Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    petran79 wrote: »
    other games, even SF4 and 3S, give you more gimmicks, like parries, reversals, guard cancels, multiple supers, cancel moves, air control etc

    but in SF2T you're on your own. till super bar is full, it is already too late.
    game is easier for beginners, but regarding strategy involved, it is perhaps the hardest.

    It just seems like your overall approach to ST just needs refinement. All of the moves you listed aren't really there for beginning level players. They're added layers of game mechanics for the more intermediate player, and definitely not something beginners will learn or utilize.

    ST is difficult because most people don't want to play such a basic game. Usually less is more in ST, and it places a much stronger emphasis on spacing and defense, as opposed to other games, where you can basically play as if you have no idea how to block and still do fairly well. The actual mechanics are amazingly simple, the strategy of which the majority of ST players are more than happy to share and discuss, and the low amount of matchups makes it much more approachable in terms of being able to learn the game without devoting 8 hours of your life to it every day.
  • petran79petran79 Here comes an old challenger Joined: Posts: 1,913
    the difficulty of ST for beginners is that, in contrast to SF4, it adds tighter controls. A shoryuken move there is more difficult to perform than other SF games. In the original SF2 it is even harder, same for grappling moves.I think SFA2 has also a difficult shoryuken move.

    Playing the game on an arcade stick gives me the impression that this is one of the most difficult fighters to control.
    While I like grapplers like Tizoc, Hugo or even Condor, I really hate choosing ST Zangief due to control difficulty.

    while it seems basic, the control are actually difficult. the newer fighters move more smoothly and with more frames of animation.
    blocking is possible, but the tough controls really nullify your attack options.

    mastering the controls of that game would give you an advantage in other fighters, but not the opposite.
    regarding attacking, this game gives me the greatest tension and difficulty.
    too slow!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    petran79 wrote: »
    the difficulty of ST for beginners is that, in contrast to SF4, it adds tighter controls. A shoryuken move there is more difficult to perform than other SF games. In the original SF2 it is even harder, same for grappling moves.I think SFA2 has also a difficult shoryuken move.

    Playing the game on an arcade stick gives me the impression that this is one of the most difficult fighters to control.
    While I like grapplers like Tizoc, Hugo or even Condor, I really hate choosing ST Zangief due to control difficulty.

    while it seems basic, the control are actually difficult. the newer fighters move more smoothly and with more frames of animation.
    blocking is possible, but the tough controls really nullify your attack options.

    mastering the controls of that game would give you an advantage in other fighters, but not the opposite.
    regarding attacking, this game gives me the greatest tension and difficulty.

    True, the inputs for special moves and supers are much more difficult, but they were designed that way. Special moves were originally power moves, that were often kept a secret, and were supposed to be difficult to perform due to how good they were. It was made easier over time though. A2 does not have a difficult uppercut motion at all. It's just difficult to do on reversal due to being unable to neg edge it.

    Gief requires a lot of patience and practice to control properly, but this seems somewhat intentional, as the SPD is an extremely powerful move (doing 24-30% damage), has fantastic range, and fast startup. But I can tell you from experience that if you ask the right questions, and put in a bit of practice, you can learn to SPD reliably in your setups. It's difficult to do it while standing, but far easier to do it if you buffer it off of a jump attack or cr.jabs. I am admittedly terrible at 360 motions, but even I can nail them with relatively mild practice.

    It requires a complete shift in mentality to play this game. You can't approach as you would other fighters, including Alpha, 3s, cvs2, or sf4, because movement options takes a backseat to proper spacing and strategy. Movement is limited, so you really have to think about how to use movement safely and properly, alongside other strong fundamental skill.

    Not to mention the SF2 community is pretty helpful when it comes to answering questions and offering tips and advice. We're pretty open about that kind of stuff.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,623
    edited June 2014
    To be fair to Petran his first 2 matches were against Balcork(Hell balcork wasn't even playing his main and still stomped almost everbody) and Spinalblood(Who would easily and by a wide margin be the single best player in europe if he played the proper version of his character) which if it was anyone's first introduction to the game would be intimidating as fuck because they are both scary good .

    http://fightplay.fr/tournoi.php?num=1677 (This site is weird the pools go away after a while).

