Official SRK Ultra SF4 Rebalance Request Thread

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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 6,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Evil Ryu needs something to open people up more. Dunno what it woudl be, but as it stands he has far too difficult a time initiating offense, especially with such low health and stun.

    i think he would be good if they made his fireball recovery better. make it like sagats high tiger shots in vanilla. i think it was 38 frames then.

    E.ryu's is 45 frames now if im not mistaken.
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Increase range on Makoto's Karakusas (currently outranged by Yun/Fei/Yang's similar command throws)
    Give Makoto a crouching 3frame of some sort
    Make Makoto's level 2 or greater Hayates break armor. (There is very little reason to ever charge them currently)
    Reduce stun / Damage on Oroshi, reduce startup frames on LP and MP oroshi. (Leave HP alone)
    Reduce stun from 100*120 to 100*100 for EX Tsurgi

    Give Dan his rolling Taunt
    Allow Dan to counter fireballs with his crouching taunt (gives no super meter however to Dan but prevents chip damage.)

    Make Cody's knife throw count as a 2 hit fireball instead of losing to fireballs entirely.
    Allow Cody to use Knife throw in mid air (have the knife land far away from Cody after throw however.)
    Improve Cody's backdash slightly.

    Remove Armor break on Yun's Lunge Punch. Increase recovery frames on EX to make it -1 on block instead of +1
    Reduce the time that Yun has a small hitbox when doing his shoulder so he can still dodge projectiles but has to time it more carefully.
    Reduce meter gain on Yun's wiffed palms. Also reduce active frames from the massive 15 frames.
    Reduce range on command throw from 1.1 to 0.95 and EX from 1.3 to 1.1
    Reduce Genei Jin duration from 7seconds to 6. OR Increase the combo damage scaling rate while under the effects of Genei Jin. (not both, one OR the other.)

    Chun Li - Remove Infinite Combo

    Gouken -
    Make hurricane kick not leave ground unless it connects with first hit. Still can be ducked, but no longer the SINGLE MOST punishable move in the game on block or wiff.
    Give him some decent normals (seriously they are almost all 5 frame startup at minimum with massive recovery.)

    Yang
    Reduce meter gain on wiffed palms
    Reduce range on roll to up kicks for MK and HK
    Reduce damage on mantis strikes. (slightly)

    Fei - Revert all buffs from Super to AE
    Reduce range (slightly) on Rekkas
    Reduce invincibility frames on HK and MK Chicken Wing (leave EX alone.)

    Akuma
    Reduce damage/Stun on HK and MK Hurricane Kick
    Reduce Stun (but not damage) on demon flip dive kick
    Increase damage on Super Combo from 330 to 360
  • XgrayninjaXgrayninja Fumbling my way to the top. One loss at a time. Joined: Posts: 1,224
    I think we should also try and be vocal about, and maybe reach a consensus on, the characters we feel shouldn't changed at all. Makoto is one example that comes to mind. Oh, and maybe Ken. Personally, I don't think Fei Long needs to be changed at all, but I know others will disagree. There are obviously other characters that fit this bill, but I can't think of any right now.
    Gotta be hungry.
  • Staying FreeStaying Free Sacchin scenario? Joined: Posts: 327
    I'm bored.

    Seth
    +j.HP limbs restored, stun reduced by 100 (believe it's 200 in Super.)
    +Ultra 1 regains projectile invincibility, damage lowered to 320, recovery kept the same
    +Ultra 2 damage boosted to 410
    +cr.LK start up lowered to 4f
    +cr.LP start up lowered to 3f
    +cr.HP start up lowered to 8f
    +cst.MP and cst.HP activation range significantly increased
    +cst.LP connects on crouching opponents
    +Dive kick descends faster, hit and block stun remain the same
    +EX Hyakuretsukyaku is projectile invincible for it's entire duration
    +Teleport recovery returned to vanilla status
    - Health reduced to 750
    - All versions of Hyakuretsukyaku do 120/150
    - Tanden Engine scales combos
    - MP and HP Shoryuken invincibility duration lowered to 4f, EX retains AE invincibility values
    - HP Super no longer grabs opponents from full screen
    - Ultra 1 cannot be done on connected or absorbed Sonic Booms
    - cr.HP damage lowered to 50*20
    - cst.MP damage lowered to 65
    - cst.HP damage lowered to 80
    - All SPD versions do 100 stun
    - Seth gains slightly less meter from all versions of Shoryuken, his dive kick, and from connected Head stomps

