KoF XIII General Discussion: Part II

rogueyoshirogueyoshi Nothing Comes EasyJoined: Posts: 1,917
Official Site:
http://atlus.com/kofxiii/

North American Release Date:
November 22, 2011

SRK News Page (Atlus is answering questions about the game that are being posted in the comments):
http://shoryuken.com/2011/06/07/atlus-to-publish-the-king-of-fighthers-xiii-in-north-america/

Atlus's Offical Forum (Let your voice be heard for recommendations such as GGPO netcode):
http://www.atlus.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=105

SRK Hyper Guide Wiki:
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII

Dream Cancel Wiki:
http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=King_of_Fighters_XIII
nignagnog: minority report
nignagnog: you got punished for your future crimes
BossG: anybody that's black already suffers under pre-crime laws
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Comments

  • NocturnalNocturnal SNK Supporter Joined: Posts: 2,964 mod
    Beat me to it. Good work.
    http://youtube.com/profile?user=JaimeDL = Garou MOTW Videos
    http://www.twitch.tv/jaimedl = Garou MOTW Streaming + other SNK games

    "Playin kof" - deadly_magneto aka Pignuttz aka ||PIGG||
  • DarKaoZDarKaoZ Joined: Posts: 595
    Since the this is a new topic might as well post my Fan Trailer, this trailer was do to help raise the HYPE!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEND586leiQ
    or
    http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/kof-xiii-fan-trailer-by-darkaoz/358351
  • a11111357a11111357 Joined: Posts: 199
    Since the this is a new topic might as well post my Fan Trailer, this trailer was do to help raise the HYPE!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEND586leiQ
    or
    http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/kof-xiii-fan-trailer-by-darkaoz/358351
    good job.I have posted them in other forum.
  • NubilousNubilous Joined: Posts: 68
    this game looks dope , im coming from sf4 so hopefully the learning curve ain't too steep .
  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Nothing Comes Easy Joined: Posts: 1,917
    Since the this is a new topic might as well post my Fan Trailer, this trailer was do to help raise the HYPE!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEND586leiQ
    or
    http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/kof-xiii-fan-trailer-by-darkaoz/358351
    that was very well made...
    nignagnog: minority report
    nignagnog: you got punished for your future crimes
    BossG: anybody that's black already suffers under pre-crime laws
  • EDDUREDDUR Moluccan Joined: Posts: 970
    Finally, a wish list free XIII thread.
    " and while the learning curve might be steep, the time and effort you put into it won't be obliterated by mindless mashing of uppercuts or ridiculous comeback mechanics. If you want to be the King of Fighters, you have to earn it."

    KOF XIII Review - Haunts
  • Thatdude8Thatdude8 Joined: Posts: 293
    Official Site:
    http://atlus.com/kofxiii/

    (Alleged) North American Release Date:
    October 25th, 2011, source: http://www.amazon.com/King-Fighters-XIII-Playstation-3/dp/B0054IN5AA

    SRK News Page (Atlus is answering questions about the game that are being posted in the comments):
    http://shoryuken.com/2011/06/07/atlus-to-publish-the-king-of-fighthers-xiii-in-north-america/

    Atlus's Offical Forum (Let your voice be heard for recommendations such as GGPO netcode):
    http://www.atlus.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=105

    Dream Cancel Wiki:
    http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=King_of_Fighters_XIII

    SRK Hyper Guide Wiki:
    (coming soon)
    Hopefully it is not too late for GGPO to be implemented.
  • LabanLaban Ang Tikbalang Joined: Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    Hey Rogue is there going to be an official SRK Hyper Guide for KOF XIII or should I just keep on working on the one I have been doing?
  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Nothing Comes Easy Joined: Posts: 1,917
    Hey Rogue is there going to be an official SRK Hyper Guide for KOF XIII or should I just keep on working on the one I have been doing?
    wat. you've been doing one too? IM me...
    nignagnog: minority report
    nignagnog: you got punished for your future crimes
    BossG: anybody that's black already suffers under pre-crime laws
  • TizocTizoc Joined: Posts: 11,406
    http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=934.0
    Wonder if this'll be the only site they'll be checking out >_>;

