Tiers for non-fighting games?

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  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    box wrote:
    Thanks Ouro. I didn't realize Lady Luck was that powerful. How could you get the slots to do anything you want? I basically just stuck with Gunner + catnip and didn't really explore anything else. Is Samurai really that good? I always believed BErserker was better. Samurai didn't seem to get the damage in fast enough I found.

    just go to the slot command, keep pausing and unpausing the game until the desired slot to show up at the top row, then unpause the game, and press X. your desired slot will land on the bottom row. repeat on the other two columns. congrats, you just broke the game.

    i dont like berserker that much since they get raped by magic attacks and they dont have any magical attacks. samurai is sorta good since it has better stats, damage and speed than warrior but overall, not that great in the end.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    FInal Fantasy Tactics: ONly tier worth mentiuoning Math Skill / Ninja everything else is bunk and should be avoided. FFT was possibly the worst SRPG I ever played because of this.

    Actually in Fable the Gob Spell would be Multi Arrow. With Max Skill Skorm's Bow and a max level Multi Shot AT MOST you have to fire 1 shot at any normal enemy except that rock elemental, they take 1 full and then any other multishot(even weak ass power) hell even the Final Boss can only take 3 or 4 Shots from it. Plus you can easily have Skorm's bow by 2 1/2 hours in. by 3 you have racked up quite enough experiece on infinately spawning gaurds and now can own the game for free.

    Jade Empire: Of course we have to divide things up but really I am lazy and there is only 1 class worth mentioning in each category

    Martial Arts: Tiger Strike is the best. PERIOD it has the second best speed slightly above average Damage and the best unblockable martial arts attack

    Weapons: Dual swords / Mirabelle. The Dual swords are fast, allthough their single attack damage is lower one full combo from them does the second most(second only to dual axes which are horribly slow) the best speed and second best damage. . . its a no brainer. Mirabelle can drop things in one fairly fast explosive attack. its not that great all the time but there are certain large things its great for(Jade golems)

    Transforming: Jade Golem: The end. its literally better in every single way imaginable then the other transformations.

    Support.
    High: Dragon Storm Spirit theif
    Good enough: The stupid one you start with!
    Worthless and outclassed: Everything else.

    Dragon storm constantly saps HP and stuns, a quick Flciker into focus mode for a hit in, and adept style changing and harmonic combos and anything is going down.

    Spirit theif steals Chi HOT DAMN its kinda clunky but it STEALS CHI its free healing, free spells, free everything.

    Magics: Are mostly useless so dont bother. However if you really gotta know Tempest is the best while Fire is the worst

    Pokemon
    god: mewtwo
    top: Articuno Alakazzam
    High: Garados Charizard Jolteon
    everything else: Not Worth mentioning

    FF8 junctions
    God: Ultima
    top: Triple Life Curagga
    usefull: Reflect Double Haste

    Oh and Star ocean two lets clear some thing up

    broke ass godly: Chisato and Bowman. For two simple reasons Tear Gas and Explosion Pills. SPAM away
    Top: Rena, the ONLY healer in the game. Ashtom; best normal attack in the game abuse the double demon swords berzerk and slayer/meteor rings
    Not worth your time: Everyone else
    Why he in this game? Ernestl hes hard to get(near impossible if your not Trying like a madman) his attacks are garbage his weapons are worse and he denies you that last slot for Chisato. . . what a dueche

    MGS3
    The Joy >>> All

    Life
    Me > you > noobs > Somethign awful
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Renegade wrote:
    Basic Character Classes/Skill Sets

    Best Skill Sets=
    God Tier= Math Skill
    Top Tier= Martial Arts, Draw Out
    Mid Tier= Throw, Geomancy, Battle Skill, Item, Steal, Jump,
    Low Tier= Black Magic, Summon, White Magic,
    Really Low Tier= Time Magic, Yin Yang Magic, Talk Skill, Dance, Basic Skill, Sing,
    Worthless=Charge

    Quick Explanation=
    Math skill is god. Instant, Full Screen, No MP Spells with a selection of 90% of the spells in the game.

    Martial Arts and Draw Out are great for their versatility, Healing, Support, Attack.
    Battle Skill is great w/ Two Swords to lower stats, thus cripping opponents (to perhaps steal). Item is instant healing/revive/cure status. Steal is essential to get good items. Jump takes too long at first and can't easy AT plan (have to do calculations). But with high speed/ Jav2, it's good.
    Throw and Geomancy are ok. Nothing special. Throw is nice with top tier swords... but that's alotta work (or alotta dupe) to get them.
    Magic Skill Sets are crap. Take too damn long. And without proper AT planning, you can really screw up. Only useful spells: BM= Flare WM=Holy and area affect cures. Summons take too long, and are weak, but Golem is hella good.

    Time/Yin Yang/Talk are all craptastic. Dance is worthless, no damage.

    Charge is the worst skill set ever. IT's the skillset that makes archers the worst class in the game by far. Anything over charge 4 you're not going to hit on anyone, and it doesn't do that much more damage.


    Best Special Characters

    God Tier= 1.Reis 2.Orlandu

    Orlandu because he's orlandu and can Night sword all day. Reis because she has two swords and train built in, gets huge stat bonuses, and can use Ribbon/Chantage to make her indestructible. Just put Martial Arts as her secondary skill. Watch the pain.

    Top Tier=Beowulf/Ramza

    Beowulf because Chicken, Shock, and Break are awesome and instant. Ramza's Scream, Yell, And Ultima are pretty good, but his equipment selection is what makes him awesome. He can wear knight swords and stat boosting robes and clothes naturally, the only character who can do so. His magic stat is great in this class, making him a no brainer choice to have math skill.


    Mid Tier= Agrias, Mustadio
    Both of these characters will do a TON of gruntwork in Chapters 2 and 3... but fall off in chapter 4. Agrias is Orlandu Lite (but can use ribbon/chantage). And Mustadio's Snipe skills work WAY more than they should at 8 squares away.

    Low Tier= Meliadoul, Worker 8, Cloud

    Meliadoul's Skills only work on humans, but on those, they're great. You may want to steal instead of break though. Worker 8 is immune to magic, but hurts himself when he attacks. Good range and power though. Cloud pretty much sucks except for Finishing Touch, which is an auto kill on any enemy. Materia Blade is a crappy weapon too.

    Worthless Tier= Rafa, Malak

    So seriously beyond shitty. Random area effect Low Damage skills? You have to be joking. Only good thing about them is Rafa is good at item finding.


    A lot of this is very off. You clearly haven't played this game too in depth. First of all, let me give you some better rankings of the primary abilities.

    God Tier:
    Math Skill (You got this right.)

    Top Tier:
    Summon, Time Magic, Draw Out

    Mid-Tier:
    Punch Art, Yin-Yang Magic, White Magic, Item, Steal, Jump

    Low-Tier:
    Black Magic, Talk Skill, Dance, Sing, Geomancy, Throw

    Bottom-Tier:
    Basic Skill, Charge, Battle Skill

    Explanations:

    Math Skill = Completely broken.

    Summon = I can't believe you didn't put this tops. Huge AOE spells, huge AOE healing, Lich, and Golem. What more do you need? Oh, and with the exception of Lich, the spells NEVER miss, meaning they're completely reliable. And forget that AT preparation shit. If you're a good player, you won't have any problems with AT.

    Time Magic = Ok, first of all, you have Haste, which is very useful because you can Haste multiple allies in one casting. Now, you have Demi, which is a boss killer. Gravity spells destroy bosses in this game. Oh, and there's also Meteor, the most powerful regular spell in the game. It's slow, but it's cool, because Time Mages also come with Short Charge, so no big deal there. And really, that's all you'll need because Short Charge/Meteor/Demi beats the game for you on its own.

    Draw Out = Again, very versatile and very strong. It doesn't even matter that the swords break as long as you keep a good stock. You had this one right.

    Punch Art = Beginners always tend to think this is one of the best movesets in the game. It is very good, but it's not THAT good. Why? Because first of all, the damage isn't as high compared to the top movesets for damage, and it also isn't as high as a few of the lower movesets. And what else is special about it? Oh yeah, healing and reviving. Unfortunately, they aren't 100% chances, and they also have 0 vertical tolerance. This can be a big problem when you need it in the clutch. I would rather stick with the Summoner's huge AOE, 100%, Faith boosted Moogle for a good heal.

    Yin-Yang Magic = Heavily underrated. You've obviously never tried this moveset out to its fullest. First of all, you have Life-Drain, the best boss killer in the game. Then, you also have Pray Faith, which makes all magic users stronger. Oh, and then you can also disable the enemies in a billion different ways. Want to paralyze the enemy while you focus on another stronger one? Use Sleep. Want to finish one off quickly? Use Pray Faith/Petrify. This set is versatile. Oh, and did I mention Life Drain? It makes all bosses in the game a joke.

    White Magic = Healing and Holy. The only reason its not higher is because the healing CAN miss. But for offense, Holy is all you'll need.

    Item = The best healing in the game. Bottom-line. If this were a rating of classes instead of just the abilities, then Chemists would be god-tier because of Auto Potion.

    Steal = Forget about the useless shit you can steal. Steal Heart is ALL that matters. Charm is unbelievably powerful. Unbelievably powerful.

    Jump = It's pretty obvious why this thing is so good.

    Black Magic = First of all, this is the worst magic set by far. All of its spells can miss due to magic evasion, including its big spell, Flare. And... Flare sucks. You know why? Because Holy is better in every single way imaginable. It's stronger, faster, less MP, and cheaper to learn.

    Talk Skill = Generally useless, but you can lower/raise Br/Fa, which is very important. Otherwise, it's got some neat weapons, but none that are too reliable. However, it's better than the bottom-tier.

    Dance = Heavily underrated. Imagine this situation. A Dancer hiding in the far back using Nameless Dance over and over again, while your melee units rush up and fight. Not too fair for the enemies huh? Still, it's a bit too inconsistent and slow at times.

    Sing = Same basic thing, except its on your allies. And oh, Dance is better because crippling enemies is better than boosting allies.

    Geomancy = Good in every way, except that its very weak. True, it can be boosted to do a good deal, but so can just about everything else. Status-effects are very useful, however, but its not as reliable.

    Basic Skill = How is this above Charge? All you have is Accumulate, really. You can finish off a weakened enemy with Dash if you think you'll miss, but really, it sucks. And yes, you can knock people off ledges, but these are very specific situations.

    Charge = Pretty useless, but you can get in some Charges usually, boosting your damage, which can't be that bad.

    Battle Skill = The ONLY time this is useful is if the character with this equipped also has a gun. Otherwise, it's pointless. And, even with a gun, its unreliable. I mean, what would you rather do, break an enemy's weapon? Or throw a huge summon on him, killing him, and probably anyone else near him?


    Now, for the special characters.

    I'll start off by saying no character in this game is bad.

    God Tier:
    Orlandu = He's in this category alone. Nothing else but an Assassin is as good as this guy. He can beat the game by himself without any serious trouble and without changing classes. Can Reis do that?

