Thanks Ouro. I didn't realize Lady Luck was that powerful. How could you get the slots to do anything you want? I basically just stuck with Gunner + catnip and didn't really explore anything else. Is Samurai really that good? I always believed BErserker was better. Samurai didn't seem to get the damage in fast enough I found.
Basic Character Classes/Skill Sets
Best Skill Sets=
God Tier= Math Skill
Top Tier= Martial Arts, Draw Out
Mid Tier= Throw, Geomancy, Battle Skill, Item, Steal, Jump,
Low Tier= Black Magic, Summon, White Magic,
Really Low Tier= Time Magic, Yin Yang Magic, Talk Skill, Dance, Basic Skill, Sing,
Math skill is god. Instant, Full Screen, No MP Spells with a selection of 90% of the spells in the game.
Martial Arts and Draw Out are great for their versatility, Healing, Support, Attack.
Battle Skill is great w/ Two Swords to lower stats, thus cripping opponents (to perhaps steal). Item is instant healing/revive/cure status. Steal is essential to get good items. Jump takes too long at first and can't easy AT plan (have to do calculations). But with high speed/ Jav2, it's good.
Throw and Geomancy are ok. Nothing special. Throw is nice with top tier swords... but that's alotta work (or alotta dupe) to get them.
Magic Skill Sets are crap. Take too damn long. And without proper AT planning, you can really screw up. Only useful spells: BM= Flare WM=Holy and area affect cures. Summons take too long, and are weak, but Golem is hella good.
Time/Yin Yang/Talk are all craptastic. Dance is worthless, no damage.
Charge is the worst skill set ever. IT's the skillset that makes archers the worst class in the game by far. Anything over charge 4 you're not going to hit on anyone, and it doesn't do that much more damage.
Best Special Characters
God Tier= 1.Reis 2.Orlandu
Orlandu because he's orlandu and can Night sword all day. Reis because she has two swords and train built in, gets huge stat bonuses, and can use Ribbon/Chantage to make her indestructible. Just put Martial Arts as her secondary skill. Watch the pain.
Beowulf because Chicken, Shock, and Break are awesome and instant. Ramza's Scream, Yell, And Ultima are pretty good, but his equipment selection is what makes him awesome. He can wear knight swords and stat boosting robes and clothes naturally, the only character who can do so. His magic stat is great in this class, making him a no brainer choice to have math skill.
Mid Tier= Agrias, Mustadio
Both of these characters will do a TON of gruntwork in Chapters 2 and 3... but fall off in chapter 4. Agrias is Orlandu Lite (but can use ribbon/chantage). And Mustadio's Snipe skills work WAY more than they should at 8 squares away.
Low Tier= Meliadoul, Worker 8, Cloud
Meliadoul's Skills only work on humans, but on those, they're great. You may want to steal instead of break though. Worker 8 is immune to magic, but hurts himself when he attacks. Good range and power though. Cloud pretty much sucks except for Finishing Touch, which is an auto kill on any enemy. Materia Blade is a crappy weapon too.
Worthless Tier= Rafa, Malak
So seriously beyond shitty. Random area effect Low Damage skills? You have to be joking. Only good thing about them is Rafa is good at item finding.
Reasons for my tierings:
1) Drache - Top because of his speed and his drop attack. He can play run away with his ability to fire one way and move the other, or he can play aggressively and go for his drop attack (which will kill any other mech in one hit). Also, by tapping block you can clear bridges, thus slowing down all of the other mechs.
2) Prometheus - High because of his strength at long and short range. Prometheus is the only mech that has bullets which travel all of the way across the screen, this means that all other mechs will probably take a few hits before they get close. Also his long range shots do the damage of 8 regular shots. His melee weapon will kill any mech if they are caught in it for more than a second which eliminates hth as an effective way of defeting him. His floating mines do enough damage to prevent enemys from trying to drop from above (except for Drache who can survive enough mines to destroy Prometheus unless Drache is dropping in a very high chasm). The best way to fight him is at midrange, where all other mechs will still take a lot of hits (and a whole lot of hits if Prometheus has seekers or bouncy bullets). His only real weakness is that he has to take elevators which leave him very vunerable. But you can win most matches on the bottom of the stage (since his slugs travel all of the way across the stage, then go eight ways when they explode). Also fighting Drache is a problem since Prometheus is so slow, hiding in a narrow corridor is the best way to fight him, and this isn't even all that effective since Drache can move quickly and strafe Prometheus.
