AEMAKOTO Guide and Q&A: Ask all your questions here!

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  • gengen EX3 veteran Joined: Posts: 705
    well, unfortunately, if the rumors about her ex fuki hitting grounded are true, the debate on what to use after karakusa will be over!
  • Killer_JigglypuffKiller_Jigglypuff Trying really hard Joined: Posts: 7,831
    SFA is definitely a prequel to SF2. Guile's whole motivation is SF2 is that Bison killed Charlie.
    CFN: SpitefulBanette
  • TheKaiten7TheKaiten7 Joined: Posts: 1,829
    corner push is still very important. dhalsim in the corner with makoto in his face is damn near 10-0 lol. that being said ex oroshi is the best combo ender for getting safejumps/set ups/unblockables. work on learning the corner push though. stun will always be there. iirc blocked lk/mk tsurugi at any height is pubishable by spd, hk done near instant isn't punishable by spd... all versions are punishable by u1 from zangief. there is no + ground with a tsurugi. idk about ex though
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited July 2013
    Jay M wrote: »
    I have another frame question. I apologize in advance if it's there and I don't see it.

    Her advantage and disadvantage for her Air Tsurugi doesn't seem to be there. What's or where's the data on that?

    And thanks again for the note on her forward throw being good for inflicting stun damage. I didn't even consider looking at that. About a week ago, I noticed her EX Oroshi does more stun than a EX h-Hayate. Started using that a little more after a standing fierce. I was watching videos and was wondering why people chose that instead of pushing em into the corner.

    The reason it isn't listed is because (while engine wise its an exact number) it's more of a range of frame data--that isn't exact for the player. When you jump in on someone and attack there are landing frames. Basically, when you attack in the air your attack has to be cancelled when you land on the ground otherwise you'd be sitting mid air until your attack ended and it would look wonky. I think there are 11 landing frames(confirm?). That's another reason a meaty jump in roundhouse can lead to some of the most damaging combos in the game. If you hit at the end of your attack you've already gone through a portion of the recovery which means that you can make something that is typically unsafe, safe, or even plus frames.

    So as far as Tsurugi goes, the closer you are the more of the recovery you're going to have to deal with and also the higher off the ground the less amount of the frames of the attack will be cancelled by landing. Also, you'll never really be able to exactly recreate the frame data of a Tsurugi with a moving opponent basically. Does that make sense?
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • Jay MJay M PuertoRicanStyL Joined: Posts: 139
    edited July 2013
    Yep. Makes perfect sense to me. It's pretty much always changing (unless you hit in the exact same spot on the same character).

    I always seem to feel like I can keep the pressure up when my IAT gets blocked. But I think it's just a mix of an online thing, and x person just not swinging right after the block stun. Cause I took it into the dojo, and while it's always changing, an IAT (at the height mine were) seems to be at least a -5 or 6, cause I kept getting jabbed out of my jab attempt after it got blocked. And thrown.. I was pretty much right next to myself when blocking the IAT.. Didn't try EX though. I only messed with it for a couple minutes.

    But anyways. I know it's not safe to keep attacking now, hahah. I know there's a lot more stuff to take into account on all that though. Like how far away they were when they blocked and what/the properties of the attack they might have tried. Yada yada. Probably the safe bet to just back dash if it gets blocked. Then mixing up the options from there after they think I might back dash again after another blocked IAT.

    Thanks!
    Post edited by Jay M on
    Late, but still on time.
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited July 2013
    Jay M wrote: »
    Yep. Makes perfect sense to me. It's pretty much always changing (unless you hit in the exact same spot on the same character).

    I always seem to feel like I can keep the pressure up when my IAT gets blocked. But I think it's just a mix of an online thing, and x person just not swinging right after the block stun. Cause I took it into the dojo, and while it's always changing, an IAT (at the height mine were) seems to be at least a -5 or 6, cause I kept getting jabbed out of my jab attempt after it got blocked. And thrown.. I was pretty much right next to myself when blocking the IAT.. Didn't try EX though. I only messed with it for a couple minutes.

    But anyways. I know it's not safe to keep attacking now, hahah. I know there's a lot more stuff to take into account on all that though. Like how far away they were when they blocked and what/the properties of the attack they might have tried. Yada yada. Probably the safe bet to just back dash if it gets blocked. Then mixing up the options from there after they think I might back dash again after another blocked IAT.

    Thanks!

