There are rare cases when this is true though. Tomhilfiger's Nina and Noman's Christie come to mind.
When everyone was rocking T4 Jin, they came and showed everyone how good those "low tier" characters really are.
The problem is that these days, scrubs aren't willing to go and actually learn a character and simply want the easy way out. Tiers aren't set in stone and can change depending on whether people can actually develop a character. Remember MvC2 before Mags' ROM or when people though Makoto was trash in 3S (before people learned to kill with one combo with her)?
Pinoy2DFighters - The Philippines brings you 3 things: terrorists, trolls and ass beatings in MAHVELL. D3Vlicious.com - Fighting game and arcade stick news. Follow me on Twitter @D3Vlicious PSN: unityd3v (US), pinakaguwaping (HK)
Counter examples? No
Basic English? No.
Civility? No
Just say someone is an idiot, that'll show me.
So TELL ME why it would alter the game, becuase this is no better an argument than the smash bros players saying items make Brawl broken "becuase it does."
Good GOD, I just followed one of you to another thread, and it's the same people, trolling smash in a non-smash thread? What else do you do!??! And I provided an argument for items, but you stopped replying. Afraid of logic aren't you? You guys just troll Smash because it's fun for you isn't it? You guys need to grow up.
Good GOD, I just followed one of you to another thread, and it's the same people, trolling smash in a non-smash thread? What else do you do!??! And I provided an argument for items, but you stopped replying. Afraid of logic aren't you? You guys just troll Smash because it's fun for you isn't it? You guys need to grow up.
THAT WAS MY QUESTION! Look at the first page, we have negative-zero attacking smash, and Shiki likening smashers to scrubs! This has nothing to do with smash, and they still troll smash, it's so sad!
For the sake of not hijacking this thread, I'll leave the issue alone.
THAT WAS MY QUESTION! Look at the first page, we have negative-zero attacking smash, and Shiki likening smashers to scrubs! This has nothing to do with smash, and they still troll smash, it's so sad!
For the sake of not hijacking this thread, I'll leave the issue alone.
I also play melee, haters are gonna hate. There isn't much you can do about them. :P
THAT WAS MY QUESTION! Look at the first page, we have negative-zero attacking smash, and Shiki likening smashers to scrubs! This has nothing to do with smash, and they still troll smash, it's so sad!
For the sake of not hijacking this thread, I'll leave the issue alone.
Do you HONESTLY mean that tiny little jab I threw there. I have already been proved wrong and learned from my original point, and i moved on. That post had shit to do with smash. It is YOU who is being childish and looking for arguments.
"how far in life do you have to sink when you go to a tournament just to hold up a sign" NickGuy
Do you HONESTLY mean that tiny little jab I threw there. I have already been proved wrong and learned from my original point, and i moved on. That post had shit to do with smash. It is YOU who is being childish and looking for arguments.
It wasn't all directed at you. What irked me is that I tried to explain the item stuff to you and you talk about it here like smashers don't make real arguments. Whatever, sorry it irked me. It was Brawl anyways so meh. Let's not hijack the thread.
I'd say banning Yun Yang for future tournament would be a better solution. I mean if you can ban Akuma from ST / HDR tournaments then I can't see why not.
IMO these 2 characters are NOT designed for competitive game play. The reason they get designed this way is solely because Capcom wants to sell more copy of SF33 and SFxT, it's a way of for profit company marketing.
that thread its so full of whining and lulz material
RIP SRK 2000 - 2009
i love this quote about the twins: "They're just designed too well for the game they were put in."
you'd think the conclusion here would be 'sf4 is an ass game where well-designed characters dominate simply by virtue of being well-designed', not 'we need to get rid of these characters so we can play fair with all the other badly designed characters'
I kind of like the unbalanced AE. I have somewhat of a fetish for unbalanced game, presents a real challenge. But lol at people calling for bans, like they haven't been beaten NUMEROUS times before.
