Tiers for non-fighting games?

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Comments

  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    You should look at characters when they are fully powered up. Why? Because it shows what they can potentially do. That's what it's all about. A characters potential.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    It's situational how you should look at characters for each game. In a game like FF6, if you tier them when they are all level 99 god-characters, all you're tiering is who provides the most overkill. At that point, a tier like that wouldn't give any practical analysis on the character himself/herself.

    But no one's stopping you from doing it that way if you wanted to. I just think it's rather pointless to determine who can do 9999 x8 versus who can do 9999 x4; or decide who has the best defense when all attacks are being blocked or do 1 damage.
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    my $0.02:

    if you are gonna tier it by usefulness throughout the game, then edgar comes out on top with gau not far behind. sabin should be up there since hes superior than most characters throughout the game. seriously, whats keeping sabin down besides the fact he cant equip some of the best equipments. but by the time you got everyones best equips, you are on your way of being godlike. terra and celes are like clones but they have above average stats and has good equips.

    mog is nothing really spectacular in the first half of the game but shines in the 2nd half due to moogle charm. relm is good from the start since her magic and speed is extremely high. locke sucks for majority of the game (shitty magic, shitty attack power) but since he can steal another pair of genji gloves, he still have some use. setzer is semi-useful. he doesnt really shine until you get his fixed dice and his slots are decent despite the fact that sometimes its rigged and can cost you your game.

    shadow isnt too useful since hes on and off your team and you wont get him till the very end. same with gogo but even worse since s/he wont have any esper bonuses (even if you arent trying to make your characters like demi-gods, the bonuses does add up over time).

    so imo

    top: edgar, gau, sabin, terra, celes
    2nd: relm, mog
    3rd: setzer, shadow, locke,
    bottom: cyan, gogo, strago, umaru
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • shadowcharlieshadowcharlie ★ஜ۩dip۞set۩ஜ★ Joined: Posts: 9,169 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    tier espers man =D
    bust my gun at the sun just to sit in the shade~
    ἐξίσταται γὰρ πάντ' ἀπ' ἀλλήλων δίχα
  • Mr.SNKMr.SNK . . . . -B Joined: Posts: 1,809 mod
    Shining in the Darkness
    Top tier: Forbidden box and making DarkSoul Dance.
    Mid tier: Blaze 4,Black bone and The Orb of truth
    Low Tier: Milo... the guy was just a pussy.


    Shining Force 3 sen1
    Top Tier: Dentaris (Prepare to Die)Nuff said best crits in the game.
    Mid Tier: Symbios he was too strong
    Low Tier: The Ending

    FoTNS
    Top Tier: Roah had a really nice style for being a bad guy, Ken-Fucking-Shiro this guy would use a move just for the fuck of it. (yeah we cant forget SHHHHAAWAAAAAA you know him Rei) :D
    Mid Tier: Shin this guy got the most shitty end of the stick in the story.
    Low Tier: Lieing little Bitch Jagi god damn cock sucker.

    Wu-Tang Shaolin Style
    Top Tier: ODB nuff said...RZA and Method man
    Mid Tier: Ghost Face Killah
    Low Tier:Masta Killah

    Kemco Puzzle point n click games.
    Top Tier: Deja Vu
    Mid Tier: Shadow Gate
    Low Tier: Uninvited
    A article on how to get better at fighting games, give it a read you might learn something.
    http://shoryuken.com/blogs/mr-snk/learning-how-get-better-fighting-games-1456/#comments
    Random E.Honda footage/My Youtube page.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSNK
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    Ouroborus wrote:
    my $0.02:

    if you are gonna tier it by usefulness throughout the game, then edgar comes out on top with gau not far behind. sabin should be up there since hes superior than most characters throughout the game. seriously, whats keeping sabin down besides the fact he cant equip some of the best equipments. but by the time you got everyones best equips, you are on your way of being godlike. terra and celes are like clones but they have above average stats and has good equips.

    mog is nothing really spectacular in the first half of the game but shines in the 2nd half due to moogle charm. relm is good from the start since her magic and speed is extremely high. locke sucks for majority of the game (shitty magic, shitty attack power) but since he can steal another pair of genji gloves, he still have some use. setzer is semi-useful. he doesnt really shine until you get his fixed dice and his slots are decent despite the fact that sometimes its rigged and can cost you your game.

    shadow isnt too useful since hes on and off your team and you wont get him till the very end. same with gogo but even worse since s/he wont have any esper bonuses (even if you arent trying to make your characters like demi-gods, the bonuses does add up over time).

    so imo

    top: edgar, gau, sabin, terra, celes
    2nd: relm, mog
    3rd: setzer, shadow, locke,
    bottom: cyan, gogo, strago, umaru

    If you're going to tier by usefulness, you need to bump Locke up again, considering you need him to get: best sword (unless you consider Atma to be superior to Illumina), best shield and best spell (except Terra who gets Ultima naturally).
  • Aoishi2ALAoishi2AL Joined: Posts: 280
    Strike wrote:
    You can get to the WoR with characters at Level 6. I have. I don't see what your point is about level 16 characters. All Locke has in a low-level game is that he is one of the characters who can equip with 128% Magic Block. Damage-wise, at that low level, he isn't causing much, at least compared to the other 128% Magic Block characters (Terra, Celes, Edgar, Relm).

    You talk about double-standards, but I haven't really applied any, since I have neither tiered the game at extreme max-levels; at extreme low-levels; nor on a natural magic game. I don't quite fully understand your comparsion because you've seem to have done all three. I'm assuming you're judging a high level Locke to:
    1. A level 20 Terra casting Ultima not hitting 9999 (actually, a Morphed level 20 Terra properly equipped WILL hit 9999)
    2. A natural magic game Terra getting Ultima at level 80

    You're analogies don't exactly make sense because I don't equate the Illumina to being a machine gun, while everything else in the game are empty fists. I further don't equate Locke to being Cable, making everyone else a scrub character like Ryu (or 5 times worse).

    So what standard exactly are you applying to the game when you tier? I've stated mine; just a regular playthrough of the game, learning magic through Espers, not ever taking time out to gain levels, not abusing Vanish/Doom. I also take into account the WoB, not just how a character can operate in the final portions of the game, since that would be ignoring more than half of the game itself. I'd figure that wouldd be the most fair and sensible way of tier the game because:
    1. Most people don't play the game with restrictions (low-level; natural magic, so a tier based on them would be rather narrow viewed)
    2. Tiering the game when everyone is at max level and max-Esper altered stats is pretty pointless because everyone at that point is just overkilling enemies

    The facts are simple: Locke is only "top tier" if you over level everyone to level 99; and even then, "top tier" just means that he provides the most overkill at 9999 x8. His equipment is nothing that special. Out of his armors, 7/14 people can equip his Genji Armor; 6/14 people can equip with his Force Armor; and the rest who couldn't use either have their own respectable armor selections. Locke can use the Illumina, but the other 3 who can also equip it, do a much better job in other areas, and didn't lag behind in the WoB like Locke did. And finally, his speed is extremely overrated due to how the ATB system actually functions; meaning at best, Locke will get to strike first (only practical purpose this would have is in a Brachosaur fight or if you wanted to run away), but he will not be getting extra turns because of his "great speed."