    Even Haitani gets away with some seriously unsafe shenanigans. You aren't only playing the character match-up, you're checking what the other player knows about your character. The player you're talking about probably hasn't played against Makoto before. EX Tsurugi is probably a lot more safe than a normal Tsurugi because it hits twice and the second hit is much later than a normal Tsurugi hit. That basically means that the block stun on the opponent is occurring later as well (meaning you recover faster in relation to your opponent, which is what frame advantage is).

    Online typically is detrimental to Makoto. I have rarely seen something stupid happen and have it work out in my favor. A lot of that has to do with Makoto's active frames working against her--like with Hakan's oil parry (fml). You want to mixup all of your defensive options too. Don't just back dash every time because I would completely abuse you for doing that. You want to jump back fierce, Backdash, Block (do nothing), sometimes do another tsurugi etc etc--although stand jab blows up an improperly space Tsurugi and then you go floaty which is bad for a character with no defensive options >.> The point is you need to realize that when you do that you're giving up momentum against a good player. Look at what tools the character has too. Every special move we have is unsafe on block and we have nothing that is throw invul outside of backdashing and utilizing air frames. You have to get creative in some matchups :D
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • arapozoarapozo PSN: GambitK Joined: Posts: 176
    edited July 2013
    Do you mean that all of makoto specials leave her in -frames?
    I main Gouken and want to try another character and one of the ones I like is makoto.
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    arapozo wrote: »
    Do you mean that all of makoto specials leave her in -frames?

    On Block. But I mean, its all relative. You can create situations that allow them to be plus.
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • arapozoarapozo PSN: GambitK Joined: Posts: 176
    So on blockstrings can't end on any of her specials?
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited July 2013
    arapozo wrote: »
    So on blockstrings can't end on any of her specials?

    I assume you mean "Can I end a block string with a special and not be punished?" The answer is: it depends on the tools of the other character and how much they know about Makoto as I said above. I'm not going to be afraid to have Dhalsim block my Ex Oroshi because its -4 on block. His fastest punish is 4 frames, so most players are not going to hit that. However, if I'm playing against Zangief I know he has a 1 frame punish (or a 0 frame Ultra punish) I'm going to be scared to Tsurugi provided the player actually knows he can do that. You have to test the knowledge of the other player. You may very well play against a Zangief that has no idea he can just SPD you so you are free to do what you want. On the reverse you may play against a Dhalsim that can just-frame punish you. There are different skill levels to players and even if a player is more skilled he may not be as knowledgeable about the matchup (Example: PR Balrog vs. Haitani-- Haitani didn't know the matchup but IMHO is a more skilled player).

    Another thing you should realize is that while playing safe is...well, safe--it isn't going to force your opponent to guess. Just like doing the smart thing isn't necessarily smart. I'm not trying to Dr. Seuss you here (seriously). The correct response is sometimes extremely predictable, especially if they've seen you do it before. If you watch Haitani play (and if you haven't, please do) you notice that he very rarely gets anti aired. Why do you think that is? It's because he is so good at manipulating his jump arc randomly that they are afraid to get counter hit. The moment they hesitate he blockakusa's them. The next time they're put in the same position they're now afraid of the block string and he punishes their backdash. He literally takes away any option they have as far as they know. You want to play smart as Makoto and sometimes you have to take risks. Makoto is a mixup character, you can't mix people up well if your play is 100% safe. However, you want those risks to be in your favor and sometimes thats on the player level. The example I used before with Zangief ill use again. If you know that this player doesn't even know that he can SPD you after a block hayate then chances are he doesnt know any of your setups or karakusa frame traps. These are all things that you need to realize and also why Makoto is DEADLY after that first round.

    tl;dr Playing Makoto safe is like playing Sakura as a zoner because she has a fireball. You need to take smart risks as a mixup character ESPECIALLY in an engine that favors defensive play.
    Post edited by wirestyle on
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • arapozoarapozo PSN: GambitK Joined: Posts: 176
    edited July 2013
    Thanks for the in depth response, it makes a lot of sense. I think in a sense she is not that different from gouken in that a lot of their specials aren't safe on block and both don't have a reliable "get of me" move like a lot of the cast.

    Yes, I'm watching some of Haitani videos to get a feel of how the character plays at that level.
  • NutsNuts Old-school gamer Joined: Posts: 485
    arapozo wrote: »

    Yes, I'm watching some of Haitani videos to get a feel of how the character plays at that level.