    Yun
    - Health reduced to 850
    - Stun reduced to 850
    - Hurt boxes on cr.MP, cr.MK, st.MP extended
    - EX Lunge is now 0 on block
    - EX Lunge has a bigger hurt box on the lower portion of Yun's body
    - EX Shoulder Lunge does not go through fireballs as easily
    - HK Dragon Kicks does not go as far
    - During Genei Jin, palm and overhead damage have been reduced significantly
    - EX Command Grab has slightly less range
    - Palm builds slightly less meter

    Gouki
    + The second hit of fst.HK no longer whiffs on some crouching opponents
    + EX Goshoryuken does 10 more damage on each connected hit
    - Health reduced to 800

    Yang
    - Stun reduced to 900
    - Linking into cst.MK is now a 1f link
    - Palm builds slightly less meter
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  • RindoukanKarateManRindoukanKarateMan I like Karate Girls Joined: Posts: 504
    Giving that to Ryu wouldn't to that to the game. I think Ryu should be balance around his fireball. Did you even play ST at all? Ryu was fun to play in that game and fireball traps are a big reason for it.

    Additionally, nearly every character now has multiple ways to get past fireballs now, I think you are over reacting.

    @ HNIC Mike --- ok, I will admit the Chicken Wing issue. That does need to stay the same, other then that he should go back to Super Spec imo.
    Do you know how hard it is to get in on guile? he argubly has the BEST recovery on his booms. Also this isn't ST. And Ryu still has really good recovery on his hadouken. what they could do though is give him back the active frames on his crouching forward (not even sure why that got nerfed) and maybe give him back his air tatsu. Even though I hated run away ryus.
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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 6,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wait. dude is trying to buff makoto?

    and an air knife toss for cody?
    what they could do though is give him back the active frames on his crouching forward (not even sure why that got nerfed)

    it was really hard to play footsies with ryu for many of the lower tier characters. just about every character outside of the top 10-15. almost exclusively because of cr.mk. more so because of the combo of cr.mk and a really good fireball, and a fast good ranged sweep.
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • GraphfGraphf Amat Victoria Curam Joined: Posts: 1,201 ✭✭
    Fei certainly needs to be changed a bit. As well as the Yun.

    I agree that Makoto is fine. So is Viper.

    But I also think that Ultra damage should be lowered across the board while Super damage is increased.
    Monster Hunter
  • Killer_JigglypuffKiller_Jigglypuff Karakusa is cheap Joined: Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Naw, Ryu doesn't need roflcopter back. He can already space a lot of characters out well with his AA normals, SRKs, and fireballs. Getting him to the corner should be rewarding for grapplers, he doesn't need an "LOL SEE YA" option. And this is cmoing from someone who's played a fair amount of Ryu.
    Student of the Rindou-Kan
  • GraphfGraphf Amat Victoria Curam Joined: Posts: 1,201 ✭✭
    Do you know how hard it is to get in on guile? he argubly has the BEST recovery on his booms. Also this isn't ST. And Ryu still has really good recovery on his hadouken. what they could do though is give him back the active frames on his crouching forward (not even sure why that got nerfed) and maybe give him back his air tatsu. Even though I hated run away ryus.

    It's obvious you don't/didn't play ST. Do YOU know how hard it is to get in on O.Sagat? lol, @ guile in SF4
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  • XgrayninjaXgrayninja Fumbling my way to the top. One loss at a time. Joined: Posts: 1,224
    Rufus is another character that I feel doesn't need any changes at all.
    Gotta be hungry.
  • Staying FreeStaying Free Sacchin scenario? Joined: Posts: 327
    On a more realistic note, Ryu should get his cr.MK back. Coward copter can get the fuck outta here though. Who the fuck cares about ST? This is SFIV.

    (quick edit: ST is still a decent game, just don't see how it MATTERS here. And it's true that cr.MK pretty much dominated the lower tier footsie game...maybe give it back the active frames, but keep the new hit box?)
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  • NegroDinamitaNegroDinamita A smart nigga, that do dumb shit Joined: Posts: 509
    Adon
    - U1 being projectile invincible
    - Close standing roundhouse being a command normal
    - Normal health
    - A feint of some sort
    - make his overhead a little quicker
    - un-nerf jaguar kicks
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  • ShadolooDollShadolooDoll asdaf Joined: Posts: 2,919 ✭✭
    @ person asking for MORE makoto buffs



    ................. if anything I feel they went overboard with her.... at least with the health buff. She did need help though.
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  • ChocobunyChocobuny The Hell is a Safejump? Joined: Posts: 664 ✭✭✭
    For cammy, my true love:
    Make Spiral Arrow armor break
    Remove Dive Kick height restriction.