    Locke is not trash, but he's not top tier either. Unless you like to power level and break the game, there are definitely other more viable and useful characters than him.

    It's true that Ultima is a good spell but that doesn't mean that it's better than an Atma + Illumina combo. There is no way that

    9999x2 > 9999x4 or 9999x8

    Celes is a good character I haven't that she sucks, or Terra for that matter but Locke is still a member of the top tier, or the better characters. He's better than Relm or Anyone else below him on that list.

    Technically everyone can get Ultima. Ok, but so can Locke, yes Relm has more magic attack than Locke, but so what. Equipping Illumina makes a character that much better. And if you still don't think that Locke is all that great:

    He gets the best items in the game, not only for himself but for other characters. You need Locke to get Ultima.

    Locke can steal Megalixirs and other good items for creatures.

    Even if you have 99 Megalixirs that's overkill alright.

    It's true that other characters can 128% Mblock, but that doesn't change the fact that Locke is better.

    Locke with Atma or Illumina and Offering. Compared to Relm with Gembox and Economizer or what not. Locke is still the better character.

    It's good to have high Mblock, but if you have that high of an Mblock don't you think it's overkill? Basically it comes down to this:

    Locke
    Celes
    Terra
    Edgar
    Shadow
    Gau

    mostly all can do the Genji Combo. Shadow is included because he has interceptor, throw ignores defenses, he already has high magic power, and high Mblock.

    Even at level 40, if you raise the Vigor on a character he or she will still do considerable amounts of damage with the Offering or Genji combo. Simply by Equipping Bismarck when you get him gives a Vigor +2 bonus in the WoB. Meaning that the characters can still achieve damage levels equal to or more than Ultima. The thing is that they won't have to waste to relic spots which are always needs for the Gembox and Economizer combo.

    Economizer by itself reduces everything to one Mp. While Gembox casts two spells at once. Offering takes up 1 relic slot permitting a character to do whatever the fuck they want.

    Dude, just let it go. Locke is top tier. Best items. Good speed in the beggining which let's him attack quick. But doesn't help in the end to the long attacks.

    And if you didn't read my post, I validated the pros and cons of speed. So read my goddamn post this time. I'm not gonna reply to FF6 tiers anymore after this, it's like teaching a Christian about Zoroastrianism, or Asclepius, Osiris and comparing them to Jesus.
  • caliagent#3caliagent#3 Caliagent Bobblehead Joined: Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Double Dragon II:
    Top Tier: Knee attak
    High Mid: Uppercut, hurricane kick
    Mid: Back kick
    Low: punches, jump kick

    River City Ransom:
    God Tier: Chain (the only weapon you should really use)
    Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.
    Footsies guide: www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbpXplP_WFE
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    All man I can't believe I haven't seen this thread sooner but I guess that serves me right for not looking at the Other Games board at a while. Before the forum crash there was a similar thread to this on the FG board with wide variety of games being tiered, it very interesting to srk peeps breaking down/sharing knowledge of non-fighting games.
    Streets of Rage 3
    Roo
    Dr. Zen | Axel | Skate
    Blaze

    This seems like a joke but if not I gotta know the reasons behind that list, actually mostly why would Roo be above Skate.

    IMO..(I haven't played SOR3 in ages though..)
    God tier: Super Axel/Super Skate
    Top tier: Shiva/Blaze/Skate
    Rest/don't matter enough to divide further: Axel/Zan/Roo

    - Normal Axel was already a decent character but the crazy new special of the Super version owns the game by itself. Super Skate is the same way, he had one of the game's better Blitz attacks that you repeatedly spam on crowds of people even on U.S. Hard, giving him an overpowered normal combo is too much.

    - Shiva couldn't pick up weapons IIRC but had a powerful infinite. Blaze, like Skate, had one of the game's better Blitz attacks. Beside drop kicks, Blitz attacks own this game.

    - Axel/Zan/Roo isn't really bad (well maybe Roo), I can still beat the game easily with them but I would just put a little bit more effort than special spamming with Super Axel or Blitz spamming with Blaze or (Super)Skate.

    About RE4, I don't think levels matter. The character that can easily handle any level and break high 6 digits is the overall better character IMO. For that I think Wesker and Krauser are top, Ada is middle is middle and HUNK/Leon struggles for whatever is left.

    Don't know what suggestions to list that hasn't be listed already so I'll just throw some random ninja action games of this gen.

    Shinobi
    Top: Joe/Hotsuma
    Bottom: Moritsune

    - Joe can rip the game away old school style just by shuriken spamming and while his sword doesn't have as much power of Hotsuma or Moritsune you don't have to worry about health drain. Hotsuma doesn't hit hard as Moritsune but his power is enough, especially with the Charge Attack.

    - Moritsune is the strongest character in the game but his health drain is much worse on the trade off. On Super Mode, if a Tate doesn't go your way perfectly you'll be hurting looking for health. This is usually the case when fighting Super mode Hiruko. The health drain/power advantage is much more balance with Hotsuma.

    Nightshade
    Top: Hotsuma
    Middle: Joe
    Bottom: Hisui then Hibana below her.

    - Hotsuma's sword bypasses the "have to kick enemies armor off to damage them" rule so that's makes levels MUCH easier to go through and his sword gets crazy power boosts through Tates. Combined with the Charge Attack he makes short work of bosses. He's the only character who can beat the last boss in about 25 seconds. The health drain isn't even a problem with all the ownage he serves up.

    - Joe can still spam shurikens, which now have tracking abilities in this game, and his shuriken burst breaks armor. His only downfall is that he gets served up bad by Stage 12 boss.

    - The girls don't suck but since Hotsuma and Joe can bypass the annoying kicking armor off enemies rule they don't have to worry about unnesscary counter-attacks when trying to air Tate. Their Shadow Attack makes it easier to Tate bosses than the guys but that's about it and not enough to put them over IMO. Also Hisui is better than Hibana simply because she is the exact same as her except Hisui runs faster and has more range on her attacks.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    9999x2 > 9999x4 or 9999x8

    I think you meant: 9999 x2 < 9999 x4 < 9999 x8.

    Duh?

    The whole point I was trying to make is: when you're tiering all the characters at the point where each one has become a god-character; what's the point? Have you ever thought about it that way? Is a tier about what character can provide the most overkill really that useful when the game has become a complete joke? I get what everyone is saying about potential. Maybe you guys just take the fighting game tier ideology that since fighting game characters are tiered at a theorhetical "full potential," RPG characters should be as well. I don't think it quite translates that easily. Apparently you guys do.
    Celes is a good character I haven't that she sucks, or Terra for that matter but Locke is still a member of the top tier, or the better characters. He's better than Relm or Anyone else below him on that list.

    All you keep saying is: Locke is a member of the top tier, with absolutely nothing to back it up other than your resolve. At least I've shown how Locke is not the god character you guys keep proclaiming him to be with actual numbers, damage forumulas, and stats. But I guess it's not enough for you.
    Technically everyone can get Ultima. Ok, but so can Locke, yes Relm has more magic attack than Locke, but so what. Equipping Illumina makes a character that much better. And if you still don't think that Locke is all that great:

    The "so what" is that Relm is causing much more damage with Ultima than Locke ever will with anything else if you played the game WITHOUT over-leveling to the point where nothing matters. Equipping the Illumina when you're not a god-character doesn't automatically make you good. Perhaps you're too spoiled by immediately powering your characters to ridiculous heights that you've forgotten what it's like to actually play the game without first turning every battle into a joke.
    He gets the best items in the game, not only for himself but for other characters. You need Locke to get Ultima.