3) Nitro - Mid-High because of his versitility. He is quick, he can fly and his melee weapon has good range and damage. Because of his ability to fly he can rush the enemy mech down and melee them to death, this is especially effective when combined with a grenade launcher. He can also use his X button shield to mount a safe mid rang attack or he can use it to do damage to an enemy which is chasing him. The only mechs he really has a problem with are Prometheus because his fire kills Nitro quick, and Drache because his drop is always a risk.
4) Havoc - Mid. Havoc's melee weapon is ok, better range than Nitro's but less damage. His bullets are stronger than the other mech's (and they look cooler too). He can't fly which doesn't enable him to chase other mechs. But his X button dash lets him move very fast and jump really far. Also when using his dash bullets he fires during it will queue up in front of him, this enables him to make a great hit and run mech.
5) Spider - Mid-Low because he is too fragile. Spider is very fast, very manuverable, has great damage potential, his block makes him invisible, but his is just too fragile to be ranked higher. A direct attack against anything (except Ballistic) will get you killed. His best tactic is the super deadly web trap (I assume this is what you mean by infinite). The real problem with this is that it is only a true infinite versus Ballistic (in ball form) and Prometheus (in the air). The other mechs can either shoot their way out in the air, or melee out on the ground. Granted it does massive damage, but if the other player escapes spider is dead.
6) Ballistic - Low because he can't move and shoot. His melee weapon is his only means of doing damage on the move, but it is so weak that it is better used as a means of moving around. The only time it is really effective is in narrow corridors and even then the other mech's melee weapon will probably kill Ballistic first. Charging his X button attack for a big shot then tapping it for a bunch of medium sized shots is his best tactic. However, this takes so long to charge that the other player has plenty of time to move in and melee you, unless they are Prometheus (but Prometheus wins if a fire fight so that really doesn't matter). Also, hit and run tactics don't work since it takes Ballistic so long to "unpack" before he can shoot.
Feel free to argue with me, but it is going to take a lot of convincing for me to believe that Ballistic is top.
DaBoss... First, don't try to assume I don't know anything about the game b/c my opinions are different than yours.
You went into that whole spiel, but our opinions are different on only a couple of issues.
Reis vs Orlandu= Honestly, It all comes down to Reis being the best female character, and she can equip Chantage and Ribbon. She can't die, and is immune to all status effects. So, yes, she can beat the game by herself. Innate two swords is amazing. Her innate MA and MP are better than Orlandu's, so if you choose to use other skill sets (Math/Draw/Punch), she is amazing at them. Orlandu has better range (better move, more reach on skills and can use Move +3), and a VASTLY better skill set. But I give a slight edge to Reis due to being able to equip Chantage/Ribbon. I've seen Orlandu humbled plenty of times by Celia and Lede.
Anyway... On Rafa/Malak. I tried so hard to make them work. Yes, I know they have sticks. Only thing I liked about them, really. I tried to make Malak into a 0 faith/97 brave blade grasping Hell Knight... and he still didn't pull his weight.
Punch Art- Sheer Versatility. decent damage, some range, and some healing properties. Sure, the vert range sucks. Gotta gameplan for that. But the versatility makes the set. And you can regain MP with Chakra. Which is very useful.
Basic Skill vs Charge... at least I can use accumulate. Charge is "free" damage, I guess... but so is accumulate. Accumulate is also the best JP builder in the game. Adv= basic skill.
Battle Skill- I can see where a lotta people say this skill set isn't good... but time and time again I go back to it. I don't use it w/ guns... I use Ninja's and/or 2 swords. Ninja's work best since they move far and fast. Two swipes of Power Break cripples any enemy in the game, and you can do whatever you want (build JP, steal, item find, whatever)
Magic in General= I think you overrate. Charge times are the suck, when there are so many skills (even with AOE) that do damage NOW, when you need to kill enemies, as opposed to when enemies can move, you mage get attacked, etc. Also, with few exceptions... classes with good MA can't take a damn hit, and if you want high faith to cast magic well, you take MORE damage from the magic. Lose/Lose situation, IMO.
Time Mage= I will grant you I haven't messed around w/ Demi much. But most of the bosses die really quickly regardless. Haste is good. Meteor takes too much damn time. So, IMO, only thing this SkillSet has (i guess outside of boss battles) is haste and a really slow super spell. Wheee.
