Greetings fellow Honda players, it's been a while!
Some time ago(back when I was playing the game), I was looking for foolproof ways of getting safe jumps with the sumo wrestler. I came up with a bunch of stuff that I'm sure lots of you know but maybe some of you don't, thing is I haven't seen it posted here yet so here I go(but I'm positive I've read at least one of these setups somewhere here).
There's an excellent safe jump post by 3nigmat1c
and even if it's balrog-focused, much of it applies to everyone.
- Most safe jumps won't work against reversal special attacks with a 3 frame(or less) startup, like most shoto shoryukens, some supers and ultras. That's just how the SF4 engine works.
- A safe jump setup should work with all the cast except for Sagat, Cammy and Blanka, since they take a frame(or two, in Blanka's case) more to wakeup. SSF4 Adon took 7 frames less than everyone else to wakeup(yeah, WTF), in AE that's no longer the case.
- Also some special/super/ultra throws with strike invincibility can avoid the safe jump attack and grab you out of your recovery frames on landing. Some anti air super/ultra throws will do the same. It's good to study that data whether you stick to Honda or not.
- Safe jumps can be escaped using backdashes, FADC(absorbing the jump in hit and then dashing), counters or teleporting/EX rolling away. You should be ready for that and all the character specific escapes/reversals attacks. Option selects are handy on most cases, altho Honda does not shine on that department.
I'll go right through the setups but I have to warn you guys that this is a WIP and everyone is welcome to correct me(and my english) at anytime.
#1 - (opponent in corner) regular throw, dash, c.MP, neutral jump HK
It's a regular safe jump setup, you can mash the dash, plink the c.MP and hold the neutral jump. If Ibuki
do nothing, the nj.HK will miss, but if they block/crouch/whatever it'll connect. Yeah, funky hitboxes... You have to replace the c.MP with a standing MP for it to work with Sagat
. And if you're playing Super, replace the c.MP with a LK for Adon
. Same principle can be applied mid screen for a regular throw, dash, c.MP, neutral jump into new jersey HP(drifting backwards) for 4 frame reversals and onwards. Due to the nature of most of the srk's hitboxes if done properly it will "work" with 3 frame reversals but it won't hit them out of their SRKs, you just will be able to block. Also with that setup variation if they do nothing or if they crouch the nj.HP won't hit them. They have stand and block for it to connect. I found that in some tests there was a "sweet spot" while drifting mid air with the HP where Honda
could block Ryu
's MP and EX SRKs but it could stuff his LP and HP SRKs, and it wouldn't work the same against Akuma
's SRKs so it's not that reliable if you want to hit them, still it's a safe bait and it can be used on some people. You can use another variation miscreen too replacing the nj.HK with a nj.LP, but it's not as effective, it's harder to combo aftewards on reaction or OS anything. For most of these safe jump setups, you can block 3 frame reversals(shoryukens) if you don't attack while in mid air. Finally, I thought for a long time that the setup was with a c.MK instead, lol.
#2 - (midscreen) regular throw, dash, c.MK, crossup jumping forwards MK
Similar to the first setup(and its variations), its main drawback is that it doesn't work on all the cast, it only works on:
(use s.MP instead of c.MK), Zangief
, El Fuerte
(use c.MP instead of c.MK), Adon
(if super/chocolate: use c.LK instead of c.MP)
- On Ibuki
, Dee Jay
the crossup whiffs if they do nothing or if they try to block it and it will only hit them if they crouch, but why would they block crouching a jump in?
, Chun Li
, Fei Long
don't even have to block it, since it will whiff on them even if they are crouching. It's still a safe jump so if chars that it won't work on try to wake up reversal honda you will be able to block it. Of course, for 3 frame reversals you must empty jump to try to bait and punish reversals.
#3 - (midscreen) back throw, s.MP, jumping forwards HP/HK
Good news! for the back throw midscreen you have a really, really good safe jump setup for characters with regular wakeup time that even works against SRKs! Due to honda's positioning, it'll make ALL shoto SRKs whiff or be blocked. For Sagat
replace the s.MP with a throw whiff. Rejoice!