    If you want to take into consideration that Locke is a "requirement" in order to get the best equipment in the game, you can. I'd rather tier a character based on their ability in battle, rather than tier them based on what they can provide outside of battle. For instance, I didn't take into consideration Mog's Moogle Charm. To me, character tier lists are reflective of battle performance.
    Locke can steal Megalixirs and other good items for creatures.

    When do you ever need Mega Elixers when Cure 3 does the job just fine? So Locke can steal a recovery item that is rarely (if ever) needed. Not that great of a point. And what exactly are these "other good items" that you spoke of? The only noteworthy thing I can think of that Locke can steal in the WoB are Gaia Gears and Genji Gloves. Genji Gloves being a rare steal from a rare enemy on the Floating Continent (when the WoB is practically over); and Genji Gloves being only really useful for Locke which you should've already have one already. In the WoR, the only noteworthy thing Locke can steal are Economizers, which he himself can't make as good a use for compared to the other dedicated magic users with much better Magic Power stats.
    Even if you have 99 Megalixirs that's overkill alright.

    One Megalixer is overkill. 99 is just silly. So if you admit to them being overkill, why bring it up as a valid point?
    "It's true that other characters can 128% Mblock, but that doesn't change the fact that Locke is better."

    WTF? That doesn't make any sense. It's basically, you just repeating that Locke is better because you said so. If other characters can reach 128% MBlock, which itself is the whole point of Locke's so-called "excellent equipment," then that means that Locke's equipment isn't all that special in the first place.
    Locke with Atma or Illumina and Offering. Compared to Relm with Gembox and Economizer or what not. Locke is still the better character.

    Atma Weapon + Illumina combo is only better than Ultima when you've whored EXP and raised your characters levels to the point where the game and the battles that take place have become nothing more than a nuisance. Besides, Atma Weapon + Illumina isn't even that great of a combination in general. In order for Atma Weapon to be obscenely powerful, you'd again have to be at an higher level than necessary. If you're at level 99, most any weapon is already hitting for 9999 damage. Genji Gloved, Atma + Illumina is still only going to hit for 9999 x2. Illumina itself is actually a horrible weapon to pair up with the Offering, because it loses its MP Critical Hit multiplier. Either way, the point is that in order for Atma Weapon + Illumina to be better than Ultima, you'd have to have gotten to a point where the game doesn't matter anymore. If you wish to tier a joke game at a point when pretty much all the characters are clones of one another, then you can. It's just to me, a tier like that is pointless. How one character can crush all enemies with 9999 x8, when another character can easily crush the same enemies with 9999 x4; there really isn't any practical difference between the two.
    It's good to have high Mblock, but if you have that high of an Mblock don't you think it's overkill?

    128% MBlock ensures you are able to block every single blockable attack that is thrown your way. And if you took time to read my setups, I did not overkill MBlock, as I made sure with the equipment that it reached the 128% with the fewest points being left over (as in Celes' 129% case). No, I don't think high MBlock is overkill; in fact it's the opposite. High MBlock will likely save your life more than being able to do 79992 damage overkill on a 5000 HP enemy.

    If you think high MBlock is overkill, and thus not an important stat, then that just makes Locke that much worse, as one of the few things I give him credit for is his ability to reach the 128% MBlock mark while other characters can't. If you're satisfied with just even 100% MBlock; then other characters like Setzer, Shadow, and Mog truly start dominating Locke. Again, the only way Locke "beats these guys" is at god-level; a point where tiering the game becomes a joke itself.
    Basically it comes down to this:

    Locke
    Celes
    Terra
    Edgar
    Shadow
    Gau

    mostly all can do the Genji Combo. Shadow is included because he has interceptor, throw ignores defenses, he already has high magic power, and high Mblock.

    Genji combo is not good if you're not a godcharacter. And ALL god-characters (which seems to be your standard) can Genji combo for 9999 x2 anyway, so what's your point?
    Even at level 40, if you raise the Vigor on a character he or she will still do considerable amounts of damage with the Offering or Genji combo. Simply by Equipping Bismarck when you get him gives a Vigor +2 bonus in the WoB. Meaning that the characters can still achieve damage levels equal to or more than Ultima. The thing is that they won't have to waste to relic spots which are always needs for the Gembox and Economizer combo.

    Which is why it's kind of stupid to consider Esper bonuses because you can alter the stats of any characters to be practically anything you want. Basically making clones of each other stat-wise; which is precisely the reason why I didn't take Esper stat altering into consideration.

    Hell, why don't we include the Merit Award into dicussion? With it, anyone can equip the Illumina. Raise a level 6 Relm with 30 levels of Odin, 30 more levels of Bismarck, give her the Merit Award and Illumina, and guess what? You have another character with obscene speed, can hit for 9999 damage, and can use the Illumina? Why do you consider taking Esper stat bonuses into consideration, which changes characters to basically anything you want; but neglect Merit Award setups? You're applying a double-standard.
    Dude, just let it go. Locke is top tier. Best items. Good speed in the beggining which let's him attack quick. But doesn't help in the end to the long attacks.

    And if you didn't read my post, I validated the pros and cons of speed. So read my goddamn post this time. I'm not gonna reply to FF6 tiers anymore after this, it's like teaching a Christian about Zoroastrianism, or Asclepius, Osiris and comparing them to Jesus.

    Why don't you let it go? Locke is top tier because you said so? Locke's speed makes him attack first, but he's not doing anything noteworthy in that first strike that another character can't do better. The only "good item" he has over anyone else is the Illumina, which the other 3 wielders do a better job at it and excel in other areas, and didn't completey suck in the WoB. Why don't you read my "goddamn" posts about how speed actually works, rather than relying on your rather misguided notion that Locke's 37-44 speed stat is going to start making him have more turns than other characters, or make him start doing double damage, or any other completely false assumption. You didn't validate any of your posts other than mostly saying something along the lines of, 'Locke is top tier because I said so; just accept it.'

    Again, Locke is only "top tier" in the fact that if you overlevel everyone to 99, to a point where the game doesn't matter anymore, Locke provides the most overkill. His high speed does not mean he'll be attacking more times in battle. Out of his equipment, the only thing noteworthy he has are the Illumina and Valiant Knife; the former being better suited for one of the other 3 users, and the latter only good when Locke is either practically dead or walking god-character. I guess people just don't like being proven wrong.
  • Mr.SNKMr.SNK . . . . -B Joined: Posts: 1,809 mod
    Drop the fucking subject already, Gogo > all.

    Us normal folk play the game to have fun, besides who wants to level or cheat everyone to 99 anyhow 65 is high enough.

    Genji Glove is pointless in the WoR anyway, its like Sprint Shoes or Float ring.
    A article on how to get better at fighting games, give it a read you might learn something.
    http://shoryuken.com/blogs/mr-snk/learning-how-get-better-fighting-games-1456/#comments
    Random E.Honda footage/My Youtube page.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSNK
  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Strike wrote:
    I think you meant: 9999 x2 < 9999 x4 < 9999 x8.

