AEMAKOTO Guide and Q&A: Ask all your questions here!

AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan GodanzukiJoined: Posts: 71
We will be working on organizing this forum. It will take awhile, but it will get done. I've been going through all posts that have come up since June 7th. I've been sorting most of it out, and will try to organize all of this stuff into one coherent thread. I will need help.

If you see a post that you think applies to AE Makoto, please do not repost it in here. Instead, just send it via IM to this account. More on this later.

UPDATE - OP reserved spots are set. If it turns out we don't need this many, we can delete them later. I'm going to get started now. Any questions let me know!
For those who know the password, please feel free to add OPs. I might do a bunch of them just to get us started.

Thanks!

-the mossad man
Question:
how do you do this ive looked it up but couldnt find anything anyone mind helping me or pointing me in the rightdirection

Answer 1:
In Super
In Super
:uf::d::db::b: :lk:/:mk:/:hk:
If you do it too low it will not come out. It can't be "tiger kneed" like cammy's canon strike or akuma's air fireball
:d::db::b::uf: :lk:/:mk:/:hk: - Does not work

In AE
Because of the change to Tsurugi, TK motions now do work.
:d::db::b::uf: EX:k:- Does work. Its use is still not known very well.
:d::db::b::uf: :lk:/:mk:/:hk: - Works but the timing is very difficult. I do not recommend.
Answer 2:
It's a tough move, but hopping over a fireball with it always makes me feel gdlk. I have trouble pulling it off (and sometimes I make it TOO instant, so I land in the fireball), but find the most success with a reallyreally fast 270 on the stick and then MK:

:uf::hcb::mk:

I find if I try to do just the required inputs :)uf: or :u: and :qcb::mk:), I either don't hit the :b: and end up with a jumping kick, or I miss the initial :uf: or :u: input and just try to choke a Hadouken. Which isn't good.

I know it seems counter-intuitive to increase the inputs, but it seems to work for me. I know some very good Mak players do this with other moves, too, like the Karakusa, :hp:, :hp:Hayate combo. Instead of doing a QCF for the Hayate, they'll do a HCF. I find that it helped my execution of this tricky combo, too.

Good luck with Makoto!
Questsion:
Did Makoto really lose FA2(blocked) > Dash > Lk Karakusa (unstoppable) ? I keep getting shoryukened or dashed out of.... is this really gone!?

I mean I dont believe my eyes, I loved this

Answer :
You can always jump or backdash or do an invincible move to get out of command grabs when leaving block or hit stun. With perfect timing, LK Karakusa whiffs, but you're just fighting people trying to stop it regardless. Hit them low with c.LK or block to bait it.
...
Actually, if you do LK Karakusa with perfect timing, it will whiff. MK Karakusa works every time
Question:
To all the top Makoto players that currently view the board, what would you say are some of the top things to learn for Makoto if one is just starting out?

I have been practicing a sense of footsies with her normal and dash, as I usually only dash in on whiffed moves and play a pretty patient game. I've been using some of the standard oki setups such as meaty mp or meaty hp.oroshi and just getting in the habit of anti-airing properly with fukiage and her other normals. Is Karakarakusa a staple to her gameplay? Or can I bypass learning that until later on after I go through learning various option selects and just a solid ground game?
Answer:
Learn Tsurugi pressure and practice applicable follow-ups on hit (U1, s.HP, s.MP, c.MP, in that order of range and relevance) and on block (another Tsurugi, FA, backdash, blocking, Kara-EX Karakusa, s.MP, c.LK).

Learn her frame traps, mainly s.MP, s.MP and s.MP, IA MK Tsurugi. There are lots of other strings and variations, but those two are your most consistent ways of opening people up who crouch tech and throw spam. Try not to do a random Hayate when frame trapping, generally use EX Hayate or EX Oroshi to cancel if anything. If your opponent isn't opening up to those two things, they're either crouch teching very late or not pressing buttons at all. Now we've got s.LK Blockakusa for that, or you can go old-fashioned and work the Hayate Cancels into Karakusa. s.MP/s.LP, s.HP xx MP Oroshi is really good for targeting late crouch techs, because it combos on counter hit.

Learn her buffer poking. You know, throwing out a poke with a Hayate buffered inside it so that it option select Hayates on hit and merely does a simple poke on whiff. c.LK xx EX Hayate, s.MP xx MP/EX Hayate, and c.MP/s.MK xx MP/EX Hayate are your go-to buffer pokes, in that specific order. The key is to watch for people who see you poking and decide to jump.

Learn her multitude of ways in Karakusa. I'm landing it more than ever in AE.

j.LP, LK Karakusa tick throw.
(j.HP, meaty s.MP, or any pressure with a good read that they won't press buttons afterwards), s.LK (block-confirm) xx HK Karakusa.
f+MK, EX Karakusa.
Dash up, Fukikusa (63214+HP+HK).
HK Karakusa on opponent's wakeup after you've trained them to sit still ... which is fucking impossible against scrubs.
c.LP, s.LP, c.LK xx HC, s.LK Kara-Karakusa.
Blocked FA2, MK Karakusa.

Eh, there's a ton more I could write but I already did that a while ago and the write up is 50% obsolete in AE.
Question:
I'm totally new to being a Makoto player, and I was wondering if there are any techniques to use to FADC into Ultra with her.
Answer:
FADCing into any Ultra with Makoto is a waste, really. Especially with U2... you don't even get the full animation so the damage won't be much. I'm assuming you would be fadcing from a special, not a normal, so it really is a waste of meter given what she can do off of connecting just about any of her specials. Here's some better options:

>For Hayate, I'm asssuming you'd be trying to FADC from HP Hayate. You really should go for Oki here (t.LP, t.MP, st.MP, IA Tsurugi, or another HP>HP Hayate to counter mashing lights or throwing, or Dash in and normal throw/Karakusa/Fukikusa to prevent defensive measures). BUT, if you must waste your meter on an FADC, it is much better to FADC into Karakusa>U1 or IA Tsurugi>U1 due to the reset of damage scaling.

>For Oroshi, You don't need to FADC anything. Seriously, Oroshi FADC>U1 is kind of weird, and if you hit it meaty, you dont' need to FADC it at all. it combos by itself. In fact, a better option after hitting Oroshi is just doing c.LK>EX Hayate to drive them to the corner. And if you are already in the corner, finish them off.

>For Fukiage, obviously we're talking about U2, NO ANIMATION. So seriously? Normal combos off of fuki do similar damage. I say save that ultra for a fireball or a focus attack. The Oki potential after landing a fukiage is HUGE. Seriously you've got:
-Fuki, Fuki, EX Tsurgi (ton of damage)
-Fuki, nj.HP, (land), Meaty Oroshi (ton of stun and continue the combo if it hits)
-Fuki, nj.HP, Dash (crossover) and mix up
-Fuki, nj.HP, Dash, Karakusa
Note: all nj.HPs can be substituted for f.LK for mixup purposes.

So yeah. No Herp Derp for Makoto. Its not as simple as FADC ultra like it is with some other characters. That is the WRONG ATTITUDE and it will net you a lot of losses. Most of her damage doesn't come from Ultras. Although they do hurt, most of it comes from 50/50 mixups and corner combos. That's why she needs so much skill to play.
...
Another thing is, after the U2, the subsequent hits continue to add to the stun. So if you know your opponent is close to stun, you can continue and stun them for even more damage/meter gain. I'm not sure exactly what the values are, but I used to do it all the time like at the end of round 1 of this video: [URL=' . Its']www.youtube.com/watch?v=HszPJyRIPy0 . Its[/URL] actually super, not AE, but the same properties apply. You get some really good stun from 2x Fuki +EX Tsurugi after U2, too.
Question:
cr mp OS hayate? I saw it posted somewhere it didn't say how to do it.I browsed through the stickies and couldn't find it. How do you do it? I think it was mentioned as normal OS hayate.

Answer 1:
I think I know.
Do the C.MP just far away enough so that it doesn't hit them UNLESS they move their hit boxes into it. This means that you will not make contact with them if they are blocking. While C.MP is starting up input the Hayate like you would normally so that it would combo.
This will make it so that if the C.MP hits, it'll combo into Hayate, but if the opponent doesn't move into your attack, the C.MP will whiff and go into recovery frames instead of canceling into a Hayate.
Not sure if right or explained properly.

TL:DR
Do a C.MP so it whiffs, input Hayate anyway. If C.MP hits body parts they stick out it'll combo into Hayate, if not, no problem.

Answer 2:
Exactly. With the same timing, you will hit the cancel period on hit and go into a Hayate, and go into the active frames without any ability to cancel on whiff. Generally you do this outside of your opponent's range, and often within your opponent's poke range.

It's a very valuable tool for Makoto, all considering. Her c.LK, c.MP, s.MP, and s.MK all have fantastic hit-boxes, beating the majority of pokes out there if you use the right one for the range. Her Hayates are wildly unsafe on block and make you lose all momentum even if you're not punished. Her pokes don't lead into any good frame advantage or damage by themselves, yet can turn the tides of a round if she lands an MP or better Hayate. Her pokes are generally slow and wall-ish, not really meant to be used in typical footsies with weaving and bobbing but meant to stop attacks.

If you combine all this, you'll realize her grounded pokes don't have very much purpose otherwise.
Flash Metroid's Tutorial-


The Mossad Man's Tutorial(please watch Flash's first)-

fadecy's Tutorial - www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm-P8U6csLc

KyutwoVideos Abare Tutorial - www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksa4l9CdslU

theDUKE's Corner Meaty Setups-

V-Ryu's tips and tricks -


vryu's Channel on YouTube (lots of good videos on here.....)- www.youtube.com/user/vryu123

Found a good tutorial video? Anything works (just no match videos... There's a thread for that!!!)
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Comments

  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Before and After

    This section will contain original properties of Makoto's normals, specials, super, and ultras, and contrast each one with AE Makoto's normals, specials, supers, and ultras.
    makoto1.png
    makoto2.png

    makoto3.png
    Original Properties
    Startup - 4f
    Active - 4f
    Recovery - 5f
    Advantage on guard - +2
    Advantage on hit - +5
    Damage - 30
    Stun - 50

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for s.:lp:

    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    -6 on Block
    -3 on Hit
    Movement post HC-Drastically backwards

    Notes - This is a standard, average normal. It is not spectacular, but it is fast enough had has decent range. Links into itself and s. :mp: very effectively. When used meaty and/or, s.:lp: can chain into into heavier hitting normals and even Ultra 1. Against the twins, you can anti-air with this then dash forward for an ambiguous cross-up or not, depending on the opponent's height and the timing of your dash.

    Use s.:lp: exactly as it was used in SSIV
    Original Properties
    Startup - 5f
    Active - 7f
    Recovery - 7f
    Advantage on guard - +2
    Advantage on hit - +5
    Damage - 60
    Stun - 100

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for s.:mp:

    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    -1 on Block
    +2 on Hit
    Movement post HC-Slightly forward
    Notes - An unusually amazing normal, with many extremely practical uses. S.:mp: is the most dominant of all of her normals. Used correctly, this normal can only be beat by some projectiles/invulnerable moves. This thing can beat supers, ultras, most other normals, throws, command grabs, and even some projectiles. Most of these instances are situational, but please understand that Makoto cannot win without s. :mp:.

    Use s.:mp: exactly as it was used in SSIV, but in a wider variety of situations!
    Original Properties
    Startup - 6f
    Active - 3f
    Recovery - 24f
    Advantage on guard - (-9)
    Advantage on hit - (-5)
    Damage - 80
    Stun - 200

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for s.:hp:

    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    +1 on Block
    +5 on Hit
    Movement post HC-Quite backwards, enough for a MK Karakusa after one at point blank.

    Notes - A relatively quick heavy normal, s.:hp: is your main conduit to great damage when you are punishing a misstep by your opponent. Please dont ever use it alone. You almost always want to Hayate Cancel it, because Hayate Cancels recover in 12f, but s.:hp: recovers in 24. this is a great normal considering that it can lead into upward of 400 damge and completely stun many characters in 1 combo.

    Use s.:hp: exactly as it was used in SSIV, but be careful.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 5f
    Active - 3f
    Recovery - 8f
    Advantage on guard - 0
    Advantage on hit - +3
    Damage - 40
    Stun - 50

    AE Makoto
    S.:lk: can now be Kara Cancelled and used with Karakusa to greatly extend the range. The s.:lk: can be cancelled during any of its frames, whether startup, active, or recovery, but these frames are added to the startup of the Karakusa. (Correct if i'm wrong...)

    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    -6 on Block
    -3 on Hit
    Movement post HC-Quite forward

    Notes -S.:lk: is a great normal, but its not due to its frame advantage or its utility as a poke. There are 2 main uses for s.:lk::
    -Use s.:lk: with a Hayate cancel to futher advance her sprite during pressure strings, as the hayate cancel will move her towads the opponent.
    - To Kara Karakusa (new). Now shecan cancel the s.:lk: during the active frames during a block string to create a frame tight Karakusa trap.
    Overal, this is a good normal. Not to mention it leads directly into Target Combo 1. However, due to the 5f startup and even advantage on block, S.:mp: is better in almost every other application.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 6f
    Active - 4f
    Recovery - 12f
    Advantage on guard - 2
    Advantage on hit - +1
    Damage - 70
    Stun - 100

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for s.:mk:

    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    -3 on Block
    0 on Hit
    Movement post HC-Slightly backwards

    Notes - A great long range poke, s.:mk: serves both as a long range conduit to good punishment/starting of pressure. It also acts as a great anti air. Due to its awkward hitbox, it can hit opponents jumping from pretty far away, directly over you, and even sometimes behind you! Reset and mixup time! It also beats many jumping normals like Dudley's People's Elbow and all of Gief's standing/jumping normals.
    Use s.:mk: exactly as it was used in SSIV
    Original Properties
    Startup - 8f
    Active - 4f
    Recovery - 5f
    Advantage on guard - +2
    Advantage on hit - +5
    Damage - 100
    Stun - 250

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for s.:hk:

    Notes - A POWERFUL normal not really due to its damage (100) but due to its stun (250!). Yes D'BOOT hurts badly, and Mak's opponents backup after getting hit by a couple of these. If this is used correctly, Mak's opponents who get their long range pokes stuffed by st:hk: will have nightmares of being stunned and knocked out quickly. To make matters worse for them, there are many meaty setups for st.:hk: to be meaty! This thing is awesome. Due to its hitbox being so far ahead of Mak's hurtbox, and due to its 8 (!) active frames, she can stuff an unimaginable amount of specials such as blanka balls, headbutts, Jaguar Tooths (teeth?) rush punches, and pretty much any non invincible rushing normal/special... Abuse this...

    In 2012, the hit-box was lowered greatly, making it beat most cr.MKs and lows.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 3f
    Active - 4f
    Recovery - 7f
    Advantage on guard - 0
    Advantage on hit - +3
    Damage - 30
    Stun - 50

    AE Makoto
    Start up changed to 3f.

    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    -6 on Block
    -3 on Hit
    Movement post HC-Mildly backwards

    Notes - Amazing! Makoto has a 3 Frame normal now. This greatly increases both her ability to maintain pressure (via Counter Hits) and interrupt the opponents offense. f.:lp: should not be used in combos. So far a lot of inconclusive experiments have been conducted, and its best use seems to be that of interrupting opponents trying to mash jab/throw during her block strings or when they are on hit/block disadvantage. A great example is after landing :hp: Hayate. It is +2 on hit, so if you throw this 3 Frame normal out, it will hit on the first possible frame after they recover. Since the fastest normals come out in 3 Frames, she will beat them and get a CH. Perfectly timed throws come out in 1 frame, so they would hit on frame 4. Therefore it would beat them too. Even most ultras don't come out in 1 frame... so she will recover in time to block most ultras.

    With that said, beware of 0 Frame grabs, or EX Grabs from other grapplers. Otherwise this is an awesome move to have in her arsenal.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 7f
    Active - 6f
    Recovery - 8f
    Advantage on guard - 0
    Advantage on hit - +3
    Damage - 90
    Stun - 100

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for f.:mp:

    Notes - F.:mp: is back, and it hasn't changed at all. Please believe that this is a good thing. It is a great way of advancing, and does decent damage for its range and speed. It has an amazing forward hitbox and great recovery for a move with such high priority. Although it has slightly slightly more inactive frames than st:mp:, the forward movement and the hitbox more than make up for it. It is a safe way to inch your way forward, especially when you have your opponent trapped in a corner with nowhere to go, and you are looking for a way inside. When used meaty it can combo into lights. Use this as a stepping stone to land big damage.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 13f
    Active - 8f
    Recovery - 18f
    Advantage on guard - 8
    Advantage on hit - -4 (-5 on crouch block)
    Damage - 90
    Stun - 200

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for f.:mp:

    Notes - Makoto steps up and *POW! This move has a great forward hit box, does ok damage, and a bunch of stun. This move is great for stoppng those grounded, forward-moving specials (like rekkas). The great thing about this move is that it has great range. She steps way forward, and then steps way back. It is difficult (imposible?) to punish on hit or block by most characters because of how far she steps back. This is a move that you can just toss out at random when you're fishing for a little damage.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 7f
    Active - 3f
    Recovery - 12f
    Advantage on guard - -4
    Advantage on hit - -1
    Damage - 40
    Stun - 50

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for f.:lk:

    Notes - By the numbers this normal looks horrible. It has a lot of start up frames, and has some of the slowest recovery of any normal, not just a light. Even worse, its SUPER negative on block and you can get punished for using it. However, don't judge this book by the cover! While it does serve as a modest long range poke, its primary purpose is for Kara Cancelling. Using f:lk:, you can Kara Cancel any of her specials and her normal throw. From what we know so far, st.:lk: can only Kara Cancel into Karakusa. The range is excellent. f.:lk: Kara Cancelling is slightly shorter in length, but can be use with a wider variety of moves. The most important of which is Kara-Fukiage. Most of her moves have good horizontal hitboxes, but fukiage does not. Doing a Kara Fukiage will extend the range of how far Mak travels before the fukiage comes out. This is a must for some situations (such as landing a max range LP Fukiage... you have to Kara Cancel the second to make it work sometimes), and can be used to severely limit your opponent options. For example, if you have the opponent in the corner, their options are already limited. They can't sit there. They have to do something. Most people will try to find an opportunity to jump, either forward or straight up (doesn't matter if they jump back). If you are watching correctly, you can just keep hitting :dp:, neutral, :lk:. As long as they stay on the ground, st:lk: (or f:lk:) will come out and poke at them. If you hit them a few times, then they will try to jump. Have LP Fukiage ready in case they jump at you, but if they jump up or back, do your :dp:, :lk: and buffer into either HP or EX Fukiage. Even if you trade you still get to continue your combo! So many other opportunities like this exist!
    Original Properties
    Startup - 15f
    Active - 3f
    Recovery - 16f
    Advantage on guard - -1
    Advantage on hit - +2
    Damage - 90
    Stun - 100

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for f.:mk:

    Notes - F.:mk: is a great way to cover a lot of ground while attacking at the same time. That is not its primary purpose, but it does move relatively quickly while attacking at the same time. Its primary purpose is, after using Target Combo 2 a few times, to set up for Karakusa. After the opponent is hit by, or blocks TC 2 once or twice (and expects it again when you use f.:mk:), instead of doing the :hk: part of the combo, use EX Karakusa (on block) or LK Karakusa (on hit) to surprise them with a grab. Many other uses for this, and since its +2 on hit, it becomes very useful with the new f:lp:... More to come....
    Original Properties
    Startup - 19f
    Active - 3f
    Recovery - 23f
    Advantage on guard - -8
    Advantage on hit - Knock down
    Damage - 110
    Stun - 200

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for f.:hk:

    Notes - Another good normal, f.:hk: (no hold) has 2 primary purposes. First to continue pursuit after an attack or on wakup (ex: Hayate (hit), then f.:hk: to hit their back dash). Second, to avoid wakup throws, as it is actually considered airborne for many of its startup frames. This move does good damage and great stun, BUT it must be used wisely. If it ever whiffs or is block, it can be severely punished.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 4f
    Active - 4f
    Recovery - 6f
    Advantage on guard - +1
    Advantage on hit - +4
    Damage - 20
    Stun - 50

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for c.:lp:
    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    -6 on Block
    -3 on Hit
    Movement post HC-Slightly more backwards than F+LP
    Notes - c.:lp: is your standard run of the mill crouching light. Its not extremely fast but its good enough to compete with most normals. The primary use here is to chain it from crouching to standing light punch, and then even further into a combo. Other than that, most other normals can do whatever c.:lp: can do.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 7f
    Active - 6f
    Recovery - 9f
    Advantage on guard - -1
    Advantage on hit - +2
    Damage - 20
    Stun - 50

    AE Makoto
    No changes were logged for c.:lp:

    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    -6 on Block
    -3 on Hit
    Movement post HC-Either 0 knockback or insignificant enough to not be seen

    Notes - One of your main pokes, c.:mp: has great range and can seriously disrupt a rushing opponents offense. c.:mp: OS Hayate is a great way to win poking wars. It has a decent range and is quick enough to stuff a lot of pokes. Abuse liberally. Also a Hayate cancel after a c.:mp: is perfect range to Kara Karakusa....
    Original Properties
    Startup - 7f
    Active - 2f
    Recovery - 25f
    Advantage on guard - -9
    Advantage on hit -
    Damage - 90
    Stun - 100

    AE Makoto
    Active frames increased to 3f
    Recovery frames reduced to 24f

    Notes - An awesome sweep! Makoto now has an extra active frame to make things easier on her. This also means that its easier to create meaty sweeps. It has great range and is very quick. In addition, its recovery frames has been reduced by 1, but the overall frames remain the same. Its main purpose is to get that desperately needed knock down to set up meaty attacks.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 4f
    Active - 4f
    Recovery - 7f
    Advantage on guard - 0
    Advantage on hit -+3
    Damage - 30
    Stun - 50

    AE Makoto
    c.:lk: has a good bit more range

    Hayate Cancel Behavior:
    -6 on Block
    -3 on Hit
    Movement post HC- Slightly backwards
    Notes- In super, c.:lk was good for interrupting an opponents offense. It was also aesome as a meaty attack, as it combo'd into stHP and below, netting some really good damage. With the new range, Makoto can punish things that she was unable to punish before. Blocking your opponents moves and punishing is easier now, leaving a little less stress on the "countering" attitude she had in super. Also, due to enhancements to other moves (most notibly EX Hayate and Fukiage), c.:lk: has opened a whole new world of damage for Makoto, paticularly in the corner. Considering that it is one of her (only) two low hitting moves, This will need to be abused heavily to make sure Makoto can win every match.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 7f
    Active - 6f
    Recovery - 8f
    Advantage on guard - 0
    Advantage on hit -+3
    Damage - 70
    Stun - 100

    AE Makoto
    No change was logged for c.:mk:
    Notes-Probably one of the most dominant anti air normals in the game, c.:mk: beats just about anything in the air. No trade either. It lowers her hurtbox to the point that it becomes difficult to hit her from any angle... including behind her. While it does not do very much damage/stun, it gives a good reset and discourages opponents from jumping. Keeping them grounded is important, because makoto can net a lot of damage when an opponent is afraid to jump.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 9f
    Active - 4f
    Recovery - 17f
    Advantage on guard - -3
    Advantage on hit -+1
    Damage - 90
    Stun - 100

    AE Makoto
    The hit box has been extended out in front of Makoto, and the hittable box has been lowered slightly, making it easier to use as an anti air.
    Notes-C.:hk: is not the primary anti air. It only does 20 more damage thatn c.HK, but is slower and hits less. It also have terrible recovery if blocked, and if you whiff, you die. See you at character select. No... This is not primarily for anti air. This move is almost perfect for stopping Zangief or THawk. it beats lariats, condor dives, and those far pokes... They will keep sticking it out there. Switch between c.:mp: OS Hayate and c.:hk: to keep things mixed up. Also, against these two (and a few more) c.:hk: can be a good anti air, but only because their jump is so slow and floaty.
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Before and After (Continued)
    Original Properties
    Startup - 13f
    Active - 3f-3f-5f
    Recovery - 18f
    Advantage on guard - -5
    Advantage on hit - -1
    Damage - 220
    Stun - 350

    Notes - Yamase has not changed and it has retained its usefulness as a long range poke. This move has a strong hit-box and hits very hard, 220 damage and 350 stun for a mid-range poke makes it one of the most damaging footsie tools in the game. While it's got a great high hit-box, it loses to lows, and it also loses to neutral jumps and FAs. Use sparingly lest you get punished for its weaknesses.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 5f
    Active - 4f
    Recovery - 14f
    Advantage on guard - -4
    Advantage on hit - -1
    Damage - 90
    Stun - 100

    Notes - An interesting Target Combo. It can be special canceled on either hit into LP or EX Hayate, and in the second hit's case, MP Hayate as well. Its main use is for a double buffer poke wall and for giving a lot of pain to FAs in range for both hits. Don't use this as a random poke unless you're fishing for FAs.
    Original Properties
    Startup - 8f
    Active - 7f
    Recovery - 14f
    Advantage on guard - -3
    Advantage on hit - +1
    Damage - 190
    Stun - 200

    Notes - A VERY far reaching poke, TC2 is great for stopping many different backdashes as well as condition an opponent for getting grabbed by Karakusa. Its main function is to put a far reaching poke that stays out there for a long time, does two hits, and move Makoto closer to the opponent all at once. Once you land this, your opponent will fear it... it hurts pretty bad. The whole point is to switch up between using TC2 an just f.:mk:, after which you can do a :lk: or EX Karakusa as they wait for the 2nd hit of TC2. But do not abuse this. It can be punished pretty hard since it is -3 on block. Your Herp Derp mashing Ryus will eat you for breakfast... But as an occasional mid screen mixup, TC2 gets the job done where no other normal can.
    Start-up - 1f
    Active - NA
    Recovery - 10f
    Fully invincible, increases damage by 25% for the next 10s

    A very interesting Super. Unlike Yun's and Yang's Supers, this is fully invincible, and can be used as a "get out of jail free" card much like SSF4 Rose's U2 once was. Its uses are as follows:

    - Used as a reversal or "randomly" to let you react to an opponent's attack with an Ultra: Sometimes, this is called for, mainly because Makoto doesn't have a form of FADC'able, safe reversal to get out of trouble, and when the situation calls for it (end of the round, for instance), it's quite useful. When used, you can punish a move already out with U1 or Fukiage or AA, though you're not really invincible for anything but U1. Plus, you have to wary of the recovery: if an opponent is in range to get hit by a Fukiage or AA U1, he WILL NOT be in range by the time you recover and actually do it.

    When used and the opponent is in a neutral state, expect one of four things on average: jump back, backdash, an invincible move, or blocking. Generally you want to block or backdash yourself, it's the most consistent option.

    - Used to power up a combo: Not really applicable in AE due to FADC combos. Universally, EX Hayate FADC Fukiage, EX Tsurugi does more than a Super combo can do other than with Ultra. This has its uses, but it's really, really mainly only for Ultra 1. One particularly great example of this is hitting a farther out MK Tsurugi, upon which only c.MP will combo. You can combo into cr.MP xx MP Hayate xx Super to seal the deal where once your options didn't include Ultra 1.

    - Used to power up buffer poking: Buffer poking is the act of poking with an inputted Hayate into a poke, OSing it on hit and doing nothing on whiff. The ability to add an Ultra to this is extremely scary for a Balrog or Fei Long who have good horizontal moves that lose to buffer pokes.

    In short, her Super is a valuable option, but very situational and costly if wasted.
    Start-up - 6f
    Active - 3f
    Recovery - 47f
    Advantage on guard - -29
    Advantage on hit -
    89F: Others
    90F: Sagat, Cammy
    91F: Blanka
    Damage - 75*405

    Your main combo Ultra. You'll use this in match-ups where U2 doesn't specifically punish an opponent's unsafe move(s) or fireballs, and when it doesn't let you run away from the corner or give you a quick little get out of jail free card to avoid mix-ups. Mainly you'll combo this off of MK Tsurugi or Karakusa, but you can land it off of a meaty MP Oroshi, a meaty s.MP or s.HK, or Super canceling HP Hayate (which isn't recommended, because meter is so important in AE). Its speed is such that it can be used to punish anything -6 or worse from up close, like Juri's EX Pinwheel, Dudley's EX Machine Gun Blow, or any two blocked Rekkas from Fei Long. Another way of landing it is as an anti-air for a direct jumping attack.

    After landing it, you can do pretty much anything you want. My advice? Corner them as much as possible. You have enough time to dash 5 times and then do a meaty s.MP. You can also:

    - Dash X 2 -> c.HK whiff -> perfectly meaty MP Oroshi
    - Jumping attack whiff -> dash -> perfectly meaty HP Oroshi
    - Dash X 2 -> LP Fukiage whiff -> perfectly meaty s.MP
    - Empty jump X 2 -> perfectly meaty c.LK or c.LP
    - Jumping attack whiff -> f+MK whiff -> perfectly meaty c.MK
    - Empty jump -> f+MK whiff -> perfectly meaty s.HK
    - Dash -> f+MK whiff -> neutral j.MK (4 frame safe jump)
    - MP Fukiage whiff -> j.MK (4 frame safe jump)
    - Empty jump -> empty jump -> meaty LK Karakusa
    Startup - 16f
    Active - Until hitting the ground
    Recovery - 26f
    Advantage on guard - -28
    Advantage on hit - knockdown.
    Damage - 105, 285 with full animation. 60, 150 with partial animation.

    A full utility Ultra. The speed was enhanced slightly in AE, allowing fireballs to be punished more reasonably. Its main uses are to punish zoning options, escape from pressure/the corner, punish unsafe moves, punish backdashes off of a safe jump OS, and for max damage after a stun compared to U1.

    Follow up the full animation with forward dash, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi if you have one meter, HK Tsurugi if you don't. Follow up the partial animation with forward dash, LP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate if mid-screen with one meter. In the corner, use MK Tsurugi, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. Without meter, just use LP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi out of the corner, MK Tsurugi, LP Fukiage in the corner.

    - Punishing fireballs is relatively simple, if not a twitchy and somewhat risky option. You only really have roughly 20-30 frames to register that a fireball was shot out and input it, and not get faked out by a standing jab or motion to do a fireball into nothing. Against good players, its real purpose is to limit the amount of fireballs they throw, not punish them. Be careful about opponents who FADC their fireball to bait you!

    Useful in this purpose against Ryu, Ken, Seth, Akuma, Dan (I guess), Sakura, Oni, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, Evil Ryu, and Rose. Usable but very risky due to fake-out/safe options against C. Viper, Cody, and Sagat. Do not try to punish Guile, Dee Jay, Gouken, or Juri with this.

    - Escaping the corner and pressure is one of its uses, but most characters can punish this depending on their Ultra or meter. Mainly useful against everyone who can't particularly punish you or have amazing corner pressure or just plain good Oki, like Fei Long, Cammy, Guy, Ibuki, Sakura, and grapplers. Some characters you can't use it on are the twins, Makoto, and Dudley, depending on their meter and Ultra.