    What was the point in buffing her normals when she has these awful normals anyway (close roundhouse rofl). Just return her to a rush down, you don't have to buff the damage back I don't care if it stays awful, but please let her have a place again instead of this weird mix of a character we have now, who has no great way to rushdown and no real way to play a poking game with characters that can do it so much better. It's either one or the other Capcom, and she was obviously designed for rush down.
    Dat Katy
  • ShadolooDollShadolooDoll asdaf Joined: Posts: 2,919 ✭✭
    i think armor breaking on spiral arrow would help cammy.
    R.I.P. sksksksksk222

  • XgrayninjaXgrayninja Fumbling my way to the top. One loss at a time. Joined: Posts: 1,224
    Who the fuck cares about ST? This is SFIV.
    I agree with this sentiment. Saying Ryu should get his ST fireball back is akin to saying Chun should be exactly like her 3rd Strike incarnation. First of all, it's not going to happen, so to be honest it's kind of a useless topic for discussion. Secondly, it would be pretty dumb if it did happen, IMO.
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  • GraphfGraphf Amat Victoria Curam Joined: Posts: 1,201 ✭✭
    For cammy, my true love:
    Make Spiral Arrow armor break
    Remove Dive Kick height restriction.

    What was the point in buffing her normals when she has these awful normals anyway (close roundhouse rofl). Just return her to a rush down, you don't have to buff the damage back I don't care if it stays awful, but please let her have a place again instead of this weird mix of a character we have now, who has no great way to rushdown and no real way to play a poking game with characters that can do it so much better. It's either one or the other Capcom, and she was obviously designed for rush down.

    Ya, I always thought that her Drill should break armor. Spin Fist is suck a shit breaker.

    I think they should let her dive kick lower to the ground but not quite an instant as it was in Super. It lead to too much damage for not enough risk on the Cammy players part. I agree that in AE they pretty much screwed her up thought. So maybe if they lower the height restriction and add more hitstun/blockstun to it it could still be viable and make her competitive again.

    But, I think overall that dive kicks should not be as good as they are in AE (Rufus, Yun)
    Monster Hunter
  • C2QC2Q Joined: Posts: 1,156
    Yun:

    Less range on command grab/smaller combo window after.
    Ex lunge - on block obv.
    Shoulder should stay the same. More pushback. Remove crossup hitbox.
    Upkicks should have more recovery for the distance they travel. Lk having the least. Should be at least the same amount as as whiffed shoryuken on the m and h/ex.
    Palm - smaller hitbox? Less damage? slightly less meter maybe.
    Do not change his meter gain significantly only very little.

    Akuma:

    Keep him the same for the most part
    u1 slightly more damage
    slightly more damage on his combos.

    Oni:

    Needs significant buffs
    fireball goes fullscreen
    His normals are good but a lot of his shit is unsafe
    Make srk fadcable on block
    slash should have faster startup
    stomps should have less recovery
    make aa u1 less useless
    u2 easier to hit?

    Guy:

    Needs a bit more buffs.
    Faster startup on hozanto. Contrast with Yun's shoulder.
    Make regular spinkick a viable reversal (more invincibility)
    more priority on izuna drop (Cannot be air thrown)
    slightly faster jump?
    more hitstun on bf elbow for comboing.
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  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭
    Does anybody have any evidence that these suggestions ever get heard? Like a popular requested change that was actually implemented in the game?
  • GraphfGraphf Amat Victoria Curam Joined: Posts: 1,201 ✭✭
    The point about Ryu is that he needs something to make him better. Capcom obviously hasn't liked him since SF4.

    Looking back at ST is a way to see what he used to be like and what he could be like if they wanted him to. Considering that FB characters are not that good in AE giving Ryu some buffs in that department would allow FD style characters to come back thus making the game LESS one dimensional.

    This would happen by logical extension. All the best characters are rushdown style. Making FB style viable ADDS another playstyle to the game. I think it is a good thing and Ryu needs something after all the nerfs from game to game.