    Duh?

    Read it again. The statement said this.
    It's true that Ultima is a good spell but that doesn't mean that it's better than an Atma + Illumina combo. There is no way that

    9999x2 > 9999x4 or 9999x8

    Duh?

    I believe characters should be ranked on their full potential. Level 99 is within the limits of the game. If Squaresoft didn't want players to attain that high of a level, they would have implemented a limit.

    I guess it depends on whether or not you want to set a limit for yourself. You could level yourself completely to level 99 and explore the full potentials and possibilities of each character that Squaresoft designed. Or you could limit yourself to under level 50 because of Strike's subjective viewpoint that anything higher is not fair for the CPU.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    box wrote:
    Read it again. The statement said this.



    Duh?

    I believe characters should be ranked on their full potential. Level 99 is within the limits of the game. If Squaresoft didn't want players to attain that high of a level, they would have implemented a limit.

    I guess it depends on whether or not you want to set a limit for yourself. You could level yourself completely to level 99 and explore the full potentials and possibilities of each character that Squaresoft designed. Or you could limit yourself to under level 50 because of Strike's subjective viewpoint that anything higher is not fair for the CPU.

    The point is the same in that you guys are trying to justify your tiers as who can provide the most overkill at a point where that much damage is completely unnecessary.

    And how is my viewpoint any more or less subjective than your insistance on comparing characters at level 99? Sure, you can level yourself completely to the point where nothing will stand in your way. It's like tiering which weapon: Nuclear Bomb; Tank; Machine Gun; or Bomber Jet is best for killing ants. You're characters are so far beyond powerful that tiering them at that point is a joke itself.

    I didn't mention anything about fairness to the CPU. I don't understand why you guys think the concept of tiering the game when there is still challege left in it and when all the characters haven't become clones of one another is such a foreign and strange concept.
  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Strike wrote:
    T
    I didn't mention anything about fairness to the CPU. I don't understand why you guys think the concept of tiering the game when there is still challenge left in it and when all the characters haven't become clones of one another is such a foreign and strange concept.

    Because by doing so, you are tiering the characters at a limit that you yourself are imposing on the characters. You aren't taking into account the full-potential of these characters. Who defines what limit should be placed on characters? You... or Squaresoft?
  • Higher-JinHigher-Jin MvC2 Moderator Joined: Posts: 1,953
    Can't you two just have two different tierings?

    One at level 99, and one at level 40.
    Either we all live in a decent world, or nobody does. - George Orwell
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Sure. Except I think the Locke-supporters have a misguided belief that he's still somehow superior even at lower levels.
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    This will be my last argument for Locke vs Relm, but Relm is not all that more powerful a mage than Locke is. If you consider the following setups (optimized for MBlock):

    Relm:
    Magus Rod
    Tao Robe
    Cat Hood
    Force Shield
    Gem Box
    White Cape

    Relm will do 19998 damage at level 40 with Ultima (9999 x 2)

    Locke:
    Illumina
    Force Armor
    Circlet
    Force Shield
    Gem Box
    Hero Ring or Earrings

    Locke will do 19782 damage at level 40 with Ultima (9891 x 2)

    Locke will have the full 128% magic block, while Relm will be around 120, plus Locke still has his speed advantage. Factor in Locke's better skill (steal/capture) and versatility, and I can't see how Relm is better than he is.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    JA N wrote:
    Pokemon
    god: mewtwo
    top: Articuno Alakazzam
    High: Garados Charizard Jolteon
    everything else: Not Worth mentioning

    I can't believe I'm going to come out of lurking to post about old school Pokemon.

    Mewtwo is God yes, but after that, the only Pokemon I'd think of using out of the ones you listed is Gyarados (and even that is shaky, considering Thunderbolt is usually on many Pokemon). Aerodactyl, Snorlax, Dragonite (beware Ice Beam), Chansey, Starmie, and Slowbro are all better than those, off the top of my head.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Mainly because prior to level 40; Relm is already capable of hitting the damage threashold of 9999 much earlier than Locke can.

    Optimized for damage:

    Magus Rod
    Force Shield
    Cat Hood
    Behemoth Suit
    Gem Box
    Earring

    Relm will do 19998 damage at level 26; a good 14 levels before you reach endgame (assuming a level 40 endgame level). Relm is thus capable of destroying more powerful enemies earlier on, at levels where your party is still capable of being wiped out.

    That Illumina/Force Armor/Force Shield combo is a good one; no doubt; but having to use all 3 on one character is a bit of a waste on all 3 items, which could've been spread a bit more throughout the party. Again, Locke's "speed advantage" isn't much of one when speed doesn't count for much in this game due to ATB. Locke will get his turn first, but unless he's at a high level, what is he doing that's so damaging or so crucial in that first turn that someone else couldn't do one turn later?
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Gen2000:
    I'm not sure if you've ever played Bare Knuckle 3, but if you have, where would Ash rank?
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    box wrote:
    Because by doing so, you are tiering the characters at a limit that you yourself are imposing on the characters. You aren't taking into account the full-potential of these characters. Who defines what limit should be placed on characters? You... or Squaresoft?

    Whoever makes his/her tier list decides the standard to which that tier list is based on. I justified why I chose not to tier the game at a point when nothing matters anymore. I explained why I thought a tier list of Level 99 characters is a rather moot point; as practically speaking, there is never any need to have to level that far. I explained why I thought Esper stat bonus manipulation would be rather pointless as well. I went into detail over the misconception that Locke's speed somehow gave him the ability to do more damage in battle by acting more times than other characters.

    If you can't handle a thought-out opinion on why Locke isn't as great as you have made him out to be, then don't read my posts. I already agree with everyone that a Level 99 Locke provides the most overkill damage in the game. It's just it seems hard for your side to see why I chose not to tier the game when everything has become effortlessly easy.
  • J-rideJ-ride OG Member Joined: Posts: 2,165 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    noodleman wrote:
    for FFT:

    why did no one mention teleport and blade grasp? Teleport is awesome in Deep Dungeon since there is no height restriction and you can walk through walls. As long as you stay within 4 panels, teleport pretty much never fails, 5 gets iffy, but still relatively consistent.

    Blade Grasp makes you immune to 90% of all enemies in the game.


    I was never a fan of Worker 8. you can't haste him/heal him without someone using the Item skill, which is a waste of a slot. he doesn't move very fast/far, can't learn anything useful, and stats were mediocore compared to broken items that you can equip onto other characters.

    I just wanted to add that lowering your characters faith down to the lowest level, maxing out brave + blade grasp makes them GODS. Time mages, Summoners, Mages, all of that is worthless. The best summons do about 50 points of damage (at max). So now you can beast for free. I used worker 8 like an archer, and thats where I got the idea to lower faith because a spell was cast on him and did no damage. But yeah, I usually sent him off to kill time mages and summoners.
    Woman was created for our destruction, and it is from her we inherit all of our miseries.

    Aramis from The Three Musketeers
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    J-ride wrote:
    I just wanted to add that lowering your characters faith down to the lowest level, maxing out brave + blade grasp makes them GODS. Time mages, Summoners, Mages, all of that is worthless. The best summons do about 50 points of damage (at max). So now you can beast for free. I used worker 8 like an archer, and thats where I got the idea to lower faith because a spell was cast on him and did no damage. But yeah, I usually sent him off to kill time mages and summoners.