"how far in life do you have to sink when you go to a tournament just to hold up a sign" NickGuy
i love this quote about the twins: "They're just designed too well for the game they were put in."
you'd think the conclusion here would be 'sf4 is an ass game where well-designed characters dominate simply by virtue of being well-designed', not 'we need to get rid of these characters so we can play fair with all the other badly designed characters'
Oh god... *epic facepalm*
If he thinks yun warrants a ban, then I'd like to see his reaction when he gets corner fucked by Bison in CE.
Pinoy2DFighters - The Philippines brings you 3 things: terrorists, trolls and ass beatings in MAHVELL. D3Vlicious.com - Fighting game and arcade stick news. Follow me on Twitter @D3Vlicious PSN: unityd3v (US), pinakaguwaping (HK)
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My idea is called JIT blocking - or "Just in Time."
The basic premise is this: the longer you wait to pull back on the stick before you block, the more chip damage you take and the heavier the guard stun inflicted on you.
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My idea is called JIT blocking - or "Just in Time."
The basic premise is this: the longer you wait to pull back on the stick before you block, the more chip damage you take and the heavier the guard stun inflicted on you.
Maybe instead of what you're talking about they should have a kind of guard meter, except this meter fills up when you're holding back. If it fills up then you can't block anymore. It decreases when you let go of block, and it takes a moment before it fills up so you can do perfect timing blocks to avoid increasing it at all if you're in danger of it filling up. Charge characters could just have a larger bar, or have it fill up slower, so they can still do charge moves as long as they're aware of how far the bar has filled.
The AE board, one of the few places I dare not mod, since folks there all think that I'm a cheap tier whoring bastard (which isn't far from the truth).
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many of the people on the 3rd strike forums are very good at the game, but their ideas about the game and its balance are insane (see page 4 where i confront them with empirical evidence and am met with denial).
3s is the best fighting game ever...everyone can beat everyone...the listing of tiers operates on another plane compared to most games because of the mechanics and parry system.
People who think Chun and Yun are literally game breaking aren't good/knowledgable players.
Pyrolee- 3rd strike legend who has been playing 3rd strike at the top level for 10+ years .
seriously guys, "anyone can win because parries" was something you could get away with saying in 2004 when nobody outside of japan knew shit about the game..
Good games player -- some random who read a few tougeki facts and thinks he is a walking encyclopedia of third strike wisdom .
hmmm i wonder who's argument holds more weight ?? .....*is lost in deep thought*
the one with empirical evidence behind it rather than voodoo fanboyism?
it's cool if you are an empiricist , but until you immerse into the game rather than analyzing cold hard facts from afar and acting as if you know more about a game than some people who have played it religiously for a number of years (like me) , i can't really see how even you could assume that your argument is validated .
sometimes you have to experience things to understand them rather than analyze them like a mathemical equation .
matchup ratings are absolutely mathematical equations though. do they tell the whole story? of course not, but only because of factors beyond their scope i.e. variance and player differences. but 3s players want to deny that the matchup advantage/disadvantage system even applies to that game. which, if you look at tournament results, is ridiculous. i don't see how you can deny this.
hmmm i wonder who's argument holds more weight ?? .....*is lost in deep thought*
maybe my memory is fucked up from old age but I coulda sworn pyrolee uses yun, so he's at least using the path of least resistance to victory, and any conjecture from him is possibly because he gets blown up by jps?
