Trust

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  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    First off, well done and thanks for doing the research on this. Quick question: Why were the counters tested from a standing position rather than on wakeup?

    Thanks again for this research!!
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Good question- while it would be more practical to include knockdowns as well, I just focused on more basic things of the theory itself, and defining the three sectors. Also the savestate was easy to work from and it allowed me to work with more constants rather than add one more variable, e.g. for knockdowns, recovery times could play into that more for variance, possibly. Claw moves so fast in the air during the wall dive which made it a little easier too.

    Without seeing it all go down frame-by-frame and the white crosshairs of the characters' centers, a Sector 1 looks an awful lot like a Sector 2. Since the claw player still benefits even though he may not know exactly himself whether he got Sector 1 or 2, due to the sheer ambiguity of the wall dive, it's very easy to walk away from a lost game thinking that it was one way when it was actually the other or that your stick was broken etc. So I took pains to illustrate something so basic as, ok here's just how to simply block it. If anything, maybe I'll refer to these studies myself when I lose to it and felt overwhelmed. :)

    Knockdowns can be added without too much difficulty in any case. It would also probably be a good idea to add scripts of what happens when P2@Ryu "guesses wrong", and does the wrong counter (e.g. Sector 1 counter for a Sector 2 attack, etc). Simply understanding, ok I got that one wrong because I messed up vs. I got that wrong because I guessed wrong of the one out of three choices might help.
  • LunaSlaveLunaSlave insert title here Joined: Posts: 150
    I have no idea how the technical side of this works, but it looks absolutely brilliant. well done! I wonder if this could work for other old games? Would love to see a similar tool for KOF 98.
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    snip

    Ah ok. Thanks for the response, and once again, thanks for all of the research! These tactics alone have proven how lucky we are to have a program like TRUST for ST.
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I thought I posted something important in this thread already but it seems I overlooked it all this time. If you have used TRUST to make your own unique customized scripts, and are on Windows 7, the savestate you create gets kind of "hidden" which is probably really frustrating. You can still use it and refer to it in TRUST, eg you saved a gamestate to slot 7 and can reference it as &7.sta in a script, however you can't find it Windows Explorer and can't rename it. You can find it in your "Virtual Store" which is a folder kind of hidden itself. Open Windows Explorer or command prompt by going to C:\Users\[your user name here]\ and click inside the path field at the top to edit the path. Add \AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\TRUST\sta\ssf2t\ and it should be there:

    HOW TO RECOVER YOUR LOST SAVESTATES ON WINDOWS 7 (and Vista?):

    C:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\TRUST\sta\ssf2t

    Go to that folder and copy it back to TRUST\sta\ssf2t\ (the real folder).

    You can rename the file eg 71.sta and refer to it that way i.e. in scripts write &71.sta and it will load that savestate. And each time you want to make more savestates, you can do it the same way eg always press Shift-F7 to make the savestate, and just keep overwriting 7.sta after you have renamed them to other numbers.

    Sorry for missing explaining this, I'm sure this must have confused some people! Basically what happens is, because TRUST gets installed to Program Files, when you create data that doesn't use UAC, newer OSes put it in the Virtual Store instead.
  • schlaflyschlafly Joined: Posts: 3
    made this script to test reversals. it's set up for the script to control Ryu (P2) and the user control Chun (P1). for the original save state, i just had ryu push up against Chun and saved it. if you want to switch characters, you may need to change some timing. here's a Youtube demonstration of the script in action:

    just copy and paste the below text into one of the custom .MSI files in /Trust/Macro/macro & put the state in /Trust/sta/ssf2t and it should work.


    ### SSFT2 reversal throw timing
    # speed: turbo 3
    # P2 Ryu does c.HK, walk forward, meaty c.HK
    # P1 Chun must reversal throw. Reversal SBK will work too.
    # If you make your own save state, make sure to replace the &69 with &XX (your state #)
    # For optimal save state, push Ryu next to Chun, then create save state.

    &69 W80-
    D.D6.W10,_L.W54.^L.D6.W80,^D,

    W120!
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Good stuff! btw your video is private, so we can't see it yet. I was able to set it up fine as you described, but I just wondered at first if you had Chun near the corner after getting knocked down or not when I was making the savestate. (She's not or at least, I got it to work without anyone near the corner... also, she is supposed to get knocked down, right? in order to get the Reversal throw when Ryu attempts the second low hard kick.) I'm really glad to see this- exactly the kind of practical thing players can use and it's kept very simple and straightforward!

    I could definitely not get the timing at first. Looking into the proper timing using frame-by-frame, I noticed that you need to throw on either frame 152 or 153 only. 151 and earlier, or 154 and higher will fail. Well, that is according to my particular savestate- might be different on others' savestates, with such strict timing and how ST skips frames. I.e. maybe you guys will only get one frame window of opportunity instead of two frames. Please confirm (pause a little before frame 151, frame-advance while holding Right direction on stick plus fierce (3) hard punch, and try again on next loop to confirm for the next frame). I got Fei Long's stage for whatever that's worth but I doubt that matters whatsoever. The timing is such that you input the throw on the frame that you start to SEE ONSCREEN Ryu's crouching low hard kick start to come out, like only the first frame. Here's my Custom7SuccessReplay.mis script, below to complement yours. I added +.R3 - right after Ryu's low hard kick. It can also be +..R3-, but not +...R3-.

    XSPR


    #### schlafly from TRUST thread on srk ST forum's script-
    #### test reversal throw as P1@Chun vs. P2@Ryu.
    #### I made savestate in center of stage, no corner, hope that's ok

    ### SSFT2 reversal throw timing
    # speed: turbo 3
    # P2 Ryu does c.HK, walk forward, meaty c.HK
    # P1 Chun must reversal throw. Reversal SBK will work too.
    # If you make your own save state, make sure to replace the &69 with &XX (your state #)
    # For optimal save state, push Ryu next to Chun, then create save state.