    Just remember that not everything Haitani does is applicable at lower levels. It's funny, Mak is better against poeple who know her. If you're playing people who are unfimiliar with her match-up, you have to keep things stupidly simple.
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited July 2013
    Nuts wrote: »
    arapozo wrote: »

    Yes, I'm watching some of Haitani videos to get a feel of how the character plays at that level.

    Just remember that not everything Haitani does is applicable at lower levels. It's funny, Mak is better against poeple who know her. If you're playing people who are unfimiliar with her match-up, you have to keep things stupidly simple.

    Also, I wouldn't play exactly like Haitani. I'm of the opinion that mimicking players is a terrible idea. You really have to know the character in and out to even start predicting the thought processes of some of the top players. You can take some tricks from them that will make your own game plan better, but don't just try to do what they do without understanding why. I know truthfully that my gameplay has evolved in the same way that Haitani's has. We like the same things about Makoto I think (and we both play vampire savior). That isn't to say that its the only right way to play her, its just what we've found works for us. Finding techniques and setups is part of the fun of the game!

    Out of curiousity, how good are you with Gouken arapozo? Do you have the PC version of AE?

    p.s. vryu plays like me too, or i play like him im not sure
    Post edited by wirestyle on
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • arapozoarapozo PSN: GambitK Joined: Posts: 176
    I think I'm not free, at least I try to play intelligently :D
    I'm only on PS3 at the moment as that what most people use here.
  • Killer_JigglypuffKiller_Jigglypuff Trying really hard Joined: Posts: 7,831
    Curiously enough Makoto has this sort of reverse metagame wherein her gameplan works BETTER against people who know how to play the game. It's so weird (possibly even unique).
    CFN: SpitefulBanette
  • arapozoarapozo PSN: GambitK Joined: Posts: 176
    Can't seem to get how to do kara-karakusa, or consistently cancel her s.lk into karakusa on whiff, on block or hit i can.
  • NutsNuts Old-school gamer Joined: Posts: 485
    arapozo wrote: »
    Can't seem to get how to do kara-karakusa, or consistently cancel her s.lk into karakusa on whiff, on block or hit i can.

    You don't need to do the full half circle motion, use the shortcut.

  • EtherealwtfEtherealwtf Joined: Posts: 497
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited August 2013
    arapozo wrote: »
    Can't seem to get how to do kara-karakusa, or consistently cancel her s.lk into karakusa on whiff, on block or hit i can.

    I know it seems so crucial to learn but it really isn't (at least when you are first picking up Makoto). I'd break everything down by how many options it covers. If you think that way, what does kara-karakusa beat exactly? Only block. Learning blockakusa is much more important as its a frame trap, has multiple setups into it, and baits backdashing/jumping if you read it correctly.

    It's better to watch your own matches and start asking yourself questions:

    Where/Why am I taking damage?
    Did you take damage because of an unnecessary risk or because you weren't blocking correctly?
    If you're taking risks and eating damage, maybe the risk your going for isn't as 'in your favor' as you think.

    This is the type of mindset you need to be in when you play Makoto. Analyze yourself.
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • kraalkraal Joined: Posts: 548
    When using safe jumps, how do you decide between nj.hk and nj.mk ?
    I know about the special 3f safe jump setup from ex.oroshi using nj.mk, but I'm clueless about other situations.
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    kraal wrote: »
    When using safe jumps, how do you decide between nj.hk and nj.mk ?
    I know about the special 3f safe jump setup from ex.oroshi using nj.mk, but I'm clueless about other situations.

    the 3f safe jump uses nj. HK

    You can use either as a normal safe jump.

    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • NutsNuts Old-school gamer Joined: Posts: 485
    edited August 2013
    kraal wrote: »
    When using safe jumps, how do you decide between nj.hk and nj.mk ?
    I know about the special 3f safe jump setup from ex.oroshi using nj.mk, but I'm clueless about other situations.

    Which set-up are you talking about?

    The only 3 frame safe-jump she has is:

    EX-Oroshi-> HK -> nj -> (on the way down) HK
    -but this isnt a real 3 frame safe jump. The distance makes an SRK hit on the 4th frame keeping you safe.

    her typical 4 frame safe jump is:

    EX-Oroshi-> forward dash x1 -> LP -> nj -> (on the way down) MK
    -Unfortunately, 3f SRK still beats this, so what do you do? Omit the MK.