    EDIT: BTW what's the current Tier list for the game?
    "You have to be a badass if you ride a giant seahorse." -Grant Morrison on why Aquaman is badass
    "Game Over, Snively. ...Thanks for playing." -Dr. Eggman, Sonic Universe #40
    "I'm stinking of animal blood...As of now I'm a vegetarian. And this is Bat-cow." -Damian Wayne
  • LabanLaban Ang Tikbalang Joined: Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    There isn't really one. Judging from all the videos I've seen, even characters that were considered the weakest by Asian players like Kim and Ralf were played well recently. A lot of characters are underplayed and I'd say the game balance is fine as it is. Raiden's drop kick is fine, it's just the anywhere juggles after the second drop kick is disgusting. If drop kick itself gets nerfed, Raiden would lose an interesting dynamic of his game and he'd be a watered down 98 Shermie that could more easily do a hitconfirm from low light attacks into command throw. It's the EX Shoulder Tackles after the Drop Kicks that are dumb. For K', he just needs to lose Ein Trigger > Second Shell > Minute Spike > Narrow Spike > Crow Bites in a meterless, normal bnb. If he has to use meter to get his loop in to do the damage then it's fine be it EX meter or Drive Meter so he'd have to set up a Crow Bites drive cancel into Minute Spike or EX Minute Spike in order to do the silly loop.

    Elizabeth is just a basic fundamental character that could anywhere juggle almost anything into super but comparatively amongst the cast she doesn't actually do that much damage. Shen Woo has been seen quite often most probably due to his basic zoning properties and the ability to do big yet easy HD Combos as a comeback factor. Duolon I thought would have been played more due to the loctests but he's not as popular as the other characters, most probably due to the fact that he doesn't hit hard and his mix up after rekkas isn't that scary at all. He also could be punished after rekka > teleport on block. Kyo, Iori, and Andy are just basic easy characters that everyone else could just pick up easily. Kyo's only abusable moves are HCB+K on block and EX Orochinagi being about 1 or 2 frames. I'd say Iori's Command Throw is being underplayed since he should be able to do a j.D or j.B hit reset after it and perhaps have a run under attempt after it. Just need to test and confirm, at least he has a j.4B that hits everyone on crouch unlike in 02. Iori should have a stronger mix up game because of his command throw and his j.4B but no one really uses him for it, only has a character with a big easy HD Combo.

    The most used characters currently are K', Raiden, Shen Woo, and Kula. Runners up are Andy, Kyo, and Iori. Due to the small pool of XIII players, there has been a insurgence of Maxima, Ralf, Kim, and Ash play recently; Maxima being the most popular of the group of characters. Seems that Maxima's df.C hits most crouchers now so he could do cr.b, cr.a xx df.c xx vapor canon and he could net good damage from a meterless bnb. Helps that he could do his full jump D during a hop and cr.b, cr.a outside of KOF XI, and that expands his high low mix up. He could also simply do cr.b, cr.a xx ex vapor canon > df.C xx vapor canon/dp+k. He could also just do an empty hop command throw that has minimal start up and it corner carries and has good oki afterwards or drive cancel into big damage and still have decent oki afterwards. Icing on the cake is that all of his guard points are much better and his Neomax is fast as anything and kills anything full screen and does big chip.

    So many off tangents. tl;dr, the current tier based on character popularity (not actual potential) be something like:
    K'
    Raiden
    Shen Woo
    Kula
    Kyo
    Iori
    Andy
    Everyone else
  • Dandy JDandy J now you face a super saiyan shaolin Joined: Posts: 2,790
    Don't forget Yuri. I'm not sure if she's popular in Dune's videos, but she is one of the easiest characters in the game.
    his mix up after rekkas isn't that scary at all.
    That's not true, he has a fuzzy guard setup after rekkas which means a 50/50 between instant hop B xx f+B or low B.
    I'd say Iori's Command Throw is being underplayed since he should be able to do a j.D or j.B hit reset after it and perhaps have a run under attempt after it.
    Yes, hyper hop D, run under works.
    "The challenge is, how can we create a mechanic where it makes your mistakes not matter and turns the game into a clown show? All these solutions are great but they don't take into account what X-Factor is supposed to do, which is turn the game into a joke."- O. Seth Killian
  • LabanLaban Ang Tikbalang Joined: Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    For me when I watch vids, after the rekkas it just doesn't seem he has that much of frame advantage and I just see people having difficulty in the Dune videos to actually earn something worth while after it. Everything usually is just blocked.

    That's neat in terms of Iori's Command Grab, thanks for confirming. I was thinking you could do something like hyper hop D hit reset > run under cr.b > hyper hop over j.4b and different mix ups based around stuff like that. I don't really see Iori players mess around with that and just do basic spacings and confirms into HD combos.

    I'd say Yuri was popular when the game first came out but I'd say her popularity dwindled a bit just like Elizabeth did right before the 1.1 patch. Yuri, Elizabeth, Mature, Goro, and Takuma were certainly played much more before the patch and now they shrunk. Now there are about a few people that stick with Takuma because they learned the Stun combo. Maybe it's just the large insurgence of Shen Woo that made me blind.
  • JazzJazz Pagua Sonfa Joined: Posts: 3,085
    im kof ignorant so let me know something if i missed it

    but what are the chances of yamazaki being in this game?

    cast set in stone?
    I think some ppl should join the madden community
  • Syxx573Syxx573 Syxx-Pacalypse Joined: Posts: 8,911
    Yamazaki is on a wanted sign in one of the stage's backgrounds, i think that's about as close as it's gonna get.