    - Punishing unsafe moves is one of the original SSF4's main reasons for U2 getting any use at all. Some highly punishable moves are blocked T. Hawk's Condor Dive (EX as well), any blocked Blanka Ball, Akuma's teleport, Zangief's random Lariats, and Vega's wall dive on reaction.
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Makoto's Footsies

    -When far away from your opponent, you have several options to get near them to take their life. Here is how to use each of these methods to close the distance when far from you opponent.
    Positives:

    -EXTREMELY quick
    -Can dash under grounded moves with a high hitbox (like THawk stHK, Dudley stHP, or Geif stHK
    -Covers A LOT of ground.

    Negatives:

    -You are vulnerable for a VERY long time.
    -After your dash is complete you have a significant recovery.
    -While the speed is great, the distance is predictable, and can be punished from very far away.

    Analysis: Forward Dashing is probably the most overused movement in Makoto's arsenal. Although her dash is amazing, you should take heed to its negative attributes. Against a character with no fireball, some of these negatives are lessened. However against a projectile heavy character, you'll find yourself dashing into a lot of damage. Also characters with long range moves will often catch the end of your dash with their pokes (Chun li mashing stHK comes to mind). You have to be careful to space your dashing so that you don't run into any trouble. This trouble can be slightly alleviated by focus dashing. This is especially useful from full screen against characters with slow projectiles. Don't abuse it though.

    Positives:

    -big forward hitbox
    -stuffs A LOT of moves (i've had it stuff ultra's after the flash)
    -great damage (90 dmg. her stHP does 80 wtf)

    Negatives:

    -doesn't really move that far
    -Awkward forward movement
    -Cant combo from it (unless its meaty)

    Analysis: tMP is great for moving across the screen in spurts, especially if you are patiently waiting for an opening on a projectile character. Just neutral jump the projectiles and continue mashing tMP lol. There are other options once you get closer, but from far away it is great. This is sometimes better than dashing, especially on non-projectile characters because they end up dashing or have to throw something out to get in on you, and tMP stops a lot of that and makes them figure out another way.

    Positives:

    -GREAT range.
    -Quick, and has decent recovery on block
    -Can cancel into HK if whiff
    -Plenty of time to put HK if it hits for good damage.
    -Great setup for Karakusa (LK or EX is best)

    Negatives:

    -Long recovery if whiff, esp if HK is used after.
    -Below average start up.
    -If abused, it can be easily punished.

    Analysis: tMK is a great way to quickly close the distance between your opponent from mid range. You really want them to either get hit or block it. Whiffing it is dangerous unless they are trying to poke you just after and get caught by stHK (if you press it). Watch out for neutral jumps. You can be punished pretty bad for whiffing. Also, don't do this from too close. Start up can be thrown on reaction.

    Positives

    -What projectile?
    -Makoto has some good priority jumping normals (MP, HP, and HK)
    -HK Tsurgi has a HUGE downward hitbox
    -Jump back HP is GDLK
    -Builds good meter when you're facing projectile characters.

    Negatives

    - j.MK is tough to use as a cross up.
    - Without Tsurugi, regular jumping is very high, floaty, and predictable.
    - Blocked Tsurugi is -1f (?). So you can catch SPD, or other 1f moves.

    Analysis: Jumping is probably the worst habit anyone can have when it is used outside of its purpose. Although it does have its purpose, Jumping repeatedly can make Makoto VERY predictable, and that's always bad. The problem with her jumping is there isn't much she can do in the air besides Tsurugi. Outside of that, she is defeneless in the air. Do not EVER attempt to do A2A Tsurugi. You will only get it 1 out of 30 times, and even then its not worth it. Jumping (outside of Tsurugi) should generally be used to move away from the opponent, when punishing a mistake, or when setting up safe jumps or meaties. So when jumping towards, do it to be a bit unpredictable. Do NOT abuse jumping. You will lose. Remember: All of Makoto's good moves can only be used when she is on the GROUND.
    The most important part of Makoto's game is her defense. What most people don't realize is that defense is Makoto's most consistent way to victory, creating many more opportunities to start her mix-ups with less risk than jumping or dashing or random EX Hayates.

    When in footsie range, her defense is top notch:
    + Her anti-air game is within the top 10 of all of AE, and can lead to pressure because of her dash.
    + Her pokes have massive priority, allowing her to buffer Hayates into pokes very successfully.
    + Air-to-air her j.HP is one of the best jumping heavies in the game, in terms of speed and hit-box. j.MP has an amazing hit-box on it as well, though is far more situational in use.
    + Her FA is within the top 10 of the game.
    + Excellent neutral jumping mix-ups

    Her defensive flaws are:
    - A very precise AA game, which when coupled with lag and surprise jump-ins can lead to failed AAs or free jump-ins. She has no SRK, which means some characters like T. Hawk and the twins can mess with her AAs in a mind game of their own.
    - Her best pokes can make AAing hard after.
    - When under pressure, her options are limited and often only one or two options can get an opponent out of Makoto's hair. Without a 3-frame crouching light attack or an SRK, this is expected.
    Playing defensively is about psyching out an opponent to walk into your pokes and jump at you and make rash moves. You do this by building meter, creating a smoke screen of normals and buffer pokes, and positioning yourself right.

    - Building meter. Makoto has two realistic options for building meter: mid-screen and back HP Oroshi, and neutral jumping LK or HK Tsurugi.

    Every HP Oroshi builds 30 meter, which is 1/8 a bar. Not only that, it is an effective AA at the right angle. Try to be just beyond jumping distance while using Oroshis, and be mindful of characters able to punish.

    Tsurugis only build 10 meter, but they're much safer, serving as a poke and AA, as well as moving Makoto. The key is to trick an opponent into wanting to move between these, and react appropriately.

    Building meter ... like this, LOL.



    - Using footsies defensively.
    a. Buffer pokes
    b. f+MP
    c. Back dash, forward dash spacing (Haitani special!)
    d. Smoke screen normals like s.LK and s.LP
    e. Neutral jump MK, neutral jump HK Tsurugi
    f. Jump back HP
    g. s.HK
    h. Shuffling back and forth
    i. Random FAs

    Get a healthy amount of these defensive tools in, finding what works and what doesn't for you. All of these tools work well together at mid-screen, the trick is to not get predictable, and being in control, rather than merely pressing buttons. When you "randomly" hit s.LP or s.LK, you're not pressing buttons, you're saying, "jump at me so I can Fukiage you."

    Watch Shiro vs. Mago to see a more fitting picture of what I wrote, where he goes nuts, but sneaks in buffer pokes and attacks.

    Assuming you are doing nothing and no extraneous factors like lag are involved, you should be able to AA 90% of normal jump-ins that have the intent to hit you and have no trickery, like arc changing moves or super jumps.

    In terms of a diagram, crafted by a master artist, Robot Makoto (HELP MAKE A NEW ONE, ANYONE WHO ISN'T TERRIBLE AT ART!!!):

    Makoto.png

    1. LP Fukiage. This is a huge buff for AE Makoto, because the hit-box is way above her hurt-box now. It beats cross-ups, straight down angled attacks like Seth's dive kicks and Vega's j.HP, and is even useful for a direct AA in front of her. Assuming the opponent doesn't empty jump, it will even beat far out jumping attacks! When you AA with this, follow it up with a (Kara if needed) HP Fukiage, jump canceled EX Tsurugi for a total of 328 damage!

    2. MP Fukiage. Same deal as above, just make sure you have those two extra frames to spare.

    3. HP Fukiage. 12 frames of start-up, but an excellent AA if you can get there in time.

    4. c.MK. When you can't react in time for a Fukiage, this is her go-to AA. Buffed a bit in AE, the hurt-box is a bit below the hit-box, making it deceptively good for stuffing even relatively high-priority jumping attacks, like Dudley's j.HK at most ranges. It's a little slow at 7 frames, but the fact that it's a down-back AA allows it to be used comfortably. After AAing, dash forward to cross-up and you'll have frame advantage for a meaty.

    5. s.LP. While the hit-box on this isn't ideal for AAs, it is quick enough at many angles to punish things like a missed jump-in that crosses up, or a deep jumping attack that doesn't have a special angled approach. What IS ideal about it is you have so much frame advantage after a dash up, you can hit-confirm s.MP, Ultra, or just plain s.MP, s.HP. Mainly you'll use this to AA the twins.

    6. s.MP. While a fantastic AA, it's more situational than one might think. Generally an opponent doesn't jump at this range, and even so, c.MK is the go-to AA due to safety. However, if you can land this instead, it's ideal due to it giving much more frame advantage after an AA dash in than c.MK, due to the higher hit-box making the opponent get hit higher and fall for longer.

    7. s.MK. The go-to AA for mid-range and long-range jumping attacks, as well as neutral jumps, due to its good hit-box. The only real disadvantage is there often isn't enough time to dash under an opponent due to the 12 frames of recovery. c.HK can be used at this range for a bit more damage, but its quite a bit slower and allows an even worse mix-up than s.MK. c.HK is the normal to use to beat out those pesky powerful jump-ins, like Balrog's j.HK, Vega's j.HP, and E. Honda's j.MP.

    8. s.HP. VERY situational AA, but a buff option in the sweet spot it hits. Always Hayate Cancel it to recover faster.

    Generally the idea is Fukiage if you can, c.MK or s.MK if you can't.
    Buffer poking is the act of throwing out pokes, with a Hayate motion within, outside of an opponent's range, then letting your opponent walk into, poke at, or use a special to go into your poke and activate the Hayate. Essentially, it's an option select that activate the Hayate due to moves being cancelable only on hit or block, not whiff. This is great for Makoto, because Hayates are quite unsafe on block, and her pokes have great range and priority.

    In effect, the act of buffer poking can enable her to land a Hayate and start pressure after, all the while stopping advances. Effectively she can zone with this, especially if one's AAs are on point. In short, it's a great footsie tool.

    1. c.MP buffered MP or EX Hayate. Her best buffer poke. It has a great hit-box and massive range, and a very reasonable recovery time of 9 frames. This will beat most pokes in the game, as long as it doesn't go above them, like some c.MKs. The only problem with this is its 6 active frames and 9 recovery frames can lead to whiff punishing pretty easily by something like Fei Long's Rekkas. Against Balrog with EX, buffering EX Karakusa is very potent, catching EX Dash Punches.

    2. c.LK buffered LP or EX Hayate. Upgraded massively in AE, EX Hayate combos off of this and its range was buffed. It's Makoto's only buffer poke to beat low attacks, like the Shotos' c.MKs and c.LKs. Considering its massive priority, its speed, and its 14 frame total duration letting AAs thrive after and being very hard to whiff punish, this is ideal when c.MP isn't working against a foe due to frequent jump-ins or other factors.

    3. s.MP buffered MP or EX Hayate. An interesting buffer poke, it can be ideal for many situations where c.MP will lose or go under a poke, and when c.LK will go under a poke or not reach. The only bad part is that it loses to low attacks easily. Useful against Sagat's s.HK, against Dudley's f+HP and s.HP (which beat c.MP), and others.

    4. s.LP/c.LP buffered LP or EX Hayate. An intensely useful buffer poke, with many advantages over the other buffer pokes listed: its range is shorter so that there's less chance of accidentally hitting an opponent, and it's quicker so it's less likely to be whiff punished and much more likely to maintain AA ability on whiff. Against characters who don't have amazing c.MKs or c.HKs, this move is godly in footsies.

    5. s.MK buffered MP or EX Hayate. While this has the most impressive range of her buffer pokes, it also has the longest recovery on it, and only hits mid-high. Due to its 12 frames of recovery, be very careful.

    Buffer poking is situational to an opponent and his character. Generally, if the opponent likes jumping, try not to buffer poke needlessly. If you find you're getting stuffed, change it up with one of the other three, or throw in the super buff s.HK. If your opponent likes to FA, switch to LP Hayate as your buffer poke.

    One tip to buffer poking is to look directly at your opponent while doing it. You can c.MK on reaction to a jump, and if you buffer another 236 or two after your Hayate, you can LP Fukiage on reaction to a jump, time allowed.
    To be frank, when under pressure, Makoto's options are limited and require the right tool for the job; no SRK here. Against opponents such as Dudley, Guy, Cammy, Yun, and many others, once they're in, it's bad. Generally you should block, POSSIBLY do a late crouch tech, and just try not to lose all your life until you turn the situation around. Learn your options!

    - Very late crouch tech. The general strategy while being pressured if you press anything at all, it can lose to throws if unlucky and late frame traps. Considering Makoto's lack of c.LK chains, I like to do a back throw immediately after landing a crouch tech, to at least reset the situation, if not start momentum. Against opponents with a dive kick or an aerial overhead/attack, c.MK can be added to the crouch tech to cover those as well; useful against Ibuki, Fei Long, C. Viper, Oni, Dan, Yun, Yang, Juri, Chun-Li, Cammy, Cody, Evil Ryu, Rufus, El Fuerte, and Vega.

    - Back dash. Sometimes necessary, but you must be sparing with this due to a few factors: it's a long back dash, you lose positioning, and on prediction it can be very painful. Against Dudley, Zangief, Guy, Balrog, and Sakura, this can be particularly useful. A tip is you can cancel between the 22nd frame and 27th frame into a special; buffer Fukiage or U1 to counter jumps or slow OSs.

    - Back throw. It's Makoto's only 3-frame blocking positioned defense. Some characters are particularly prone to this when up close and it can gain more validity than normal. Not recommended against frame trappers. Against Makoto, Dudley, and Guy, this can be particularly effective, though all three have options that smash throws.

    - s.HK. Interestingly, when pushed back to a certain distance, 8-frame s.HK is viable for spamming. It lifts up Makoto's front leg immediately, creating a super buff poke with a far-back hurt-box. This loses to far reaching pokes and fast far hit-confirms and fast walk up throws during pressure, but you'll be surprised how often something like mashing s.HK can work.

    - U2 to get out of trouble. Depending on where on the screen you are, this can work very well. Character specific.

    - EX Karakusa. Due to the range buff, it pains me to say this, but mashing EX Karakusa is now viable. Be VERY sparing with this, as it loses to throw, jumps, and it can be hard to get out a half-circle mash within a few frame period.

    - Instant air MK Tsurugi. The ultimate read! If you pick up on predictable throw patterns, you can hold up and make an opponent pay dearly for throwing poor old Makoto. Outside of mashing Ultras (shame on you!), this is her only true way to punish throws.

    - EX Oroshi. Mainly good against specific attacks, like Cammy's EX Cannon Strike. It's strike invincible 12 of its 18 start-up frames, meaning it's very easily hit out of if the opponent uses fast attacks.

    - Jump back HP. Applicable mainly against T. Hawk and Hakan. It lets Makoto get away if given a gap and shields her with a buff attack.

    - Ultra 1. Notice I put this below jump back HP? It's because you don't do this. Don't. Stop, you damn Makoto scrubs who mash Ultra! On the other hand, it can be useful when the chips are down and it's important to try a comeback.
    Like Abel, Makoto is simultaneously free on wake-up while having the options to beat 90% of what an opponent can do.

    - 4+LP+LK+MK+MP, back dash. Very interesting OS. It techs meaty throws, focus absorbs an attack then escapes, and screws with the opponent's OS timing. Loses to armor breakers, command grabs, non-meaty throws, and certain attacks canceled into certain specials. Buffer Ultra or LP Fukiage into the back dash to beat jumps. Haitani does this constantly.

    - 1+LP+LK, buffered Fukiage. Useful for countering neutral jumps on your wake up. If this doesn't work out for you, you can do a crouch tech, then make your second crouch tech a c.LP+c.LK+c.MK to OS a neutral jump.

    - U2 to get out of trouble. Character and spacing specific. Beats OSs, due to the U2 flash coming 16 frames later instead of instantly! Try to always aim away from your opponent unless desperate.

    - EX Karakusa to beat meaties and 4, 5, and 6 frame safe jumps. Be careful with this. Most opponents will neutral jump or do an armor breaker or throw when first attacking a knocked down Makoto, so be very, very careful about doing this without a read. Technically any safe jump this could catch can turn into an empty jump and throw, so be careful.

    - U1 to beat 7 frame safe jumps or more.

    - LP Fukiage to beat 8 frame and more jumps. You can buffer Fukiage on wake up and react to the timing, since 8 frames or more are very identifiable. Mainly good for poorly timed cross-up attempts.

    - IA MK Tsurugi. Throwing Makoto on wake up is very effective and safe ... this is your one chance to turn that around.

    - EX Oroshi to beat specific attacks, like Cammy's EX Cannon Strike.
    If you don't know what an Option Select (OS) is or how they are applied in SF, please check out this thread. It has notes and videos to really help you along.

    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/sf4-game-mechanics-option-selects.141486/

    Techthrow/focus backdash
    crLK+LP+MP+MK -> back dash

    - techthrow
    - focus (absorb)+backdash if opponent tries to hit
    - focus (no absorb)+backdash if opponent does nothing

    It's especially useful again tick-throw 50/50 mixup. (after a guarded shoryu FADC, for example. Or even after dive kicks/canon strike too). It's good to avoid being counter hit with a normal crouch tech. And good with Makoto because opponent sometimes tries to throw (knowing EX Karakusa/Oroshi are throw vulnerable)
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Focus Attacks are naturally effective against Makoto.

    - Tsurugi is almost always a free combo when you hit a charging FA. Considering how damaging and versatile Tsurugis are in many sorts of mix-ups both long range and up close, this can really get in your head if you eat 300 damage for trying this.
    - Any normal into any Hayate besides LP Hayate and ANY Oroshi can be FAed between.
    - No 3 frame jab to help fight against AA FAs.
    - No anti-backdash SRK to avoid the "backdash or not" option an opponent has after getting attacked while using an AA FA.
    - Her buffer pokes into optimal Hayates will always get messed up.

    The trick to effectively beating FAs is to try to identify when and where your opponent likes using them, then not let yourself get caught by them ... and turn "random" FAs and AA FAs into your favor.

    From closest range to furthest range from your opponent, here are Makoto's options. Especially good options have an *.

    Counter FA - Good tool for when they're getting greedy with FAs, but backdash-able on their part into punish. This can be very 50-50-esque, so try not to get caught up in this game if you can help it.

    Backdash - I guess this is good, but Makoto's backdash is too long and lengthy. FAs have roughly 35 frames of recovery, backdash at best has 22 frames of recovery if canceled into special perfectly. If you backdashed before the FA whiffed, you can punish easily.

    c.LK xx LP Hayate - Using strictly on reaction to an FA at close range. Useful during baits while attacking an opponent who FAs in between!

    *s.MP buffered LP Hayate - A good buffer poke due to its hit-box, but it's quite possible to get whiff punished doing this due to the forward arc of FAs.

    s.LK, s.MK TC - Probably her only consistent way of beating a FA at sweep range, but the damage sucks. I personally don't like this move except for catching dive kicks, so I'd have to put it in specifically to target FA whores.

    *Neutral jump - Very good tool. Use j.HK into a combo to punished whiffed FAs, and backdash if your opponent holds the charge and lets go upon your landing.

    s.MK xx LP Hayate - Useful on reaction to a FA, but due to its recovery it can be risky to buffer poke with this against good FAs.

    *c.MP buffered LP Hayate - The ideal buffer poke against FAs when almost in range. Make sure to use this and not MP/EX Hayate, as they will get hit between the two moves.

    *Dash up backthrow/Karakusa - Good players may backdash their FA upon seeing the dash. Backthrow is the most consistent option and safest on whiff, and even HK Karakusa is easy to land so long as your opponent doesn't backdash.

    *Yamase - Her best answer to FAs as long as your opponent not in Makoto's face. With CH it should be close to 250 damage.

    Empty jump, backthrow/Karakusa - This is actually really hard to AA with FA. Nigh impossible with most FAs unless it's a FA that specifically can AA, like Sagat and Balrog. With Ultra 1, this can lead to a lot of pain. Backthrow is more consistent and safe like dashing in, but it really is hard to stop Karakusa via this.

    *Low to the ground j.HP, backdash, s.MK xx EX Hayate - This should do 320 damage and a bunch of stun. Ideal.

    EX Hayate - Good for long range FA baits, but not up close. Generally reserved for opponents who are really showing their hands.

    V-Ryu was kind enough to make an interesting video on how to potentially deal with FA backdashers.

    There aren't many block strings that Makoto needs to use. Why? Because if they constantly block, then you Karakusa them lol.

    The problem with using Makoto is actually getting the opponent to sit there and block. Most people are so afraid of Karakusa that they'd rather get killed while trying get away. You using block strings is important because it makes them hesitate to dash back, mash a reversal, jump back, or mash jabs because they are stuck in block stun or get punished hard for mashing. Here's two good ones:

    1. jHP, stHP, MP Oroshi, s.MP, LP Oroshi- Punishes mashed jabs/throws. The Oroshi (s) beat jumping up or back. Beats any move besides invuln reversal or most ultras.. This even works on a crouching Balrog... I get both oroshi to hit.

    2. (after a MP/HP Hayate hit) c.LK, LP Hayate, c.MP, MP Hayate-I know a lot of people don't trust LP Hayate. Well on its own, it is no good. However, when used in conjunction with the moves described, It becomes great. Here's why:

    -After LP Hayate in this instance, you are too far to be thrown. You are also too far to be jabbed (except maybe by Balrog. Maybe).
    -If they attempt to throw, they miss and your c.MP hits them for free combo into MP Hayate.
    -If they attempt to jab, your c.mp hits for possible Counter hit combo.

    Putting 1 and 2 together in the corner, you get a really nasty long block string during which they can do nothing. You get something that looks like this:

    jHP, stHP, MP Oroshi, stMP,MP Oroshi, c.MP, MP Hayate, cLK, EX Oroshi.

    These can be modified greatly but we will get to that later. What is important now is to understand that 1-at any point during this block string you can get a COUNTER HIT and 2. you will be building A LOT of meter. Both of these points are crutial to playing with Makoto.
    Ah the meaty setups. The cornerstone of her SSIV incarnation. I watch a lot of makotos... Many of them are good. They would be better, though, if they used meaty setups.

    OROSHI-Beats just about everything except back dashing, Ultra and invuln reversals. Beats EVERYTHING else and makes some stuff whiff (like DeeJay 1 hit upwards kick thingy just whiffs completely and is free for you to punish). Combos into MP both standing and crouching, and gives enough time to combo into super>ultra for crazy damage. Also, a good set up for Kara EX Karakusa (discussed later).

    STANDING MP- can be very meaty? timed correctly it hits on the very last active frame on most characters. You can combo into A LOT of stuff off of this starting at stHP all the way to Ultra 1.

    CROUCHING LK- has a very specific use. Makoto doesn?t have many low attacks. This one is amazing. Used meaty, you can net some really big damage. Combos into st.MP and Ultra 1. One very devastastating combo everyone should learn is:

    NOTE-(after EX Oroshi), dash, jump (whiff normal), cLK, stMP, EX Oroshi. Feels HORRIBLE get hit by this lol.

    STANDING HK- very powerful and can combo for a crap load of stun. Combos into stMP and Ultra 1 (I think)

    Here are some important setups:

    1. cHP, dash, (meaty) MP Oroshi

    2. cHP, dash, dash, (meaty) stMP

    3. Back throw, dash, cLK, (meaty) MP Oroshi

    4. Back throw, HP Hayate, (meaty) stHK

    5. EX Oroshi, dash, NJ or Forward Jump (whiff move), (land), (meaty) c.LK

    6. Ultra 1, Dash, st. LP, Instant MK Tsurugi, (meaty) stHK

    7. CHP, Dash, stLP, (meaty) stHK

    These are the main ones I find most useful, but there are many more. I?ll update later.
    You can crossover (from now on, just Cross) a dead body... ahem.. i mean a knocked down opponent by using tHK (hold). These are the two we use the most:

    1- Back throw, dash, fHK (feint), Shenanigan
    2- EX oroshi, dash, cLP, fHK (feint), Shenanigan

    It requires some setting up, but there are many benefits to switching sides. The two

    1-if playing a charge character, they lose their back charge, which limits their options. This increases the chance that you can guesss what they will do.

    2- done quickly enough, you can freeze the opponent. If you confuse them for just a few frames, you can catch them with an attack.

    3. you have moves that can hit them meaty or from a distance. If they try to mash out, many times, since you crossed over, they will actually do the reverse motion of what they were trying to do and nothing will come out.

    You can do a lot of damage both to the charater and the player's mind by changing their expectations on the fly. Opponents tend to block the wrong way, get desperate and mash throw/jab. You can take great advantage of this. Here's some Shenanigans:

    1- Cross, Yamase
    2- Cross, Sweep
    3- Cross, tHK
    4- Cross, Dash, Karakusa
    5- Cross, tHK (hold), Karakusa
    6- Cross, Kara EX Oroshi
    7- Cross, Kara HK Karakusa

    Safe Jumps are important because they allow you to mask the fact that you are BAITING THEM lol. Most baiting is obvious. the ol' "standing next to them on wake up pretending like i'm gonna attack and... then.... OH NO I BACKDASHED YOUR SRK/ULTRA!!" lol. Awesome. The one downside to safe jumps is that the timing is stringent, and many of them are, well, not character specific, but they are "move start up" specific. We talk about these safe jumps as relative to what type of moves they work on. Though there is A LOT of info out there on these... But here's a few to get you started:
    Many characters have 4+ Frame reversals (DPs). Most notable 5 Frame reversals are Cammy, Sagat, and, and Fei long (there are many others). The first two names safe jumps beat 4+ frame ultras (like bison's U1). There are a few ways to deal with these. Here are a few Safe jumps to use against 4+ Frame reversals:

    --Backthrow, fMP (whiff), NJ attack. (4f)
    --Backthrow, stMK (whiff), NJ attack. (5f)
    --EX Oroshi, Dash, stLP (whiff), NJ attack (4f)
    --EX Hayate, Straight jumping attack (4f)
    There is only one 3+ Frame revesal that I know about (although I'm still researching this). This one works on those SRKs that are difficult to bait and punish otherwise:

    stHP, EX Oroshi, stHK (whiff) NJ MK.

    Blocks ALL SRKs, beats crouchblocking, crouch teching, mashing lights and throw. must be blocked high. Loses to EX Ground throws (like Abel EX TT and, I believe Mak's EX Kara. Gotta check on that though).

    Instant Tsurugi is an amazing pressure tool. It has a great downward hitbox, gives great stun, has great range, and can be used in a variety of ways. HK Tsurugi should be used at max range for maximum effectiveness. It does 150 (!) damage, gives knock down... really good move. MK and LK Tsurugi combo into just about any of her normals and Ultra 1.

    Here's how to do Instant Tsurugi (IAT): 9214 K. Its that simple. I see a lot of people asking how to do it. well there it is. Now... depending on when you use, it can be easier than other times. This is because its easier to hold 9 while another move is recovering and then do 214 k, than to do the entire motion fluidly. Here's when you should use it

    In block strings:

    1.cLP, stLP, (hold 9 during the recovery of stLP), IAT.
    2.c.LP, c.LP, c.LK, (hold 9), IAT.
    3.stMP, tMP, IAT.
    4.HP Hayate (hit), stLP/MP (block) [hold 9], IAT.

    Pretty much any block string that you can create with Makoto may have holes. During these holes you can either attempt a attempt a throw, be prepared to throw tech, backdash, or IAT. Each has its own positive/negative attributes, so learn to use them wisely.

    To punish throw attempts

    1. Look for Predictable Block strings. Once you start blocking hold 9. Makoto will continue to block until they mistime a hit, or try to throw you. As soon as they do, you'll jump. Be prepared to imput the motion for IAT. Use LK or MK in this situation and continue your combo to net huge damage.

    2. Makoto has a horrible cross up game. Use this to your advantage. In a situation where your opponent is thinking you will cross them up, jump but don't hit a button in the air. Wait till you hit the ground, then do IAT on the other side. This works especially well after a untech. knockdown. For instance:

    -EX Oroshi. Dash, forward jMK (on the way up) [hold 7 here!!], (land), IAT.

    Since you're landing on the other side, a lot of people will try to throw you while recovering. Depending on the character, you'll have to leave off the jMK, but most of the time since your holding 7 (which is u/f on the other side of course), you'll jump out of the throw. If you quickly do IAT, you will hit their throw attempt. This can be used while the opponent is standing, but i suggest you leave the whiffing air normal out.

    After beating an air attack

    A LOT of people try to throw after losing an air to air. . So after doing jHP against someone in the air, hold u/f, land, and do IAT. Most of the time you will both land around the same time and if they try to throw you, IAT will hit them. This also works especially well after a good anti air or reset. So if they do jumping (whatever) and you anti air them with cMK, get ready for IAT. Or even better, dash under (usually increasing the chance that they will throw), and do IAT on the other side. There are many many options!

    Pre reset

    Makoto has many ways to reset the opponent. All of them give the same result, but the trick is what you will do after. You can cause a reset using:

    1-Any air to air normal. Usually you will land first, and Makoto doesn't have a normal with pursuit properties. Therefore they wil always land on their feet. As Tsurrgi has little priority against other air attacks, it should be used sparingly. You won't be doing many resets using Tsurugi. So we will stick with the normals.

    2-Any anti-air normal. Same as 1, except you're on the ground. Makoto doesn't have a ground normal (besides sweep) that gives a knock down.

    3. tLK after a juggle. This is the best way to reset. It is extremely confusing for the opponent. I say its the best because the timing on your attack just after the reset will always be the same. For 1 and 2 it may vary a little. But for the tLK reset, you can pretty much practice your timing very easily. You can create a reset after

    -any fukiage
    -EX Hayate, FADC
    -(corner) EX Hayate
    -(corner) FA lvl2/3, dash, level 2 Hayate (any strength will juggle, but it will change the timing on your tLK.

    4. After a focus crumple. Wait for them to hit the ground... and you can do c.LK to reset them. They can be, literally, lying on the ground, and you can still reset them. You may be able to catch them off guard. This one is awesome because if you dash under, 9 times out of 10 you can catch them with either EX Karakusa, sweep, or stMP/HP>MP/HP Hayate. I use this as insureance just in case i mess up a Focus crumple>IAT. Sometimes I"ll jump and whiff on accident. If that happens, just cLK and dash under to continue your pressure.

    Post Reset

    After your reset you have many options.

    1. Outside of the corner- You can go for a reset, then go for a meaty stMP or stHK for great damge and stun. You can also dash under and do the same thing. If you really want to confuse your opponent, go for IAT. You can also try throwing. If you expect them to dash back, you can dash forward and kara kusa, or use f HK for a good knockdown.

    2.Opponent in the corner- please do not dash into the corner. But also be aware that you are both a bit more vulnerable if you are going for an attack. Easiest thing to do is (meaty) stMP/stHK after reset. Most liketly it will be after EX Hayate. If they block you can go into other options such as sweep, Oroshi, or just let it recover and do IAT. I don't suggest doing Hayate Cancel (HC) here as you'll lose some frame advantage. Try to predict what your opponent will do-

    -If they stand there, Karakusa will work.

    -If they back dash, meaty stMP/MK may not catch them, but LK/EX Karakusa their back dash recovery.

    -They may try to attack. If its not invuln reversal/ultra then No problem. Your meaty stMP/stHK/karakusa will beat it out. Doesn't matter what move it is.

