Tiers for non-fighting games?

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  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Anybody got MK Shaolin Monks tiers?
  • CrimsonDisasterCrimsonDisaster team anime Joined: Posts: 1,582
    Ragnarok Online? Unless a huge patch has happened, Hunters/Snipers are probably still top tier ;(
    I only play games with RCs.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    god, I remember RO. I quit cause lvling a spirit monk was BS.
  • xX_Deus_XxxX_Deus_Xx ItsCool2BeDismissive Joined: Posts: 2,579
    G.O.T wrote:
    Somebody give me a tier of ... Power Stone 2 ....

    ayame is god tier in power stone 2.

    get 3 stones.
    find a 4th stone and stand next to it.
    use super ninja stars super twice.
    pick up the stone you're standing next to.
    run around and pick up 2 more stones while everyones being juggled in the air.
    repeat.
    repeat.
    repeat.
    Have fun, and be safe with it.

    Just kidding. Fuck shit up.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Mega Man anyone?

    Mega Man 1 weapon tier

    God
    Thunder Beam glitched
    Top
    Thunder Beam
    Fire Storm
    Ice Slasher
    Mid
    Rolling Cutter
    Low
    Hyper Bomb
    Super Arm

    Mega Man 2 weapon tier
    God
    Metal Blade
    Top
    Quick Boomerang
    Atomic Fire
    Air Shooter
    Mid
    Crash Bomber
    Bubble Lead
    Low
    Leaf Shield

    Mega Man 4 weapon tier
    Top
    Dive Missle
    Pharoah Shot
    Mid
    Rain Flush
    Drill Bomb
    Ring Boomerang
    Dust Crusher
    Low
    Flash Stopper (debateable)
    Skull Shield

    Mega Man 7 weaon tier
    Top
    Thunder Bolt
    Noise Crush
    Wild Coil
    Mid
    Slash Claw
    Danger Wrap
    Junk Shield
    Scorch Wheel
    Low
    Freeze Cracker

    I'll have some stuff up on some mega man x weapons another time.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    xX_Deus_Xx wrote:
    ayame is god tier in power stone 2.

    get 3 stones.
    find a 4th stone and stand next to it.
    use super ninja stars super twice.
    throw ninja stars twice at your juggled opponent
    pick up the stone you're standing next to.
    run around and pick up 2 more stones while everyones being juggled in the air.
    repeat.
    repeat.
    repeat.

    Ayame is good. Falcon is good. Voldo is bottom, Chef, and umbrella girl are all bottom. Check the power stone 2 thread from a while back, someone listed tiers there.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389

    Mega Man 2 weapon tier
    God
    Metal Blade
    Top
    Quick Boomerang
    Atomic Fire
    Air Shooter
    Mid
    Crash Bomber
    Bubble Lead
    Low
    Leaf Shield


    I'll have some stuff up on some mega man x weapons another time.

    People always diss the Leaf Shield...without fully utilizing it.
    As long as you don't MOVE, the Leaf Shield lasts practically FOREVER. It's a godsend in the Wily Stages where you're on a moving platform and all kinds of enemies are trying to knock you off.
    It's also a godsend in Air Man's stage wherever there the egg-dropping birds are. The baby birds give power-ups, 1-Ups, and energy tanks like crazy. Baby birds always home in on Megaman. Megaman's Leaf Shield never goes away as long as he stands still. Leaf Shield runs through baby birds like a fat girl through cheesecake. You do the math.

    Bubble Lead is the only low in Megaman 2. Only good for Heatman and okay for enemies on the floor or in holes.
    Crash Bomber is mid.
    Everything else is top except Metal Blade which is God Tier.
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Bubble Lead is the only low in Megaman 2. Only good for Heatman and okay for enemies on the floor or in holes.
    Crash Bomber is mid.
    Everything else is top except Metal Blade which is God Tier.

    Bubble lead is also good for wily's last form too. And I think it's safe to say that no one can argue the god tierness of the metal blade. Also I think it's the best weapon in any megaman game 1-8.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ProfessorS wrote:
    Super Mario RPG

    Toadstool: You heard me. With the frying pan equipped, not only can she repair damage but she can really dish it out too. The Lazy Shell turns her into the ultimate tank.
    Geno: A very well rounded range of special attacks, plus high normal attack power and good speed. Too bad his defense is low.
    Bowser: Very high regular attack, plus high defense and HP. His specials sucks damagewise, but Terrorize is great for scaring your enemies(drops their attack and defense by 1/2!)
    Mario: Mario isn't necessarily bad, he just lacks variety though his jumps are really useful.
    Mallow: The game treats you like he should be your black mage. So why doesn't he have an Ultima? Some of his spells are useful but he doesn't have anything uber, thus he kinda sucks.

    hmm.... Mario is far too low. If you can do the 30x and 100x jumps, you must admit, he goes to god tier (+100 to all your stats? Yea.) Even dropping that, getting the lazy shell makes him do more base damage than bowser. Also, theres not really much reason to do high-powered specials in SMRPG, you can just sit on peach and have her heal while mario and bowser go basic attacks on everyone. Thats why I say

    Peach
    Mario(with 30 and/or 100x jump)
    Bowser
    Mario (w/o 30x jump)
    Geno
    Mallow

    Onto Strykers 1945 II
    Top Tier
    Mosquito

    High
    Hayate
    Focke-Wulf

    Mid
    Shindin
    Pancake

    Low-Crap
    Lightning

    The Mosquito can throw out Lvl-1 charge ups like crazy, and they do tons of damage. It charges fast enough that you can even do it durring the stages nearly continuously. It's bomb saves you instantly, and kills shots for a really long time, and also covers the whole screen.

    The Hayate covers the screen well, and is instantly saved by it's bombs. It lacks the raw power to kill bosses quickly, though.

    The Focke-Wulf is powerful as hell, and its charge-up blocks shots for a really long time, but it's firing type is so linear that the base stages get harder. Owns up on bosses, though.

    Shindin, I don't, just nothing really special here. It's bomb doesn't even save it right away

    Pancake's only saving grace is that it wastes up on the base stages. Good luck killing a boss with it ever. Oh, and it's bomb is horrible

    Lightning has nothing going for it. It's missiles track poorly, it's charge up doesn't do that much, it's bomb doesn't last that long and doesn't do much damage.
  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,306 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    replying to old post
    Trying to tier SvR 2006, seems impossible so far.

    The new stamina system really takes the sting out of guys like the Big Show who would normally dominated...and too many damn moves were taken out of the game so everyone has almost the same shitty generic moveset.

    Even with the stamina system, Andre still seems the best, but not broken.
    Of course, the stamina system can be turned off in options...but an actual tiering is still hard.
    Do you count stamina system on or off?
    Plus the CPU is back to reversing EVERY FUCKING THING like in HCTP again (one of the few major flaws in that games) and FUCKING CHEATS on button-mashing minigames and submissions....but then you can lower the CPU resistance on that too, at least (unlike HCTP).

    I agree, it's hard, even going through stats it's a bit complicated. I think the stamina system should be considered as well. The CPU definitely cheats in the "press any button rapidly" submissions. I haven't had problems with the "stop line in the field ones" so far.

    Even with stamina, I'd put Kurt on high or top. He still has most of his moves, and he can still go even on low or almost no stamina, from experience.

    By generic movesets, do you mean most everyone has a crossface and/or a leg lock of sorts (and other silly submissions)? I haven't noticed the other similarities.

    I've been playing HCTP again as of late. Is it really just Legend Undertaker Brock/Goldberg/HHH>>> everyone else?
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • Iczer oneIczer one chillin' at Buxi Bar Joined: Posts: 216
    [Suikoden 2]




    Killey (9.6), Sheena (9.4), Chaco (9.3), Riou (9.2), Sid (9.1)

    [A+]

    Hai Yo (9.0), Jowy (8.8), Rina (8.7)

    [A]

    Nanami (7.8}, Gantetsu (7.5), Lorelai (7.4), Viktor (7.2), Kahn (7.1)

    [B+]

    Ayda (7.0), Flik (6.9), Futch (6.9), Tsai (6.9), Kinnison (6.9), Tomo (6.7), Georg (6.5), Eilie (6.4), Nina (6.3), Tengaar (6.3), Sierra (6.2)



    Millie (6.0), Yoshino (5.9), Luc (5.7), Valeria (5.6), Freed (5.6), Meg (5.6), Pesmerga (5.5), Bob (5.4), Stallion (5.4), LC Chan (5.3), Hoi (5.3), Mazus (5.2), Wakaba (5.1), Hauser (5.1)

    [B-]

    Karen (5.0), Kasumi (5.0), Gijimu (4.9), Anita (4.9), Shilo (4.9), Clive (4.9), Sasuke (4.8}, Miklotov (4.8}, Humphrey (4.8}, Gengen (4.8}, Zamza (4.8}

    [C+]

    Gabocha (4.7), Rikimaru (4.7), Koyu (4.7), Camus (4.7), Hanna (4.6), Vincent (4.6), Tai Ho (4.5), Mondo (4.5)

    [C]

    Oulan (4.4), Badeaux (4.4), Lo Wen (4.3), Simone (4.3), Amada (4.3),
    Hix (4.0)

    [C-]

    Shiro (3.6), Feather (3.6), Tuta (3.4), Siegfried (3.4), Bolgan (3.3), Genshu (3.3), Shin (3.2), Viki (3.1)

    [D+]

    Mekumeku (2.7), Mikumiku (2.6), Makumaku (2.6), Mukumuku (2.6), Mokumoku (2.4), Gadget (2.2)

    [D]

    Rulodia (1.7), Aziboah (1.5), Chuchara (0.9)





    [Hard Edge / T.R.A.G.]

    Alex (Shotgun)

    [A] Rachel (Close Combat), Michelle (Falchion), Rachel (Tonfas)

    Alex (Pistol), Michelle (Knife)

    [C] Burns (Fists)


    Never got Burn's second weapon (gloves) so i cannot rank them.
    always coming back
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    HCTP is stupidly unbalanced with idiotic stats.

    All Super Heavyweights with a 9 or higher in Strength and Durability >> Triple H, Kurt Angle and Legion of Doom >>>>>>>>>>> Everyone else
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,306 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Ah, I think that'd also put Kevin Nash/Show/Kane on top then. Thanks.
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    xX_Deus_Xx wrote:
    ayame is god tier in power stone 2.

    get 3 stones.
    find a 4th stone and stand next to it.
    use super ninja stars super twice.
    pick up the stone you're standing next to.
    run around and pick up 2 more stones while everyones being juggled in the air.
    repeat.
    repeat.
    repeat.

    This doesn't work on anyone who actually knows how to play PS2, usually people who aren't familiar with Wall Escaping mentions this method is the reason why Ayame is god, it's not. Ayame is good, but not god, because of her aerial stomp always gurantees a stomp, she has a good aerial attack, ground speed and double jump but her shitty defense and crappy throw speed makes her hard to work if vs. one of better characters in the game controlled by someone who knew what they were doing.