Yin Yang= Best thing about this set is that it doesn't rely on MA. So fighters and such can use it with good effeciancy. Unfortunately, you'd rather attack with those guys and KILL the enemy, not put them to sleep or some such. While I guess they can be useful, the presence of Beowulf makes this skill set obsolete.
Black Magic- Flare and Frog are the only Decent abilities, IMO since it locks on, and won't hurt your party. The Charge times suck, IMO
White- Cure and Holy, You're right. But they have charge times... zzzz..
Summon Magic= Honestly, I like it better than black or white. And you can't Math it either, so that makes it unique. But... the MP costs and AT are VERY prohibitive. Can't do both Short Charge AND Half of MP. Golem is by far the best skill. Almost worth having someone with the skill set alone. But I always find myself either planning 2 minutes for AT times, or having a Summon only hit one person. The Ifrit/Shiva/Titan trio are fast, but do crap for damage. Anything more than that, you're using two turns to do one spell. I hate that. And having Short Charge as ESSENTIAL to use skills (Limit.. cough..) does not a good skill set make.
But yeah. Thanks for engaging in the discussion. That's just how I see things. Don't assume i'm a beginner though. I've master filed this game a number of times. I just have different opinions on usefulness.
You're right, I wouldn't rate Ayla as a top tier. She gets Bronze Fist at level 96; before that she gets Iron Fist at level 72; and for the rest of the time, she was stuck with just a regular Fist. By the time she's hitting for 9999 damage, you would've been lightyears passed where the game actually presented any sort of challenge to you. If I were to tier RPGs, I would generally base them around a "standard" or "normal" playthrough conditions. When you've gone out of your way to break the game by leveling everyone to the max to the point where everything has become a joke, then a tier based on that wouldn't really give anything informative other than: who can cause the most overkill.
Again, you keep bringing up 9999 x8 with Locke while ignoring the very obvious fact that you overleveled your characters to a point where nothing poses a threat to any of them. At that point, it's not the character himself/herself that is good; it's the "Level 99" part that is making you do the damage. If you want to tier FF6 as "the person who can provide the most overkill when max leveled," yes, Locke will be #1. If you play through the game without maxing everyone out, and without abusing crap like Vanish/Doom, you'd actually see the worth of each character, and your opinion might change then.
Locke's speed is constantly overrated. The way FF6's ATB system works is, as long as a character's ATB bar is full, he/she gets a turn. This takes into account all the attack animation as well. Locke's bar will probably fill up first because of his high speed, but battles will generally play out like this:
1. Locke's ATB bar fills up first, Locke attacks (animates)
2. Character 2's ATB bar fills up next, Character 2 attacks (animates)
3. Characters 3-4; Enemies' ATB bars fill up, they attack in turn (animates)
4. Locke, who probably had a full bar sometime during step 3 STILL has to wait for his turn because he has to wait for all the attack animation of step 3 to finish
5. Repeat from step 1
All Locke's speed does is probably ensure that he gets to attack first and that his bar fills up faster. On paper, it sounds really good; but in practice, it's really not as spectacular as everyone makes his speed out to be. Locke is still forced to wait until everyone who got a full ATB bar after him finishes their animation, at which point he'll go again and the cycle repeats.
"Big 4" meaning those who can equip Illumina... that's a pretty shoddy top tier requirement. Especially because:
1. You don't get the Illumina until over half the game is over, essentially ignoring the whole WoB and decent chunk of WoR.
2. The way you're judging things is by maxing everyone's level to 99, which I've stated why that type of ranking really means jack about how the character plays.
Vanish/Doom; Vanish/X-Zone is broken. I think if a person was serious about making a character tier list in FF6, they'd disregard that. I've gone through the game with most characters at Level 6 and never having to use Vanish/Doom; so don't think that it is impossible to beat the game without it. You underestimate magic because you used a broken glitch. You might as well just make your tier list:
Top tier: Level 99 characters, Vanish/Doom
Bottom tier: anything else
But then again, what good is that tier list going to be?
Magic is very good if you play through the game "normally," and that Magic Power stat affects a lot more attacks than just spells.
why did no one mention teleport and blade grasp? Teleport is awesome in Deep Dungeon since there is no height restriction and you can walk through walls. As long as you stay within 4 panels, teleport pretty much never fails, 5 gets iffy, but still relatively consistent.