    I know that a lot of people think that instantly being put up against really good players is good for new people but while there is a lot to learn from it can be very discouraging being just bashed into the ground.
    There comes a point where the difference is too great for you to learn anything and you simply turn into a punching bag.

    I personally think you should keep going and if you want to keep going with cammy there is a french player that goes by Max and a bunch of numbers if i remember correctly that plays a really good one you could try to spectate and ask some questions. Not everyone is those two and if you keep going and try playing against a lot of different players you will surely improve.

    Use that tournament as a measuring stick as they are fairly frequent usually atleast once a week and see how far you can get in the next one and so on.

    edit found his name: Max31
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    Shari wrote: »
    To be fair to Petran his first 2 matches were against Balcork(Hell balcork wasn't even playing his main and still stomped almost everbody) and Spinalblood(Who would easily and by a wide margin be the single best player in europe if he played the proper version of his character) which if it was anyone's first introduction to the game would be intimidating as fuck because they are both scary good .

    http://fightplay.fr/tournoi.php?num=1677 (This site is weird the pools go away after a while).

    I know that a lot of people think that instantly being put up against really good players is good for new people but while there is a lot to learn from it can be very discouraging being just bashed into the ground.
    There comes a point where the difference is too great for you to learn anything and you simply turn into a punching bag.

    I personally think you should keep going and if you want to keep going with cammy there is a french player that goes by Max and a bunch of numbers if i remember correctly that plays a really good one you could try to spectate and ask some questions. Not everyone is those two and if you keep going and try playing against a lot of different players you will surely improve.

    Use that tournament as a measuring stick as they are fairly frequent usually atleast once a week and see how far you can get in the next one and so on.

    edit found his name: Max31

    This just highlights the importance of seeding your tournament. You should always seed. Top players reap benefits by gaining BYE priority over others, beginners and intermediates benefit by having a less stacked first round, and everyone benefits by having more exciting matches occur in the 3rd round and above.

    And I agree that people should learn by playing against other similarly skilled players first. This is why I always recommend finding a rival within your scene to help level each other up. As you both play each other and improve, you improve as a unit, which in turn helps others. This is why I'm a big proponent of never withholding advice or information, since it only hurts the scene as a whole, along with the individual player.
  • petran79petran79 Here comes an old challenger Joined: Posts: 1,913
    Shari wrote: »
    To be fair to Petran his first 2 matches were against Balcork(Hell balcork wasn't even playing his main and still stomped almost everbody) and Spinalblood(Who would easily and by a wide margin be the single best player in europe if he played the proper version of his character) which if it was anyone's first introduction to the game would be intimidating as fuck because they are both scary good .

    http://fightplay.fr/tournoi.php?num=1677 (This site is weird the pools go away after a while).

    I know that a lot of people think that instantly being put up against really good players is good for new people but while there is a lot to learn from it can be very discouraging being just bashed into the ground.
    There comes a point where the difference is too great for you to learn anything and you simply turn into a punching bag.

    I personally think you should keep going and if you want to keep going with cammy there is a french player that goes by Max and a bunch of numbers if i remember correctly that plays a really good one you could try to spectate and ask some questions. Not everyone is those two and if you keep going and try playing against a lot of different players you will surely improve.

    Use that tournament as a measuring stick as they are fairly frequent usually atleast once a week and see how far you can get in the next one and so on.

    edit found his name: Max31


    yes, exactly that experience was intimidating.
    were I a complete beginner and had lost to him, I wouldnt mind, since I wouldnt understand what was happening anyway.
    But at this stage I can grasp some things and this was really an experience I had never seen before.

    ironically the day before, Balcork was playing against a player named Afro Legends Jr. Dont know if it was the same player as AfroLegends, but he was beaten 40 games straight (his Vega vs Honda).
    Afro then switched to Cammy and dominated even more for a while.

    it felt like playing football with a professional team. even at lower ranked leagues, you'll loose 25-1
    since now I injured my shoulder due to tendonitis, I'll return at fighters probably after summer holidays anyway.....
    too slow!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    Definitely not the same player as Afro Legends. That's kinda weird tbh.
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,125
    Anyone know who that "afro legends jr" is?
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    GGPO/Fightcade: x64
  • KYO84KYO84 Riddle Solver Joined: Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    If I wanted to run a local tournament for this game, what would be the best way to set it up? I can't afford a Super Gun, would an emulator on a laptop work?
    "Better that we die on our feet than live on our knees!" Magneto
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    KYO84 wrote: »
    If I wanted to run a local tournament for this game, what would be the best way to set it up? I can't afford a Super Gun, would an emulator on a laptop work?