    #&77 W80-
    #D.D6.W10,_L.W54.^L.D6.W80,^D,
    #
    #W120

    ### XSPR edits below- same script here just playing with P1@Chun's inputs
    ### to confirm I am getting it on the right frame. In my particular savestate,
    ### Schlafly's script gives me two frames. I imagine due to ST frameskip,
    ### the window of opportunity to get the reversal throw varies eg 1 frame sometimes?
    ### Not sure about that just guessing.
    &77 W80-
    D.D6.W10,_L.W54.^L.D6.
    +.R3 # <--- XSPR adding P1@Chun's inputs here. +..R3 also ok. +...R3 fails.
    -W80,^D,
    W120

    !
  • schlaflyschlafly Joined: Posts: 3
    Thought I switched the vid link, but guess I forgot. Oops, should work now

    Chun is near mid-screen, and she should be getting knocked down by the first c.HK. I was toying around with it by first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK, and then going for a reversal SBK on THAT knockdown if the throw failed. I couldn't get the reversal throw working in frame-advance mode though, is there some trick to it?

    My state seems a little different frame wise too, when I toggle the hitbox viewer the red box on Ryu's c.HK doesn't become active until frame 155, and Chun gets sweeped on frame 156.
    I uploaded my save state if you want to check it out, here's the link. Should be P1 Chun vs P2 Ryu on Ryu's stage: http://www.2shared.com/file/ASUpS0Jk/69_online.html

    There's definitely something involving frame-skipping on my save states too. I was trying to get one where you could attempt a built-in DP vs. a reversal move (Chun's Upkicks), but I could never get a consistent reversal. Most of the time they would be reversal, but occasionally not and sometimes don't come out at all - on the same save state. Changing the frame she inputs kick on up or down by 1 can still get a reversal message sometimes. Really weird.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I was toying around with it by first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK, and then going for a reversal SBK on THAT knockdown if the throw failed. I couldn't get the reversal throw working in frame-advance mode though, is there some trick to it?

    I can make a quick video explaining the process I go through in order to find it, but basically it's a little trial and error. You start by saying, ok Chun has to throw AFTER she gets up, and BEFORE she gets hit by the 2nd crouching hard kick-- so try it on one frame in there. How to actually try it involves turning on input display (hotkey 5 which for my setup is the "5" key on my keyboard), and pressing P to pause it right before she gets up or as she's getting up (this is around frame 140 or so). Then while it's paused, frame-advance by using the backquote key. Ok so on my first try, let's say frame 150 or so looks like a good time to attempt the throw. So I frame-advance to 149, then hold down P1@Chun's right direction on the stick and hard punch or mid punch, and while still holding those inputs, frame-advance one more frame to frame 150. I can confirm I got the desired inputs (and didn't "mess up the move" so to speak) by looking at the input display in lower left corner of the game window. That one frame worth or inputs should be enough to get it, so I can let go of Chun's inputs and frame advance a few more times. I see that Ryu trips her, so I know that it's not frame 150, and I have to try it on another frame. So I press the P key again and let the script loop again, then press P to pause it again around frame 140 or so, and frame-advance to say frame 154. It's too late by that frame so I try it all again, by unpausing and letting the script cycle again. I got it on frame 152. (I usually confirm to myself that it actually works by trying it a second time from 152, just like I often press "C" on a calculator like 5 times even though pressing it once does the trick, or like how some people walk up to other people waiting for an elevator and the button is ALREADY PRESSED AND LIT yet they can't resist pressing it, like what, that's going to make the elevator come any faster?) Ok so that works, 152, maybe make a note of that, say add "# frame 152" in the script itself. But I want to have a more comprehensive understanding of the timing window, so I'll reconfirm that 151 does NOT work and also try 153-- which does work. Then, I'll go back to the script, copy it and paste it right below, comment out the original above and work on editing the copy as an automated solution/Observe version by adding Chun's inputs along with Ryu's. I can't say just say "Chun throws on frame 152" in the script, so I again have to go through a little trial and error, and use frame-advance again to confirm if my first attempts are too early or too late. I.e. I know it's 152, so after Ryu's second "D6" I add +R3- but that doesn't work, but since I know it's 152 I can tell if I did it too early or too late using frame-advance when I watch it play back (again, with input display turned on). Another tweak or two will get it.

    btw I noticed you said "first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK" but I'm not sure about the term "meaty" (never have been). I think the term was meant to refer to attacks that were already in the hitting stage or well into the hitting portion, as opposed to what the script has where Chun can stand up before the attack starts hitting and Ryu is still in the "start-up" stage of his cr. HK attack. Chun has a chance to throw because of this (ie I don't think you can reversal throw if Ryu delays his attack such that the hitting portion occurs as she finishes getting up-- and if I'm wrong about that you can test it by just making Ryu's cr. HK start slightly earlier in the script).
    My state seems a little different frame wise too, when I toggle the hitbox viewer the red box on Ryu's c.HK doesn't become active until frame 155, and Chun gets sweeped on frame 156.
    I uploaded my save state if you want to check it out, here's the link. Should be P1 Chun vs P2 Ryu on Ryu's stage: http://www.2shared.com/file/ASUpS0Jk/69_online.html


    No I think that's the same for my savestate too, you're fine. 155 and 156 for me too. Keep in mind that the hitbox viewability presents boxes one frame behind I think. So basically by that point, if Chun hasn't already completed her throw inputs (or started blocking low), she will get swept.
    There's definitely something involving frame-skipping on my save states too. I was trying to get one where you could attempt a built-in DP vs. a reversal move (Chun's Upkicks), but I could never get a consistent reversal. Most of the time they would be reversal, but occasionally not and sometimes don't come out at all - on the same save state. Changing the frame she inputs kick on up or down by 1 can still get a reversal message sometimes. Really weird.