    -They may try to jump. Now there are two ways to handle this. The safer way is to wait and see if they'll jump. This also beats reversals (since you're blocking). When they jump do MP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. BIG damage. The unsafe way is to do MP Fukiage directly after the reset. I do this if i absolutely know they will jump because it actually hits them on the way up. Looks cool. Use only when showing off lol. Another thing is, If Fukiage hits the airborne frames of Backdash in AE this will become useful to beat backdashing later. But we aren't talking about AE are we... :(:(:(:(...

    Karakusa is an extremely important tool. It allows you to grab the opponent when they least suspect it. Now, this isn't a how to guide, this is a strategy guide (although some things did have to be clarified. There's another thread for how to do the three types of Kara Kara kusa (mini, normal, and shortcut).

    What will be provided here is the "strategy" part. You really can't just go around throwing karakusa out. You will die a quick and painful death. No it has its place, just like everything else Makoto does.

    In block strings

    Karakusa is great as a tick throw. Works especially well after cLK or after a stMP (no hayate cancel). The problem is, you can get thrown/jabbed out of it. This can be alleviated by using Kara EX kara in most cases. It still won't beat a normal throw, but if they push any other button, their ass is grass.

    Also, HK Kara Karakusa has great range. It can be used after a max range c.MP Hayate cancel. This ensures you can't get grabbed out of it, because you are grabbing them from much further than their normal throw range. Here's some good set upsfrom block strings:

    1. HP Hayate, cLK, LP Hayate, cMP, HC, Kara HK Karakusa
    2. HP Hayate (hit), stLP/MP, Kara HK Karakusa
    3. cLP, stLP, Kara EX Karakusa
    4. cLP, stLP, stMP, HC, Kara HK Karakusa

    After meaty attacks

    I almost exclusively use Kara EX Karakusa for meaty attack. This is espeically the case after a meat stMP. They only have 1~2 frames to react, and even then only a perfect backdash, ultra input, invuln reversal, or jump would work. It beats all mashing normals and throws. See the Meaties section for more info.

    Vryu says:
    the ONLY things opponent can do if you stMP -> kara EX karakusa are throw/jump/backdash/invuln moves.

    f+LK is cancelable from frame 1 to 6 by special moves. (From frame 1 to 2 by normal throw.)
    So, EXkarakusa will throw from frame 6 to 11, depending on when you cancel your f+LK.

    The fastest light have 3F startup, meaning opponent will be able to hit you at frame 8 (3 frames after his hitstun).
    At frame 8, even if you cancel f+LK at the last frame (6), EX karakusa will be armored from 6 to 11 and will catch him.

    After Resets

    Using Karakusa after a reset is devastating to the opponent. You can net so much damage and stun after single reset. Its also mentally difficult to bear, and can make your opponent panic. See the reset secion for details on how to reset.
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71

    All her combos can change the Hayate to an EX Hayate to do more damage and corner her foe, and possibly follow up with a LP Fukiage. s.MP and s.HP and combo into EX Oroshi, which is an untechable knockdown with many setups - in AE, generally EX Oroshi is used to keep someone in the corner or you're playing a high-low game.

    Jumping Hit-confirms

    - j.HP, c.LP, s.LP, c.LK xx LP Hayate - 2 frame link. Your basic hit-confirm, not too hard. Whiffs on some characters, and randomly whiffs sometimes.
    - j.HP, c.LP, s.LP, s.MP xx MP Hayate - 1 frame link, optimal damage after a chain.
    - j.HP, s.MP, c.LK xx LP Hayate - 2 frame link, basically the same as doing c.LP, s.LP instead of s.MP except this version does more damage at the cost of less time to hit-confirm.
    - j.HP, s.MP, s.MP xx MP Hayate - 1 frame link, this is the go-to bread and butter for a jumping attack because Makoto can't hit low anyway, and it leaves her at +2 on block if you stop while simultaneously frame trapping if you continue on block.
    - j.HP, s.HP xx HC, c.LK xx LP Hayate - 2 frame link. In terms of hit-confirms, this is Makoto's most damaging 2 framer, but it has several disadvantages compared to using s.MP as a starter; it knocks back more, leaves Makoto at +1 frame advantage instead of +2, and you really should stop at s.HP xx HC on block.
    - j.HP, s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx MP Hayate - 1 frame link. This is Makoto's universally most damaging hit-confirm. It's an awkward 1 framer, but there are many advantages to using s.MP over c.LK; more meter, more stun, more damage, and a better Hayate if you're not using EX Hayate.

    Meaties

    - Meaty s.MP, s.MP xx MP Hayate - s.MP is one of the best meaty normals in the game, due to its 7 active frames, which when perfectly meaty give her +8 on block, +11 on hit! The best part about this meaty is even with poor timing, it's always combo-able.
    - Perfectly meaty s.HK, s.MK xx MP Hayate - Very damaging. Even without EX Hayate, this does 250 damage and 446 stun! With EX Hayate into LP Fukiage and EX Tsurugi, this does a whopping 474 damage and 657 stun! Try to use a set-up, you have to be very meaty to be able to combo after s.HK.
    - Meaty MP Oroshi, c.LK xx EX Hayate - Standard overhead meaty follow-up.
    - Perfectly meaty MP Oroshi, s.HP xx HP Hayate or Ultra 1. With a good setup, it's easy to get a +11 MP Oroshi on hit! Try to maximize damage here if you've obtained good frame advantage. Sadly, this isn't on the same level as some other high-low games, mainly because Makoto doesn't have a very powerful low game and because on block Makoto is neutral with her opponent AT BEST, but with Ultra or lots of meter, this can be a deadly meaty.

    Mid-screen FA2

    FA2, LP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate. Maximum cornering for one meter, this really can be unfair for a hit FA2.
    FA2, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. Maximum damage for 1 meter outside of the corner.
    FA2, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate. Best meterless damage and a great position after.
    FA2, LK Karakusa, s.HP xx HC, Blockakusa. The only reason to go into Karakusa after an FA is for trickery.

    Others

    - Karakusa, (Ultra 1)/(s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx MP Hayate)/(s.HP xx EX Hayate if able to follow-up)/(s.HP xx HC, c.LK xx LP Hayate) in that order of use and need.
    - Instant air MK Tsurugi, Ultra 1/(s.HP/s.MP/c.MP) xx Hayate, in that order of range.
    Frame traps work by attacking an opponent within the start-up of their crouch-tech or jabs or whatever worse they would throw out, based on trapping them within a tight period of your own frame advantage from a previous attack, where with perfect timing not only will your attack win, but their attack will get stuffed and you get more frame advantage and damage. The one thorn in this is that not everyone crouch techs the same; some mash, some do slow and rhythmic teching according to your attacks, and some are wary of frame traps (or don't know about crouch teching and always guess throw or block) and choose not to press any buttons. If they mash, the less of a gap between attacks, the better. If they're slow, you want to purposely use a wider gap. If they press no buttons, you have to play a high/low game if you want to break them up by attacking, but then again, you now have the opportunity to throw them.

    Makoto has a small but powerful set of frame traps. Mainly you should get into a s.LP or s.MP from a chain or a jump-in, since they're the only two normals she has that are +2 on block. The key with her frame traps is to limit your unconfirmed Hayates, opting instead for either a Hayate cancel to go into mix-ups, EX Oroshi, or plain s.MP/s.LP/max range c.HP to end it.

    Note: All attacks are assumed blocked unless I note they're on hit.

    - 1 frame gaps: used to catch non-invincible reversals and to catch mashers, but be wary, even mashers won't have necessarily pressed a button if you leave only a 1 frame gap. Considering the nature of f+LP, I don't really recommend either of these.

    (Hit) HP Hayate, f+LP. On counter hit, you can continue comboing into c.LK, but there are a few problems with this: it's a 1 frame link, you can't hit-confirm it into c.LK xx Hayate without unconditionally following up with the c.LK either way, and it's very unsafe if you fail. Generally this frame trap is used to shut down opponents from pressing buttons and allowing you to continue pressure with normals or other mix-ups.

    s.LP/s.MP, f+LP. Same deal, but generally there's no need for this because there isn't such a build-up to the situation where people get to think for a few seconds on what to do.

    - 2 frame gaps: the optimal amount of frame disparage needed to trap a masher, as well as those who attempt to stand throw.

    (Hit) MP Hayate, f+LP. Unlike HP Hayate, there isn't as much oki due to further distance from the opponent, and you're only at +1, meaning less frame trap ability. I consider this a very legitimate frame trap, if only to keep the opponent at rest. In terms of grounded moves, your best safe bets are this and kara-throw.

    s.HP xx Hayate Cancel, f+LP. Like above, your only consistent grounded options here are throw and f+LP, otherwise you're vulnerable.

    (Hit) HP Hayate, c.LK xx EX Hayate. This is the most consistent punish to attack someone who tries jumping or teching or throwing or jabbing or plain hitting any non-invincible button after an HP Hayate while being mildly safe against most characters.

    c.LP, s.LP, c.LK xx EX Hayate. Unlike with f+LP, I consider this frame trap to be better than after a Hayate, because people get conditioned to hold back against Makoto while under normal pressure.

    s.LP/s.MP, s.LP, s.MP xx anything. This is your best "safe" hit-confirm frame trap. It's relatively easy to combo from s.LP to s.MP, especially when s.LP becomes +6 due to counter hit, and the whole string keeps frame advantage and combos into itself. I recommend you Hayate Cancel the s.MP, do a Tsurugi/dash up throw afterwards, or do an EX Oroshi on block, so as to keep up the pressure, since this whole string knocks you back somewhat.

    - 3 frame gaps: at this point, mashers will definitely have put out an attack and may beat you if your timing is off, and late techers have a good chance to have started an attack at this point.

    (Hit) MP Hayate, c.LK xx EX Hayate. c.LK is bad in trades, so I recommend other alternatives than this.

    s.HP xx Hayate Cancel, c.LK xx EX Hayate. See above.

    s.HP xx EX Oroshi. Roughly a 3 frame gap, if my calculations are correct. This isn't so much to frame trap as it is to hit them blocking low, but it is your best bet if you want to land an EX Oroshi from a normal.

    (Hit) HP Hayate, s.MP xx EX Oroshi. Back in Chocolate SSF4, this was my personal BnB after a hit HP Hayate. There are two opportunities to hit an opponent, and if either hit, you get the damage and the okizeme of an EX Oroshi. The only problem is that this is very prone to trades, but generally it will be in your favor and give you high frame advantage.

    s.LP, s.MP, s.MP xx anything. This is an amazing hit-confirm by itself, and when used on block, it allows for very easy comboing on counter hit, being +8 on hit. You can end it in a somewhat safe EX Oroshi or EX Hayate, or Hayate Cancel on block.

    - 4 frame gaps: specifically to target late techers, but it will often lose to mashers even with perfect timing. Choose this carefully.

    s.LP, s.HP xx MP Oroshi. This is a VERY effective frame trap when it works, because MP Oroshi combos on counter hit from s.HP. Not only that, you can follow this up with c.LK xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi for 448 damage if near a corner ... very few characters can compete with that, especially for two bars and no Ultra. Note you need to be at point blank when you start this combo, without the luxury of a jump-in.

    s.HP xx Hayate Cancel, s.MP xx EX Oroshi. Considering you can't hit-confirm the s.MP, the EX Oroshi is the safest thing you can do in this situation. Not too bad, especially if you were fishing for a hit-confirm anyway.

    - The uber frame trap, many a frame gap, but many a reward!

    (s.LP, s.MP, s.HP xx Hayate Cancel, MP or HP hit Hayate, and to a less extent LP Hayate, f+MP, c.LK, and f+LP), MK Tsurugi. MK Tsurugi is the ultimate in terms of frame traps, leading into as little as c.MP xx MP Hayate or as much as s.HP xx HP Hayate xx Super, Ultra 1! As long as you can leave the ground and they don't specially target a high hit-box, you can frame trap with this, then go into much pain. Look at the Tsurugi section to find out more.

    This is how to do max damage for your meter, relative to your position in the corner. Using an Ultra obviously does more damage, and both Ultras give a lot of Oki, so go for them if applicable.

    Note: everything involving FA2 applies to FA3, just add 60 damage, 50 stun, and 20 meter.

    No meter, no corner, FA2:
    FA2, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate. 282 damage, 474 stun, 138 meter.
    FA2, HP Fukiage JC HK Tsurugi. 265 damage, 418 stun, 100 meter. Possibly the new meterless FA2 BnB, considering it's so easy to accidentally juggle someone after an FA2 with the Tsurugi.

    1 meter, no corner, FA2:
    FA2, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. 326 damage, 522 stun. This is the new 1 meter FA2 BnB for max damage.
    FA2, HP Fukiage JC MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate. 302 damage, 466 stun. Arguably as useful, since you get a better setup and corner your opponent more for a slight loss of damage and stun.

    2 meters, no corner, FA2:
    FA2, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. 358 damage, 554 stun. Can realistically be worth it if it will kill (and the 1 meter alternative doesn't) or will put them within chip damage away from death. After all, we've all ended combos with EX Oroshi instead of a Hayate to take the last pixel of life left.

    3 meters, no corner, FA2:
    FA2, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. 386 damage, 582 stun. Not recommended, but your most damaging option without Ultra.

    4 meters, no corner, FA2:
    FA2, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate xx Super, s.HP xx HP Hayate. 387 damage. Not recommended unless you will kill someone with this.

    No meter, in corner, FA2:
    FA2, HP Fukiage, neutral jumping HP. 230 damage, 453 stun, 114 meter. I consider this optimal because of the extremely good risk vs. reward afterward.
    FA2, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate for max damage when killing them is possible.

    1 meter, in corner, FA2:
    FA2, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage. 338 damage, 572 stun. For me, it's good to know this does the most bang for your buck for one meter.

    2 meters or more, in corner, FA2:
    FA2, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. 402 damage, 650 stun. This is AE Makoto, my friends. Do not use anything but this unless you have Ultra or less than 2 meters. Doing a max damage Super combo from an FA without an Ultra does LESS than this.

    Any meter, no corner, standard punish of a blocked move hasn't changed from SSF4, except for EX Hayate doing the same amount of damage as EX Oroshi and now your goal is to aim for corner placement.

    1 meter, corner, standard punish:
    s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage. 306 damage, 532 stun.
    s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage. 280 damage, 478 stun.
    c.MP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage. 260 damage, 378 stun.

    2 meters, corner, standard punish:
    s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. 402 damage, 664 stun.
    s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. 392 damage, 632 stun. The gap of damage and stun narrows wildly here, consider well if the 1 frame link is worth the 10 damage and 32 stun.

    Stun combos, one meter (this is all assuming the opponent is cornered, and we must start at one meter, otherwise it's the same as SSF4 in terms of efficiency):
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage. 398 damage, 622 stun. It's always ideal to go for this over the meterless alternative unless the meterless alternative will kill your opponent.
    Fully charged HP Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. 398 damage, 516 stun. Good mainly for style points, but there is one very small incentive to this: it's the quickest way to kill someone stunned and low on health while needing 398 damage.

    Stun combo with two meters:
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. 462 damage, 700 stun. Often not worth the meter after a stun, depending on the hits, but it's one of her bread and butter FA punishes.
    It depends on the damage scaling and how much life the opponent has left and meter and all that jazz. Ultimately you go for fully charged HP Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi on most stuns if you can, otherwise you play it by ear.

    No meter:
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, c.HP = 236 damage.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, nj.HP = 242, +25 on a blocked MP Oroshi afterward and obviously a hell of a lot more on hit.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, HK Tsurugi = 272 damage.
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate = 285 damage.

    1 meter:

    FA3, HP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate = 302 damage.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 322 damage.
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage = 330 damage.
    HP Hayate fully charged, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 362 damage.

    2 meter:

    (Max damage) FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 378 damage.

    3 meter:
    FA3, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 340 damage.
    FA3, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 364 damage.

    No meter:
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, c.HP = 203 damage.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, nj.HP = 208, +25 on a blocked MP Oroshi afterward and obviously a hell of a lot more on hit.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, HK Tsurugi = 233 damage.
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate = 242 damage.

    1 meter:

    FA3, HP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate = 256 damage.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 264 damage.
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage = 276 damage.
    HP Hayate fully charged, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 302 damage.

    2 meter:

    (Max damage) FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 308 damage.

    3 meter:
    FA3, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 288 damage.
    FA3, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 308 damage.

    No meter:
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, c.HP = 170 damage.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, nj.HP = 174 damage, +25 on a blocked MP Oroshi afterward and obviously a hell of a lot more on hit.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, HK Tsurugi = 194 damage.
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate = 199 damage.

    1 meter:
    FA3, HP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate = 210 damage.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 222 damage.
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage = 222 damage.
    (Max damage) HP Hayate fully charged, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 259 damage.

    2 meter:
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 238 damage.

    3 meter:
    FA3, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 242 damage.
    FA3, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 258 damage.

    No meter:
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, c.HP = 137 damage.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, nj.HP = 140, +25 on a blocked MP Oroshi afterward and obviously a hell of a lot more on hit.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, HK Tsurugi = 155 damage.
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate = 156 damage.

    1 meter:
    FA3, HP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate = 164 damage.
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage = 168 damage.
    FA3, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 172 damage.
    (Max damage) HP Hayate fully charged, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 208 damage.

    2 meter:
    FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 184 damage.

    3 meter:
    FA3, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 188 damage.
    FA3, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 200 damage.
    Anything beyond 4 hits and you should purely pick based on what your favorite setup/reset is against the player/character you're fighting.

    mid screen after a Fukiage from a crumble state

    HP Fukiage follow-up
    Abel
    Balrog
    C.Viper
    Cammy
    Dan
    Dhalsim
    Evil Ryu
    Gen
    Gouken
    Guy
    Ibuki
    Ken
    Makoto
    Rose
    Ryu
    Sagat
    Sakura
    Seth
    T.Hawk
    Vega
    Yang
    Yun

    EX Fukiage or kara HP Fukiage follow-up
    Adon
    Akuma
    Bison
    Blanka
    Chun Li
    Cody (no 2*EX, maybe kara EX??)
    DeeJay
    Dudley
    E.Honda
    El Fuerte
    Fei Long
    Guile
    Hakan
    Juri
    Oni
    Rufus
    Zangief
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71

    All jump ins were tested such that:

    - They hit Makoto while crouching if she just hold down-back. Some jump-ins can't hit a crouching opponent, and c.MK always beats them.
    - The jump-in was active as much as possible while still being able to hit Makoto crouching. This was to ensure the move wasn't hit out of its start-up.
    - The jump-in and AA were attempted to interact with other each as much as possible within reason. This wasn't applicable for some moves.
    - Jump-ins were aimed a tiny bit in front of Makoto, with many strong jump-ins tested at multiple ranges.
    - The training room is a controlled environment with no lag and pre-ordained knowing when and where the jump-in would occur. Thus, in a real match, the same distance with the same jump-in and the same AA might not always work due to timing and lag.
    - The tests are prone to error.

    The goal of these tests was to find out how to AA any specific character in general, and how to deal with "problem" jump-ins. To that end, I selected c.MK as the end-point in most occasions, since it's the easiest to time, leads into a decent mix-up, does okay damage, and can be done from the down-back position. While s.LP may lead into the best mix-up, and LP Fukiage may lead into the most damage and a tricky reset, these aren't always viable.

    One final note: virtually every jump-in loses to Fukiage or early jump back HP.
    j.LP: Beats Makoto's normals, use early c.HK or Fukiage
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: Trades with or beats Makoto's normals in Ryu's favor, use early c.HK or Fukiage.
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Aerial Tatsu: c.MK

    Prognosis: LP Fukiage is your best bet in this match-up, due to j.HP. Ryu's arc is perfect for the timing required.
    j.LP: Trades with AAs at max range
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: Trades with or beats Makoto's normals in Ken's favor at max range
    j.LK: Beats Makoto's normals up close
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Aerial Tatsu: c.MK

    Prognosis: c.MK generally works. Fukiage is the only real answer to far j.HP aside from beating him on start-up
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.HK if early enough, otherwise you NEED to Fukiage.
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Butt Slam: c.MK

    Prognosis: j.MP is too beastly. Since it's his main jump-in, you've got to be ready with a Fukiage.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: Trades with c.MK, but a good trade for Makoto
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Kunai: s.MP/f+MP
    Overhead special: Fukiage

    Prognosis: Watch out for super jumps to alter timing. Otherwise, generally easy to AA.
    j.LP: Able to beat out non-c.MK AAs.
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Tsurugi: c.MK and s.MP work well as long as you're not at max range and the Tsurugi isn't fully extended.

    Prognosis: Very easy to AA with moves aside from c.MK.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK

    Prognosis: Once his j.HK was a very powerful tool, but now that c.MK beats it, his ability to get in by a surprise jump-in is good.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Dive Kick: Fukiage only
    Toe Taps: c.MK

    Prognosis: While it's annoying that his dive kick can only beaten by our DP, there's a flip side: 328 damage from a full Fukiage combo is a little more than 40% of Seth's health.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Demon Flip kick: Fukiage only if aimed right.
    Dive Kick: c.MK

    Prognosis: c.MK is very easy to use against Gouken. Try to punish any EX Demon Flips on wake-up with Fukiage, and try not to let him randomly Demon Flip otherwise.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Demon Flip kick: Fukiage only
    Demon Flip palm: c.MK
    Demon Flip throw: c.MK
    Dive Kick: Fukiage only

    Prognosis: Like Seth, be ready to punish any Demon Flips or dive kicks used to initiate pressure during footsies for massive damage. Otherwise his jump-ins lose easy to c.MK.
    (Both stances)
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK. Be ready to AA Crane j.MK with Fukiage, as Gens like to jump at mid-range with its deceptive range and incredible cross-up hit-box.
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Oga wall dive: Very early Fukiage only
    Oga ceiling dive: Fukiage only. This can be exceedingly tricky due to cross-up timing screwing up inputs, plus an amazing hit-box - the key is to Fukiage immediately after he starts falling. 3131+LP can help ensure a Fukiage comes out instead of an Oroshi.

    Prognosis: His Oga is very hard to stop due to varying timing an a lack of normals to AA. Not only that, he has two jumping arcs to contend with due to stance changes. The main thing to look out for are mid-screen Crane j.MKs; Fukiage is the only consistent answer.
    j.LP: Fukiage only
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Aerial LK Danku: Fukiage or late c.MK

    Prognosis: While his prime jump-ins don't have good priority, Dan can get through even characters like Dhalsim by using mid-height LK Danku to stutter in air and beat a whiffed AA. Fukiage is prime for dealing with this, luckily, due to its high, vertical hit-box.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: Trades with or beats Makoto's normals depending on distance. The closer Sakura is, the less likely a trade will occur.
    Special moves:
    Aerial Tatsu: Fukiage or late c.MK

    Prognosis: Due to her aerial Tatsu and her very potent j.HK, try your best to Fukiage her. You can't let her in for free, she'll destroy Makoto once she gains momentum.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: Fukiage only
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Ground Pound: Fukiage. Try not do it early.

    Prognosis: Generally easy to c.MK all of his jump-ins. Try not to Fukiage as much as you can, as he can air dash to screw with it.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Dive Kick: Anything

    Prognosis: Yun has an extremely scary mid-range jumping game, involving empty jumps into throw-invincible EX command grab or c.LK hit-confirm, 3 different dive kicks, a jumping attack, or fake neutral jump into s.MP punishes/pressure.

    To stop his dive kicks, which are his main tool, you can use anything with a hit-box, really. Some great tools are:

    s.LP on reaction into dash under
    s.LK, s.MK TC
    Preemptive s.MP
    Preemptive s.HK
    Jump back HP to avoid all mix-ups
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Dive Kick: Due to the varying timings and arcs, it can be difficult to properly AA. All versions are unsafe on block, and only EX Dive Kick leads into real damage on hit. However, to AA, generally c.HK works, as well as HP Fukiage and late c.MK.

    Prognosis: Watch out for her dive kicks mainly. Typically those will be done while you're cornered or after a jump back by scrubs. Her jumping game is lacking beyond that.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Hozanshu: up close, s.MP and s.MK win. From afar, c.HK and c.MK win. If the Chun-Li predictably does the string s.MP xx MK Hozanshu, you can reversal MP Fukiage for max punishment.
    EX Hozanshu: s.MP and c.HK only.

    Prognosis: Her floaty jump and chunky hit-box lend well to Fukiages and c.HKs. Hozanshu is the only threat, and generally s.MP can beat it easily.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Dive Kick: Fukiage only
    Toe Taps: c.MK

    Prognosis: While it's annoying that his dive kick can only beaten by our DP, there's a flip side: 328 damage from a full Fukiage combo is a little more than 40% of Seth's health.
    j.HP: Distance dependent, s.MP generally wins, sometimes j.HP is too high and Fukiage is needed.
    Special moves:
    Drill: Fukiage only, if space properly
    Mummy: c.MK

    Prognosis: It's interesting that his drill can be spaced that it's exceptionally hard to AA. Generally you only have to worry about two jumps in this match-up: j.HP, and IA Teleport to mix up. Jump back HP can not only be stopped, but it's a free U2 ... on hit! IA Teleport depends on the situation, but generally if you're able to AA, use s.LP if he's near into mix-up, or Fukiage for max damage, especially if he's been teleporting higher.
    j.LP: c.MK, but a decent jump-in otherwise.
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Wheel Kick: Fukiage wins, others trade. Block and punish with s.MK for the most consistent results.

    Prognosis: In terms of jump-ins, Abel is extremely easy to AA. You can generally pick your preferred AA, like s.LP or s.MP, and just go with it.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK, but very rarely j.HK will win.
    Special moves:
    Burn Kick: c.MK, Fukiage, FA
    U2: Can trade heavily in Makoto's favor with virtually any AA. Don't worry about someone potentially screwing with your AAs with this.

    Prognosis: Burn Kick mix-ups can be stopped with Fukiage, and c.MK beats any jump-in. Watch out for super jumps.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Stomp: Fukiage only
    Devil's Reversal: HP Fukiage or FA

    Prognosis: Bison's high jumping arc is perfect for Fukiages on reaction. If you can't do that, at least c.MK them and dash under to hopefully break his charge before he gets his reversal off.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK, can trade occasionally.
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Tiger Knee: c.MK

    Prognosis: Pretty much not allowed to jump unless it's unexpected.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Cannon Strike: FA, s.MP, or c.MK, depending on timing s.MP can be easier
    EX Cannon Strike: Fukiage only most times, but late s.MP can work. FA of course works.

    Prognosis: Generally a bitch to AA purely because of her Cannon Strike. A well timed HP Fukiage can be the only consistent way of AAing her, but that requires a lot of prediction and reflex online.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    2+LK: c.MK

    Prognosis: Very easy to AA in general, except his 2+LK move can make your timing screwy. Fukiage works well, but it's very hard to AA his kick in air. Stick to c.MK and he won't be able to jump at all unless he knocks you down.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK loses at max range, use s.MP
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK trades up close only
    Special moves:

    Prognosis: Easier in AE, his j.HK isn't so potent compared to the new c.MK. The knife adds nothing to his jumping game against c.MK.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Bunshin Flip: c.MK
    Elbow: c.MK

    Prognosis: c.MK does destroy his jumping game, but his arc is so high it's very easy to Fukiage Guy. In fact, you can Fukiage on reaction almost every time, except to stringed Bunshin Flips into elbow, on which case your best bet is c.MK.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Oil Dive: Anything that doesn't stand Makoto up

    Prognosis: He can't jump at her. Tip: if Hakan tries to meaty Oil Dive you to catch the standing frame, you can MP Fukiage out of it.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Dive Kick: Anything

    Prognosis: Yang has an extremely scary mid-range jumping game, involving empty jumps into throw-invincible EX command grab or c.LK hit-confirm, 3 different dive kicks, a jumping attack, or fake neutral jump into c.MK punishes/Rekka pressure.

    To stop his dive kicks, which are his main tool, you can use anything with a hit-box, really. Some great tools are:

    s.LP on reaction into dash under
    s.LK, s.MK TC
    Preemptive s.MP
    Preemptive s.HK
    Jump back HP to avoid all mix-ups
    j.LP: Fukiage only
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Dive Kick: Delayed c.MK

    Prognosis: Nothing too special. The dive kick is Fukiage bait, but it's not needed due to a crappy hit-box.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:

    Prognosis: Nothing notable.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Rainbow Ball: FA, Fukiage

    Prognosis: While it may seem like it should be easy to AA him, his attacks are fast and his jump arc is smaller/shorter than most. AAing him in general online can be trying.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    2+LK: c.MK trades except at max range, use s.MP to counter this move
    2+HP: c.MK

    Prognosis: c.MK generally owns his jump-ins, which is good, because you do not want this guy close. Try to stick with c.MK unless you're confident in your Fukiage ability ... you do NOT want to risk letting this guy knock you down.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Dive Kick: c.MK, s.MK

    Prognosis: c.MK and s.MK own his air for free. Rufus has a rough time just jumping in at Makoto, unlike certain characters like Cammy and Yun.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK can lose, occasionally.
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Tostada Press: Delayed c.MK
    Fajita Buster: c.MK

    Prognosis: He has a high jumping arc, and Fukiage beats both of his jumping specials, so considering trying your best to Fukiage Elf.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Flying Barcelona Attack: Fukiage, late jump back MP/HP, FA
    Sky High Claw: c.MK

    Prognosis: j.HP used to cause Makoto a lot of grief. Not anymore, with good timing of c.MK. The FBA can screw with Fukiage's inputs, try 3131+LP to AA it as consistently as possible.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK loses/trade at max range. Fukiage only at this range.
    Special moves:

    Prognosis: j.HK can be very annoying to counter at its max range. Try as best you can to resist c.MKing it and instead opting for Fukiage or blocking.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Chicken Wing: Very distance dependent. At max range, s.MP and s.MK almost always win. If you get s.MK out in time before it encounters CW, it will almost always win. LP Fukiage is by far the easiest and best counter if you're waiting for the CW ... the timing is very natural.

    Prognosis: Countering jump-ins is far from what you have to worry about in this match-up. Be ready with s.MK and Fukiage for CW, and c.MK for jump-ins, and you'll be set.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK loses, Fukiage only or stop him from getting close enough in the arc to j.MP!
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Condor Dive: s.MP and c.HK. c.MK is harder due to its start-up and small hit-box compared to others.