#4 - (honda in corner) back throw, cs.MP, jumping forwards MK
If you're in the corner, a back throw will get you the best positioning(opponent in corner), but if for some wild reason you want to jump into the corner with a safe jump crossup(that works for every character with regular wakeup timing and with a 4 frame reversal and onwards) just go for this setup. It will hit everyone except Dhalsim
(more on that on the post below) and the shotos(3 frames autocorrect SRK will get your arse everytime). As always, you can empty jump to bait and punish those SRKs but if you got them cornered I don't see why you would want to try to bait something AND end up cornered at the same time but the option is there(well there's one reason, read more about this on the post below). For Sagat
replace the s.MP with a s.HK(it'll be the close version too). Ibuki
can jump up(yeah, wtf) and escape the crossup. This setup won't work on Juri
or Fei Long
#5 - (anywhere) sweep, c.LP, jumping forwards MK/HP/HK
From a sweep you can use this setup. It's better from a distance, since if you're right next to the opponent you have to use a crossup and the crossup will only hit Ryu
, El Fuerte
The main use for this would be from max range to mid range(like, after a far focus) since you can go for a regular safe jumping HP/HK that works on anyone with regular wake up timing. It's really not practical to go and try to get the specific range for a sweep into a crossup, it's a character specific sweet spot.
#6 - (anywhere) many loosely timed variations
If you feel like learning timings yourself, you can regular throw, dash, walk a bit backwards and forward jump into air MK. If you don't want to crossup, you can backdash, walk forwards a little bit(or mash s.HK and then walk back a little bit) and jump forward +HP/HK for a non crossup safe jump. About the first one I mentioned: try to learn the timing first since the space you have to go back is character specific if you're aiming for a crossup(i.e. a safe jump crossup on Guy
won't crossup Fei Long
or will miss him entirely and will hit Zangief
as a safe jump). You can learn the timings and make them work but it's not an exact science like the other setups so keep that in mind.
I really shouldn't be posting this since it needs more testing(like I said before) but here we go. For regular wakeup timing:
: it gives you a hard knockdown of 26 frames. It's too few to have a safe jump.
: ok, things get ugly here. Assuming you land it on a grounded(not airborne) opponent, the best I have afterwards is jump forward, walk a liiiiitle bit or make a little pause, jump forward again +HP/HK. A variation that gives you a similar situation to the safe jump setup #3 is dash forward x2, walk a liitle bit forward, jumping forward HP. Both are hard timings to get consistently but practice makes perfection!
- Super(near corner)
: After a super you can do a jump forward, the same tiny walk and a neutral jumping HK if you're close enough. It all depends on how close you both are to the corner.
: The most consistent setup I got is after super, backdash, c.MP, jumping forward HP/HK to keep the opponent in the corner. And if you wanna go for a crossup IIRC after a super, dash, c.HP and jump forwards MK will make many reversals whiff(character specific).
- Ultra 1
: this is easier since it always drags them into the corner. After ultra, c.MP, neutral jump will give you a so so safe jump, because at that range nj.HK whiffs on many characters. You can go for a nj.HP drifted backwards or a nj. LP. Each one has pros/cons I talked about in the safe jump setup #1. If you want a crossup tho(and to get yourself cornered), c.MP, forward jumping MK will work wonders. It's a female dog to test anything ultra 1 related because the long animation eats up all the dummy recording time
BUT some fake crossup setups work here too!
- Ultra 2
: Depending on your screen position, a little walk forward/back into jumping MK/HK will do the trick. Yeah, no "real" setup, sorry, we need more frames there. You can do some not-so-safe stuff with MK/HK buttslam tho: if you cancel them from an overhead, since it moves Honda's frame back before being active it also can make a MK buttslam(which is a crossup in that situation) NOT a crossup or to make a HK buttslam(which whiffs in that situation) to hit.
: the size of the opponent and its state (standing, crouching, attacking in most cases also modifies the hurtbox size) change the setup required for a safe jump. A crouching small opponent needs 2 very fast s.LKs and a jumping forward MK that might crossup or not(character specific). Depending on the size/state you have to switch the 2 s.LKs for a sc.HP(if you're close enough for it to come out) or a whiffed throw.
(second hit): they also depend on the opponent state/size at the moment the 2nd hit of the buttslam connects, but their main weakness is that if the opponent techs the wakeup, they are rendered useless. If the opponent forgets to tech against Abel
after a c.LP xx EX buttslam(after HP/EX hands) you can do a dash, c.LP, jumping forward MK. In the same situation against Balrog
after an EX buttslam(after HP hands) if he doesn't tech you can do a c.HP into crossup j.MK, altho it will whiff if he crouches and does nothing(very rare). Against many other grounded opponents if you're close enough after an EX buttslam you can do a c.HP, neutral jumping HK.