3s is far from the most balanced game out there, as even parry doesn't help many of the lower tier's problems(were SBO 3s a singles tournament the results would be wildly different)
matchup lists are based off of one important thing: that both players are masters of their character
if one player is obviously better than the other, then you can no longer use tiers(except for some cases, but that's based on the char) and matchup diagrams as a guide
there's a difference between a dumb top tier and a varied mid tier that can fight them but more often than not require much more thought and execution to do so, and an actual balanced game
I feel dirty for agreeing with ggg
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3s is far from the most balanced game out there, as even parry doesn't help many of the lower tier's problems(were SBO 3s a singles tournament the results would be wildly different)
No ones saying it's a balanced game , it's just that 3rd strike get's a bad rep because on the surface all tourneys are yun/chun/ken dominated and thus new players and those looking at 3rd strike from a distant are extremely put off by it . But as i said earlier this definitely does not tell the whole story , the way the game is designed it places far more emphasis on how well you read your opponent in relation to other street fighters where the tiers are more concrete and matches are even more set in stone . Case in point ...cammy vs sim in ssf4 . match is 7-3 straight up , but think how the match would go if the Sim had the option to parry Cammys rushdown and link to super ?? . Would completely change the whole mentality of both players , the dynamics of the metagame and how the cammy player approaches the rushdown . So ssf4 and ST have less flexibility within less advantageous matchups . And yes if SBO were a singles tournament the results would be different i agree . A team with yun/chun/ken basically covers each others matchups + all the 3 characters are being used extremely good players ..then it becomes a tough task to beat them with a team like alex/q/necro . 100 per cent i agree on that
maybe my memory is fucked up from old age but I coulda sworn pyrolee uses yun, so he's at least using the path of least resistance to victory, and any conjecture from him is possibly because he gets blown up by jps?
So...... , theres more to being the best player in your country than picking the correct character on the character select screen . And comparing anyone to japan in third strike is not even called for .
matchup lists are based off of one important thing: that both players are masters of their character
if one player is obviously better than the other, then you can no longer use tiers(except for some cases, but that's based on the char) and matchup diagrams as a guide
there's a difference between a dumb top tier and a varied mid tier that can fight them but more often than not require much more thought and execution to do so, and an actual balanced game
Matchup rankings do not account for player intelligence , and third strike places more emphasis on player intellligence/adaptation/thinking than any other street fighters ive played although this element is present within every fighting game . Whereas in ST i feel i can do nothing when i am in a bad matchup and im actually playing well , e.g fei long vs ryu , if the ryu player has good execution , spacing , baiting and zoning it can really start to feel impossible . Whereas in third strike i can just jump in parry the anti air and shift the momentum in my favour with one good read . Theres no freedom like that in ST .
And i already agreed in the above resonse that 3S in no way balanced , a truly balanced fighter can never be created unless each character is in someway a clone of the other ..which would be hella boring .
sorry, i just really thought you were joking with some of your posts :S
anyway, just because you feel like you can do more doesn't mean the matchup is any less bad.
let's take the sides of a fair coin as analogous to two players of equal skill. if for each heads you give me $5 and for each tails you get nothing, your expected value is identical to if for each heads you give me $10 and for each tails i give you $5. the only difference is in the first example you're never going to walk away a winner, but over the long term you'll lose $5 for every flip in both cases.
some 8-2s are not better than others. if chun vs. oro seems more winnable than st ryu vs. honda, that's just an illusion enforced by the fact that you feel like you always could've done something in the former case and not in the latter. but the fact that you always could've done something doesn't necessarily make it any less of a bad matchup, long term. it's all about risk/reward.
Varied mid tier = Dudley/Makoto/Yang/Oro/Ryu/Elena/Akuma . All these characters win consistently in high level play when in the right hands . If you want to know a top player for any of these characters pm me and i will show you .
Elena hasn't been mid-tier for years...
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sorry, i just really thought you were joking with some of your posts :S
anyway, just because you feel like you can do more doesn't mean the matchup is any less bad.
let's take the sides of a fair coin as analogous to two players of equal skill. if for each heads you give me $5 and for each tails you get nothing, your expected value is identical to if for each heads you give me $10 and for each tails i give you $5. the only difference is in the first example you're never going to walk away a winner, but over the long term you'll lose $5 for every flip in both cases.
some 8-2s are not better than others. if chun vs. oro seems more winnable than st ryu vs. honda, that's just an illusion enforced by the fact that you feel like you always could've done something in the former case and not in the latter. but the fact that you always could've done something doesn't necessarily make it any less of a bad matchup, long term. it's all about risk/reward.