    Prognosis: A bastard in the jumping department. Blocking Condor Dive is beneficial, as it's a free U2 or Yamase or f+MK TC, but letting him jump in for free is NOT beneficial. Get your jump back HP and HP Fukiage ready.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Flying Barcelona Attack: Fukiage, late jump back MP/HP, FA
    Sky High Claw: c.MK

    Prognosis: j.HP used to cause Makoto a lot of grief. Not anymore, with good timing of c.MK. The FBA can screw with Fukiage's inputs, try 3131+LP to AA it as consistently as possible.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:
    Jaguar Tooth: c.HK and LP Fukiage
    LK and MK Jaguar Kick: s.MP and s.MK at max range.
    HK Jaguar Kick: Fukiage only, others trade.
    Aerial Jaguar Kick: s.MP, s.MK

    Prognosis: His Jaguar Kick is potent, and requires the right tool for the job. Generally you'll be using s.MP and s.MK to counter poke Jaguar Kicks, and try to read a HK Jaguar Kick. Adon's standard jump-in is slightly faster than normal, so watch out not to give a free CH combo.
    j.LP: c.MK
    j.MP: c.MK
    j.HP: c.MK, everything else loses
    j.LK: c.MK
    j.MK: c.MK
    j.HK: c.MK
    Special moves:

    Prognosis: Her best jump-in, j.HP, gets neutralized, which is fortunate because it would beat most of our other options handily.
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71

    Courtesy of farplaner, V-Ryu, and Robot Makoto:

    After back throw:
    Dash, neutral jump HK 4 frame safe jump
    Dash, c.HK whiff, perfectly meaty s.MP
    Dash, s.LP whiff, perfectly meaty MP Oroshi
    Forward jump attack whiff, perfectly meaty c.MK
    Dash, f+MK whiff, as perfectly meaty LK Karakusa as possible.
    Backthrow into corner, dash, s.LP whiff, MK Tsurugi
    Instant overhead vs big character (gief, seth, etc): backthrow -> backdash -> dash -> backjump HP


    After c.HP:
    - Dash -> perfectly meaty HP Oroshi
    - Back dash -> meaty EX Hayate. You're close enough to OS things after it in case of back dash (even U1 on some characters). Also, you can hit-confirm with another EX hayate for a 2 hit combo.
    - Dash -> s.MP whiff -> perfectly meaty s.MP
    - Empty forward jump -> meaty c.LK or c.LP
    - f+MP whiff -> s.MP whiff -> perfectly meaty c.LK or c.LP
    - f+MK whiff -> perfectly meaty c.MK
    - Dash X 2 -> meaty s.HK
    - Dash -> c.LK whiff -> perfectly meaty s.HK
    - Dash -> c.MP whiff -> perfectly meaty LK Karakusa
    - Empty forward jump -> meaty LK Karakusa
    - Forward jump attack whiff -> meaty back throw

    After EX Oroshi:
    - Dash -> throw whiff -> perfectly meaty MP Oroshi
    - Empty jump -> meaty MP Oroshi
    - Dash -> empty neutral jump -> perfectly meaty s.MP
    - Empty jump -> c.MK whiff -> perfectly meaty c.LK or c.LP
    - Forward jump attack whiff -> s.LP whiff -> perfectly meaty c.MK
    - Empty jump -> s.LP whiff -> perfectly meaty s.HK
    - Dash -> s.LP whiff -> neutral jump MK (4 frame safe jump)
    - s.HK whiff -> neutral jump MK (3 frame safe jump due to distance)
    - Dash -> neutral jump attack whiff -> perfectly meaty HK Karakusa after landing
    - Dash X 3 -> s.LK whiff -> HK Karakusa

    After U1:
    - Dash X 2 -> c.HK whiff -> perfectly meaty MP Oroshi
    - Jumping attack whiff -> dash -> perfectly meaty HP Oroshi
    - Dash X 2 -> LP Fukiage whiff -> perfectly meaty s.MP
    - Empty jump X 2 -> perfectly meaty c.LK or c.LP
    - Jumping attack whiff -> f+MK whiff -> perfectly meaty c.MK
    - Empty jump -> f+MK whiff -> perfectly meaty s.HK
    - Dash -> f+MK whiff -> neutral j.MK (4 frame safe jump)
    - MP Fukiage whiff -> j.MK (4 frame safe jump)
    - Empty jump -> empty jump -> meaty LK Karakusa

    After HP Oroshi:
    - Jump attack whiff -> perfectly meaty HP Oroshi
    - Dash -> jump attack whiff -> meaty s.HK
    - f+MK whiff -> neutral jump MK (4 frame safe jump)
    - Backdash -> empty jump -> meaty LK Karakusa

    After EX Hayate quick rise:
    - Dash X 2 -> meaty s.HK
    - Dash -> j.MK
    - Dash X 2 -> MK Tsurugi
    - (In corner) c.LK whiff -> MK Tsurugi
    - (In corner) Neutral jump MK (4 frame safe jump)

    After LP Fukiage quick rise in the corner:
    - Let opponent land -> meaty MP Oroshi
    - Backdash -> meaty HP Hayate
    - Almost let opponent land -> f+HK hold -> meaty s.HK
    - Jump cancel empty jump -> j.MK or j.HP (character specific, crosses up or doesn't cross up based on timing) (reversal safe)
    - (not jump canceled) Neutral jump whiff attack -> perfectly meaty LK Karakusa

    After f+HK:
    - Dash -> meaty HP Oroshi (will miss with perfect timing)
    - f+MK -> meaty s.HK
    - Empty jump -> meaty LK Karakusa

    Notes: Perfectly meaty frame advantage on block and on hit, in that order:
    c.LK = +3, +6
    c.MK = +5, +8
    s.MP = +8, +11
    s.HK = +5, +9
    MP Oroshi = 0, +10
    HP Oroshi = 0, UTKD.

    Most setups fail against Blanka, Sagat, and Cammy. For back throw, setups won't work on Adon, Blanka, Dhalsim, Claw, and Sagat.
    How to calculate Meaty Attacks

    Ok, many of you ask all the time how to calculate meaty attacks. Well, it will be explained here. But please be forewarned! This is an arduous task and includes a lot of math! Seriously, this is some advanced shit! Not for the feint of heart! So if you want exact values and have good execution to test these, then read on. If you just want some quick answers see above

    Here we go.

    The first thing we will need is the wakup values from untechable knockdowns. Farplaner was kind, generous, and thoughtful enough to translate the Japanese figures for us. May he live a long and prosperous life!!!

    After backthrow:
    59F: Adon
    60F: Others
    61F: Blanka, Dhalsim, Claw, Sagat
    65F: Hakan

    After d.HP:
    45F: Others
    46F: Sagat, Cammy
    47F: Blanka

    After EX oroshi:
    68F: Others
    69F: Sagat, Cammy
    70F: Blanka

    After U1:
    89F: Others
    90F: Sagat, Cammy
    91F: Blanka

    After F.HK:
    46F: Others
    47F: Sagat, Cammy
    48F: Blanka

    After HP oroshi:
    73F: Others
    74F: Sagat, Cammy
    75F: Blanka

    =====
    Note: Compare it to their general wake up frame data: (combine it with above data to make your conclusion)

    http://www20.atwiki.jp/ssf4/pages/1121.html#id_1c623b12

    It states:
    Face Down:
    33F (+2F): Blanka, Yang (2F invincible bug)
    32F (+1F): Sagat, Cammy, "Neutral stick" Gen (with 1F invincible bug)
    31F (+0F): Others

    Face Up:
    20F Adon (1F invincible bug)
    21F Others, "Neutral stick" Gen (with 1F invincible bug), "Neutral stick" Yang (with 18F invincible bug)
    22F Blanka, Dhalsim, Claw, Sagat
    26F Hakan

    Introduction
    Ok in order to get us started, we will explain exactly what a meaty attack is and why we use them. To understand this you must know the frame data for whatever move you are trying to make into a Meaty. So lets do s.
    Framedata
    Startup-8 Frames
    Active-8 Frames
    Recovery-12 Frames
    Stun Duration (on hit)-21 Frames
    Advantage on Hit-(+2)

    We are concerned with 2 things here:
    1-Startup+Active frames, and
    2-Advantage on Hit from the Stun Duration

    So for 1-we need to know this information for later. This is important when calculating the meaty. We actually dont' need the recovery frames at all.

    For 2-how the advantage on hit is calculated is important. If you just walk up to a non blocking character and use s. , we have:

    S-8 Frames. During this time the move has not started hitting yet.
    A-8 Frames. if the opponent touches your hitbox at any point during this time, they will take damage.
    R-12 Frames-This is the time it takes for Makoto to reset back to the starting position. She can do nothing during this time. (there are exceptions)

    Since we just walked up to the oponent and attacked, s. hits on the first active frame. This leaves the remaining active frames and the recovery frames. This is how long it takes for her to recover. So:

    A=8 Frames. But since we hit on frame 1, we only count the other 7 as part of the recovery.
    R=12 Frames. This plus the rest of the active frames... Lets call this "True Recovery."

    So the True Recovery is 19 Frames.

    The advantage on hit is calculated by taking the hit stun duration, and subtracting the True Recovery. So:

    Hit stun duration=21 Frames
    True Recover=19 frames
    21-19=2 frames. The number is positive

    So this leaves us at +2 Frame Advantage on Hit. This basically means that we can combo this into any move that starts up in 2 frames.

    The problem is, Makoto doesn't have any moves that start up in 2 frames. Wouldn't it be nice if we could shave some time off to create more Frame Advantage???

    We can, and we will. Read on to the next section to find out how...

    Meaty Attack
    In the last section, we learned that s. has 8 active frames and recovers in 12. Currently is it +2 on Hit. We learned how to calculate that.

    Now for the wrench... What do you think would happen, if we hit with a later active frame? Say frame 2 or frame 6?

    If you said that we would be even more positive on hit, you would be correct! So since we are hitting with a later frame, and the frame advange is going up, we can combo the s. into moves that normally woudlnt' combo! Here's an example

    If I use a meaty s. , and say, hit on the 4th Active frame, That adds 3 frames to my Frame advantage. If I hit on the 6th active frame, that would add 5 frames to my advantage.

    So instead of being +2 I would be +5 or +8! Makoto doesn't have any moves that hit in 2 frames, but she has A LOT that can land in 5 or 8!

    So say we land a meaty s. in the corner, we can go into s. , EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi for some killer Damage and Stun!

    There are many uses for meaty setups, and we will get to them... after we learn how to calculate them!

    Formulas Needed
    Ok we will create a formula to calculate meaties. This will make things a little easier, but not a whole lot. This is the easy part. But we will get to the hard part.

    So lets define some values
    Meaty Attack=M
    Startup = S
    Active = A
    Recovery = R
    Wakup Time = X
    Whiffed frames = W

    In order to calculate a meaty attack, we need to combine these properly. The correct way to do it, is to make sure that your meaty attack+your whiffed moves =the wakeup time or X. So:

    X=M+W

    Sounds simple right? Not so. We must first calculate M and W before we can solve this. So, to calculate M:

    M=S+A

    Your Meaty attack will be hitting on the last possible active frame, so we count them all.

    W=(S1+A1+R1)+(S2+A2+R2)+etc.etc.

    In each parenthesis, you insert the data of the whiffed moves you are calculating. So S1, A1, and R1 are the Start up, active, and recovery frames of any normal. S2, A2, and R2 are the frames for the second normal. Etc. Etc.

    Since we already know the wakup frames for everyone, we already have X. The key here is to manipulate W so that when we add it to M, it = X. Confused yet? Check out the next section for examples:

    Time to Calculate!
    Ok so lets say I want to create a meaty st. MP after a back throw. So:

    S.mp-
    Startup-5f
    Active-7f

    Wakup frames from back throw -60

    So going back to our original formula:

    X=M+W

    But since W is the unknown, we need to do a little math:

    X-M=W

    We already know that X (wake up frames) is 60f, and that our meaty attack needs to hit on frame 12 (at the end of the active frames). so

    60-12=W

    W=48.

    So we just need to whiff moves that add up to 48 so we can plug it into our system. Now, since I did a little research before hand I know that:

    s.
    S=4f
    A=4f
    R=5f

    s.
    S=5f
    A=7f
    R=7f

    Dash=16 Frame duration

    And from earlier, our equation for W is

    W=(move 1)+(move2)+(move 3)

    W=(Dash)+(s. )+(s.:mp)

    W=(Duration of Dash)+(S2+A2+R2)+(S3+A3+R3)

    W=(16f)+(4f+4f+5f)+(5f+7f+7f)

    W=(16f)+(13f)+(19f)

    W=48f(!)

    So it matches! here we take our equation and plug everything in to check:

    X=M+W

    60f=12f+48f

    60f=60f

    SO to create our meaty, all we need to do is:

    1.Land a back throw
    2. Dash
    3.s. (whiff)
    4s. (whiff)
    5s. (MEATY)

    Here, s. will hit on the last frame, allowing you to chain attacks that should not normallly attack. Since we are attacking on the last frame of s. (frame 7), then it recovers 6 frames faster than it normally would! This means that you can connect attacks that normally would not connect during normal s. !
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Makoto can safe jump off of virtually any untechable knockdown. Her safe jump game is deadlier than many characters' because of the simple fact that it is an essentially free meaty for a character who has combos and mix-ups when up close worth 400 damage or more based on meter. Being up close like this, at worst, forces your opponent to waste 2 bars to be safe or just in general force your opponent into frame disadvantage against Makoto; at best, it leads into an Ultra or free combo.

    How to safe jump 4+ frame moves:
    EX Oroshi, dash forward, s.LP whiff, neutral jump HK.
    EX Oroshi, s.HK whiff, neutral jump MK against SRK type moves.
    Backthrow, forward dash, neutral jump HK.
    Ultra 1, dash, f+MK whiff, neutral jump HK.
    c.HP, wait 5 frames, j.HP.
    HP Oroshi, f+MK whiff, neutral jump HK.

    Most setups fail against Blanka, Sagat, and Cammy. For back throw, setups won't work on Adon, Blanka, Dhalsim, Claw, and Sagat.
    Against these characters, safe jumps are always safe:

    Ibuki
    Gen
    Dan
    Sakura
    Yun
    C. Viper
    M. Bison
    Dee Jay
    Cody
    Yang
    Blanka
    Rufus
    El Fuerte
    Vega
    Adon
    Rose

    This list isn't long, but that's partially because there are certain Ultras, Supers, and metered options to mess with safe jumps from other characters, which fortunately aren't always available.
    Against these characters, traditional safe jumps don't work:

    Ryu
    Ken
    E. Honda with U2
    Ibuki with U1
    Makoto with 1 bar
    Dudley with Super
    Seth with 1 bar
    Gouken
    Akuma
    Oni
    Juri
    Chun-Li with Super
    Dhalsim with U1
    Abel with 1 bar
    Sagat with Super
    Cammy with U2
    Guy with U2
    Hakan with 1 bar, U1, or U2
    Evil Ryu
    Guile with Super
    Zangief with 1 bar or U1
    Balrog with U2
    Fei Long with U2
    T. Hawk with 1 bar or U1

    While this list seems long, many characters won't have the Super or the specific Ultra needed to mess with a safe jump. Any character with a 3 frame SRK or armored move can be empty jumped against safely. In fact, only some grapplers with EX and grapple Ultras and those with 1 frame Supers can punish an empty jump. Safe jumping works quite well against most characters, you just have to make a read on if the opponent will reversal or not (like any meaty) - it's why in top level play, SRK users generally don't reversal against safe jumps. Dhalsim will generally not use U1 against safe jumps in high level play. Knowing these things, you can come to a conclusion on when it's wise to safe jump an opponent.

    Ultimately, there is a counter for 99% of what an opponent can do while safe jumping, it merely requires the right read on an opponent's habits ... and to an extent, their level of play.
    - Safe jump HK OS c.HP/c.HK: The standard option, this is your go to option in terms of safety and versatility. Scrubs and those who don't recognize a safe jump for what it is will reversal here often; higher level players will instantly recognize a setup for what it is, in which case other alternatives may be appropriate.

    If your opponent blocks this too often, consider going into naked Karakusa, s.LK xx HK Karakusa, or Tsurugi after the blocked j.HK. Otherwise you've got your pick of mix-ups, go nuts! You have frame advantage!

    Beats backdashing, jumping, slow reversals, and gives frame advantage against blocking. Loses to FA backdash, fast reversals, and invincible fast throws.

    - Late MK Tsurugi: A very tricky option, and potentially VERY damaging. The gap of time between the time of your jump and supposed landing time creates an illusion of an empty jump, upon which many opponents will throw or crouch tech prematurely. This is best used against opponents who see a safe jump and understand it immediately. However, always look for smart players with an FADC'able reversal and the meter to back it up!

    Beats bad backdashes, jumping, crouch techs, throws, and invincible throws. Neutral/loses to blocking, depending on the opponent's character, though there are Tsurugi mix-ups aplenty. Loses to FA, FA backdash, and reversals.

    - Empty jump, IA Tsurugi: The difference between this and a late Tsurugi is that it targets different timings of throw/crouch tech. Generally one or the other will catch an opponent doing either, it just depends on the opponent's habits.

    Beats late crouch teching and late throws. Loses to fast invincible throws, reversals, FA, FA backdash, and well-timed normals/crouch techs/throws.

    - Empty jump, delayed back throw: Mainly useful to avoid SRK and to beat out armor/counter moves, like against Gouken, Juri, and Cammy and Fei Long's U2. This is also good for understanding an opponent's habits, because if they tech a throw it's most likely due to throwing an empty jump or late crouch teching, both of which you can counter.

    Beats most reversals if done late enough, block, and FA backdash. Neutral with crouch teching, throwing, jumping, and backdashing. Loses to invincible throws and slow reversals.

    - Empty jump, EX Karakusa: The more aggressive and risky way to throw an opponent's habits. Very potent, but it loses to much more than back throw. Mainly good to target an opponent who is committed to blocking and crouch teching, as per the standard, but also a great way to target a FAer! However, empty jumps are often met with throws, so this one is quite risky in general.

    Beats FA, FA backdash, armored reversals, crouch teching, and blocking. Loses to all throws, reversals, backdashing, and jumping.

    - Empty jump, late plink throw+LK Karakusa: A very interesting OS. You can block reversals, tech throws, and grab blockers, but in all likelihood you'll just tech a throw :(

    So there you have it. With these options, you should have an answer to an opponent's every move off of a safe jump; the onus is on you, the player, to make the right read and either let your opponent kill himself via bad habits or punish your opponent for having good habits.
    Here some ideas i had following vryus fuki-kara OS, but not sure if the first one is practical or not:
    Post hayate, dash, ultra-fuki buffer [candeisis]
    -input: after hp/mp/lp hayate (on hit) dash, buffer qcf, qcf, db (hold) + 3p/mp/hp
    Buffer quickly and try confirm if they back dash press 3p, otherwise if they jump press hp/mp to fukiage.
    - effect: if back dash ultra 1 recovery backdash, if jump fukiage is buffered and only have to react with single button press. Technically not an OS, it?s a buffer of two simultaneous moves and react.
    -Char specifics:
    Post hp hayate works on: everyone but fuerte (back dash recovers and can block) with exceptions in chun, rose & claw (only after mp hayate since ultra doesn?t reach & must come out first frame), blanka (use lp hayate to set this up for him, as u1 doesn?t reach post mp or hp hayate) and 2/3 of the cast wont cross under their neutral jump post hp hayate:
    Post hp hayate non cross under exceptions: chars that you don?t cross under after dash;.guy, honda, ibuki, makoto, dudley, seth, akuma, dan, sakura, juri, abel, viper, dictator, sagat, cammy, dee jay, hakan, zangief, fuerte, t hawk, adon and rose. This means to fukiage need to go to DF rather than DB.
    Mid Screen Jump back post hp hayate: most chars cannot be reached by hp fukiage can react and use kara hp or ex fukiage (if quick enough), cr hk or one hit f + fp.
    -Chars hp fukiage will reach jump back post hp hayate, dash (ie don?t need to kara fukiage); Dudley, Viper, Guile, Blanka, Claw, Fei (hp fukiage can hit but only if comes out straight after dash), Boxer (mp fukiage hits both neutral and back jump), Zangief (hp fukiage hits neutral and back jump), Hakan (hp fukiage hits neutral and back jump), T hawk (hp fukiage hits neutral jump, kara hp fukiage hits back jump).
    -Chars kara fukiage + cr hk doesn?t reach: Guy, Fuerte & Ibuki only f+fp reaches
    -Unwanted Kara-Super Note: if have super and try to kara fukiage after buffering ultra will get kara super, in that case use f + fp to punish jump back.
    -post mp hayate works on: same as hp hayate except everyone crossed under, apply fukiage specifics detailed in ?kari-fuki OS? above.
    -post lp hayate works on: same as hp hayate except for 22f or quicker backdash chars whos back dash will recover in time to block. Ie chun, rose, cammy, claw & fuerte (19f)
    Corner note: still works buffer qcf, qcf but if jumps go to df + p for fukiage

    Corner post hp hayate, dash, karakusa-oroshi buffer trap [candeisis]
    -input: Buffer late in dash (to avoid cossing under during buffer) and confirm button press lp/hp/lp+mp oroshi OR lk/mk/ex karakusa (range dependant)
    Confirm into lp/hp/ex oroshi or lk/ex karakusa (depending on spacing, ex might not reach at further distances)
    -effect If they jump up or back oroshi hits them and is virtually inescapable, if they back dash virtually inescapable karakusa grabs them. If opponent in range to land on orshi cant escape ex oroshi, however some chars with quicker jumps can empty jump and block lp ososhi in time, but not if they do a normal in the air which they will usually do. Could also swing stick to df and lp/mp fukiage if react quick enough.
    -works on: everyone but dhalsim basically, note wall jump chars can escape if wall jump out; chun, fuerte, seth, guy, claw
    If opponent jumps back or up lp oroshi virtually inescapable: only some chars have specific ways to avoid oroshi eg makoto can jump back hp, but there aren?t many. Use ex oroshi is you want to be certain cause its 4f faster startup.
    -char specifics: with ?higher? jumps use hp oroshi, as 2f slower startup but longer vertical hitbox than lp and mp oroshi. Use hp oroshi for; chun, guy, dictator, rose, zangief, ibuki, t hawk (delay hp oroshi 1 or 2 frames post dash for hawk)

    Ive been compiling all relevant char specific stuff for makoto in one easy to read document, and will be releasing soon so dont fret!
    Just posting this here from another thread for clarity's sake;Vryu fake cross setup in the corner (my testing):
    -input: -ex oroshi: dash -> st lk (whiff) -> pause 1-2 f -> jump f hp/mk
    -hp oroshi: f+hp (whiff) -> jump f hp/mk
    -effect: jump f hp doesn?t cross up (fakes cross) and keeps them in corner whilst jump mk crosses up.
    -works on: Dudley & gouken & guile (if blocks cross will still hit and you land cross, must block non cross), fei long, seth & juri & t hawk (always end in corner but must block it non cross or hit), abel, viper & hakan & zangief & fuerte & cammy* (if blocks towards corner blocks and you end up in corner), dictator, Dee jay (will whiff if blocks towards corner note), rufus, claw (not really 50/50 as blocked like jump mk and puts in corner?)
    *Cammy wakes up 1f later so delay jump 1f
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    ok. here is some informations about Meaty MP oroshi for massive stun.

    1) if opponent gets hit crouched
    - -> st.MP/crMP -> EX oroshi
    (note: some characters (ibuki for example) are too far for st.MP and/or EX oroshi. Just adapt with cr.MP and/or EX hayate)
    460 stun

    2) if opponent gets hit stand, or armor break
    - -> st.HP -> EX oroshi
    560 stun (610 if armor break)

    note that an armored breaking meaty oroshi will force opponent to be stand (and is a counter hit)
    1- work the execution. She's hard, and precise, and full of character specific stuff you've got to know

    2- learn to get good reads. You can start by focusing your mind on a precise type of event and see how your opponent react.
    for exemple: do a j.hp, 2lp then stop and block... what's his next move?
    - if he's mashing jab/crouch tech, then next time repeat the situation but after 2lp do a frame trap (see number 1) to beat that jab/crouch tech,
    - if he's throwing, then next time IAT tsurugi + combo (see number 1)
    - if he's crouch blocking, karakusa + combo/mixup (see number 1)
    - etc...
    Once you're used to do that reading stuff, you can check what's his reaction after a blocked focus lvl 2 or after a soft landing or on wake up or after a blocked tsurugi or after a hayate mp on hit, etc.
    If you know what he's gonna do for sure on THAT situation, you can work on setting up THAT situation for (almost) garanteed damage. Your offense is based on the accuracy of your reads + your execution.

    3- learn to lvl up your defense. Low block, high block, anti air, crouch tech, delayed crouch tech... you've got to be OK with all this (see number 1).

    4- don't take un-necessary risks.
    Meaty s.MP OS f+FP/s.MP on opponent's wakeup might be her best option in terms of damage and stun, and is pretty consistent across the board on a lot of characters. So far it works on everyone except the following characters in which you'd have to change it up a bit depending on who it is:

    - Ibuki - Apparently Ibuki's wake up time is a couple of frames longer than usual, meaning the normal timing for her meaty s.MP you usually use on everyone else will whiff unless you delay it a little bit.

    - Gen - The second s.MP after the meaty s.MP will whiff due to either his hitbox being thinner than usual, or increased pushback.

    - Dan - The f+FP will hit him in the air if he backdashed your meaty s.MP because he's still considered in an airborn state that late into his backdash, so don't mash the f+FP out.

    - Chun-Li - Bitch completely escapes the f+FP option select due to her backdash being fast and having little recovery. Gonna have to use a different s.MP meaty OS.

    - Sagat - Same scenario as Dan; his backdash is still considered in an airborn state pretty late into his backdash.

    - Cammy - Completely escapes the f+FP option select as well due to fast backdash with little recovery.

    - Makoto - Can backdash recovery cancel into guessing game. Otherwise, f+FP tags her if she doesn't cancel the recovery.

    - Cody - Can backdash recovery cancel into guessing game. Otherwise, f+FP tags him if he doesn't cancel the recovery.

    - Rufus - Airborn state late into backdash.

    - El Fuerte - Completely escapes f+FP option select due to fast backdash with little recovery.

    - Vega - Completely escapes f+FP option select due to fast backdash with little recovery.

    - Adon - Apparently Adon wakes up a couple of frames faster than normal, meaning your have to do your meaty earlier than usual. Also he completely escapes f+FP option select due to fast backdash with little recovery.

    - Rose - Completely escapes f+FP option select due to fast backdash with little recovery.

    TLDR version:

    - Delay the meaty s.MP on Ibuki, advance the meaty s.MP on Adon.

    - Characters considered airborn late into their backdash: Dan, Sagat, Rufus. The f+FP will only hit once.

    - Cody and Makoto can backdash cancel recovery for options against the OS.

    - Chun-Li, Cammy, El Fuerte, Vega, Adon, and Rose can backdash out of the f+FP option select for free.
    Legend
    OS sweep = cr.hp --- dash x2 --- cr.lp OS cr.HP
    OS f.MK= cr.hp --- dash x2 --- cr.lp OS f.MK

    notes: Use OS sweep to work on your oki. Use OS f.MK for hit confirm into HK (Target combo 2) for damage/stun of 190/300 or to work on mix-ups (like, instead of hit f.MK~HK, do f.MK into EX kara on mashers/blockers, or whatever). Mix-ups are inherently risky; still needs experimenting to see if useful during actual matches.

    Characters that get hit only by OS sweep
    Gouken
    Akuma
    Abel
    Bison/Dictator
    Fuerte
    Vega/Claw
    Adon

    Characters that get hit only by OS f.MK
    Ibuki
    Makoto
    Gen
    Dan
    Dhalsim
    C. Viper
    Deejay
    Guy
    Evil Ryu
    Fei

    Characters that get hit by both OS sweep and OS f.MK
    Ryu
    Ken
    Honda
    Sakura
    Oni
    Yun
    Juri
    Sagat
    Cody
    Hakan
    Yang
    Guile
    Blanka
    Zangief
    Rufus
    T. Hawk

    Characters that get hit by neither OS sweep nor OS f.MK
    Dudley
    Seth
    Chun
    Balrog/Boxer
    Rose

    Notes:
    For Dudley, Seth, and Boxer, I'd use OS f.MK. When f.MK comes out, it won't whiff (they'll have to block it). So you'll be in range to continue pressure. Chun Li and Rose-- with their godlike backdashes-- are completely out of range; the f.MK whiffs. So they can backdash again to safety. Back to square 1. (There has to be an ultra2 option select that could be useful against these chicks).
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Makoto's Mix-ups
    The Tsurugi is one of Makoto's most devastating tools.

    - It naturally beats most attacks if done above them, as well as beating throws due to it being part of a jump.
    - It's hard to counter unless the opponent reversals, does a standing quick attack or an attack with a good hit-box, or FAs.
    - It alone is a hit-confirm, meaning you can go into max damage straight away.

    You may be wondering, how do I land this attack? Should I jump in with this instead of j.HP/j.MK? No. You'll get anti-aired and FA anti-aired all day, and you lose all possible frame advantage on a blocked jumping attack. Essentially, you want to use them as quickly from the ground as possible. You don't need any fancy tricks to get a very low to the ground Tsurugi; 9214+Kick. If you're not getting it low enough, you need to practice more and speed up the motion.

    LK Tsurugi

    ... Sucks, but it has certain undeniable uses. The applications it has are:

    - It's your best meter building Tsurugi from a distance
    - Technically your best air-to-air normal Tsurugi due to its speed, but that's not saying much. Don't use it for such.
    - Able to quickly alter your arc, to bait out uppercuts. This is HUGE. MASSIVE. Not only will this add unpredictability to your ability to get in, it will mind-fuck your opponent and possibly allow legitimate jump-ins out of respect and fear for getting baited.
    - When unsure if an opponent will neutral jump or not while pressuring your opponent, this is an interesting option. While it's vastly inferior to MK Tsurugi in its arc and block/hit-advantage, it's much easier to AA after a whiffed one. This is useful in the corner.

    MK Tsurugi

    The MK version's essentially a dive kick with lots of frame advantage, so the best time to use it is when you're up close already, preferably with a buffer of at least +1 frame advantage. You can use a blocked s.MP, c.LP, s.LP, hit HP Hayate, hit MP Hayate, s.HP xx Hayate Cancel, or virtually anything with any frame advantage to help give you the time you need to get off the ground and start attacking. While you can certainly use MK Tsurugi after a hit HP Hayate, you have other options for that, and I recommend mainly using MK Tsurugi (of her multitude of options) after LP or MP Hayate. Other great times to use it are after a surprise forward dash, after a blocked FA1 or FA2, immediately after an empty jump, and to alter her neutral jump timings to mix up between a safe jump and a delayed attack.

    When you land the MK version low to the ground, Makoto is at roughly +11 frames. This means you can land the majority of her moves afterwards! Take note of the distance from your opponent when you land this, and do these follow-ups, in order of relevance from best to worst:

    U1, s.HP, s.MK, s.MP, c.MP, c.HP.

    The range itself goes like this, from shortest to longest:

    s.HP, U1, s.MP, s.MK (whiffs against crouchers at this distance), c.MP, c.HP.

    Thus, you have to prioritize distance to the opponent, then stay as close to the beginning of the first list. On hit, you have enough time to react to the hit then do an Ultra, if that says anything about how much hit-stun it has.

