Super Street Fighter II Turbo, in the house

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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Maybe the reason this works with the headbutt but not Boxer's dash punch is because the headbutt doesn't require as much charge time. Thoughts?
    Actually, I looked this up, and according to NKI's translation of T Akiba's site, Honda's headbutt and Boxer's regular kick rush have the same charge times. I tried doing strong and fierce grab with Boxer and then walking under and doing crouching jab xx kick rush, but it didn't work, whereas it's not hard at all to do fierce grab with Honda and then walk under crouching short xx headbutt.

    To my eyes it looks like both throws toss the opponent the same height into the air, so I don't think Honda's throw lets him charge longer once he gets to the other side. I don't know what the difference is.
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  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    2. Oddly enough I'm having trouble anti airing with the back-jab chop(laugh at me, i deserve it). I do fine with the back strong, but I think I'm clueless about the timing on what Im trying to accomplish with the jab chop.. do i want to do it early or late? Any characters it shuts down particularly well, or is particularly useless against?

    I'm pretty sure you have to do the chop pretty late.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    ...Honda's headbutt and Boxer's regular kick rush have the same charge times... I don't know what the difference is [in being able to do it with Honda but not Boxer].
    Just wanted to say that you're not alone, and I went through the exact, same testing steps when I read about this and ended up with the same, confusing results. What was especially confusing to me is that I'd have guessed that it would've been a hair easier with Boxer's kick rush, because I thought his greater footspeed would allow him to run underneath the opponent faster and start getting charge on that side earlier. Weird.

    Edit: I meant to say I was using Boxer's low strong for this.
  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    I tried doing strong and fierce grab with Boxer and then walking under and doing crouching jab xx kick rush, but it didn't work, whereas it's not hard at all to do fierce grab with Honda and then walk under crouching short xx headbutt.

    Maybe people with a more thorough understanding of the game engine can correct my terminology here, but you can't combo Boxer's crouching jab into a kick rush. The crouching jab will let you link combo but not interrupt combo. So what you need to do is low jab, then stand jab, then kick rush.

    It's the same principle as the low forward, low strong, low dash combo. You can link from a low forward into a low strong, and a low strong is interruptable into a low dash. However, you cannot interrupt a low foward into a low dash.

    So back to the low jab example -- the low jab is the analogue to the low forward, and stand jab is the analogue of the low strong. Stand jab is interruptible into dashes, but low jab is not.

    Julien
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  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    Julien I think I get what you mean. We use the term "cancellable" for interruptible usually.

    Hey, can you practice at my house sometime this week? Lemme know.
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Got a couple Dhalsim questions....Snip

    Q1) depends three things:

    a) what they are dizzied with i.e. Birds, Stars, Angles, or Deaths, and

    b) Character width/throw ranges

    c) How far the enemy is when you dizzy them.

    If you are up close to the enemy in the longer dizzies (Stars recover fastest and grim reapers recover slowest - Majestros.), you have time to Sh. Yoga Up Flame (whiffs, but builds meter)> yoga st flame ( Knocks enemy down & builds meter...fierce doesn't do any more life than the St. flame and take 4 more frames to comes out)> sh. up yoga flame (Whiffs, but builds meter). This builds HELLA meter and knocks down the apponent where you can play get up games.

    I prefer the above ^ against the bigger characters with better throw ranges than Sim (Gief, Hawk, Honda, Blanka). Doing the Noggie trap against these guys is a little risky. They can all out throw you with thier throw ranges, one throw can lead to a world of pain for Sim. You'll want to keep your distance in these fights. Not to mention getting the super ASAP is always a good strat..

    Up close against dizzied thinner characters. (Chun & Claw) I go for the the Noogie trap and go for the cross up mk slilde >headbutt on the release. If it hits it will lead to another dizzy. Rinse repeat, thorw a little bit of mix up in there and you have yourself a win for the round A-dhalsim wrote a big post on this earlier in this thread.

    Against the rest of the cast. Pick your poison. I tend to go for the noggie. It is hard for most average -to above average- players to get out of.

    Against better players I go for the flames. Most really good players will reversal you on the noggie trap.