    Yo I played this game so much yesterday and totally love it. I can't wait for the console release.
  • FeezFeez Joined: Posts: 77
    Since the this is a new topic might as well post my Fan Trailer, this trailer was do to help raise the HYPE!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEND586leiQ
    or
    http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/kof-xiii-fan-trailer-by-darkaoz/358351
    that was actually pretty sick, good job
    ***#SNKPlaymore @EFnet***
  • affinityaffinity Joined: Posts: 1,111
    What does Atlus need to know to push for really good rollback netcode? People say GGPO this and that but even the majority of them don't know how it's actually programmed and implemented (how did the creators of Skullgirls manage to get GGPO in their software? Getting GGPO license and support doesn't sound cheap.) Hmmm but all this netcode work would be for nothing if they hand it over to something cheap like the Gamespy servers (the ones that bought out MPlayer and screwed up MK9.).... speaking of which, who is going to host the KOFXIII servers? SNKP or Atlus?

    Atlus is totally new to top level fighting games. They did publish Arcana Heart 1, but that was a generation before online gaming became a standard feature and netcode became serious business for all console fighting games.

    Is this going to be another case like when Ignition pestered SNKP to make good netcode but SNKP just hired some Japanese company that never took the rest of the world into account for their netcode and didn't bother to make any HD Remix-level multi-region testing and research on rollback vs. input delay?

    At this rate, Atlus might need to open up an international beta test before release, don't you think?
    FIGHTING VIPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭
    Affinity official SRK hypeperson?
    I don't got those.
  • Syxx573Syxx573 Syxx-Pacalypse Joined: Posts: 8,911
    remember how they messed up the us release of ah1 too?
  • Shin OniShin Oni Mr. Gimmicks Joined: Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭
    remember how they messed up the us release of ah1 too?

    At least there's word of mouth here. I don't remember hearing anything about AH1 when they picked it up.
    I don't got those.
  • TheAbsolutionTheAbsolution Joined: Posts: 737
    They better improve the netcode (they'll be reusing from XII) by VAST amounts. This is NOT good news.
  • Syxx573Syxx573 Syxx-Pacalypse Joined: Posts: 8,911
    well get on their asses on the atlus forum

    i tried registering but i couldn't figure out the answer to the spambot security question.... (-_-)
  • TheAbsolutionTheAbsolution Joined: Posts: 737
    well get on their asses on the atlus forum

    i tried registering but i couldn't figure out the answer to the spambot security question.... (-_-)
    I don't have anything to add since there's already enough people spammed GGPO or are crying their eyes out about XII's netcode.
  • affinityaffinity Joined: Posts: 1,111
    People should at least for the time being avoid spreading inaccurate rumors of KOFXII netcode being reused.
    The Atlus administrator R U OK? Buster Wolf'ed the TC that posted about information that was wrong.
    "shelcoof, you're presenting an article based on a hands-on experience I personally oversaw and managed. The take away from that article should NOT be that the "same, re-used" netcode will appear in KOFXIII. That is not correct.

    Every effort is being taken to ensure KOFXIII delivers the kind of online experience the series' fans expect and deserve.

    The game was just announced this past week. Please, have some patience as we process your feedback, address your concerns, and prepare to roll out all the info you're eagerly anticipating between now and the game's release."

    So at least Atlus is trying and sources like Gamespot misinterpreted what was said.
    As of right now, there is no proof that the XII netcode is being recycled/modified, so no point dwelling on those rumors.
    remember how they messed up the us release of ah1 too?

    How did they mess up AH1 exactly? The only issue worth mentioning was the Metal Arcana glitch.
    Compared to how some other company handled the AH2 port, AH1 was next to flawless by comparison.
    FIGHTING VIPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Syxx573Syxx573 Syxx-Pacalypse Joined: Posts: 8,911
    the took out a lot of the voice acting

    i dunno why a company that publishes weeboo games exclusively would do something like that
  • affinityaffinity Joined: Posts: 1,111
    the took out a lot of the voice acting

    i dunno why a company that publishes weeboo games exclusively would do something like that

    oh the voices thing is because of Sony's policy. Publishers have no choice but to follow the rules:

    If a game is sold for the PS2/PS3 in the North America on disk, it must either include english voices or the foreign voices must be removed (the only exception they would allow is stuff like the Japanese voice clips during a match.)