    Accel, Julia, Jack, Wangtang, and Rouge are the best characters in the game. Ayame/Ryoma/Falcon/Gunrock/Pete/Galuda comes after them. Pride and Mel are automatic bottom tier because they lack invincible frames on their wall attacks and also has very shitty defense. In their defense they have some of the decent Power Fusions in the game but it doesn't matter if you can just lock them down in the corner and repeatedly beat up on them rarely letting them even touch a stone.
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Iczer one wrote:
    [Suikoden 2]




    Killey (9.6), Sheena (9.4), Chaco (9.3), Riou (9.2), Sid (9.1)

    [A+]

    Hai Yo (9.0), Jowy (8.8), Rina (8.7)

    [A]

    Nanami (7.8}, Gantetsu (7.5), Lorelai (7.4), Viktor (7.2), Kahn (7.1)

    [B+]

    Ayda (7.0), Flik (6.9), Futch (6.9), Tsai (6.9), Kinnison (6.9), Tomo (6.7), Georg (6.5), Eilie (6.4), Nina (6.3), Tengaar (6.3), Sierra (6.2)



    Millie (6.0), Yoshino (5.9), Luc (5.7), Valeria (5.6), Freed (5.6), Meg (5.6), Pesmerga (5.5), Bob (5.4), Stallion (5.4), LC Chan (5.3), Hoi (5.3), Mazus (5.2), Wakaba (5.1), Hauser (5.1)

    [B-]

    Karen (5.0), Kasumi (5.0), Gijimu (4.9), Anita (4.9), Shilo (4.9), Clive (4.9), Sasuke (4.8}, Miklotov (4.8}, Humphrey (4.8}, Gengen (4.8}, Zamza (4.8}

    [C+]

    Gabocha (4.7), Rikimaru (4.7), Koyu (4.7), Camus (4.7), Hanna (4.6), Vincent (4.6), Tai Ho (4.5), Mondo (4.5)

    [C]

    Oulan (4.4), Badeaux (4.4), Lo Wen (4.3), Simone (4.3), Amada (4.3),
    Hix (4.0)

    [C-]

    Shiro (3.6), Feather (3.6), Tuta (3.4), Siegfried (3.4), Bolgan (3.3), Genshu (3.3), Shin (3.2), Viki (3.1)

    [D+]

    Mekumeku (2.7), Mikumiku (2.6), Makumaku (2.6), Mukumuku (2.6), Mokumoku (2.4), Gadget (2.2)

    [D]

    Rulodia (1.7), Aziboah (1.5), Chuchara (0.9)

    What do the numbers mean? How are they calculated?
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • Iczer oneIczer one chillin' at Buxi Bar Joined: Posts: 216
    What do the numbers mean? How are they calculated?
    Suikoden has a fixed stat growth rate for all stats and all characters. The rate goes from 1 to 8 and determines how big the chance for the character is to get a stat raise of 0-5. So the stats are easy to tier, here's a chart: http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7755/suiko2ranking43si.gif

    The most important part for the ranking was of course how much damage a character can deal (i compared different possibilities how to deal damage with that specific character and which is the best way in the long run), taking important stats like tech, speed, luck and open rune/weapon slots into account (a fast and/or skilled character CAN outdamage a character that has one rune slot more).
    I also took a deep look into the rune affinities of the characters if they are better magic users than physical attackers (that's pretty rare in Suikoden 2 though, most characters are better fighters than mages). The defensive stats influenced the ranking too, although they are not THAT important in Suikoden 2.

    A rating of 10 would be a perfect character who is doing the most damage and has all S ratings for the defensive stats. Killey has a rating of 9.6, he is the most damaging character in the game with above average defense stats. Every other character's damage output was compared to what Killey can do, and ranked accordingly.
    always coming back
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I see.

    I suppose in Suiko 2 the most important thing is having 3 rune slots for the Double Beat trick.

    But the tricky thing in tiering RPG characters is that it isn't always just about dealing damage. Healing, support magic, and special abilities play a role too. Also, stats don't tell everything...oftentimes equipment is more important.

    Specifically in Suiko 2, I think range is a very important part of a fighter, and I don't see that really taken into account.
    Any M-ranged fighter, for example, with all "B" stats deserves to be ranked higher than a S-ranged fighter with all "B+" stats because the M-fighter is a lot more versatile, and seeing as the fighter wouldn't be forced to be put in the front row, that just adds more space for S-Fighters (of whom the vast majority of Suiko 2 fighters are).
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • Iczer oneIczer one chillin' at Buxi Bar Joined: Posts: 216
    But the tricky thing in tiering RPG characters is that it isn't always just about dealing damage. Healing, support magic, and special abilities play a role too.
    I would agree with you, but this is Suikoden 2. How important is healing and support magic when most bosses go down in 1-3 turns and random battles are over before the enemies can even attack ? I'm not even talking about the end of the game, after the first third of playtime your party will start to beast on everyone :wgrin: the situations where you'll need healing (or support magic) in a battle are so rare that wasting a slot for a rune of that sort is always a waste ... unless you are going to play a very weak party on purpose ;]
    Also, stats don't tell everything...oftentimes equipment is more important.
    That's true, but not for the defense, it's all about power boost or even speed/tech/luck boost. And everone can equip power rings. So this is only a factor when characters have a fixed equipment slot, and i gave characters a minus for that.
    Specifically in Suiko 2, I think range is a very important part of a fighter, and I don't see that really taken into account.
    Any M-ranged fighter, for example, with all "B" stats deserves to be ranked higher than a S-ranged fighter with all "B+" stats because the M-fighter is a lot more versatile, and seeing as the fighter wouldn't be forced to be put in the front row, that just adds more space for S-Fighters (of whom the vast majority of Suiko 2 fighters are).
    The attack range of the characters gets less and less important the higher you climb in the tiers ...
    http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/65/suiko2range5we.gif
    So in general, unless you are going to play a below average party, there will be no range issue :wink: My last final party had no S range characters at all, and they weren't even top tiers except for the hero (Riou, Eilie, Ayda, Lorelai, Futch, Kinnison).
    always coming back
  • DanaTorpDanaTorp Torpedo98 Joined: Posts: 588
    OG shmup tier

    1943 (arcade)

    god tier: Laser. Hot knife through butter. Amazing and rare. If only it lasted longer.

    top tier: 3-way. If you had fast fingers and stamina, you could control the entire screen for the entire game. It's all about the diagonal shot. One quarter and 3-way would take me all the way to the last battleship.

    high: Auto, super shell. High damage potential, and arguably better on large planes and ships than 3-way, but you give up a lot of maneuverability by only being able to shoot in a straight line. Easier on the finger, but not on the wrist. And by FAR better than 3-way in terms of sheer power when using the sidekick planes, but again, the lack of the angled shot means that you need to maneuver more than necessary. Too overbalanced in the power/maneuverability ratio.

    mid: standard gun. Good enough. The Mario of guns.

    low: shotgun. Just...wow. You've gotta really hate life to use this thing. Call it the Gadoken of 1943. Has the weird property of destroying enemy bullets, is the only gun that can be powered up, can do fair damage on large planes and ships if concentrated, but the super low rate of fire plus lack of range really hurts the overall effectiveness. A novelty gun, nothing more.
    The Game Grid Arcade on FB: SF4 AE arcade machine came to West Valley Utah! (lol)
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Yeah, healing in Suikoden 2 via magic is a moot point, especially since thanks to Hai Yo's restaurant healing items are very plentiful and often better than magical healing.

    But for that point I was speaking of RPGs in general...though it could be argued that healers in most RPGs aren't actually that useful.
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Have there been any Fire Emblem tiers set yet?

    I'm laying FE7 for GBA right now, and Hector seems to be godly...
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    whats the tiers on the RAnma 1/2 fighting games?

    shampoo is top in the snes american ver! :sweat:
  • roninwarrior24roninwarrior24 Custom Title Joined: Posts: 635
    Have there been any Fire Emblem tiers set yet?

    I'm laying FE7 for GBA right now, and Hector seems to be godly...

    I don't want to make a whole list, but Hector, Canas, and Athos are the best. Also, Luna is the best weapon in that game. Can kill the final bosses easily with it, and probably critical as well.

    For FE8, almost the entire roster is godly. The only characters that suck horribly are most of the prepromos, the hidden characters minus Lyon, Moulder, and Garcia.

    Ike owns everyone in FE9. Once he gets Ragnell, you can bench the rest of your party and still do well. From the looks of it, Sothe is bottom tier. Awesome growths, but can't promote, so sucky stats.
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    Thanks for that.

    Now I'm trying to get back in SD vs RAW 2006, but the game still seems impossible to tier so far.

    At least, I can still rank the importance for stats, based on DEFAULT setting (i.e. Stamina not turned off, the reversal window and attack strength bars not reduced, etc):

    1) Strength--Still the most important, as always
    2) Durability--Still the 2nd most important.
    3) Stamina--One of the few attempted "balancing" agents Yukes tried to put in the game to make an upside to using the cruiserweights over the big strong guys like Andre and Big Show...generally it works a little TOO much in my opinion. I don't have a problem with Andre and Show needing to rest a second between every couple of moves or so (it adds a good bit of realism albeit at the cost of fast-paced action) but when a even a cruiserweight and heavyweight with stamina around an "8" have to spend 10 seconds catching the breath after a handful of moves, then that's a problem. It seems they're pushing toward more a slower "sim" type of feel with wrestling games rather than the fast-paced, arcade style in the past.
    4) Charisma--Due to the change in fighting engine, which includes a "momentum" meter rather than a super-meterish SD move system...charisma has gone up in importance because momentum affects a lot more than just SD moves. It's practically impossible to score a pin without having higher momentum...and on higher difficulty levels it's even pretty much impossible to get a pin without a finisher.
    5) Speed--Even less relevant this year because this game seems to suffer from a much slower "sim" pace in general
    6) Hardcore--Pretty much a wild card stat. Obviously, this stats is way more important in some match types than in others. It's also way more important for heels, as faces are now punished with severe momentum loss for resorting to weapons. Also, weapons in general have been weakened significantly from past games (i.e. you can no longer abuse the hell out of them), not only do they break after 4 hits, but do less damage overall, and are swung much slower (even with a high Hardcore stat). Still, this stat can bevital, especially for smaller guys like Spike Dudley, who has abysmal strength but one of the highest Hardcore stats in game and can do a lot of damage with weapons.
    7) Submission--Submission moves in general are still as important as last year. Then why has the submission STAT gone down to near worthlessness? Because the stat seems to affect NOTHING at all, because the CPU MOTHERFUCKIN CHEATS IN SUBMISSION MASHING and almost anyone can mash out of a submission easily no matter what the stat difference.
    8)Technique--Worthless because on default settings the reversal window so huge it takes almost no effort or timing to reverse a move. Seriously...anytime you're on defense, any scrub can mash both reversal buttons and profit from it. It's at least 10x easier to reverse a SD move in this game than it is to parry Ryu's LP fireball from full screen in 3rd Strike. This is main reason why I think Yuke's dropped the ball on this year's version. If Yuke's REALLY wants the future SDs to be balanced sim wrestling style game, then the first thing they need to make sure two people reversing a string of like 10 consecutive moves (which happens to me all the time on higher difficulties) between each other SHOULDN'T happen. You should only be allowed a short window of ONE attempt of a button press to reverse, and then the opponent has ONE attempt to reverse your reversal, and then THAT'S IT.
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Tiers, huh? I remember the old thread, and I think we had the FFVI tier problem back then too (i.e. how do you rank FFVI?). You definitely need to specify what criteria you're using if it isn't obvious.