    That sounds interesting but I'm not sure what you mean. Can you describe that savestate in more detail or post the script itself? What is a built-in DP, is that like Ryu will do a DP or block or something safe? Reversal messages should appear regardless of whether or not they actually hit or beat out other attacks. Sometimes in actual games we get a fireball instead of a DP which also gives the message (but loses to the opponent's attack).
  • schlaflyschlafly Joined: Posts: 3
    I can make a quick video explaining the process I go through in order to find it, but basically it's a little trial and error. You start by saying, ok Chun has to throw AFTER she gets up, and BEFORE she gets hit by the 2nd crouching hard kick-- so try it on one frame in there. How to actually try it involves turning on input display (hotkey 5 which for my setup is the "5" key on my keyboard), and pressing P to pause it right before she gets up or as she's getting up (this is around frame 140 or so). Then while it's paused, frame-advance by using the backquote key. Ok so on my first try, let's say frame 150 or so looks like a good time to attempt the throw. So I frame-advance to 149, then hold down P1@Chun's right direction on the stick and hard punch or mid punch, and while still holding those inputs, frame-advance one more frame to frame 150. I can confirm I got the desired inputs (and didn't "mess up the move" so to speak) by looking at the input display in lower left corner of the game window. That one frame worth or inputs should be enough to get it, so I can let go of Chun's inputs and frame advance a few more times. I see that Ryu trips her, so I know that it's not frame 150, and I have to try it on another frame. So I press the P key again and let the script loop again, then press P to pause it again around frame 140 or so, and frame-advance to say frame 154. It's too late by that frame so I try it all again, by unpausing and letting the script cycle again. I got it on frame 152. (I usually confirm to myself that it actually works by trying it a second time from 152, just like I often press "C" on a calculator like 5 times even though pressing it once does the trick, or like how some people walk up to other people waiting for an elevator and the button is ALREADY PRESSED AND LIT yet they can't resist pressing it, like what, that's going to make the elevator come any faster?) Ok so that works, 152, maybe make a note of that, say add "# frame 152" in the script itself. But I want to have a more comprehensive understanding of the timing window, so I'll reconfirm that 151 does NOT work and also try 153-- which does work. Then, I'll go back to the script, copy it and paste it right below, comment out the original above and work on editing the copy as an automated solution/Observe version by adding Chun's inputs along with Ryu's. I can't say just say "Chun throws on frame 152" in the script, so I again have to go through a little trial and error, and use frame-advance again to confirm if my first attempts are too early or too late. I.e. I know it's 152, so after Ryu's second "D6" I add +R3- but that doesn't work, but since I know it's 152 I can tell if I did it too early or too late using frame-advance when I watch it play back (again, with input display turned on). Another tweak or two will get it.

    I got the frame skip test working, I think I wasn't holding the commands down was the problem. I can only get the reversal throw on frame 153 though, 152 and 154 both fail even with multiple attempts on them. Just to be clear, I'm Inputting forward/MP on frame 153 to get the reversal throw.
    btw I noticed you said "first trying to reversal throw the meaty c.HK" but I'm not sure about the term "meaty" (never have been). I think the term was meant to refer to attacks that were already in the hitting stage or well into the hitting portion, as opposed to what the script has where Chun can stand up before the attack starts hitting and Ryu is still in the "start-up" stage of his cr. HK attack. Chun has a chance to throw because of this (ie I don't think you can reversal throw if Ryu delays his attack such that the hitting portion occurs as she finishes getting up-- and if I'm wrong about that you can test it by just making Ryu's cr. HK start slightly earlier in the script).

    I use "meaty" attacks for attacks where the hitting frames overlap the wakeup frames for your character. I thought in SF2 those can be reversal thrown due to the instant startup on throws (though I'm pretty new to SF2 so I'm not 100% on that). It looks like starting the cr.HK a frame earlier still allows Chun to get the throw in when you do frame by frame mode and input R + MP on each frame, but I'm not sure if the hitbox is active at that point.

    That sounds interesting but I'm not sure what you mean. Can you describe that savestate in more detail or post the script itself? What is a built-in DP, is that like Ryu will do a DP or block or something safe? Reversal messages should appear regardless of whether or not they actually hit or beat out other attacks. Sometimes in actual games we get a fireball instead of a DP which also gives the message (but loses to the opponent's attack).

    For a built in DP, I thought it was where you input the move right before you hit the ground from a jump attack, and if the jump attack whiffs due to a reversal, the DP will come out. If the jump attack hits then the inputs would occur during Impact freeze and not come out. I didn't get near that far when I was trying to create that script, all I was trying to get was consistent reversals from Chun.

    Here's the reversal script I wrote, I just used the same save state as above.

    &69 W20-
    _D.6.^D.+
    _D.W63.^D.U.4.5.6

    W80

    It seems like you get a reversal attack the majority of the times, but just from running this in the background I've seen non-reversal upkicks and nothing come out from the same save state/script. There's definitely less chance of a reversal if I'm holding a button for P2 as well, though I'm not sure if that's an ST issue or an emulator one.
  • WolmarWolmar Joined: Posts: 184
    So yeah, I got the good rom, and when I start either mame exe or observe/execute in TRUST, it REBOOTS my pc lol. How the hell ?... My system is XP pro SP3.
    Against Balrog, it determine the direction Shoryu fist input is difficult. Has been condemned to the left orinput, so right. I try to issue a reversal is born so firmly command you miss wandering.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Wolmar, could be any number of reasons, including bad RAM, old registry, or sector on HDD. I can offer some suggestions on ggpo next time we're on.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    I havent used these new scripts yet. But i can see how valuable these can be. So i just wanted to say thanks again for mrdhalsim for creating this tool, and continuing to provide scripts and schafly for a scenario thats obviously relavent to many, many players. And doing the testing and stuff for all of us who are too lazy(me, i swear, within the next year ill try it out myself! xD) and people who cant be bothered to do it themselves

    On anotber note, what were you referring to when there's more to it than actuqlly believed? Just the fact thats its more ambiguous than previously believed be ause of some specific (was it sector 2) wierdness? Or something else...
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Thanks Unessential- yeah give it a try, once you see how to edit a script you can create your own in like 5 or 10 minutes and it's not too difficult.
    On anotber note, what were you referring to when there's more to it than actuqlly believed? Just the fact thats its more ambiguous than previously believed be ause of some specific (was it sector 2) wierdness? Or something else...

    Basically I meant that, after Evo and how everyone saw MAO won, that players outside of Japan didn't seem to understand just how ridiculously powerful the wall dive actually is. I'm told that back in the day some top players in the US did know about the Sector 2 counter, but how you'd even come up with that counter without the tools available today to research it is hard to even fathom. Just to guess which sector it will be to simply BLOCK the move is a 50/50 GUESS (Evo's announcers jchensor and ultradavid were good about explaining this guessing element during the tournament, because it often "feels like" you are reacting when you are actually just guessing which way to block). If you want to actually COUNTER it, your chances go down to one out of three- but in practical terms, it's even worse because a lot of the time the claw player can just come down outside of DP range and land safely, and do an attack while you recover from a whiffed DP (or whiffed punch recovery of a wrong sector guess, esp drumming all 3 punches).

