For chrono trigger:

    Marle + Lucca combo is awesome. Antipode team spell is awesome.
    Basically Crono attacking/lumminare all day, and just antipode away and you win.

    FF6: I dunno, i cheated with game genie to dup items :P

    Disgaea: Majin > * You only need majin's, and yoshi tsuna is the most broken weapon ever.
    "You'd be better off falling asleep with the taste of my crotch in your mouth." - Miyavi

    "no no! it don't hurt if spoon is greasy!" - Zangief Chronicles.
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    noodleman wrote:
    for FFT:

    why did no one mention teleport and blade grasp? Teleport is awesome in Deep Dungeon since there is no height restriction and you can walk through walls. As long as you stay within 4 panels, teleport pretty much never fails, 5 gets iffy, but still relatively consistent.

    Blade Grasp makes you immune to 90% of all enemies in the game.

    female black mage with math skill is by far the best class/skill combo. I would rank them (with the right equipment) above any special characters, even TG Cid. reasoning? ribbon makes things broken, faith rod makes her magic never miss. She doesn't need to move to kill people, meaning she recovers AT faster. Add in some haste, and she'll clear the board long before TG Cid can.

    I was never a fan of Worker 8. you can't haste him/heal him without someone using the Item skill, which is a waste of a slot. he doesn't move very fast/far, can't learn anything useful, and stats were mediocore compared to broken items that you can equip onto other characters.

    For chrono trigger:

    Marle + Lucca combo is awesome. Antipode team spell is awesome.
    Basically Crono attacking/lumminare all day, and just antipode away and you win.

    FF6: I dunno, i cheated with game genie to dup items :P

    Disgaea: Majin > * You only need majin's, and yoshi tsuna is the most broken weapon ever.


    Well, we were comparing primary skillsets. And TG Cid is god among all the special characters, but anything with Math Skill is better.
  • noodlemannoodleman Cancer of GTASF Joined: Posts: 5,165
    DaBoss wrote:
    Well, we were comparing primary skillsets. And TG Cid is god among all the special characters, but anything with Math Skill is better.

    except TG Cid with Math skill hahaha
    "You'd be better off falling asleep with the taste of my crotch in your mouth." - Miyavi

    "no no! it don't hurt if spoon is greasy!" - Zangief Chronicles.
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    PiMacleod wrote:
    Back on the DW topic...

    I've played DW 2-5, and I gotta tell ya...
    no matter HOW many times you guys talk smack about the lack of speed on the Wei side...

    I will STILL own you with Xu Zhu. That's right. The fat guy.
    Reason being, I can parry. Reason being, I don't NEED to be fast. You guys can run to me...I'll be waiting and block ya...or better yet, parry your attack. Plus, charge in the air is just awesomely good with him -- I call it the Pogo-Ball. So, go ahead...you can have your spear characters, and flashy quick happy characters -- but unless you're a Musou Token charged-up Lu-Bu...

    I'm not worried one bit. ;)

    Maybe one on one. Considering that the games (especially DW5) are based more on beating lots of little shits than one on one fights, speed and range are very important. Granted, he is a lot beefier in DW5 than in previous incarnations due to ultimate weapon being light, but the Wei kingdom still pales in comparison to the others (except the other group).

    In DW5, btw, Zuo Ci is the ultimate broken character (think Ma Chao charge on Shadow Harness, but mobile), puts Lu Bu to shame. Lu Bu is still second best however.

    For FF6, Locke's speed does come into play because the majority of the time, he attacks first, regardless of what you're fighting. Fight a Chaos Dragon or a Brachosaur, and you want that first attack. Locke is fast enough that he almost always has first attack in battle, which a lot of characters can't do. Locke has (as do all of the big four) an incredibly good equipment set. He is one of the few characters with defense piercing weapons (two, Atma and Valiant), has access to heavy armor (Force and Genji being among the best armors), and is one of the few characters who can still be effective in the back row (due to boomerangs, yeah, they kinda suck). The only time he is not all that great is in the WoB, but so are most of the cast. Once you get him in WoR, he is definitely one of the best.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Exclude leveling up to 99 (or ever taking the time to excessively over-level); and exclude Vanish/Doom, and then ask yourself, "What can Locke do striking first that makes him so good?" IMO, not much that someone else can't do better. I don't think Chaos Dragons are that bad of a fight where one would need a first-strike in order to win. Brachosaur, I would agree that having the first strike would be a major advantage because "Diaster" can wipe out an entire party if not properly prepared. But then again, how often do you fight Brachosaurs? The fight itself is limited to the Dragon Forest, which is primarily only used for power-leveling anyway, and even then isn't it a 1-in-8 chance to even fight one as the Tyranosaurs are much more prevalent?