    Top Tier:
    Reis = Unbelievable stat growth, and very good abilities. Dragoner as a class is pretty good, but she really shines when you level her up with that insane growth and make her into some other kind of killing machine.

    Beowulf = Stupidly good abilities. You got this one right.

    Mid Tier:
    Ramza = Really good stats and abilities, but just not as good as Beowulf's brokage or Reis's insane versatility.

    Agrias = You just don't beat Holy Sword.

    Worker 8 = This thing wrecks because its the best tank in the game. It also has huge range and power. Seriously, very, very few things can bring this down.

    Byblos = Shock and Parasite. Unfair.

    Low Tier:
    Rafa = Random? Yes. Low damage? Hell no! Again, you clearly haven't tried her out enough. Plus, did you know that Heaven Knights can equip sticks and have near Ninja level speed? Betcha didn't.

    Cloud = Needs Materia Blade, and even then, only Finishing Touch is worthwhile.

    Meliadoul = Her inability to use her skills on bosses really does drop her an entire tier.

    Mustadio = Can use guns and immobilizes enemies. Unfortunately, its not for the longest time, and can't do damage worth squat unless you have those elemental guns.

    Bottom Tier:
    Malak = Even he doesn't suck. It's basically Rafa with lower damage on everything and lower speed also. However, he can still use sticks and do quality damage if you lower his faith enough.

    There. I think that list works a little better.
  • MagnificoMagnifico Joined: Posts: 840
    PsiPhi wrote:
    Reasons for my tierings:

    1) Drache - Top because of his speed and his drop attack. He can play run away with his ability to fire one way and move the other, or he can play aggressively and go for his drop attack (which will kill any other mech in one hit). Also, by tapping block you can clear bridges, thus slowing down all of the other mechs.

    2) Prometheus - High because of his strength at long and short range. Prometheus is the only mech that has bullets which travel all of the way across the screen, this means that all other mechs will probably take a few hits before they get close. Also his long range shots do the damage of 8 regular shots. His melee weapon will kill any mech if they are caught in it for more than a second which eliminates hth as an effective way of defeting him. His floating mines do enough damage to prevent enemys from trying to drop from above (except for Drache who can survive enough mines to destroy Prometheus unless Drache is dropping in a very high chasm). The best way to fight him is at midrange, where all other mechs will still take a lot of hits (and a whole lot of hits if Prometheus has seekers or bouncy bullets). His only real weakness is that he has to take elevators which leave him very vunerable. But you can win most matches on the bottom of the stage (since his slugs travel all of the way across the stage, then go eight ways when they explode). Also fighting Drache is a problem since Prometheus is so slow, hiding in a narrow corridor is the best way to fight him, and this isn't even all that effective since Drache can move quickly and strafe Prometheus.

    3) Nitro - Mid-High because of his versitility. He is quick, he can fly and his melee weapon has good range and damage. Because of his ability to fly he can rush the enemy mech down and melee them to death, this is especially effective when combined with a grenade launcher. He can also use his X button shield to mount a safe mid rang attack or he can use it to do damage to an enemy which is chasing him. The only mechs he really has a problem with are Prometheus because his fire kills Nitro quick, and Drache because his drop is always a risk.

    4) Havoc - Mid. Havoc's melee weapon is ok, better range than Nitro's but less damage. His bullets are stronger than the other mech's (and they look cooler too). He can't fly which doesn't enable him to chase other mechs. But his X button dash lets him move very fast and jump really far. Also when using his dash bullets he fires during it will queue up in front of him, this enables him to make a great hit and run mech.

    5) Spider - Mid-Low because he is too fragile. Spider is very fast, very manuverable, has great damage potential, his block makes him invisible, but his is just too fragile to be ranked higher. A direct attack against anything (except Ballistic) will get you killed. His best tactic is the super deadly web trap (I assume this is what you mean by infinite). The real problem with this is that it is only a true infinite versus Ballistic (in ball form) and Prometheus (in the air). The other mechs can either shoot their way out in the air, or melee out on the ground. Granted it does massive damage, but if the other player escapes spider is dead.

    6) Ballistic - Low because he can't move and shoot. His melee weapon is his only means of doing damage on the move, but it is so weak that it is better used as a means of moving around. The only time it is really effective is in narrow corridors and even then the other mech's melee weapon will probably kill Ballistic first. Charging his X button attack for a big shot then tapping it for a bunch of medium sized shots is his best tactic. However, this takes so long to charge that the other player has plenty of time to move in and melee you, unless they are Prometheus (but Prometheus wins if a fire fight so that really doesn't matter). Also, hit and run tactics don't work since it takes Ballistic so long to "unpack" before he can shoot.

    Feel free to argue with me, but it is going to take a lot of convincing for me to believe that Ballistic is top.

    Drache: Landing a power dive in a high-level match is not too common of an occurance, but the threat of it still helps. It is downright impossible to land a power dive against Ballistic. But he's still good for the other reasons you mentioned. His problem being that he relies on items for real muscle, but because of his speed it's not a problem at all. Which is why i ranked him highly, but definitely not #1 because he loses to Ballistic without getting to say shit about it. IMO a character who has a 1:9 match cannot be #1, when their are other characters with no huge weakness.

    Prometheus: You say he beats all the bots at close range. This is true. Only a fool fights him at close range unless they're properly equipped though. Anyone with rockets can kill him for free using either a glitch with rockets. Without rockets, most bots can hit and run him to death on most levels. He's seriously not reliable. I've played many very very good players, and many of them don't even bother with Prometheus - if they scramble to him, they abandon him immediately and switch to a new mech. He is ok on some levels though.

    Nitro: His meele weapon is th strongest weapon in the game aside from a glitched rocket and power dive. It can kill Prometheus in just 3-4 swings. However, it's still one of the worst melee weapons. Havoc can EASILY dodge it. Drache will never get hit by it. Ballistic can't relaly be hit cleanly with it. It's ok against Spider. You won't get close enough to another Nitro. So fact is, it's very situational, and really onyl relevant against Spider and Prometheus. He is versatile, you are right about that. But he has too many bad matches. He is COMPLETELY outclassed by a Drache with ANY sort of weapon. He's not good against Ballistic, and Spider webs will kill him if hes caught. so in the end, hes just average.

    Havoc: Hit and run, hit and run, hit and run, with good power. Wher you have him ranked is about right. No arguments.

    Spider: There is no argument in the world to put him at #5. It's just not even imaginable, you must not have seen him played to his greatest potential. He's in fact not fragiel like you say. Drache and Prometheus are more fragile than he is, he has equal vitality to nitro and Havoc and Ballistic (sort of... Ballistic effectively has the most vitality because most attacks dont connect cleanly against him). His web trap CAN BE an infinite against almost every character if you do it right. A webbed Havoc, Spider, or Nitro is usually dead against a good Spider player. Drache can often escape. Ballistic can always escape if hes grounded. Prometheus can always escape. Anyone with rockets can always escape on the ground. So you're just flat out wrong about Spider's web trap, which explains why you ranked him so low. Oh yeah, Spider can use the rocket glitch more effectively than anyone else in the game.

    Ballistic: Ballistic does not NEEd to move and shoot. Ballistic's main weapon is his ball attack. There's not much relaly to explain here- its the most complicated weapon in the game, and if used right will outpower ANY OTHER MECH besidse Prometheus. So basically, EVERYONE except Prometheus is forced to fight an uphill battle against Ballistic. Prometheus is good because balling Prometheus is just foolish. Spider has a chance because he can run away with webs and stall. Nitro has a chance because he can stall with hlaser shields. Noone else can stop Ballistic from pounding them over, and over, and over until theyre dead. That's why hes top. The best Metal Warrior player in the world can't beat my Ballistic when hes Havoc or Drache.

    We can always play on ZSNES and i can show ya what i mean about Ballistic and Spider though. Really those are the only grossly inaccurate descriptions in your post. You're obviously a good player, you just haven't seen the two hardest to use bots used to their potential. Once you see how dangerous they can be you'll be on the right track =D. Playing good Spiders has made a great many players swear off the game forever
  • RenegadeRenegade Joined: Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    DaBoss... First, don't try to assume I don't know anything about the game b/c my opinions are different than yours.

    You went into that whole spiel, but our opinions are different on only a couple of issues.

    Reis vs Orlandu= Honestly, It all comes down to Reis being the best female character, and she can equip Chantage and Ribbon. She can't die, and is immune to all status effects. So, yes, she can beat the game by herself. Innate two swords is amazing. Her innate MA and MP are better than Orlandu's, so if you choose to use other skill sets (Math/Draw/Punch), she is amazing at them. Orlandu has better range (better move, more reach on skills and can use Move +3), and a VASTLY better skill set. But I give a slight edge to Reis due to being able to equip Chantage/Ribbon. I've seen Orlandu humbled plenty of times by Celia and Lede.

    Anyway... On Rafa/Malak. I tried so hard to make them work. Yes, I know they have sticks. Only thing I liked about them, really. I tried to make Malak into a 0 faith/97 brave blade grasping Hell Knight... and he still didn't pull his weight.



    ***PHYSICAL SKILLS****
    Punch Art- Sheer Versatility. decent damage, some range, and some healing properties. Sure, the vert range sucks. Gotta gameplan for that. But the versatility makes the set. And you can regain MP with Chakra. Which is very useful.

    Basic Skill vs Charge... at least I can use accumulate. Charge is "free" damage, I guess... but so is accumulate. Accumulate is also the best JP builder in the game. Adv= basic skill.

    Battle Skill- I can see where a lotta people say this skill set isn't good... but time and time again I go back to it. I don't use it w/ guns... I use Ninja's and/or 2 swords. Ninja's work best since they move far and fast. Two swipes of Power Break cripples any enemy in the game, and you can do whatever you want (build JP, steal, item find, whatever)

    ***MAGICAL SKILLS***
    Magic in General= I think you overrate. Charge times are the suck, when there are so many skills (even with AOE) that do damage NOW, when you need to kill enemies, as opposed to when enemies can move, you mage get attacked, etc. Also, with few exceptions... classes with good MA can't take a damn hit, and if you want high faith to cast magic well, you take MORE damage from the magic. Lose/Lose situation, IMO.

    Time Mage= I will grant you I haven't messed around w/ Demi much. But most of the bosses die really quickly regardless. Haste is good. Meteor takes too much damn time. So, IMO, only thing this SkillSet has (i guess outside of boss battles) is haste and a really slow super spell. Wheee.

    Yin Yang= Best thing about this set is that it doesn't rely on MA. So fighters and such can use it with good effeciancy. Unfortunately, you'd rather attack with those guys and KILL the enemy, not put them to sleep or some such. While I guess they can be useful, the presence of Beowulf makes this skill set obsolete.

    Black Magic- Flare and Frog are the only Decent abilities, IMO since it locks on, and won't hurt your party. The Charge times suck, IMO

    White- Cure and Holy, You're right. But they have charge times... zzzz..