    Yup. Shmupmame or Groovymame with an ST emulator can run pretty close to arcade-perfect with the right speed settings. I highly recommend it for local gatherings.
  • blood spit nightblood spit night Joined: Posts: 96
    eltrouble wrote: »
    KYO84 wrote: »
    If I wanted to run a local tournament for this game, what would be the best way to set it up? I can't afford a Super Gun, would an emulator on a laptop work?

    Yup. Shmupmame or Groovymame with an ST emulator can run pretty close to arcade-perfect with the right speed settings. I highly recommend it for local gatherings.

    no
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    eltrouble wrote: »
    KYO84 wrote: »
    If I wanted to run a local tournament for this game, what would be the best way to set it up? I can't afford a Super Gun, would an emulator on a laptop work?

    Yup. Shmupmame or Groovymame with an ST emulator can run pretty close to arcade-perfect with the right speed settings. I highly recommend it for local gatherings.

    no

    Yup. Prove me wrong if you feel they aren't close to arcade perfect without having to buy or build a supergun.
  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,710
    This just made my night:

    ochunrage.png

    So back story, I challenged him, he was playing O.Ryu. I beat him one match, he played again, and first round, I got him locked in tick throws, and he ragequit.

    He sends me a new challenge, and the above ensues. Then he leaves out of the game, and sends "ggs" in the lobby.

    I guess that's the Japanese equivalent of beating me senseless because throwing is cheap. :coffee:
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV | CFN: MissingPerson GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
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  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,824
    edited September 2014
    Hey guys, I was checking out some music sites and found this short documentary on videogame music's influence on western artists, halfway into the video they go straight to Street Fighter 2's music and it's influence, it has some neat stuff and if you're a fan of Flying Lotus, Thundercat, Oh No, Dizzee Rascal, Ladyhawke, etc... you may find something interesting here (also there's a cool story in there from the composer about how Blanka's theme was conceived). It's episode 3.

    redbullmusicacademy.com/magazine/diggin-in-the-carts
    CFN ID - PenguinShivers

    MJ|Shivers.
  • 7 5 07 5 0 Joined: Posts: 446
    night Thailand
    10421361_682182191878656_1880034998275446250_n.jpg?oh=107ddb8125f1ab5f3ed9f6c1f907c219&oe=54C4579C
  • MizukiMizuki ayy lmao Joined: Posts: 3,200
    Hi if any of your turderinos use IRC in the year 2014, I made a ST/SF2 channel over at irc dot mizuumi dot net called #superbturbob
    www.twitter.com/thenipahhut
  • UncleGaryUncleGary Joined: Posts: 185
    I really want to get into ST; are any of the online communities (HDR, GGPO, Supercade) active, like you can get on and find a game, or are they more just for king of GGPO and events?
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,623
    GGPO is pretty active atleast in europe at early mornings and after 16 gmt+1.

    40ish people on atm.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,125
    lol. Love the shadow of dead bison there. Crazy throw range.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    GGPO/Fightcade: x64
  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,710
    That's pretty ridiculous.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV | CFN: MissingPerson GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
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  • himesama10khimesama10k Joined: Posts: 2
    UncleGary wrote: »
    I really want to get into ST; are any of the online communities (HDR, GGPO, Supercade) active, like you can get on and find a game, or are they more just for king of GGPO and events?

    i play very often on GGPO and never usually find myself waiting longer than 5 min for someone to match with. when i do, they are usually very friendly as well. on supercade, it's mostly third strike that people seem to play from the little bit i've used it.