    I typically throw when I land. When I'm pretty sure the opposition is not going to SRK, then I start sticking out the MK
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited August 2013
    Nuts wrote: »
    kraal wrote: »
    When using safe jumps, how do you decide between nj.hk and nj.mk ?
    I know about the special 3f safe jump setup from ex.oroshi using nj.mk, but I'm clueless about other situations.


    Which set-up are you talking about?

    The only 3 frame safe-jump she has is:

    EX-Oroshi-> HK -> nj -> (on the way down) HK
    -but this isnt a real 3 frame safe jump. The distance makes an SRK hit on the 4th frame keeping you safe.

    her typical 4 frame safe jump is:

    EX-Oroshi-> forward dash x1 -> LP -> nj -> (on the way down) MK
    -Unfortunately, 3f SRK still beats this, so what do you do? Omit the MK.

    I typically throw when I land. When I'm pretty sure the opposition is not going to SRK, then I start sticking out the MK

    Technically there is no such thing as a 3 frame safe jump ^_^ well, a "real" one anyway
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • kraalkraal Joined: Posts: 548
    edited August 2013
    I meant the classical "ranged" setup with whiffed s.hk:



    So, what about my question ? nj.hk or nj.mk ?
  • arapozoarapozo PSN: GambitK Joined: Posts: 176
    wirestyle wrote: »

    I know it seems so crucial to learn but it really isn't (at least when you are first picking up Makoto). I'd break everything down by how many options it covers. If you think that way, what does kara-karakusa beat exactly? Only block. Learning blockakusa is much more important as its a frame trap, has multiple setups into it, and baits backdashing/jumping if you read it correctly.

    It's better to watch your own matches and start asking yourself questions:

    Where/Why am I taking damage?
    Did you take damage because of an unnecessary risk or because you weren't blocking correctly?
    If you're taking risks and eating damage, maybe the risk your going for isn't as 'in your favor' as you think.

    This is the type of mindset you need to be in when you play Makoto. Analyze yourself.

    Thanks, I'll keep that in mind, I'll get to her normal game and put the kara-karakusa on the back burner for now.
    I did try the blockakusa and liked it very much because it almost seems like a combo.
  • NutsNuts Old-school gamer Joined: Posts: 485
    kraal wrote: »
    I meant the classical "ranged" setup with whiffed s.hk:



    So, what about my question ? nj.hk or nj.mk ?

    I typically go with HK since it does more damage.
  • UncleGaryUncleGary Joined: Posts: 185
    Does anyone have frame kill data for her jumps? Like empty forward jump or jumping lp.
    I worked empty neutral jump out to be 42 frames, but can't find references for the rest.

  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    arapozo wrote: »
    wirestyle wrote: »

    I know it seems so crucial to learn but it really isn't (at least when you are first picking up Makoto). I'd break everything down by how many options it covers. If you think that way, what does kara-karakusa beat exactly? Only block. Learning blockakusa is much more important as its a frame trap, has multiple setups into it, and baits backdashing/jumping if you read it correctly.

    It's better to watch your own matches and start asking yourself questions:

    Where/Why am I taking damage?
    Did you take damage because of an unnecessary risk or because you weren't blocking correctly?
    If you're taking risks and eating damage, maybe the risk your going for isn't as 'in your favor' as you think.

    This is the type of mindset you need to be in when you play Makoto. Analyze yourself.

    Thanks, I'll keep that in mind, I'll get to her normal game and put the kara-karakusa on the back burner for now.
    I did try the blockakusa and liked it very much because it almost seems like a combo.

    Well, the fun thing about blockakusa is that you can hitconfirm it too. So if you dash in and do cr. lp > st. lp [At this point you can realistically realize its a hit] and then go into cr. lk > lp hayate. If they block you can just blockakusa. It takes some getting used to though. You shouldn't expect too much out of yourself in the beginning. Theres a rage thread for a reason >.>
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • arapozoarapozo PSN: GambitK Joined: Posts: 176
    edited August 2013
    Well, played for the first time using makoto against a friend and of course he got the upper hand but I didn't do so bad. Landed a couple of good blockakusas, really nice.

    After landing some karakusas and ex karakusas, he started jumping a lot more to avoid them, I need to work more on s.mp and Fukiage on reaction to neutral jump. He neutral jumped me too many times.

    Her normals are so great that I find myself using specials only in combos.