    Making is FB's a more potent threat not only makes him a better character it adds a new playstyle to the game.

    edit: @ m16ghost -- Ono and Seth have both stated, multiple times that they do pay attention to the threads. Not that the changes we want will make it in but they keep our thoughts in mind.
    Monster Hunter
  • ShadolooDollShadolooDoll asdaf Joined: Posts: 2,919 ✭✭
    Does anybody have any evidence that these suggestions ever get heard? Like a popular requested change that was actually implemented in the game?

    yeah actually I was about to ask I thought I read you could send suggestions to ONO or something. Am I imagining things? If not can someone be kind enough to link where you can send submissions please?
    R.I.P. sksksksksk222

  • SosageSosage Mopping Up Your Salt Joined: Posts: 1,703 mod
    This game is an entire planet away from ST in almost every way.

    Makoto is fine...but Karakusa is the worst command throw in the game. Every other command throw I've run into takes priority. Everything but blocking beats it. So...I mean...I dunno.

    I also wouldn't drop damage on Ultra 1. It's nice that she can actually count on ending most rounds with it now. It really sucked in Super snagging a hard earned Ultra set up for the finish...and the opponent landing with a couple pixels left of life.
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  • XgrayninjaXgrayninja Fumbling my way to the top. One loss at a time. Joined: Posts: 1,224
    Fireballs were viable in Super, the only reason they are less viable now is due to the 3 top tier characters all having extremely effective moves meant to nullify the fireball game. So, they don't need to go overboard and give Ryu some guile-like recover on his fireballs, just tweak Yun, Yang and Fei (especially Yun & Yang) so that they aren't practically immune to zoning any more.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wait. dude is trying to buff makoto?

    and an air knife toss for cody?

    it was really hard to play footsies with ryu for many of the lower tier characters. just about every character outside of the top 10-15. almost exclusively because of cr.mk. more so because of the combo of cr.mk and a really good fireball, and a fast good ranged sweep.

    After watching EVO and SBO Quals I'm personally siding with Seth Killian on the idea that Makoto is overrated and while a good character has to work significantly harder than others to be effective. The biggest issue more than anything IMO is the pathetic range on Karakusa. Go look at 3S stats you'll see that Karakusa was about double normal throw range and 50% longer range than Yun/Yangs flip throw. While in SF4 her range is BARELY above normal throw range and beaten by Yun/Yang/Fei's command throw range by a fairly significant amount.
  • LiquigenLiquigen Joined: Posts: 388
    Hmm... interesting.

    Honestly, Hakan doesn't need changes. He's fine as is, really. If you really wanna stress it, I couldn't argue against giving his lights a bit more advantage on block. Even then, I do like the advantage he has currently (+2 for lk) for counterhits and such.

    But yeah, I don't wanna see either of the twins nerfed to hell, they really don't deserve it. I mean, a lot of the complaints about Yun would cease if you nerfed his damage a bit (cause he really does get a lot of damage), but left everything else the same, or close to it. I'm fine with the fact that he has a good offense, and I'm also ok that he has a pretty hard time getting off his ass as well.

    So yeah, lower the damage a bit and it'll be golden.
  • RindoukanKarateManRindoukanKarateMan I like Karate Girls Joined: Posts: 504
    It's obvious you don't/didn't play ST. Do YOU know how hard it is to get in on O.Sagat? lol, @ guile in SF4
    I did play it. But I didn't get REALLY interested as far as leveling my game up until 3rd strike. And Sagat in SF 4 isn't nearly as broken as he was in ST.
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  • Lost FragmentLost Fragment durr Joined: Posts: 660
    This game is an entire planet away from ST in almost every way.

    Makoto is fine...but Karakusa is the worst command throw in the game. Every other command throw I've run into takes priority. Everything but blocking beats it. So...I mean...I dunno.

    I also wouldn't drop damage on Ultra 1. It's nice that she can actually count on ending most rounds with it now. It really sucked in Super snagging a hard earned Ultra set up for the finish...and the opponent landing with a couple pixels left of life.

    Karakusa is one of the worst command throws when it comes to priority, but it's one of the best when it lands, so I think it's fine as-is. Yeah it loses to anything but blocking, but she has enough to make you scared of pushing buttons that it makes up for it.
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  • del1riumdel1rium Hype Junkie Joined: Posts: 1,800
    - Super meter should not carry over between rounds (ST style) Use it or lose. This way people fight instead of wiffing moves if they think they will lose. (controversial I know but think about it)

    If EX wasn't so important I might agree, but as it stands meter management is part of the game ... changing the way meter works would be a major fundamental shift in how the game is played.