    For a game like FFVI, where you can make all characters into near-identical killing machines, very very easily, I think you should take a broad perspective. I like to rank the characters based on overall status if possible, though I tend to favour the end game mostly. I do this with FFVI and FFX definitely.

    ******************************

    ANyway, a few tiers of my own to add:

    Final Fantasy X-2 Dressphere (yeah I know it's been done; mine has more reasons):

    God tier:

    Gunner + Cat Nip + Highroad Winds Garment Grid (+ optional Haste Bracelet): Kills all but 4 enemies in the game one turn, before they can even do anything. Definitely broken.

    Top tier:

    Mascot: To be honest, this is theoretical since I never got this dressphere. Based on its abilities though, it certainly seems like it belongs here.

    Dark Knight: Best boss-beater dresssphere. Defense is sickening high, attack is really strong, Darkness is a mindless and virtually cost-free way to eliminate all enemies.

    Berserker: Best non-boss dressphere, especially once you get Counter Attack and Magic Counter. Really high HP, it's insanely fast, and can basically kill most things without you ever having to touch the controller thanks to its counter abilities. Only drawback is its poor defense/magic defense.

    Alchemist: Best support dressphere. Just learn mega-potion and you'll almost never have to heal with items or magic ever again. Best overall team is 2 Dark NIghts + Alchemist, with Dark Knights casting Darkness and Alchemist using Mega Potion every turn. You'll kill everything except for a few of the insanely strong enemies in Via Infinito. Alchemist + Dark KNight + Berserker, or Alchemist + two Berserkers is also stupidly good.

    Second Tier:

    Lady Luck: Surprising, I know, but I find this to be one of the better dresspheres. It has a number of useful attributes: First of all, it's fast. It's attack charge time is as low as the Berserkers, so it racks up hits quickly. You'll be able to attack twice as often as, say, a Warrior or a Samurai. Furthermore, this dressphere has a very high luck value, meaning you get critical hits out the ying yang. Thus, this dressphere not only attacks often, but racks up a LOT of damage over time with critical hits. Forget it's various reels abilities, as I find them all to be useless. The Dice abilities aren't bad though (if there was a way to fix them, Lady Luck + Cat Nip would be almost as abusive as Gunner + Cat Nip). Double EXP and Gillionaire are also really, really good abilities.

    Samurai: A strong attacking dressphere, with decent defense and HP. It's a bit slow though. Special abilities are pretty good, though some of them (instant kill ones) are really hit or miss.

    Gun Mage: There was a reason why I put GUn Mage here, but it's been a while since I played the game, so I forget. I think Gun Mage has higher attack and defense than Gunner, plus has the benefit of attacking instantly. The various enemy killer skills are useful early on, though not so later in the game. Forget all the "Blue BUllet" stuff as they're almost all crap.

    Theif: Theives are self-sufficient, being able to steal items, HP, MP, etc. all day long. They're also really fast, and their attack power isn't terrible thanks to the double hits.

    Mid Tier:

    White MAge: A pretty mandatory dressphere until you get Alchemist, after which there is no point in using White Mage any more. The fact that it becomes completely obsolete is why I put it here.

    Gunner: Without Cat Nip and Highroad Winds backing it up, this dressphere is merely okay. It has some decent damage-dealing special abilities, but nothing outstanding.

    Warrior: Sentinel can be an extremely useful ability in certain battles (like against Trema - let your warriors no sell his 19087123487138 attacks while your gunner removes 200,000 HP per turn). Otherwise, this dressphere is pretty average. The special abilities are pretty terrible.

    Black Mage: Magic can be reasonably powerful, but is just too damn slow unless you equip like 3 things to decrease the start up time. NOt to mention you need special equipment to use the stuff that really hurts, like Flare and Ultima. It's just not worth it IMO. And in the meantime, the Blackmage has really shitty HP and defense.

    Songstress: If status ailments worked like they did in FFX, this dressphere would be MUCH higher. As it is, most status ailments in FFX-2 have been reduced to a FFIX/pre-FFVII level of uselessness, so the fact that this dressphere can inflict status ailments with 100% success rate is pretty blah, as is the fact that everything it does only lasts for one turn at a time. Also, the fact that it can't do direct damage is a big downer.

    Bottom tier:

    Trainer: As far as I have been able to determine, there is no reason to ever use this dressphere. The dressphere itself is strictly average (HP and MP Stroll aren't as useful as you might think), but the relative difficulty of acquiring it, as well as how late in the game you get it, means that what you get is definitely not worth the work involved. Unless you like the idea of using pet animals that you can rename, this dressphere is totally pointless and redundant.

    *********************

    Final Fantasy IV Advance Tiers:

    FFIV tiers

    In the original FFIV, the concept of tiers was largely absent, because your party members were pretty much chosen for you at all times and you didn't have a choice with using whom you wanted. Some characters were definitely better than others, but since you couldn't choose who you wanted, it didn't really matter. With FFIV Advance, however, you are now free (albeit only at the end of the game) to choose your party members and, since the chracters are obviously different from one another, it's now safe to compile a tier listing for the game. So with that, on with the tiers. Note that these tiers are for endgame only, since that's really only when tiers really apply:

    God tier (S class):

    Kain: Holy crap, what an improvement. Kain was battling it out with Cecil for being the worst of the original final five characters, since he was totally 1-dimensional and his damage efficiency was suspect. They were probably tied, since Kain could avoid a lot of shit while jumping, while Cecil made an okay backup healer. But in FFIVA, Kain's usefulness goes through the roof. Kain's trial has him gaining two things: DOuble Jump, a beefed up version of his regular Jump, and a new ultimate weapon, Abel's Lance. Either one of these things would have pushed Kain to top tier, but having them both makes him almost broken. Double Jump is literally Jump with double power, which means that being armed with a spear (which he will always be, as I'll soon get to) means he gets quadruple damage every time. Armed with the 255 battle power Abel's Lance, that translates into a all but guaranteed 9999 damage attack *every* turn, for no cost other than the initial start up time.

    And Abel's Lance is stupendously good. Not only does it have a battle power of 255, it has the audacity to randomly cast Tornado, arguably the cheapest spell in the game. It even casts it on enemies that you can't cast Tornado on normally, like Behemoths. Furthermore, since Tornado only casts when you select Attack, you can control when you want the spell to hit. Thus, Kain doesn't suffer the same backlash problem that other characters with ultimate weapons that cast random spells do, like Cecil and Cid. YOu'll never have to worry about Tornado getting reflected if you don't want it to. So with Kain, you're either getting guaranteed 9999 damage, or a heavy damage attack that has a random chance of making you able to KO the enemy on the next character's attack, with no chance of it getting reflected unless you're stupid about it. And on top of all that, the Tornado cast by Abel's Lance seems to 1-hit KO Brachioraidos, the most powerful and cheapest enemy in the game. True, Kain's still 1-dimensional overall, but now he's so stupidly powerful that it doesn't matter.

    Rydia: Rydia was definitely the best character of the original final five, with damage output that was second to none thanks to her summon spells and black magic. In FFIVA, this doesn't really change - Bahamut still owns everybody, and when you don't need to break out Bahamut, you can mop up with Tornado (cheapest spell in the game, makes taking down high HP enemies a breeze, and very few enemies are invulnerable to it), Flare (guaranteed 9999 damage against a single target) or Quake (hits all enemies HARD, and cannot be reflected) - so she's still one of the best. She still has low HP and dies too easily, unfortunately, though you can rectify that somewhat with the right equipment. Otherwise, her only weakness is reliance on MP, which isn't too bad since by the end of the game you can make enough money to basically stock up on elixirs, plus you're seldom *that* far from a save point, so she shouldn't be running out regularly. Her trial upgrade is nice - the Mist Ring makes her Dragon summon cast a single shadow Image on all party members - but I found it more of a novelty that actually being useful. You can get a semi-cheesy defensive pattern going by alternating Dragon Summon with ROsa's Miracle - Dragon summon will make you avoid attacks, and Miracle will heal what damage slips through - but it's usually better just to outright kill stuff with Bahamut/Flare.


    Top tier (A Class):

    Rosa: A white mage is still indispensible in FFVIA, and even though Rosa now has actual competition from Porom, she still ends up on top. WHile Porom gets her spells a tad earlier than ROsa, ROsa has higher HP and higher MP, a better final weapon, and a better end-game upgrade. ROsa's trial upgrade turns her useless Pray command into Miracle, which is actually useful. You either get the equivalent of a party-all Cura, or a heal all + curaga all, all for free. It gives Rosa something to do when you don't need to heal really badly, but you don't feel like wasting one of your 20000 gil arrows on some hapless peon enemy. Holy still kicks ass if you need the extra damage, but mostly ROsa is there to keep the party alive, and no one does it better than her.

    Cecil: Cecil's tier ranking actually matters little since he's the only character you can't remove from your party, ever, without a gameshark(?). But I'll still rank him for the sake of completeness. I'd place him right about here: He got a decent boost in FFIVA, with a 255 battle power holy-elemental weapon that randomly casts Holy. Armed with such a weapon, Cecil is able to pile on the damage more than ever. And he still has a ton of HP and very high defense (more so thanks to his heavy armour and shields), so he's still an awesome tank. His new weapon has some drawbacks in certain fights though - namely, any enemy who casts Reflect, like Wicket Mask and Proto Phase; also Brachioraidos and Zeromus EG, albeit to a lesser extent. A reflected Holy from Cecil usually results in a guaranteed KOed party memeber. But in my experience, it doesn't happen often enough to result in re-equipping for those fights.



    Second Tier (B Class):

    Edge (tie): Of the original final five, Edge got improved the least. In fact, his trial equipment actually gives him a *downgrade*. His Hanzo Glove turns Steal into Plunder, and Plunder, to be blunt, *sucks*. PLunder is basically Mug, where Edge delivers a physical attack while stealing. BUt there are a number of problems with this. First of all, Plunder doesn't increase Edge's stealing rate, at least not as far as I've been able to determine. Plunder still has the same penalties as Steal, meaning that 80% of the time you try to steal something, you get a "Detected by the enemy" message and Edge loses some HP. Secondly, FFIVA has very, very few items that are actually worth taking the trouble to steal. The only must-have item that you'd want to steal is the Siren, which you need if you want to reliably get into a fight with Flan Princesses so you can have at least a miniscule chance of acquiring a Pink Tail for Adamant Armour. The rest is mostly rubbish, or are simply not worth the effort to acquire. But say there is something wortth stealing. Edge normally can steal an unlimited number of items from a target. Anything worth stealing is usually worth stealing in large amounts, but with Plunder, you end up killing the target, thus limiting the number of items you can steal! How is this a *good* thing? And on top of all that, even if there was an item you wanted to steal but you still wanted to inflict damage, the damage dealing portion of PLunder doesn't actually kick in unless you sucessfully steal. So no matter what, Plunder is just total ass.