    Can't use Tsurugi in a reliable way, I do it too high and get punished or do it too close to the ground and it doesn't come out. And I need to use more Oroshi.
  • crapmonkeycrapmonkey Joined: Posts: 61
    Any tips on Rose matchup? I cannot decipher what is happening in the spoilers on the first page and couldn't find her matchup. I'm mostly having trouble with her pokes and dealing with fireballs. Is there a go to footsie in that matchup? I feel as if there's only one thing I'm missing that would complete the puzzle, you know?
  • arapozoarapozo PSN: GambitK Joined: Posts: 176
    Ok, I'm playing some more makoto and really having some fun.

    I do have one question, I happen to land a lot of non-ex hayate because of counter hits, combos, etc. What are the best followups to hayate. Keeping in mind that I can't kara-karakusa yet.
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited August 2013
    arapozo wrote: »
    Ok, I'm playing some more makoto and really having some fun.

    I do have one question, I happen to land a lot of non-ex hayate because of counter hits, combos, etc. What are the best followups to hayate. Keeping in mind that I can't kara-karakusa yet.


    There's an entire section dedicated to post-hayate mixup that vryu wrote, stickied in this forum that's a really good read (http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/104364/makoto-wake-up-and-post-hayate-mix-ups/p1). To answer your question though, it depends on what version of hayate you used (also what LEVEL of hayate you used, there are 5 levels) and what you did into it. (tl;dr give me a more specific example).

    LP Hayate: +0 (Hit) -8 (Block) at level 1
    MP Hayate: +1 (Hit) -7 (Block) at level 1
    HP Hayate: +2 (Hit) -6 (Block) at level 1
    EX Hayate: Knockdown (Hit) -4 (Block)

    What you should realize by the frame data of the Hayate is that you should be hit confirming it. Any reasonably good player will be able to punish you (some characters its easier than others); grapplers especially. Any version of this Gief can SPD on reaction for free. Part of the 'problem' Makoto runs into when trying to hit confirm her specials, which all of them are unsafe on block, is that the majority of her normals are special cancellable on block. That means whether its a hit or a block the same thing will happen. It's good on hit as you can see in the frame data, but bad on block. So this is what you have to do to hit confirm a Hayate:
    cr. MP > LP Hayate (hold the punch button until you see the cr. MP connect. If you see it block, then press a kick button and do a feint to return back to normal). In addition to this hit confirming it allows you to charge to lp hayate level 2 which gives you more damage, stun, and the same amount of frame advantage as level 1 mp hayate would give. tl;dr it's retarded
    The basic rule to this is downgrade the strength of the hayate based on whatever you are using it out of. Example: If you're using any form of MP, you use LP Hayate. If you're using HP, you can MP hayate etc. You're using the frame advantage from the normal to give you the necessary time to confirm it.

    afaik Haitani was the one to do this first and all of the fanboys creamed themselves--myself included.


    Post edited by wirestyle on
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • NutsNuts Old-school gamer Joined: Posts: 485
    edited August 2013
    wirestyle wrote: »
    cr. MP > LP Hayate (hold the punsh button until you see the cr. MP connect. If you see it block, then press a kick button and do a feint to return back to normal). In addition to this hit confirming it allows you to charge to lp hayate level 2 which gives you more damage, stun, and the same amount of frame advantage as level 1 mp hayate would give. tl;dr it's retarded

    The basic rule to this is downgrade the strength of the hayate based on whatever you are using it out of. Example: If you're using any form of MP, you use LP Hayate. If you're using HP, you can MP hayate etc. You're using the frame advantage from the normal to give you the necessary time to confirm it.

    afaik Haitani was the one to do this first and all of the fanboys creamed themselves--myself included.


    OMG, I did not know this! I've been using cr.MP OS at midrange to catch outstretched limbs, but at close range when cr.MP can be blocked, I've been defaulting to a cancel and starting up a blockstring/tsurugi. Thx. Now I have something else to practice!
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited August 2013
    Nuts wrote: »
    wirestyle wrote: »
    cr. MP > LP Hayate (hold the punsh button until you see the cr. MP connect. If you see it block, then press a kick button and do a feint to return back to normal). In addition to this hit confirming it allows you to charge to lp hayate level 2 which gives you more damage, stun, and the same amount of frame advantage as level 1 mp hayate would give. tl;dr it's retarded

    The basic rule to this is downgrade the strength of the hayate based on whatever you are using it out of. Example: If you're using any form of MP, you use LP Hayate. If you're using HP, you can MP hayate etc. You're using the frame advantage from the normal to give you the necessary time to confirm it.

    afaik Haitani was the one to do this first and all of the fanboys creamed themselves--myself included.