    Before Evo, I'd often downplay claw wins and people here would say I'm just whining, "It's just a little baby bear in the woods XSPR, why do you look so scared? bears are just like all the other animals in the forest like deers and squirrels." "Because I got mauled all the time by many claw players, bears are scary, omnivores and ridiculously overpowered" and they'd laugh, but then Evo came and it wasn't just a little baby bear, it was the big mother bear, and at first the baby bear claws were all like "yeah I'm scary, I'm the best," but they all got fucked up by the mother bear who was a lot more dangerous than the baby bears.
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    are you saying that MAO is the mother bear and ganelon is a harmless baby bear ?


























    j/k ganelon :P
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,712
    So all Claw players are bears, and all the other characters are like...deer and squirrels and rabbits and shit. That's what I took from this. LOL.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    Hmm i get what you mean now with claw... Havent followed st news since before evo... Havent even watched the ToL yet...

    But reading through your posts again i also recall seeing chuns counter with a standing mk which ive tried and failed. Now i sortof understand why i never got it to work, and also made me think ofna few possibilities why... Now for sure i gotta go in and create a script... Just a matter of when i can convince myself to get off my ass and actually do it .. Lol :lol:
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Since I saw recent pics of ARG and Otochun in tournaments (Otochun's twitter), I again believe MAO was not the scariest thing to be seen by western players.
    If you have used TRUST to make your own unique customized scripts, and are on Windows 7, the savestate you create gets kind of "hidden" which is probably really frustrating. You can still use it and refer to it in TRUST, eg you saved a gamestate to slot 7 and can reference it as &7.sta in a script, however you can't find it Windows Explorer and can't rename it.
    Microsoft: guessing wrong while taking over your own system resources for 30 years, and preventing you from using them properly.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Basically I meant that, after Evo and how everyone saw MAO won, that players outside of Japan didn't seem to understand just how ridiculously powerful the wall dive actually is. I'm told that back in the day some top players in the US did know about the Sector 2 counter, but how you'd even come up with that counter without the tools available today to research it is hard to even fathom. Just to guess which sector it will be to simply BLOCK the move is a 50/50 GUESS (Evo's announcers jchensor and ultradavid were good about explaining this guessing element during the tournament, because it often "feels like" you are reacting when you are actually just guessing which way to block). If you want to actually COUNTER it, your chances go down to one out of three- but in practical terms, it's even worse because a lot of the time the claw player can just come down outside of DP range and land safely, and do an attack while you recover from a whiffed DP (or whiffed punch recovery of a wrong sector guess, esp drumming all 3 punches).

    Before Evo, I'd often downplay claw wins and people here would say I'm just whining, "It's just a little baby bear in the woods XSPR, why do you look so scared? bears are just like all the other animals in the forest like deers and squirrels." "Because I got mauled all the time by many claw players, bears are scary, omnivores and ridiculously overpowered" and they'd laugh, but then Evo came and it wasn't just a little baby bear, it was the big mother bear, and at first the baby bear claws were all like "yeah I'm scary, I'm the best," but they all got fucked up by the mother bear who was a lot more dangerous than the baby bears.

    While I agree that US players didn't realize the extent of wall dives or how MAO made wall dives so difficult to counter, the sector system isn't the end-all explanation for wall dive counters that you seem to think it is. I believe I already mentioned this point last time. The sector system was just a simple way for MAO to explain how to counter wall dives in normal knockdown situations mid-screen.

    However, the system doesn't apply in all situations and anybody who thinks that way doesn't fully understand wall dive mechanics in the game engine. There are numerous other wall dive positions, such as near the corner, where there are many more nuances than can be explained by sectors. Shotos can also drastically increase their counter chances with more complex OS at any position (although some may be impractical since MAO didn't mention anything else). As for coming up with better counters, Trust is a great tool but the process isn't that complex with the tools I always used: frame-by-frame and save states in Kawaks.

    I would also still maintain that you were just whining about claw unless MAO was the only one you played, which is doubtful since he lives in Chubu. Top US players had already faced Japanese experts such as Noguchi, ARG, and Tokido in casuals. Their wall dives (and of course, mine as well) weren't incredibly hard to counter in comparison to MAO's. US players even knocked out ARG in a minor tourney. Therefore, US confidence was a result of actual experience with the "big bears" and not some irrational hubris. I can understand how you wouldn't be aware of these games since they weren't mentioned on SRK but that's why it's important to know all the facts.

    As for me, I acknowledge that I can't consistently match against a JP wall dive master unless I stop playing online. The claw mirror is so dependent on exact wall dive charge timing that my online-affected timing—a problem that I noted experiencing even back in SBO 2010 after 2 weeks of offline practice—is a deal breaker. All my whiffed jumps and kicks are testament to improper timing. Unfortunately, my location isn't the most conducive for offline practice. Nor is ST a priority for me at the moment to improve that or other aspects of my game. But I at least wanted to get some facts straight.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    While I agree that US players didn't realize the extent of wall dives or how MAO made wall dives so difficult to counter, the sector system isn't the end-all explanation for wall dive counters that you seem to think it is. I believe I already mentioned this point last time. The sector system was just a simple way for MAO to explain how to counter wall dives in normal knockdown situations mid-screen.

    Yes, MAO's sector explanation was a very good and simple way to explain a very complex attack, and I only tested mid-screen to make it even more simple. Before this, the reasonable assumption for everyone is that, in order to counter it, you either DP left or right depending on which side you think he'll come down on. How anyone is supposed to just figure out, on their own, that a THIRD counter, requiring a completely ABNORMAL sequence of inputs is required, is beyond me-- particularly when it is a motion completely OUTSIDE THE SCOPE of his entire moveset (ie yoga flame motion to get a DP? the heck is this, Rainbow Edition??).

    I mean let's say there's some guy who has never played the game before and picks up the game. It's reasonable to say that it won't be long for him to figure out that he has to hold back to block. And after a while, block overheads without problem and understand they need to be blocked standing-- simply after playing the game a while and recognizing which attacks act as overheads. This Sector 2 wall dive counter isn't quite like that. Even if you are "in the know", and a good guesser, there is still fairly strict timing for it.
    However, the system doesn't apply in all situations and anybody who thinks that way doesn't fully understand wall dive mechanics in the game engine. There are numerous other wall dive positions, such as near the corner, where there are many more nuances than can be explained by sectors. Shotos can also drastically increase their counter chances with more complex OS at any position (although some may be impractical since MAO didn't mention anything else). As for coming up with better counters, Trust is a great tool but the process isn't that complex with the tools I always used: frame-by-frame and save states in Kawaks.