    If your at mid screen away, I MK slide into st. flame.

    If you are far away. Do the Frc. yoga fire (knocks Down) and the either follow up with a quick drill to close the distance or whiff Up yoaga flames to build meter or throw another mp fire as they are falling (while on fire) from the frc. fire (it will hit meaty as they get up forcing them to block or do a reversal) and then follow up with a drill to close the distance if you choose, punish their reversal, or keep your zone.

    Q3) MK. When it hits the oppenent, it hit/ block stun pushs Sim out of most characters throw ranges but keeps them inside Sims throw range.

    Also, if done correctly IIRC it leaves sim at frame advanatage as well. You can combo mk slide>close mk
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  • wakeupsweepwakeupsweep Joined: Posts: 124
    Maybe people with a more thorough understanding of the game engine can correct my terminology here, but you can't combo Boxer's crouching jab into a kick rush. The crouching jab will let you link combo but not interrupt combo. So what you need to do is low jab, then stand jab, then kick rush.

    It's the same principle as the low forward, low strong, low dash combo. You can link from a low forward into a low strong, and a low strong is interruptable into a low dash. However, you cannot interrupt a low foward into a low dash.

    So back to the low jab example -- the low jab is the analogue to the low forward, and stand jab is the analogue of the low strong. Stand jab is interruptible into dashes, but low jab is not.

    Julien

    Actually, you can cancel, or interrupt, a low jab.
    And I can definetely do walk under, low jab xx kick rush, maybe I'm doing it too slow?
  • ThisGuileKillYaThisGuileKillYa SSS++++ tier at exaggeration Joined: Posts: 2,627
    Q1) depends three things:

    a) what they are dizzied with i.e. Birds, Stars, Angles, or Deaths, and

    Holy crap I had no idea there was a difference!
    Q1) fierce doesn't do any more life than the St. flame and take 4 more frames to comes out

    I've been using jab flame.. is strong just as fast, recovery and all?
    Q1) Up close against dizzied thinner characters. (Chun & Claw) I go for the the Noogie trap and go for the cross up mk slilde >headbutt on the release. If it hits it will lead to another dizzy. Rinse repeat, thorw a little bit of mix up in there and you have yourself a win for the round A-dhalsim wrote a big post on this earlier in this thread.

    Yeah, I was aware of this trick.. but here's the weird thing. I've never gotten it to work with fwd slide, but I have gotten it to work with short slide! And I've now seen 3 people(you're the 3rd) posting fwd slide. Now, no doubt all 3 of you know the game better than me.. but I've actually DONE it with short, and have NEVER done it with fwd! What gives? This might be an NKI technical question here. I can keep trying with fwd slide, but I'm sure you can understand my confusion since I've only gotten this to work with short lol

    Good to know about the frame adv on the fwd slide, tho. All good info.. thanks a lot for the replies guys! :)
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin

    (Stars recover fastest and grim reapers recover slowest - Majestros.)

    Isn't it Angels > stars > grim reapers(fastest to slowest to recover), and just stars is the most common one?
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    I've been using jab flame.. is strong just as fast, recovery and all?

    It breaks down like this:

    Jab Yoga Flame:
    21 frames startup
    32 frames hit
    19 frames recovery
    18 damage

    Strong Yoga Flame:
    23 frames startup
    48 frames hit
    19 frames recovery
    20 damage

    Fierce Yoga Flame:
    25 frames startup
    64 frames hit
    19 frames recovery
    20 damage

    And, FWIW, they all build the same amount of meter. So, it looks like if you're sure it will hit, then strong is your best choice :tup:
  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    N.Ken's TOD in ST is C.Up Foward, st.Fierce, Fierce SRK. It dizzies everytime so I'm assuming this is it. If it is then great, but if not would someone please enlighten me?

    Thanks
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  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Isn't it Angels > stars > grim reapers(fastest to slowest to recover), and just stars is the most common one?

    That could be true:sweat: :sweat: . I am just posting from Majestro's post.

    In ST, there are four kinds of dizzies: stars, birds, angels, grim reapers. Stars recover fastest and grim reapers recover slowest. It's pretty much random which one you'll get. Good luck!