    OMG, I did not know this! I've been using cr.MP OS at midrange to catch outstretched limbs, but at close range when cr.MP can be blocked, I've been defaulting to a cancel and starting up a blockstring/tsurugi. Thx. Now I have something else to practice!

    Hayate feinting brings whatever you're doing down or up to 16 frames. since cr. MP is +2 on block, that gives them 14 frames to react. The average player reacts within 16-18 frames (Marlinpie actually reacts within 14 believe it or not). They did a study on this somewhere. It's very unlikely that you'd be punished for it, especially considering how far away you are if done correctly. Glad it helps.
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
  • HomunculiHomunculi Joined: Posts: 141
    The Makoto sub-forum is pretty ded.
    UMVC3 - Wesker/Doom/Dormammu
    KoF 13 - Ryo/Elizabeth/Leona
  • ProfProf Fresh Joined: Posts: 2,029
    Maybe a legit social thread would help.
  • RafaLibeRafaLibe Joined: Posts: 56


    I just thought of it today. Might be somewhere here already but I think this is relevant enough to appear again.
  • NutsNuts Old-school gamer Joined: Posts: 485
    edited August 2013
    RafaLibe wrote: »


    I just thought of it today. Might be somewhere here already but I think this is relevant enough to appear again.

    Ho Lee Fuk. I did not know that. And here I was just doing my best to learn the timing.

    EDIT: also, I just sub'd to you channel. lots of great info there

    Post edited by Nuts on
  • NCK_FeroceNCK_Feroce In Makoto I Trust Joined: Posts: 3,288
    Congrats Rafa! Some sick stuff on your channel o_O
  • wirestylewirestyle Do stuff into other stuff Joined: Posts: 429
    edited August 2013
    Jay M wrote: »
    About a week ago, I noticed her EX Oroshi does more stun than a EX h-Hayate. Started using that a little more after a standing fierce. I was watching videos and was wondering why people chose that instead of pushing em into the corner.

    I'm going to break some of it down, but it's really to show you how to think as a Makoto player. Nothing Makoto does is the end all be all best option. You need to fully utilize all her tools so the other player doesn't get used to your rhythm or animations etc. Since you used st. HP > EX Oroshi / EX Hayate as an example of when you use it, let's break down what you can do out of them:

    What do I get from each?

    st. HP > EX Hayate
    Soft Knockdown
    120 Damage
    150 Stun
    Leads to optimal damage corner combo if in corner

    st. HP > EX Oroshi
    Hard Knockdown
    120 Damage
    200 Stun
    Leads to safe jump setups and option selects to punish escape options


    So, if the opponent is very close to stun, st. HP > EX Oroshi > Safe Jump is completely viable provided you are mid screen. If the opponent is in the corner you could possibly waste meter depending on how close the opponent is to being stunned. It's safer, meter wise, to go for the EX Oroshi if you're SURE its going to stun them. I'm typically of the opinion that mixup is a lot more valuable than damage, but that changes on the opponents health value. So, if they're at 100% and you hit them with a MK Tsurugi > st. HP I'd probably go for HP Hayate (Non-EX) as it's +2 Frame advantage. +2 may not sound like much, but it makes your 5 frame MP a really punishing frame trap that leads into another tier of mixup that will scare your opponent. Once they get scared, they will try to escape it which is when you OS sweep them into a safe jump setup, etc. Makoto mental guard breaks your opponent, it's best for you to not overuse any of her tools and focus on what your opponent is thinking then try to psychologically break them.

    Also, I doubt you're hit confirming your hayate's with a st. HP. That means that hit or block you're going into HP Hayate, which is -6 on block. That means you're GETTING punished by anyone with a working brain cell. These are things you need to think about. Analyze your own matches and see where/why you're taking damage. Everything is preventable.

    Note that there are more options out of each I just don't have the time to list everything as I'm at work.

    Edit: Also, since HP Hayate is +2 on hit, if the opponents fastest normal is 4 frames, your st. HP becomes a frame trap. Thats pretttttyyyy dumb ^_^
    Post edited by wirestyle on
    "Mind games don't work on players without functioning synapses" - Killer_Jigglypuff
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