    On block, MK and HK Tsurugi are -1 at best. This means her mix-up potential is more limited than normal. You have to pay very strict attention to what your opponent does after a blocked Tsurugi, and try to catch their patterns. Your mix-ups include:

    - Backdash. This is one of her best options, though it does halt her momentum and put her back into a footsie war. Generally you can't be punished for this, and not only will this opportunity allow you to find out what your opponent likes doing, you can punish reversals at this range.
    - Another Tsurugi. This is her best offensive option if it's not countered, as it often hits crouch techers, throwers, and non-invincible reversals. It loses to some neutral jump attacks, FAs, standing attacks, and invincible reversals. Backdashes and jump backs escape. THIS TACTIC IS HIGHLY VULNERABLE TO s.LP SPAM! It is best used as range and not when up close.
    - j.MK to cross-up. This is a safer offensive option, really only losing to standing attacks and invincible reversals. Be ready to use j.HP to beat out jumps! However, her j.MK requires precise spacing, so you can't always use this option ...
    - EX Oroshi. Beats slower attacks, FA, and some reversals, and potentially lights, but loses to throws and it's bad on block. Good to use if your opponent like to use attacks like Guile's s.HP or Dudley's s.HP after a blocked Tsurugi.
    - Kara-EX Karakusa. Very good option to beat attacks, but loses to reversals of all sorts, neutral jumps, and throws.
    - FA. You can hold your FA to try to react to neutral jumps or go into FA2, or immediately do an FA1 to counter-hit the opponent's reprisal. Loses to reversals and throws, can lose to neutral jumps if the opponent reacts accordingly and you don't backdash.
    - s.MP/c.LK. A surprisingly effective tactic, because a lot of people do like to jump or may not time their reprisal as quickly as you.
    - Fukikusa (dash forward, 63214+HP+HK). Can beat neutral jumps, backdashes, and blocking. Very good if you get one of those reads.
    - Block. Sometimes backdashing is too risky or too predictable, and you might want to just take the -1 frame disadvantage and grit your teeth.

    One thing of which to be wary is that charge characters and Yun get pushed back an inordinate amount after a hit Tsurugi, especially while crouching. Be ready to substitute s.MP for s.HP unless you let them reel back, and be ready for what would normally be a hit U1 being a whiffed U1 into reversal Ultra by the opponent.

    HK Tsurugi

    This is one of Makoto's best mid-range pokes. It helps screw with an opponent's willingness to wait to anti-air you, it beats buffer pokes like most c.MKs, it does impressive chip damage (37 damage!), and it leaves you at a good position to try tactics at range, like a jump forward or another HK Tsurugi. The only extremely glaring weakness to this is it's focus bait, through and through; get too eager with this and you could be looking at a 250 damage counter-strike. Be careful, and always be ready to counter focus fishers with an empty jump into throw at HK Tsurugi range. This is your main tool to advance over fireballs.

    Note: it's acceptable to use this in place of MK Tsurugi when attacking low crouched hit-boxes that require extremely low to the ground MK Tsurugi and against charge characters.

    EX Tsurugi

    Primarily used for combos from Fukiage. It has some use as a mix-up from the ground via TK motion. It can beat anti-airs with good timing, and allow you to dodge certain moves by allowing you to float over them. It's invincible to projectiles, but you won't use it to actually go through any projectiles.

    Makoto's Karakusa is her main tool to use once her opponents stop pressing buttons or jumping or backdashing. Unfortunately, due to the slowness of her Karakusa, the mild range of even the HK version, and the inability to normally shield yourself from mashing/throwing with large frame advantage, it can be a hassle to land it without a knockdown or trickery. Luckily, there are many situations where you can invoke trickery and the fear of being attacked, and use setups to land this.

    Remember, backdashing, jumping, and invincible/throw-immune reversals will always beat a Karakusa. I'm sorry, that's just how it works in SSF4's defense-oriented engine. There's always an extra risk you're taking when you opt to use this compared to an attack, so be prepared for the inevitable read that your opponent makes when he neutral jumps your Karakusa and makes you eat an Ultra for your attempt.

    Landing the Karakusa

    In order of personal preference, I will now list her ways into Karakusa. The further down it is, the less I use the set-up, or I actively choose to attack far more than Karakusa. Her many ways into Karakusa are:

    - Blockakusa and Hitakusa (s.LK xx HK Karakusa). New to AE, Makoto can cancel the later frames of s.LK into HK Karakusa to tick throw into Karakusa. With good timing, this works on block and hit simultaneously. About the only time it fails is if you counter-hit the s.LK or your timing is off. It beats throws and normals, loses to everything a command throw loses to. HOT.

    There are many ways to set this up. You can turn j.HP or a meaty enough attack on wake-up into a stringed s.LK that can't be counter-hit, cutting out that element of guessing. You can do s.LK xx HK Karakusa off of normal pressure if you condition your opponent to block, which you can do with her many frame traps and throwing in random c.LKs and f+LPs to scare them. Overall, this is her most consistent way into Karakusa, due to the very small gap between the s.LK and Karakusa.

    In strings, s.LK xx HK Karakusa has the risk of counter-hitting an opponent accidentally. The more consistent option in strings is to do a s.LK xx Hayate Cancel, EX Karakusa, in which case counter-hitting and hitting allow a successful EX Karakusa attempt.

    - c.LP, s.LP, s.LK xx Hayate Cancel, EX Karakusa. Due to the EX Karakusa range buff, this is the way to Karakusa crouch techers off of a hit-confirm, since Blockakusa will counter-hit the opponent at times and fail. Between doing a Blockakusa and this Hayate Cancel, Makoto has the means to to throw a grounded opponent now without exposing herself to lights and throws.

    - j.LP, LK Karakusa tick throw. This is (was) one of her best ways into Karakusa because there isn't much risk of accidentally hitting and whiffing Karakusa due to hit-stun. The best part about this is that you can turn "predictable" safe jump OS attempts, which don't lead into as much against conditioned backdashers, into a good combo.

    - EX Oroshi, forward dash, forward jumping MP (because it looks cool) or neutral jumping LK, HK Karakusa. Use the jump that keeps you farthest from the corner. Oh man, this is tricky, and a great tool against charge characters if you cross up. The best part is it looks like Makoto is too far to grab her opponent on cross up! Mix this up with minorly delayed c.LK to keep them guessing.

    - LP Fukiage jump canceled EX Tsurugi, very minorly delayed Karakusa to catch a quick rise. This is a VERY deadly Karakusa, but it's moderately risky. The thing is, even though it's risky, there are three very powerful aspects to this setup that make me come back to it time and time again, regardless of the risk (unless I know it won't work):

    1. Usually ends the round, or comes very close to it. If you land a full s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage > EX Tsurugi, and then another combo, that's practically a guaranteed stun. Usually, the stun will come off of three or less hits if the opponent had any stun already inflicted. This means a full FA combo or into a reset, usually in the vicinity of 400 or so total damage from this one Karakusa, without Ultra. It may be risky sometimes, but we can say the reward is even greater.

    2. If the opponent doesn't quick rise, you recover in time to do anything you want. I recommend meaty s.MP or backdash, since there's a good chance your opponent will believe your intent is to choke them.

    3. It doesn't give the opponent much time to react if they quick rise.

    - Dash up, Fukikusa (63214+HP+HK). One of my favorites. When playing footsies, it is often the case that there's a reactionary game played, looking specifically for anti-airs and slow pokes. FAs will be buffered at this range, fishing for a hit to let someone in. There's always the possibility of a jump at the dash range. Well, the Fukikusa can demolish these possibilities, if your luck isn't trash.

    - (s.LK whiff), HK Karakusa on opponent's wake-up. The s.LK pushes Makoto back such that throws whiff and some normals whiff, giving you leeway to throw them without requiring perfect timing. I don't recommend this option that often, to be honest ... few people will sit still in front of a grappler on wake-up. Most will backdash, jump, safe reversal, or SOMETHING. I only recommend you use this after you OS someone's backdash to let them know they can't do that, or if you train them not to press anything.

    - f+MK, EX Karakusa. A very tricky tick into Karakusa, because you can always turn it into f+MK, s.HK TC. On hitting the f+MK, you will beat any throw or normal afterwards with EX Karakusa with perfect timing. On block, you can be thrown, but not attacked by normals. I recommend using two f+MK, s.HK TCs for every tick attempt you would ever do, and even then, be very sparing with this setup.

    - c.LP, s.LP, c.LK xx HC, s.LK Kara-Karakusa. An interesting way to combine a frame trap to make your opponent sit still and then grab them from out of range, assuming they stopped pressing buttons once CH. The c.LK xx HC pushes Makoto far enough back at this point so that s.LK will always whiff; the only problem is that it's possible you'll hit the opponent after the c.LK xx HC, meaning you'll whiff the Kara-Kara.

    - Blocked FA2, MK Karakusa. This is a well-known Karakusa trap; very frame tight, it will beat any throw attempt or normal, but it has its flaws. Much like on an opponent's wake-up, few will sit still after a blocked FA, especially online where reversals are common place after a blocked FA. This setup, like the majority of her Karakusa setups, are specifically to target those who don't try to escape. You can do this by attacking with c.LK xx EX Hayate after a blocked FA2; auto-block won't work for lows, so they have to be guarding low to counter that. Due to the nature of blocking low, there's no way to escape a Karakusa (except for certain characters, like Cody, Fei Long, and others who can hold down-back and reversal).

    - Anti-air with one of her many normals, dash in and Karakusa. A very powerful option, but I have to stress that attacking with hit-confirms should be the norm! This is especially powerful if you anti-air with s.LP, s.MP, and c.MK, since these normals give you the most time to have a meaty attack/throw afterward.

    - c.HP, empty jump, LK Karakusa. A good setup, if a bit gimmicky. Mix this up with c.HP, empty jump, s.MP or c.LK.

    - In the corner, LP Fukiage (not off of EX Hayate or U2 full animation) jump canceled neutral jump HP, LK Karakusa. Between meaty MP Oroshi, Karakusa, Tsurugi, and backdash, this is her newest ultimate risk vs. reward scenario. Do I have to stress that the other options are the norm, and Karakusa is for the read that they'll block high and not reversal?

    - s.MP xx HC, Karakusa. This is mainly used when playing Tsurugi, s.MP, Karakusa rock-paper-scissors. Because of the new Blockakusa, this is less useful, but it's still good while pressuring, because you don't need to have them block the attack. Watch out, throws almost always beat these set-ups except with perfect timing of an EX Karakusa.

    - Reset while attacking. This is the point where Karakusa becomes less of a mix-up and more of a gimmick. You can reset into Karakusa in a lot of ways. Some examples include

    Any neutral jumping attack, dash forward Karakusa.
    Karakusa, s.HP xx HC, delayed slightly s.LK xx HK Karakusa.
    s.MP, s.MP xx HC, HK Karakusa.
    FA2, LP Fukiage jump canceled j.HP, dash forward LK Karakusa.
    s.HP xx HP Hayate, FADC LK Karakusa.

    - EX Hayate blocked, FADC, EX Karakusa. It's a semi-consistent way to land a Karakusa if the opponent isn't buffer poking, but trust me, four meters is a lot to land a Karakusa. Use only when desperate.

    - EX Hayate in the corner, f+LK reset, Karakusa. In SSF4, this was actually Makoto's most powerful mix-up game, leading into Tsurugi, hit-confirm, Karakusa, or backdash. In AE, this doesn't happen without sacrificing a lot, because LP Fukiage is just too good to pass up. Top of the list in SSF4, bottom of the list in AE.

    What to do after you land the Karakusa!

    There's a priority check-list once you've landed the Karakusa, much like any combo. The difference is you get a large chance to check your meter and opponent's health while you're choking and pick the correct option for the situation.

    1. Priority 1 is to kill your opponent if possible. In order, there are priorities within this (unless it's the end of match point, meaning meter means nothing, then you can do whatever you want):

    a. You have to know if you can kill them without meter and Ultra. If so, do that, building as much meter as possible according to how much life they have left. Ideally you'll do s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx MP Hayate to build as much as you can. If they can't survive s.HP xx HC, s.MP, use s.MP, s.MP xx MP Hayate. If they can't survive two s.MPs, use s.HP, c.LP xx LP Hayate. If they can't survive s.HP, c.LP, use s.HP xx HP Hayate. If they can't survive s.HP, use s.MP xx MP Hayate. If they can't survive s.MP, use s.LP, c.LP xx LP Hayate. If they can't survive s.LP, c.LP, use c.LP xx LP Hayate to kill them. If they can't survive any normal, use plain LP Hayate.

    b. Kill with Ultra 1 if you can't meterlessly kill them and have Ultra 1.

    c. Kill with as little meter usage as possible if you don't have Ultra or you only have a half-charged Ultra. Assuming you've cornered the opponent, you get the most damage out of s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage for one bar. Out of the corner, s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx EX Hayate. With two bars in the corner, you can add an EX Tsurugi to the combo. Mid-screen, you can make your combo s.HP xx HP Hayate FADC s.LP, s.MP, s.MP xx MP Hayate, but that's really tough ... For three bars, see the EX Hayate FADC Fukiage mid-screen section. In the corner, you may be able to use EX Fukiage to add more damage with three bars, I believe it's character specific. With four bars, mid-screen you can use a Super combo to get max damage.

    The only time you don't want to do priority 1 is if you have a large amount of meter and you have a sizable life lead - just remember, with Makoto, your opponent can always make a comeback as easily as she can, meaning using meter to kill has more value than many other safer characters. My personal philosophy is if I can kill an opponent with my current meter, I go for it, regardless of Makoto's health.

    2. Stun your opponent if possible. See above for the best stun options, substituting EX Oroshi for EX Hayate unless near the corner. Ideally you want to do it with s.HP xx whatever, to save as much damage scaling as possible while conserving meter for the follow-up.

    3. Use Ultra 1 if you have it. Simple as that. It gives massively good situational advantage, letting you do anything you want, ranging from helping to corner the opponent to setting up a Karakusa or MP Oroshi. While saving Ultra 1 for later gives Makoto a lot of comeback factor, she doesn't really need it - lots of her combos do 300 or so damage for one meter. She relies on situational advantage to go into more insane stun and high damage, so just let rip if you ever land a Karakusa or FA or Tsurugi and you've got it.

    4. Corner your opponent as much as possible. This means EX Hayate when anywhere past 1/3 of the screen towards their corner. Otherwise, you use EX Oroshi to reversal the corner situation with corpse hop f+HK (held in). Makoto relies on the corner for her heavy damage, and her anti-airing gets easier due to limiting the space the opponent can jump at you, plus her buffer-pokes gain more chances to beat the opponent's button if they can't maneuver near them.

    5. Go for max damage. Usually this means s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx EX Hayate.

    6. Reset them, once in a blue moon.

    s.HP xx HC, s.MP, (delayed) s.LK xx HK Karakusa.
    s.HP xx HC, s.LK xx HC, LK Karakusa.
    s.MP xx HC, LK Karakusa.
    s.LP, HK Karakusa.
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Makoto's Mix-ups, part 2
    Hayate Canceling (HC henceforth) is the act of canceling any of her cancel-able grounded moves into a Hayate and immediately stopping the Hayate before it comes out. The purpose of doing this is generally for one of three reasons: to position yourself differently after the normal than normal, to make Makoto say "Here I come!" in order to trick your opponent into blocking, and to change your frame advantage for the better in the case of s.HP. Every other normal when HCed reduces frame advantage on block and hit. The only thing that matters when HCing is what normal you use; Hayate strength means absolutely nothing, except for EX, which isn't cancel-able.

    The easiest way to HC is via canceling with LP+LK, held in for a split second. Any Hayate aside from EX will work, but LP+LK is the easiest configuration for most controller schemes. If you attempt to HC and keep getting a Hayate, in all likelihood you are either negative edging the normal into a Hayate or you aren't holding in LP+LK long enough. To stop the negative edging, hold in your normal as you HC until the cancel is complete.

    Each HC pushes Makoto back a select distance more or less than normal. In order of pushback, from most pushback to negative pushback:

    - s.HP - Mildly backwards. +1 on block, +5 on hit. One of her only truly useful Hayate Cancels, it can be used:

    To start your hit-confirming.
    As a frame trap after s.LP.
    To aid s.HP's frame advantage after being used as an AA or punishing something like random Tatsu from a Shoto.
    In resets into HK Karakusa or delayed s.LK xx HK Karakusa.
    In punishers and any non-Tsurugi combo start like FA with the combo s.HP xx HC, s.MP xx whatever.
    As a mix-up between s.HP xx EX Oroshi or s.HP xx HC.

    In short, this is the one Hayate Cancel everyone can put into their game and benefit.

    - f+LP - Mildly backwards. -6 on block, -3 on hit. Garbage HC, due to the difficulty in getting a Hayate instead of a Fukiage, and the fact that the knockback doesn't push you far back enough to invoke trickery.

    - c.LP - Slightly backwards. -6 on block, -3 on hit. Similarly garbage.

    - s.LP - Slightly backwards. -6 on block, -3 on hit. Notice a pattern with her LP HCs? Garbage.

    - c.LK - Barely backwards. -6 on block, -3 on hit. Unlike the other light attack HCs, this has a purpose due to c.LK's very long hit-box. You can use this after c.LP, s.LP in order to push yourself to a distance where you can HK Tsurugi, s.LK Kara-Karakusa, jump at your opponent, or do nothing. If the frame advantage weren't so bad, it'd be an ideal mix-up, but as it is it's not something you want to do to yourself every time you end a hit-confirm into c.LK.

    - s.MK - Very, very slight knockback, little enough that several sets of s.MK xx HC can occur. -3 on block, 0 on hit. If s.MK's long range hit-box hit crouchers, this would give her an M. Bison-like corner pressure. As it is, the only way to hit a croucher with this is to be within s.MP range, in which case you have better options.

    c.MP - No knockback or advancing. -3 on block, 0 on hit. This is one of her best Hayate Cancels due to facts that it does not drastically lowering her frame advantage, c.MP is normally used to cancel into Hayate, and the immense range this has. This leads to the ability to psych out an opponent with an HC and then jump or dash up or anything, and to keep an opponent cornered without pushing yourself back.

    s.MP - Mild advancement. -1 on block, +2 on hit. One of her best HCs comes from one of her best normals, s.MP. In AE, the main use of it is to end a hit-confirm into closer pressure as a mix-up, like c.LP, s.LP, s.MP xx HC, IA MK Tsurugi, or s.MP, s.MP xx HC, HK Karakusa.

    In SSF4, this was Makoto's version of Guy's Run Stop pressure, playing into effect the ability to beat mistimed and slow normals, throws, jumps, blocking, and non-invincible moves, if the correct attack is used.

    Mixing up s.MP, s.MP xx HC, Kara-throw, EX Karakusa, IA MK Tsurugi, f+LP, c.LK xx EX Hayate, and other attacks can be done constantly with s.MP xx HC, allowing you to maintain pressure while keeping close and without massive frame disadvantage, especially if you start hitting counter hits or land the Tsurugi/Karakusa.

    The problem is there isn't as much inherent risk vs. reward in doing this. Suffice it to say, I could write an incoherent essay on her risk vs. reward in each situation, with a what-beats-what, and why you should do what, and her risks not paying off as much with s.MP xx HC pressure. Essentially, the gist is that s.MP xx HC pressure is a thing of the past, and is more luck than reads. You've always got to respect any throw and invincible reversals, and what you can do to beat those two destroy your momentum if failed.

    Don't misunderstand - s.MP xx HC pressure got buffed in AE. f+LP is 3 frames, making s.MP xx HC, f+LP much tighter than s.LP was. Her damage got buffed, so risk vs. reward got better. The thing is, she doesn't need to play these mix-ups anymore, because she can do more in all aspects of her game, so maintaining frame advantage up close leads to better risk vs. reward in that section. She doesn't need to throw that away, she can consistently open people up in other ways now, be it her new c.LK, her new EX Karakusa, her faster dash, her better defense, or Blockakusa, among other things.

    s.LK - Radically advances. -6 on block, -3 on hit. A fantastic move when done after a hit-confirm, due to EX Karakusa's range buff. Something like c.LP, s.LP, s.LK xx HC, EX Karakusa will counter-hit a crouch techer, leaving her at -2 on hit (impossible to be attacked out of) and out of range for most throws. This means they better jump, backdash, reversal, or walk back, or they're guaranteed to get thrown.

    (Note: HC frame advantage was calculated by taking the active frames of the moves, subtracting 1 for the initial active frame, adding that to the recovery of the move, then subtracting 16 (HC speed) from that number and adding the result to both her block advantage and hit advantage.

    s.LP has 4 active frames, 5 recovery frames, and is +2 on block, +5 on hit.

    4 - 1 + 5 - 16 = -8.

    2 - 8 = -6 on block.
    5 - 8 = -3 on hit.

    All of her cancel-able moves except for s.HP have less than 16 frames of active and recovery, leading to frame advantage loss.)
    Learning how to use Fukiage is great because:
    1. It hits in areas that Makoto can barely defend otherwise
    2. It leads to 300+ Damage on its own
    3. It conditions the opponent not to jump
    4. It is her primary combo extender in the corner.
    Fukiage, in SSIV wasn’t very dependable. Makoto’s hurtbox was too high, and therefore it could get stuffed by anything. This was unfortunate, because in Third Strike the hitbox was much better and had a wider variety of uses.

    Dare we say that in AE, the hitbox is as good as it can get? This thing hits everything that is airborne. And if you can learn to use it on reaction, Makoto will do very well! But it is difficult to use, even with the improved hitbox and lowered hurt box.

    Fukiage is a versatile tool that should not be neglected. It has several purposes that we will go over now:

    Use as an anti air
    Punishing escape attempts
    Use as a combo extender
    Resets

    Use as an Anti Air

    The basic and simplest purpose of Fukiage is Anti Air. Defense. That is to say… if someone jumps at you, especially if they jump late on your wakeup, do a Fukiage. But that’s obvious. There are some less obvious times to use it. These times, when they hit your opponent, make them think twice about jumping again and open them up to ground strings. The faster and more efficiently you confuse your opponent, the more effective Makoto will be.

    One of the most effective ways you can use Fukiage is on your wake up. But not everyone will do a late jump to get caught because they know how much damage it can do. Also people fear wakeup EX Karakusa or Ultra 1. So what most people will do is either throw, or neutral jump to try to maintain pressure.

    Now, sometimes you should block but there’s nothing wrong with a late crouch tech. You can protect yourself from both of these by buffering a Fukiage input during the crouch tech. If they try to throw you, you will tech. If they neutral jump, finish the input and hit :lp: or :mp: to catch them with Fukiage. Then continue your plan. Be careful though… this one will lose to random ultras, 0f grabs, and reversal SRKs. If you get the timing down though, a late crouch tech could be just what the doctor ordered.

    Another time you can use Fukiage is after a quick whiffed normal. One good example that vryu does is buffering Fukiage during a f.:mp: at mid range. People know that f.:mp: beats a lot of other pokes. So sometimes they think they can jump over it and hit you. F.:mp: on whiff almost always recovers in time for Fukiage to beat out any jumping attack cleanly. Just hold forward, push :mp: and if you see them jump, do a Hadoken (lol). Continue to combo for 300+ damage. Maybe they’ll stop jumping… This one seems like one of the safer uses of Fukiage, and allows you time to think in between moves since you already know what to do if they jump at you, and f.:mp: beats a lot of things out.

    Per Robot Makoto, ways to help land Fukiage as AA with the help of buffering and Makoto specifc tools:

    - c.LK buffered EX Hayate, buffering 236 after to Fukiage. c.LK has a duration of 14 frames, so as long as you started the c.LK only by a little bit after they jumped, you should be golden :tup:
    - f+MP to advance, waiting to LP Fukiage a jump. Good because it lets you hold forward while having a shield, plus it can provoke opponents to jump due to a poke. I especially like doing this at mid-long range, since there's very little risk. You can even take this a bit further and buffer 63236 into f+MP, but for some reason I dislike doing this.
    - Making an effort to walk forward a bit more than normal at mid-range.
    - f+LP spam at jump range. While there's only a little protection from pokes and such, it recovers quickly and keeps Makoto in place.
    - Using HP Oroshi a bit outside of jump-in range to build meter can be good as bait. If they jump while the Oroshi is active, not starting up, you have time to Fukiage.
    - Buffering 6323 within any backdash, especially on wake-up. Backdash is cancel-able at frame 22, otherwise it recovers for 5 more frames unconditionally.

    Punishing Escape Attempts

    Once you start dashing around, knocking people down 10 times a match and grabbing people with Karakusa, people will try their best to get away from you. Here is where her Fukiage becomes invaluable, both as an option select, and a counter to erratic jumping behavior some people do when they’re frustrated.

    The first and most common escape attempt is a back dash. Fukiage cannot beat this. However when used in the Fukikusa OS, Back dashing can quickly become a non option. The classic example of Fukikusa involves a post Hayate dash that is meant to keep pressure on. Just do a :hcb: :hp:+:mk:. Of course Karakusa will come out if they back dash, but if they jump up or back. Then Fukiage will punish their escape attempt. Continue your combo for good damage, and a mark against their morale…

    Another classic escape attempt is during a meaty setup such as:

    EX Oroshi, Dash, NJ (empty), s.:mp:

    The medium punch should hit meaty. But maybe you push it late? Maybe you pushed it just before you hit the ground and nothing came out? A classic response from the opponent is to jump. Wait to see if they do. Pretty much anytime you whiff any normal, have Fukiage ready. In the example, if whiff the s.:mp:, and they jump, then you may be able to catch them with Fukiage.

    Combo Extender

    The most common way we will use Fukiage is as a combo extender—mainly for corner combos. Usually this corner combo will come from an EX Hayate, but you can land it from other moves as well:
    1. after a level three Focus, if your opponent backdashes and is hit by the FA3, you can dash and land an HP/EX Fukiage>EX Tsurugi for GREAT damage (works midscreen. No EX or HP needed for corner)
    2. after a Focus Crumple. It has been explained how to use this in previous posts, but generally you can either back dash, then forward dash, then do MP/HP Fukiage to hit their crumpled state. Proceed to finish the combo.
    3. After EX Hayate, FADC (midscreen) Same as the corner combo, but needs 2 extra EX meter. (pretty! But not recommended
    Resets

    You can use Fukiage in many ways to reset your opponent. The reason to reset is that you wish to tack on extra damage since your opponent may not be paying attention. Popular setups include:
    1. (corner) after a focus, land a Fukiage then do a nj.:hp:. The :hp: will reset them. Land and do :mp: Oroshi. If done correctly, the Oroshi will hit meaty. If it hits proceed to B&B, if it does not, work on a Karakusa setup (Blockakusa works well here)
    2. Land any Fukiage, then time a f.:lk: to hit them before landing. This works well midscreen, and is great for dashing under and maintaining pressure. You can get some really meaty s.:lp:’s here, and that can set up just about any other move from s.:lp: all the way into Ultra 1.
    3. Land any Fukiage, then do a jf.:hp:. If done correctly, the side you land on will depend on the character, and will make for an ambiguous crossup. Take this time to do c.:lk: (block or hit, doesn’t matter) and grab with HK karakusa
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Makoto's Mix-ups, part 3

    First thing to say it that every Hayate gives the same amount of stun (120 non charged). Only the damage is slightly different (LP=90, MP=100, HP=110).

    For the frames advantages, LP version gives you +0, MP gives you +1, and HP +2.

    That's why we'll use MP or HP version every time we can, because +0F advantage is a little more "random" (see sakura's LK tatsu... +0F advantage. She can't really do anything great after it).

    1. Kara-EX Karakusa (120 stun)
    One of the best options, but again, just check what does your opponent on the first round to see how he reacts after your Hayate.
    Forward+LK is cancelable until the 6th frame. That means your opponent has 4F to react after a HP hayate (+2F).
    The fastest lights (and every other move...) in the game come out after 3F (except some special throw). That means that, if opponent mash 3F lights after your HP hayate, he has to do a just frame to counter it. He must be very lucky...

    And, as you surely know, crouch LK+LP (to tech throw) will result in a cr.LK (Kicks have priority on Punches when pushed at the same time). And most of cr.LK in the game are 4F+ (dictator has 3F cr.LK....i dont know others).

    Knowing this, you can understand that kara-EX karakusa will beat:
    - 4F+ lights
    - crouching techthrow (except against a just frame techthrow on a character who has a 3F cr.LK (dictator))
    - guard
    - non-reversal (cause armor break) 4F+ special move

    but you will lose to:
    - just frame 3F lights
    - backdash
    - standing throw
    - jump
    - invuln. move (shoryuken, etc)

    if you land id, you will refill about 70% of an EX.
    You will do AT LEAST a 258dmg/484 stun combo after it, just by doing st.HP -> hayate. You can do more if you have EX with st. HP -> feint -> st.MP -> EX oroshi (about 540 stun). Or just ultra1 (444dmg)

    2. Fukiage
    If you think your opponent will straight jump (or back jump in corner) to avoid the first option, just wait to see his jump, and do HP fukiage -> HP fukiage -> EX tsurugi for 328dmg/426 stun.

    This option doesn't have lot of risk, because you wait to see the jump before performing Fukiage.

    3. Kara-throw
    A safer (but less damage) version of kara-EX karakusa. If opponent avoid it with a backdash or a jump, you wont be punish as if you missed kara-EX karakusa.
    This comes out very quickly, and forward throw does 200 stun. With practice, you will be able to do kara-Backthrow, which is more useful because you can apply a wakeup mixup after it.

    If opponent straight jump and avoid it, you have time to LP fukiage.

    4. Tsurugi
    Will beat a standing techthrow attempt. Tsurugi -> st.HP (or st.MP if you're far) -> EX oroshi for 256dmg/400stun and a wakeup mixup. You can use ultra1 for 474 dmg.
    Note that you can use HK version to punish back dash, and every version will lose to Focus attack and jumps.

    5. EX Oroshi
    Very good against mashing reversal/lights opponent after your hayate. When I'm tired of getting DP'ed (hey! I mean dragon punched! not other thing xDDDD), I use it without thinking

    6. Forward Jump HK
    Use it if you KNOW that your opponent will back jump. But be careful. If opponent doesn't jump, you can be punish when you land.

    7. Forward+MP
    Quick move with lot of priority. If guarded, you are at +0F, so fill free to do what you want (EX karakusa, etc). If back dashed, you cannot be punished. If opponent straight jump and avoid it, just do a LP fukiage. If it hits (usually counter hit), you can do ..-> st.MP -> .... It will combo.
    Great move.

    8. Dash -> karakusa
    Will beat any backdash. This is THE THING to do against players who backdash a lot after your hayate. Risk&Reward are ok for it. You can be hit by a light or a shoryuken....but if opponent back dash, he's almost stun.

    The thing you have to know is that if you connect a MP hayate, that will means that you have AT LEAST done 220 stun, since the least you can do to connect a MP hayate is st.MP -> MP hayate (220stun).

    If you look at 1, 2, 4 or 8, and the stun they give (400-500), you can see that opponent will almost be stun if he choose the wrong option.

    Makoto is all about reading your opponent. You cannot just sit and wait. If you're not that kind of player, just choose another character, and dont spit on her ^^

    Post-hayate Option select 1
    Hayate -> st.MP ->
    a) st.MP -> hayate
    b) option select dash -> anymove, depending of opponent's backdash.

    1) opponent does an invulnerable move (shoryu, etc)....makoto loses

    2) opponent mash lights:
    *makoto wins sometimes with st.MP, so just do a)
    *makoto sometimes trades, but recover faster than opponent, so you have time to do cr.LK -> hayate

    3) opponent tries to jump:
    *some characters get hit at the beginning of their jump (airborn hit)
    *some characters (shotos for example) get hit before they leave the ground (i don't know why....i tried to hold "up", but get hit on the ground). It's a ground hit, so you can do a)

    4) opponent tries to backdash:
    *some characters get hit during their backdash, but are in the air, so they float and you cannot combo.
    *some characters completly avoid st.MP, so, do b).