1. WE should move this to the top 5 balance topic/.
2. Obviously a game with less flexibility with its options will make match-ups much worse. I haven't played third strike but I have played a bunch of uther games to prove this statement.
For example.
In ST, Akuma dominated most of the cast. This was due to the fact that he was able to abuse the mechanics the most. Now if they had a mechanic like pushblocking to keep akuma out, the marchps would be much less irratating. In VS, Q-Bee vs Bishamon is skewed in Q-bee's favor, but since mechanics like push blocking exist, Q-bee can't rush him down forever and he has a better chance to keep her out.
"how far in life do you have to sink when you go to a tournament just to hold up a sign" NickGuy
Why can't most 3S players simply admit that we like the game despite it not being perfectly balanced?
Pinoy2DFighters - The Philippines brings you 3 things: terrorists, trolls and ass beatings in MAHVELL. D3Vlicious.com - Fighting game and arcade stick news. Follow me on Twitter @D3Vlicious PSN: unityd3v (US), pinakaguwaping (HK)
I know I'd respect your religion a whole lot more, if more of you would admit to its irrationality.
Well, okay - no I wouldn't.
But I respect 3Sers like you, who admit to such.
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I'm an admitted tier whore. As Tokido (who is as far from a scrub as you can get) himself stated “maybe it’s ok to have an easy character after all.”
But enough of that. All this 3S talk has derailed the thread.
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In ST, Akuma dominated most of the cast. This was due to the fact that he was able to abuse the mechanics the most. Now if they had a mechanic like pushblocking to keep akuma out, the marchps would be much less irratating.
scrubquotes worthy. dont talk about games you dont play :X
A lot of the quotes look like they require one to deeply know the game in question, which lowers the comedic value considering they're talking about a bunch of games, in my view anyway. For instance, I don't play or follow MvC3, so for all I know, Phoenix could have 7-3s across the board and have a glitch that halves all damage she gets and truly needs nurfing.
"The important thing is the existence of that "wall" I mentioned earlier. If you're going to include a hundred different techniques a player has to master, the important thing is whether you can give them the motivation to do so or not. With Street Fighter III, and I did have fun playing it, but having all your attacks parried when you can't manage to do it consistently, frustrates a player more than it motivates them." - Daisuke Ishiwatari, Creator of Guilty Gear
A lot of the quotes look like they require one to deeply know the game in question, which lowers the comedic value considering they're talking about a bunch of games, in my view anyway. For instance, I don't play or follow MvC3, so for all I know, Phoenix could have 7-3s across the board and have a glitch that halves all damage she gets and truly needs nurfing.
the idea that phoenix needs nerfing isnt why that quote is funny
" and while the learning curve might be steep, the time and effort you put into it won't be obliterated by mindless mashing of uppercuts or ridiculous comeback mechanics. If you want to be the King of Fighters, you have to earn it."
scrubquotes worthy. dont talk about games you dont play :X
Yes I know that he also had inescapable traps against most of the cast as well has the air hadou.
Air hadou basically giving him nice ground recovery and hitting invincible moves. However, I do think that allowing you to pushblock some of his moves like his tatsu would tone him down. His crazy recovery time, his completely invincible moves, and his inescapable traps still makes him the best by far My original point ( which was supposed to be my original point, a bad one however) was giving the cast more flexibility in their options would allow their match ups to be much less brutal and actually winnable.
@Neverending Manga That quote was funny becuase he basically said that he has no experience with the game and all he does is watch other people play to determine his opinion.