    Look, there's a TON of ways to make characters gods in FFT. There are WAY too many damn options in this game, and that's really the beauty of it. However, having minimum faith, maximum brave, and blade grasp doesn't make those mages worthless. A Math-Skilling 90 + Faith mage is STILL better than anything out there.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    DaBoss wrote:
    Gen2000:
    I'm not sure if you've ever played Bare Knuckle 3, but if you have, where would Ash rank?

    Despite his looks, Ash is up there with the Super characters IMO because while he lacks jumping attacks (IIRC) and can't use weapons he's insanely strong. He doesn't have much reach but he's also very fast.
  • mr.hadokenmr.hadoken Old School Style For You Joined: Posts: 621
    What about tiers for WCW World Tour thru No Mercy how would u guys rate those games if u played them. HCTP and Raw/Smackdown already have their rating for each character already so i assume those would be the correct tiers for those two games :karate:
    Good hit...but not enough power.
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Anybody know the race tiers for Starcraft, SC: Brood War, WarCraft III, and WCIII: The Frozen Throne? I'm thinking about getting back into them. Or are they actually balanced these days?
    Your legal insider in entertainment and video games!
    www.dpgatlaw.com
    www.twitter.com/UltraDavid
    www.facebook.com/UltraDavidFB
  • Mr.SNKMr.SNK . . . . -B Joined: Posts: 1,809 mod
    UltraDavid wrote:
    Anybody know the race tiers for Starcraft, SC: Brood War, WarCraft III, and WCIII: The Frozen Throne? I'm thinking about getting back into them. Or are they actually balanced these days?

    Um well you see for a question like that its comes down to counter strating and good micro control, nothing more nothing less.
    A article on how to get better at fighting games, give it a read you might learn something.
    http://shoryuken.com/blogs/mr-snk/learning-how-get-better-fighting-games-1456/#comments
    Random E.Honda footage/My Youtube page.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSNK
  • MagnificoMagnifico Joined: Posts: 837
    UltraDavid wrote:
    Anybody know the race tiers for Starcraft, SC: Brood War, WarCraft III, and WCIII: The Frozen Throne? I'm thinking about getting back into them. Or are they actually balanced these days?

    I can vouch that theyre all pretty balanced except Reign of Chaos had horrid balance before FT came out. even it may be balanced through patching now, i wouldn't know because i moved onto FT and forgot RoC existed.
  • Mr.SNKMr.SNK . . . . -B Joined: Posts: 1,809 mod
    Magnifico wrote:
    I can vouch that theyre all pretty balanced except Reign of Chaos had horrid balance before FT came out. even it may be balanced through patching now, i wouldn't know because i moved onto FT and forgot RoC existed.

    Dude your in Mesa too, sweet!
    A article on how to get better at fighting games, give it a read you might learn something.
    http://shoryuken.com/blogs/mr-snk/learning-how-get-better-fighting-games-1456/#comments
    Random E.Honda footage/My Youtube page.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSNK
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Terry_nb wrote:
    Diablo 2 LOD (from best to worst, all IMO)

    sorc (fire spell damage is pure ownage thx to synergies)
    barb/amazon
    pala/necro
    assasin
    druid (only 2 builds are effective)

    Are you talking about 1.10 or 1.11? And PvP or PvM, because honestly who gives a shit about PvM.
    My youtube channel (various MVC3 vids etc.):

    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrouchStrong?feature=mhsn
  • I Am LotharI Am Lothar ಠ_ಠ Joined: Posts: 2,798
    DW5 tiers

    God Tier:
    Ma Chao and Lu Bu

    Top Tier:
    Cao Cao, Gan Ning, Guan Ping, Jiang Wei, Pang De, Wei Yan, Xu Huang, Zuo Ci

    Past this it really doesn't matter. Ma Chao really needs the Shadow saddle before he becomes God tier and Lu Bu always owns since he can max all of his stats and gets the best crowd control ground move in the game. Ma Chao has the best mounted charge move and his final weapon is really good.
    AIM: SubtleDagger256
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    DW5 tiers

    God Tier:
    Ma Chao and Lu Bu

    Top Tier:
    Cao Cao, Gan Ning, Guan Ping, Jiang Wei, Pang De, Wei Yan, Xu Huang, Zuo Ci

    Past this it really doesn't matter. Ma Chao really needs the Shadow saddle before he becomes God tier and Lu Bu always owns since he can max all of his stats and gets the best crowd control ground move in the game. Ma Chao has the best mounted charge move and his final weapon is really good.

    Ling Tong is also top-tier without a doubt. His 4th charge is the most broken move in the game. That move alone makes him tops.
  • I Am LotharI Am Lothar ಠ_ಠ Joined: Posts: 2,798
    DaBoss wrote:
    Ling Tong is also top-tier without a doubt. His 4th charge is the most broken move in the game. That move alone makes him tops.

    Yeah forgot him from the top tier but Lu Bu's crowd clearing charge is by far the most broken in the game.
    AIM: SubtleDagger256
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Yeah forgot him from the top tier but Lu Bu's crowd clearing charge is by far the most broken in the game.

    I'm not TOO sure on that. Ling Tong's 4th Charge has almost NO recovery time, and it has a huge hit range. This means he can use it over and over and over again with no drawbacks. I've gone through entire levels without getting touched once many, many times with him. You can probably do the same with any of the top/god tier, but the thing is, I wasn't even really trying ":^)" The problem with Ling Tong is, all of his other moves aren't really too hot. However, that one move (and his attack and walking speed) automatically put him in the top tier.
  • MechanicaMechanica elias the flyest Joined: Posts: 6,252
    Bubble Bobble tiers

    Player 2 dino - top tier
    Player 1 dino - bottom tier
    KOForever WHY IS 14 SO UGLY whyyyy is alex's neutral stance so ugly
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    DW5 tiers

    God Tier:
    Ma Chao and Lu Bu

    Top Tier:
    Cao Cao, Gan Ning, Guan Ping, Jiang Wei, Pang De, Wei Yan, Xu Huang, Zuo Ci

    Past this it really doesn't matter. Ma Chao really needs the Shadow saddle before he becomes God tier and Lu Bu always owns since he can max all of his stats and gets the best crowd control ground move in the game. Ma Chao has the best mounted charge move and his final weapon is really good.

    Uh, Zuo Ci not god? His charge on a horse is better than Ma Chao's (it's mobile) and he's more versatile on the ground than Ma Chao. I also can't agree with all the officers you put in top. Can you justify why Cao Cao, Gan Ning and Pang De are there?

    On a side note, no one character can max all stats due to the way the weapon system works. Lu Bu comes closest in terms of the 4 base stats due to having +20 attack and defense, and +19 to life and musou on his ultimate.

    bottom tier is also: Sun Shang Xiang, Da Qiao, Xiao Qiao and Diao Chan simply because their ultimate weapons are heavy whereas everyone else's is either medium or light weight.
  • MagnificoMagnifico Joined: Posts: 837
    MrSNK wrote:
    Dude your in Mesa too, sweet!

    Heh yeah, just moved here recently, sup.