    Let's stick to balance changes and not fundamental changes...
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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 6,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    people should also try to list their reasoning behind the changes they want

    my fei nerfs-

    reduced damage on RH chicken wing.
    close fierce from 100 to 90 dmg
    lk flame kick to 100. mk to 110. hk to 120. damage split 60*60

    currently fei does too much explosive damage from either punish combos(250/300 with 1 EX) or post command grab combos, or FADC flame kick combos(280 for raw fadc DP into heavy CW), and random CWs(366). he also gets close to 450 from raw 3 hit CW, close fiercexxxdp fadc hk cw
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • RindoukanKarateManRindoukanKarateMan I like Karate Girls Joined: Posts: 504
    Hmm... interesting.

    Honestly, Hakan doesn't need changes. He's fine as is, really. If you really wanna stress it, I couldn't argue against giving his lights a bit more advantage on block. Even then, I do like the advantage he has currently (+2 for lk) for counterhits and such.

    But yeah, I don't wanna see either of the twins nerfed to hell, they really don't deserve it. I mean, a lot of the complaints about Yun would cease if you nerfed his damage a bit (cause he really does get a lot of damage), but left everything else the same, or close to it. I'm fine with the fact that he has a good offense, and I'm also ok that he has a pretty hard time getting off his ass as well.

    So yeah, lower the damage a bit and it'll be golden.
    THey might give him some new tricks (again) perhaps a completely safe oil up? but we really haven't seen any top quality hakan play. So we don't really know what hes capable of.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Karakusa is one of the worst command throws when it comes to priority, but it's one of the best when it lands, so I think it's fine as-is. Yeah it loses to anything but blocking, but she has enough to make you scared of pushing buttons that it makes up for it.

    Turn Punch Final is also the best special move when it hits. Doesn't make it useful or consistent. When I watched the SBO quals and EVO I saw less than 9 Karakusa ATTEMPTS and of them only I believe 5 connected. I actually saw more people use Fei's flip command throw (which has a significantly longer startup time but better range) than Karakusa. And the reason that Karakusa has as long of an opening as it does after being used is that it NEEDS it because unlike Fei/Yun/Yang Makoto doesn't have that many combo strings, and since Karakusa does damage it starts the combo damage scaling which doesn't affect Fei/Yun/Yang since theirs do no damage.
  • XgrayninjaXgrayninja Fumbling my way to the top. One loss at a time. Joined: Posts: 1,224
    Karakusa is one of the worst command throws when it comes to priority, but it's one of the best when it lands, so I think it's fine as-is. Yeah it loses to anything but blocking, but she has enough to make you scared of pushing buttons that it makes up for it.
    I agree. I've played against Makoto's that I'd consider to be pretty good, and she definitely does a good enough job of scaring you into just blocking, which opens you up for a karakusa. Makoto is fine as is. Yeah, she has a sort of hard time getting into a position to start her insane rushdown, but any competent Makoto player WILL find that opportunity, and from there the round could very well be over.
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  • Killer_JigglypuffKiller_Jigglypuff Karakusa is cheap Joined: Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree. I've played against Makoto's that I'd consider to be pretty good, and she definitely does a good enough job of scaring you into just blocking, which opens you up for a karakusa. Makoto is fine as is. Yeah, she has a sort of hard time getting into a position to start her insane rushdown, but any competent Makoto player WILL find that opportunity, and from there the round could very well be over.

    Have we played in AE yet?
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  • LiquigenLiquigen Joined: Posts: 388
    THey might give him some new tricks (again) perhaps a completely safe oil up? but we really haven't seen any top quality hakan play. So we don't really know what hes capable of.

    You're probably right. As of right now he is a pretty fundamentally solid character, and when oiled he becomes even better thanks to increased mobility and such. But I doubt there will be a 100% safe oil, because that would be a lot of reward for no effort.

    Like, he can already combo into his oil (oil followup of slide), which grants him meaty pressure while oiled. From there you're forced to deal with some form of mixup which may very well end up with Hakan getting more oil thanks to stacking (say he tick throws to lp/mp spd to RH oil. thats about.. 15 seconds of oil time plus the damage he gets on you).

    And then, since he has a light hit confirm to slide, his meaties are actually a threat. In Super, he could meaty, but nothing really rewarding came out of doing so, except maybe 140 damage from a link.

    So I mean he's much better in AE thanks to a buff to his fundamentals. He really doesn't need much more in terms of tools, unless you're looking to make him super awesome.