    To do b), you have to buff your dash in the st.MP. If it whiffs, makoto will dash. Then, depending on opponent backdash (length/duration/etc), you can throw/cr.LP/karakusa/EX karakusa him. EX karakusa is maybe the safest option, because if opponent mash lights or shoryuken, she will be armored. Note that none of those options are 100% guaranteed.



    Karakusa OPTION SELECT Fukiage
    Works after any Hayate, but depends on opponent's jump (another character specific thing, yeah yeah :p).
    Hayate -> dash -> 63214+HP+MK
    - opponent backdash or guard => karakusa
    - opponent straight/back jump => fukiage

    When opponent jumps, makoto goes to the other side for a bit, making you finish the input as if you did fukiage.
    Makoto's mix-up off of Hayates can often be the most crucial, make-or-break part of her momentum game. Makoto has to choose the right option for the job, depending on multiple factors.

    LP Hayate is +0 on hit, can combo off of anything, and keeps Makoto a bit out.
    MP Hayate is +1 on hit, can combo off of s.MP, c.MP, s.MK, and s.HP, and puts Makoto within c.LK range.
    HP Hayate is +2 on hit, can combo only off of s.HP, and puts Makoto close to an opponent.
    EX Hayate is knocks down for roughly 40 frames if the opponent quick rises, can combo off of anything, and naturally leaves Makoto two dashes away from her opponent.

    In a match, you will land MP Hayate and EX Hayate the most in footsies, with LP Hayate reserved for hit-confirms and mix-ups, and HP Hayate for combos only. Often, it's hard to get in on an opponent, and a buffer poke can at times be the ticket into an opponent's area, which is where MP and EX Hayate come in.

    - LP Hayate mix-ups. The distance is not set after LP Hayate; the closer you were when you started the Hayate, the closer you'll be. The distance ranges from as far away that s.LK Kara-Karakusa won't connect, up to as close as c.LK range. In general, LP Hayate mix-ups are weak and don't carry much ability to start real pressure aside from random hits. In order of preference:

    f+MP from far LP Hayate hits. The spacing is excellent for a counter-hit f+MP utterly wrecking most normals an opponent can throw out.

    Kara-throw to beat normals, FAs, and blocking. Loses only to reversals. By far her most consistent option after LP Hayate, abuse it until they start reversaling or throwing or crouch teching, then start punishing.

    Block/backdash to beat reversals. Since her other setups aren't great, the risk vs. reward for attacking is lowered. Taking this time to get a read on the opponent or hope they give you a punish is very worthy.

    s.HK to beat normals. Loses to quick FAs and reversals, doesn't catch jumps or back dashes. At LP Hayate distance, this poke is GODLY, beating all crouch techs and many pokes.

    IA HK Tsurugi at max range to beat normals and long-range throws. Loses to FAs, reversals, and neutral jumps. A consistent option, but very punishable on prediction. Loses to reversals and FAs.

    FA1, backdash to beat normals. Loses to backdashes, jumps, and reversals. Not consistent, but if you score a counter hit off of this, it can lead to something along the lines of 250 damage or so if you dash forward.

    f+LP to beat jumps and normals. Loses to reversals. Yep, this is one of her only ways to pre-emptively beat a jump without putting herself at risk with a slow normal or an unsafe special.

    j.HP/j.MK to beat jumps and blocking. Loses to reversals. LP Hayate often puts Makoto at a good jumping distance, occasionally at an ambiguous cross-up range. Considering her other options, it's good if you feel you won't get punished for it.

    s.LK Kara-Karakusa to beat blocking from almost max range. Loses to everything but blocking and FAs. At max range, this whiffs. At most ranges, this becomes a Blockakusa or Hitakusa, and that's not good.

    - MP Hayate mix-ups. MP Hayate has a consistent range to it, landing just outside of s.LP range. The +1 frame advantage and close vicinity make this set up mix-ups quite a bit more consistent than LP Hayate. In order of preference:

    Kara-throw to beat normals, FAs, and blocking. Loses only to reversals. Even more consistent than after LP Hayate, abuse it until they start reversaling or throwing or crouch teching, then start punishing.

    IA MK Tsurugi to catch normals and throws. Loses to reversals, FAs, and neutral jumps. This is an optimal mix-up against most characters, she's a bit close but far away enough to not get hit by most crouch techs on the way up, and she has a bit of a frame shield.

    f+LP to beat jumps and normals. Loses to reversals. Better due to +1 frame advantage, and the fact that Makoto is closer lets you do more after a blocked or hit f+LP.
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71

    Edit: This has become the new match-up section. Unfortunately, we didn't start the match-up thread, and the person who did isn't a regular to this forum.
    Some tricks vs Feilong by V-Ryu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rirapHSGMKs

    Rekka: LP rekka is -4 on block. With crLK's new range, it's possible to punish them if they are not too far away. P-Link crLK to have better result (crLK~LP). You can simply use f+MP too, since it's a 7F move and Fei is -4, the worst result you can have is a trade if Fei does crLP. But f+MP damage and frame advantage is better than Fei's crLP.
    Not that any 2nd rekka on block can be punished by reversal Ultra1.

    Overhead: Feilong sweep doesn't hit far, and, usually, players are out of range to space their rekka. So, you don't need to be crouched. If it happens, Feilong can attempt overhead. Don't forget it's -4 on block, and can be punish by crLK too.

    Ultra choice: Ultra 1 is good to punish jumps (those famous straight jump to avoid EX karakusa for example), be comboed as usual, and punish a 2nd rekka guarded. Ultra 2 is very good to flee, because you don't want to stay in the corner against Feilong.

    kara EX Karakusa: Can be used after a blocked rekka. Feilong players don't often back dash or jump after it. Use it if you are out of crLK range.

    Mid-screen strategy: Try to stay out of rekka range with footsies, so you can punish any whiffing attempt. Use a lot of stMP/crMP/crLP/crLK OS (EX) hayate while doing that. Be ready with fukiage to counter chicken wing or jumps. Dont rush feilong until you have a knockdown.

    Option select on wakeup: Since Fei's Flame Kick is 5F, it's "safe jumpable". OS with crMP to beat backdash/EX Chicken Wing or to go under non-EX Chicken Wing then punish. For non-jump option select, you can use crLP -> stLP+MK to have the same result.

    Guarded Hayate FA backdash: Works on everybody, but magic against feilong. His 3F crLP punish every guarded hayate. Turn it to your advantage and simply FA (let it hit) -> backdash. You will counter-hit feilong if he tries to punish your hayate.

    Tsurugi crossup: SUPER tsurugi crossup still work and you don't really need any specific setup, thanks to AE tsurugi hitbox. Not that midscreen backthrow -> crHP (whiff) -> MK tsurugi is unblockable if Fei is standing.

    EDIT: Found a newer match. Great use of c.MK.


    This is a loss that shows just how hard the Fei match-up can be. Misaki is content to play defense since Makoto can't run in without risking serious damage, but Haitani still manages to show us some great play in the second round. Patience is key to playing a Fei that is content to space you out with rush punches. Put him in the corner, but still be aware of his various ways of getting out or countering you.

    Some tricks vs Yun by V-Ryu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ4pBxza9b4

    Palm: You can punish them on reaction with EX hayate. A bit dangerous (sometimes trade), but doable. Watch out for feints to bait you.

    Ultra choice: Ultra 2 is very good to go out of corner, but good Yun can punish you with EX lunge punch...So Ultra 1 is maybe better, and allow you to make yun fear EX karakusa.

    Wakeup Nishou (dragon kick): Yun's lower body is not invulnerable (except EX). Turn it at your advantage. You can use HP oroshi to beat LK/MK nishou or trade with HK Nishou (but knockdown and better damage). Don't use it as meaty, but first active frames have to hit when Yun preforms his Nishou.
    Another solution to beat any non-delayed reversal Nishou (even EX) and backdash is the following setup: EX oroshi -> dash -> f+HK (hold) -> jump HP (hits high)

    crHP mixup: Even in SUPER, you could do crHP -> dash -> f+HK (hold) to switch side on some characters. You can still do it in AE, and it's especially easy on Yun and Yang. Use it to mix a lot.

    EX lunge punch: Makoto doesn't have Gouki's crMK or Yang's crLK to make it whiff and punish. You have to rely on EX oroshi or stMP to beat it. With good reaction, you'll get use to it.

    Mid-screen strategy: You don't want yun to rush you in corner. Try to stay mid-screen as often as possible, except when you have a knockdown. Yang is easier to keep away, because he can only come close by jumping or walking. Yun can Lunge Punch. To ruins his air-game, use LK -> MK target combo and (kara) EX fukiage if he's far. Target combo will hit normal divekicks, delayed divekicks and jump attack. EX fukiage is wonderful, but you have to have good reaction as soon as you see him high enough to not be able to reach ground with a LK dive kick.

    s.LP anti-air, dash under is very good against the twins. It can be super ambiguous at times where Makoto will land, and she gets massive frame advantage to have a meaty attack.

    Dive kick/EX lunge punch pressure: To avoid Yun's usual strategy (divekick/lunge punch -> crLP or EX tenshin or dive kick), you can do 2 things.
    1) MP fukiage: Early frames are airborn. If Yun attemps to dive kick, you will hit him. If he does crLP, you will be hit airborn and take space. But you will lose to EX tenshin.

    2) guard OS techthrow+backjump HP: After his divekick/EX lunge punch, you can "simply" guard crouch for FEW frames, then immediatly backjump with LK+LP+HP. If Yun try to throw you, you will techthrow (delayed). If he does crLP, you will guard. If he tries to dive kick again, he will get hit by backjump HP, and if he does EX tenshin, backjump will come out (and you can punish).

    Dive kick pressure (corner): You can use crMK-techthrow (crLK+LP+MK) OS LP fukiage. It will techthrow, beat low dive kicks, delayed divekicks and normal jumps.

    Shoulder pressure: Don't forget that this move is not Armor Break. The common MP -> LP shoulder doesn't combo if guarded. You can FAlvl2 or EX karakusa on the shoulder.




    From KSRezscind:
    Well, I'm not the best at this type of thing, but here is my input. Anyone can feel free to critique any mistakes. I only know Gen from the 5 minutes that I just played him in Challenge mode, so forgive my lack of in depth Gen knowledge. I only plan on doing some pretty basic stuff in training mode, because I literally knew nothing of how to combat Gen before this.

    Do not focus attack. This has always ben my downfall since I'm a focus-happy koto. Gen has many ways to tear FA apart.

    Mantis Stance(While his hands are in front of him, these 2 specials are available to him)

    Gekiro (Gen's kicking reversal), has been trouble to me for a while.
    - Everything but EX seems to miss crouching opponents. I found Gen would go right above my head if I was using c. LK even when on top of him.
    - Everything but EX whiffs unless Gen is right on top of you while you're standing. I found this made using Fukiage hard because you need to be very precise with range. Also, sometimes the kick whiffs and actually crosses to your other side when close. Therefore, I believe s. MK or s. MP are the best ways to deal with those.
    - I've noticed a lot of Gen's love to use the EX version, and on hit, just hover above you before continuing their kicks. lp. Fukiage destroys this completely, while MP Fukiage had a tiny inconsistency...it would whiff at the specific moment Gen continued his kicks.
    -His EX also tracks on cross up I believe.
    -So, I think the best bet is to use a crouching game against him up close. Try to bait his reversals on knockdown. If you see yellow stuff, you have plenty of time to react. The range of c. MP may be very useful. It beats out all but EX Gekiro, or the others go right over it.
    -1 last thing about this move. If Gen whiffs this reversal, and he is near the corner, you have loads of time to punish with EX Hayate into wall combo

    Hyakurenko (Gens rapid poke special)
    -If Gen is just poking the air to keep you out or something, I found 3 best bet options. cr. LK goes right under this special at a decent range. Furthest range that works is a straight up sweep. Knock him down! The last "go to" move is cr. MK. All other pokes (s. MP, c. MP, s MK...etc) had to be at max distance or Makoto would take damage. cr. MK always poked this move out. Standing HK was also good, but if it was too close, it would trade. And the hilarious thing is, at max distance, Makoto's sweep makes s. HK look like a joke. She easily reaches about 2+ character lengths to sweep Gen.
    - An interesting thing is HK Tsurugi seems to do well against this move, however you must either jump right above his head, or the easier way of hitting his pokes with the very tip of Makoto's foot. This means don't do tsurugi late. j. HP has a very similar situation. If you do it too late, it will trade with Gen. However, if graze him with j. HP, it will beat out his special cleanly.

    Crane Stance(While his one hand is behind him, these moves are available for him to use)

    Jyasen (Gen rolls at you than does a stretching poke thing)
    -c. MP reigns supreme here. You can beat him out of his roll. It's easy to react to.
    -Note that this move he does requires a 2 second or so charge.
    - Kara Ex Karakusa seems to work on block, but I believe this is risky because I've seen many Gens reversal right after. Make them be afraid to reversal and you may do as you please.
    -c. lk after block may be useful to interrupt, and go under his reversals, but it is not a proper punish as far as I know. If Gen reversals right after, I realize that even s. MP beats it out because Jyasen pushes him too far away for any of them to connect, unless you jump at him.
    -If you see him rolling at you...you can always jump over him and use EX hayate.

    Oga (His jump all over the screen special)
    -This has single handedly caused me to look into Gen. There are many variations of this move, which leads me to looking for the most reliable counter. It breaks your focus attack, so do not try to stop it that way.
    - One variation, Gen does nothing but land somewhere else, not attacking you.
    -Another, he crosses you up. He does not jump toward his wall, he jumps right at you. This one has always destroyed my fukiage attempts, turning it into an Oroshi, and getting me owned in the process. Now, the BEST way to deal with this I found is jump back fierce. The other methods are pointless. I found you can just block in the other direction obviously, or try an Ex hayate. The EX hayate will turn into and EX Oroshi if he crosses you up, OR it will allow you to escape if it actually comes out. Sometimes an EX Fukiage came out too, and it hit him. But screw those, jb. HP all day.
    -If he jumps toward his own wall(behind him), then you can just block, or poke him out if you want. There is one variation of this that can be annoying, he goes directly above your head. This is easy to fukiage, and it does not cross up, so you can still block normally. However, I don't have gdlike reaction like some others here, so I prefer taking the easy man's way out of all Oga tricks. Jump back fierce will leave cause all of these versions to whiff, and if he went for the version just above your head, you land in time to punish him with s. MP > special.

    Based on what I've learned so far, I believe staying within c. MP range is best in this match up. Sorry for the lack of anything high level, like meaties, huge combos or anything of the sort. This is basically to help anyone you legitly has no clue about Gen. If it doesn't help anyone..then lol, at least I helped myself.

    btw: the gen forums had nothing on this match up that I could find either lol. So maybe if we're lucky, they are in the dark too.
    [/quote]
    From V-ryu

    strange, I really have 0 problems with Dictator :x
    His nerf on his crLK and our buff on our crLK makes a difference.

    In corner, he can absolutly do nothing. EX Psychocrusher is too slow (you can safe jump, safe light, etc) and punish with EX hayate. He cannot backjump to avoid EX karakusa or it's a free MP fukiage. Same for EX stomp or EX devil reverse.

    If you have problem with crLK -> scissor punishing your guarded hayate, just FAlvl1 to counter hit, and rape him.

    On wakeup, switch side and make OS to beat backdash, teleport and any EX stomp/devil reverse (crLP OS f+LP+MP, then adapt depeding on what he does).

    After his scissor, you can use stHK to beat another crLK (if he's close), or simply do crMK to beat any option if he's far.

    Oh, and tsurugi crossup works in corner against him^^

    And ultra1 > ultra2 in this matchup, at least for me.

    OS fuki on EX psychocrusher doesnt work.
    ...
    you can use OS dash to (after breaking his charge, so no EX psycho) and punish.
    Here is an example (it's SUper, not AE, but OS stay the same):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp7HsXWYRxE

    Here's another take on the match-up, this time from Combofiend

    The Ibuki Match up
    I will go over Ibuki's strengths and weaknesses describe how is best to deal with them. To be honest the best thing to do against Ibuki is to "block" and when there's an opening in her block string back dash to reset the situation and try to find an opening.

    Strengths

    Kunai Mixup
    -I heard a lot of people have problems when Ibuki knocks you down and SJ's towards you and throws the kunai. As the kunai is hitting you, you must block in the direction of "Ibuki". It is also recommended to block standing because if your crouching the kunai becomes an unblockable if hit on a certain frame.

    -If the kunai isn't a meaty you can also ex karakusa if the Ibuki player starts a grounded block string.


    The Untechable Knock Down
    -Every time Ibuki knocks you down it's untechable unless it was a dp that knocked you down. A good Ibuki player will OS you on your wake up so NO back dashing or reversals are allowed against good Ibuki players because you will either get your neck broken or eat a high damage Ultra


    The EX Dragon Punch
    -A lot of Ibuki players will sometimes throw out this reversal recklessly because its kinda of weird to punish. When actually its one of the most highly punishable reversals in the game. To punish properly you must dash or jump towards Ibuki before she even has a chance to throw the kunai. If you forget to do one of these things you could always just ultra 2. This removes any guessing of whether or not she is going to throw the kunai.


    Her Overhead (The comand normal)
    -Be careful crouch teching because if you get caught by this you could be eating a combo into ultra. She's at frame advantage if blocked so watch out for a frame trap.

    Weaknesses

    Her Ground Game
    -Her ground game is horrible and Makoto's is far superior to hers. Here is rundown of her most used normals.

    ---Cr. Strong-- This move protects her ground space and can be buffered into a special just like Makoto's cr. strong. So don't rush in recklessly and protect your own space while building meter

    ---Slide-- This is the move most Ibuki players will use to advance on the ground and if spaced poorly can be punished with cr. lk xx whatever. If you see an Ibuki in her slide range always have a cr. lk buffered into an ex hayate to ruin her day

    ---St. Forward--This is a good priority normal with crappy range. Use cr. stong before Ibuki is close enough to use this move

    The Strategy

    The objective in this match up for both characters is the same, and that is to get the first knock down. If she manages to get the first knockdown make sure you don't let her do a million block strings on you because she builds a ton of meter that way. And once you get that knock down DO NOT let pressure go, especially if Ibuki has no meter. When Ibuki has no meter go for counter hit set ups and anti back dash strings until you bring her to the corner. After that she pretty much lost already.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdWG80i11L4&feature=player_embedded
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Man i havent' had problems with Chun in a long time. As long as I block correctly, its like fighting a weak Dudley lol. She has NO answer for HK Tsurugi at all, especially on wake up. Your main goal here is to get that knock down and bait those Neutral Jump :hk:'s because you have like 10 seconds to dash up and fukiage that shit. F.:mp: beats a lot of her shit. She's going to be wanting to charge down back, so she's pretty easy to grab.

    -Don't try short range pokes with her. S.:mp:/c.:mk: beats most of her options. Look for opportunities to to IAT, especially when she is trying to trip you.

    -Always safe jump her wakeup, but every now and then mix in HK Tsurugi. 150 Damage and UTK, so even if you trade, you can dash 2~3 times and be right back in her face.

    -DO NOT FOCUS. At all. She has several normals that you will see often that hit twice and can combo into other crap. Just leave it at home for this fight.

    -Make sure to block low first, THEN watch for the overhead. Most of them are just trying to get c.:lk: x2 into EX legs into U2.

    -Have fukiage ready on wakeup. Be prepared to hit her. do not try to focus that flip kick, because she can c.:lk: you out.

    -HK Tsurugi on wakup makes both of her wakup ultras whiff.

    -Meaty s.:mp: and below will make U2 whiff. Dash in and punish.

    -Most OS do not work on her back dash, but Fukikusa works. Timing is weird though

    At max range focus is good, but you almost never want to hold it though. She can't cancel most of her long range normals so instead of trying to crumple, dashing up with :lk: Karakusa is better. :hk: at max range.

    Turtle chuns are only tough until you corner them. I actually find them easy to corner. The problem is not dashing/jumping in. GOT to be patient. GOT to use that time. Honestly, without a KD, Chun has NO way in on Makoto. Most Makoto's that I watch lose to Chun because of the damage they take trying to get in.

    Best thing that i've found is finding that perfect range where you can jump over and punish a fireball on reaction. Its way out of her c./s.:hk: range, and her recovery is so significant that you just j.:hk:, c.:mp:, EX Hayate on reaction. Instant corner, and advantage: Makoto. This range is easily obtained once you beat a few of her pokes, because her only option is to throw FB (since if she does Hazanshu she eats Focus level 2 or CH).

    OH one more thing. This has worked at least 110% of the time for me. ANYTIME I see Chun Jump from 1/2 screen away, I do a forward dash under her and sweep. It literally works every single time, because they will try to swing as you cross and lose their tripguard. So for her Jumping=free ok for Makoto before she hits the ground. If you're feeling ballsy though, say fuck it and do EX Fuki

    For additional info look for will08's post on this page:
    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/makoto-strategy-and-match-ups.98735/page-38



    He can be difficult to deal with because of his hop mixups/gimmicks and his akwards jump arc. Be mindful that Makoto's normals are better than his, so you can actually play decent footsies vs blanka and AA him everytime (I tend to use cr.MK vs him a lot and lp fukiage if he jumps from too close). Your main goals in this match: 1-. Cornering him 2-. knock him down or 3-. get him in blockstun and start frame traping him which prevents him from moving too much. You can accomplish Nº2 by using backthrow, EX oroshi, AA fukiage, Ex hayate as punish or footsie (cr.mp OS ex hayate), and from there you can proceed with your frame traps, you can also get him in blockstun by AA him in the air with a normals and dash under....also do NOT jump at him, you dont need to, you can dominate him on the ground so much that he's almost forced to jump at you at some point. You can use her amazing normals to keep him out of your range, st.MP cr.MP and st.HK stop him on his tracks if he goes for "surprise hops" trying to get in (st.Hk is a bit more risky if they see it coming and jump, so be careful)

    The hard part is when he knocks you down, since he has so many options and hop mixups that is impossible to tell what is he gonna do to you, he can go for either electricity, sweep, throw, ex upball etc. Know that you can actually punish ex upball on block or hit with EX hayate, and his sweep can be cr.mp xx mp/ex hayate on block. If he has U1 and he doest it meaty, there's nothing you can do UNLESS you use U2 (which I personally reccomend vs blanka) to escape. Also if he tries to chip you with his own U2, you can jump the first wave and then U2 him as soon as you land.

    Now when you knock him down, thats when the fun begins. I`ve talked to a lot of players (not only makoto users) and they still have troubles vs electricity on wakeup, well makoto can punish that heavily with her meaties: st.MP, cr.MK, cr.LK, even st.HK, all of them will CH his electricity and grant you (except maybe st.HK at certain ranges) a free combo in which you can knock him down again and repeat until he smarts up. Some blankas like to do EX upball on wakeup, dont be afraid of that, and just stick to meaties on wakeup, you can punish it for FREE on hit/block with your EX hayate (not sure about U2 on hit, can someone confirm???) I also reccomend cornering him as soon as possible, so use EX hayate in your combos until he's cornered. Once he's down in the corner he's definitely in big trouble, now most blankas like to escape with EX rainbow ball because they know that's blanka's weakest spot. So on his wakeup you can do meaty cr.lp OS st.mp (you have to plink the st.mp and st.lp) so if he blocks the cr.lp, a st.lp will come out, but if he does Ex rainbow ball st.mp will come out and stop him (this setup also beats electricity and the wont do EX upball since its a free combo/punish...but if they do..punish that shit!).

    Another Os I use, is the one VRYU taught in one of his vids, meaty cr.MK os LP hayate which beats everything but Ex upball but...you know the deal with that. And a third OS is to do meaty cr.lp OS lp fukiage, the motion would be: 3 cr.lp 236 LP, so fukiage will come out of cr.lp misses due to the ex rainbow ball which grants you a better punishment. And regarding Ex rainbow ball, most people get confused by it when blankas do it "randomly trying to get a lucky hit" but you DONT, Ex rainbow ball is the biggest focus bait in the game, just FA dash and punish. Finally sometimes blankas get desperated and do wakeup U1 when you are close, this can be hard if you have a small bit of life left.. LOL no, you dont even need to take any chip from it, just wait until the first part begins and as soon as you see him in the air LP Fukiage him, it doesnt even trade if you do it properly and you get a nice chunk of damage + knockdown/cornering.

    So bottom line/ tl;dr version: stay out until you can knock him down/get him to block something, if he knocks you down be patient and get out as soon as you can, this match can be hard if you rush into him recklessly, but thats not how we play Makoto right? ;) She can dominate blanka in lots of aspects if you play smart and patient.

    Bonus: Sometimes vs hop mixups, focus backdash works "ok", dont be predictable with it though...oh and use U2 to escape and punish Blanka Balls.


    Ultra of Choice-Comfort is the key here. If you have a defensive playing style, I say U2. You will have a few chances to land karakusa...you just have to be VERY careful. U1 is probably better, but U2 is more versatile. Rufus is the type of character that gives all characters in the game all kinds of problems. So I say its a toss up here. Advise is appreciated lol.

    Offensive Opions - Geeze what a matchup!! This is like fighting a Cammy with unlimited super meter that does Zangief damage, has Viper like mixups, and the most amazing Air to Air moves ever in a regular Street Fighter game. Seriously. Don't be fooled by this guy's weight. He can, and will, kick your ass if you let him. And quickly too. But if you are going to win you will need offense.

    The best thing you can do is stay on offense. You want to keep Rufus out... that's really the only offense you can generate against him. Kill him while he's trying to get in. Build as much meter in the process, and wait for him to build up to an EX bar. When he does, GO FOR A KNOCK DOWN. Anthing will do. Back throw, sweep, Oroshi... Anything to get him off of his feet. Reason? Because Rufus, like many other characters has only 1 wakeup option. EX Jesus Kick. That's it. You can safe jump, meaty, option select the SHIT out of Rufus. It is a completely different thing when he's got Meter. Honestly, cMK is your best friend in this matchup. Next is stMK and cMP. Poke him from as far away as you can. Frustrate him... get him on his back, bait those Jesus Kicks, and meaty his ass to death.

    Defensive Options - BLOCK. BLOCK. BLOCK. BLOCK. FUCKING BLOCK. I was just going to type that for like 10 lines and leave it at that lol. But seriously, you've got to exercise patience in this match. Rufus is faster than you, stronger than you, has more health/stun than you, more offensive options than you.... I mean.... he's the best character on the game. how do you beat him? BLOCK. BLOCK. BLOCK FUCKING BLOCK lol. Rufus has no command grabs. Not even for an ultra. He doesn't even have a good option outside of Jesus kick that does a lot of chip. you will be catching dive kicks all day long. they don't chips. cLKs and LPs and whatever. Learn to tech his throws. This matchup can really only be won with sufficient experience. I have little advise outside of that... Just... be careful....

    Safe Jumps- Most normal save jumps work on him. See the safe jumps section.

    Option Selects - Rufus specific. after a dive kick, push cLP, cLK, and cMK at the same time. tech's his throws, beats dive kick attempts. You should keep blocking if he continues a block string. Once he breaks the string whatever he does should get beat out. This will lose to EX JK.

    Reverse Matchup Information -Coming soon.

    Problem Solving - I know this is one of our toughest matchups. Therefore I will just post a few videos of High level competitive play. Geeze this guy is tough... here you go:

    - Big tried his best to stay offensive here. its really tough though, if rufus happens to get inside. this happened A LOT. He just couldn't keep Rufus off of him. Great play from big, but this is what happens when you can't dictate the pace of the match.

    - mok Poked this guy to DEATH. Nothing rufus can do from cMP range, really. He's got short limbs, cHP is slow and can be poked out. Mok was punishing rufus's every move. One thing mok does very well is build meter. He is patient, and is willing to wait it out because rufus will eventually make a mistake. When he did, he was punished without impunity.

    - This is what I want to be like lol. Ideally, vryu is is usual confident self. The one thing i like most about vryu is that everything he does is cold and calculating. He would get inside on rufus, kick a little ass with ALOT OF THE STUFF WE HAVE IN THIS FORUM (meaties, safe jumps, good blocking etc), and get back out. He kept rufus right where he wanted him, until rufus gets frustrated and starts making bad decision. Soon, rufus dies from vryu's calculated onslaught. GOD i love watching him play lol.

    I hope these help. lol. I'll do a little more research...
    For geif I'm going to mash everything together lol.... here goes:

    Honestly you should be able to poke gief to DEATH. The best pokes you can use are (in order of usefulness):

    -standing/sMP mashing/larietmashing gief- use s.MK, c.MK, t.MP, c.HK, st.MP

    --at max range, s.MK is ALWAYS your best option here, because it stuffs everything a standing gief can do. beats lariet, beats all his pokes at max range, SPDs whiffs. at closer ranges c.MK is much better, just due to it stuffing everything EXCEPT SPD. try not to stay close for too long at this point. Then, the only thing he can do is come after you. So....

    -grounded/walking/green hand/stHK (to bait for SPD)/c.t.mk mashing gief - use s.MK, c.mp, c.mk, BACK THROW, c.lk, c.HP

    Here's an example of what I mean. Wasn't the best gief ever, and we're both a lot better, but you'll get my point.

    --again s.MK is your best option here. it really stops gief from progressing. At max range, it stuffs walking/green hand/any random poke that gief does. EXCEPT his s.HK. For this you need to stuff it while its active or backdash. if you don't, then expect to catch SPD and free mixup (for him). to beat his s.HK, use c.mp or c.mk depending on the range. Be aware of your spacing because lp SPD has the range we wish we had with Karakara. Seriously. Oh yeah, and make sure to BACK THROW ALL WHIFFED/BLOCKED GREEN HANDS. You desperately need a knockdown if gief is that close... If he can't get in he'll try other options...

    -jumping/headbutt mashing/jump in MK/splashing gief - use Jump back HP, st.MK, c.MK, st.MP, or Dash under sweep.

    --Jump back HP stuffs a lot of giefs air options. I actually have a tally going with my best friend of how many rounds I won with A2A jump back HP lol. Hundreds. For real lmao. If you cannot get off the ground for it, or if he timed the jump really well, at max range, again, st.MK works wonders. Up close use c.MK, and VERY close use st.MP's bizzare hitbox to beat out his attacks. Yes I know you've seen st.MP hit someone behind you trying to cross you up. Well this is one of those situations....

    Now you are going to make a mistake. Here is how you can get yourself away from gief

    -If you get SPD'd. KNOW that he is most likely going to green hand to close the distance. since you are down he might use HP Green hand. WATCH FOR THIS, because if he uses HP Green hand, you can LK KARAKUSA his ass when you wake up. Fuck regular throwing. you can net some serious damage off of this. from what I've seen it beats everything he can do except EX SPD, which i've seen like 1 time. But, uh, please use very sparingly.

    -again, if you get SPD'd, and he doesnt' use HP Green hand but uses another green hand, your best option is to back dash. Sometimes you may want to focus xx into back dash just in case he tries to poke you on wake up. This happens often. But more often then not if you backdash on wakeup hes' going to start using EX Green hand for another knock down. THIS is the knockdown you want to avoid, because besides a complete breakdown in his play, if he just does whatever he feels, there is NOTHING you can do about it but die. READ: if you get knocked down and gief is close to you, expect to die. You have no reversal options, and he has 10+ mixups he can apply to your wakeup. Don't give up. You have a few very risky options that include wakeup throw/EX (insert special)/Ultra, but i don't know of a dependable strategy. Yes, fight, but its going to take some luck to get you out. I can't help you lol.