    Summon Magic= Honestly, I like it better than black or white. And you can't Math it either, so that makes it unique. But... the MP costs and AT are VERY prohibitive. Can't do both Short Charge AND Half of MP. Golem is by far the best skill. Almost worth having someone with the skill set alone. But I always find myself either planning 2 minutes for AT times, or having a Summon only hit one person. The Ifrit/Shiva/Titan trio are fast, but do crap for damage. Anything more than that, you're using two turns to do one spell. I hate that. And having Short Charge as ESSENTIAL to use skills (Limit.. cough..) does not a good skill set make.


    But yeah. Thanks for engaging in the discussion. That's just how I see things. Don't assume i'm a beginner though. I've master filed this game a number of times. I just have different opinions on usefulness.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Double Dragon 3
    Chin > all
  • Higher-JinHigher-Jin MvC2 Moderator Joined: Posts: 1,953
    Renegade wrote:
    DaBoss... First, don't try to assume I don't know anything about the game b/c my opinions are different than yours.

    You went into that whole spiel, but our opinions are different on only a couple of issues.

    Reis vs Orlandu= Honestly, It all comes down to Reis being the best female character, and she can equip Chantage and Ribbon. She can't die, and is immune to all status effects. So, yes, she can beat the game by herself. Innate two swords is amazing. Her innate MA and MP are better than Orlandu's, so if you choose to use other skill sets (Math/Draw/Punch), she is amazing at them. Orlandu has better range (better move, more reach on skills and can use Move +3), and a VASTLY better skill set. But I give a slight edge to Reis due to being able to equip Chantage/Ribbon. I've seen Orlandu humbled plenty of times by Celia and Lede.

    Anyway... On Rafa/Malak. I tried so hard to make them work. Yes, I know they have sticks. Only thing I liked about them, really. I tried to make Malak into a 0 faith/97 brave blade grasping Hell Knight... and he still didn't pull his weight.



    ***PHYSICAL SKILLS****
    Punch Art- Sheer Versatility. decent damage, some range, and some healing properties. Sure, the vert range sucks. Gotta gameplan for that. But the versatility makes the set. And you can regain MP with Chakra. Which is very useful.

    Basic Skill vs Charge... at least I can use accumulate. Charge is "free" damage, I guess... but so is accumulate. Accumulate is also the best JP builder in the game. Adv= basic skill.

    Battle Skill- I can see where a lotta people say this skill set isn't good... but time and time again I go back to it. I don't use it w/ guns... I use Ninja's and/or 2 swords. Ninja's work best since they move far and fast. Two swipes of Power Break cripples any enemy in the game, and you can do whatever you want (build JP, steal, item find, whatever)

    ***MAGICAL SKILLS***
    Magic in General= I think you overrate. Charge times are the suck, when there are so many skills (even with AOE) that do damage NOW, when you need to kill enemies, as opposed to when enemies can move, you mage get attacked, etc. Also, with few exceptions... classes with good MA can't take a damn hit, and if you want high faith to cast magic well, you take MORE damage from the magic. Lose/Lose situation, IMO.

    Time Mage= I will grant you I haven't messed around w/ Demi much. But most of the bosses die really quickly regardless. Haste is good. Meteor takes too much damn time. So, IMO, only thing this SkillSet has (i guess outside of boss battles) is haste and a really slow super spell. Wheee.

    Yin Yang= Best thing about this set is that it doesn't rely on MA. So fighters and such can use it with good effeciancy. Unfortunately, you'd rather attack with those guys and KILL the enemy, not put them to sleep or some such. While I guess they can be useful, the presence of Beowulf makes this skill set obsolete.

    Black Magic- Flare and Frog are the only Decent abilities, IMO since it locks on, and won't hurt your party. The Charge times suck, IMO

    White- Cure and Holy, You're right. But they have charge times... zzzz..

    Summon Magic= Honestly, I like it better than black or white. And you can't Math it either, so that makes it unique. But... the MP costs and AT are VERY prohibitive. Can't do both Short Charge AND Half of MP. Golem is by far the best skill. Almost worth having someone with the skill set alone. But I always find myself either planning 2 minutes for AT times, or having a Summon only hit one person. The Ifrit/Shiva/Titan trio are fast, but do crap for damage. Anything more than that, you're using two turns to do one spell. I hate that. And having Short Charge as ESSENTIAL to use skills (Limit.. cough..) does not a good skill set make.


    But yeah. Thanks for engaging in the discussion. That's just how I see things. Don't assume i'm a beginner though. I've master filed this game a number of times. I just have different opinions on usefulness.

    I experimented with short charge + move mp up for the whole "half mp" problem. Priest seems to suck but I never got holy. Raise sucks and Raise 2 is really slow and has a chance to fail aswell.
    The defensive bonuses are pretty crummy IMO and really almost everything he can do has a decent chance of missing at least when I played him (i restarted just so i could try to make a good priest but I don't have wall, reraise, or holy yet)
    Either we all live in a decent world, or nobody does. - George Orwell
  • Terry_nbTerry_nb ... Joined: Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Diablo 2 LOD (from best to worst, all IMO)

    sorc (fire spell damage is pure ownage thx to synergies)
    barb/amazon
    pala/necro
    assasin
    druid (only 2 builds are effective)
    SFA 4 needs to be made ...
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Renegade wrote:
    DaBoss... First, don't try to assume I don't know anything about the game b/c my opinions are different than yours.

    You went into that whole spiel, but our opinions are different on only a couple of issues.

    Reis vs Orlandu= Honestly, It all comes down to Reis being the best female character, and she can equip Chantage and Ribbon. She can't die, and is immune to all status effects. So, yes, she can beat the game by herself. Innate two swords is amazing. Her innate MA and MP are better than Orlandu's, so if you choose to use other skill sets (Math/Draw/Punch), she is amazing at them. Orlandu has better range (better move, more reach on skills and can use Move +3), and a VASTLY better skill set. But I give a slight edge to Reis due to being able to equip Chantage/Ribbon. I've seen Orlandu humbled plenty of times by Celia and Lede.

    Anyway... On Rafa/Malak. I tried so hard to make them work. Yes, I know they have sticks. Only thing I liked about them, really. I tried to make Malak into a 0 faith/97 brave blade grasping Hell Knight... and he still didn't pull his weight.



    ***PHYSICAL SKILLS****
    Punch Art- Sheer Versatility. decent damage, some range, and some healing properties. Sure, the vert range sucks. Gotta gameplan for that. But the versatility makes the set. And you can regain MP with Chakra. Which is very useful.

    Basic Skill vs Charge... at least I can use accumulate. Charge is "free" damage, I guess... but so is accumulate. Accumulate is also the best JP builder in the game. Adv= basic skill.

    Battle Skill- I can see where a lotta people say this skill set isn't good... but time and time again I go back to it. I don't use it w/ guns... I use Ninja's and/or 2 swords. Ninja's work best since they move far and fast. Two swipes of Power Break cripples any enemy in the game, and you can do whatever you want (build JP, steal, item find, whatever)

    ***MAGICAL SKILLS***
    Magic in General= I think you overrate. Charge times are the suck, when there are so many skills (even with AOE) that do damage NOW, when you need to kill enemies, as opposed to when enemies can move, you mage get attacked, etc. Also, with few exceptions... classes with good MA can't take a damn hit, and if you want high faith to cast magic well, you take MORE damage from the magic. Lose/Lose situation, IMO.

    Time Mage= I will grant you I haven't messed around w/ Demi much. But most of the bosses die really quickly regardless. Haste is good. Meteor takes too much damn time. So, IMO, only thing this SkillSet has (i guess outside of boss battles) is haste and a really slow super spell. Wheee.

    Yin Yang= Best thing about this set is that it doesn't rely on MA. So fighters and such can use it with good effeciancy. Unfortunately, you'd rather attack with those guys and KILL the enemy, not put them to sleep or some such. While I guess they can be useful, the presence of Beowulf makes this skill set obsolete.

    Black Magic- Flare and Frog are the only Decent abilities, IMO since it locks on, and won't hurt your party. The Charge times suck, IMO

    White- Cure and Holy, You're right. But they have charge times... zzzz..

    Summon Magic= Honestly, I like it better than black or white. And you can't Math it either, so that makes it unique. But... the MP costs and AT are VERY prohibitive. Can't do both Short Charge AND Half of MP. Golem is by far the best skill. Almost worth having someone with the skill set alone. But I always find myself either planning 2 minutes for AT times, or having a Summon only hit one person. The Ifrit/Shiva/Titan trio are fast, but do crap for damage. Anything more than that, you're using two turns to do one spell. I hate that. And having Short Charge as ESSENTIAL to use skills (Limit.. cough..) does not a good skill set make.


    But yeah. Thanks for engaging in the discussion. That's just how I see things. Don't assume i'm a beginner though. I've master filed this game a number of times. I just have different opinions on usefulness.


    Hey, sorry if I sounded like I was offending. I wasn't trying to. Now, first of all, I wanna start off by saying that FFT is my favorite game. I've spent tons and tons of time on the game itself and have gone through countless of challenges and all that other jazz. So, some of the stuff I'm saying isn't even opinion. I've tested it so many times that it's basically fact. Now, you bring up some good points, so I'll address those issues.

    Orlandu vs. Reis: Honestly, the only serious advantage Reis has on Orlandu is Chantage/Ribbon. Everything else is seriously moot because Orlandu is such an unbelievable killing machine that everything else pales in comparison. And you also stated her innate MP and MA are better and then listed other skillsets that she could use, those being Punch Art/Draw Out/Math Skill. Draw Out is good, but All Swordskill is better. Punch Art is based off of PA, so Orlandu would be the better Monk. And Math Skill is completely moot because its so broken that ANYONE can be good with Math Skill. Trust me, a Math Skill'ing Rafa is a GOD. Also, Orlandu getting fucked up by the Assassins doesn't really mean anything because if you know what you're doing, not even your Squire should get screwed by those two. Their patterns are completely predictable. And finally, when I said Orlandu was able to beat the game by himself, I meant without switching classes. Reis can't do that. But still, that's a moot point either way.

    Rafa/Malak: Well, all I can say is that they're not completely worthless. But if you just don't like them, then there's nothing much I can do about that.

    Punch Art: I agree and basically said all that anyways.

    Basic Skill: I can agree with that, but Basic Skill is definitely not a whole tier higher ":^)"

    Battle Skill: Using it with two swords is just a bad strat, sorry. Wouldn't you much rather attack the enemy instead? And if you wanna cripple them to do stuff with them, use Sleep, Paralyze, etc. Also, Speed Break is a better crippler anyways.

    Magic in General: All wrong man. Charge times are bad, but not bad to the point where the magic themselves are bad. Charge times can be gotten around with good play skill. And yes, there are abilities that work instantly, but generally, those abilities are not as good. And again, with good playing, it shouldn't matter if you have high faith. It all comes down to how good you are at the game.