    Mechanica wrote:
    Bubble Bobble tiers

    Player 2 dino - top tier
    Player 1 dino - bottom tier

    what's the difference?
  • epsilon_epsilon_ helpful Joined: Posts: 3,582
    PSO (phantasy star online) v1 tiers

    God - HUmar : he had as high max atp has hucast, could use all techs, as much ata as you would ever need, and extremely high atp. as a male character, he had excellent weapon animations as well.

    top - HUnewarl many of the same reasons humar is top: high atp and can use all techs. slightly lower ata/atp than humar in exchange for the practically useless mst stat.

    high-mid - RAmar only ranger who can use techs, and had just as much ata/atp as the robot rangers too...

    mid - HUcast : high atp/ata/hp good stat growth, just no techs...

    low-mid - RAcast/RAcaseal they both suck pretty bad, but at least they have good ata and decent atp.

    Bottom - all forces...mainly because techs sucked in v1, and barely did any damage, at least they can usually hit every enemy, but in a team full of humars using spread needles, they'll have to hurry


    v1 weapon tiers

    GOD - Spread Needle. this weapon was rediculous. hunters could use it, so it did sick damage. it shoots out about 6 needles, like a shot, but it shoots as fast as a handgun. also had rediculous range, spread needles got hella nerfed in the gc version though.

    who cares about every other weapon? lol...

    PSO v2 tiers - pretty much the same, except forces dont suck as much now, but they still suck.

    v2 was also the beginning of battle/challenge modes.

    v2 battle tiers:

    top - HUmar: humars were really good in battle. they had alot of atp/ata and were able to use techs pretty well too. ice gifoie trick + brand from a humar=dead you. they also had male tech animations (which are the fastest in the game using no weapons)

    FOnewms were also top because they had TONS of tp, and techs were really good in battle. they could use like 2 rafoies to take out your entire team pretty quickly, they could also resta alot because of their high tp, and they had the super fast tech animation of wepless males, so they would never equip weps.

    high-mid - HUnewarls, hunes had good evp/dfp/mst and decent enough atp to use weps. the only thing that really hurt them was sub par tech casting animations and their saber animation sucked kinda.

    FOnewarls were also pretty good, although again...slow tech animation.

    mid - HUcast, hucs did alot of damage & high hp, but no techs..

    FOmarls could be mid too, while they had more hp than the other forces, her techs did less damage, and she had less tp.

    low-mid - RAmars just dont do enough damage, and they have very little hp. their tp was even lower than HUmar's, non existent atp too, but at least they had techs.

    Bottom - Android Rangers...no redeeming qualities. no damage...no techs...no nothing.

    ba tiers were pretty much the same as in v2 in the GC version, but RAmar/RAmarl become mid because techs knock down now. HUnewarl moves up even more because techs in general are stronger. FOnewarl also moves up because her simple tech boost allows her to do rediculous damage with 1 foie/zonde.
    i don't care what the critics say, violence is a beauuutiful thing!
  • CaliScrubCaliScrub Coca-Cola Junkie Joined: Posts: 28
    More notes about FF6:

    I'm not going to enter the debate about what level a tiering "makes sense" for this game, mostly because I haven't formulated an argument one way or the other. I'm going to focus on the Gem Box vs. the Genji combo.

    With Gem Box, you can actually do 9999x5 damage a turn, not just 9999x2: Ultima-Quick, Ultima-Ultima, Ultima-Ultima. For your first X-magic turn you MUST cast Quick 2nd... for some reason, if you cast Quick first (for example, Quick-Ultima), time will start again after your 4th spell instead of your 6th. Of course, without the Economizer, this is a huge drain on MP. Then again, you can always stick in an Osmose in place of one of those Ultimas and refill your MP after every go, in essence paring your damage down to 9999x4 per turn but allowing you to free one of your relic slots from the Economizer.

    In general, I think Gem Box + whatever (usually Economizer, but not necessary if the enemies have tons of osmosable MP) is better than Genji combo. Sure, 9999x5 is still less than 9999x8, but:

    (1) If you're facing more than 1 enemy, suddenly 9999x5 turns into (9999x5)x2 or more, while 9999x8 stays 9999x8.

    (2) Gem Box is more versatile than Offering+Genji, which really doesn't offer anything other than attack (at godly levels, I admit). Whereas with Gem Box, using Quick, you can Life 3 your whole party AND heal your whole party in a single turn; or if only one character is left alive, you can Life 2 your entire party, and still have enough time in your turn for 2 Ultimas.

    (3) Offering+Genji isn't really that hot unless you're also equipped with top tier weapons (Illumina, Atma Weapon, Valiant Knife, etc.). By contrast, most of the high level spells still kick ass even if you're wearing a tattered shirt and wielding a pointy stick, so a Gem Box user can be godly without hogging all the good weapons.
  • roninwarrior24roninwarrior24 Custom Title Joined: Posts: 635
    I got some more lists. Help me out if you can...

    Tales of Symphonia:

    Top?: Lloyd, Zelos/Kratos
    Upper?: Raine, Genis, Sheena
    Mid?: Presea, Regal, Colette

    I'm not too sure about those...

    Golden Sun The Lost Age:

    Top?: Jenna, Isaac (as Masters, they can be the most uber characters in the game)
    Upper?: Felix, Garet (tanks. Uber powerful and awesome with the best weapons. Best classes can give good healing as well)
    Mid?: Ivan (super fast and can use light blades, but not as uber as the above)
    Low?: Sheba, Piers, Mia (weak, sucky class possibilities, dies easily, etc.)

    Need to think of more. Also, why is the FF1 Black Mage bottom tier? He is a staply in most players terams, as well as the Fighter and the White Mage. Bottom tier IMO is probably Red Mage/Wizard and Thief/Ninja. Masters also suck for 90% of the game.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    NES FF1 Tiers:

    Top: Fighter
    Second: Red Mage
    Middle: Black Belt; Black Mage
    Bottom: Thief; White Mage

    Fighters are undisputedly the best class in the game. The general rule is: the more Fighters you have in your party, the better your party is. Being an offensive and defensive monster; Fighters can dish it out without having to constantly run away from battles like most other classes would force you to do (White/Black mages). And even better, they take an incredible amount of abuse, truly the only class that can even be considered a tank. The myth is that Fighters are expensive to maintain. This is absolutely false, and they are practically one of the cheapest characters to have in your party if you just realize 2 things: Silver Swords (4000 G) and Steel Armor (35k G) are ripoffs. Don't buy those 2 things for your Fighters, and then you'll realize all of their equipment is findable (i.e. FREE).

    Red Mages get a bum rap when it is totally not deserved. It's just, people fail to realize that physical power is so much more effective and important in this game than magic is. Magic has it's uses for sure; but the way the magic system works, your pure magicians get far too little charges per magic level in comparision to the MANY MANY random battles you encounter. Thus a Red Mage, who has very competent attack power and defense (2nd best DEF behind the Fighter for most of the game), can actually contribute some worthwhile damage in battle where the pure mages are either defending or hitting back for 1 damage. Since a spell is cast the same regardless of the class casting it (their is no INT stat modifier that makes Black mages cast black magic better than Red mages; or White mages casting white magic better than Red mages); the RM has the best versatility of being able to cast all of the pure mages' important spells, and still having the offensive and defensive capabilities to contribute something in battle.