    Even if Atlus invested more money to provide English voiceovers to preserve the Japanese voices option, AH1 sales would still be pretty much the same.
    FIGHTING VIPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • DukeSharpDukeSharp Duke# - Italy Joined: Posts: 337
    the backgrounds in this game are awesome, and hilarious too.
    Offline is better.
  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This game is pretty fun, now that I finally got to play it.
    Fighting game tutorials, matches, and funny stuff:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/novriltataki
    Former account:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/playtowin
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I finally got a chance to play it. How? As Malcom X said "By any means necessary."

    Am I the only one who can't get HCB/HCF motions out consistently? QCF and SRK motions are perfectly fine and responsive. I just can do HCB/HCF motions. Weird.

    The sprites are just like 3S, only smoother. I assume when 3SO is out the two games will look about the same, except for the cinematic supers present in KOF 13.

    I'm not feeling Neo-Max mode. It's nothing like a CC system like in the Alpha series or even Yun's Genei Jin. It looks like you have to do a very specific series of specials, and the timing has to be just right. Very hard. For good reason of course.

    Drive-Cancelling favors some characters more than others. More research is needed.

    I have mixed feelings. I like the EX moves. But there's something about it that leaves me underwhelmed.
    STOMP!
  • LabanLaban Ang Tikbalang Joined: Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    It's called Hyper Drive mode and it works pretty much just like 02's Max mode, just it will automatically do the run up for you.
  • ShiawaseShiawase Joined: Posts: 270
    I'm new to King of Fighters (13 will be my first one) and I have a question. When making a team what should I be thinking about when picking my characters? I want to start with a team of Elisabeth/K'/Mature but I don't know if that would be any good. I mostly picked the characters that I like lol.
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's called Hyper Drive mode and it works pretty much just like 02's Max mode, just it will automatically do the run up for you.

    I thought both names were acceptable? Anywho... I really, really like Ralph. Probably the most bad ass version of Ralph in any KOF. He's got a decent AA, a Dive attack that's relatively safe. His QCF+Punch is an easy cancel into whatever you want. I like how he can do CD, and then follow up with QCF+Punch which leaves him relatively safe, pushes the opponent back, and takes a good chunk off their guard.

    Hwai Jai is also pretty bad ass. I think he's better than Joe in a lot of ways. It's a shame that retards will think he's a ripoff of Adon.

    King is also really, really good. Her Supers are okay at best but everything else she has is very nice.

    Not feeling the god tiers. K' just feels very nub-friendly. I'm not digging Raiden right now, just because I can't do HCB/HCF motions on *ahem* this version. I feel like his game is based around getting that Drop Kick combo. Kula also feels like easy mode. Liz... I don't know.

    I think my team would be setup like this: 1st character Hwai Jai or Kyo. Both can do big damage, zone, etc. 2nd would be King, just a solid character. 3rd Ralph so he gets all the Drive Cancel and Super meter for massive damage.
    STOMP!
  • TheAbsolutionTheAbsolution Joined: Posts: 737
    Elisabeth and K' are very good, dunno where Mature stands.
  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Nothing Comes Easy Joined: Posts: 1,917
    I'm new to King of Fighters (13 will be my first one) and I have a question. When making a team what should I be thinking about when picking my characters? I want to start with a team of Elisabeth/K'/Mature but I don't know if that would be any good. I mostly picked the characters that I like lol.
    play k' point on that team as lizzy and mature both like meter. i would probably put lizzy last to round it out, since she has great comeback potential due to turning little hits like air-to-airs and AAs into big damage
    nignagnog: minority report
    nignagnog: you got punished for your future crimes
    BossG: anybody that's black already suffers under pre-crime laws
  • LabanLaban Ang Tikbalang Joined: Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    I'm new to King of Fighters (13 will be my first one) and I have a question. When making a team what should I be thinking about when picking my characters? I want to start with a team of Elisabeth/K'/Mature but I don't know if that would be any good. I mostly picked the characters that I like lol.

    Shiawase, just pick the characters you like and just play them. Everyone is solid.

    Typically I'd recommend Iori/Zoning Character/Grappler Character (Clark) in other King of Fighters games to new people to understand game fundamentals. Iori previously had almost every tool and could play rushdown and more passive zoning but the areas he controls in the air are really specific and you have to pay better mind to spacing where and how you hop or jump and which normal you will use to control that space, much unlike K' who could just j.D all over the place willy nilly. Then I would recommend a zoning character such as Kensou or Joe due to the fact that those characters typically have more floaty hops and don't really do hop pressure but have a good deal controlling ground space and hop space, forcing most opponents having to commit to a full jump. In that case, most zoning characters don't usually have a good vertical anti-air normal that controls right above them, which is good against full jumps, but have to either rely on their good jump normals and floaty hops and jumps to control that space. Then I'd recommend a grappler so one could understand how grappler okizeme works and how to really set up for tick throws and make the opponent want to alternate guard. Once you establish the fact that the opponent will want to alternate guard, then you work in frametraps and staggered low attacks to make them want to consistently block low and forget about alternate guarding again. In this case I would recommend characters such as Raiden, Clark, and Goro then later move on to characters such as Maxima and Vice.