    Time Mage = Short Charge/Meteor is faster than Holy. I kid you not. So you have a boss killer, Haste, and pretty darn fast super spell.

    Yin Yang = Your argument works, but in that case, Battle Skill is even stupider because this set is MUCH better at crippling than Battle Skill is. And yes, Beowulf does make this set obsolete, but there is only one Beowulf. You can have multiple Oracles. And you can use this set for Life Drain, if nothing else. Life Drain is tied for the fastest spell in the game, does 25% of max hp, and absorbs the damage back. It MURDERS bosses. I kill Altima2 with this thing before she MOVES.

    Black Magic = Yeah, it's not too good.

    White Magic = Charge times don't matter when you're good.

    Summon = COMPLETELY wrong here. First of all, you don't need Short Charge here. The summons aren't that slow. And I don't know what you mean when you say Ifrit/Shiva/Ramuh do low damage. You can boost your character till they do really, really good damage for their speed and MP cost. Plus, they NEVER miss and can hit a SHITload of enemies in one casting. Plus, there is Golem and Moogle. Don't forget, MA can be boosted. You really never need to use anything above Titan and this set is still TOO good.

    I'm not assuming you're a beginner, but I can tell you haven't tried everything out to its fullest. I can't blame you; there's a LOT of shit to experiment with.

    And honestly, master filing really isn't anything. This game is easy to begin with, so taking on a challenge is better. Such as beating the game without switching classes, etc.

    And yes, it's fun to talk about this kind of stuff ":^)"
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Back on the DW topic...

    I've played DW 2-5, and I gotta tell ya...
    no matter HOW many times you guys talk smack about the lack of speed on the Wei side...

    I will STILL own you with Xu Zhu. That's right. The fat guy.
    Reason being, I can parry. Reason being, I don't NEED to be fast. You guys can run to me...I'll be waiting and block ya...or better yet, parry your attack. Plus, charge in the air is just awesomely good with him -- I call it the Pogo-Ball. So, go ahead...you can have your spear characters, and flashy quick happy characters -- but unless you're a Musou Token charged-up Lu-Bu...

    I'm not worried one bit. ;)
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    DW tiers should go like this.........

    God: Lu bu

    And then comes these factors:

    Crowd clearing supers
    Spears
    Good Triangle move

    If you don't have a good crowd clearing super you, such as Zhou Tai then you pretty much suck. Spears have huge range and attack random fools. A good triangle move that can dizzy people or crowd clear is good.

    This game is pretty much decided by beating gate captains, which is pretty easy to do. Broken game, but one of my favorites.
  • TrueSephirothTrueSephiroth Joined: Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Strike wrote:
    You're right, I wouldn't rate Ayla as a top tier. She gets Bronze Fist at level 96; before that she gets Iron Fist at level 72; and for the rest of the time, she was stuck with just a regular Fist. By the time she's hitting for 9999 damage, you would've been lightyears passed where the game actually presented any sort of challenge to you. If I were to tier RPGs, I would generally base them around a "standard" or "normal" playthrough conditions. When you've gone out of your way to break the game by leveling everyone to the max to the point where everything has become a joke, then a tier based on that wouldn't really give anything informative other than: who can cause the most overkill.

    Again, you keep bringing up 9999 x8 with Locke while ignoring the very obvious fact that you overleveled your characters to a point where nothing poses a threat to any of them. At that point, it's not the character himself/herself that is good; it's the "Level 99" part that is making you do the damage. If you want to tier FF6 as "the person who can provide the most overkill when max leveled," yes, Locke will be #1. If you play through the game without maxing everyone out, and without abusing crap like Vanish/Doom, you'd actually see the worth of each character, and your opinion might change then.

    Locke's speed is constantly overrated. The way FF6's ATB system works is, as long as a character's ATB bar is full, he/she gets a turn. This takes into account all the attack animation as well. Locke's bar will probably fill up first because of his high speed, but battles will generally play out like this:

    1. Locke's ATB bar fills up first, Locke attacks (animates)
    2. Character 2's ATB bar fills up next, Character 2 attacks (animates)
    3. Characters 3-4; Enemies' ATB bars fill up, they attack in turn (animates)
    4. Locke, who probably had a full bar sometime during step 3 STILL has to wait for his turn because he has to wait for all the attack animation of step 3 to finish
    5. Repeat from step 1

    All Locke's speed does is probably ensure that he gets to attack first and that his bar fills up faster. On paper, it sounds really good; but in practice, it's really not as spectacular as everyone makes his speed out to be. Locke is still forced to wait until everyone who got a full ATB bar after him finishes their animation, at which point he'll go again and the cycle repeats.

    "Big 4" meaning those who can equip Illumina... that's a pretty shoddy top tier requirement. Especially because:

    1. You don't get the Illumina until over half the game is over, essentially ignoring the whole WoB and decent chunk of WoR.
    2. The way you're judging things is by maxing everyone's level to 99, which I've stated why that type of ranking really means jack about how the character plays.

    Vanish/Doom; Vanish/X-Zone is broken. I think if a person was serious about making a character tier list in FF6, they'd disregard that. I've gone through the game with most characters at Level 6 and never having to use Vanish/Doom; so don't think that it is impossible to beat the game without it. You underestimate magic because you used a broken glitch. You might as well just make your tier list:

    Top tier: Level 99 characters, Vanish/Doom
    Bottom tier: anything else

    But then again, what good is that tier list going to be?

    Magic is very good if you play through the game "normally," and that Magic Power stat affects a lot more attacks than just spells.

    Yes or No buddy, do the skills of the individual mean jack crap in the end? I believe the answer is yes, and just because I use the vanish/x-zone I'm not "playing" it normally...wtf are you talking about, mind telling me in a game where people "will" not use anything to there advantage...yes, I thought so. Vanish/X-Zone is still part of the game and thus should be considered into the factor, excluding this would be comparable to excluding Magneto's infinite saying it's not "normal" because it is a glitch is it not and thus shouldn't be considered normal... :lame: .

    I have played it straight through to the end, however maxing the characters of an rpg has usually always been a priority. Character's worth are only decent from WoB to what...slightly after into WoR because everyone starts to do insane damage, in the end, it's who deals the most damage and the fastest. However my saying is this, can you say that a character is not good until you have completely showed their full potential? Which is the very reason why I lvled them up to lvl 99...and wow...not everyone is as shitty as you thought they would be, everyone can be good, this is where speed comes into play...wow, everyone can be Top Tier :encore: , so to put, in FFVI, at their full potential, everyone can beat ass, period, because character individuality means jack in the end, at their Full Potential.

    Locke is set at the top, because he's the quickest in the end, wether you love it or hate it, with the equips, he can own, while everyone else can just sit and watch :clap: .
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." - Vince Lombardi

    Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting - Ryu
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    If you take a few hours of your time to purposely overlevel your characters to level 99, then yes, each character's unique abilities will disappear. Hence the whole point of NOT tiering FF6 characters at level 99 when everything has become a joke.

    Vanish/Doom; Vanish/X-Zone is broken. Everyone knows that it is. In a tier about how good a CHARACTER is in FF6, Vanish/Doom speaks nothing about the user. Vanish/Doom is not comparable Magneto's infinites because infinities are actually part of normal MvC2 play. When you can Vanish/Doom your way through any enemy AND boss in the game, that should tell you how broken it is. Vanish/Doom is more comparable to MvC2's Gambit glitch and winning with Time Over than anything else.

    Again, you've maxed your characters to the point where their indivuality doesn't matter, where the enemies don't matter, and where you're only ranking who provides the most overkill. How a character operates at Level 99 means jack shit because what kind of tier list based on overleveled characters would it prove? Just that Locke can do 9999 x8 instead of another character doing 9999 x4? When either is enough to kill just about anything. At that point, tiering them becomes moot; a tier of godcharacters has no practical importance or relevance. The game is a joke then.

    You obviously didn't read or understand how I showed that Locke's speed isn't much of a benefit. Unless you purposely take the time out to level him up with Odin and gain around +30 or more speed through Esper bonuses to the point where Locke can act his turn, and fill his ATB bar a second time before the other character's are finished filling their first bar, all Locke's high speed ensures is that he'll get to attack first. His normal speed is not fast enough that he'll be getting double turns for your other character's one turn simply due to how FF6's ATB system works. Once Locke is finished attacking, he has to wait for all the animation of the other characters and enemies to finish, even if he has a full bar, before he can attack again.

    Locke's often misplaced at the top only because people either:
    1. overrate his speed stat, thinking that high speed = more attacks in battle
    2. people overlevel him to the point where the game doesn't matter anymore and show that Locke can provide the most overkill
    3. people think that equipping the Illumina is the only factor for determining top tier

    Or some combination of the three above. So basically, your tier list is this:

    Top tier: Level 99 characters who can do the most overkill
    Middle tier: Vanish/Doom; other Level 99 characters
    Bottom: nothing

    Ain't really much of a tier list. But hey, if you like to tier the game when your characters are all basically the same, and the only difference is based on their equips, go right ahead. It's just that kind of tier list ultimately doesn't give any information about each individual character, and therefore is kinda worthless.
  • noodlemannoodleman Cancer of GTASF Joined: Posts: 5,165
    for FFT:

    why did no one mention teleport and blade grasp? Teleport is awesome in Deep Dungeon since there is no height restriction and you can walk through walls. As long as you stay within 4 panels, teleport pretty much never fails, 5 gets iffy, but still relatively consistent.

    Blade Grasp makes you immune to 90% of all enemies in the game.

    female black mage with math skill is by far the best class/skill combo. I would rank them (with the right equipment) above any special characters, even TG Cid. reasoning? ribbon makes things broken, faith rod makes her magic never miss. She doesn't need to move to kill people, meaning she recovers AT faster. Add in some haste, and she'll clear the board long before TG Cid can.

    I was never a fan of Worker 8. you can't haste him/heal him without someone using the Item skill, which is a waste of a slot. he doesn't move very fast/far, can't learn anything useful, and stats were mediocore compared to broken items that you can equip onto other characters.

    For chrono trigger:

    Marle + Lucca combo is awesome. Antipode team spell is awesome.
    Basically Crono attacking/lumminare all day, and just antipode away and you win.

    FF6: I dunno, i cheated with game genie to dup items :P

    Disgaea: Majin > * You only need majin's, and yoshi tsuna is the most broken weapon ever.
    "You'd be better off falling asleep with the taste of my crotch in your mouth." - Miyavi

    "no no! it don't hurt if spoon is greasy!" - Zangief Chronicles.
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    noodleman wrote:
    for FFT:

    why did no one mention teleport and blade grasp? Teleport is awesome in Deep Dungeon since there is no height restriction and you can walk through walls. As long as you stay within 4 panels, teleport pretty much never fails, 5 gets iffy, but still relatively consistent.