    Locke's good equipment set speaks more about the equipment than it does him. Yes, he can use Illumina, Force Armor, Force Shield... but Terra, Celes, and Edgar can also, and outdo Locke in other areas and in the entire WoB. Not to mention by the time most people do get the Illumina, the game is nearly over.

    I wouldn't say most of the cast suck in the WoB; that would imply the enemies have the upper hand over the majority of your party for over half the game. Edgar's tools; Gau's Rages (Templar, Rhodox, Marshal, StrayCat, Pterdon, Aspik, Behemoth... not to mention all the free level 2 spells before you even get close to getting Espers); Shadow's Throw (99 Shirukens costs only 3000 GP) and Interceptor; Terra and Celes' Magic + Earrings; Mog's Dances... all these things completely own the WoB enemies. Locke's really got nothing in WoB over these characters, and in WoR, it's not until you get the Offering that he'll start to be more useful.

    Access to heavy armor is kind of a moot point too when 7 people out of 14 can use the Genji Armor (half the cast); and 6 people out of 14 can use the Force Armor (almost half the cast). And of the people who can't use these armors, their selection isn't in any way a crappier selection. Mog and Gau (and Umaro, but he's worthless) can equip with Snow Mufflers. Relm gets Tao Robe (plus Magus Rod, plus CatHood) to equal Force Armor's +30% Magic Block. Again, saying that Locke can use Illumina, or wear Force Armor, or wear the Force Shield isn't really speaking much about him, but more about how powerful those equipment pieces are. And like I said before, Terra, Celes, and Edgar can all equip them, and have other things going for them above what Locke has.

    As for being effective in the back row. In the entire WoB, Edgar, Shadow, Gau, Terra, Celes, Sabin, Setzer, and Mog can all function to their fullest in the back row. Edgar with Tools; Shadow with Throw; Gau with Rages; Terra and Celes with Magic; Sabin with Blitz; Setzer with Slots; Mog with Dance. In the WoR; it's not much different. Pretty much anyone is still very viable and functional in the rear:

    Terra, Celes, Relm, and Strago can should still use Magic in the back row
    Edgar should still use Tools to use in the back row
    Gau should still use his Rages in the back row
    Shadow should still use Throw in the back row
    Mog can now Dragoon Boots/Dragoon Horn jump safely from the back row
    Setzer can Fixed Dice/Offering from the back row
    Sabin should still use Blitz from the back row
    Gogo should be Mimicing others from the back row

    So that leaves Locke, Cyan, and Umaro. Out of these, Umaro is pretty much crap, and only Cyan should ever really stay in the front do to his SwdTechs being effected by row damage.

    All in all; I'll admit that if you raise Locke to level 99, he has the best potential for overkill (Atma Weapon, Valiant Knife, Offering, Genji Glove). But I have to reiterate again that, tiering characters at that point seems kinda pointless.
  • Aoishi2ALAoishi2AL Joined: Posts: 280
    Strike wrote:
    Locke's often misplaced at the top only because people either:
    1. overrate his speed stat, thinking that high speed = more attacks in battle
    2. people overlevel him to the point where the game doesn't matter anymore and show that Locke can provide the most overkill
    3. people think that equipping the Illumina is the only factor for determining top tier

    Or some combination of the three above. So basically, your tier list is this:

    Top tier: Level 99 characters who can do the most overkill
    Middle tier: Vanish/Doom; other Level 99 characters
    Bottom: nothing

    Ain't really much of a tier list. But hey, if you like to tier the game when your characters are all basically the same, and the only difference is based on their equips, go right ahead. It's just that kind of tier list ultimately doesn't give any information about each individual character, and therefore is kinda worthless.

    You can get to the WoR without leveling up past level 16 in some cases. Compare Locke to all the other characters on level 16, give him Illumina and give other characters their best weapons. The Weapons a character can equip makes a considerable amount of difference, even if they were all on level one, the weapon gives somebody an unfair advantage that the other characters don't have. The same thing could be said about Ultima, it doesn't do 9999 damage if the caster is at level 20 and by the time Terra would get it she would be overleveled as well (around level 80), which is a double standard. But if you compare the damage that a level 10 Sabin would do with Ultima then compared with a level 10 Relm then of course the proper deduction would be that Relm is the better character.
    It's true that most characters can deal 9999 damage at level 99, but even if you don't level them up, just being able to use Illumina makes one character better than the rest. An example of this would be seen in Foucalt's description of mechanistical power which is somewhat like this:

    A Modern Artist (the use of firearms) vs. Martial Artist

    The weapon that a person uses can give them a substantial increase of power, now a person with a gun can obviously kill a person armed with his fists or any non-projecticle weapon. Compare the mechanistical power to Illumina and there you have it. And in MvC2 terms it would be like comparing:

    Cable vs. Ryu

    It is the same dilemma all over again. Cable has a big laser beam that is quicker than Ryu's. Cable has a gun and range, while Ryu just has his fists, considering the fact that Cable can also use Ahvb which makes him 5x better than Ryu.