    He is normally pretty right on. He's a ninja. :karate: Here is the original post... http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=3260141&postcount=2416

    Be it could be wrong. I can't say for sure. Since I am taking his word for it. But as I said, he has a rep for knowing what he is tralking about.

    Let me do some testing and try to confirm a definate answer.:wgrin:
    ThisGuilekillya ... Sim yoga flame frames... snip

    That somes it up. On dizzy do the Strong. In matched I use Jab flame the most, but mix up with the others just a bit to make my game less predictable. Mixing up will catch those trying to punish the 'jab' flame with headbutts, blanks balls, hurricane kicks, and etc. by running into the longer versions... if that makes sense.
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  • CapMasterCapMaster OG Pad Player Joined: Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Who does better against Blanka, Ryu or O.Sagat?
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    It depends on how good the reaction time of your opponent is. It's easy for Blanka to jump over fireballs, but O.Sagat generally recovers quickly enough to TU you every time, whereas Ryu's, even though their recovery time is fast, may throw it too slow to recover before you kick him in the grill.
  • felinekifelineki Joined: Posts: 981
    Something I've been wondering about Akuma's superpause glitch on the Dreamcast version... what happens if he doesn't have enough health to survive the fireball that initiates it?
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  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    Actually, you can cancel, or interrupt, a low jab.
    And I can definetely do walk under, low jab xx kick rush, maybe I'm doing it too slow?

    Wow, really? I had no idea you could do this. I think I may have seen a low jab into super, but I've never seen a low jab comboed into any kind of special move.

    NKI can you confirm this?

    Julien
    Taking shit back to the RESERVOIR
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  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    Why would you need NKI to confirm it? It's kinda easy to test yourself.

    But since I always like ST trivia, c.jab canceled into any three punch rush or any three kick rushes combos. point blank range, DC version. With the rising shoulder (charge d, u+punch move. I forget the name), it only combos with the jab version. If you're good with links, c.jab link c.jab xx any rush punch or kick combos too.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Why would you need NKI to confirm it? It's kinda easy to test yourself.
    Dude, no offense, but being able to cancel low jab before the recovery frames is kind of a big deal.
  • ekseks ♥ ♥ Joined: Posts: 1,172
    i went into kawaks and tried low jab rush punch, seems to work fine, try it yourself
  • ToodlesToodles da Fetus of Gawd! Joined: Posts: 10,778
    Dude, no offense, but being able to cancel low jab before the recovery frames is kind of a big deal.
    None taken, but I dont see how its a big deal. Walk close, crouch back until charged, jab, towards, release jab. Now linking jabs, that takes timing. My only gripe is that is very simple to test. It took longer to boot up ST than it did to test in training mode. No need to invoke the holy NKI for something 60 seconds in an emulator would have told you.

    I see a bunch of people all of time on these boards asking questions that just the briefest amount of time in training mode could answer. This is one of them. Another was how to roll and what are the different rolls in Garou. Both answered easily in training mode; making the post had to take longer than actually trying it.

    The 'how to combo boxer's super after a rush punch' is a question that training mode may not tell you. One question way back was saying Ryu can do two j.strongs for a four hit combo; how does this happen? NKI actually answered that immediately (opponent has to be in prejump when the first hit of the first j.strong connects). That's stuff that is a damn good question and reason to invoke help.

    But asking if you can combo anything after a c.short? Hell no. Boot up the play and find out. Less time in forums, more time playing.
  • AirthrowAirthrow Joined: Posts: 4,525
    Some of us can't run emulators on our computers...
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I'm really all for anything that improves opponents' ability to be threatening... so I don't think it's valid to say it's a waste of time.

    It's not something I'm interested in except for strategic purposes, though. I have always disliked combos.
  • Master BigodeMaster Bigode Touhoufag Joined: Posts: 879
    Something I've been wondering about Akuma's superpause glitch on the Dreamcast version... what happens if he doesn't have enough health to survive the fireball that initiates it?

    You will have to reset it, since the character wont move.
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  • wakeupsweepwakeupsweep Joined: Posts: 124
    Wow, really? I had no idea you could do this. I think I may have seen a low jab into super, but I've never seen a low jab comboed into any kind of special move.