    Blade Grasp makes you immune to 90% of all enemies in the game.

    female black mage with math skill is by far the best class/skill combo. I would rank them (with the right equipment) above any special characters, even TG Cid. reasoning? ribbon makes things broken, faith rod makes her magic never miss. She doesn't need to move to kill people, meaning she recovers AT faster. Add in some haste, and she'll clear the board long before TG Cid can.

    I was never a fan of Worker 8. you can't haste him/heal him without someone using the Item skill, which is a waste of a slot. he doesn't move very fast/far, can't learn anything useful, and stats were mediocore compared to broken items that you can equip onto other characters.

    For chrono trigger:

    Marle + Lucca combo is awesome. Antipode team spell is awesome.
    Basically Crono attacking/lumminare all day, and just antipode away and you win.

    FF6: I dunno, i cheated with game genie to dup items :P

    Disgaea: Majin > * You only need majin's, and yoshi tsuna is the most broken weapon ever.


    Well, we were comparing primary skillsets. And TG Cid is god among all the special characters, but anything with Math Skill is better.
  • noodlemannoodleman Cancer of GTASF Joined: Posts: 5,165
    DaBoss wrote:
    Well, we were comparing primary skillsets. And TG Cid is god among all the special characters, but anything with Math Skill is better.

    except TG Cid with Math skill hahaha
    "You'd be better off falling asleep with the taste of my crotch in your mouth." - Miyavi

    "no no! it don't hurt if spoon is greasy!" - Zangief Chronicles.
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    PiMacleod wrote:
    Back on the DW topic...

    I've played DW 2-5, and I gotta tell ya...
    no matter HOW many times you guys talk smack about the lack of speed on the Wei side...

    I will STILL own you with Xu Zhu. That's right. The fat guy.
    Reason being, I can parry. Reason being, I don't NEED to be fast. You guys can run to me...I'll be waiting and block ya...or better yet, parry your attack. Plus, charge in the air is just awesomely good with him -- I call it the Pogo-Ball. So, go ahead...you can have your spear characters, and flashy quick happy characters -- but unless you're a Musou Token charged-up Lu-Bu...

    I'm not worried one bit. ;)

    Maybe one on one. Considering that the games (especially DW5) are based more on beating lots of little shits than one on one fights, speed and range are very important. Granted, he is a lot beefier in DW5 than in previous incarnations due to ultimate weapon being light, but the Wei kingdom still pales in comparison to the others (except the other group).

    In DW5, btw, Zuo Ci is the ultimate broken character (think Ma Chao charge on Shadow Harness, but mobile), puts Lu Bu to shame. Lu Bu is still second best however.

    For FF6, Locke's speed does come into play because the majority of the time, he attacks first, regardless of what you're fighting. Fight a Chaos Dragon or a Brachosaur, and you want that first attack. Locke is fast enough that he almost always has first attack in battle, which a lot of characters can't do. Locke has (as do all of the big four) an incredibly good equipment set. He is one of the few characters with defense piercing weapons (two, Atma and Valiant), has access to heavy armor (Force and Genji being among the best armors), and is one of the few characters who can still be effective in the back row (due to boomerangs, yeah, they kinda suck). The only time he is not all that great is in the WoB, but so are most of the cast. Once you get him in WoR, he is definitely one of the best.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Exclude leveling up to 99 (or ever taking the time to excessively over-level); and exclude Vanish/Doom, and then ask yourself, "What can Locke do striking first that makes him so good?" IMO, not much that someone else can't do better. I don't think Chaos Dragons are that bad of a fight where one would need a first-strike in order to win. Brachosaur, I would agree that having the first strike would be a major advantage because "Diaster" can wipe out an entire party if not properly prepared. But then again, how often do you fight Brachosaurs? The fight itself is limited to the Dragon Forest, which is primarily only used for power-leveling anyway, and even then isn't it a 1-in-8 chance to even fight one as the Tyranosaurs are much more prevalent?

    Locke's good equipment set speaks more about the equipment than it does him. Yes, he can use Illumina, Force Armor, Force Shield... but Terra, Celes, and Edgar can also, and outdo Locke in other areas and in the entire WoB. Not to mention by the time most people do get the Illumina, the game is nearly over.

    I wouldn't say most of the cast suck in the WoB; that would imply the enemies have the upper hand over the majority of your party for over half the game. Edgar's tools; Gau's Rages (Templar, Rhodox, Marshal, StrayCat, Pterdon, Aspik, Behemoth... not to mention all the free level 2 spells before you even get close to getting Espers); Shadow's Throw (99 Shirukens costs only 3000 GP) and Interceptor; Terra and Celes' Magic + Earrings; Mog's Dances... all these things completely own the WoB enemies. Locke's really got nothing in WoB over these characters, and in WoR, it's not until you get the Offering that he'll start to be more useful.

    Access to heavy armor is kind of a moot point too when 7 people out of 14 can use the Genji Armor (half the cast); and 6 people out of 14 can use the Force Armor (almost half the cast). And of the people who can't use these armors, their selection isn't in any way a crappier selection. Mog and Gau (and Umaro, but he's worthless) can equip with Snow Mufflers. Relm gets Tao Robe (plus Magus Rod, plus CatHood) to equal Force Armor's +30% Magic Block. Again, saying that Locke can use Illumina, or wear Force Armor, or wear the Force Shield isn't really speaking much about him, but more about how powerful those equipment pieces are. And like I said before, Terra, Celes, and Edgar can all equip them, and have other things going for them above what Locke has.

    As for being effective in the back row. In the entire WoB, Edgar, Shadow, Gau, Terra, Celes, Sabin, Setzer, and Mog can all function to their fullest in the back row. Edgar with Tools; Shadow with Throw; Gau with Rages; Terra and Celes with Magic; Sabin with Blitz; Setzer with Slots; Mog with Dance. In the WoR; it's not much different. Pretty much anyone is still very viable and functional in the rear:

    Terra, Celes, Relm, and Strago can should still use Magic in the back row
    Edgar should still use Tools to use in the back row
    Gau should still use his Rages in the back row
    Shadow should still use Throw in the back row
    Mog can now Dragoon Boots/Dragoon Horn jump safely from the back row
    Setzer can Fixed Dice/Offering from the back row
    Sabin should still use Blitz from the back row
    Gogo should be Mimicing others from the back row

    So that leaves Locke, Cyan, and Umaro. Out of these, Umaro is pretty much crap, and only Cyan should ever really stay in the front do to his SwdTechs being effected by row damage.

    All in all; I'll admit that if you raise Locke to level 99, he has the best potential for overkill (Atma Weapon, Valiant Knife, Offering, Genji Glove). But I have to reiterate again that, tiering characters at that point seems kinda pointless.
  • Aoishi2ALAoishi2AL Joined: Posts: 280
    Strike wrote:
    Locke's often misplaced at the top only because people either:
    1. overrate his speed stat, thinking that high speed = more attacks in battle
    2. people overlevel him to the point where the game doesn't matter anymore and show that Locke can provide the most overkill
    3. people think that equipping the Illumina is the only factor for determining top tier

    Or some combination of the three above. So basically, your tier list is this:

    Top tier: Level 99 characters who can do the most overkill
    Middle tier: Vanish/Doom; other Level 99 characters
    Bottom: nothing

    Ain't really much of a tier list. But hey, if you like to tier the game when your characters are all basically the same, and the only difference is based on their equips, go right ahead. It's just that kind of tier list ultimately doesn't give any information about each individual character, and therefore is kinda worthless.

    You can get to the WoR without leveling up past level 16 in some cases. Compare Locke to all the other characters on level 16, give him Illumina and give other characters their best weapons. The Weapons a character can equip makes a considerable amount of difference, even if they were all on level one, the weapon gives somebody an unfair advantage that the other characters don't have. The same thing could be said about Ultima, it doesn't do 9999 damage if the caster is at level 20 and by the time Terra would get it she would be overleveled as well (around level 80), which is a double standard. But if you compare the damage that a level 10 Sabin would do with Ultima then compared with a level 10 Relm then of course the proper deduction would be that Relm is the better character.
    It's true that most characters can deal 9999 damage at level 99, but even if you don't level them up, just being able to use Illumina makes one character better than the rest. An example of this would be seen in Foucalt's description of mechanistical power which is somewhat like this:

    A Modern Artist (the use of firearms) vs. Martial Artist

    The weapon that a person uses can give them a substantial increase of power, now a person with a gun can obviously kill a person armed with his fists or any non-projecticle weapon. Compare the mechanistical power to Illumina and there you have it. And in MvC2 terms it would be like comparing:

    Cable vs. Ryu

    It is the same dilemma all over again. Cable has a big laser beam that is quicker than Ryu's. Cable has a gun and range, while Ryu just has his fists, considering the fact that Cable can also use Ahvb which makes him 5x better than Ryu.

    The Point is without the best relics in the game, Locke is still better than rest of the characters. His overall stats are better than the rest of them, the weapons and armor he can equip is better, better speed (considering if the rest of the characters do or don't use the Genji or Economizer combos), and in general better stats. Even though he isn't nearly as good as the rest of the characters in WoB, in the WoR all the equipment he gets makes him shine.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    You can get to the WoR with characters at Level 6. I have. I don't see what your point is about level 16 characters. All Locke has in a low-level game is that he is one of the characters who can equip with 128% Magic Block. Damage-wise, at that low level, he isn't causing much, at least compared to the other 128% Magic Block characters (Terra, Celes, Edgar, Relm).

    You talk about double-standards, but I haven't really applied any, since I have neither tiered the game at extreme max-levels; at extreme low-levels; nor on a natural magic game. I don't quite fully understand your comparsion because you've seem to have done all three. I'm assuming you're judging a high level Locke to:
    1. A level 20 Terra casting Ultima not hitting 9999 (actually, a Morphed level 20 Terra properly equipped WILL hit 9999)
    2. A natural magic game Terra getting Ultima at level 80

    You're analogies don't exactly make sense because I don't equate the Illumina to being a machine gun, while everything else in the game are empty fists. I further don't equate Locke to being Cable, making everyone else a scrub character like Ryu (or 5 times worse).

    So what standard exactly are you applying to the game when you tier? I've stated mine; just a regular playthrough of the game, learning magic through Espers, not ever taking time out to gain levels, not abusing Vanish/Doom. I also take into account the WoB, not just how a character can operate in the final portions of the game, since that would be ignoring more than half of the game itself. I'd figure that wouldd be the most fair and sensible way of tier the game because:
    1. Most people don't play the game with restrictions (low-level; natural magic, so a tier based on them would be rather narrow viewed)
    2. Tiering the game when everyone is at max level and max-Esper altered stats is pretty pointless because everyone at that point is just overkilling enemies

    I figure a good endgame level playing the game that way would probably be around level 40s or so.

    As such, let's just compare everyone at Level 40. That way, none of them are too low-leveled; none of them are obscenely overleveled where the game doesn't matter anymore. Would you agree this is a fair level to compare everyone to?

    What does a level 40 Locke have that trumps him over everyone else?