    But I also can't deny that he's probably gonna either A) receive some new tool to mess with or B) receive nothing.
  • XgrayninjaXgrayninja Fumbling my way to the top. One loss at a time. Joined: Posts: 1,224
    Have we played in AE yet?
    I don't think so. I have a friend who mains Makoto and lives close to me, and we play offline all the time. That's where I've gotten most of my AE Makoto experience.
    And we should play on dat XBL sometime soon lol.
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  • J is JusiceJ is Jusice Spelt my name wrong. Joined: Posts: 145
    Here's my suggestions:

    Blanka:

    - Upball knockdown.
    - Hori ball safe on hit.
    - Just change his overhead in someway. Make it faster/different input or something.
    - st. hp two hits.

    Cammy:

    - Return SA it to how it was in original Super.

    Fei Long:

    -Reduce FK damage.

    Cody:

    -Increase walk speed.

    C. Viper:

    -Decrease U1 damage.

    Seth:

    - Increase walk speed.

    Gouken:

    - Make Demon Flip kick on OH again.
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  • RindoukanKarateManRindoukanKarateMan I like Karate Girls Joined: Posts: 504
    You're probably right. As of right now he is a pretty fundamentally solid character, and when oiled he becomes even better thanks to increased mobility and such. But I doubt there will be a 100% safe oil, because that would be a lot of reward for no effort.

    Like, he can already combo into his oil (oil followup of slide), which grants him meaty pressure while oiled. From there you're forced to deal with some form of mixup which may very well end up with Hakan getting more oil thanks to stacking (say he tick throws to lp/mp spd to RH oil. thats about.. 15 seconds of oil time plus the damage he gets on you).

    And then, since he has a light hit confirm to slide, his meaties are actually a threat. In Super, he could meaty, but nothing really rewarding came out of doing so, except maybe 140 damage from a link.

    So I mean he's much better in AE thanks to a buff to his fundamentals. He really doesn't need much more in terms of tools, unless you're looking to make him super awesome.

    But I also can't deny that he's probably gonna either A) receive some new tool to mess with or B) receive nothing.
    I think if the give him anything it should be a safe oil up and a crossup. A crossup would make him more dangerous.
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  • GraphfGraphf Amat Victoria Curam Joined: Posts: 1,201 ✭✭
    Hmm... interesting.

    Honestly, Hakan doesn't need changes. He's fine as is, really. If you really wanna stress it, I couldn't argue against giving his lights a bit more advantage on block. Even then, I do like the advantage he has currently (+2 for lk) for counterhits and such.

    But yeah, I don't wanna see either of the twins nerfed to hell, they really don't deserve it. I mean, a lot of the complaints about Yun would cease if you nerfed his damage a bit (cause he really does get a lot of damage), but left everything else the same, or close to it. I'm fine with the fact that he has a good offense, and I'm also ok that he has a pretty hard time getting off his ass as well.

    So yeah, lower the damage a bit and it'll be golden.

    Yun damage is just the surface problem. It's his ability to get in basically whenever he wants, excellent dive kicks, and god-like mixups.
    Lowering damage is just going to mean he has to mix you up one more time. It won't prevent DISGUSTING matches like Diago vs Tokido from last night.

    That shit was just too stupid. Yun makes Tokido look like a scrub and makes Akuma look F tier. Same thing happened to Yipes awhile back against Marn. Yipes was playing Bison and couldn't do a thing. That just isn't right. It's NOT the damage, its the fact that they can lock people down and mix people up and many characters (who are otherwise good) can't do shit about it......and this happens against THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD.

    Yun needs to be toned down.
    Monster Hunter
  • Neo-Tokyo ChrisNeo-Tokyo Chris Can't wait to game again.... Joined: Posts: 17
    Why I feel Ryu should have these changes.

    Ok here goes:

    Ryu should have his crouching medium kick restored to it's previous hitbox & frames, because I feel that it helps his footsie/poke game. And if Ken still has a corner-escape air Tatsu, so should Ryu. I feel that it is necessary for him to be able to escape corners.
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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 6,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why I feel Ryu should have these changes.

    Ok here goes:

    Ryu should have his crouching medium kick restored to it's previous hitbox & frames, because I feel that it helps his footsie/poke game. And if Ken still has a corner-escape air Tatsu, so should Ryu. I feel that it is necessary for him to be able to escape corners.

    ken and ryu are different characters with different meta games. you cant just say ryu should have whatever ken does. they use the tools differently

    like ken usually isnt using his tatsu to get away from people. (he usually needs ex for that anyway)
    he uses it for air approaches to aid his rushdown

    ken also dosent have ryu's fireball, so him having a better more active cr.mk isnt as big a deal without the rest of ryus footsie tools.

    for instance, its much easier to show focus and get a crumple on ken if he pokes with cr.mkxxxfireball because first his fireball isnt coming out as fast, and second he dosent have ryus solar plexus to deter you from flashing focuses in the first place
    fuck AE ranked matches
  • GraphfGraphf Amat Victoria Curam Joined: Posts: 1,201 ✭✭
    If EX wasn't so important I might agree, but as it stands meter management is part of the game ... changing the way meter works would be a major fundamental shift in how the game is played.