    Aside from that, Edge does get some new weapons that boost his attack power to 255, which is good. This boosts Edge's damage output to such that he doesn't need to rely on throwing expensive Fuma Stars all day for decent damage. The fact that he *can* still throw Fuma Stars for guaranteed massive damage still makes Edge one of the better characters though. He's just not any better overall than he was before. He still has two decent end game spells (Image and Smoke; Flame, Flood and Blitz are all useless at the end of the game, and Pin is always garbage as far as I know) and is still pretty fast. Unfortunately, his HP is still on the low side and his defense is still awful. So yeah: Overall, Edge is no different from before, which means he's still pretty good.


    Cid (tie): Cid is tied overall with Edge in the rankings. Cid gets my vote for the second most improved character, right after Kain, and tied with Edward. In the normal game, Cid is just *there*. He has high HP, but his attack is merely okay, and his special ability - Study/Scan - was useful back in 1991 when you weren't familiar with the game, but is obsolete to anyone who has played the game more than once. His weapon handicaps him, being two-handed, meaning he can't equip a shield, meaning his evasion is nonexistent, so his high HP gets taken down pretty quickly. And while much of this doesn't change in the end game, at least his last two weapons put his damage potential through the roof. Cid hits REALLY hard at the end. And he has much greater HP than any other character. Give him some decent armour, and he becomes a great meat shield, soaking up damage and dishing it out in return. HIs final weapon not only has an attack power of 255, but randomly casts Flare which, contrary to what the description says, is non-elemental and cannot be resisted or absorbed. Unfortunately, Cid's intelligence is so low that the follow up Flare does pretty little damage in comparison, but every little bit helps. It has the same problems with getting reflected back as Cecil's Holy, but in this instance, Cid's lousy intelligence proves to be a bit of a bonus, since he's unlikely to KO his own teammates. Study is still useless though.


    Palom & Porom (tie): The twins are tied in as well, and what I say for one applies to both, so I'm ranking them together even though you don't have to use them both if you don't want to. Both the twins are good, but are outclassed by Rydia and Rosa in nearly every possible way. The only thing the twins had over Rydia and Rosa is that they learn their spells earlier. Oh, and Porom has more HP than Rydia does. BUt aside from that, anything Palom and Porom can do, Rydia and Rosa can do better. Rydia's summons means that she has more damage potential and versatility than Palom, and Rosa has much higher HP and higher MP than Porom, so she can last longer in a fight. MOreover, the twin's trial upgrading of their Twin into Double Meteor, is quite sucky. A free Double Meteor sounds good on paper, but I swear it takes even longer to cast than a regular Meteor, and moreover, the fact that it takes both twins out of commission while it's being cast is usually too big a cost in any fight where you would *need* Meteor, unless you have Rosa backing up Palom in the white game department. Bahamut is still better and won't tie up more than 1 character, except against enemies who counter summons, most of whom you still want to cast Bahamut against anyway.

    So yeah: Palom an Porom are actually pretty good, because black and white magic is indispensible in FFIV, but are outclassed by Rydia and Rosa, so there's no real reason to use them.

    Edward: Edward actually got a pretty sizeable boost in the end game, about on par with Cid. However, Edward is such a shitty character during the main game - easily the worst character by a huge margin - that the level of improvement only puts him into "okay" status at the end game. At the end of the game, he still has the worst HP in the game of the regular 10 characters, and is useless when near death since he automatically hides. Since he can't do anything while hidden except reappear (he can still run perhaps?), there's no usefuless to this special ability. While he cannot be damaged, he also cannot be healed, so it's not as though he can escape death, heal in safety, and then reappear at full strength. On the other hand, his special equipment makes him actually quite hard to kill, he has probably the best overall stat growth, and his end game equipment and upgrades are pretty damn good. His last two harps actually inflict decent damage, with the Apollo Harp having the bonus of inflicting massive damage against dragons, including the Brachioraidos. That alone makes Edward useful, and why I put him at the bottom of this tier instead of at the top of the next tier.

    Furthermore, Edward's trial equipment upgrades his useless Heal into Chant, which casts Protect and Shell to all party members in a single turn! While Protect and Shell aren't *that* great in FFIV (I'm not sure if their effects can stack - I didn't notice any difference when casting Chant multiple times in a row), being able to shield the entire party at once from all damage is never a bad thing. If Protect an Shell were better spells then Edward would be much better, but as it is, it only makes him decent. He can hold his own and doesn't die as quickly as his low HP would suggest, but all the better characters are either more versatile, can inflict more damage, or last longer in a fight.


    Third Tier (C Class):

    Yang: Now this is a sad surprise. Before FFIVA, I dreamed of being able to dump Edge in the end team and replace him with the powerhouse Yang. During the main game when you have him, Yang is great! He has enormous HP, high attack power, and is pretty fast. Power is a great boss killer. HIs defense isn't so great, but his high HP makes up for it. Gird ups his defense, though I'm not sure how long its effects lasts or if it can stack. The main thing is, I always figured Yang at the end came would be able to not only hold his own in the damage department, but be able to last much longer in a fight than Edge, at the very least.

    By the end game, however, Yang quickly becomes obsolete, and ends up being the worst of the final 10 characters. Deadly is pretty good, inflicting triple damage, but its start up time is atrocious, taking much longer to actually inflict damage than even Kain's Double Jump, and of course he's completely vulnerable while storing power for the attack, unlike Kain. Kick is as useless as ever, and doesn't even inflict damage on certain enemies (so you can't use Kick to kill, say, a Golden Flan that's at critical HP after eating a Tornado). BUt even though his attack power is high, his damage output, not counting Deadly, is the lowest of the physical damage characters because his weapons don't add to his battle power. Kain, Cecil, Edge and Cid all inflict more damage with their regular hits than he does with his.
    Furthermore, for some unfathomable reason, Yang's HP is capped at 6000, meaning that one of his best features - extraordinarily high HP - is rendered worthless once other characters are able to match him or surpass him. And because he doesn't equip shields (well, he can at least equip a Hero shield, but only at the cost of his offense), his defense is still poor. So capped HP + low defense makes for a character who doesn't surivve as long as he should, and his weak weapons means that isn't hitting targets as hard hard as anyone else. He can still use Deadly every turn to inflict massive damage, but the start up time on it means that Yang is grossly inefficient. As it is, Yang is only somewhat useful against bosses, and even in that regard, he's still outclassed by every other character.

    So alas, poor Yang. He's great during the main part of the game, but he just doesn't cut it at the end.



    Fourth Tier (D Class):

    Fusoya: This is mostly for completeness sake, since you can't use Fusoya at the end game without a Game Shark or something. Anyway, Fusoya is a monster when you first get him, being at a pretty high level, having decent HP and MP, and being able to cast every single white and black magic spell. If you decide to stick him back into the party at the end game when you have access to every one else, you'll see that he just doesn't stack up, mainly because his HP and MP growth are *terrible*, with his HP being even below Edward's and his MP being about 1/3rd of what the other mages have. Now, I don't know if it's because Fusoya's stats are stuck at the same level he was when he left - I doubt it, since his HP and MP and level get scaled upwards to match the rest of the party, so I imagine his stats would be calculated accordingly - but he's just an awful mage compared to Rydia, Rosa, Palom or Porom even at the same level, on top of having less HP and far less MP. And his Health ability is shit when you first get it, far less at the end. So yeah - there's no point to using Fusoya at all.


    Tellah: Again, this is mostly for completeness sake. Tellah is pretty decent when he shows up in the early parts of the game, being your first source of decent magic damage, and eventually being able to cast almost all white and black magic (he's missing Holy, Quake and Flare, for some reason). But thanks to a storyline limitation, he ends up being the worst character in the game overall. His most glaring flaw is the fact that his MP is capped at 90, always, so even though he knows Meteor, he can never, ever cast it without using items. And while his MP is fine during the main game, at the end of the game he would run out of MP way too fast to be of much use. But even if he had 999 MP, Tellah would still be the worst character in the game, because all his other stats are equally terrible. He's got the worst HP of all the characters, even worse than Fusoya's, and his overall Intelligence and Will make him a much, much worse natural mage than any other character. Yeah, you can techincally fix his HP and MP by feeding him Golden Apples and Soma Drops, and you might as well since you need to cheat just to get him in your party in the first place, but you can improve any character by doing this, and it proves nothing. On his own, Tellah is completely worthless at the end game, and there's no point to putting him in your party beyond the sake of novelty.
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    FINAL FANTASY IX TIERS

    GOD TIER:

    Amarant/Salamander: Easily the best character in the game. This guy can do EVERYTHING. He hits really hard (second only to Zidane + Ultima Weapon), he can counter physical attacks (not a big deal, since few enemies use physical attacks in FFIX), and can counter magic attacks (a very big deal since, last I checked, every single enemy in FFIX uses magic, and they use it about 60% of the time)! Furthermore, he can Throw stuff for big damage, he can cast auto-life, he can revive dead characters, he's one of only two characters who can heal HP AND MP, and his Trance is one of the best (can cast his useful abilities on all party members or all enemies).

    TOP TIER:

    Freya: Jump is powerful, and can be a life-saver at times. Reis Wind is one of the best healing abilities in the game. White Draw can restore the entire party's MP, though it's kinda expensive. Kill enough dragons (which you will once you start leveling up), and Dragon Crest does 9999 per attack. Her Trance is decent, allowing her to rack up damage over a period of time completely safe. Her versatility is second only to Amarant's.

    Eiko: She's the second healer/summoner, but she's superior to Garnet in every way. She has a much better selection of defensive spells, and Holy and Madeen do INSANE amounts of damage. Fenrir is a versatile summon that makes him one of the few worth casting. Furthermore, she casts Phoenix, which means she gives you a chance of randomly coming back when you get wiped out. Trance (casting two white spells in a row) can be useful if you're in a jam.

    Zidane: He barely makes this tier. He hits hard (at the end, he does the most amount of physical damage when equipped with Ultima Weapon and has full HP), he can steal, his Thievery ability is potentially very powerful (does damage based on how many successful steals he's done) and it cannot be blocked, and his Trance abilities do massive damage (even the weaker ones are guaranteed 9999 damage when he's at a high enough level). He can also make the party run away easily. And if need be, he can heal the party by sacrificing himself.

    MID TIER:

    Vivi: Powerful attack magic, and little else. He gets bonus for being able to counter magic and for being able to blow through reflect. He can't really do anything else though. His trance is so-so (casting two black magic spells in a row isn't generally as useful as casting two white magic spells in a row, though you can end fights more quickly if you cast stuff like two Flares).