    In the case of KOFXIII, I'd say the best new "Iori" would actually be Kyo. His j.D has been nerfed compared to previous entries due to the fact that he could no longer use the tip of his j.D to hit crouching opponents, the only opponents Kyo could hit crouching with his j.D are the larger characters such as Raiden, Goro, and Maxima. So although j.D is a good horizontal tool for space control, he'd have to carefully know when to do it since the opponent could just crouch under it and do a cr.B or cr.D as Kyo lands and Kyo is forced to eat a full combo. In this case though, Kyo has all the fundamental normals to control space: st.A for hops, cr.C for jumps and hops, st.D for counter poking grounded attacks as st.D is a really good sobat, cl.C when you run under an opponent to anti-air him, j.D for strictly horizontal air control, j.B for almost strictly downward vertical control (jump-in), and a good fireball that acts like an extension of Kyo's sweep and works as a decent poke but is susceptible to hops just like Old Iori's previous fireball. In any case, Kyo could zone and rushdown quite well and has all the fundamental tools, but as a character he isn't skewed into a more one dimensional character like K' who has obvious strengths in a few particular areas while others are a bit more lacking such as having a good cr.C for vertical anti air but he could just keep hop j.D all day controlling air and ground space not leaving much for variation or discipline.

    For zoning in KOFXIII, I'd say Athena, Kensou, and Joe would be good beginning zoning characters. The thing with KOFXIII is that zoning characters have been given more standard hops and more tools to actually do longer hitconfirms into knockdown special attacks, and do more standard rushdown than in previous games; in this case making more homogenized playstyles for better or worse. I'd say Kensou's basic zoning game is still left intact and has relatively good zoning with his ever so frustrating fireball. In most cases in the past and still now, Kensou's fireball as well as Athena's were difficult to hop unless your character had a floaty hop as well. So generally, most characters had to commit to a roll or a full jump to get around the fireball but could be left susceptible to an anti air or a reaction throw/punish on a roll. In the case of KOFXIII, Kensou, Athena, and Joe could still do it and one could use these characters to force bad jumps and bad rolls. Using these characters help in making one react to rolls better as one is able to force more bad rolls. With Athena, she acquired a new cl.D attack that works like Iori's and Kyo's cl.C and she could actually run underneath opponents' jumps and anti-air them vertically, which is really good. Kensou has a good, fast st.D that catches a lot of jumps and hops. Joe controls a good deal of ground and hop space with just hurricane upper pressure and force an opponent to try to roll or jump, though he has to do something a bit more proactive when it comes to anti-airing full jumps such as having to neutral jump j.CD or hop backwards and j.CD or j.D.

    When it comes to grappler okizeme, one has to understand that an opponent can't jump or really do anything if there is a really good meaty attack overlapping him. In this case, a person using a grappler could scare the opponent to staying on the ground to block or roll an attack and eat a command grab; or get an opponent scared of a command grab on okizeme and try to jump out out of it, but will get meatied on oki and get hitconfirmed into another command grab. Good beginning grapplers to understand this kind of game are Clark, Raiden, and Goro. Each have damaging throws that lead into good frame advantage for having a good okizeme game and have great aerial control such as Clark having j.D, j.CD, df.A, far C, and st.A while Goro has df.C, st.A, far C, j.CD, j.D and Raiden has EX DP, st.A, j.CD. Not only do they have good command throws and anti-airs and confirms into command throws, these characters also have good fast low attacks that either confirm into command grabs or they have good fast sweeps that of course knockdown and lead into another mix-up.

    In the case of Elizabeth/K'/Mature, it's a solid enough team to win with especially with K' on there, but I wouldn't say you'd really learn the fundamental game solidly to be able to understand KOF as a whole and being able to understand other characters and limitations nor be able to transition into another KOF. Elizabeth is a good solid rushdown characters though and she'd be a good starting character akin to Kyo, but lacks that one aspect of playing full screen zoning that Kyo could do; but in return she could easily nullify zoning with her qcf+A. From my testing so far, Mature is a somewhat decent zoning character in KOFXIII as she was previously a really solid zoning character in previous games such as 98 og, 02um, and etc. What hurts her game mostly in KOFXIII is that her fireball isn't as wide as it used to be that makes it a bit easier for the opponent to jump over it in more angles than he could have in the past. You could look at this as an encouragement for the opponent to try to jump more often giving Mature more opportunities to anti-air, but so far it doesn't seem to give her as much as an advantage she had in the past. K' I would say to pick up in the beginning if you really just want to win. Otherwise I'd replace him with either Kyo or a grappling character.