    -You basically want to frustrate gief the way guile frustrates us. I've noticed that giefs take a lot of risks because they have so much health. But several pokes later will have them second guessing themselves. This is when you go in for the kill... You have one goal in this fight:

    KNOCK GIEF DOWN!!!

    Remember, theres another character who does some really nasty shit on the opponents wakeup... who was it... oh yeah, its MAKOTO!! Don't forget who you are in this match! respect gief but do not FEAR him. You can kill him just as quickly as he can kill you, but you can stun him faster. Here's what you can do to win.

    On gief wakup

    -HK Tsurugi all day. Most giefs will try to lariet you on your way down. HK Tsurugi stuffs ALL of his non forward-moving options. I tend to trade a lot with MK tsurugi (don't use lk at all), so HK is the way to go. Most giefs think that lariet is a get out of jail free card, so they'll mash it on wakeup. I say you do this 2 or 3 times until they get the point.... so now that he's lost 650 health points (that's 150 per hk Tsurugi + whatever you used to knock him down :))....

    -He might try to back dash. this gets beat by HK tsurugi.
    -He might try blocking, we'll cover this in a second.
    -He might try c. MP (anti air), and again will lose.
    -Only way he can get out is Green hand. Or if you mess up the timing, he can SPD your recovery. Prepare for this. After a HK Tsurugi or two (esp if he tries to back dash first) in stead of jumping up, jump back and HK on the way down. If he does any green hand you get free jHK, c.MP, MP Hayate combo. If you guess wrong though, you can be punished. Be aware of this when playing your Tsurugi games on his wakeup.

    -Another bad situation you can put your self in is having a Special blocked. After any blocked, a good gief will try to SPD. If you are unpredictable about it, they will mess up the timing. So I follow this rule:

    --After every blocked special, I do Jump back HP.

    -This beats ALL of his options besides perfectly timed SPD (you'll know because he'll grab you lol). But if he tries ANYTHING ELSE:

    --regular throw, any normal, lariet, whiff spd, green hand, doesn't matter, you'll smack them on your way up, and you'll recover in time for any punishment he wants to dish. AND you just reset your spacing. So it starts all over again.

    Once you get gief below half health they will stop mashing SPD so much and start actually blocking. This is especially true if you have way more energy than him. This is because they know they only have to hit you a couple of times, so they have to slow down and THINK. This is your chance to land Karakusa. They are tired of getting poked all fucking day long. Its like fighting Chun li or something. Why the fuck is she just standing at max range and punishing my attempts to get in? That's Makoto! She's supposed to be trying to get in on me. That what they're saying. They're trying to find something that will work. You can either wait it out or rush his ass down. Up to you. Also depends on the gief's confidence. But pretty much at this point he becomes Guile with no specials because he's scared. So Play smart and you should get the W.

    I would say don't use Hayate too much. Use EX Oroshi a lot. Use EX Hayate to punish full screen mashing (like random lariats across the screen). Watch for Fuki opportunities when you're on your back. They don't always jump perfectly, and they almost always try to splash or use the knees > EX German Suplex. Learn the match up. Know what works and what doesnt'.

    additional discussion between Mossad and GuroPrimo can be found here:
    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/makoto-strategy-and-match-ups.98735/page-39


  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Fuerte without EX, try to get a KD. Then use the proper wake up game. Safe jumps, meaties ETC. jump back HP anytime he tries to run and splash/throw you. DO NOT focus his slide. Maks focus doesn't hit him, and if you hold it too long he can throw you. I just block slides and do IAT. Learn to FA Dash out of splash. Not backdash, you can FA hold, dash grab or dash sweep his recovery.

    Once you get Fuerte to the corner, or once he has EX, start throwing his wakeup. Normal throw beats or avoids ALL of his options other than Ultra 2. You even recover in time to back jump attack, cMP, Hayate or dash Karakusa or whatever. Also use U2 in this matchup. He hates pressure, so on wakeup they will backdash or EX Dash a lot. Oroshi beats EX Dash, but you will be vulnerable if he does normal backdash or mash ultra. So I still think that throwing on wakeup is the best option. Once he's tired of getting thrown, or you've hit an EX Backdash or regular backdash off of wakeup, he will stop it, and you can continue the normal Makoto Gameplan.

    Even though I advised U2 here, I only use it on predictable fuertes and to punish obvious loops. But I don't use very much EX against him so I also like super>ultra1. One buffered cMP and 3/4 of his life is gone. All this at the expense of decreased mobility and escape options.
    Ultra of Choice- U1: Largely for punishment and ease of use. This is a slugfest; both characters are most effective at point blank range, so you'll need some added versatility to that end. The viability of EX karakusa adds to this.
    Offensive Options-
    Punishment (All on block):
    All jet uppers, obviously.
    MP Machinegun Blow (-3): Not truly punishable. Kara throw will win if he blocks or
    tries to poke, but Dudley has several other options to beat throws. Not reccomended.
    FP Machinegun Blow (-5): kara throw, cr.lk, cr.lp, or st.lp, just frame punish with st.mp
    EX Machinegun Blow (-8): Anything. st.fp, cr.fp, or U1 preferred.
    MK/HK Short Swing Blow (-4): Just-frame punish with first frame cancelled kara throw, can leave you out of range for cr.lk. In my experience, not worth the risk.
    EX Short Swing Blow (-5): See FP Machinegun Blow
    st.fp (point blank) (-4): Throw
    cr.hk (-8): Usually pushes you too far back for cr.fp. cr.mp preferred.
    cr.mp xx lk duck (-?):
    Post FP Hayate -
    It's possible to get 2 st.mp's or st.lp -> st.mp on him after a fp hayate. The latter is preferred, as, if just framed, it will stuff his 3 frame jab.
    EX kara-kara must be cancelled by the 4th frame to beat his jab.
    General-
    Karakusa -> FFSS works on him
    cr.lp -> st.lp -> st.mp -> st.mp works at point blank range.
    Lvl 2/3 focus -> recover -> fuki does NOT work.
    Lvl 2/3 focus -> lvl 1 focus -> dash under does not work. However, Lvl 2/3 focus -> lvl 1 focus -> dash -> f.lk -> dash under does
    In the corner, EX Hayate -> lp hayate works. EX Hayate -> dash under does not.
    On his wakeup at point blank, vertical jump -> delayed IAT will move you over EX JU if done fairly high, setting you up for punishment. This is also a good way to bait anti-airs, although HK Tsurugi is preferred, as the height necessary to stuff his st.mk leaves you in a very tight position to combo after MK Tsurugi.
    As always, st.mp, st.mk, and cr.mp are your best ranged pokes. St.mp will stuff anything except st.fp/f.fp, which are focus fodder. DO NOT OS mp/ex hayate unless he?s out of range to block the poke: all blocked hayates are punishable by st.hk xx whatever. Just HC and continue your mixup.
    His three frame cr.lp makes tick kara-throw setups difficult, and requires your frame trap setups to be tighter. Start a counter hit setup with st.lp or st.mp (Both +2 on block) and follow up with st.mp, st.fp xx HC (on CH, fairly easy to follow up with -> st.mp xx mp/ex hayate), or IAT for the best results.
    Dudley is fairly weak to meaties on wakeup. EX JU, U1, and U2 are his only reversal options with hit invincibility, and his back dash can be OS'ed. Be aware that they?ll always have a finger on that trigger, though; he's desperate to get back on the offensive.
    Defensive Options -
    Anti-Airs:
    His go-to jump-in is j.rh, a flying elbow with a hit box that could stuff a ground-to-air missile. st.mp is not recommended.
    st.mk - For deep jumpins. This is meant to tag him at the torso or below. This is also effective for beating his vertical jumps, once he gets scared of EX karakusa.
    st.fp - For shallow jumpins. This is best used once the Dudley gets wise to st.mk and begins jumping in farther away to catch it. Meant to tag him right around the elbow.
    And of course, mp fuki will beat most anything if you're a damn robot.
    General:
    Whiff punish st.fp/f.fp with st.mk xx mp/ex hayate. This is his primary footsie tool, it's important to shut it down early. Bait this out with a st.lp/st.lk/etc. when you?re just outside of range of it, and tag him on the backswing. You can also dash underneath st.fp/f.fp after it has already spent its active frames, but this does not provide a legit punish. However, it does gives you frame status/positioning for EX Karakusa to grab him out of any pokes he tries to follow up with. Just don?t get predictable.
    EX Karakusa is perfectly viable in this match. Dudley's goal is to get inside and start slinging his arms around. His effective range is piss poor outside of cr.mp (which leaves him few combo options far away, and if cancelled into lk duck, is punishable), cr.mk, and cr.rh (both slow, and the latter is punishable on block). Many of his close attacks leave him at frame advantage on block, but considering EX Karakusa has armor from frame one, this is largely irrelevant. Judicious usage of it can turn a losing match around. Of course, be wary if he?s throw happy or vertical jumping.
    Consider stand teching in this match. If he?s on top of you, he?ll most likely be looking for a f.mk or overhead (both of which are very versatile and lead to huge damage). However, they both suffer from long startup (according to Eventhubs frame data, 15 and 19 frames respectively). Slow, deliberate stand teching will grab him out of either 8 times out of 10, and will keep you generally safe from tick throw setups. Be aware of his low options too, however: he can still get fat combo damage off of cr.lk, and a free knockdown off cr.mk/cr.hk. A smart Dudley will also use his st.lk -> st.mk target combo to catch stand teching, which leaves him at +4 on hit, enough for st.rh xx whatever (typically rectified by slowing down your tech OS). This will be an instance where you?ll have to read the player a bit better.
    Do not be afraid of the overhead on your wakeup, just be aware of it. By blocking high on wakeup, you?re opening yourself up to meaty cr.lk/cr.mk/cr.hk, all which present problems of their own. 19 frames is hard to react to, but not impossible. Watch for him to cock his arm back and THEN block high. This sounds contradictory to the previous paragraph, but remember; the only time he can?t be thrown out of his overhead is when he meaty?s it, either on your wakeup or after a reset.
    Watch for resets out of focus attacks. Focus Crumple -> wait -> whatever xx ducking can put him on either side of you depending on the strength of ducking.
    Watch for him to purposely drop combos for throw setups. Whatever -> st.rh xx lk duck -> throw is a popular one. This allows him to get a knockdown with only slightly less damage off a hit confirm for no meter. Watch for the duck, then tech the throw. IAT is also a relatively safe bet if you?re quick on the draw. Watch for this in block strings, too.
    There?s no reason to backdash on his wakeup unless he has 3 bars to FADC EX JU. EX JU, U1, and U2 are the only moves with hit invincibility. U1 and U2 will also catch back dashes, so be aware of that.
    Focusing is generally a good option in this matchup, great for catching st.fp and f.fp, his strongest ranged attacks, as well as the occasional ranged cr.mk or cr.rh. However, ducking straight is a decent armor breaking move, so be careful. He can also bait a whiff with st.rh xx short swing blow, although this is rare and requires him to be fairly close anyways.
    Safe Jumps-
    From RobotMakoto?s safe jump data:
    ?EX Oroshi, backdash, jump attack is reversal safe when he doesn?t have meter?
    ?EX Oroshi, backdash, empty jump is reversal safe (even with meter). Good for baiting.?
    ?You can also EX Oroshi, s.HK, neutral jump MK as a safe jump. Works in the corner. Also, if Dudley isn't in the corner, he can get out of this specific setup with Short Swing Blow, any version, for a little bit of chip damage on you. Technically you could Ultra that, on reaction ...?
    Option Selects
    EX Oroshi, Backdash, jump attack OS with f.lk: Resets him out of back dash, allows you to dash under. OS cr.fp does not seem to have the range.
    EX Oroshi, forward dash, vertical jump attack, cr.lk OS with cr.fp: Sweeps him out of backdash. Generally seems to work with any point blank wake up pressure as well.
    Reverse Matchup Information ?
    f.mk -> st.mp -> st.hk works on Makoto. It?s easy and hits like a truck. In this matchup, mostly used for focus crumple combos.
    All hayates are punishable with hk xx whatever.
    Focus bait, naturally.
    Problem Solving- Generally covered in Defense.

    Ultra of Choice-Ultra 1. Don't even think about using ultra 2. Cammy will be in your face all day if you let her. No need to chase her down.

    Offensive Opions- This fight is like... a cobra fighting a mongoose. makoto is the cobra... with blazing speed, great grappling ability, and must be very sneaky to win this one. Yeah if she gets her hands on Cammy, cammy is in for a world of her. Cammy is the mongoose. She also has blazing speed, way more pressure tools, good invincible moves, and some really nice GTFO moves. How do you mount an offense? Its not easy. It is widely known that Cammy is our cryptonite. She has all of the necessary options to stuff all of our options at any given time... and you have to weather the storm to win. honestly, your best offense is a great defense. You MUST learn to block her onslaught. You MUST be diciplined enough to late tech, not crouch tech (lest you eat TKCS, cHP, cMK, 2hit HKSA. Yes it hits Mak and only Mak 2 times for max damage). You MUST wait for an opening. You cannot just dash in head first to try to beat her up. being smart about this matchup is the only way to win. There are a couple of tools you need, and they are ALL on defense.

    Defensive Options -cMK is your best friend in this match. It will help stuff the CS and SA from afar. You will be doing a lot of counter attacking (not necessarily counter hits) in ths match. so be prepared to punish Cammy for everything she does wrong. That's right, DO NOT mount an offense on a good Cammy. Solidify your defense, and make sure she stays at arms length. Frustrate her and make her make a mistake. Punish blocked Canon spikes with Yamase.
    Per Boom Cube:
    You can also punish a blocked cannon spike with dash forward -> FFSS if you're confident in your execution. FFSS xx EX Hayate/Oroshi will bring her one good mixup away from stunned. Plus, the corner combo works on her, so the wall carry with EX Hayate is great.

    Punish blocked spiral arrows with LK Karakusa. you've got to read her more than anything, and really focus to try to beat her. There's no reason to dash at cammy at all if her back is not on the ground. No reason to focus at all, especially if she has U1. She won't be jumping over you too much... unless its a meaty cross up, so learn to block those, and you can pretty much skip trying to fukiage. Fukiage will get you killed in this match. (that's my opinion. However its come to my attention that (per Robot Makoto) Fuki isn't so bad if shes jumping toward you normally. I know it beats a high CS, but I always figure if she's moving forward on me I need to get out and get back in on my own terms...).One of the best things you can do while your'e waiting for an opening is see if they use a predictable block string. Block the first hit and try to EX Kara through maybe the second or third hit. Any more than that and you'll whiff the kara due to push back. I know this is a tough match... almost as dificult as rufus. Will need more research and I'll update if i find anything. She's just so fucking hard... (tears...)

    Safe Jumps- After EX Oroshi, Dash back, Whiff Jumping attack forward (Ty Robot Makoto) is Cannon Spike Bait. Punish with Yamase.

    Here's Zakbg showing us all how having rock solid fundamentals are key to winning, especially against Cammy. Great defense matched with well-practiced execution.

    Oh yes, much. A few tips:

    - Guy is a frame trapping beast, mainly with close s.MK, c.HP, and his newly 3-framed c.LK. Pressing buttons can get you killed as fast as when fighting Cody or Dudley. His throws lead to good setups, but unless you get put into the corner it's not going to 50-50 wreck you. Once Guy is in, it's not uncommon to be frame trapped from one end of the screen to the other corner.

    - LP Fukiage owns all of Guy's aerial attempts unless it's a safe jump. If he surprise attacks you with a flip cancel during a string, you can c.MK on reaction to the elbow/flip. The only thing to watch out for is a fake-out elbow to fool you into using Fukiage while he lands directly in front, prime for punishing. This is a footsie battle, no doubt about that: a good Guy can make jumping directly at him very painful with his TK air grab, or at the least just use c.MP, so jumping is out. His focus is good, try not to Tsurugi too much to get in.

    - With proper Run Stop pressure, you will lose or trade every time he uses c.LK if you crouch tech. s.HK if the answer, but he can beat that with the right moves. Generally the farther out he pushes you, the more legit s.HK is.

    - His c.HK beats literally any poke of yours unless you're close enough that his startup of moving forward hits Makoto's c.MP. s.HK is the only thing that CAN beat it, but that's risky. Watch out for that slide, even top players use and abuse it due to its priority. How much he uses it directly determines your footsie game plan. Random focuses and neutral jumps to destroy it can be risky, use only as needed.

    - Guy's Run into guerrilla tactics are weak but a guessing game. c.MK and LP Fukiage beat the overhead easily. Nothing really beats the Run Slide, but it's death on block - just watch out, much like Hakan, Run Slide FADC is a good way in from mid to full screen. Generally hold down-back, and try to react specifically to the overhead.

    - His pokes are okay in the form of c.MP and s.MK, but Makoto wins the poke war with well-spaced c.MP and in general s.MP. Just watch out for FAs and c.HK and he has little.

    - LP and MP Hozanto are 100% safe. The others can be punished with c.LK xx EX Hayate.

    - His Run Slide sets up an easy safe jump. EX Karakusa it if you see him go for that, but watch out for shit like empty jump U2 or empty jump Tatsu.

    - His wake-up is garbage except for a good backdash and EX Tatsu, which can't be FADC'd. I don't think there's anything you can do to screw with that on wake-up aside from safe jumping it with a 4-frame safe jump setup. Use c.LP, f+LP+HP to OS Yamase his backdash. If the Guy likes to use the buffed EX Run, Karakusa or MP Oroshi it.

    - EX Karakusa is a bit more legit than normal on your wake-up. His f+MP hits twice now, but it moves him forward such that you can grab it from a mile away. Still risky as hell.

    - Jumping in on his wake-up has extra risk if he has U2. Between his 4-frame EX Tatsu and his 2-frame U2, normal safe jumps can always be beaten. The only way to safe jump him is from a distance, preferably with EX Oroshi, s.HK whiff, j.MK.

    - Scrub Guys seem partial to doing Hozanto or blocked slide into EX Tatsu, and gimmicks into U2. Always be careful of this. Guy is a technical character, without the setups and combo/frame trap knowledge he's nothing - let the scrubs wither and die in their ignorance by killing themselves.


  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Random ex hayates probably aren't a good idea against Vega. He can punish them pretty easily IIRC.
    -Most Vegas like to throw after a blocked cosmic heel. Tsuguri that shit.
    -Dash in after he sticks out cr.mps
    -Jump at him when he doesn't have charge.
    -cr.mk stuffs cosmic heel from certain distances
    -If he's the sort that always does cr.mp after a blocked roll, you can get a counterhit st.hp
    -And of course, he can't use barcelona attack against you at all. Especially if you use U2.

    Oh and
    -make sure to throw out random s. :hk: at the beginning of the matches. He starts getting hit or you trade GREATLY in your favor lol.
    -due to the trajectory of his jump, jb fierce is a good on reaction anti air.
    -try to get a lead and sit on it. vega has no way in on makoto
    -DO NOT dash into those c.:mp: of his.
    -did I mention s.:hk: at max range beats 99.99999% of his ground options?



    Here's one of FAXgimoto demonstrating how useful a well spaced IA Tsurugi is instead of trying to out-poke Vega.

    Try out c.:mk:/s.:mk:. It beats all of his air options. This is a match where you play smart. stay back and build meter, and catch him whenever he makes a mistake. Don't dash too much because of s.:hk:.

    Your pokes beat his pokes out @ max range. So begin the footsie war until he's ready to try to get in. Don not chase him. Treat this like the Zangief matchup. just poke him until he makes a mistake.

    Your main weapons are:

    -c.:mk: - beats almost all (if not all) of his jumping attacks.
    -s.:hk: - beats his s.:hk: and will quicky make him back up.
    -s.:mp: - beats all jaquar tooth (teeth? lol)
    -c.:mp: - use at max range and make sure to buffer MP/EX Hayate
    -nj./jump back :hp: - use to beat his neutral jumps and give him good stun. Jump back is for Tooth punishment

    One good trick to know is that if he does a HK tooth, throw out EX Karakusa after you block. if he does anything except jump, dash back, ultra, or throw will get grabbed. If he does DP after tooth, EX Kara will still grab (first hit of DP is grounded and non-armor break).

    When they start doing fake JT's. get your Kara Hayate out. It will hit him every time.

    Hope this helps.

    Here's how you deal with someone who DOESN'T spam Adon's air options


    Here's another from Tornado Flame. Pay special attention to the second round when TF introduces s.MP to Adon's Jaguar anything.


    Played against another Rog last night. Man i seriously think this is 6-4 Makoto. Seriously. Since f.:lp: stops him from mashing jab during times when you have frame advantage, it really slows him down. I found a couple of things out:

    -Once you have him scared to headbutt on wake up (liberal use of meaty c.:lk: of course :D), Occasional c.:hp:, Dash, s.:lp:(whiff), s.:lk::hk: Whiffakusa works wonders. If he sits there he gets grabbed. TAP gets grabbed. If he mashes jabs/throw he gets grabbed. Loses to backdash and jump (why would he jump on wakeup again? Oh yeah he wouldn't lol) and headbutts if he's feeling lucky. So far, in situation where I felt it was necessary, i've only been headbutted maybe 10% of the time (I spend a lot of time baiting headbutts). REMEMBER this isn't your only option. IAT is good, c.:lk: is better, but its another option at least. A good one at that, and makes you look fantastic especially if you grabe TAP lol.

    -DON'T try any resets in the corner that go into s.:hk: after they reset. It loses to TAP, it takes you too far away to do any type of Karakara or sweep from what I could see. Also it will lose to backdash. S.:lp: is a better choice IMO because it gives you many more options.

    -the combo c.:lp:, s.:lp:, c.:lk: EX Hayate is AWESOME in this matchup. You can even land it after a crossup or even a normal jump in! If he budges he gets smacked!

    -I'm not sure if my eyes decieved me but I did vryu's c.:hp:, backdash, EX Hayate a bunch of times and it wrecked pretty much anything he did but backdash or block. I use U1 in this match, and Makoto is usually -4 on block with EX Hayate, but if done meaty, she's at 0~+1. I usually don't get it exactly perfect, so i always assume i'm at 0 frames which is really good. So U1 is good if he does anything but block here U1 will beat it. If you have no u1, f.:lp: will beat any non EX move except heabutt (I think, but i've traded but of course its not in your favor, it may depend on that 0~1 frame I was talking about...) as well as NORMAL throw. Normal throw is awesome here because it is soooo unexpected and he's blocking. If he gets hit with the EX Hayate on wakeup then another EX Hayate will send him flying to the corner and his death.

    I don't know why but karakusa is too good in this match. I think we are so afraid of Rog's jabs that we wait to do karakusa. I think that, yes, we have to respect them, but karakusa snatches him out of damn near anything. I will explore this more and see what I can find.
    You really need to be patient. This is a match where basic play really pays off. If you just run in head first you're going to get beat badly. Remember: Guile is probably the best "defensive" character in the game. And Makoto, well lets just say she's not "top tier" defensively lol.
    Therefore you have to wait for opportunities to open him up. Most of these opportunities will result from him throwing a sonic boom at you from less than half screen. Focus dash EX Kara is great for getting inside, because his only real option is a normal (which Kara will beat). I say that because:

    -if he back dashes he loses his charge
    -if he jumps he loses his charge
    -if he walks forward he loses his charge
    -if he he just released a charge so it takes time to charge again
    From Lost Fragment:
    Axe kick makes flash kick whiff on wakeup, so just concentrate on getting his back on the ground. Easier said than done, I know, but once you get in on him he's fucked and all it takes is one mistake.

    Obvious option is to try to hit you out of a dash, or AA your jump over the SB. Its a little weird at first, but its much easier than in super because of her faster dash, and the range on EX Kara.

    Another good thing you can do is late tsurugi over SBs. They will usually try to s./c. HP your jump in since there's no time for Flash Kick, and HK Tsurugi usually beats both, and sometimes trades with c.:hp: in your favor. Its not as easy as hitting Ryu since he recovers faster, but its still doable.

    You're also going to want to cross up EVERY wakeup attempt. I've done EX Oroshi, Dash, f.:hk: (hold) to cross, then forward jump to cross again. They will not be able to do any charge moves besides Flash kick. Just block and get ready for a late tech. don't attack because HE WILL DO FLASH KICK lol. Dont know why, they always do it. Well not always, but enough to take 300 damage often enough to get beat. At least AFAIK. Be careful with this setup though, some Flash Kicks hit you while some don't. I dont' know if its my timing or what. But... whatever. either way, you're going to want to cross him up every single time you knock him down. This severely limits his game. By cross up i dont' mean jump, either. I mean some form of f.:hk: (hold).

    Ultra 2 means guile doesn't want to throw SBs. But U1 means guile fears EX Kara more on your wakeup (some guiles will get close) so choose your weapon wisely.


  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    I find cr.mp to be a good poke vs her in general. St.hk/cr.mk/St.lk is the trinity of Sakura's normals. Be careful outside her cr.mk range, she can buffer cr.mk xx DP to counter your pokes or when you walk into cr.mk into a knockdown and possible 300-400 damage if Sakura has 2 bars and the execution to do HP DP fadc > st.hp > BnB

    Her cr.hp is unbelievably easy to empty jump at a certain range. If she's standing, don't jump directly on her, but empty jump in front of her or over her and punish the whiff with cr.lk xx ex hayate. Sakura's always attempt to cr.hp

    Like Makoto, Sakura doesn't have a good answer to pressure, her fastest reversal is 12f (although it's fully invincible on startup), it's easy to bait by using jab pressure and neutral jumping. Sakura is very free on wakeup.

    Sakura can do this matchup in 2 ways, rushdown Makoto hard or zone out Makoto. Be careful of jumping over her fireball as she can lp dp mp dp AA if she recovers after the fireball in time for the jump. If you have the lifelead, you can lame out a bit and let Sakura kill herself getting in. Sakura can't handle lame well at all.

    You have to be on point with your blocking/teching as Sakura has deadly frame traps, combined with her above average walkspeed. Her frame traps/tick throws are very dangerous, especially as she has an ambiguous jump-in, (j.hk/hp fake crossup, j.mk/lk cross up, empty jump cr.lk, empty jump throw etc.) and when she gets that CH cl.hp, you're gonna eat a lot of damage.

    When stuck in the corner with Sakura, after otoshi x 2 lvl 3 meaty hadoken, just block it, there's nothing Makoto can do except maybe wakeup U2 to escape.

    Be careful with ex karakusa on wakeup, Sakura's meaty tatsu will beat it, although ex oroshi will beat it. Don't be reckless with tsurgi as Sakura can U2 this if she reads it. (there might be an OS for this, I'll look into it)

    I'm not sure whether U1 or U2 is better here, maybe U2 as Sakura has a terribly slow fireball and you do not want to be in the corner with Sakura. But U1 has that comeback factor, I suppose it's personal preference here.

    This matchup is basically first to hit the other wins. This matchup is slightly in Makoto's favour imo. Her ways of opening up the opponent is better than Sakura's.
    From a discussion

    -focus attack the sonic boom, then dash once you see the side where Seth is.

    -I think one of the main things people need to understand vs Seth, is that he DOESNT have a safe way to get in, he always has to take risks to do so. So he will try to do small gimmicks like wall jump or random divekicks. If you can punish those you've done half of the job.

    -This is very true. Kara EX Fukiage eats his breakfast. So no jump shenanigans. If he stays on the ground he can only use Boom and the long arms. But if you block the long arms, you can hit him with EX Hayate CH, so 2 dashes later (4 if he doesn't tech) and he's in the corner against MAKOTO, a girl who can take 400 life per mistake. Normally it wouldnt' be a big deal but for seth that's twice lmao. Oh and U2? What can he do once you have u2? You can U2 booms when they're halfway across the screen hahahaha. Long arms? Please. jump? done son. like what options does he have once you have U2? anyone?

    -Also, Makoto dominates the mid range vs Seth, thanks to her amazing normals, Seth has either 2 options: back off/teleport back (he corners himself) or try to apply pressure by taking a big gamble.

    Still Seth's mixup game is REALLY scary and very effective, the FA backdash Os works well vs him, but dont abuse because he has a command grab. I'd say this is prob like a 5-5 or 5.5 - 4.5 in mak's favor, Makoto can kill seth in 3 combos, but Seth can have her guessing the whole round if he wants, but he needs more hits to kill her. If mak is aware of all her options vs Seth id say she has the advantage.
    From a discussion
    -When Abel has no meter and does a (blocked) step kick/ fwd + MK, mash cr.lp. There's nothing he can do to beat that, only his EX command grab is hit-invincible, at the most you will eat a regular throw which is fine. Your normals are better than his all day, he cant jump at you; makoto can always AA him.

    I remember Air (the ryu player) said something very true "always do something vs Abel" when put in mixups situations, never stay still, make him doubt.

    -I've been getting f+MK punished by Abel against whiffed normals a bit. Not every time by any means, but roughly 30% of the time, enough to make me consider discussing this.

    Pretty much all of Makoto's mid-height pokes beat Abel's s.LK and f+MK, the issue is f+MK is essentially a 7 frame Rekka that can if you're unlucky turn Makoto's buffer pokes into a 300 damage combo against her, into Abel's oki. I think I'm switching to s.LP xx EX Hayate as my buffer poke of choice against him. I think I need to use this normal more in general outside of AAs and chains, there's a fantastic hit-box on the bugger.

    Anything else in the footsie battle? I've been using c.HK ever since I saw Mok11bk spam that shit, and it actually is a great footsie tool due to Abel's big-ass hit-box and low-priority pokes.

    On a side note, I think the s.LK, s.MK TC buff in 2012 will be a pretty big buff in terms of dealing with Rekka pressure, much like how TC is more consistent than other pokes against the twins' dive kicks.
    Per V-Ryu
    APPROACH:
    Gouki's main gameplay relies on his vortex (wakeup mixup game). It's a real pain when Makoto is hard-knocked down. So, you'll want to avoid to be sweeped/thrown as much as possible.
    Fortunatly, thanks to Gouki's low life/stun, you can often reverse a round very quickly. She can punish his teleport on reaction too, which really annoys him.
    In this matchup, Makoto's goal is to get close without be knocked down and staying out of standing HK range (which hits Makoto twice, even crouching.

    ULTRA CHOICE:
    Ultra1 isn't very effective First, it's very difficult to land a karakusa on Gouki. Second, you cannot use it as anti-air because of dive kick/air fireball. You must rely on tsurugi, and that's not optimal.
    Ultra2 is better. You can escape from corner (be careful, ultra1 will grab you), can punish palm OS sweep (except if he cancel his sweep into ultra), punish his teleport on reaction and punish non-air fireball.

    FOOTSIES:
    Makoto's stHK is a good tool to counter his very annoying far stHK. Don't use crHP a lot, because you'll get sweep if Gouki guards it. Use f+MP to get close. Using a dash is risky, because of his crMK OS tatsu.

    OPTION SELECTS:
    Every OS must finish with crHP. That's the only way to beat backdash AND react with an EX hayate if he teleports instead of backdash.
    Don't forget that you cannot safe jump his shoryuken and his ultra1.