    The Illumina? Okay, it's the best weapon in the game. Locke has good vigor, so he should be fighting with it. And it gives him stat boosts, ignores defense, and allows him to attack in the back row. So how much damage exactly will a Level 40 Locke do with Illumina equipped?

    Locke's Equipment:
    Illumina (+7 Vigor, Speed, Staminia, Magic Power; 50% MBlock)
    Aegis Shield (40% MBlock)
    Bard's Hat (10% MBlock)
    Force Armor (30% MBlock)
    Relics: Hero Ring; Offering

    Locke's Stats:
    Vigor: 37 (44)
    Speed: 40 (47)
    Stamina: 31 (38)
    Magic Power: 28 (35)
    Battle Power: 14 (255; maxed due to Illumina)
    MBlock: 2% (132%)

    With this setup, Locke has over 128% MBlock, making him virtually untouchable by anything other than unblockable attacks. I'm assuming that you're stressing the importance of 128% MBlock because you're touting the Force Armor, which is basically only good because of the MBlock it gives. For this reason, I did not set Locke up with the Genji Glove (not that a level 40 Locke even with Genji Glove/Offering combined can do anything even close to the damage a Level 40 Setzer can with Offering/Fixed Dice alone).

    Vigor*2 = 88
    Battle Power = 255
    Attack = 88 + 255 = 343
    Offering Penalty = (-1/2 Damage)
    Hero Ring Bonus = (+5/4 Damage)
    Illumina Critical hit multiplier = null (because of Offering)

    Damage = Battle Power + [(Level * Level * Attack) / 256] * (3/2)

    Raw Damage = 255 + [(40 * 40 * 343) / 256] * (3/2) = 3598
    Damage (Offering Penalty; Hero Ring Bonus) 3598 * (1/2) * (5/4) = 2249

    A Level 40 Locke with Offering with that setup above will hit for around 2249 x4 = 8996 total damage.

    Now let's compare him to another Illumina holder, a Level 40 Celes, who most here considered the least useful of the so-called "Big 4":

    Celes' Equipment:
    Illumina (+7 Vigor, Speed, Staminia, Magic Power; 50% MBlock; 255 Battle Power)
    Force Shield (+50% MBlock)
    Mystery Veil (+1 Speed; +3 Magic Power; +10 MBlock)
    Minerva (+1 Vigor; +2 Speed; +1 Stamina; +4 Magic Power; 10% MBlock; +25% Max MP)
    Relics: Gem Box; Hero Ring

    Celes' Stats:
    Vigor: 34 (42)
    Speed: 34 (44)
    Stamina: 31 (39)
    Magic Power: 36 (50)
    Battle Power: 16 (255; maxed due to Illumina)
    MBlock: 9% (129%)

    With this setup, Celes also has over 128% MBlock like Locke, meaning she's basically untouchable. The key differences are, she gets a +25% max MP boost thanks to Minerva, and her Magic Power is boosted way high thanks to the rest of her equips.

    Ultima Spell Power: 150
    Hero Ring Bonus: (+5/4 Damage)

    Damage = Spell Power * 4 + [(Level * Magic Power * Spell Power) / 32)]

    Raw Damage = 150 * 4 + [(40 * 50 * 150) / 32] = 9975
    Hero Ring Bonus = 9975 * (5/4) = 12469 = 9999

    A Level 40 Celes with Gem Box equipped will be hitting for 9999 x2 damage casting Ultima twice. If you wanted to get really cheap; replace the Hero Ring with the Economizer, and she'll still hit for around 9975 x2 for only 2 MP.

    Even physically attacking with the Illumina; Celes won't be far off of Locke's damage.

    Vigor*2 = 84
    Battle Power = 255
    Attack = 84 + 255 = 339
    Hero Ring Bonus = (+5/4 Damage)
    Illumina Critical Hit multiplier = 2

    Damage = Battle Power + [(Level * Level * Attack) / 256] * (3/2)

    Raw Damage = 255 + [(40 * 40 * 339) / 256] * (3/2) = 3433

    Hero Ring Bonus = 3433 * (5/4) = 4291

    Critical Hit multiplier = 4291 * 2 = 8582

    So a Level 40 Celes hits for around 400 points less than a Level 40 Locke with thier opitimal setups; only Celes has a much more damage magic power attack in Ultima x2 that Locke doesn't; plus has better MP thanks to Minerva's +25% Max MP.

    If you want, I can compare a level 40 Relm:

    Relm's Equipment:
    Magus Rod (Magic Power +7; 30% MBlock)
    Force Shield (+50% MBlock)
    Cat Hood (Magic Power +4; 10% MBlock)
    Tao Robe (10% MBlock)
    Relics: Gem Box; White Cape

    Relm's Stats:
    Vigor: 26
    Speed: 34
    Stamina: 22
    Magic Power: 44 (55)
    MBlock: 9% (119%)

    Relm doesn't quite reach 128% MBlock with this setup (she could if you replace the Gem Box with another White Cape); but this setup is clearly more advantageous to her damage dealing and 119% MBlock will be blocking nearly anything that comes her way anyway.

    Ultima Spell Power: 150

    Damage = Spell Power * 4 + [(Level * Magic Power * Spell Power) / 32)]

    Raw Damage = 150 * 4 + [(40 * 55 * 150) / 32] = 10913 = 9999

    A Level 40 Relm with Gem Box equipped casting Ultima twice will hit for 9999 x2 damage. If you want to sacrifice 10% MBlock safety, you could replace the White Cape with an Econimizer and she would be able to do the combo for 2 MP.

    The facts are simple: Locke is only "top tier" if you over level everyone to level 99; and even then, "top tier" just means that he provides the most overkill at 9999 x8. His equipment is nothing that special. Out of his armors, 7/14 people can equip his Genji Armor; 6/14 people can equip with his Force Armor; and the rest who couldn't use either have their own respectable armor selections. Locke can use the Illumina, but the other 3 who can also equip it, do a much better job in other areas, and didn't lag behind in the WoB like Locke did. And finally, his speed is extremely overrated due to how the ATB system actually functions; meaning at best, Locke will get to strike first (only practical purpose this would have is in a Brachosaur fight or if you wanted to run away), but he will not be getting extra turns because of his "great speed."

    Locke is not trash, but he's not top tier either. Unless you like to power level and break the game, there are definitely other more viable and useful characters than him.
  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    You should look at characters when they are fully powered up. Why? Because it shows what they can potentially do. That's what it's all about. A characters potential.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    It's situational how you should look at characters for each game. In a game like FF6, if you tier them when they are all level 99 god-characters, all you're tiering is who provides the most overkill. At that point, a tier like that wouldn't give any practical analysis on the character himself/herself.

    But no one's stopping you from doing it that way if you wanted to. I just think it's rather pointless to determine who can do 9999 x8 versus who can do 9999 x4; or decide who has the best defense when all attacks are being blocked or do 1 damage.
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    my $0.02:

    if you are gonna tier it by usefulness throughout the game, then edgar comes out on top with gau not far behind. sabin should be up there since hes superior than most characters throughout the game. seriously, whats keeping sabin down besides the fact he cant equip some of the best equipments. but by the time you got everyones best equips, you are on your way of being godlike. terra and celes are like clones but they have above average stats and has good equips.

    mog is nothing really spectacular in the first half of the game but shines in the 2nd half due to moogle charm. relm is good from the start since her magic and speed is extremely high. locke sucks for majority of the game (shitty magic, shitty attack power) but since he can steal another pair of genji gloves, he still have some use. setzer is semi-useful. he doesnt really shine until you get his fixed dice and his slots are decent despite the fact that sometimes its rigged and can cost you your game.

    shadow isnt too useful since hes on and off your team and you wont get him till the very end. same with gogo but even worse since s/he wont have any esper bonuses (even if you arent trying to make your characters like demi-gods, the bonuses does add up over time).

    so imo

    top: edgar, gau, sabin, terra, celes
    2nd: relm, mog
    3rd: setzer, shadow, locke,
    bottom: cyan, gogo, strago, umaru
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • shadowcharlieshadowcharlie ★ஜ۩dip۞set۩ஜ★ Joined: Posts: 9,169 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    tier espers man =D
    bust my gun at the sun just to sit in the shade~
    ἐξίσταται γὰρ πάντ' ἀπ' ἀλλήλων δίχα
  • Mr.SNKMr.SNK . . . . -B Joined: Posts: 1,809 mod
    Shining in the Darkness
    Top tier: Forbidden box and making DarkSoul Dance.
    Mid tier: Blaze 4,Black bone and The Orb of truth
    Low Tier: Milo... the guy was just a pussy.


    Shining Force 3 sen1
    Top Tier: Dentaris (Prepare to Die)Nuff said best crits in the game.
    Mid Tier: Symbios he was too strong
    Low Tier: The Ending

    FoTNS
    Top Tier: Roah had a really nice style for being a bad guy, Ken-Fucking-Shiro this guy would use a move just for the fuck of it. (yeah we cant forget SHHHHAAWAAAAAA you know him Rei) :D
    Mid Tier: Shin this guy got the most shitty end of the stick in the story.
    Low Tier: Lieing little Bitch Jagi god damn cock sucker.

    Wu-Tang Shaolin Style
    Top Tier: ODB nuff said...RZA and Method man
    Mid Tier: Ghost Face Killah
    Low Tier:Masta Killah

    Kemco Puzzle point n click games.
    Top Tier: Deja Vu
    Mid Tier: Shadow Gate
    Low Tier: Uninvited
    A article on how to get better at fighting games, give it a read you might learn something.
    http://shoryuken.com/blogs/mr-snk/learning-how-get-better-fighting-games-1456/#comments
    Random E.Honda footage/My Youtube page.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSNK
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    Ouroborus wrote:
    my $0.02:

    if you are gonna tier it by usefulness throughout the game, then edgar comes out on top with gau not far behind. sabin should be up there since hes superior than most characters throughout the game. seriously, whats keeping sabin down besides the fact he cant equip some of the best equipments. but by the time you got everyones best equips, you are on your way of being godlike. terra and celes are like clones but they have above average stats and has good equips.

    mog is nothing really spectacular in the first half of the game but shines in the 2nd half due to moogle charm. relm is good from the start since her magic and speed is extremely high. locke sucks for majority of the game (shitty magic, shitty attack power) but since he can steal another pair of genji gloves, he still have some use. setzer is semi-useful. he doesnt really shine until you get his fixed dice and his slots are decent despite the fact that sometimes its rigged and can cost you your game.

    shadow isnt too useful since hes on and off your team and you wont get him till the very end. same with gogo but even worse since s/he wont have any esper bonuses (even if you arent trying to make your characters like demi-gods, the bonuses does add up over time).

    so imo

    top: edgar, gau, sabin, terra, celes
    2nd: relm, mog
    3rd: setzer, shadow, locke,
    bottom: cyan, gogo, strago, umaru

    If you're going to tier by usefulness, you need to bump Locke up again, considering you need him to get: best sword (unless you consider Atma to be superior to Illumina), best shield and best spell (except Terra who gets Ultima naturally).
  • Aoishi2ALAoishi2AL Joined: Posts: 280
    Strike wrote:
    You can get to the WoR with characters at Level 6. I have. I don't see what your point is about level 16 characters. All Locke has in a low-level game is that he is one of the characters who can equip with 128% Magic Block. Damage-wise, at that low level, he isn't causing much, at least compared to the other 128% Magic Block characters (Terra, Celes, Edgar, Relm).