    I'm not quite sure what you're saying... I think we all agree that the wall dive is a ridiculously powerful move in any case. If you are saying it is even more ridiculous in the corner, I don't doubt it! While cornering yourself against claw might help with the wall dive (in reducing his Sectors to only one, making it possible to consistently block without having to GUESS), other problems crop up just as quickly. So if there's some nuance(s) of the wall dive near the corner making the move even MORE complex, enlighten us by all means. And if Kawaks works too that is great. TRUST has integrated input and hitbox display, as well as scriptability for sharing and messing around (and easily repeating each others findings etc) but if it means the difference between someone testing something/making a video and not, by all means go for it.
    I would also still maintain that you were just whining about claw unless MAO was the only one you played, which is doubtful since he lives in Chubu. Top US players had already faced Japanese experts such as Noguchi, ARG, and Tokido in casuals. Their wall dives (and of course, mine as well) weren't incredibly hard to counter in comparison to MAO's. US players even knocked out ARG in a minor tourney.

    When did ANY US player knock out ARG much less play him?? I think you're confusing him with Tokido- who hasn't focused on ST (or even played much of it outside of tournaments in America only?) in many years now and I think the US player you're thinking of is not either of the Wolfe brothers but MrBob who has played in Japan for years. So I would call Tokido a baby bear. I don't think Noguchi has lost to an American player, that I can think of off the top of my head either. In any case, ARG is a noted step up from both Tokido and Noguchi and MAO is a lot closer to ARG. As for me, MAO doesn't have to try very hard at all to win, and neither do other big bears he can beat here. There are definitely other claw players here that aren't even known outside of Japan that seem just as deadly with that wall dive and close to MAO's level. When I played ARG a few times I think he was beating me with like two buttons. I'll just say I could probably take out Tokido, if he ever picks it up again. (Obviously, I'd beat them all, but I played online and that screwed me up and ST isn't a priority. ;) )
    Therefore, US confidence was a result of actual experience with the "big bears" and not some irrational hubris. I can understand how you wouldn't be aware of these games since they weren't mentioned on SRK but that's why it's important to know all the facts.

    Here are some facts: Among 30 developed countries, the US ranks 25th in math, and 21st in science. In almost every category, we're behind.

    Except one.

    Confidence:
    youtube com watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg#t=48s

    (btw if you pause it at around 58 seconds, note which country is listed at the top of the list.)
    As for me, I acknowledge that I can't consistently match against a JP wall dive master unless I stop playing online. The claw mirror is so dependent on exact wall dive charge timing that my online-affected timing—a problem that I noted experiencing even back in SBO 2010 after 2 weeks of offline practice—is a deal breaker. All my whiffed jumps and kicks are testament to improper timing. Unfortunately, my location isn't the most conducive for offline practice. Nor is ST a priority for me at the moment to improve that or other aspects of my game. But I at least wanted to get some facts straight.

    For the record, I would like everyone to note that I am the best driver in the entire world and of all time, just in case anyone had any doubts. However due to the restrictive barriers to entry in professional racing, I have decided to focus on ST at this time. And I still cannot beat many players in Japan and I don't really have any excuse.[/quote]
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Mr.D, what he means is that in the corner Claw does not have a cross up game. You can wall dive all you want in sector 1 and sector 2 and nothing happens, the opponent only needs hold back and he can block wall dive all day. Wall dive doesn't get more dangerous, quite the opposite. Of course, that's where Izuna drop comes into play, but it's risky as many characters have good AA that will hit before Claw gets close enough to Izuna. DeeJay standing MP, Shoto standing LP and HP, and other moves like those will hit him. Going behind the opponent for a sector 3 hit is impossible in the corner, that's why Damdai's main anti-Claw strategy is to work the corner to his favor using O.Ken, who has a fast DP with invulnerability all the way up and the fierce DP having good horizontal range. Claw has no choice but to attack from the front, jumping over fireballs and risking a DP. I think on a better day, Damdai would have done better against MAO. Maybe not win, but definitely better. MAO got him to the center of the stage and that's when he starting killing Damdai's game, because Damdai had to guess which side to DP since he didn't have the corner to protect him anymore.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I'm not quite sure what you're saying... I think we all agree that the wall dive is a ridiculously powerful move in any case. If you are saying it is even more ridiculous in the corner, I don't doubt it! While cornering yourself against claw might help with the wall dive (in reducing his Sectors to only one, making it possible to consistently block without having to GUESS), other problems crop up just as quickly. So if there's some nuance(s) of the wall dive near the corner making the move even MORE complex, enlighten us by all means.

    Yes, I was referring to wall dives being more powerful near the corner due to multiple side switching. If you know exactly where your opponent's midpoint is, you can cross back and forth and mess up inputs further (but there's a fine line to doing it so that it doesn't help the opponent more easily pull off a reversal). That's why the sector system comes with constraints. I'm certain MAO knew about this situation but he just wanted to keep things simple for his explanation.

    Nobody I've played in the US or Japan can stop my wall dives near the corner, but that's also a tough spot to score a knockdown. There are counters even there for shotos that I've been able to pull off at times but they may be too difficult to perform consistently compared to just blocking. I was surprised at MAO's wall dives because he was able to nail them mid-screen and no US shoto player seemed to have a consistent answer. I'm not sure if he has particular timing, positioning, and/or something else, but avoiding reversal OS hasn't been something I've been able to do with my knockdown wall dives.

    In the corner, wall dives are useless against most characters. In addition to what Moonchilde mentioned, there are guaranteed punishments, but they differ depending on the corner.
    When did ANY US player knock out ARG much less play him??

    It was one of the pre-SBO team tourneys during the US team's trip last year. If I recall, it was either immortal or riz0ne who defeated ARG in a surprise to everyone. I heard you met up with the gang during their visit so feel free to ask them yourself if you need further details. Knowing that might help explain why I think your classifications don't make much sense and why US players thought they had a fair chance against MAO until they played him. Casuals don't mean much but if we consider that JP players play similarly as they do in tourneys (i.e. much less sandbagging than here), then every US player who played your other "big bears" in casuals found MAO in casuals to be much more difficult.
    Here are some facts: Among 30 developed countries, the US ranks 25th in math, and 21st in science. In almost every category, we're behind.