    Let's stick to balance changes and not fundamental changes...

    I know, but it would REALLY shake things up and remove people running away for meter. It would force people to fight which I think is a good thing. Of course it won't happen because it's too radical of a change but I think it would make the game more fun.
    Monster Hunter
  • Killer_JigglypuffKiller_Jigglypuff Karakusa is cheap Joined: Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think so. I have a friend who mains Makoto and lives close to me, and we play offline all the time. That's where I've gotten most of my AE Makoto experience.
    And we should play on dat XBL sometime soon lol.

    Sometime, yeah. You still plugging away with Vega? I know I saw you wandering around the Evil Ryu forums a bit too.
    Student of the Rindou-Kan
  • Lost FragmentLost Fragment durr Joined: Posts: 660
    Turn Punch Final is also the best special move when it hits. Doesn't make it useful or consistent. When I watched the SBO quals and EVO I saw less than 9 Karakusa ATTEMPTS and of them only I believe 5 connected. I actually saw more people use Fei's flip command throw (which has a significantly longer startup time but better range) than Karakusa. And the reason that Karakusa has as long of an opening as it does after being used is that it NEEDS it because unlike Fei/Yun/Yang Makoto doesn't have that many combo strings, and since Karakusa does damage it starts the combo damage scaling which doesn't affect Fei/Yun/Yang since theirs do no damage.

    Comparing karakusa to a move you have to charge for like 30 seconds? C'mon dude.

    And I don't know how you can say "I saw this and this at Evo/SBO quals" like it means much when there were barely any Makoto matches on stream.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/LostFragment

    "I think she just needs some more life. She shot a baby out her vagina that earns you 100 pts right there." -ZanaOyakata
  • ShadolooDollShadolooDoll asdaf Joined: Posts: 2,919 ✭✭
    It's NOT the damage, its the fact that they can lock people down and mix people up and many characters (who are otherwise good) can't do shit about it......and this happens against THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD.

    Yun needs to be toned down.

    This is why Yun is so good. There is an AT that if Yun or Yang spaced dive kick properly, you have no choice other than to block. You cannot anti air no matter what character you are using. This coupled with their unrivaled mixup game spells disaster for any character in the game.
    R.I.P. sksksksksk222

  • GojeranGojeran Joined: Posts: 52
    If EX wasn't so important I might agree, but as it stands meter management is part of the game ... changing the way meter works would be a major fundamental shift in how the game is played.
    Then change the game! I think having meter transfer over from round to round makes some of the awesome balls to the walls plays of older sf games like ST impossible because its a better practice in its current form to run away and try to build meter rather than trying to win. This change in and of itself would make the game more offensive than any character specific fixes anybody is suggesting. If meter doesn't carry over it forces you to try to win the match! and isn't that the point?

    Mix it up! Make super meter 3 bars and increase overall meter gain for all characters on block strings and decrease meter gain for wiffed specials. FADC would still cost 2 bars so there is less DP FADC get out of jail free cards. Also with only 3 bars and overall higher meter gain supers become more viable. I know its crazy talk but so what.

    Think about it! Meter moving from one round to another makes the game more of a "slippery slope" which makes the hated "come back mechanics" more needed to make it fair. For example say an Akuma is fighting against Guile and in round 1 Akuma just takes it to Guile and doesn't use much meter. Meanwhile, Guile is burning meter like crazy trying to stay alive. Guile loses the round anyways or runs away and tries to build meter giving up one the round and making for more downback fighter 4. Now round 2 begins and Akuma is sitting on 2.5-3 bars and Guile has next to none... NOT GOOD, Guile is more or less screwed! Akuma runs away with round 2 as expected. If meter did not carry over the situation would be reset and Guile would have a fighting chance in round 2 without needing to land some kind of ultra "come back mechanic" to stay in it. Just saying...