    OFFENSE:
    You can use EX hayate to go under air fireball and hit him (combo with another EX hayate, or kara EX fukiage near corner). Don't do any hayate in guard, or you'll get easily punish. However, You can use it on purpose to bait a reversal shoryuken (FA backdash) or a 3 frames punish (FAlvl1 counter hit).
    When you're at mid-range, your goal is to close distance very quickly. In fact, you'll want to be out of far stHK range and close the gap as fast as possible. That's the most difficult, because of far stHK, crMK and hadoken. HK tsurugi is your friend, because it covers 2 of these 3 options (you'll get hit by far stHK).
    Once you're on him, don't let him go. Use anything you can to avoid random sweep and random shoryuken (use Tsurugi on his wakeup to do it).
    At the moment he tries to flee, just watch where he goes and use EX hayate to punish and stay close.

    DEFENSE:

    Avoiding far stHK:
    During footsies, don't be shy to use "random" stHK. It has LOT of active time, and its extended hitbox will punish Gouki's far stHK. It will make crMK whiff too.

    Corner fake crossup:
    Lot of Gouki now use the jump LK trick, which makes him land forward. Sadly for him, to use this setup, he's vulnerable to fukiage. So, if you see him using LP shoryuken after a tatsumaki in corner, you will know that your fukiage will be any jump attempt.

    About his vortex:
    Because Fukiage is very good as anti-crossup / demon flip dive kick, he will mainly use demonflip throw / palm OS sweep mixup. This simple variation really annoys Makoto's wakeup options because:
    1) Throw beats EX oroshi and EX karakusa
    2) Palm OS Sweep beats EX oroshi, EX karakusa, jump, backdash

    You notice that you only have 2 options here:
    1) Backdash, jump
    2) Guard

    Note that if you think he will use throw, don't backjump or backdash. Just easy MK tsurugi on wakeup. It turns demonflip throw risk&reward in Makoto's favour.
    The second thing you can use it ultra2. It will punish both options, but lose if:
    1) Gouki cancel his sweep with ultra1
    2) Gouki doesn't OS sweep
    So be careful.

    The other annoying thing is the unblockable, working on Makoto. The best thing you can do are using ultra2 to escape. But be careful at his ultra1 which will catch you. The other thing is FA-delay forward dash. That sometimes works if Gouki isn't timing perfect on his combo.

    MISC NOTES:
    Thanks to Makoto hard knock down, it's easy to switch side. When you do it very late (f+HK hold, tsurugi, etc), it screws Gouki's teleport input, and makes him do a shakunetsu. Use it to your advantage
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Hello guys. I would have posted these findings sooner, but my account (same name) became a guest due to inactivity (couldn't remember pw :( ). Anyhow, I guess somewhere in the middle of Super, my net went out and I decided to hit the lab with Makoto for a couple hours. I found crossup/unblockable Tsurugi setups with Mak against every character, some being very consistent, some a bit trickier, atop a handful of other stuff.

    Now, before I post them, some of them are probably known due to how basic some of them are, and I did steal the empty j.hp setup from Shiro as the premise for my lab-hitting, but the rest I grinded out against each character. If some of them are known, I apologize and hope the more obscure or unknown one's make up for it.

    Abel:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint (with HK) > walk forward > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Adon:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi

    Akuma:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi

    Balrog:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate > LK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Bison:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Blanka:
    Backthrow > Dash > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi

    Cammy:
    Backthrow > dash > s.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi

    Chun Li:
    Backthrow > dash > LP Hayate Feint (with HK) > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi

    Cody:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Dan:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Dee Jay:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Dhalsim:
    Backthrow > dash > s.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Dudley:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)

    El Fuerte:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Fei Long:
    Backthrow > dash > s.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi

    Gen:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Gief:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Gouken:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate > LK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Guile:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lp s.hk/s.mk > MK Tsurugi (Hard to make unblockable)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Guy:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > MK Tsurugi Lower To The Ground (crouching)
    Backthrow > F+MP F+LK (jump forward slight pause) MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Hakan:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > Dash > c.lk > MK Tsurugi

    Honda:
    Backthrow > s.mp c.lp > MK tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > s.mp > LP Hayate Feint > c.lp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > s.hk > s.lp/c.lk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp s.lp > MK Tsurugi (might be c.lp on the first lp)

    Ibuki:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > MK Tsurugi Lower To The Ground
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi

    Juri:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Ken:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Makoto:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > MK Tsurugi Lower To The Ground
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Rose:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi

    Rufus:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > MK Tsurugi Higher Above the Ground
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > c.mk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Ryu:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > S.HK > LK Tsurugi (can reverse)
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Sagat:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > MK Tsurugi Higher Above the Ground
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi high/late in the jump arc

    Sakura:
    Backthrow > dash > s.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi

    Seth:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable, even with LK Tsurugi)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi high/late in the jump arc (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.mk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    T Hawk:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi high/late in the jump arc
    Backthrow > s.lp s.lp s.lk > MK Tsurugi

    Vega:
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.lp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.mk > MK Tsurugi

    Viper:
    Empty Crossup Fierce > Jump Forward MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+LK > c.mk > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint > s.mk > MK Tsurugi

    EDIT: Vryu demonstration of cross-ups



    One more thing. I saw a pseudo safe oroshi setup posted here to beat out LP DPs, back in Super. Well, needless to say, what it did to LP DP inspired me to find a setup that worked on all DPs. It still works, despite the backdash buff. It wasn't recorded with the best of cameras, but I've since got a Capcard and can rerecord it and the unblockables if anything is too hard to make out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRlUn3Va0rw

    I just uploaded a few examples for you:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZHVzhgbpHM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40fguCVeLCQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQYu_uvE-fQ

    Edit:

    Also, the only reason I say LP Hayate Feint is because I just wanted to document everything how I did it at the moment, to make sure everything was exact. In most of my setups, I just hold HK post throw, and do a quick LP hayate feint for ease.
    Per Mossad Man
    Now here's what you need.

    -Need a character that you can land an unblockable/cross up MK Tsurugi on. 9 times out of 10 this will come from a back throw because of the distance you need to be at.

    -Need a character that you can land an unblockable/cross up MK Tsurugi on after an EX Oroshi. This is the most important part. We really need to ramp up this list because that's whats going to determine the loop.

    Ok so for the first loop i tried on Balrog. Here are the inputs:

    note-(w) = whiff

    Backthrow, s.MP(w), s.lp(w), MK Tsurugi (Unblockable?/Cross-up). s.HP EX Oroshi (3 hits)

    Then hold up forward while the Oroshi is hitting, and:

    Forward j.MP(w) (to cross), forward jump MK Tsurugi, s.MP, EX oroshi.

    You can repeat this with a few changes, over and over again. The only thing that changes is, due to the distance that you may get pushed back from the normal, its better to use LK Tsurugi than MK, but as a rule, MK Tsurugi beats every option he has, and is very difficult to block (I couldnt' block it, but i think its possible with slightly imperfect timing.....)

    The bold part of this works on Akuma, Ryu, Ken, Gen, Dan, Juri, Bison, Guile, Balrog, and Rose per vryu's video, but i believe using LK Tsurugi and/or other setups we can get the whole cast.

    For instance, even though IMO Dudley is the hardest to cross up with Tsurugi, we did find a somewhat reliable setup in:

    EX Oroshi, f.MP, Forward jump MK Tsurugi (crossup)

    and

    EX Oroshi, Forward jump, s.LK, LK Tsurugi (crossup)

    But we are still working on it.

    Here is some footage of me attempting to loop Balrog.



  • HitomiHitomi Rindoukan Blue Belt Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Reserved, just in case.
    Formerly Robot Makoto
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    TSURUGI CROSS UPS REFINED
    New Backthrow Setups:
    (Important Note: To make things easier for all Makoto players, I discovered that you don't ALWAYS have to do hayate feint. In fact, in almost all setups, you can replace hayate feint with a s.lp or a c.lp, or even a s.mp. This makes things SO MUCH EASIER for players that have problems with hayate feints on the fly. An example of a popular setup would be: backthrow > s.lp > c.mk > MK tsurugi instead of backthrow > hayate feint > c.mk > mk tsurugi)
    Abel:
    Backthrow > Dash > s.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lp > s.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Adon:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi (replace c.lp w s.lp or hayate feint if you want)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Akuma:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurug
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable) (can be reversed)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Instant LK Tsurugi > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lp > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > f+mp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.mp > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Balrog:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick) (crouch)

    Bison:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.mp > HK tsurugi

    Blanka:
    Backthrow > s.mp > dash > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lp > f+lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > f+lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > c.lk > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (quick)
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick)

    Cammy:
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MK > S.LP > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick)

    Chun Li:
    Backthrow > dash dash dash > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi (MEATY)
    Backthrow > s.mp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Cody:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > s.lk-s.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Dan:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Dee Jay:
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (crouch)
    Backthrow > f+hp > HK Tsurugi (easy)
    Backthrow > Walk Back > HK Tsurugi (aim it late)

    Dhalsim:
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MK > S.LP > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.mp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick)

    Dudley:
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi (unblockable)
    Backthrow > hayate feint > c.mk > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    El Fuerte:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > hk tsurugi (in between quick and regular)
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi

    Evil Ryu:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Instant LK Tsurugi > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lp > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > f+mp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.mp > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Fei Long:
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MK > S.LP > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Gen:
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Gief:
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > c.mp > MK Tsurugi (high)
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick) (crouch)

    Gouken:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi (unblockable)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick) (Crouch)

    Guile:
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MK > Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (crouch)
    Backthrow > c.hk > Late HK Tsurugi (Unblockable) (Can't be reversed)

    Guy:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi (unblockable)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (Unblockable)

    Hakan:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MP > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (sorta late)

    Honda:
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi (MEATY)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Ibuki:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi (MEATY)
    Backthrow > s.mk > s.lp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable) (super easy)
    Backthrow > S.MP > Slight Delay LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.lk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (quick) (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick) (unblockable)

    Juri:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (Unblockable) (between quick and regular)

    Ken:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Instant LK Tsurugi > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lp > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > f+mp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.mp > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Makoto:
    Backthrow > S.MP > S.LP > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > S.MP > Slight Delay LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.lk > c.lk > mk tsurugi (unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.lk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (quick) (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick)

    Oni:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Instant LK Tsurugi > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lp > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > f+mp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.mp > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Rose:
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > f+lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick) (crouch)
    Backthrow > c.hk > Late HK Tsurugi

    Rufus:
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi (MEATY)
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.hk > Late HK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > S.MP > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (sorta late)

    Ryu:
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable) * (forgot what the * was for)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.mk > hayate feint > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > F+Instant LK Tsurugi > LK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lp > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > f+mp > s.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.mp > c.mk > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Sagat:
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lp > s.lk > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (crouch)
    Backthrow > c.hk > j.hp (meaty)

    Sakura:
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.lp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi (MEATY)
    Backthrow > S.MK > S.LP > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.mp > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick) (unblockable)

    Seth:
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lp > s.lk > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi (unblockable)

    T Hawk:
    Backthrow > s.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi (unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi (meaty)
    Backthrow > c.hk > j.hp

    Vega:
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > s.lk > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Viper:
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (really quick) > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > s.hp > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > S.MP > LP Hayate Feint > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > Hayate Feint > c.lk > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > c.hk > HK Tsurugi

    Yang:
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint (or s/c.lp) > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MK > S.LP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MP > S.LP > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick)

    Yun:
    Backthrow > Dash > S.MK > MK Tsurugi*
    Backthrow > LP Hayate Feint (or s/c.lp) > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    Backthrow > Neutral LK Tsurugi (quick) > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MK > S.LP > MK Tsurugi
    Backthrow > S.MP > S.LP > MK Tsurugi (Unblockable)
    Backthrow > Dash > S.LK > HK Tsurugi (quick)

    Late Tsurugi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaG2lkTYuNM
    Neutral LK Tsurugi Whiff Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC9kwYZfqtc
    MK Tsurugi Setup Without Feint C.MK (proof): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0i3PDcud9k
    Vortex Example on Juri: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O15pbogG5U
    Vortex Example on Juri 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqjSeQkjYmM
    Vortex Example on Fei Long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC83H7drY-s (he would have been stunned a long time ago)
    Vortex Example on Blanka: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utvWtN7REDc
    Vortex Example on Blanka 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agOXnlLZigY
    Vortex Example on Bison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oudzBMCTcs
    First Time Using It In A Match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3G21Z1Kh5U
  • DivemanDiveman Loli-zoning Joined: Posts: 2,656
    Option selects ans safe jumps/okizeme setups vs each char as well would help
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    OAR:
    Crossup Tsurugi After EX Oroshi:

    (Important Note: A lot of these setups have f+mp > c.mp as the documented setup. However, this usually only applies after a karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi. Well, a lot of your ex oroshis may come off of a crossup tsurugi, and to fix this problem, simply replace f+mp with f+lk. It works everytime. So, one more time: after a backthrow crossup tsurugi setup, replace f+mp with f+lk in c.mp setups. Also, some setups will note out 'tested off of setup'. Don't worry, that's just notes pointed out for odd looking setups. ALL Dash setups work after any ex oroshi)
    Abel:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lk > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > c.mp > mk tsurugi

    Adon:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi

    Akuma:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+hp > dash > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late

    Balrog:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lk > mk tsurugi

    Bison:
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+hp > dash > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late
    ex oroshi > dash > f+mp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi

    Blanka:
    ex oroshi > mp fukiage > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > f+mp > MK Tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > slight pause > MK Tsurugi (meaty)
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late
    ex oroshi > dash > f+mp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi

    Cammy:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > lk tsurugi late (easier)
    ex oroshi > dash > c.mp > mk tsurugi (works after setups into ex oroshi)
    ex oroshi > dash > c.hp > mk tsurugi

    Chun Li:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > s.lk > c.hk > late lk tsurugi (only works off of close oroshi)
    ex oroshi > neutral whiff mk tsurugi > late mk tsurugi (tested off of setup and worked)
    ex oroshi > dash > f+mp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi

    Cody:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi

    Dan:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi

    Dee Jay:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lk > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > dash > S.MP > mk tsurugi

    Dhalsim:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > empty xu hk > mk tsurugi (works off of setups into ex oroshi only)
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late
    ex oroshi > dash > c.hp > mk tsurugi

    Dudley:
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > c.mp > mk tsurugi

    El Fuerte:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late (works off setups)
    ex oroshi > dash > c.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi (tested off of setup)

    Evil Ryu:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late

    Fei Long:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late
    ex oroshi > dash > c.hp > mk tsurugi

    Gen:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > dash > S.MP > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > c.mp > mk tsurugi

    Gief:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lk > s.lp > mk tsurugi

    Gouken:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi * (don't remember what this * was for)
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > c.mp > mk tsurugi

    Guile:
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > c.mp > mk tsurugi

    Guy:
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+mp > s.lp > MK Tsurugi

    Hakan:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > dash > S.MP > mk tsurugi

    Honda:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > c.hp > mk tsurugi

    Ibuki:
    ex oroshi > mp fukiage > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > lk tsurugi late (easier)
    ex oroshi > empty jump xu > mk tsurugi (unblockable) (works off of setups)

    Juri:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi

    Ken:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late

    Makoto:
    ex oroshi > mp fukiage > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi (lower than other versions / works off of setups)
    ex oroshi > empty jump xu > mk tsurugi (works off of setups but is strict)

    Oni:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late

    Rose:
    ex oroshi > dash > dash > S.MP > mk tsurugi

    Rufus:
    ex oroshi > f+hp > dash > mk tsurugi

    Ryu:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+mp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > f+hk > mk tsurugi late

    Sagat:
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi (meaty)

    Sakura:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > c.hp > mk tsurugi

    Seth:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lk > s.lp > mk tsurugi

    T Hawk:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lk > s.lp > mk tsurugi

    Vega:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi

    Viper:
    ex oroshi > dash > s.mp > s.lp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lp > s.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > f+lk > c.mp > mk tsurugi

    Yang:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > empty xu hk > mk tsurugi (works off of setups into ex oroshi only)
    ex oroshi > dash > c.hp > mk tsurugi

    Yun:
    ex oroshi > f+mp > c.mp > mk tsurugi
    ex oroshi > empty xu hk > mk tsurugi (works off of setups into ex oroshi only)
    ex oroshi > dash > c.hp > mk tsurugi

    Notes: You'll notice a few setups that utilize Late Tsurugi. I'm sure you guys know about it, but I didn't; There is a certain point in your jump arc when you do a tsurugi, even the LK and MK tsurugi hitboxes take form of the HK Tsurugi hitbox. It's really late into the jump, borderline passing your opponent. To me, it's an entirely new type of tsurugi. I've uploaded an example of it. Do not be afraid of it. When looking at it for the first time, it looks really hard. It is NOT. In fact, it's one of the easiest setups and I wish it worked on more characters.

    Crossup J.HP Setups:
    (Important Note: Some of these setups are very immature in form, because when I started looking for these, I was in a totally different direction than I ended up looking in the long run, so a VERY small amount of characters have some walkback force setups, but I scrapped the idea early on. If you like them, I can find more. Also noted is that in some examples of the vortex, j.hp after an ex oroshi is much easier on certain characters than crossup Tsurugi, such as Rose, Guile, T Hawk and Sagat)
    Abel:
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hk > j.hp
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Adon:
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hk > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > S.HP xx EX oroshi > Hayate Feint > s.mk > j.hp
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Akuma:
    Backthrow > dash > s.lp > s.mk > j.hp
    Karakusa > S.HP xx EX oroshi > Hayate Feint > s.mk > j.hp
    Karakusa > S.HP xx EX Oroshi > hayate feint > c.mp > j.hp

    Balrog:
    Backthrow > c.hk > s.lk > j.hp
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > s.lk > c.mk > j.hp

    Bison:
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hk > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Backthrow > c.hk > s.lp > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp
    Karakusa > S.HP xx EX oroshi > Hayate Feint > s.mk > j.hp

    Blanka:
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hp > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > s.lk > c.mk > j.hp
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Cammy:
    Backthrow > c.hk > s.lp > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.lk > c.mk > j.hp

    Chun Li:
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hp > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > s.lk > c.mk > j.hp

    Cody:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Dan:
    Karakusa > S.HP xx EX oroshi > Hayate Feint > s.mk > j.hp
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Dee Jay:
    Backthrow > c.hk > s.lp > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > s.lp > s.hk > j.hp

    Dhalsim:

    Dudley:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    El Fuerte:
    Backthrow > c.hk > s.lp > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > s.lk > c.mk > j.hp
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Evil Ryu:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.lp > c.mk > j.hp

    Fei Long:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Gen:

    Gief:
    Karakusa > f+mp > s.hp > j.hp (can't be u1d)
    Backthrow > f+HP > J.hp

    Gouken:
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hk > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Guile:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lp > c.mp > j.hp

    Guy:
    Karakusa > S.HP xx EX oroshi > Hayate Feint > s.mk > j.hp
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lp > c.mp > j.hp

    Hakan:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Honda:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hp > j.hp (walk back forces j.hp to crossup)

    Ibuki:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hp > j.hp (walk back forces j.hp to crossup)

    Juri:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Ken:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.lp > c.mk > j.hp

    Makoto:
    Backthrow > c.lp s.lp s.lp s.lk > j.hp (walk forces j.hp to crossup)
    Backthrow > f.mp > s.lk > s.lk > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Backthrow > hayate feint > c.mk > s.lk > j.hp (walk back forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > hayate feint > c.mp > j.hp

    Oni:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.lp > c.mk > j.hp

    Rose:
    Karakusa > S.HP xx EX oroshi > Hayate Feint > s.mk > j.hp
    ex oroshi > dash > s.lp > c.mp > j.hp

    Rufus:
    Backthrow > s.lk > c.hp > j.hp (walkback forces j.hp to crossup)
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp
    EX Oroshi > dash > s.lp > c.mp > j.hp

    Ryu:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.lp > c.mk > j.hp

    Sagat:
    Backthrow > c.hk > j.hp

    Sakura:
    Karakusa > s.lk > c.mk > j.hp
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    Seth:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp

    T Hawk:
    Backthrow > c.hk > j.hp
    Backthrow > f+hp > j.hp

    Vega:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp
    Karakusa > S.HP xx EX oroshi > Hayate Feint > s.mk > j.hp

    Viper:

    Yang:

    Yun:
    Karakusa > s.hp xx ex oroshi > c.hp > j.hp (walk out)


    I intend on finding more setups off of backthrow for j.hp, but xu.hp was far from the center of my attention. I've been using this vortex in matches with salt-inducing levels of consistency. It's really fun to get a backthrow or ex oroshi and once your opponent tries to adjust to the vortex, it opens up Makoto's playbook tenfold. A lot of players that eventually make adjustments become meaty fodder with s.mp, which gives me a free meaty link into s.hp, and then into whatever. Or a karakusa. I think, when you're not stunning your opponents, you'll enjoy the amount of options that the threat opens up for Makoto. Unfortunately, I couldn't post my HK Tsurugi Followups, my EX Hayate followups or my blockstrings (stand/crouch) into xu tsurugi followups, but that's because they're not done, and I wanted to get the bulk of this vortex out now. I feel the ex oroshi part was the most important thing because it provides an unrivaled synergy off of EX Oroshi when you score a crossup Tsurugi.

  • DivemanDiveman Loli-zoning Joined: Posts: 2,656
    well, we now have training mode, so Ive been posting a lot of setups vs certain characters that cuts all their options, so, I dont know if here is a good place to put them or just leave them in the matchup thread (which is not updated btw)
  • the mossad manthe mossad man EVIL MAKOTO Joined: Posts: 1,467
    well, we now have training mode, so Ive been posting a lot of setups vs certain characters that cuts all their options, so, I dont know if here is a good place to put them or just leave them in the matchup thread (which is not updated btw)
    Here is a good place especially if they are new setups that didn't work in SSIV... but any that aren't in a sticky already are good (I'm compiling all of the ones I can find in the stickies). Anything can help.
    "I call this the lowest common denominator theory"..." you want to do as little as possible necessary to still win. And rather than an embarrassment, this is a major skill."

    S.Kill
  • D4RK ONIOND4RK ONION FA-Tool Developer Joined: Posts: 73 ✭✭
    Wow wow wow wow. Whoever the members are behind this (I reckon I could guess a few!) you guys are amazing.

    PS: maybe add damage and stun values to the normals under the frame ad/disadvantage?
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    (vryu inside):
    I've updated feilong strategy part.

    Next are yun and yang.
  • v-ryuv-ryu Joined: Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭
  • the mossad manthe mossad man EVIL MAKOTO Joined: Posts: 1,467
    Wowowow thanks vryu! Great info!
    "I call this the lowest common denominator theory"..." you want to do as little as possible necessary to still win. And rather than an embarrassment, this is a major skill."

    S.Kill
  • D4RK ONIOND4RK ONION FA-Tool Developer Joined: Posts: 73 ✭✭
    In yun section, the first video refers to "some tricks vs. Fei Long", might wanna fix that :)
  • the mossad manthe mossad man EVIL MAKOTO Joined: Posts: 1,467
    UPDATE:

    I finished Comman Normals, and added the Quick Question/Answer section. In this section I took all of the threads that have popped up since AE came out, removed the questions from them, and posted the question with the most relevant answer(s). Those threads are no obsolete. I'll continue working on the "normal's" section, but after that i'm going to compile all of the top player's videos since AE came out (vryu, lovelynara, Haitani, shiro, etc) in HD ONLY and organize them into one easy to manage post. Will update later!

    EDIT - I will of course make exeptions for vryu videos... those are too good to pass up even if its in SD :D:D:D
    EDIT - Added RM's Hayate Cancel info to most of the normals. I still have to do jumping and crouching normals, and I'll add the HC info when I do crouching normals.
    "I call this the lowest common denominator theory"..." you want to do as little as possible necessary to still win. And rather than an embarrassment, this is a major skill."

    S.Kill
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Robot Makoto in the hizzy, dogs! Word up like a mother! Updated the combo section a little bit; I'll finish up the hit-confirm section later. I plan to expand a little on the normals eventually, and maybe do a landing the Karakusa section and a very fleshed out frame-trapping section soon.
  • BlaughableBlaughable Formerly S0nicBooom Joined: Posts: 111
    Robot Makoto in the hizzy, dogs! Word up like a mother! Updated the combo section a little bit; I'll finish up the hit-confirm section later. I plan to expand a little on the normals eventually, and maybe do a landing the Karakusa section and a very fleshed out frame-trapping section soon.
    Would love a thorough frame trap write up!
  • v-ryuv-ryu Joined: Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭
    i film with my iphone!!! top quality video xD
  • AEMAKOTOAEMAKOTO Seichusan Godanzuki Joined: Posts: 71
    Frame trap section is in. I took all the applicable, useful frame traps I could think of and wrote a little summary on them. I also did a little write up for Ultra 1 and fixed a few spelling errors, and I changed the topic title since I think we all know we can post as of now :)

    - Robo.
  • HitomiHitomi Rindoukan Blue Belt Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Oh, and I plan to get a Tsurugi section going soon.
    Formerly Robot Makoto
  • D4RK ONIOND4RK ONION FA-Tool Developer Joined: Posts: 73 ✭✭
    In c.mp* you have a c.lp image in the first bit

    /reading everything >_<
  • the mossad manthe mossad man EVIL MAKOTO Joined: Posts: 1,467
    Robot Makoto=Awesomeness! Great writeups!
    "I call this the lowest common denominator theory"..." you want to do as little as possible necessary to still win. And rather than an embarrassment, this is a major skill."

    S.Kill
  • D4RK ONIOND4RK ONION FA-Tool Developer Joined: Posts: 73 ✭✭
    Also, I'm pretty sure Adon gets up at the same time as everyone else now, so in U1 his frames of recovery should be under the "everyone else", right? And I think one of the twins gets up a frame faster than everyone else.
  • HitomiHitomi Rindoukan Blue Belt Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Also, I'm pretty sure Adon gets up at the same time as everyone else now, so in U1 his frames of recovery should be under the "everyone else", right? And I think one of the twins gets up a frame faster than everyone else.

    True. I'd like very much if we could get the values for AE, somehow. Maybe those of us who know Japanese could look up their sources?
    Formerly Robot Makoto
  • farplanerfarplaner Joined: Posts: 636
    http://www20.atwiki.jp/ssf4/pages/2200.html

    After backthrow:
    59F: Adon
    60F: Others
    61F: Blanka, Dhalsim, Claw, Sagat
    65F: Hakan

    After d.HP:
    45F: Others
    46F: Sagat, Cammy
    47F: Blanka

    After EX oroshi:
    68F: Others
    69F: Sagat, Cammy
    70F: Blanka

    After U1:
    89F: Others
    90F: Sagat, Cammy
    91F: Blanka

    After F.HK:
    46F: Others
    47F: Sagat, Cammy
    48F: Blanka

    After HP oroshi:
    73F: Others
    74F: Sagat, Cammy
    75F: Blanka

    =====
    Note: Compare it to their general wake up frame data: (combine it with above data to make your conclusion)

    http://www20.atwiki.jp/ssf4/pages/1121.html#id_1c623b12

    It states:
    Face Down:
    33F (+2F): Blanka, Yang (2F invincible bug)
    32F (+1F): Sagat, Cammy, "Neutral stick" Gen (with 1F invincible bug)
    31F (+0F): Others

    Face Up:
    20F Adon (1F invincible bug)
    21F Others, "Neutral stick" Gen (with 1F invincible bug), "Neutral stick" Yang (with 18F invincible bug)
    22F Blanka, Dhalsim, Claw, Sagat
    26F Hakan
  • HitomiHitomi Rindoukan Blue Belt Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Thank you very kindly. I'll change the U1 section.
    Formerly Robot Makoto
  • the mossad manthe mossad man EVIL MAKOTO Joined: Posts: 1,467
    OH MAN!!! This is fucking AWESOME This is definately going into one of the OPs (if RM didn't beat me to it :P)

    EDIT - One question though - What is the deal with the face up/face down thing? Are those for quick rises?
    "I call this the lowest common denominator theory"..." you want to do as little as possible necessary to still win. And rather than an embarrassment, this is a major skill."

    S.Kill
  • farplanerfarplaner Joined: Posts: 636
    Oh yeah, that page has all kinds of set ups already there, lol
  • HitomiHitomi Rindoukan Blue Belt Joined: Posts: 1,125
    OH MAN!!! This is fucking AWESOME This is definately going into one of the OPs (if RM didn't beat me to it :P)

    All yours, brother.
    Formerly Robot Makoto
  • farplanerfarplaner Joined: Posts: 636
    EDIT - One question though - What is the deal with the face up/face down thing? Are those for quick rises?

    Simply, to show the animation frames of a character waking up from face down or face up. So like, after backthrow, the character is down for a certain amount of frames, and then add the amount of frames of the animation to get the full frames count.

    I think the Makoto set up page isn't the most up to date because it is missing information about the invincible frames bug/Yang/Gen data, so like after backthrow, it should have been this:

    After backthrow:
    59F: Adon (1F invincible bug)
    60F: Others, "Neutral stick" Gen (with 1F invincible bug), "Neutral stick" Yang (with 18F invincible bug)
    61F: Blanka, Dhalsim, Claw, Sagat
    65F: Hakan

    And after d.HP:
    45F: Others, Yang (2F invincible bug)
    46F: Sagat, Cammy, "Neutral stick" Gen (with 1F invincible bug)
    47F: Blanka
  • HitomiHitomi Rindoukan Blue Belt Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Oh yeah, that page has all kinds of set ups already there, lol

    Could you quick translate the set-ups?
    Formerly Robot Makoto
  • farplanerfarplaner Joined: Posts: 636
    After back throw:
    - walk back a bit then jump MK
    - dash x3 -> s.MP
    - dash x3 -> karakusa (will miss with perfect timing)
    - dash x2 -> meaty lp oroshi
    - mp fukiage whiff -> s.MP
    - mp fukiage whiff -> karakusa (will miss with perfect timing)
    - f.HK hold -> s.MP
    - f.HK hold -> karakusa
    - f.MP -> n.jump safe jump

    After cr.HP
    - forward jump attack whiff -> grab after landing
    - forward jump -> cr.lk after landing

    After ex oroshi
    - dash -> n.jump -> s.MP after landing
    - dash -> lp -> n.jump safe jump
    - dash -> n.jump attack whiff -> mk/hk karakusa after landing
    - dash -> f.MP -> meaty mp oroshi
    - hp fukiage whiff -> s.MP (will miss with perfect timing)
    - dash x3 -> s.lk whiff -> HK karakusa
    - HK whiff -> n.jump MK (Ryu/Akuma only)

    After U1
    - walk forward a little then jump MK
    - dash -> f.HK hold -> jump attack (mid screen only)
    - forward jump attack (corner only)
    - lv3 focus (corner only)
    - f.HK hold -> s.MP
    - f.HK hold -> karakusa (corner only)

    After f.HK
    - dash -> HP oroshi
  • HitomiHitomi Rindoukan Blue Belt Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Thanks.
    Formerly Robot Makoto
  • BlaughableBlaughable Formerly S0nicBooom Joined: Posts: 111
    This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Farplaner!!
  • DiendDiend Play to learn. Joined: Posts: 106
    I love you guys so much. Thanks for all the useful information.
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