    GGPO works really well, i've been having matches with my brother in thailand and they've been surprisingly smooth. im the US and most players in japan seem to be pretty lag-free as well. the way GGPO works, i don't really understand, but it does a good job of hiding the lag that must be there. i'd recommend it
  • BattosaiBattosai Joined: Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited December 2014
    ggs to fart catcher at AE though u had input problems still great challenge and fun vs your old ken.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,569
    Battosai are those your cars? Which kind are they? For me, I've been doing well against Akuma players on GGPO. Seems like they don't know how to use Akuma to make them broken or I just that damn good.
  • luckyjimluckyjim Joined: Posts: 116
    Gotta say it kinda grinds my gears that Evo has an old Smash game in their official lineup but doesn't have anything for ST. Maybe it's because kuroppi and everyone else involved with ToL/ToL2 did such an amazing job, but with him stepping down it would've made it easier to integrate back into Evo...

    Regardless, I know there's some stuff in the works and some Japanese presence this year assuming there's an event, so I'm planning to make it out to whatever there is. It's the only reason I'll come south of the border ;)
  • hanasuhanasu Joined: Posts: 130
    The problem with ST at large events isn't lack of effort, it's setups. No one can afford to have arcade perfect ST at events larger than like 50 people. If you hold it on HDR classic people won't come.
    _______________________________________________________________
    STRevival

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  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,125
    hanasu wrote: »
    If you hold it on HDR classic people won't come.

    Ugh. We have no one to blame but ourselves (and Capcom for not giving us a digital SF2 compilation release yet). Shit, we could even get a bunch of Dreamcasts and Toodle's disks together and lend out DC adapters/Cthulhu sticks if that would assuage the "no CPS2 no play" whiners.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    GGPO/Fightcade: x64
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    hanasu wrote: »
    The problem with ST at large events isn't lack of effort, it's setups. No one can afford to have arcade perfect ST at events larger than like 50 people. If you hold it on HDR classic people won't come.

    I agree with this assessment. Having the standard be arcade-perfect ST is a BIG issue for TOs. We're lucky to have them at Evo, but this primarily due to the fact that we have a lot of TOs in California and in Vegas who have access to this equipment. The rest of the country is largely boned. VERY few people are willing to drop $500+ for arcade ST.
    hanasu wrote: »
    If you hold it on HDR classic people won't come.

    Ugh. We have no one to blame but ourselves (and Capcom for not giving us a digital SF2 compilation release yet). Shit, we could even get a bunch of Dreamcasts and Toodle's disks together and lend out DC adapters/Cthulhu sticks if that would assuage the "no CPS2 no play" whiners.

    Even then, there's the issue of gathering enough DC setups and sticks (the main problem) to hold ST. This is largely why the Undamned options are so attractive. We can let the players bring whatever modern sticks they prefer, which puts less stress on everyone involved.


  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,710
    Streaming right now.

    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV | CFN: MissingPerson GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
    Twitter: JTMMissingPersn | Instagram: jtmmissingperson | Twitch: twitch.tv/missingpersonsrk
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,660
    The wiki mentions that you can choose a glitched version of claw who can store Scarlet Terror charge. How? Press strat when you spend the coin and keep it pressed? Choose the character with start, or what?
    Steam:Coffeeling | Fightcade: Coffeeling-FIN
    Xrd: Sol | ST: Claw, O.Sagat, O.Ryu | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
    Resource pack for learning fighting games and/or starting KOF13
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,125
    Komatik wrote: »
    The wiki mentions that you can choose a glitched version of claw who can store Scarlet Terror charge. How? Press strat when you spend the coin and keep it pressed? Choose the character with start, or what?

    That is for Hyper Street Fighter 2 (or Anniversary Edition/AE as it is also known). Before selecting the Super Turbo option, press and hold start and then press a button to select it. This will give you the unfixed (read: better) versions of Vega, Chun, and Honda.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    GGPO/Fightcade: x64
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,660
    #buffclaw keepo
    So this isn't a thing on the ST ROM, I take it? Is the default flip kick glitched or fixed in that?
    Steam:Coffeeling | Fightcade: Coffeeling-FIN
    Xrd: Sol | ST: Claw, O.Sagat, O.Ryu | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
    Resource pack for learning fighting games and/or starting KOF13
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,125
    Komatik wrote: »
    #buffclaw keepo
    So this isn't a thing on the ST ROM, I take it? Is the default flip kick glitched or fixed in that?