"how far in life do you have to sink when you go to a tournament just to hold up a sign" NickGuy
Pretty sure Hecatom would like a crack at this one.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeGood GOD, I just followed one of you to another thread, and it's the same people, trolling smash in a non-smash thread? What else do you do!??! And I provided an argument for items, but you stopped replying. Afraid of logic aren't you? You guys just troll Smash because it's fun for you isn't it? You guys need to grow up.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeFor the sake of not hijacking this thread, I'll leave the issue alone.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeDo you HONESTLY mean that tiny little jab I threw there. I have already been proved wrong and learned from my original point, and i moved on. That post had shit to do with smash. It is YOU who is being childish and looking for arguments.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeIt wasn't all directed at you. What irked me is that I tried to explain the item stuff to you and you talk about it here like smashers don't make real arguments. Whatever, sorry it irked me. It was Brawl anyways so meh. Let's not hijack the thread.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likelolbracket4
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likethat thread its so full of whining and lulz material
RIP SRK 2000 - 2009
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likeyou'd think the conclusion here would be 'sf4 is an ass game where well-designed characters dominate simply by virtue of being well-designed', not 'we need to get rid of these characters so we can play fair with all the other badly designed characters'
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeIf he thinks yun warrants a ban, then I'd like to see his reaction when he gets corner fucked by Bison in CE.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeFlame, jab jab flame jab jab flame jab jab flame... Time Over.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeWTF?
How was SFII a serious martial-arts-based game? Did he ever finish the game with Zangief, ever??
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeI agree.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeEDIT:
Hey look, some idiot wants to turn SF in Garou... by which I mean, a horrible, distorted impersonation of Garou.
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capcom unity is a gold mine for scrub quotes
http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/27757745/Street_Fighter_Next_-_Just_in_Time_Blocking_mechanic_idea.&post_num=6#498526673
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likemany of the people on the 3rd strike forums are very good at the game, but their ideas about the game and its balance are insane (see page 4 where i confront them with empirical evidence and am met with denial).
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikePyrolee- 3rd strike legend who has been playing 3rd strike at the top level for 10+ years .
Good games player -- some random who read a few tougeki facts and thinks he is a walking encyclopedia of third strike wisdom .
hmmm i wonder who's argument holds more weight ?? .....*is lost in deep thought*
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likeit's cool if you are an empiricist , but until you immerse into the game rather than analyzing cold hard facts from afar and acting as if you know more about a game than some people who have played it religiously for a number of years (like me) , i can't really see how even you could assume that your argument is validated .
sometimes you have to experience things to understand them rather than analyze them like a mathemical equation .
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeWhen is this being added?
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Like3s is far from the most balanced game out there, as even parry doesn't help many of the lower tier's problems(were SBO 3s a singles tournament the results would be wildly different)
matchup lists are based off of one important thing: that both players are masters of their character
if one player is obviously better than the other, then you can no longer use tiers(except for some cases, but that's based on the char) and matchup diagrams as a guide
there's a difference between a dumb top tier and a varied mid tier that can fight them but more often than not require much more thought and execution to do so, and an actual balanced game
I feel dirty for agreeing with ggg
Only the finest of Poverty™Gaming Hipster™Comic-Z vs Super Metroid Watch if you want to lose your mind
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeNo ones saying it's a balanced game , it's just that 3rd strike get's a bad rep because on the surface all tourneys are yun/chun/ken dominated and thus new players and those looking at 3rd strike from a distant are extremely put off by it . But as i said earlier this definitely does not tell the whole story , the way the game is designed it places far more emphasis on how well you read your opponent in relation to other street fighters where the tiers are more concrete and matches are even more set in stone . Case in point ...cammy vs sim in ssf4 . match is 7-3 straight up , but think how the match would go if the Sim had the option to parry Cammys rushdown and link to super ?? . Would completely change the whole mentality of both players , the dynamics of the metagame and how the cammy player approaches the rushdown . So ssf4 and ST have less flexibility within less advantageous matchups . And yes if SBO were a singles tournament the results would be different i agree . A team with yun/chun/ken basically covers each others matchups + all the 3 characters are being used extremely good players ..then it becomes a tough task to beat them with a team like alex/q/necro . 100 per cent i agree on that
So...... , theres more to being the best player in your country than picking the correct character on the character select screen . And comparing anyone to japan in third strike is not even called for .