Blade Grasp makes you immune to 90% of all enemies in the game.
female black mage with math skill is by far the best class/skill combo. I would rank them (with the right equipment) above any special characters, even TG Cid. reasoning? ribbon makes things broken, faith rod makes her magic never miss. She doesn't need to move to kill people, meaning she recovers AT faster. Add in some haste, and she'll clear the board long before TG Cid can.
I was never a fan of Worker 8. you can't haste him/heal him without someone using the Item skill, which is a waste of a slot. he doesn't move very fast/far, can't learn anything useful, and stats were mediocore compared to broken items that you can equip onto other characters.
For chrono trigger:
Marle + Lucca combo is awesome. Antipode team spell is awesome.
Basically Crono attacking/lumminare all day, and just antipode away and you win.
FF6: I dunno, i cheated with game genie to dup items :P
Disgaea: Majin > * You only need majin's, and yoshi tsuna is the most broken weapon ever.
Well, we were comparing primary skillsets. And TG Cid is god among all the special characters, but anything with Math Skill is better.
Back on the DW topic...
I've played DW 2-5, and I gotta tell ya...
no matter HOW many times you guys talk smack about the lack of speed on the Wei side...
I will STILL own you with Xu Zhu. That's right. The fat guy.
Reason being, I can parry. Reason being, I don't NEED to be fast. You guys can run to me...I'll be waiting and block ya...or better yet, parry your attack. Plus, charge in the air is just awesomely good with him -- I call it the Pogo-Ball. So, go ahead...you can have your spear characters, and flashy quick happy characters -- but unless you're a Musou Token charged-up Lu-Bu...
I'm not worried one bit.
Locke's often misplaced at the top only because people either:
1. overrate his speed stat, thinking that high speed = more attacks in battle
2. people overlevel him to the point where the game doesn't matter anymore and show that Locke can provide the most overkill
3. people think that equipping the Illumina is the only factor for determining top tier
Or some combination of the three above. So basically, your tier list is this:
Top tier: Level 99 characters who can do the most overkill
Middle tier: Vanish/Doom; other Level 99 characters
Ain't really much of a tier list. But hey, if you like to tier the game when your characters are all basically the same, and the only difference is based on their equips, go right ahead. It's just that kind of tier list ultimately doesn't give any information about each individual character, and therefore is kinda worthless.
if you are gonna tier it by usefulness throughout the game, then edgar comes out on top with gau not far behind. sabin should be up there since hes superior than most characters throughout the game. seriously, whats keeping sabin down besides the fact he cant equip some of the best equipments. but by the time you got everyones best equips, you are on your way of being godlike. terra and celes are like clones but they have above average stats and has good equips.
mog is nothing really spectacular in the first half of the game but shines in the 2nd half due to moogle charm. relm is good from the start since her magic and speed is extremely high. locke sucks for majority of the game (shitty magic, shitty attack power) but since he can steal another pair of genji gloves, he still have some use. setzer is semi-useful. he doesnt really shine until you get his fixed dice and his slots are decent despite the fact that sometimes its rigged and can cost you your game.
shadow isnt too useful since hes on and off your team and you wont get him till the very end. same with gogo but even worse since s/he wont have any esper bonuses (even if you arent trying to make your characters like demi-gods, the bonuses does add up over time).
top: edgar, gau, sabin, terra, celes
2nd: relm, mog
3rd: setzer, shadow, locke,
bottom: cyan, gogo, strago, umaru
You can get to the WoR with characters at Level 6. I have. I don't see what your point is about level 16 characters. All Locke has in a low-level game is that he is one of the characters who can equip with 128% Magic Block. Damage-wise, at that low level, he isn't causing much, at least compared to the other 128% Magic Block characters (Terra, Celes, Edgar, Relm).
You talk about double-standards, but I haven't really applied any, since I have neither tiered the game at extreme max-levels; at extreme low-levels; nor on a natural magic game. I don't quite fully understand your comparsion because you've seem to have done all three. I'm assuming you're judging a high level Locke to:
1. A level 20 Terra casting Ultima not hitting 9999 (actually, a Morphed level 20 Terra properly equipped WILL hit 9999)
2. A natural magic game Terra getting Ultima at level 80
You're analogies don't exactly make sense because I don't equate the Illumina to being a machine gun, while everything else in the game are empty fists. I further don't equate Locke to being Cable, making everyone else a scrub character like Ryu (or 5 times worse).