    There technically are ST ROM revisions that fix this, but I believe only the Dreamcast version has it. The DC version also lets you select the version of the game without the glitches fixed so it doesn't really matter.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    GGPO/Fightcade: x64
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,660
    Is it a thing in the Jap Fightcade rom?
    Steam:Coffeeling | Fightcade: Coffeeling-FIN
    Xrd: Sol | ST: Claw, O.Sagat, O.Ryu | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
    Resource pack for learning fighting games and/or starting KOF13
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,125
    edited September 2015
    No. All four Super Turbo arcade roms (World/Asia, North America/Europe, South America, and Japan) have access to the main character glitches: Honda/Chun storable super and ochio, Vega storable upkicks, First frame attacks connecting on characters blocking 50% of the time (mostly only useful to O.Ryu/O.Ken) and Ken/Sagat/Sim not being able to reversal super. Japan rom has the Gief neutral jumping headbutt causing instant stun, the World rom has the O.Gief HK Suplex reversal glitch, and the US rom (and maybe others??) has the O.Honda throw freeze glitch.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    GGPO/Fightcade: x64
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,569
    No. All four Super Turbo arcade roms (World/Asia, North America/Europe, South America, and Japan) have access to the main character glitches: Honda/Chun storable super and ochio, Vega storable upkicks, First frame attacks connecting on characters blocking 50% of the time (mostly only useful to O.Ryu/O.Ken) and Ken/Sagat/Sim not being able to reversal super. Japan rom has the Gief neutral jumping headbutt causing instant stun, the World rom has the O.Gief HK Suplex reversal glitch, and the US rom (and maybe others??) has the O.Honda throw freeze glitch.

    So that's what happened. I was playing as O Honda and he just froze in his throw animation kinda like Guile's statue in World Warrior. This happened like 8 or 9 years ago
  • luckyjimluckyjim Joined: Posts: 116
    No. All four Super Turbo arcade roms (World/Asia, North America/Europe, South America, and Japan) have access to the main character glitches: Honda/Chun storable super and ochio, Vega storable upkicks, First frame attacks connecting on characters blocking 50% of the time (mostly only useful to O.Ryu/O.Ken) and Ken/Sagat/Sim not being able to reversal super. Japan rom has the Gief neutral jumping headbutt causing instant stun, the World rom has the O.Gief HK Suplex reversal glitch, and the US rom (and maybe others??) has the O.Honda throw freeze glitch.

    I've encountered the O.Honda throw freeze glitch on Japanese and American boards, not sure about the world version/ROM.
  • SesshomaruSesshomaru Joined: Posts: 559
    does anyone still have the pre jump frames for each character?

    looking for old data but not available anymore:
    https://github.com/doctorguile/strevival/blob/master/hitbox/st-safejump/safejump.php
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,125
    edited November 2015
    Sesshomaru wrote: »
    does anyone still have the pre jump frames for each character?

    looking for old data but not available anymore:
    https://github.com/doctorguile/strevival/blob/master/hitbox/st-safejump/safejump.php

    The SRK ST wiki has 'em: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#The_Characters

    Edit: Uh, maybe it doesn't. Thought it did. That's odd.
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
    XBL: mr x64 | PSN: deadpool_zero | SFV: epistaxis64
    GGPO/Fightcade: x64
  • iWinWeDateiWinWeDate Whiff punish everything. Joined: Posts: 298

    wall dive vortex 0:53

    Is there legit no way around this shit? I hate gimmicks in any fighting game the better player can lose because they guessed wrong.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    They're powerful tools, especially Vega's, but in many cases not completely unstoppable. As usual, the general advice of "play perfect, don't get caught in them in the first place" applies here, but otherwise, I've got some notes:

    Honda's ochio mixups are strong if he's close. Most characters have tools to prevent Honda from getting that close, so usually the ochio is his way of winning very difficult matchups or expediting matchups he already wins via his very strong defensive tools and hands. The usually way to counter them is to use a strong reversal against the "tick" attempt, e.g. uppercutting the cr.jab or the jump in or whatever it is. In the corner, it's extremely strong, since he can repeat it again, but again the key is to counter throw or uppercut the tick.

    Hawk's throw loops are extremely powerful. Fortunately, only a handful of people actually know how to pull it off consistently, so it's not AS serious a threat at Honda or Vega's wall dives, which are often effective against beginner- or intermediate-level players. The best way to get out is to either bust out a lot of reversals to mess up their timing, or jump out depending on the character you use and the range at which they do the neutral jab. At max range, there's a small gap between the jab and the grab itself, which lets characters get out via a counter poke or jump or super or what have you. This is true of Dictator, as he has very few jumping frames, so he can jump out outside of corner traps.