    I don't dispute that, but I'm not sure how that relates to ST or specific individuals. For example, the US has the most wins for the Nobel Prize in Physics and all the other physical fields. Does that indicate the cream of the crop in physics is in the US? And does that suddenly translate into ST ability?

    Anyway, you misinterpreted my last paragraph. I'm not saying I've ever had the ability to beat MAO or Tokido—who NKI once said was the top claw mirror specialist in Japan no doubt thanks to his wall dive timing and positioning. I was just explaining why the mirror would continue to be one of my most difficult offline matches no matter how much I practiced on GGPO.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I don't remember any of the guys I met up with last year ever saying that ARG lost to an American player. I could be wrong but in any case yes, we did meet and we played right before they flew back. (After confirming he's ok since Sandy, I asked Damdai to be sure but haven't gotten a reply back yet.)

    While you may (or may not) be good at doing wall dives, I am not convinced you're anywhere near the Japanese level. I mean I could say, between us, I'm undefeated and never, ever lost to you, not even once. I didn't mention Nobel Peace prizes, I was pointing out the difference between "facts" vs "confidence" where the US ranks low in one, and high in the other. I don't think I misinterpreted your last paragraph- I was agreeing about ever having the ability to beat MAO, I was just saying that it doesn't matter whether GGPO screwed up your timing or not. Maybe it's due to GGPO, maybe due to something you don't know. Right now, you don't really know what you don't know so you can't say for sure what would happen if it weren't for GGPO's effect. In order to find out for sure, maybe you could become the hunter in the woods, and go hunt down all those bears in Japan. But you never know, you could do that, chase one down and think you have a little baby bear cornered, but then all of a sudden, you turn right around and run screaming from it. How could that possibly happen? You never know. The big mother bear is standing behind it, and accommodating for the GGPO effect didn't help.

    btw Let's please continue non-TRUST stuff in another thread (and link to these posts from there).
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    Mrdhalsim, please check my latest post on that xup thread if you havent already, i go into detail about the frameskip issue.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    (After confirming he's ok since Sandy, I asked Damdai to be sure but haven't gotten a reply back yet.)

    damdai is tied up in my basemenmt, thats why he ahsnt replied to you. ill tgell jim you saifdhia


    stupidity-alert-man-gets-robbed-and-tied-up-with-playstation-cord-2.jpg
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    Right now, you don't really know what you don't know so you can't say for sure what would happen if it weren't for GGPO's effect. In order to find out for sure, maybe you could become the hunter in the woods, and go hunt down all those bears in Japan. But you never know, you could do that, chase one down and think you have a little baby bear cornered, but then all of a sudden, you turn right around and run screaming from it. How could that possibly happen? You never know. The big mother bear is standing behind it, and accommodating for the GGPO effect didn't help.


    1331747663_bear_playing_with_himself.gif
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    lol
    <garyangel> ceks,cani,robbiers,yito all mexico players dont know where kyouya
    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    While you may (or may not) be good at doing wall dives, I am not convinced you're anywhere near the Japanese level.

    I agree that it's not certain how well I'm performing wall dives. Based on results, I'd say MAO is clearly doing something better in mid-screen scenarios. I'm just saying mine are good enough that in certain situations, nobody in the world can stop them.

    I brought up Nobel Prizes to illustrate how your analogy about confidence vs. skill in science for little kids doesn't consider at all the skill in science for top level scientists. US kids may be confident about science because we have the world's highest rewarded scientists here, even if the majority of people aren't any good in science. I was showing how the "facts" you pointed out only show a limited perspective that could easily be viewed in an opposite manner (e.g. that confidence comes from national pride in top level ability), not unlike your perspective on ST.

    As for the claw mirror, sure, there could always be another factor than online charge timing. But again, that wasn't my point. My point was that even if I knew everything, charge timing is so critical of a point in that specific matchup that I still couldn't consistently win. MAO's play should easily show the fundamental importance of fast wall dives to you, even if he has other tools in his repertoire.

    As for the comparison between you and me, the problem with your analogy is that we've never played in any form at all. I would gladly mm you offline even in my current state but I suspect you don't have any plans to return to the US for an ST tourney and you consider claw too difficult for your main anyway. I'm not sure if I made this clear but back in 2010, I already played the JP folks you refer to as apex predators in casuals. There were lion kings that had an edge on me and tiger moms that crushed me, but there were also mama bears that I matched blow for blow, alpha wolves that had trouble against me, and crocodile ancients that I bludgeoned.

    I had over a 10-win streak at Mikado during the packed Wed. session the week of SBO 2010—which is how I discovered the way Mikado links its machines up for freeplay. Now, I don't think casuals mean much, even in serious-play-all-the-time Japan, but in light of tourney results elsewhere, I don't see why you're so quick to dismiss US players. Peg us down a notch or 2 under our Japanese brethren after this Evo, fine, but us old eagles are still dangerous to all but the wildest animal mothers.

    Anyway, since you started the non-TRUST talk in this topic, I'd rather finish it here this time around. I suppose if there's one thing we can both support, it's the TRUST tool.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    I heard back from Damdai. He said the only time they met up with ARG, he thinks the only person to beat him was YuuVega in the tournament and mentioned no wins by any US player against him period.

    re: Nobel Prizes, it ain't just the little kids, many of whom have grown up: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/opinion/26tue2.html?_r=0

    Ah, you found me out-- yes, I made the statement about never losing to you while never having played you in the first place. I felt it was apt to express it that way for your view about how well you think you'd do against Japanese players, with the same veil of supposed reasons as to why. and, although I'm no mm fan in general, esp vs. a claw player but to prove the point, I will see your mm proposal, and RAISE you a mm proposal! I don't imagine you have any plans to return to Japan for an ST tourney or the next XMANIA but if you decide to show up to the next one, we can come to some arrangement.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    Is damdai sure they only met one time? For example, I would think they saw each other at SBO as well. Was there no east vs. west style line tournament that they played against each other in? If not, then I'll ask my contact later. If it was just a casual match win against ARG that I heard so excitedly about (that broke a win streak or something?), then I'll definitely apologize for the mistake since I agree that casual matches aren't a big deal.

    As for that report on skilled workers, OK, but it still only addresses regular folks. I brought up Nobel Prizes because we were discussing some of the best comp around, not regular joes. And amongst the very best scientific talent, the US is still on top.