    NKI can you confirm this?

    Julien

    Well, I even tried that myself before posting just to make sure, because I know you know your stuff, and I assure you I can do it 100%.
  • HP87HP87 Joined: Posts: 99
    My guess is that the debug mode could either be accessed by pressing some codes on the joysticks & buttons at the test screen similar to CPS1 or maybe by enabling some jumpers on the A or B CPS2 boards. There's 27 jumpers IIRC on the B board and they haven't been documented as far as I know.

    Was there such a code in CPS1 games? If so, does it work for WW, CE and Turbo too?
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I was playing CCC2 arcade against the computer yesterday, and it was me (Honda) v. T Hawk (computer). In the second round, the computer Hawk hit me with crouching fierce CANCEL AFTER FIRST HIT into fierce dragon punch, and the first hit of the crouching fierce comboed into the dragon punch for two hits. What in the world???
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  • Master BigodeMaster Bigode Touhoufag Joined: Posts: 879
    I was playing CCC2 arcade against the computer yesterday, and it was me (Honda) v. T Hawk (computer). In the second round, the computer Hawk hit me with crouching fierce CANCEL AFTER FIRST HIT into fierce dragon punch, and the first hit of the crouching fierce comboed into the dragon punch for two hits. What in the world???

    Without crossups ?
    WTF?
    ^Cool story bro.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    No crossups. He was right in front of me, I wasn't blocking, he did crouching fierce xx dragon punch. I went into training mode immediately after, picked New Hawk, and tried to do that for like 10 minutes on a variety of different characters (including Honda), but I couldn't get it to work. Then I picked Old Hawk (just in case) and did the same thing, but that didn't work either. I mean, I know the ST cpu cheats and does some things that are impossible for human players (Ken's fierce dragon punch being unblockable sometimes), but in all my years of playing the crap out of ST in arcades, on the Dreamcast, on emulator, and more recently on Hyper and CCC2, I've never seen Hawk's low fierce canceled into a dragon for a combo.
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  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    The computer will sometimes do impossible cancels. I've seen N.Fei cancel his cr.Short into Rekka Ken, and I've heard from Japanese players that he will also sometimes cancel his overhead into floating air Rekka Kens. (Because Fei is slightly off the ground during his overhead.)
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  • supamansupaman Apples and Oranges! Joined: Posts: 457
    hey NKI i don't know if you remembered but i was the person u played first round at evo east.

    I was just wondering what is your game plan going against another chun. I noticed u started to use the far strong later on in our match which proved effective.

    Any ways good shit hope to play you again at evo worlds
  • NKINKI Mashers Joined: Posts: 1,788
    As you may have noticed, I really have no game plan when I play Chun vs. Chun.

    Rushing her down with far st.Strong is about the only thing that I know of that works well...:confused:

    But yeah, good games, and I'll see you in Vegas if you go.
    The computer will sometimes do impossible cancels.
    And today when I was playing against CPU Guile, he did neutral st.Forward xx Flash Kick for the win. :bluu:
    It was a fun ten years.

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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    I don`t know why the AI in ST is so hated:sad:. I mean, if you dont have human competition at the moment, you can just play against the computer and it would be harder than playing a human anyway:rofl:.

    The only one that I cant stand fighting against is Dee Jay. The man does 75% damage with his machine gun uppercut:confused:, so I just Hurricane Kick the shit out of him.
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    I don`t know why the AI in ST is so hated:sad:. I mean, if you dont have human competition at the moment, you can just play against the computer and it would be harder than playing a human anyway:rofl:.

    The only one that I cant stand fighting against is Dee Jay. The man does 75% damage with his machine gun uppercut:confused:, so I just Hurricane Kick the shit out of him.

    The main reason is taht a computer that stands there and does nothing would be more helpful to a player than the computer who cheats and frustrates you. Computers don't teach you reaction nor technique. You usually have to play patterns and super simple in order to win. If the computer stood there and ate everything you threw at it, at least it would be like training mode and you caan practice combos. ^_^ I cannot remember the last time I've ever played the CPU in any fighting game (unless it was to unlock something).