    Vega's wall dives are always a problem. Fortunately, anyone with a decent reversal can get out if they have good execution and timing. There are several methods you can use to perform an autocorrect uppercut, depending on the direction in which Claw does the attack, but isn't a guaranteed out. Good general advice: just block. It's technically just a 50% effective ratio, so be sure to concentrate on your neutral game as well to prevent getting caught in the first place.
  • iWinWeDateiWinWeDate Whiff punish everything. Joined: Posts: 298
    Thanks for the help bro. So do frame perfect counter throws beat tick throws and command throws? Is losing the ability to tech throws worth playing Oken over Nken?
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    edited November 2015
    iWinWeDate wrote: »
    Thanks for the help bro. So do frame perfect counter throws beat tick throws and command throws? Is losing the ability to tech throws worth playing Oken over Nken?

    Throws don't have priority versus another throw. Whoever gets it out first (and if they're both in range), the first person gets the throw. This applies to both normal and command throws. Throws beat out meaty attacks. Also keep in mind that different characters have different ranges for throws, which is a big factor.

    But command throws have more active frames than normal throws, which is why they have a tendency to land more. Plus, most smart grapplers attempt tick throws at ranges where they know the opponent can't counterthrow, unless they're trying to bait someone or make a read on someone who has a good reversal to punish it.

    Losing the ability to tech throws is a big deal. Teching throws is a great, safe, and reliable way to get out of a bad situation at the cost of a little bit of life. It's not too hard to tech a throw on reaction either (at least offline).

    But O.Ken is demonstrably a better character than N.Ken. O.Ken has great priority on his low kick attacks, great jump in HK, the best uppercut in the game, and a very good fireball game. N.Ken is a solid character but relies heavily on closeup mixups to gain the advantage, an advantage he won't always get if he's being beaten in the neutral or zoned out. While I think N.Ken is an extremely fun character to play, and very rewarding to win with, O.Ken's generally higher up on the tier list because he's so much better at the neutral game and zoning game.

    But N.Ken is too much fun to play. O.Ken is boring in comparison but gets the job done.

    Also, you should hit up strevival.com/forums. It's where most of the community has gone to discuss ST publicly outside of private FB groups.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,660
    Also if you hate Claw's walldive bullshit, O.Ken is one of the better characters at shutting it down.
    Steam:Coffeeling | Fightcade: Coffeeling-FIN
    Xrd: Sol | ST: Claw, O.Sagat, O.Ryu | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
    Resource pack for learning fighting games and/or starting KOF13
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    Komatik wrote: »
    Also if you hate Claw's walldive bullshit, O.Ken is one of the better characters at shutting it down.

    Somewhat true. If Claw ever attempts to go to the wall while you're standing, both New and Old Ken can just walk up fierce uppercut as a punish.

    That being said, haven't played as both Kens versus MAO, he is very adept at performing the crossup in such a way that it'll eat your inputs if you attempt to do a regular uppercut. I don't think O.Ken actually beats Claw in a match, especially since Claw's footsies tools are still very effective even against the old shotos' better priority and range on low pokes.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,660
    I didn't mean to imply he'd beat Claw, just that he doesn't get wrecked as bad as most do and can actually fight back pretty competently.
    Steam:Coffeeling | Fightcade: Coffeeling-FIN
    Xrd: Sol | ST: Claw, O.Sagat, O.Ryu | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
    Resource pack for learning fighting games and/or starting KOF13
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,710
    Komatik wrote: »
    I didn't mean to imply he'd beat Claw, just that he doesn't get wrecked as bad as most do and can actually fight back pretty competently.

    I mean, he's better off than Zangief or Dhalsim, but I often wonder who exactly is a good answer versus Claw. Only characters I can think of who can fight him on close to even footing is Deejay, Claw, O.Sagat, or Boxer. Ken's good as long as your reads are on-point and you can keep the knee bash mixups going, but it's hard to be consistent with it.
  • SesshomaruSesshomaru Joined: Posts: 559
    @eltrouble do you know what is the prejump frames for each characters?
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