    Stiener: Powerful physical attacks, but little else. He suffers from the early part of the game where the cast splits up, and he's in the group that doesn't get focused on as much, meaning that he's 10-15 levels behind the characters in the other party, and you feel no pressure to catch up. He lags behind Zidane and Amarant in the normal damage department. However, he's got the best trance in the game (does double damage for everything). Some of his special abilities like Shock are extremely powerful as well.

    Bottom Tier:

    Garnet: She's a healer, so she's not useless (not until Eiko comes along anyway), but everything else she has is lame. Her defensive spells are shitty, and summons are weak unless you power them up by having large numbers of their items in your inventory. Even her strongest summon - Ark - doesn't do anywhere near enough damage for the minute-long animation. Everything she can do, Eiko does much better.

    Quina: Blue Magic in FFIX is utter ass. Even former uber spells like Big Guard are punkified in this game. So there goes Quina's main schtick. S/he does have a few useful spells - Frog Drop is probably the best, as it can potentially do 9999 damage for only 3 MP, but it takes a really long time to power it up. Limit Glove gives you 9999 damage at 1 HP, but you have to be at 1 HP all the time to abuse it. Everything else ranges from shitty to mediocre. And Quina's special abilities aren't much use once you learn all blue magic spells. Her trance is the lamest in the game, merely making it easier for her to eat enemies.

    **********************************

    Xenogears Tiers

    Characters:

    Top tier:

    1) Citan: Up until Fei gets to level 80, which is some 60 hours into the game at best, Citan is by far the best character in the game. He's an overpowered beast from the beginning, with a ton of HP, excellent spells, and is twice as fast as every other character. Once he gets his sword, his damage-dealing ability goes through the roof, and the Power Crisis extends his damage to ludicrous levels. You'll get far more mileage out of Citan + Power Crisis than Fei + Power Crisis, simply because Citan gets his sword so much earlier.

    2) Fei: Before level 80, Fei is one of the best characters in the game, with really strong attacks and very good speed, but he can't compete with the beast that is Citan. After he gets to level 80 it's more debatable, since his final deathblow is twice as strong as his second strongest or anyone else's strongest. But he's still not as fast as Citan.

    3) Adult Emeralda: She's the fastest character in the game, and unlike her weaker child form, she actually does a ton of damage now. She has stronger spells than Elly, though magic outside of gears is really not worth it IMO.

    There's bit of a gap between Citan/Fei and Adult Emeralda, but they're still better than the rest of the cast.

    Second Tier:

    Billy: HIs guns attacks HURT. He also has the benefit of being able to use ether attacks for free, several of which no-sell enemy defense. He's also got some really good defense spells.

    Emeralda: Still insanely fast which is good, but doesn't hit as hard. Still has the decent spells, but as I said, there isn't much point to casting attack magic if you're not in a gear.

    Mid tier:

    Bart: Thoroughly average in every department.

    Maria: Here's the deal: If you give her an etherdoubler and an econoether, and then do nothing but summon Siebzehn, she can rack up a ton of damage. She's utter crap otherwise though, but at least she has a reliable method of dealing damage.

    Low tier:

    Rico: He hits really hard, but a) he's too damn slow and b) his accuracy is god awful.

    Elly: As a human, Elly is crap. She's slow, does little damage, and remember what I said about using attack magic outside of gears. BUt worse, her magic has the audacity to miss sometimes. She also has really poor accuracy.

    Crap tier:

    Chu Chu: No reason to use her in character form.

    ********************************

    Gears:

    God Tier:

    1) Xenogear - No question asked

    Top tier:

    2) Weltall-2: System Id is all you need to know.

    2) Crescents: Very fast, hits hard, and hits infinity mode almost as often as XG. You can also have her take over for Elly and equip her with Several Powermagics and Etherdoubler and just cast spells and wipe all enemies out.

    3) Vierge: I thought Vierge was crap, until I learned about Ether Doubler + Power Magic x 2/3. With that, Vierge does 9999 damage to all enemies for a measely 400 fuel.

    Second tier:

    4) El-Renmazuo: Using the same tactics as Elly and Emeralda (i.e. Etherdoubler + PowerMagic x 2/3), El-Renmazuo can enormous damage with his ether attacks. You don't even need to do deathblow, just do square attacks every turn.

    4) El-Stier: This gear is MUCH better than Rico, and is one of the best gears of them all. Has enormous HP and can do enormous damage. Furthermore, he also gets infinty mode quite easily, more easily than anyone not named Fei or Emeralda.

    5) Fenrir: The gear is nowhere near as good as Citan the human is, but still damn good. Very fast, and his sword can do big damage. BUt you'll almost never see infinity mode with him.

    6) Siebzehn: Really high HP, and tons colossal damage (equip her with the Omega100 engine and DeathBlower 1, and she'll almost 20000 damage every other turn two turns in turn for 20 fuel). Only drawback is she's horribly slow.

    Mid tier:

    Andvari: It's the worst of the omnigears, but it's still better than everyone else's original gear.

    Low tier:


    Everyone else's non-omni-gear.

    Wild Card: Chu-Chu. She's normally the worst of the "gears", but if you feed her stat boosters she can potentially become the best, like having 50000 Hp and healing other gears for 16K a pop. I've never bothered though, since the money required to do such a thing is astronomical, and it's something I would only attempt via a game genie. But anyway, Chu-Chu can be either your best or your worst character, but under normal circumstances she's the worst.
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    Lady Luck is a top tier dress sphere in FFX-2. Way before you get Catnip, you were Gillionairing everything in your path with rigged slots. The fact that the slots can be whatever you want through simple pausing-repausing makes Lady Luck brokenly good.

    For FFIV Advance, I'd tier it:

    Top Tier:

    1. Cecil - An offensive and defensive powerhouse, Cecil can dish out the damage and take it in return. Ragnarok makes him pretty much your best single damage dealer in endgame. In postgame, Lightbringer is an even stronger sword which randomly casts Holy. The only time that is bad is vs. enemies who cast reflect. But seriously, how many are there by that point? Evil Masks and Zeromus EG? In the original, he was even more broken because Avenger equipped or cast Berserk on him, and Cecil basically turned into a hasted murdering machine. Berserk (and thus Avenger) was nerfed in this remake, but Cecil still is superior.

    2. Rydia - Bahamut. That is all. Unreflectable, all hitting damage. Flare (Nuke) is great for single target damage, and Rydia has MP to spare casting all of this stuff. Ashura was better on the SNES version because it was (2/3 shot of very good healing vs. 1/3 shot here). Her Mist Dragon upgrade (single Blink status on all) is quite useful too, seeing that Mist Dragon does damage equal to her current HP (meaning its cheap, effective damage at high levels... plus her Blink-all bonus). If you were somehow really lucky and found Cockatrice in the beginning of the game, that's like a free death spell vs. everything from start to finish.

    3. Rosa - Best healer in the game. Rosa actually gets the important spells earlier than Porom. Rosa Reflect 36, Curaja 38, Full-Life 45, Holy 55 vs. Porom Reflect 44, Curaja 49(!), Full-Life 56(!!), Holy 52 (the only one earlier). Her HP, defense, and attack power are vastly superior to Porom's. Pray/Miracle isn't much to fawn over, but I'll take Miracle's chance of free Curaja-all + Ensuna-all over Double Meteor any day.

    Second Tier

    4. Yang - GodHand + CatClaw is basically free ownage in Lunar Subterrain. It's Holy Damgae + high percentage of sleep on all sorts of Undead in the endgame dungeon. Not to mention Power is your Behemoth (arguably the most dangerous enemy during regular game) killer because it can't be countered. Gird/Kick suck and shouldn't be used, but Yang is far from being any lower than high second tier.

    5. Edge - Edge was godtier on the SNES thanks to item duping meaning free Excalibur darting. Well, though item duping is gone, throwing is still strong, and you'll have plenty of obsolete weapons to chuck around at the endgame bosses when the time comes. For random battles, you can purchase Fuma Shirukens underground for very good damage from the safety of the back row. Or if you're strapped for cash, regular Shirukens aren't too shabby either.

    6. Palom - A better Black magic caster than Rydia. He learns spells earlier and has a higher base Wisdom stat. It's just that Summons > Black magic because summons cannot be reflected and don't trigger nasty counter-magic like Palom's spells do. Twin is horrible, so I don't even consider it. Double Twin is twice as awful and should never be used.

    Mid tier:

    7. Cid - He has a great attack because of his extremely strong weapons, plus good defense. He's basically another Cecil except his speed, which is a good bit slower than Cecil. Which means Cecil will be able to strike more times and do more damage over time. Not bad if you wanted another offensive tank in your lines, but Cecil does the job fine already. His Thor's Hammer endgame does random Thundagas and his Fiery Hammer in postgame does random Flares, both a very good thing except vs. Zeromus EG who has reflect on almost always.

    8. Kain - I'd say he got shafted in FFIV Advance due to the battle system. Yes, his Abel's Spear is probably the best postgame weapon because of its random casting of Tornado (Weak), but Double Jump is not that great. It takes forever for Kain to come down from his jumps now. In the SNES, Kain's jumps were almost as fast as his normal attacks, as he basically jumped up and came down within 1-2 turns. In FFIV Advance, Kain stays in the air forever, many times having battles already finished while he's still searching the skies. Double Jump may do double the power of Jump, but considering that a regular Jump is almost hitting the 9999 mark already, is Double Jump truly necessary? I don't think so. While Kain was in the air, Cecil already hit 2-3 times at 6000+ each hit (possibly more if Lightbringer activated); Rydia probably wiped the field clean with Bahamut; and anything left alive was cleaned up by someone else. ATB screwed Kain over royally.

    9. Edward - Better than I initally though now that I spent some time playing him. His endgame and postgame weapons are the only reasons why he's not complete trash because they target weaknesses that are abundant in those dungeons (Dragons and Undead). Still, his abysmal HP and the fact that he auto-hides when he's low on HP (meaning he's contributing absolutely nothing when your party is at its most critical) means he's barely bottom of mid tier, very arguably bottom tier.

    Bottom Tier:

    10. Porom: Everything she can do, Rosa does better. There is no need for 2 white mages and if you're going to use 1 healer, you might as well pick the superior one in Rosa.

    11. FuSoYa: All the magic in the world doesn't sound so great when you have a craptacular 190 MP limit. Would be A LOT better if his MP were Rydia/Rosa/Twins level.

    12. Tellah: So bad they killed him off. He probably caused your Cecil to kill himself more times than necessary because Cecil was auto-covering this piece of garbage. 90 MP limit makes you able to cast only 2-3 good spells max before you need a recharge. Tellah is best left dead in battle so he doesn't inadvertedly kill Cecil.
  • roninwarrior24roninwarrior24 Custom Title Joined: Posts: 635
    I've heard things about Royal Guard being broken in DMC3. Can anyone elaborate? I thought everyone used Trickster. Tiers for melee/guns/styles please.
  • BucketHeadBucketHead Joined: Posts: 344
    "Suge Night" is top tier in LIFE!


    ice ice babyyy!
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Strike:

    > Lady Luck is a top tier dress sphere in FFX-2. Way before you get Catnip, you were Gillionairing everything in your path with rigged slots. The fact that the slots can be whatever you want through simple pausing-repausing makes Lady Luck brokenly good.