    Oh and to stay on topic...
    Yun -1 on block ex lunge punch
    less active frames on palm and remove cross up hit box
    less meter gain on whiffed palm
    6 sec super
    slightly decrease range on command grab

    Ryu
    Give him his old crouch mk back! For the love of god capcom ryu is supposed to be good! Thats it, just give him his poke back, it was FAR from game breaking! You put Yun into the game but Ryu cr.mk was over the top! (sarcasim)

    Cammy- Remove or lower height restriction on cannon strike.

    Yang and Fei also need some nerfs but nothing to major. Honestly I think Fei is better than Yang but I'm sure that is fighting words for a lot of you.
  • cjackson3cjackson3 KillersIntellect Joined: Posts: 140
    Ya, I always thought that her Drill should break armor. Spin Fist is suck a shit breaker.

    I think they should let her dive kick lower to the ground but not quite an instant as it was in Super. It lead to too much damage for not enough risk on the Cammy players part. I agree that in AE they pretty much screwed her up thought. So maybe if they lower the height restriction and add more hitstun/blockstun to it it could still be viable and make her competitive again.

    But, I think overall that dive kicks should not be as good as they are in AE (Rufus, Yun)

    BS it shouldn't be instant! TKCS was part of the game engine THEY NEVER SHOULD HAVE REMOVED IT!!!!!!!!!! They've even brought it back 4 SFxTekken!
    Everybody Chillout! It's just a Fracking Video Game :-P
  • CommanderCommander Hey Joined: Posts: 510
    Some of these buffs to dictator are actually legit, especially psycho punisher being a qcfx2. Right now, it's not even reliable to hit off of a jump mpx2 because of start up (22) + charge time. The point of the nerf was to give fireball characters a chance to throw fireballs if bison moves forward. There are other ways of doing this without taking away bison's only viable ultra. I am not in favor of giving Dictator other buffs mentioned, like cross up devils reverse, faster pc, or decreased c.hp startup time. The first is OP, the second is a random buff, and the third is not needed; it would just make it easier to do for less skilled bisons. The game should be balanced. I hope people can stick to realistic nerfs and buffs.

    Dictator needs to be able to compete with Guile and Honda. He's free to both of them, still, especially Dictator vs Guile, which is probably the worst match up in the game now that Seth vs Gief is better (due to Seth losing j.hp). It requires nothing but solid play from Guile and no risks whatsoever; Dictator can't get in. Easily a 7-3 in Guile's favor, probably worse. I'm not in favor of nerfing characters besides the new ones(Yun), but instead in favor of buffing characters where they need it. That said, for the Guile match up, EX scissor kicks should have full fireball invincibility, and not just at the start. That way, only the Guile match up is affected. If other chars threw a fireball against Dictator and he had charge and meter, they would be hit as normal, because EX SK would do its job as normal. Guile could still throw booms outside of EX SK range, and thus still control space at range, and he could still chuck booms when Bison is forced to move forward.

    No suggestions against Honda at this time, but the damage nerf helped a little. Neurosis, a japanese dictator and probably the best dictator in the world (highest arcade BP, at least), recently lost to Mike Ross at Evo in pools. I haven't seen the match, but I am sure it would be informative as to what Bison needs here.

    TL;DR:

    Dictator/Bison:
    -EX scissor kicks needs full fireball invincibility to help vs Guile. (Would minimally influence other matchups.)
    -Psycho Punisher should be QCFx2 again, damage lowered to super's version.
    Always be willing to learn.
  • del1riumdel1rium Hype Junkie Joined: Posts: 1,800
    I know, but it would REALLY shake things up and remove people running away for meter. It would force people to fight which I think is a good thing. Of course it won't happen because it's too radical of a change but I think it would make the game more fun.

    So then let's not turn this into your personal pulpit for what you think the game's system mechanics should be.
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  • XgrayninjaXgrayninja Fumbling my way to the top. One loss at a time. Joined: Posts: 1,224
    Sometime, yeah. You still plugging away with Vega? I know I saw you wandering around the Evil Ryu forums a bit too.
    I pretty much play Bison now. I'm trying to not let my vega get rusty since I want to still utilize him for a few matchups (Guile and Dhalsim, mostly). I kind of planned on playing E. Ryu before AE came out on console, but...he's so bad. Just not worth it.
    Gotta be hungry.
  • Killer_JigglypuffKiller_Jigglypuff Karakusa is cheap Joined: Posts: 6,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see. I aleady have like 5 Bisons on my friends list but one more can't hurt eh? lol, guess I won't be hurting for matchup experience;.
    Student of the Rindou-Kan
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