    Black Belts/Monks are overrated. Why? Well everyone loves their high damage and cheap affordability, but they all neglected on very important factor: those players who praise Black Belts probably overleveled a ton. Black Belts are like the FF1 equivalent of FF6 Locke. Overlevel unnecessarily to the point where you can plow through everything with any class; and the overleveled Masters will provide more damage than your Knights. But don't forget all those levels beforehand where the Black Belt was being smacked around like a red-headed stepchild because his defense was mage-level shit, and his offense (even barehanded) wasn't matching the Fighter's swords.

    Black Mage. You either get the players who just love BMs no matter what and rate them too high; or you get the ones who realized magic in general in FF1 isn't as strong as it will be in future FF games, and thus rate the BM too low because they are disappointed with the display of offensive magic available. Truth is, yes, magic is not that powerful in this FF game as in others, but FF1 offensive magic > FF1 healing magic. The problem is mainly around the whole magic level charge system. You fight way too many random battles in this game in contrast to how many spell charges the game gives you. So what happens is, the pure mages end up having to save their charges for bosses, making their participation in the many, MANY random battles practically non-existent. How the BM gets a nod over the WM is again because offensive magic can actually do good damage; and healing magic is essentially unnecessary. But like WMs; the high level spells (level 7 and higher) are essentially worthless. They're expensive; you get only 1-2 charges of it; and by the time you actually have 3+ charges of it, your characters are already gods (this is for all those praising "NUKE")

    Thief. What's to say? A second-rate Fighter with much less (and very noticable) attack and less defense. After class change, the Ninja is still second-rate to the Knight in everyway except now he can use low level black magic (which had become obsolete hours ago anyway). Due to the fact "speed" isn't factored in the NES version of FF1; you can't even say the Thief has the best chance of running away since all characters have an equal chance of it. Truly bottom tier, do to everything a Thief can do, a Fighter does multiple times better.

    White mage. Ah, probably THE most overrated class in the game. Why? Because years of playing many RPGs has conditioned people into believing that healing = essential; and thus any dedicated healing character must be useful. While generally true, it is very much the opposite in NES FF1. Magic in this game is simply too weak; and healing magic at that is especially unnessary do to the fact that most healing is done outside of battle through heal potions rather than Cure spells. The sad fact is, the White mage creates his own demand for healing. Put a white mage in your party, and I can pretty much gurantee you that he will be the one who needs the most healing. Harm is good against undead; but a BM's fire spells do the same thing except it's not undead specific; and it's not competing with Cure spells for charge usage. I challenge anyone to take your favorite party that includes a WM (usually the typical Fi/BB/WM/BM party... which itself is funny because it's usually recommended to beginners when in fact it's one of the most difficult parties to play through with); replace the WM with a Fighter, and you'll have SUCH an easier time with the game. I know people will disagree that a WM is still useful in FF1, but I think it's because they're just too conditioned in believing healers are always a benefit, without realizing that in this game, WMs are definitely a handicap to your party.
  • roninwarrior24roninwarrior24 Custom Title Joined: Posts: 635
    Strike wrote:
    stuff about FF1


    So would the #1 top tier team consist of Fighter/Fighter/Red Mage/Red Mage, from what you say? Expensive as hell, yes, but CRAZY power for most of the game, healing and offensive magic for squads of weaklings, and good defense. Plus, doesn't the Peninsula trick give you tons of money? I don't really remember. And o the tiers change for FF Origins/Dawn of Souls? Just curious.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    I'd say that's the 3rd best party. IMO...

    1. Fi/Fi/Fi/RM
    2. Fi/Fi/Fi/Fi
    3. Fi/Fi/RM/RM
    4. Fi/Fi/RM/BB

    One RM provides all the magic you'll ever need in FF1. And actually, Fighters are really cheap and not expensive (pure mages are the most expensive characters to keep because magic keeps getting ridiculously pricier as the game goes on). Just remember 2 rules:

    1. Don't EVER buy the Silver Sword (Elfland, 4000 G)
    2. Don't EVER buy the Steel Armor (some town before you fight Lich, 35000 G)

    These 2 items alone are why people say that Fighters are expensive to keep. If they just use the stuff found in treasure chests (Were Sword, Rune Sword, Ice Sword, Fire Sword, Coral Sword, etc.); and all the armor found in treasure chests (Iron Armor, Ice Armor, Fire Armor, Opal Armor, Dragon Armor, etc)... then they'd realize that pretty much ALL of the Fighter's/Knight's equipment is free.

    As for Dawn of Souls; yeah, the tiers change A LOT. I've played a bit, but from what I heard, Thieves got a major major boost. They critical hit very often, and Ninjas at the end of the game critical hit so often that they are doing more damage than Knights or Monks. Red Mages became shit. The magic system in Dawn of Souls is the traditional MP-based one (instead of spell level charges in FF1); and INT is factored. Meaning Red Mages not only cast spells worse than pure mages, but pure mages in turn get to cast their spells more often due to MP usage rather than spell charges. Plus I heard there were tons of pure mage specific items that were really broken. Fighters got weakened, as a result of better items available for the other classes. Monks were still pretty much the same (crap defense, better offense the higher you level up).
  • G.O.TG.O.T #1 Haggar fan Joined: Posts: 2,164
    My Favorite Tiers of my games

    Halo (weapons)
    God Tier- Rocket Launcher (if u can aim it correctly=its death.), Sniper Rifle
    High Tier-Pistol (The deadly 3-shot kill), Shotgun
    Mid Tier (in Order)- Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, Assault Rifle
    Low-Tier-Needler, everything else

    Elemental Gearbolt-
    God-Phoenix Blaze (killed everything but bosses in 1 hit.
    High-Thunder Tiger
    Mid/Low-Water Snake

    X-Men (SNES)-
    God-Beast (high damage potential, and invincibility frames in attacks), Wolverine (Dive attack has mad priority. Tornado Claw is very powerful in a combo)
    High-Cyclops has so-so normal attacks. Optic Blast is the strongest special in the game. But has terrible startup.
    Mid-Gambit (balanced) nothing special Kinetic cards are good against bosses. Enemis tend to overwhelm Gambit.
    Low_ Psylocke has speed....thats it. too bad it aint MVC2.

    Seiken Densetsu 3
    God-Kevin (Werewolf form is teh truth.) Dark werewolf form beats u shitless.)
    High-everyone else

    DMC3
    All u need is Beowulf, Rebellion, Royal Guard, Kalina Ann, and whatever else u feel.
    Fight Fo' Dah Future.
  • roninwarrior24roninwarrior24 Custom Title Joined: Posts: 635
    Strike, in FF1 NES (and the FF1 part on PS1 FF Origins Normal difficulty), there are Agility and Intellegence modifiers. Even with that, though, I've realized that Red Mages are STILL better than White and Black Mages. The whole magic charges system is why. Oh, and isn't the SIlver Sword more powerful than the Were, Rune, and Coral swords? Doesn't matter, as those weapons suffice. I am now trying to play through as the "best" team (Fi/Fi/Fi/RM). Oh, and laugh at this pathetic FF6 tier list that I got on RPGclassics.com...