    The Point is without the best relics in the game, Locke is still better than rest of the characters. His overall stats are better than the rest of them, the weapons and armor he can equip is better, better speed (considering if the rest of the characters do or don't use the Genji or Economizer combos), and in general better stats. Even though he isn't nearly as good as the rest of the characters in WoB, in the WoR all the equipment he gets makes him shine.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    You can get to the WoR with characters at Level 6. I have. I don't see what your point is about level 16 characters. All Locke has in a low-level game is that he is one of the characters who can equip with 128% Magic Block. Damage-wise, at that low level, he isn't causing much, at least compared to the other 128% Magic Block characters (Terra, Celes, Edgar, Relm).

    You talk about double-standards, but I haven't really applied any, since I have neither tiered the game at extreme max-levels; at extreme low-levels; nor on a natural magic game. I don't quite fully understand your comparsion because you've seem to have done all three. I'm assuming you're judging a high level Locke to:
    1. A level 20 Terra casting Ultima not hitting 9999 (actually, a Morphed level 20 Terra properly equipped WILL hit 9999)
    2. A natural magic game Terra getting Ultima at level 80

    You're analogies don't exactly make sense because I don't equate the Illumina to being a machine gun, while everything else in the game are empty fists. I further don't equate Locke to being Cable, making everyone else a scrub character like Ryu (or 5 times worse).

    So what standard exactly are you applying to the game when you tier? I've stated mine; just a regular playthrough of the game, learning magic through Espers, not ever taking time out to gain levels, not abusing Vanish/Doom. I also take into account the WoB, not just how a character can operate in the final portions of the game, since that would be ignoring more than half of the game itself. I'd figure that wouldd be the most fair and sensible way of tier the game because:
    1. Most people don't play the game with restrictions (low-level; natural magic, so a tier based on them would be rather narrow viewed)
    2. Tiering the game when everyone is at max level and max-Esper altered stats is pretty pointless because everyone at that point is just overkilling enemies

    I figure a good endgame level playing the game that way would probably be around level 40s or so.

    As such, let's just compare everyone at Level 40. That way, none of them are too low-leveled; none of them are obscenely overleveled where the game doesn't matter anymore. Would you agree this is a fair level to compare everyone to?

    What does a level 40 Locke have that trumps him over everyone else?

    The Illumina? Okay, it's the best weapon in the game. Locke has good vigor, so he should be fighting with it. And it gives him stat boosts, ignores defense, and allows him to attack in the back row. So how much damage exactly will a Level 40 Locke do with Illumina equipped?

    Locke's Equipment:
    Illumina (+7 Vigor, Speed, Staminia, Magic Power; 50% MBlock)
    Aegis Shield (40% MBlock)
    Bard's Hat (10% MBlock)
    Force Armor (30% MBlock)
    Relics: Hero Ring; Offering

    Locke's Stats:
    Vigor: 37 (44)
    Speed: 40 (47)
    Stamina: 31 (38)
    Magic Power: 28 (35)
    Battle Power: 14 (255; maxed due to Illumina)
    MBlock: 2% (132%)

    With this setup, Locke has over 128% MBlock, making him virtually untouchable by anything other than unblockable attacks. I'm assuming that you're stressing the importance of 128% MBlock because you're touting the Force Armor, which is basically only good because of the MBlock it gives. For this reason, I did not set Locke up with the Genji Glove (not that a level 40 Locke even with Genji Glove/Offering combined can do anything even close to the damage a Level 40 Setzer can with Offering/Fixed Dice alone).

    Vigor*2 = 88
    Battle Power = 255
    Attack = 88 + 255 = 343
    Offering Penalty = (-1/2 Damage)
    Hero Ring Bonus = (+5/4 Damage)
    Illumina Critical hit multiplier = null (because of Offering)

    Damage = Battle Power + [(Level * Level * Attack) / 256] * (3/2)

    Raw Damage = 255 + [(40 * 40 * 343) / 256] * (3/2) = 3598
    Damage (Offering Penalty; Hero Ring Bonus) 3598 * (1/2) * (5/4) = 2249

    A Level 40 Locke with Offering with that setup above will hit for around 2249 x4 = 8996 total damage.