PS: I have nothing against Ken... he just makes an excellent test subject for safe jumps since he has 3 AND 4 frame shoryukens(LP, HP vs MP, EX).
Unblockables and Fake Crossups(or "Unblockables" or "reverse block") Setups
I have tried to block the fake crossup setups and the unblockable setups many times, but seems like I suck at execution because I can't just frame block any of them. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be done at all. Theory says they can be just frame blocked, so let's go by that and not by my many attempts. Because it works for other similar unblockable setups with other characters it means it should work here too. Altho it's really hard to do.
Also, all of the unblockables and fake crossups, as almost any other jumping attack, can be focus attack absorbed and dash canceled out of. This is not easy but it's way more viable than the just frame stuff, and it can even be done with online lag involved. However, in most cases, if the dash input is made too fast, the opponent will (back)dash right back to Honda. Which, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, can be heavily punished, so even while unblockables/fake crossups have a universal escape, it doesn't mean that the danger is over for the opponent since they still have the (back)dash recovery to account for.
DISCLAIMER: When I say Unblockable, I mean an unblockable LIKE THIS ONE
, not this fireball - FADC into ultra unblockable
. And what I call Fake Crossup is a crossup jump in attack that you can only reverse block - i.e. block NOT as a crossup, altho the attack is going to crossup and leave honda behind the opponent in most cases. And by "in most cases" I mean that sometimes, depending on the character you're doing the setups on, the attack will crossup(or not, "teleporting" you back to the side you started your jump on) based on if the attack was blocked(or not). This opens a nice can of worms from a backthrow into corner for Honda!
IMPORTANT: 99.9% of the setups presented below ARE safe jumps against almost everyone(including shotos) because if they attack(reversal or not, 3 frame shoryuken or not) due to Honda's positioning the attack will go the wrong way. That means that in most cases you don't even have to block and you can react to a whiffed shoryuken, for example. In some cases, they can still focus attack dash cancel out of the corner. In other cases, if Honda's jump in attack connects, that will push them(sometimes "teleport" them) towards the corner.
Safest Jump Setup - (Honda in corner) back throw, cs.HP, jumping forwards MK
Now, as I said before, Dhalsim
gave me issues with the cornered back throw setup. At first I thought "seems like he gets up 1 frame slower, or another case of wonky hitboxes", so I tried the same setup as Sagat
and it worked for him too. But a mistake(like many others here, counting frames or on execution) lead me to this(yet another) setup on Dhalsim
. The thing that makes this setup interesting is not that it's a safe jump per se(in fact, strictly going by the numbers, it's not), but the fact that when the opponent tries to reversal you (special, super, ultra, you name it) it goes the wrong way EVERY TIME
. The only escape is to focus, absorb the jump in attack and then dash to the center of the screen(or "forward dash" in some cases). Looks like the back throw puts opponents into the corner in a way that honda won't cross them up until a couple of frames before landing. The only bad news is that it doesn't work with Honda
, Chun Li
and T. Hawk
, works just fine with EVERYONE ELSE
, altho for Sagat
after the throw just mash two s.LK instead of the sc.HP. Oni
and Evil Ryu
's EX SRKs will hit you tho, every other reversal shoryuken will whiff or will be beaten. The key is to time correctly the crossup j.MK so if they don't reversal you the wrong way it'll hit them. Be careful, tho - if you misstime the j.MK in certain characters, they'll be able to block it BOTH ways! Honda
also doesn't has to be all the way with his back on the corner because the back throw animation carries him some distance backwards (allowing the close HP) so even at almost half screen from the corner you'll get the setup to work(and even further if you have an opponent with a fat hitbox). Finally, this setup is relevant because besides being a "true" safe jump setup that works with 3 frame reversals and that it also beats ground throws with startup invincibility that beat other safe jump setups is the fact that it acts as an option to create a mixup of sorts using the fake unblockables: once your opponent gets the message that you're doing a fake crossup, you can do a true crossup (using the same setup) to keep him guessing which side he has to block. I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself but I'm trying to be as clear as possible.
Continued on the post below!