Matchup rankings do not account for player intelligence , and third strike places more emphasis on player intellligence/adaptation/thinking than any other street fighters ive played although this element is present within every fighting game . Whereas in ST i feel i can do nothing when i am in a bad matchup and im actually playing well , e.g fei long vs ryu , if the ryu player has good execution , spacing , baiting and zoning it can really start to feel impossible . Whereas in third strike i can just jump in parry the anti air and shift the momentum in my favour with one good read . Theres no freedom like that in ST .
And i already agreed in the above resonse that 3S in no way balanced , a truly balanced fighter can never be created unless each character is in someway a clone of the other ..which would be hella boring .
I got nothing against you man , i enjoy a good debate now and then .
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likeanyway, just because you feel like you can do more doesn't mean the matchup is any less bad.
let's take the sides of a fair coin as analogous to two players of equal skill. if for each heads you give me $5 and for each tails you get nothing, your expected value is identical to if for each heads you give me $10 and for each tails i give you $5. the only difference is in the first example you're never going to walk away a winner, but over the long term you'll lose $5 for every flip in both cases.
some 8-2s are not better than others. if chun vs. oro seems more winnable than st ryu vs. honda, that's just an illusion enforced by the fact that you feel like you always could've done something in the former case and not in the latter. but the fact that you always could've done something doesn't necessarily make it any less of a bad matchup, long term. it's all about risk/reward.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeElena hasn't been mid-tier for years...
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As for hubcapsignstop, trying to respond to anything he says is like having your OS ask "Delete C:\ and mass-rape orphans? Y/Y?" ~ ThePurpleBunny
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Like1. WE should move this to the top 5 balance topic/.
2. Obviously a game with less flexibility with its options will make match-ups much worse. I haven't played third strike but I have played a bunch of uther games to prove this statement.
For example.
In ST, Akuma dominated most of the cast. This was due to the fact that he was able to abuse the mechanics the most. Now if they had a mechanic like pushblocking to keep akuma out, the marchps would be much less irratating. In VS, Q-Bee vs Bishamon is skewed in Q-bee's favor, but since mechanics like push blocking exist, Q-bee can't rush him down forever and he has a better chance to keep her out.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeD3Vlicious.com - Fighting game and arcade stick news.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeI know I'd respect your religion a whole lot more, if more of you would admit to its irrationality.
Well, okay - no I wouldn't.
But I respect 3Sers like you, who admit to such.
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As for hubcapsignstop, trying to respond to anything he says is like having your OS ask "Delete C:\ and mass-rape orphans? Y/Y?" ~ ThePurpleBunny
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeBut enough of that. All this 3S talk has derailed the thread.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likescrubquotes worthy. dont talk about games you dont play :X
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Like- Spam
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likethe idea that phoenix needs nerfing isnt why that quote is funny
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeKOF XIII Review - Haunts
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree LikeYes I know that he also had inescapable traps against most of the cast as well has the air hadou.
Air hadou basically giving him nice ground recovery and hitting invincible moves. However, I do think that allowing you to pushblock some of his moves like his tatsu would tone him down. His crazy recovery time, his completely invincible moves, and his inescapable traps still makes him the best by far My original point ( which was supposed to be my original point, a bad one however) was giving the cast more flexibility in their options would allow their match ups to be much less brutal and actually winnable.
@Neverending Manga That quote was funny becuase he basically said that he has no experience with the game and all he does is watch other people play to determine his opinion.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Like*poops a little*
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likehttp://www.capcom-unity.com/ask_capcom/go/thread/view/7371/27796725/Capcom,_ever_considered_Fist_of_the_North_Star_as_an_IP
Pretty sure Hecatom would like a crack at this one.
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Likesf4? mvc3? sf3? mvc2?
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0 • Off Topic Disagree Agree Like