    Lady Luck is good, no doubt, but it requires a lot of work to get it to do that. Who the hell wants to pause/unpause for every turn every battle? Dark Knight, Berserker, Mascot and Alchemist are all extremely good and are completely brainless. I suppose Lady Luck could technically be a top tier if you put in the extra amount of work, but there's still risk involved in using it, not to mention it's still not better than the others who can do pretty much the same thing without dragging out battles x 10.

    re: FFIV Advance

    Not putting broken ass Kain in the top makes zero sense. Even with the ATB glitches, he's STILL better than everyone else. Free 9999 damage or random instant-death on the next turn? AND heavy regular damage? AND he avoids damage because he's in the air most of the time? AND he has really high defense? AND he can 1-hit KO Brachiorados? You can't stop Kain!

    And I still think Rydia's better than Cecil overall, since she's more versatile and much more of an efficient enemy killer. Reliant on MP, but then again, she has Osmose. And Rosa is more important to your party overall. BUt those three are close, so I guess it's not a huge deal.

    My problem with Yang is that he becomes obsolete the fastest come endgame. HP stopping at 6000 really hurts him. And in my experience, his damage is awful. At least when Kain takes 3 days to come down from DOuble Jump, he's avoiding all damage. When Yang takes 3 days for Deadly, he's getting ravaged. And his regular attack seems to be the weakest of the physical damage characters. Why fuck with status ailments when you can just kill things outright? Yang is only good at the start of the end game, when you haven't gotten anyone else's uber equipment, which is probably why his trial comes first.

    By design, the twins are at least middle tier. Yes, everything they do, Rosa and Rydia do better. BUt magic on the whole is still a good thing to have in FFIV, so they don't suck. Rydia and Rosa are just better. If you want two healers, you need Porom and Rosa. If you want two damage dealers, you have about 4 characters before you should even consider Yang. That's why I put Yang in the bottom tier (not counting GS-enabled characters).

    BTW, Fusoya's MP does grow, but apparently it only starts to grow when he's level 70 or something. It doesn't matter, since he's a much worse mage than the playable characters. Tellah's in the same boat, except his MP never goes above 90 without using apples, and his wisdom/intellect are even worse than Fusoya's. Crap of the crap tier, definitely, which is why he's dead I guess. :p
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • StrikeStrike Joined: Posts: 78
    You only have to pause-unpause to rig slots with one of the girls. In one turn, it's over with CONGRATS! and you get a bucketload of gil, rare items, and EXP. Not to mention you can top tier healing and magic attacks in the other slot combinations. And pausing-unpausing is not that big of an inconvience considering how incredibly strong the outcomes are.

    IMO, Kain isn't top tier at all because he spends all his time in the air. Him being "safe" in the air means he's not contributing in battle. Considering that the game is not too difficult to begin with, I'd say the majority of the time, after Kain jumps (which seems to have startup time for him just lifting off), the rest of your party has already cleaned up the battle at hand. 6000+ x3 damage with minimal threat of dying > 9999 "guaranteed" damage after waiting an eternity. Before you got Abel's Lance, Kain was just a poorman's Cecil.

    Yang's Deadly is used for Behemoths and King Behemoths because it doesn't trigger their counters. Those are the 2 enemies who have the most vicious counter attacks. I'd say in postgame in the Lunar Trials, Yang's effectiveness decreases. But in the regular endgame finale dungeon, Lunar Subterrain, Yang's incredible speed and God Hand/Cat Claw were cleaning up all the enemies in your path. Yang has the best speed in the game and so his turn comes up more times than anyone else... meaning he gets to attack more times. I'd still rate Yang at least midtier in postgame due to him having so many turns per battle.

    Palom is the better twin. He has higher Wisdom than Rydia for a good portion of endgame and postgame (until Rydia finds her postgame equips). Plus Palom learns black magic spells earlier than Rydia. Also, I think it's having 2 offensive spell damage dealers could be a valid option wheras having 2 healers is pretty much a waste. You never need THAT much healing. Porom, having less HP, defense, and attack than Rosa... learning most of the important white magic spells much later than Rosa... and having a much crappier postgame ability (Double Meteor, which is dependent on having another character in your party), makes her bottom tier for me.

    As for FF9, I think Quina is a lot better than you made her out to be. Frog Drop is 9999 damage for 3 MP. I don't see how powering up Frog Drop is any different than powering up for Zidane's Theivery or Freya's Dragon Crest. IMO, Quina/Zidane/Freya (and possibly Stiener because of Shock) are top for their 9999 abusability. The rest fall behind them.
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Strike:

    > You only have to pause-unpause to rig slots with one of the girls. In one turn, it's over with CONGRATS! and you get a bucketload of gil, rare items, and EXP. Not to mention you can top tier healing and magic attacks in the other slot combinations. And pausing-unpausing is not that big of an inconvience considering how incredibly strong the outcomes are.

    I'm going to have to do some more research I suppose. How does Lady Luck fair in Via Infinito?

    > IMO, Kain isn't top tier at all because he spends all his time in the air. Him being "safe" in the air means he's not contributing in battle. Considering that the game is not too difficult to begin with, I'd say the majority of the time, after Kain jumps (which seems to have startup time for him just lifting off), the rest of your party has already cleaned up the battle at hand. 6000+ x3 damage with minimal threat of dying > 9999 "guaranteed" damage after waiting an eternity. Before you got Abel's Lance, Kain was just a poorman's Cecil.

    Kain doesn't have to spend all his time in the air, though he has that option as well. The air is just guaranteed 9999 safe damage, which isn't even necessary against most enemies. If he's on the ground, he's hitting like a mofo and you're getting random Tornadoes which makes every enemy easier to kill (sans those who have reflect). Double Jump also works on enemies that physical attacks don't work on too well, like the flans.

    The fact is, Kain kills things, and he does so without barely getting scratched. Cecil also kills things, perhaps a little more quickly (I'm not sure about three turns for every DOube Jump, but I guess it's how fast you input commands), but not as safely, and he has fewer options. And even though it's only against a few nemies, he also HAS to worry about randomly getting his Holy reflected and killing a party member. Kain never has to worry about that.

    Also: Kain gets a 1-hit KO on the strongest, cheapest enemy in the game. That's better than anything Cecil can do.

    > Yang's Deadly is used for Behemoths and King Behemoths because it doesn't trigger their counters. Those are the 2 enemies who have the most vicious counter attacks.

    So he's somewhat useful against two enemies who end up being complete jobbers anyway. You can kil Behemoths/K.Behemoths without getting scratched by abusing Blink anyway.

    > I'd say in postgame in the Lunar Trials, Yang's effectiveness decreases. But in the regular endgame finale dungeon, Lunar Subterrain, Yang's incredible speed and God Hand/Cat Claw were cleaning up all the enemies in your path. Yang has the best speed in the game and so his turn comes up more times than anyone else... meaning he gets to attack more times. I'd still rate Yang at least midtier in postgame due to him having so many turns per battle.

    As I said, while Yang isn't bad per se, I put him bottom because his fall from grace come end game is the worst. BEing somewhat useful against two enemies you can kill without geting hurt otherwise is not all that great. I suppose he's not that bad in the regular end dungeon though. BUt that's before end game, no? His only time to shine is right after he gets his final equipment and before anyone else gets theirs.

    Also, Yang speed wut. Yang supposedly has the best speed, but I remember being frustrated by Yang's attacking efficiency. I swear that Cecil and Edge were getting in more attacks per turn than he was. And it doesn't help that Yang has crappy defense. AND a 6000 HP cap? Forget it.

    > Palom is the better twin. He has higher Wisdom than Rydia for a good portion of endgame and postgame (until Rydia finds her postgame equips). Plus Palom learns black magic spells earlier than Rydia. Also, I think it's having 2 offensive spell damage dealers could be a valid option wheras having 2 healers is pretty much a waste. You never need THAT much healing.

    Brachioraidos, if you don't have Kain to instant kill it. Also, the Lunar Subterranea/Core, before end game, it can be useful. Not mandatory, but it can help, especially if you're at a low level.

    > Porom, having less HP, defense, and attack than Rosa... learning most of the important white magic spells much later than Rosa... and having a much crappier postgame ability (Double Meteor, which is dependent on having another character in your party), makes her bottom tier for me.

    Double Meteor ir rubbish, no doubt. BUt as for her spells... Well, that depends on what you do with your party before you get to the end. I usually go for the Land of the SUmmon Monsters, The Sylph Cave and Bahamut before I fight the Giant of Babil. You need Rosa to learn Reflect to go through the first two. So by the time I get the chance to switch party members at the end, my characters are already in the 40s. So I'm not missing that much, if anything, though I never took Porom the first time through the final dungeon.

    > As for FF9, I think Quina is a lot better than you made her out to be. Frog Drop is 9999 damage for 3 MP. I don't see how powering up Frog Drop is any different than powering up for Zidane's Theivery or Freya's Dragon Crest.

    Because Zidane and Freya don't suck otherwise.

    > IMO, Quina/Zidane/Freya (and possibly Stiener because of Shock) are top for their 9999 abusability. The rest fall behind them.

    Amarant gets top billing because he can do anything and everything, except cast standard magic. NOt necessarily 9999 abuse, cause nearly everyone can do that. It's what happens when you get fucked over by Ozma's Curse or by Necron's Curse Jr. (can't remember the name now) that's important. Straight damage is nice, but in FFIX, balanced versatile characters are better. That's why I put Vivi and Steiner in mid - yeah they can inflict heavy damage, and they do it well under normal circumstances, but they can't do anything else. Amarant, Freya, Eiko and Zidane (barely) are the best overall characters. Quina has a few decent spells, but is complete rubbish otherwise and, in my experience, is the first to die in a serious fight. Garnet is also garbage, but at least she can heal respectably. Plus, Odin kills Yans.
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    If Amarant get top tier for doing everything then Quina should too.

    Just because you were too lazy to learn and use Blue Magic in FF9 to the full potential doesn't mean we all were.

    BLUE MAGIC:

    Frog Drop--255% accurate, defense ignoring, non-elemental, 9999 damage to anyone in the game for the cost of 5 measly MP. What's better than that?

    Frost--Cause freeze to whole enemy party. Good for random battles and to help steal.

    Bad Breath--Thoroughly incapacitate a non-boss enemy...though some bosses are vulnerable to some of the effects, too

    Auto-Life--Nuff' said, one of the only two character that can give Auto-Life

    Angel's Snack--For 2 MP, remedy the whole party instantly. In a game where status effects play a much bigger role than other FFs, this is invaluable.

    Limit Glove--Like Frog Drop, but can only be used when HP is 1. This is invaluable and a boss-killer early in the game

    Magic Hammer--Effectively neuters almost any boss in game, even Ozma

    Mighty Guard--Shell and Protect everybody instantly, nuff' said. Thoroughly makes Eiko and Garnet as support characters useless.