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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    The main reason is taht a computer that stands there and does nothing would be more helpful to a player than the computer who cheats and frustrates you. Computers don't teach you reaction nor technique. You usually have to play patterns and super simple in order to win. If the computer stood there and ate everything you threw at it, at least it would be like training mode and you caan practice combos. ^_^ I cannot remember the last time I've ever played the CPU in any fighting game (unless it was to unlock something).

    I have to disagree with your first point (of the two). CPU can and does improve you're reaction time. Turn ST up to T4 and play the game defensively. Wait for the opp. to attack and counter b/f they can attack again. Practice until you know when to counter with the most effectiveness for each individual special. Since the CPU does have Patterns that are very obvious, "you have to learn how to learn." I decided that by just counter attacking my reaction time increased dramatically. If you forget the pattern and just focus on individual attacks you'll have to have incredible speed to survive.
    Your second point is absolutely true. The CPU cannot teach you technique; this comes from tons of matches against various human opp.

    Eduardo24
    The CPU is terrible to compare to human opp. The only thing the CPU can ASSIST you with is reaction time, move execution, combos, counters, safe jumps, general match ups, range, patience, strength, reversals, and cancels. You can only learn some of these if you know how to learn i.e. teach yourself. Ex. I had to learn how to position my thumb on the joystick so I could execute moves with precision timing. As for Tick Setups, general game plan, real match ups, and EXP.; the best place is human opp. and tourneys (especially trnys); you should watch trny vids as well.

    Not tryin to flame jchensor:D
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    The problem with using the CPU for training is that the CPU is not programmed to realize when something doesn't work. It basically cycles through different strategies, whereas a human player, when something no longer works, will stop doing it against you (unless he is a special brand of stupid). So no, I think Chen's first point stands too.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Playing the CPU is fun once you get good enough to be able to rush it down.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    Seriously, does anyone even know what RTSD means anymore? It's just thrown out these days.
  • AlphastormAlphastorm SRK's Kingofbeatdown Joined: Posts: 1,171 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Playing the CPU is fun once you get good enough to be able to rush it down.

    Try rushing down feilong on highest setting. I bet you can't. :arazz:
  • jchensorjchensor Salty Chen Joined: Posts: 1,934 admin
    I have to disagree with your first point (of the two). CPU can and does improve you're reaction time. Turn ST up to T4 and play the game defensively. Wait for the opp. to attack and counter b/f they can attack again.

    No, I still disagree. It'll help maybe the frist one or two times you play the CPU. But eventually, you realize the computer only tries about 1 of 4 or 5 things. And your mind trains yourself to expect one of 4 or 5 things. When you play against experts, there is almost a limitless amount of things they can try to you. Against the computer, your reaction is no longer true reaction. It's "anticipated' reaction. There's a great article about different types of reaction, and I'll link to it when I find it again. But playing against the computer, regardless of speed, will not help you much.

    - James
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  • ShinVegaShinVega Shoryuken'n est. 92' Joined: Posts: 191
    Point taken jchensor.
    I guess I should explain myself a little more clearly. When I say reaction time, I mean litteraly the time it takes you to see the start up frames of any move and know what to counter it with. As far as setups the CPU does no good. You're also right that the CPU is programmed to only try certain moves at certain times. Here's an example of how to improved reaction time using the CPU.

    Use AE training mode and turn the Opp. to CPU. I'll pick blanka for example. Blanka is only going to try and jump in or use the rolling ball attack most of the time. Set the speed is at it's highest setting, and don't memorize the CPU patterns [this is the key idea of using the CPU to train; if you become to familiar with one character switch to another/or pick a diff. SF game like CvS2]. Just try to counter every attack. When Blanka attacks with a rolling ball see if you're fast enough to counter it with a lp srk. If you can counter several WITHOUT knowing that it's coming then you're reaction time has improved (if you KNEW it was coming then it's not reaction time; just as jchensor's point suggests).

    This approach has helped me (if it hadn't made a definate impact on my gameplay then I wouldn't be arguing the point) and it might help others. Some gamers might not benefit, but some can. I just want anyone reading this to understand that the CPU can be of use if you know how to use it.
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