    If you really just want to pick these characters due to aesthetics or whatever, by all means do so. No character is "bad" or "mediocre" in this game. In regards to winning, you have a solid team. If you really want to "learn KOF" or learn fundamentals, I would recommend other characters at first. If you don't want to play those other characters, that is fine too.

    When it comes to picking a team, it's not as minute or specific as Marvel vs. Capcom 3 or anything. You could pick the characters you like. What it comes down to is to understand what kind of character you have, fully understand what kind of gameplan that character follows, and to be able to play out any match up that character has. Otherwise the ordering is just based on meter management and which of your characters really needs meter or not. In previous games such as KOF 98, characters such as Iori or Benimaru don't really need meter to win so you could put those characters in front while characters such as Kyo don't really have damaging combos off of low light attacks unless he did have meter so he'd be better played in the middle or last. But then you wanted to avoid match ups such as Benimaru vs Chris or Takuma vs Leona as Chris could slide under pretty much all of Benimaru's great standing attacks and jump-ins or Leona could run underneath Takuma's fireballs. So ordering could affect that but inevitably one would have to just play the match up so most people just still order by meter management rather than match ups. Does it particularly matter if you have a team of all grapplers, zoners, or high/low rushdown characters? No, it just comes down to understanding of the game and knowing meter management.

    With KOFXIII, most of the top players just play easy, high damage characters that do everything such as K', Raiden, and Shen Woo. Shoutouts to the few guys that try other characters such as Gaku with Athena, Haregoro with Joe, Anime Sommelier with Terry, and the others guys that stick with Ralf, Ash, Maxima, Vice, and other hidden gems.
  • FlyMikeFlyMike Rsk Rating $$$ Joined: Posts: 3,091
    Prob stupid question, but is Shen Woo "easier" to use in XIII? I know he's good because I see so many matches of him and in alot of them the Shen player is down then comes backs off retarded shit. I'm plan on running him in this so I'm picking him up and messing around with him in XII but alot of his links and followups are so iffy to land. Never used him in older games but didn't know he was so..... execution heavy lol.

    Right now I'm looking at Shen Woo/Raiden/Robert and later on I might sub Raiden out for Mai, Yuri, or Liz(i didn't like her in XII but loved her in XI and she's beefy in XIII). Just depends. Thoughts?

    Anybody got the most recent tier-list after last patch?
    Flown Michaels.
  • LabanLaban Ang Tikbalang Joined: Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    Shen Woo is the opposite of execution heavy. You're most probably thinking of his qcf+k follow ups after all of his moves in XII which are pretty tight. Shen Woo is an easy straight forward character that has the basics but lacks knockdown attack after crouching light attacks. To make up for it, he has command grab mix ups after empty hops and in general.

    As I said before, all the characters in the game are viable and are really solid. Post patch, there hasn't really been a tier list. If anything the top 3 characters used are K'/Raiden/Kula and a toss up between Kyo/Andy/Shen Woo following behind the top 3. It's usually just some combination of those characters due to the ease of play, could usually both zone and rush down, and easy damage.

    Elizabeth is a better version of XI Elizabeth so go for it. Yuri is also a pretty good all around character that doesn't get much usage in uploaded videos but is a general favorite anyways since she has a decent enough hit confirm combo and Hyper Drive combos, air throw option selects, good sweep, good qcf+p and qcb+p. I'll just reiterate, everyone is good in the game and one should might as well learn as many characters as one could.
  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    any zoners in this game?
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  • TheAbsolutionTheAbsolution Joined: Posts: 737
    any zoners in this game?
    I'm a scrub at KOF so I only know of Athena, but Laban mentioned Kensou and Joe. Mature had good zoning in the earlier games, not sure about now.
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Probably Duo Lon, Takuma, the shoto-like characters.

    Seriously, is anyone else having trouble doing HCB/HCF moves? I can't even do Kyo's Super and that's basic as hell and I can do that 9 times out of 10 in OG KOF 98.
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  • FeezFeez Joined: Posts: 77
    I want to avoid the subject since it is against forum rules, but I too have issues. Are you on pad? Similar issues were present back with BBCS but they were cleared up when console version hit. I haven't tried this on stick yet but I recall things being much easier on stick w/BBCS. Feel free to edit this post Noc/ry if it's going too far.

    As for Mature yes she can still zone but not as good as in 98/02 due to her fireball nerf. It is much smaller and the edge tip is missing which would make it hard to jump, but now it's not as hard; still she can zone moderately well and her rush down is fairly decent.