    Mustard Bomb--Causes heat, which isn't quite as useful as freeze, but still good for the occasional strong randomly encountered enemy

    Night--Cause sleep to everybody...seeing as you can immune yourself to sleep status...this is still useful

    Vanish--Only way to cause Vanish status, nuff' said

    White Wind--FULL PARTY HEALING

    So if Quina can heal, give some of the best support statuses in the game, have rare elemental magic like Wind and Water, and have a guaranteed 9999 damage attack, how is Quina worthless?
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • boxbox Joined: Posts: 1,611
    Anyone wanna tier the Espers in FF3/6 JP?
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    In terms of summon usage or stat growths or both?
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,180 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Ultima wrote:

    I'm going to have to do some more research I suppose. How does Lady Luck fair in Via Infinito?

    extremely good due to Mighty Guard +, Megalixir+ and Auto Life against Trema.

    the ideal dressphere are mascot and theif in via infinite. the mascot for the defense and theif for first strike and flee ability.

    btw, Gun Mage is top tier. more info here http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2548644&postcount=74
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Return of Shiki:

    > If Amarant get top tier for doing everything then Quina should too.

    No, because Amarant does everything well, while Quina... doesn't.

    > Just because you were too lazy to learn and use Blue Magic in FF9 to the full potential doesn't mean we all were.

    I'll ignore that.

    BLUE MAGIC:

    > Frog Drop--255% accurate, defense ignoring, non-elemental, 9999 damage to anyone in the game for the cost of 5 measly MP. What's better than that?

    Well, it costs 5 MP with Half-MP I guess. But anyway, Frog Drop is one of the *few* good blue magic spells. It takes a long time to power up though.

    > Frost--Cause freeze to whole enemy party. Good for random battles and to help steal.

    Far too high a failure rate for my tastes. This isn't FFVII or FFVIII, where you don't have to be at a ridiculously high level for a status ailment to reliably connect.

    > Bad Breath--Thoroughly incapacitate a non-boss enemy...though some bosses are vulnerable to some of the effects, too

    Only targets a single enemy. A fun spell, but nowhere near as good as it used to be.

    > Auto-Life--Nuff' said, one of the only two character that can give Auto-Life

    And Amarant is the other one. And several characters can just equip Auto-Life ability.

    > Angel's Snack--For 2 MP, remedy the whole party instantly. In a game where status effects play a much bigger role than other FFs, this is invaluable.

    And it costs 4 remedies. And I can think of only two fights where this might be useful: Against Ozma (where Quina is a liability overall, unless you're trying to beat Ozma at very low level or something), and against Necron (where it would be somewhat more useful, assuming you have remedies to burnand Quina you have characters that survive the random instant death). It's a waste of time otherwise.

    > Limit Glove--Like Frog Drop, but can only be used when HP is 1. This is invaluable and a boss-killer early in the game

    Assuming QUina surives long enough to use it. Only really useful when combined with Auto-Life. If you don't have the ability equipped, in the time it takes for Quina to cast Auto-Life, die, comeback, and then cast Limit Glove (which you might only get one chance at, depending on the enemy party), you could probably have wiped out the enemy party with better characters.

    > Magic Hammer--Effectively neuters almost any boss in game, even Ozma

    It's not as good as it used to be (this applies to a lot of Blue Magic spells). But it's not useful against Ozma at all. I've done 4-digit MP damage to Ozma, wiping out his entire MP, only to have him cast MP absorb against Quina immediately afterwards and then slaughter my entire party with Meteor right after that. It can be useful against soe enemies, but usually, again, with better characters, it's easier and faster just to wipe the enemy out.

    > Mighty Guard--Shell and Protect everybody instantly, nuff' said. Thoroughly makes Eiko and Garnet as support characters useless.

    Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish. All support spells (save maybe Auto-Life, and even then, the ability is better) are garbage in FFIX. Who actually casts support spells? They run out FAR too quickly. Big Guard is better than casting the individual spells, but not a lot so. Big Guard is also hella expensive, even for this game.

    > Mustard Bomb--Causes heat, which isn't quite as useful as freeze, but still good for the occasional strong randomly encountered enemy

    See what I said for Freeze.

    > Night--Cause sleep to everybody...seeing as you can immune yourself to sleep status...this is still useful

    Doesn't have much use come end game. With the possible sole exception of Grand Dragons, since you can use this to fight them early in the game and not get killed instantly, why would you want to bother with sleep when you can just kill enemies outright?

    > Vanish--Only way to cause Vanish status, nuff' said

    And since EVERY SINGLE ENEMY in the game casts magic, and uses magic about 66% of the time, how is this a good thing?

    > White Wind--FULL PARTY HEALING

    Yeah, about the equivalent of a cure 1.5 normally. It's better than nothing I suppose, but it's yet another spell that got hosed in this game.

    > So if Quina can heal, give some of the best support statuses in the game, have rare elemental magic like Wind and Water, and have a guaranteed 9999 damage attack, how is Quina worthless?

    Her healing is rubbish, status ailments are too hit or miss and not worth casting most of the time, and her 9999 attack takes a long time to power up. And in the mean time, she has shitty random damage and has low HP, so she dies too easily.

    Ouroboros:

    You don't need thief when you can just use Highwinds GG. Highwinds + Catnip + Gunner = All but 4 enemies in the game (Chac, Paragon, Trema and one other I can't remember) die on the first turn. I can't see how any of the other dressspheres can compete with that. Who needs versatility when you can just kill things automatically?

    Your post about Gunmage doesn't tell me anything. You're going to have to define "crazy damage". I also don't have a save where I can try anything out. Is it something I need to be at level 99 to make use of?

    Dark Knight and Berserker have to be top tier. Dark Knight not only has high defense and high attack, it has mindlessly good attack with Darkness. You need an Alchemist to back her up, but it's still unblockable free damage every turn to all enemies without thinking. And you don't even have to control Berserker once it's counter abilities are learned. Berserkers = free win against Elder Drakes if you don't have Catnip to abuse.
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • MertMert Yaouchh Seafood Soup Joined: Posts: 377
    Anybody got tiers to Final Fantasy III/6... :rofl:

    J/K don't want to open that can of worms again.


    But seriously what are the tiers for Shining Soul II? I'd say everybody has thier purposes. If you could rank them in solo plan and in co-op play.
    Let's get real. The only reason I even go on SRK anymore is for the SF2CE thread. True story.
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    You keep saying that Frog Drop "takes too long" but really what kind of argument is that?

    It's like saying Magneto isn't top tier like Cable because the ROM infinite takes much longer to get down than AHVBx5.
    Or that Yun isn't top-tier like ChunLi in 3rd Strike because Genei-Jin is harder than B+HP for infinity then D+MK, SA2.

    Really, seeing as many FFIX players like to get Thievery and Dragon Crest to do 9999 damage, I don't know how catching frogs is worse than stealing way too many times or killing 100 dragons (which is done the fastest and easiest way by using *gasp* Quina's Lvl 5 Death!).

    And if your Quina falls so much, then obviously you never got her best stuff by beating Quale, and don't make use of vanish or Mighty Guard.

    And don't overlook White Wind because it's the only normal healing spell in the game that cure the whole party at no reduction to power.

    And what kind of idiot uses Quina for her fork attacks? That's like using Eiko for her flute attacks. Face it, blue magic is NOT useless. What the use of putting enemies to sleep rather than trying to wipe everything out as fast as you can? Because sometimes you don't WANT the enemies to die before you've done stuff like steal all their rare items, dumbass.
    You keep saying her spells are "rubbish" and are toned down from other games but that doesn't explain how she's supposedly useless and bottom tier.

    Nobody out of the 8 final party members in FFIX is useless, or even below mid-tier.
    Vivi and Steiner are the lowest two and solidly mid-tier because they're too one dimensional, but still far from useless. Garnet is also mid-tier because she not only is a worse white mage than Eiko but none of her summons are stronger than Madeen either.
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,180 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Ultima wrote:
    Return of Shiki:



    Ouroboros:

    You don't need thief when you can just use Highwinds GG. Highwinds + Catnip + Gunner = All but 4 enemies in the game (Chac, Paragon, Trema and one other I can't remember) die on the first turn. I can't see how any of the other dressspheres can compete with that. Who needs versatility when you can just kill things automatically?

    Your post about Gunmage doesn't tell me anything. You're going to have to define "crazy damage". I also don't have a save where I can try anything out. Is it something I need to be at level 99 to make use of?

    Dark Knight and Berserker have to be top tier. Dark Knight not only has high defense and high attack, it has mindlessly good attack with Darkness. You need an Alchemist to back her up, but it's still unblockable free damage every turn to all enemies without thinking. And you don't even have to control Berserker once it's counter abilities are learned. Berserkers = free win against Elder Drakes if you don't have Catnip to abuse.

    if you equip the invincible and use annihilator, it does around 48,000 damage to everyone, ignores magic defense although it can be shelled.

    since you get gunmage extremely early, you get white wind and absorb for free healing and mighty guard for defense boost. fire, stone and bad breath works really well earlier on also.

    even though highroads wind gives you first strike, it doesnt give you the flee ability. i also perfer the valiant luster over high roads wind in the 100 level dungeon
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Warhammer 40,000 table top game:

    God-Teir: Tau, Tyranids, Craftworld Eldar (Iyanden)
    High Teir: Black Templars, Khorn, Imperial Guard, Orcs
    Mid-Teir: Necrons, Space Wolves, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Ultra Marines, Black Legion
    Low Teir: Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, Eldar,
    Crap Teir: Blood Angels, Dark Eldar

    I should also note that it's possible to win against anything below god teir with just about anything else.
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Return of Shiki:

    > You keep saying that Frog Drop "takes too long" but really what kind of argument is that?

    I never said it takes "too long". I said it takes "really long". I also said it was one of her few decent spells. Try again.

    A minour note, but I should also point out that catching frogs is solely for Frog Drop. At least when you're stealing for Thievery or killing dragons for Dragon Quest, you're gaining free items and lots of experience.

    I've beaten Quayle, thanks. Quina may last longer, but she still dies the fastest (except maybe for Eiko). And I repeat, what good is Vanish when the majority of attacks in the game are magic or magic-based? Mighty Guard is good, but you pretty much have to spend very other turn casting it cause it wears off so fast. I'd rather just kill things outright with better characters.

    I brought up the point about her fork because the better characters are versatile with with physical and magic attacks. Quina is reliant on MP, and most of her spells aren't that good. A few are good. Some are okay or have use in specific situations. The rest aren't worth bothering with. I keep comparing her Blue magic to previous games' Blue Magic because in previous games, blue magic rocked. In IX, it's mediocre at best.

    Also, with the possible exception of grand dragons (and only because they're so dangerous), what normal enemy is worth casting sleep on, that sleep works on, to steal from them? And what boss (who is worth stealing from) is susceptible to sleep?