So what standard exactly are you applying to the game when you tier? I've stated mine; just a regular playthrough of the game, learning magic through Espers, not ever taking time out to gain levels, not abusing Vanish/Doom. I also take into account the WoB, not just how a character can operate in the final portions of the game, since that would be ignoring more than half of the game itself. I'd figure that wouldd be the most fair and sensible way of tier the game because:
1. Most people don't play the game with restrictions (low-level; natural magic, so a tier based on them would be rather narrow viewed)
2. Tiering the game when everyone is at max level and max-Esper altered stats is pretty pointless because everyone at that point is just overkilling enemies
The facts are simple: Locke is only "top tier" if you over level everyone to level 99; and even then, "top tier" just means that he provides the most overkill at 9999 x8. His equipment is nothing that special. Out of his armors, 7/14 people can equip his Genji Armor; 6/14 people can equip with his Force Armor; and the rest who couldn't use either have their own respectable armor selections. Locke can use the Illumina, but the other 3 who can also equip it, do a much better job in other areas, and didn't lag behind in the WoB like Locke did. And finally, his speed is extremely overrated due to how the ATB system actually functions; meaning at best, Locke will get to strike first (only practical purpose this would have is in a Brachosaur fight or if you wanted to run away), but he will not be getting extra turns because of his "great speed."
Locke is not trash, but he's not top tier either. Unless you like to power level and break the game, there are definitely other more viable and useful characters than him.
Master Chibi wrote: »
Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.
Streets of Rage 3
Dr. Zen | Axel | Skate
9999x2 > 9999x4 or 9999x8
Celes is a good character I haven't that she sucks, or Terra for that matter but Locke is still a member of the top tier, or the better characters. He's better than Relm or Anyone else below him on that list.
Technically everyone can get Ultima. Ok, but so can Locke, yes Relm has more magic attack than Locke, but so what. Equipping Illumina makes a character that much better. And if you still don't think that Locke is all that great:
He gets the best items in the game, not only for himself but for other characters. You need Locke to get Ultima.
Locke can steal Megalixirs and other good items for creatures.
Even if you have 99 Megalixirs that's overkill alright.
"It's true that other characters can 128% Mblock, but that doesn't change the fact that Locke is better."
Locke with Atma or Illumina and Offering. Compared to Relm with Gembox and Economizer or what not. Locke is still the better character.
It's good to have high Mblock, but if you have that high of an Mblock don't you think it's overkill?
Basically it comes down to this:
mostly all can do the Genji Combo. Shadow is included because he has interceptor, throw ignores defenses, he already has high magic power, and high Mblock.
Even at level 40, if you raise the Vigor on a character he or she will still do considerable amounts of damage with the Offering or Genji combo. Simply by Equipping Bismarck when you get him gives a Vigor +2 bonus in the WoB. Meaning that the characters can still achieve damage levels equal to or more than Ultima. The thing is that they won't have to waste to relic spots which are always needs for the Gembox and Economizer combo.
Dude, just let it go. Locke is top tier. Best items. Good speed in the beggining which let's him attack quick. But doesn't help in the end to the long attacks.
And if you didn't read my post, I validated the pros and cons of speed. So read my goddamn post this time. I'm not gonna reply to FF6 tiers anymore after this, it's like teaching a Christian about Zoroastrianism, or Asclepius, Osiris and comparing them to Jesus.
I think you meant: 9999 x2 < 9999 x4 < 9999 x8.
It's true that Ultima is a good spell but that doesn't mean that it's better than an Atma + Illumina combo. There is no way that
9999x2 > 9999x4 or 9999x8
Read it again. The statement said this.
I believe characters should be ranked on their full potential. Level 99 is within the limits of the game. If Squaresoft didn't want players to attain that high of a level, they would have implemented a limit.
I guess it depends on whether or not you want to set a limit for yourself. You could level yourself completely to level 99 and explore the full potentials and possibilities of each character that Squaresoft designed. Or you could limit yourself to under level 50 because of Strike's subjective viewpoint that anything higher is not fair for the CPU.
I didn't mention anything about fairness to the CPU. I don't understand why you guys think the concept of tiering the game when there is still challenge left in it and when all the characters haven't become clones of one another is such a foreign and strange concept.
JA N wrote:
top: Articuno Alakazzam
High: Garados Charizard Jolteon
everything else: Not Worth mentioning