    You talk about double-standards, but I haven't really applied any, since I have neither tiered the game at extreme max-levels; at extreme low-levels; nor on a natural magic game. I don't quite fully understand your comparsion because you've seem to have done all three. I'm assuming you're judging a high level Locke to:
    1. A level 20 Terra casting Ultima not hitting 9999 (actually, a Morphed level 20 Terra properly equipped WILL hit 9999)
    2. A natural magic game Terra getting Ultima at level 80

    You're analogies don't exactly make sense because I don't equate the Illumina to being a machine gun, while everything else in the game are empty fists. I further don't equate Locke to being Cable, making everyone else a scrub character like Ryu (or 5 times worse).

    So what standard exactly are you applying to the game when you tier? I've stated mine; just a regular playthrough of the game, learning magic through Espers, not ever taking time out to gain levels, not abusing Vanish/Doom. I also take into account the WoB, not just how a character can operate in the final portions of the game, since that would be ignoring more than half of the game itself. I'd figure that wouldd be the most fair and sensible way of tier the game because:
    1. Most people don't play the game with restrictions (low-level; natural magic, so a tier based on them would be rather narrow viewed)
    2. Tiering the game when everyone is at max level and max-Esper altered stats is pretty pointless because everyone at that point is just overkilling enemies

    The facts are simple: Locke is only "top tier" if you over level everyone to level 99; and even then, "top tier" just means that he provides the most overkill at 9999 x8. His equipment is nothing that special. Out of his armors, 7/14 people can equip his Genji Armor; 6/14 people can equip with his Force Armor; and the rest who couldn't use either have their own respectable armor selections. Locke can use the Illumina, but the other 3 who can also equip it, do a much better job in other areas, and didn't lag behind in the WoB like Locke did. And finally, his speed is extremely overrated due to how the ATB system actually functions; meaning at best, Locke will get to strike first (only practical purpose this would have is in a Brachosaur fight or if you wanted to run away), but he will not be getting extra turns because of his "great speed."

    Locke is not trash, but he's not top tier either. Unless you like to power level and break the game, there are definitely other more viable and useful characters than him.

    It's true that Ultima is a good spell but that doesn't mean that it's better than an Atma + Illumina combo. There is no way that

    9999x2 > 9999x4 or 9999x8

    Celes is a good character I haven't that she sucks, or Terra for that matter but Locke is still a member of the top tier, or the better characters. He's better than Relm or Anyone else below him on that list.

    Technically everyone can get Ultima. Ok, but so can Locke, yes Relm has more magic attack than Locke, but so what. Equipping Illumina makes a character that much better. And if you still don't think that Locke is all that great:

    He gets the best items in the game, not only for himself but for other characters. You need Locke to get Ultima.

    Locke can steal Megalixirs and other good items for creatures.

    Even if you have 99 Megalixirs that's overkill alright.

    It's true that other characters can 128% Mblock, but that doesn't change the fact that Locke is better.

    Locke with Atma or Illumina and Offering. Compared to Relm with Gembox and Economizer or what not. Locke is still the better character.

    It's good to have high Mblock, but if you have that high of an Mblock don't you think it's overkill? Basically it comes down to this:

    Locke
    Celes
    Terra
    Edgar
    Shadow
    Gau

    mostly all can do the Genji Combo. Shadow is included because he has interceptor, throw ignores defenses, he already has high magic power, and high Mblock.

    Even at level 40, if you raise the Vigor on a character he or she will still do considerable amounts of damage with the Offering or Genji combo. Simply by Equipping Bismarck when you get him gives a Vigor +2 bonus in the WoB. Meaning that the characters can still achieve damage levels equal to or more than Ultima. The thing is that they won't have to waste to relic spots which are always needs for the Gembox and Economizer combo.

    Economizer by itself reduces everything to one Mp. While Gembox casts two spells at once. Offering takes up 1 relic slot permitting a character to do whatever the fuck they want.

    Dude, just let it go. Locke is top tier. Best items. Good speed in the beggining which let's him attack quick. But doesn't help in the end to the long attacks.

    And if you didn't read my post, I validated the pros and cons of speed. So read my goddamn post this time. I'm not gonna reply to FF6 tiers anymore after this, it's like teaching a Christian about Zoroastrianism, or Asclepius, Osiris and comparing them to Jesus.
  • caliagent#3caliagent#3 Caliagent Bobblehead Joined: Posts: 4,187 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Double Dragon II:
    Top Tier: Knee attak
    High Mid: Uppercut, hurricane kick
    Mid: Back kick
    Low: punches, jump kick

    River City Ransom:
    God Tier: Chain (the only weapon you should really use)
    Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.
    Footsies guide: www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbpXplP_WFE
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    All man I can't believe I haven't seen this thread sooner but I guess that serves me right for not looking at the Other Games board at a while. Before the forum crash there was a similar thread to this on the FG board with wide variety of games being tiered, it very interesting to srk peeps breaking down/sharing knowledge of non-fighting games.
    Streets of Rage 3
    Roo
    Dr. Zen | Axel | Skate
    Blaze

    This seems like a joke but if not I gotta know the reasons behind that list, actually mostly why would Roo be above Skate.

    IMO..(I haven't played SOR3 in ages though..)
    God tier: Super Axel/Super Skate
    Top tier: Shiva/Blaze/Skate
    Rest/don't matter enough to divide further: Axel/Zan/Roo

    - Normal Axel was already a decent character but the crazy new special of the Super version owns the game by itself. Super Skate is the same way, he had one of the game's better Blitz attacks that you repeatedly spam on crowds of people even on U.S. Hard, giving him an overpowered normal combo is too much.

    - Shiva couldn't pick up weapons IIRC but had a powerful infinite. Blaze, like Skate, had one of the game's better Blitz attacks. Beside drop kicks, Blitz attacks own this game.

    - Axel/Zan/Roo isn't really bad (well maybe Roo), I can still beat the game easily with them but I would just put a little bit more effort than special spamming with Super Axel or Blitz spamming with Blaze or (Super)Skate.

    About RE4, I don't think levels matter. The character that can easily handle any level and break high 6 digits is the overall better character IMO. For that I think Wesker and Krauser are top, Ada is middle is middle and HUNK/Leon struggles for whatever is left.

    Don't know what suggestions to list that hasn't be listed already so I'll just throw some random ninja action games of this gen.

    Shinobi
    Top: Joe/Hotsuma
    Bottom: Moritsune

    - Joe can rip the game away old school style just by shuriken spamming and while his sword doesn't have as much power of Hotsuma or Moritsune you don't have to worry about health drain. Hotsuma doesn't hit hard as Moritsune but his power is enough, especially with the Charge Attack.

    - Moritsune is the strongest character in the game but his health drain is much worse on the trade off. On Super Mode, if a Tate doesn't go your way perfectly you'll be hurting looking for health. This is usually the case when fighting Super mode Hiruko. The health drain/power advantage is much more balance with Hotsuma.

    Nightshade
    Top: Hotsuma
    Middle: Joe
    Bottom: Hisui then Hibana below her.

    - Hotsuma's sword bypasses the "have to kick enemies armor off to damage them" rule so that's makes levels MUCH easier to go through and his sword gets crazy power boosts through Tates. Combined with the Charge Attack he makes short work of bosses. He's the only character who can beat the last boss in about 25 seconds. The health drain isn't even a problem with all the ownage he serves up.

    - Joe can still spam shurikens, which now have tracking abilities in this game, and his shuriken burst breaks armor. His only downfall is that he gets served up bad by Stage 12 boss.

    - The girls don't suck but since Hotsuma and Joe can bypass the annoying kicking armor off enemies rule they don't have to worry about unnesscary counter-attacks when trying to air Tate. Their Shadow Attack makes it easier to Tate bosses than the guys but that's about it and not enough to put them over IMO. Also Hisui is better than Hibana simply because she is the exact same as her except Hisui runs faster and has more range on her attacks.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    9999x2 > 9999x4 or 9999x8

    I think you meant: 9999 x2 < 9999 x4 < 9999 x8.

    Duh?

    The whole point I was trying to make is: when you're tiering all the characters at the point where each one has become a god-character; what's the point? Have you ever thought about it that way? Is a tier about what character can provide the most overkill really that useful when the game has become a complete joke? I get what everyone is saying about potential. Maybe you guys just take the fighting game tier ideology that since fighting game characters are tiered at a theorhetical "full potential," RPG characters should be as well. I don't think it quite translates that easily. Apparently you guys do.
    Celes is a good character I haven't that she sucks, or Terra for that matter but Locke is still a member of the top tier, or the better characters. He's better than Relm or Anyone else below him on that list.

    All you keep saying is: Locke is a member of the top tier, with absolutely nothing to back it up other than your resolve. At least I've shown how Locke is not the god character you guys keep proclaiming him to be with actual numbers, damage forumulas, and stats. But I guess it's not enough for you.
    Technically everyone can get Ultima. Ok, but so can Locke, yes Relm has more magic attack than Locke, but so what. Equipping Illumina makes a character that much better. And if you still don't think that Locke is all that great:

    The "so what" is that Relm is causing much more damage with Ultima than Locke ever will with anything else if you played the game WITHOUT over-leveling to the point where nothing matters. Equipping the Illumina when you're not a god-character doesn't automatically make you good. Perhaps you're too spoiled by immediately powering your characters to ridiculous heights that you've forgotten what it's like to actually play the game without first turning every battle into a joke.
    He gets the best items in the game, not only for himself but for other characters. You need Locke to get Ultima.

    If you want to take into consideration that Locke is a "requirement" in order to get the best equipment in the game, you can. I'd rather tier a character based on their ability in battle, rather than tier them based on what they can provide outside of battle. For instance, I didn't take into consideration Mog's Moogle Charm. To me, character tier lists are reflective of battle performance.
    Locke can steal Megalixirs and other good items for creatures.

    When do you ever need Mega Elixers when Cure 3 does the job just fine? So Locke can steal a recovery item that is rarely (if ever) needed. Not that great of a point. And what exactly are these "other good items" that you spoke of? The only noteworthy thing I can think of that Locke can steal in the WoB are Gaia Gears and Genji Gloves. Genji Gloves being a rare steal from a rare enemy on the Floating Continent (when the WoB is practically over); and Genji Gloves being only really useful for Locke which you should've already have one already. In the WoR, the only noteworthy thing Locke can steal are Economizers, which he himself can't make as good a use for compared to the other dedicated magic users with much better Magic Power stats.
    Even if you have 99 Megalixirs that's overkill alright.