    I'd say to try out Andy actually.

    Also yes there isn't really a tier list and I believe those ratio matches are based on character usage and not tier placing or anything that. K' and Raiden are top but after that it's arguable. Most of the characters in XIII are easy to pick up and solid enough, as Laban mentioned.
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  • EDDUREDDUR Moluccan Joined: Posts: 970
    King is a zoning character but can be used offensive as Armando has shown past weekend.
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  • NocturnalNocturnal SNK Supporter Joined: Posts: 2,964 mod
    Please don't mention anything about input issues with you all know what. Try to keep it in PMs to avoid anymore talk about it. If anyone needs help on it you can PM me. Keep the thread clean thanks.
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  • LabanLaban Ang Tikbalang Joined: Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, most zoning characters in the game got a lot more tools such as lower, faster hops and more downward jump-ins to actually do hop pressure. Traditionally, zoners were mainly playing a strong neutral game and then pressed the advantage with blockstrings and traps once going on the offensive. So zoning characters were more passive aggressive than turtley in KOF, similar to how Guile does corner pressure in ST.

    Duo Lon is more of a rush down character with great high/low mix ups that include his j.6B aerial chain combos and the ability to confirm his rekkas from jump-ins and empty hop lows and get another mix up after doing his rekka > teleport. Although his extending limbs are quite similar to Dhalsim's, it's more of an extended tool in controlling his neutral game and checking the opponent's counter approach rather than for straight up turtling since he only has two stretched limb attacks on the ground excluding the EX versions, and only two extended limb attacks in the air also baring the EX versions. Coupled with the fact that his cr.C isn't quite the fastest cr.C in the game to anti-air vertically, he isn't quite designed to be a zoner or turtle. He already doesn't do much damage as it is, so he has to make up for it by actually landing rekka combos and going for mix ups compensate. If he just keeps doing limbs, he's not going to be rewarded as much as if he was played on straight mix up offense. His jump-ins and hop arcs are more designed for rushdown so he's of that kind of character.

    Takuma isn't quite the zoning character as he used to be like in 98 or 02um Ura Takuma. Takuma's fireball has quite the increase on start up and recovery compared to past incarnations and it's more easy to jump over his fireballs than ever before. What Takuma got now though is the ability to confirm Crouching Bs into an actual knockdown without needing meter and is fitted with a command grab now. Add to the fact SNKP retained his really low hop arc and his great j.D that is able to cross up well, Takuma is also suited more as a rushdown character this iteration. His fireball is more of a means to check and balance the ability of zoning characters have upon him.

    King is a zoning character in the sense that her projectile is really easy to hop over and encourages the opponent to do so. In return, King has some of the best anti-air normals and air-to-air normals in the game; being: Far C, cl.C, cr.C, st.A, st.D, df.D (slide), j.B (up forward aerial control), j.D (downward horizontal aerial control), and j.CD (both upward and downward horizontal control at the expense of overhead properties). Add in Surprise Rose, EX Surprise Rose, EX Trap Shot, Tornado Kick, EX Tornado Kick, and her newly added aerial Venom Strikes, King controls a vast amount of the aerial space that forces the opponent to take a more grounded approach. With that ground approach, King is able to answer it with Venom Strikes. In a sense, King is more well suited for passive aggressive offense in most games due to the fact that her j.D had to hit late in the past because it came out almost instantly and hitting it early on an opponent doesn't net a combo. If she has to hit late with it, then the opponent could just do the usual timing on the Option Select st.C/D and hit her out before she lands. Every other attack she had didn't really have that well of a downward hitbox, but her hop arc was more standard than characters such as Athena/Joe/Kensou. In regards to KOFXIII, I'd say she has the ability to play a more hop oriented game with the homogenization zoning characters undertook to make them more "rushdown" but the old passive aggressive zoning style works just as well.

    I wouldn't say the Shoto characters are that much of zoning characters though in the same sense that Takuma isn't really a zoning character in the game. They could zone in the old Street Fighter sense but aren't quite optimally played that way given how the subsystems in KOF work and how dps are generally quite weaker and not as rewarding as anti-air normals. With how these Shoto characters are designed, they're not quite suited to zoning and not obviously designed to zone to the extent that characters such as Athena are designed.