    As for your comment about playing me, I already stated how it doesn't match what I'm claiming. We haven't played at all, not even online. But I've played the Japanese players I'm referring to in-person, even if it wasn't in-tourney. Playing and not playing is a black-and-white difference in expectations. As I've repeated numerous times now, that experience is the whole reason behind US confidence, and not just mine either.

    I have no current plans to return to Japan but if I do, I'll be glad to accept our mm and show you my perspective. How badly do you expect me to fare against the mama bears by the way? Since Evo, I won't say I'm near equal but I'd be willing to bet that except against 5 or so of the toughest players, I won't lose worse than 5-3 to the rest of Tokyo's best players. I believe I'd win some too but I'm not willing to bet that except on a case-by-case basis being as out-of-shape as I am today. I don't think losing 5-3 is very impressive with claw (and that MAO could certainly do better) but if you're expecting something like 5-1 or worse because of a perceived difference in skill and are willing to put serious money behind that belief, as well as on our mm, then we might be able to work a deal out for a visit perhaps as early as this January.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Here was my question to Damdai: "btw did any of you guys that came to Japan for SBO (or any other time) ever play ARG? Did anyone actually win against him? Ganelon claims so in the forum." and here was his reply: "I only remember him at one Nakano Royal event we went to. I think Yuu Vega peaced him out of the tournament."

    When adjusted for per capita, the US doesn't even make the top 10 laureates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Nobel_laureates_per_capita Also, you can win a Nobel Prize and still have a list of people you are trying to kill. An American managed to do that already so what does that tell you about Nobel Prizes.

    I will put serious money behind this belief that I'd win in a mm against you: 100 yen. I don't think you'd beat any of the mama bears. If you want me to pass along any particular mm challenges to Japanese players, just let me know and I'll put the word out.
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I'll ask further on that ARG point before repeating it again then. I doubt I could beat the mama bears now without some hardcore practice either, hence why the match spread is in their favor.

    I'm not a fan of calling anybody out for a money match without significant reason, hence why my $200+ challenge for the past 2 Evos was directed not to anyone in particular but rather a challenge at large to the US. But if I ever qualify for SBO again, I'll definitely call on you for some modest (<=$20) mms to any bear who wants to play.

    EDIT: I asked around and it appears I was wrong. The US has never beaten ARG (or any of the 3 big bear JP claws) in-tourney. The win I heard about last year only happened in regular casuals. And I would agree that's not the best predictor of serious play. I strive to relay accurate info and base my opinions on such so my apologies for the confusion.
  • SorwahSorwah Joined: Posts: 889
    Program looks nice.
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Fluxcore has a great report about that "block cross-up by going to neutral" thing using scripts:
    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/blocking-xups-everytime.169538/page-3#post-7691142
  • yogaboyyogaboy Joined: Posts: 65
    mrdhalsim, thx for such a well done training tool.

    Is the zip in the google code project the latest version? Is there any place where you push the branches and updates?

    It'd be easier to contribute if there's an open repository to manage issues and new patches. The google code repository with a slight different setup would be enough. Thanks!
    Easiest solution that would please almost everyone -> a decent port. That is, the DC version of ST running on a PS4/XBOX.
    Difficult part -> get capcom involved. Whoever achieves that gets the golden egg and solves the problem for once and for all. Period ;)
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,732
    Off top (or on topic) why do people still call it "wall dive"? d,u+p wall dive. d,u+k is barcelona attack...
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    @yogaboy Yes, that is the latest version, but no, I haven't pushed out updates-- but very glad to hear of any interest. I'm open to your suggestions for the google code page!

    @Jion_Wansu yeah I guess it's just called "wall dive" due to tradition from the arcade days and everyone had to make up local "house names" for the moves. (and in the earlier games, his wall dive had him stay on the back wall for a few seconds before coming down.) Actually I have a book here and incidentally, the official names (according to THIS particular book, anyway) are "Flying Barcelona Attack" for the wall dive (charge down, then up+Kick), and "Izuna Drop" for his super's normal (charge down, then up+Punch). btw there are all kinds of crazy names for his normals too, like "Slam Claw" for his standing mid punch, "Round Slider" for his slide, "Dragon Whip" for his crouching mid kick, and "Lizard Whip" for his light kick.

    btw these srk forums are still slow as molasses for me- hopefully this post makes it....
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    @yogaboy Yes, that is the latest version, but no, I haven't pushed out updates-- but very glad to hear of any interest. I'm open to your suggestions for the google code page!

    @Jion_Wansu yeah I guess it's just called "wall dive" due to tradition from the arcade days and everyone had to make up local "house names" for the moves. (and in the earlier games, his wall dive had him stay on the back wall for a few seconds before coming down.) Actually I have a book here and incidentally, the official names (according to THIS particular book, anyway) are "Flying Barcelona Attack" for the wall dive (charge down, then up+Kick), and "Izuna Drop" for his super's normal (charge down, then up+Punch). btw there are all kinds of crazy names for his normals too, like "Slam Claw" for his standing mid punch, "Round Slider" for his slide, "Dragon Whip" for his crouching mid kick, and "Lizard Whip" for his light kick.

    btw these srk forums are still slow as molasses for me- hopefully this post makes it....
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    @yogaboy Yes, that is the latest version, but no, I haven't pushed out updates-- but very glad to hear of any interest. I'm open to your suggestions for the google code page!

    @Jion_Wansu yeah I guess it's just called "wall dive" due to tradition from the arcade days and everyone had to make up local "house names" for the moves. (and in the earlier games, his wall dive had him stay on the back wall for a few seconds before coming down.) Actually I have a book here and incidentally, the official names (according to THIS particular book, anyway) are "Flying Barcelona Attack" for the wall dive (charge down, then up+Kick), and "Izuna Drop" for his super's normal (charge down, then up+Punch). btw there are all kinds of crazy names for his normals too, like "Slam Claw" for his standing mid punch, "Round Slider" for his slide, "Dragon Whip" for his crouching mid kick, and "Lizard Whip" for his light kick.

    btw these srk forums are still slow as molasses for me- hopefully this post makes it....
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,712
    Holy quadruple post! Yeah, the SRK forums have been garbage for the last few months. Admins are testing out new server options, so hopefully when that kicks in, these slowdowns and errors go away. I'm guessing increased site traffic is messing things up for SRK crew.