    1. Locke
    2. Sabin
    3. Celes
    4. Terra
    5. Gogo/Umaro???
    6. Shadow
    7. Egdar
    8. Gogo/Umaro???
    9. Relm
    10. Setzer
    11. Strago
    12. Mog
    13. Gau
    14. Cyan

    Sucks, right? Why is Sabin top in this list? Why is Gau low? Whoever did this list (some guy named Zeppelin from RPGClassics.com) is an idiot.

    EDIT: Wait a sec. INT doesn't do anything? That's weird. Stat's are like this...

    Str: Increases as your Damage increases.
    Agi: determines your Evade
    Int: ???
    Vit: Determines your HP
    Luck: Run rate

    Other stats are obviouis.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Yeah, INT does nothing (as far as I know) in NES FF1. So there's no such thing as a Black Mage casting spells black magic "better" than a Red Mage; or the same thing about White Mages and white magic. What the pure mages do have over the Red Mage is more spell charges per level. But take the overall bigger picture that even with 1-2 more charges, it's still not enough to be used liberally in the high number of random battles you'll encounter. Therefore, most of the time, pure mages are just standing there in battle doing nothing (because they need to save their charge; essentially being dead weight). Or they force the party to run away from more than 50% of the battles you face to save their HP and spell charges for bosses.

    So luck effects running? Then I guess the Thief would be the best runner, but not by much. I just remembered that agility did not affect running, and most people who don't know how the game works will think that because the Thief has the most agility, he's the best runner. Truthfully, I never really noticed any class being a better "runner" than another. But I guess if it's luck based, then Thieves would win in that category (they still suck at everything else though).

    The Silver Sword is stonger than those listed, but the difference is really unnoticable, and definitely not worth your effort marching around killing Ogres at 200G a pop in order to save that much for a sword that isn't much stronger than the free findable ones, and will soon be replaced by Ice/Fire Sword and beyond. A Fighter with a Were Sword is still mauling everything in sight just as well as if he were equipped with a Silver Sword, only you didn't waste time, effort, and money going with the former option.

    Yeah, those FF6 tiers are just totally wrong. While I can agree on some level of Locke being placed high (I do admit to him being the only character in the game to reliably do 9999 x8; it's just at that point it's... okay, we're done with this issue); there's A LOT on that list that is fundamentally wrong. Which includes:

    - Umaro not being ranked last
    - Edgar getting middle tier rank; when Tools practically own the WoB and he's capable of 128% MBlock
    - Sabin at #2; Blitzes are essentially spells (since they're Magic Power based); and Sabin does not have a good MPower stat; Blitzes essentially only shine twice in the game (at the very beginning with Aura Bolt, and just when you get BumRush ASAP before you get all the other broken stuff in WoR)
    - Gau ranked second to last?! Rages are probably your biggest damage dealers in WoB; giving you essentially free level 2 and 3 spells before you even have access to anything remotely that close in spell power; need I mention Cat Scratch + Tempest/Wind God Gau; Nightshade's Charm cheapness; Intangir near invincibility
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    G.O.T wrote:
    Seiken Densetsu 3
    God-Kevin (Werewolf form is teh truth.) Dark werewolf form beats u shitless.)
    High-everyone else

    You can't possibly believe that Duran is as good as Hawk. Frankly, it's even harder to tier this game because some classes are much better than others for individual characters and parties. I will agree that Kevin owns though.
  • roninwarrior24roninwarrior24 Custom Title Joined: Posts: 635
    Strike wrote:
    Yeah, those FF6 tiers are just totally wrong. While I can agree on some level of Locke being placed high (I do admit to him being the only character in the game to reliably do 9999 x8; it's just at that point it's... okay, we're done with this issue); there's A LOT on that list that is fundamentally wrong. Which includes:

    - Umaro not being ranked last
    - Edgar getting middle tier rank; when Tools practically own the WoB and he's capable of 128% MBlock
    - Sabin at #2; Blitzes are essentially spells (since they're Magic Power based); and Sabin does not have a good MPower stat; Blitzes essentially only shine twice in the game (at the very beginning with Aura Bolt, and just when you get BumRush ASAP before you get all the other broken stuff in WoR)
    - Gau ranked second to last?! Rages are probably your biggest damage dealers in WoB; giving you essentially free level 2 and 3 spells before you even have access to anything remotely that close in spell power; need I mention Cat Scratch + Tempest/Wind God Gau; Nightshade's Charm cheapness; Intangir near invincibility

    That's not why that person ranked Locke as #1. I just don't really understand why Locke is ranked #1. Oh, and the guy doesn't know that Sabin's blitzes are magical (as by saying that you should raise his Vigor, which is extremely off and wrong), and that Edgar is really good in that he can equip the best stuff along with Terra and Celes. He also does not know about Fixed Dice+Offering+Dice+Genji Glove (I hope I got that right), and ranks Setzer low because his slots supposedly "suck." Fool.

    What would the tiers of FF1 Dawn of Souls be. Something like this:

    Top: Thief/Ninja
    Upper: Fighter/Knight, Black Mage/Black Wizard
    Mid: White Mage/White Wizard, Black Belt/Master
    Low: Red Mage/Red Wizard

    I hope this is it. What could be the #1 team. Would it actually be the traditional Fi/Th/WM/BM or something else?
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    epsilon_ wrote:
    PSO (phantasy star online) v1 tiers..


    v1 weapon tiers

    GOD - Spread Needle. this weapon was rediculous. hunters could use it, so it did sick damage. it shoots out about 6 needles, like a shot, but it shoots as fast as a handgun. also had rediculous range, spread needles got hella nerfed in the gc version though.

    who cares about every other weapon? lol...

    To be fair, hardly anyone actually found a Spread Needle, at least in the DC version of PSO v.1. I agree it was beyond broken though if you throw all the weapons into the mix.

    If playing a "legit" game, a good mech gun was the best weapon in the game for Hunters, they had high enough ATA (or whatever the accucary category was called) so they don't miss that much and that high ATP (attack power) puts everyone to shame. Rapes any boss in seconds even on high levels if using one of the better mech guns + enemy bonuses (i.e. Dark 55%), there was a type that drains your health for more damage. IIRC it was easy to find in the shop. The human type hunters could just spam the special to do sick damage and use Resta to heal back their life (or just sit back and have the Force(s) type characters in your party heal you as you repeadedly use the special).
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    G.O.T wrote:
    Halo (weapons)
    God Tier- Rocket Launcher (if u can aim it correctly=its death.), Sniper Rifle
    High Tier-Pistol (The deadly 3-shot kill), Shotgun
    Mid Tier (in Order)- Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, Assault Rifle
    Low-Tier-Needler, everything else


    Thought it'd be interesting to compare the changes for Halo 2 with some tiers:

    GOD tier:
    energy sword
    fuel rod cannon
    rocket launcher
    high to mid:
    sniper rifle
    particle beam rifle
    shotgun
    battle rifle
    brute plasma rifle
    covenant carbine
    needler
    plasma rifle
    mid to low:
    plasma pistol
    SMG
    low tier:
    sentinel beam
    brute shot ( before the update, it was shitty....haven't heard about after )
    magnum

    IMO, best weapon combo for dual-wielding: drop their shields with about three plasma shots w/ plasma rifle ( or a charged plasma pistol shot ) and use an SMG burst in chest to head area to kill them ( or switch to shotgun and own them Ash-style :tup: ).
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