    Although this character could do both actually, I'd say Ash is a pretty effective zoning character since he's the "Guile" Character. But now he's fitted with Qcfx2 supers, has a cancelable sweep that's not a silly Guile double sweep, great hop in jumping normals such as j.A and j.D, easy hitconfirm combos, control space well with his "Sonic Boom", and could do things such as charge his "Flash Kick" while running and do something like: Run > cr.B x3 xx d_u+B. He's interesting because he also is able to control the airspace quite well almost to the point that Iori could do so in previous games. Ash has a similar j.B in comparison to Iori and is able to limit grounded and aerial approaches with j.B and j.D. If an opponent tries to approach by landing above Ash's hop with a full jump or super jump, Ash has a more up forward air to air with j.C. Ash then has a great cr.C and quickly charged "Flash Kicks" to anti-air all the other angles an opponent may try to approach from, also noting that Ash still has a good st.A and Far C. Ash is also able to retreat, approach, and counter poke grounded normals and advances with his sobat attacks quite similarly to Guile; in this case though, both backwards and forwards sobat kicks are done by doing b+B and b+D respectively, giving Ash the time to charge his "Sonic Boom". Add in the fact he has an easy activation super that juggles the opponent, gives free cancel properties to Ash's special attacks, and the the ability to reduce charge times to 0 is really scary. He could do this super even off of his normal hitconfirms. Then he's given the opportunity to use an additional super in this mode that seals the opponent's command normals, specials, and super for a limited about of time. For zoning and offense, this character really has it well. He is just not as easy or one dimensional in aerial and ground control like K' is and doesn't do as much damage as K' does for the work Ash has to put in.

    So yeah Tataki, there are zoning characters in this game. Either they became weaker, or they became stronger due to the ability to rushdown more making them less zoning-like. I'd say the most apparent zoning characters that remain primarily zoning but were given the best buffs are Athena, Kensou, and Ash so far with Joe trailing right behind.
  • tatakitataki Non-SF4/MVC3 FG news: twitter.com/#!/novriltataki Joined: Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    so yeah about zoning
    Kinda saddens me to read that but thanks for the very informative response. I learned a lot for it. :)
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  • LouiscipherLouiscipher The man you love to hate Joined: Posts: 8,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Although this character could do both actually, I'd say Ash is a pretty effective zoning character since he's the "Guile" Character. But now he's fitted with Qcfx2 supers, has a cancelable sweep that's not a silly Guile double sweep, great hop in jumping normals such as j.A and j.D, easy hitconfirm combos, control space well with his "Sonic Boom", and could do things such as charge his "Flash Kick" while running and do something like: Run > cr.B x3 xx d_u+B. He's interesting because he also is able to control the airspace quite well almost to the point that Iori could do so in previous games. Ash has a similar j.B in comparison to Iori and is able to limit grounded and aerial approaches with j.B and j.D. If an opponent tries to approach by landing above Ash's hop with a full jump or super jump, Ash has a more up forward air to air with j.C. Ash then has a great cr.C and quickly charged "Flash Kicks" to anti-air all the other angles an opponent may try to approach from, also noting that Ash still has a good st.A and Far C. Ash is also able to retreat, approach, and counter poke grounded normals and advances with his sobat attacks quite similarly to Guile; in this case though, both backwards and forwards sobat kicks are done by doing b+B and b+D respectively, giving Ash the time to charge his "Sonic Boom". Add in the fact he has an easy activation super that juggles the opponent, gives free cancel properties to Ash's special attacks, and the the ability to reduce charge times to 0 is really scary. He could do this super even off of his normal hitconfirms. Then he's given the opportunity to use an additional super in this mode that seals the opponent's command normals, specials, and super for a limited about of time. For zoning and offense, this character really has it well. He is just not as easy or one dimensional in aerial and ground control like K' is and doesn't do as much damage as K' does for the work Ash has to put in.

    Ash is probably the easiest character in the game. He's the most like a 3S character. All of his Supers are Double QCF, and his charge time is almost nothing. Anyone good with fundamentals would wreck with Ash.
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  • JackTenrac!JackTenrac! Dollar Yen - Level 304 Joined: Posts: 2,708
    How bad is the Mai nerfing? I'm hearing it's Real Bout like.
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  • LavamaLavama Joined: Posts: 8
    I honestly have no idea. This is the first on the Mai nerfing. How's King doing?
  • rogueyoshirogueyoshi Nothing Comes Easy Joined: Posts: 1,917
    How bad is the Mai nerfing? I'm hearing it's Real Bout like.
    nerfed from what? shes never been exceptionally good in any kof and here is no exception. shes not bad by any means, she just lacks some cheap stuff.
    I honestly have no idea. This is the first on the Mai nerfing. How's King doing?
    king is pretty mediocre too but has really good normals, the best of which probably being far B, which is fast, goes far and leads into so much stuff pressure and combo wise
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  • LavamaLavama Joined: Posts: 8
    So that makes her pretty much what I remember. Nothing special, but special. Alright, seems like I didn't need to worry about her being CvS2 level (Bad, but bad enough to be good). Thanks for the info!
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