    One Megalixer is overkill. 99 is just silly. So if you admit to them being overkill, why bring it up as a valid point?
    "It's true that other characters can 128% Mblock, but that doesn't change the fact that Locke is better."

    WTF? That doesn't make any sense. It's basically, you just repeating that Locke is better because you said so. If other characters can reach 128% MBlock, which itself is the whole point of Locke's so-called "excellent equipment," then that means that Locke's equipment isn't all that special in the first place.
    Locke with Atma or Illumina and Offering. Compared to Relm with Gembox and Economizer or what not. Locke is still the better character.

    Atma Weapon + Illumina combo is only better than Ultima when you've whored EXP and raised your characters levels to the point where the game and the battles that take place have become nothing more than a nuisance. Besides, Atma Weapon + Illumina isn't even that great of a combination in general. In order for Atma Weapon to be obscenely powerful, you'd again have to be at an higher level than necessary. If you're at level 99, most any weapon is already hitting for 9999 damage. Genji Gloved, Atma + Illumina is still only going to hit for 9999 x2. Illumina itself is actually a horrible weapon to pair up with the Offering, because it loses its MP Critical Hit multiplier. Either way, the point is that in order for Atma Weapon + Illumina to be better than Ultima, you'd have to have gotten to a point where the game doesn't matter anymore. If you wish to tier a joke game at a point when pretty much all the characters are clones of one another, then you can. It's just to me, a tier like that is pointless. How one character can crush all enemies with 9999 x8, when another character can easily crush the same enemies with 9999 x4; there really isn't any practical difference between the two.
    It's good to have high Mblock, but if you have that high of an Mblock don't you think it's overkill?

    128% MBlock ensures you are able to block every single blockable attack that is thrown your way. And if you took time to read my setups, I did not overkill MBlock, as I made sure with the equipment that it reached the 128% with the fewest points being left over (as in Celes' 129% case). No, I don't think high MBlock is overkill; in fact it's the opposite. High MBlock will likely save your life more than being able to do 79992 damage overkill on a 5000 HP enemy.

    If you think high MBlock is overkill, and thus not an important stat, then that just makes Locke that much worse, as one of the few things I give him credit for is his ability to reach the 128% MBlock mark while other characters can't. If you're satisfied with just even 100% MBlock; then other characters like Setzer, Shadow, and Mog truly start dominating Locke. Again, the only way Locke "beats these guys" is at god-level; a point where tiering the game becomes a joke itself.
    Basically it comes down to this:

    Locke
    Celes
    Terra
    Edgar
    Shadow
    Gau

    mostly all can do the Genji Combo. Shadow is included because he has interceptor, throw ignores defenses, he already has high magic power, and high Mblock.

    Genji combo is not good if you're not a godcharacter. And ALL god-characters (which seems to be your standard) can Genji combo for 9999 x2 anyway, so what's your point?
    Even at level 40, if you raise the Vigor on a character he or she will still do considerable amounts of damage with the Offering or Genji combo. Simply by Equipping Bismarck when you get him gives a Vigor +2 bonus in the WoB. Meaning that the characters can still achieve damage levels equal to or more than Ultima. The thing is that they won't have to waste to relic spots which are always needs for the Gembox and Economizer combo.

    Which is why it's kind of stupid to consider Esper bonuses because you can alter the stats of any characters to be practically anything you want. Basically making clones of each other stat-wise; which is precisely the reason why I didn't take Esper stat altering into consideration.

    Hell, why don't we include the Merit Award into dicussion? With it, anyone can equip the Illumina. Raise a level 6 Relm with 30 levels of Odin, 30 more levels of Bismarck, give her the Merit Award and Illumina, and guess what? You have another character with obscene speed, can hit for 9999 damage, and can use the Illumina? Why do you consider taking Esper stat bonuses into consideration, which changes characters to basically anything you want; but neglect Merit Award setups? You're applying a double-standard.
    Dude, just let it go. Locke is top tier. Best items. Good speed in the beggining which let's him attack quick. But doesn't help in the end to the long attacks.

    And if you didn't read my post, I validated the pros and cons of speed. So read my goddamn post this time. I'm not gonna reply to FF6 tiers anymore after this, it's like teaching a Christian about Zoroastrianism, or Asclepius, Osiris and comparing them to Jesus.

    Why don't you let it go? Locke is top tier because you said so? Locke's speed makes him attack first, but he's not doing anything noteworthy in that first strike that another character can't do better. The only "good item" he has over anyone else is the Illumina, which the other 3 wielders do a better job at it and excel in other areas, and didn't completey suck in the WoB. Why don't you read my "goddamn" posts about how speed actually works, rather than relying on your rather misguided notion that Locke's 37-44 speed stat is going to start making him have more turns than other characters, or make him start doing double damage, or any other completely false assumption. You didn't validate any of your posts other than mostly saying something along the lines of, 'Locke is top tier because I said so; just accept it.'

    Again, Locke is only "top tier" in the fact that if you overlevel everyone to 99, to a point where the game doesn't matter anymore, Locke provides the most overkill. His high speed does not mean he'll be attacking more times in battle. Out of his equipment, the only thing noteworthy he has are the Illumina and Valiant Knife; the former being better suited for one of the other 3 users, and the latter only good when Locke is either practically dead or walking god-character. I guess people just don't like being proven wrong.
  • Mr.SNKMr.SNK . . . . -B Joined: Posts: 1,809 mod
    Drop the fucking subject already, Gogo > all.

    Us normal folk play the game to have fun, besides who wants to level or cheat everyone to 99 anyhow 65 is high enough.

    Genji Glove is pointless in the WoR anyway, its like Sprint Shoes or Float ring.
    A article on how to get better at fighting games, give it a read you might learn something.
    http://shoryuken.com/blogs/mr-snk/learning-how-get-better-fighting-games-1456/#comments
    Random E.Honda footage/My Youtube page.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSNK
  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Strike wrote:
    I think you meant: 9999 x2 < 9999 x4 < 9999 x8.

    Duh?

    Read it again. The statement said this.
    It's true that Ultima is a good spell but that doesn't mean that it's better than an Atma + Illumina combo. There is no way that

    9999x2 > 9999x4 or 9999x8

    Duh?

    I believe characters should be ranked on their full potential. Level 99 is within the limits of the game. If Squaresoft didn't want players to attain that high of a level, they would have implemented a limit.

    I guess it depends on whether or not you want to set a limit for yourself. You could level yourself completely to level 99 and explore the full potentials and possibilities of each character that Squaresoft designed. Or you could limit yourself to under level 50 because of Strike's subjective viewpoint that anything higher is not fair for the CPU.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    box wrote:
    Read it again. The statement said this.



    Duh?

    I believe characters should be ranked on their full potential. Level 99 is within the limits of the game. If Squaresoft didn't want players to attain that high of a level, they would have implemented a limit.

    I guess it depends on whether or not you want to set a limit for yourself. You could level yourself completely to level 99 and explore the full potentials and possibilities of each character that Squaresoft designed. Or you could limit yourself to under level 50 because of Strike's subjective viewpoint that anything higher is not fair for the CPU.

    The point is the same in that you guys are trying to justify your tiers as who can provide the most overkill at a point where that much damage is completely unnecessary.

    And how is my viewpoint any more or less subjective than your insistance on comparing characters at level 99? Sure, you can level yourself completely to the point where nothing will stand in your way. It's like tiering which weapon: Nuclear Bomb; Tank; Machine Gun; or Bomber Jet is best for killing ants. You're characters are so far beyond powerful that tiering them at that point is a joke itself.

    I didn't mention anything about fairness to the CPU. I don't understand why you guys think the concept of tiering the game when there is still challege left in it and when all the characters haven't become clones of one another is such a foreign and strange concept.
  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Strike wrote:
    T
    I didn't mention anything about fairness to the CPU. I don't understand why you guys think the concept of tiering the game when there is still challenge left in it and when all the characters haven't become clones of one another is such a foreign and strange concept.

    Because by doing so, you are tiering the characters at a limit that you yourself are imposing on the characters. You aren't taking into account the full-potential of these characters. Who defines what limit should be placed on characters? You... or Squaresoft?
  • Higher-JinHigher-Jin MvC2 Moderator Joined: Posts: 1,953
    Can't you two just have two different tierings?

    One at level 99, and one at level 40.
    Either we all live in a decent world, or nobody does. - George Orwell
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Sure. Except I think the Locke-supporters have a misguided belief that he's still somehow superior even at lower levels.
  • js2756js2756 Joined: Posts: 169
    This will be my last argument for Locke vs Relm, but Relm is not all that more powerful a mage than Locke is. If you consider the following setups (optimized for MBlock):

    Relm:
    Magus Rod
    Tao Robe
    Cat Hood
    Force Shield
    Gem Box
    White Cape

    Relm will do 19998 damage at level 40 with Ultima (9999 x 2)

    Locke:
    Illumina
    Force Armor
    Circlet
    Force Shield
    Gem Box
    Hero Ring or Earrings

    Locke will do 19782 damage at level 40 with Ultima (9891 x 2)

    Locke will have the full 128% magic block, while Relm will be around 120, plus Locke still has his speed advantage. Factor in Locke's better skill (steal/capture) and versatility, and I can't see how Relm is better than he is.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    JA N wrote:
    Pokemon
    god: mewtwo
    top: Articuno Alakazzam
    High: Garados Charizard Jolteon
    everything else: Not Worth mentioning

    I can't believe I'm going to come out of lurking to post about old school Pokemon.

    Mewtwo is God yes, but after that, the only Pokemon I'd think of using out of the ones you listed is Gyarados (and even that is shaky, considering Thunderbolt is usually on many Pokemon). Aerodactyl, Snorlax, Dragonite (beware Ice Beam), Chansey, Starmie, and Slowbro are all better than those, off the top of my head.
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Mainly because prior to level 40; Relm is already capable of hitting the damage threashold of 9999 much earlier than Locke can.

    Optimized for damage:

    Magus Rod
    Force Shield
    Cat Hood
    Behemoth Suit
    Gem Box
    Earring

    Relm will do 19998 damage at level 26; a good 14 levels before you reach endgame (assuming a level 40 endgame level). Relm is thus capable of destroying more powerful enemies earlier on, at levels where your party is still capable of being wiped out.

    That Illumina/Force Armor/Force Shield combo is a good one; no doubt; but having to use all 3 on one character is a bit of a waste on all 3 items, which could've been spread a bit more throughout the party. Again, Locke's "speed advantage" isn't much of one when speed doesn't count for much in this game due to ATB. Locke will get his turn first, but unless he's at a high level, what is he doing that's so damaging or so crucial in that first turn that someone else couldn't do one turn later?
  • DaBossDaBoss Joined: Posts: 26
    Gen2000:
    I'm not sure if you've ever played Bare Knuckle 3, but if you have, where would Ash rank?
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