    And finally.. WHEN did I say Quina was useless? Or that any character was useless? I said she was bottom tier because she's the worst of the characters, but I didn't say she was useless. As you said, no character is useless. She's just not as good as the others.

    Ouroboros:

    re: Gunmage

    Hmm. Next time I trudge through that game, I'll hve to give that a try. That's still a far cry from about 200,000 HP in one shot though.

    Concerning Highwinds road, if you have First Strike and catnip, then you don't need flee really. You'll just kill everything you come across instantly. I can't remember what Valient Lustre does. :|
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • Return of ShikiReturn of Shiki Your favorite game sucks Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I suppose you forgot you get plenty of free items for catching frogs for Frog Drop.
    So there goes another argument out the window. And it takes WAY longer to build up Thievery than Frog Drop.

    And Blue Magic SUCKED in FF5 and FF6 (and FF10 if you want to count the Blue Ape as a blue mage)

    It was at its best in FF9 and FFTA.
    If you listen to fools, the mob rules...
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    Warhammer 40,000 table top game:

    God-Teir: Tau, Tyranids, Craftworld Eldar (Iyanden)
    High Teir: Black Templars, Khorn, Imperial Guard, Orcs
    Mid-Teir: Necrons, Space Wolves, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Ultra Marines, Black Legion
    Low Teir: Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, Eldar,
    Crap Teir: Blood Angels, Dark Eldar

    I should also note that it's possible to win against anything below god teir with just about anything else.

    No Sisters of Battle nor Witch Hunters?:sad:
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • UltimaUltima Retired SF Aristocrat Joined: Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Return of Shiki:

    > I suppose you forgot you get plenty of free items for catching frogs for Frog Drop. So there goes another argument out the window.

    No , I didn't forget. I didn't bother to mention it because the items either aren't that good or can be found elsewhere with less hassle. Last I checked, You get 5 items for catching frogs: Silk Robe (I suppose it's okay early on), Elixir (bleh), some forks (good for Quina, but as you said, who's using her physical attack?), and a Battle Boots (good, but you can more easily buy these). This in no way compares to the dozens of items and equipment you get from stealing, or the experience you get for killing Grand Dragons.

    > And it takes WAY longer to build up Thievery than Frog Drop.

    To 9999 damage maybe, maybe. But Thievery can hit big damage a lot earlier than Frog Drop if you're stealing constantly (which is almost a given). Frog Drop only gets powered up in spurts, and there are times when you can't really power it up at all because the frogs don't regenerate fast enough. Stealing is at least constant. AND, in the meantime, Zidane at least can kill things without Thievery (regular physical attack and Trance abilities) and survives better due to higher HP/def, and you're not stuck in some damn swamp doing nothing else. Quina's still sucking until she gets Frog Drop at decent levels, and continues to die the most easily even after she gets to do 9999 damage.

    > And Blue Magic SUCKED in FF5 and FF6 (and FF10 if you want to count the Blue Ape as a blue mage)

    Blue Magic was just as good as regular magic in FFVI. Most of the blue magic spells were rubbish, just as most of the regular magic spells were either rubbish or became obsolete after a time (i.e. after you got Ultima). True, nothing was as good as Ultima, except maybe Vanish-Doom, but Grand Train and Quasar were almost as good if you didn't feel like glitching your way through the game. White Wind was a potentially better healer than Cure 3. Big GUard was still awesome (though hardly necessary if you had Marvel Shoes).

    Admittedly, I can barely remember using blue magic in V. Time Magic was boss in that game.

    Blue Magic isn't that good in X, yeah. Well, not quite: Mighty Guard, Bad Breath and Stone Breath are all great. But since they're overdrive spells, and you can't abuse Overdrives like you can in VIII, they're really not worth using.

    However, Blue Magic rocked in VII. Hands down the best version of blue magic ever. Trine (when you first get it), Aqua Breath, Shadow Flare, Pandora's Box, Angel's Whisper (best healing spell in the game), White Wind, Bad Breath, Big Guard, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. All great spells.

    BLue Magic was also good in VIII, albeit only if you abused the skip-turn glitch and kept Quitis at low HP (and since this was the to play in all but two battles, why wouldn't you?). Degenerator/Bad Breath/Shockwave Pulsar every turn for free? Fuck IX's shitty blue magic.

    > It was at its best in FF9 and FFTA.

    VI, VII and VIII > IX. Dunno about FFT.
    Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Hellion wrote:
    No Sisters of Battle nor Witch Hunters?:sad:

    Right! Knew I forgot someone! I'd say the entire Inquisition occupies the lower-mid teir though. I played demonhunters for a bit and from personal experiance, I can tell you you need to invest TONS of money to get that army to work right (which is why I no longer play them).

    Sisters get really good special units, but their basic troops are kinda lacking. Not to mention the entire army is pewter.:tdown:

    But then again, nothing eats a Nid army like a column of Sisters armed with flamers and heavy flamers, so I'd say they're better than Demonhunters.

    It was at its best in FF9 and FFTA.
    Both of which are pretty crappy games to begin with. And honestly, if you were using blue magic in FFTA, I feel sorry for you. You could've had an entire party of LONG RANGE INSTANT DEATH. Assasins made that game too easy. Period.

    And also, I'd like to say that VIII > VII
  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    Right! Knew I forgot someone! I'd say the entire Inquisition occupies the lower-mid teir though. I played demonhunters for a bit and from personal experiance, I can tell you you need to invest TONS of money to get that army to work right (which is why I no longer play them).

    Sisters get really good special units, but their basic troops are kinda lacking. Not to mention the entire army is pewter.:tdown:

    But then again, nothing eats a Nid army like a column of Sisters armed with flamers and heavy flamers, so I'd say they're better than Demonhunters.

    I guessed I'm just biased since I just started playing and chose this army, after having a long standing run with Battletech so I think I'll be fine once I get the army completed (far from it though)

    Their Elites are hot, nothing clears a battleground faster than a Vindicare Assassin and 19 Sisters of Repentia, with a Priest.. Thing is those are all elites (priest HQ). To use the Vindicare you gotta have an Inquisitor or an Inquisitor Lord, another Elite or an HQ choice... Which means you've practically got to be running huge armies to get the most of these choices, especially when the whole of the Sisters of Battle depend more or less on well timed Acts of Faith.

    To get the most out of that you have to be running lots of squads of Sisters, upgrading Sister Superiors to Veterans and get a Cannoness, Fast Attacks, etc.
    Not to mention they're all resiliant to Psychers, which is more or less a plus.

    You've got their vehicles too, and all their support you get just by picking a Inquisitor. All that hardware looks pretty and all but like someone told me more or less getting one is like packing all your eggs in one basket, however strong that basket is the armies are so versitile that it won't take long before a unit comes along and destroys it. I dunno.

    Looks to me to get the most of this army's strengths you have to play it at 1000+ Minimum, and you have to play a straight across the board army of Sisters
    because Inquisitors/Lords powerful as they are cost so damn much they can be an army of their own:annoy:
    But those Assassin Temples are hot too, Callidus just "beams" anywhere she wants and cleans house, though she probably won't live too long.
    Perhaps the main reason I chose the army though was because starting out I remember playing Vindicare long ago before the rules changed again.

    You're right though they cost a lot and they're all Pewter, but is that a factor on guaging its strengths when it fights at its best?

    Besides, think about it man, you're the pimpin commander of an army of WOMEN, how could you loose?:rofl:
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
    ST-Guile
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Yeah, Sisters can be pretty sick, but there's alot that forces them a bit lower in the rankings than most other armies.

    They have weak HQ. This is one of those armies where you pick an HQ choice and let them sit back for most of the battle. This genarally isn't bad because one of the three god teir armies, and some of the upper teirs function pretty much the same way.

    True, you can pump an Inquistor Lord up to being useful, but like you said, it's just too many points.

    They are Strength 3. It's pretty tough to wound in close combat with a strength 3. Against the majority of the armies you'll play against, this means you are wounding on a 5+. Against Nurgle, you can only wound on a 6. This can be fixed with faith, but it's kinda random.

    I personally don't think the Vindicare is worth it. 120 points for 6 shots. 6 AWESOME shots mind you, but when the chips are down, the Vindicare has never pulled through for me. Again, this is a personal thing, the Vindicare is VERY good, but I don't think he's useful enough to field. Callidus is much better IMO.

    REPENTIA! Repentia are awesome until everyone figures out what they can do. They get to move an extra d6 every round, have strength 6 chainfists, and their leader has a power weapon. Sick. If you can get them in EVERYTHING dies, but I've also seen these units get shot down in the first round too many times to think them good anymore. They would be excellent in a higher point game where you could field more than one unit.

    Sisters have insane Heavy support, but tanks blow up too easy in the current edition unless they are skimmers. Other than that, the Exorcist is probably one of the most broken things in this entire game. Penetant engines are good to because of their special rule concerning immobilization/weapon loss.

    But Sisters do have tons of good points. Power armor, space marine equipment, faith, Ballistic Skill 4. All these give sisters an edge.

    All in all, I say mid tier because although they ARE great, they can't deal very well with close combat (Khorn, Tyranids) or swarm armies like Guard or Orks (unless you equip every other sister with a flamer, which just isn't that practical for every game).

    In a shoot-out situation, Sisters are SCARY though.
  • GalzGalz Joined: Posts: 869
    Virtual On

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  • HellionHellion .5 Beat Combat Joined: Posts: 888
    -snip-


    I didn't realize just yet the limitations of strength 3, perhaps I was just counting on the "faith" factor.

    I remember hearing the Exorcist having "near-inpenetrable" frontal armour or some such.

    So far as Vindicare and Repentia goes, my theory on this, along with the fact that to run Vindicare requires at minimum you go basic elite Inquisitor, is the sniper keeps their heads down, Inquisitor calls in naval bombardments or some such (further keeping their heads down) while Repentia runs in under cover with either more troops or a vehicle (Exorcist?) I forgot what the Priest does gotta check, I think he helps them run further or hit more often. Add to that the Vindicare "capping" the squad leader the Repentia are gunning for and its a slaughterhouse. It's funny though that Callidus can do all this on her own without support, take out what.. Maybe 5 models when she shows up?
    Guess though you're right you need either a huge army or one designed to support just Repentia, which is near impossible with 500 point battles IMO.

    I dunno I guess I just love those battle-scarred ladies.

    So far as the HQ goes, Cannonness or Palatine (I don't really think Palatines are worth it unless you're into hard-core Roleplaying) There are upgrades you can use for her that help her live a little longer and there are advantages to choosing her and having her die after runnin in there. Of course I'm not too familiar myself with the sequences just yet but it looks like she's really just an "Acts of Faith Battery" lol

    I'm still relatively "new" to this game, perhaps not wargaming in general (depends on your opinion on Battletech) I heard that Warhammer was, bar none, the best there was. Rules and everything.

    Still though it was interesting seeing you bring up a tier list for the 40k universe. Is that list pretty much the general agreed upon consensus?
    "No one quits SRK. NO ONE" -wepeel
    P-Kyo(2), Guile, Cammy
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