    I'll be trying out this Trust program whenever I can. I'm trying to find old tools to help new players learn specific aspects about ST, and I think this program seems to be the perfect fit. Thanks for this XSPR!
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    XSPR has given me a write-up and explanation on TRUST, which you can read here.

    Since this thread got resurrected, I noticed that I never got around to moving XSPR's writeup over to the STR site. You can now find it here:

    http://www.strevival.com/strategy/trust/
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • delatroydelatroy My Blue Boat Joined: Posts: 293
    Hi XSPR! Let me join others in thanking you for creating such an excellent tool!

    I have an LUA question that you might be good enough to help me regarding if it's possible to execute both one and two player commands at the same time. To demonstrate what I'm trying to do let's consider the case where we have player 2 (Ken) jump in with medium kick and have player 1 (Dhalsim) do his super to defend.

    I have the following script:
    &79 W10-
    L.UL.W25.5, # Ken jumping, waiting 25 frames & landing medium kick

    +
    L.DL.D.DR.R.L.DL.D.DR.R1.W10. # Dhalsim's super

    W190!

    It works fine in respect that it will successfully execute both "moves" (super for P1 and air attack for P2) as intended however the timing is a problem. With Dhalsim, I want for him to execute late, almost when Ken lands, however because Ken waits 25 frames after jumping before pressing medium kick, this 25 frame delay affects when Dhalsim's super will start and hence Dhalsim gets hit and has missed his super.

    Generally my question is about how we can better control time for both players in a way that's independent of each other. Is it possible to execute commands in parallel instead of sequentially somehow?
  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Hi Delatroy, yeah what you want to do is definitely possible (any input you want for any given frame, across a sequence of frames, basically). I haven't tried out your scenario just yet to confirm though (hopefully it follows convention of having the gamestate start from start-of-round positions so we can recreate it easier without having to share savestates?). Anyway to better choreograph P1's inputs along with P2's inputs, use the alternative notation that uses angle brackets. So if you want P1 and P2 to do stuff at the same time, start with a

    < and write what P1 should do here, then a forward slash / and put P2's inputs here and then closing angle bracket >

    like that. The basic notation has you use + to indicate P1's inputs and - to switch to P2's but as you mention there's a delay. Don't use +/- with this alternative way.

    Sorry for the quadruple post! It kept telling telling me it didn't get posted at all. I'd like to delete those extras but it's usually timing out for me.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,712
    Since this thread got resurrected, I noticed that I never got around to moving XSPR's writeup over to the STR site. You can now find it here:

    http://www.strevival.com/strategy/trust/

    Awesome! Now I can direct newbie ST players to this section of STR.

    Btw Kuroppi, you have a repeat paragraph in the TRUST section of the website. Might want to delete it:

    TRUST is a program designed to address this gap. It stands for T.raining R.egimen U.nder S.uper T.urbo, and lets you customize your own training mode particular to any given scenario that you want to practice. It even comes with a number of lessons built-in, which offer a kind of "missing manual" that never came with the game itself.

    Maj wrote about a similar concept here that reminds us how awkward it was to learn a fighting game in the first place.
    Sorry for the quadruple post! It kept telling telling me it didn't get posted at all. I'd like to delete those extras but it's usually timing out for me.

    It happens a lot on SRK nowadays.
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    Awesome! Now I can direct newbie ST players to this section of STR.

    Btw Kuroppi, you have a repeat paragraph in the TRUST section of the website. Might want to delete it:

    TRUST is a program designed to address this gap. It stands for T.raining R.egimen U.nder S.uper T.urbo, and lets you customize your own training mode particular to any given scenario that you want to practice. It even comes with a number of lessons built-in, which offer a kind of "missing manual" that never came with the game itself.

    Maj wrote about a similar concept here that reminds us how awkward it was to learn a fighting game in the first place.

    Thanks for catching that. I went ahead and fixed it.
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • yogaboyyogaboy Joined: Posts: 65
    @mrdhalsim: I didn't get the notification of your answers and I have just seen all the new messages in this thread now. My bad.
    I can help you setup the repository. Let me send you a private message and we can work on it outside of this thread.

    @kuroppi: Congrats for the new strategy section!!! The link 'TRUST thread on SRK' in the article is broken. Also, it might be convinient to put the direct link to the installable somewhere (http://code.google.com/p/trust-xspr/downloads/list) so readers don't have to jump through so many pages to get there.
    Easiest solution that would please almost everyone -> a decent port. That is, the DC version of ST running on a PS4/XBOX.
    Difficult part -> get capcom involved. Whoever achieves that gets the golden egg and solves the problem for once and for all. Period ;)
  • yogaboyyogaboy Joined: Posts: 65
    @kuroppi: It seems everything is fixed. You were so fast that maybe it was fixed before I posted :D You rock!
    Easiest solution that would please almost everyone -> a decent port. That is, the DC version of ST running on a PS4/XBOX.
    Difficult part -> get capcom involved. Whoever achieves that gets the golden egg and solves the problem for once and for all. Period ;)
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    @kuroppi: It seems everything is fixed. You were so fast that maybe it was fixed before I posted :D You rock!

    I just happened to be working on something on the website when you sent me that message so I was able to fix it right away.

    Yeah, there's not a whole lot in the strategy section yet. I blame MuffinMan and Papasi for that. ;)
    Shhh... ST in da house!

    www.strevival.com | STR Facebook | Twitter
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    I blame wordpress, lol.
    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
    OhNuki: Real men play ST!!
    James Chen: there is something special about playing ST on a cab. It just feels so goooooood.
    Super Turbo Hitbox & safe jump guide http://www.strevival.com/hitbox/
  • jactiafjactiaf Down, but Never out Joined: Posts: 31
    edited February 2013
    @mrdhalsim, I'm thrilled and elated that TRUST exists because now I can start working on getting better at options selects. I read the TRUST article on STR and I downloaded the program, but I'm struggling to get it working as Everytime I tried executing a lesson a new window popped up saying that it was loading but then it just disappeared in a matter of seconds. I should also note that I'm using windows 7. Can anyone point me in the right direction so that I can get the ball rolling with TRUST? Much appreciated, Thanks!
    Post edited by jactiaf on
    -- He wears you down, you get bored, frustrated, do something stupid, and he's got ya

    -- It's not that I have no honor, I do/ it's just I play with No Restraints with the No Honor Crew
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