    Now let's compare him to another Illumina holder, a Level 40 Celes, who most here considered the least useful of the so-called "Big 4":

    Celes' Equipment:
    Illumina (+7 Vigor, Speed, Staminia, Magic Power; 50% MBlock; 255 Battle Power)
    Force Shield (+50% MBlock)
    Mystery Veil (+1 Speed; +3 Magic Power; +10 MBlock)
    Minerva (+1 Vigor; +2 Speed; +1 Stamina; +4 Magic Power; 10% MBlock; +25% Max MP)
    Relics: Gem Box; Hero Ring

    Celes' Stats:
    Vigor: 34 (42)
    Speed: 34 (44)
    Stamina: 31 (39)
    Magic Power: 36 (50)
    Battle Power: 16 (255; maxed due to Illumina)
    MBlock: 9% (129%)

    With this setup, Celes also has over 128% MBlock like Locke, meaning she's basically untouchable. The key differences are, she gets a +25% max MP boost thanks to Minerva, and her Magic Power is boosted way high thanks to the rest of her equips.

    Ultima Spell Power: 150
    Hero Ring Bonus: (+5/4 Damage)

    Damage = Spell Power * 4 + [(Level * Magic Power * Spell Power) / 32)]

    Raw Damage = 150 * 4 + [(40 * 50 * 150) / 32] = 9975
    Hero Ring Bonus = 9975 * (5/4) = 12469 = 9999

    A Level 40 Celes with Gem Box equipped will be hitting for 9999 x2 damage casting Ultima twice. If you wanted to get really cheap; replace the Hero Ring with the Economizer, and she'll still hit for around 9975 x2 for only 2 MP.

    Even physically attacking with the Illumina; Celes won't be far off of Locke's damage.

    Vigor*2 = 84
    Battle Power = 255
    Attack = 84 + 255 = 339
    Hero Ring Bonus = (+5/4 Damage)
    Illumina Critical Hit multiplier = 2

    Damage = Battle Power + [(Level * Level * Attack) / 256] * (3/2)

    Raw Damage = 255 + [(40 * 40 * 339) / 256] * (3/2) = 3433

    Hero Ring Bonus = 3433 * (5/4) = 4291

    Critical Hit multiplier = 4291 * 2 = 8582

    So a Level 40 Celes hits for around 400 points less than a Level 40 Locke with thier opitimal setups; only Celes has a much more damage magic power attack in Ultima x2 that Locke doesn't; plus has better MP thanks to Minerva's +25% Max MP.

    If you want, I can compare a level 40 Relm:

    Relm's Equipment:
    Magus Rod (Magic Power +7; 30% MBlock)
    Force Shield (+50% MBlock)
    Cat Hood (Magic Power +4; 10% MBlock)
    Tao Robe (10% MBlock)
    Relics: Gem Box; White Cape

    Relm's Stats:
    Vigor: 26
    Speed: 34
    Stamina: 22
    Magic Power: 44 (55)
    MBlock: 9% (119%)

    Relm doesn't quite reach 128% MBlock with this setup (she could if you replace the Gem Box with another White Cape); but this setup is clearly more advantageous to her damage dealing and 119% MBlock will be blocking nearly anything that comes her way anyway.

    Ultima Spell Power: 150

    Damage = Spell Power * 4 + [(Level * Magic Power * Spell Power) / 32)]

    Raw Damage = 150 * 4 + [(40 * 55 * 150) / 32] = 10913 = 9999

    A Level 40 Relm with Gem Box equipped casting Ultima twice will hit for 9999 x2 damage. If you want to sacrifice 10% MBlock safety, you could replace the White Cape with an Econimizer and she would be able to do the combo for 2 MP.

    The facts are simple: Locke is only "top tier" if you over level everyone to level 99; and even then, "top tier" just means that he provides the most overkill at 9999 x8. His equipment is nothing that special. Out of his armors, 7/14 people can equip his Genji Armor; 6/14 people can equip with his Force Armor; and the rest who couldn't use either have their own respectable armor selections. Locke can use the Illumina, but the other 3 who can also equip it, do a much better job in other areas, and didn't lag behind in the WoB like Locke did. And finally, his speed is extremely overrated due to how the ATB system actually functions; meaning at best, Locke will get to strike first (only practical purpose this would have is in a Brachosaur fight or if you wanted to run away), but he will not be getting extra turns because of his "great speed."

    Locke is not trash, but he's not top tier either. Unless you like to power level and break the game, there are definitely other more viable and useful characters than him.
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