Official SRK Ultra SF4 Rebalance Request Thread

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  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    what made vanilla hands so good?
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

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    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
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  • Darklightjg1Darklightjg1 Dr. SuessLight Joined: Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭✭
    You could link them into another mk xx hands without spending meter for one. Free damage and stun while building meter. That's too much with the new stuff he has now. If he couldn't combo from his super to ultra so easily, I wouldn't care.

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  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭
    Kikosho should be some where between 350-370. I dont know what the damage is for the first and last his though atm.
    USF4: Poison/Rose/Decapre
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Alright, I'm back . I see they changed forum layout, I kinda hate it. Let's see:
    Eternal wrote: »
    Still need to get rid of this:

    Dhalsim
    - cr. LK: +3 hitstun (-3)
    - cr. MK: +3 hitstun (-2)

    FAR too good and I've discussed why. Sim can space those to be plus on hit already, they are only negative on hit at point blank.

    Rose's slide is -3F on hit, Guy's is -5F on hit if he gets the far slide, Cody's is -3F on hit, Ibuki's is -5F on hit. Sim's slides not only are faster but lower the hurtbox more than any of those except Ibuki (who has a insanely low hurtbox low enough to slide under a low tiger shot.)

    At point blank c.LK can already be canceled on hit preventing it from being -6F. It's the ONLY special cancelable slide in the game and it is a 3F startup. c.MK slide goes farther, has a better hurtbox, less recovery, and less startup than Rose or Cody's slide.

    Out of all of Sim's changes those are the only 2 I flat out disagree with.

    I still disagree with Gouken's cr.MP - 80damage, s.LP - 40 damage and ESPECIALLY Gohadoken - 65 damage. The rest I think are ok. I'd like to see some other changes possibly.

    Sagat:
    - Ex: reduce the start up with 1 frame (6)

    No. The move is an armor breaker, moves extremely fast and covers most of the screen, is airborne, has only 13F recovery on whiff, and is only -1F on block at point blank and is up to ~+5-8F on block if you do it far away. Other changes look fine but that one I have a problem with.

    Take that buff away add +5 damage to low tiger shot or +10 damage to HP Tiger Upper for the first 3 active frames (Tiger Uppers all do increased damage after the first 3F but only do 120 damage before that)

    Yang
    - M, H Palm Strike: hitbox active period +3 frames (12)

    I have no problem with this change HOWEVER. I'm not certain that the Yang players that requested it fully understand how that would affect him. Adding 3F to the active period changes his frame advantage on block. MP Palm goes from -7F on block to -10F on block and HP goes from 0F to -3F on block.

    If they are ok with that then fine, I just want to be sure they understand that adding active frames changes the move in more ways that appears at first glance.

    Dhalsim: sim players wanted his slides to be safe on hit. You think adding +2 hitstun would be ok ? (-4/-3). Or these changes should be removed, and replaced ?

    Sagat: EmblemLord said Ex TK is kinda useless, he wanted something in order to be better/different than regular TKs. I'll check it out another option.

    Yang: a couple of Yang players wanted the active frames back. This way it would still be worse than in AE, where it was 13 active fr
    Shinebox wrote: »
    I also do not agree with buffing any of Ryu's normals. His slowest normal starts up in 5f and he can combo into UKD on crouching characters.

    Speaking of, are you changing the total frame count on Ryu's fireball? Either way, by changing it to 12F start up he can get away with blocked cr.MK > HP fireball on characters like Rose and Guile and not worry about getting punished. Think about that one.

    Well, cr lk buff was something I found in Ryu's forums.
    Regarding his FB, I wanted to strenghten the zoning game, so I made his fireball better, even if his zoning is really great, since many characters can avoid it, it's not that great.

    I'm not opposing removing these buffs, it's just I really don't know what to give to Ryu, and I feel kinda bad leaving him empty handed.
    "Minimal changes are the best" Seth changes I would make in 2013:
    • All head stomps gain 3 active frames ( 3f > 6f )
    • MK Hyakuretsukyaku stun lowered by 50 ( 0+150 > 0+100 )
    • HK Hyakuretsukyaku damage lowered by 10 on first hit ( 20+130 > 10+130 )
    • LP Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 100 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+50 )
    • MP Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 50 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+100 )
    • EX Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 50 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+100 )
    • Yoga Teleport recovery reduced by 2f ( 48f > 46f)
    • Super hit box fixed so all characters can hit Seth when he doesn't have invincibility frames reliably (how it is now)
    • Ultra 1 damage lowered by 20 ( 340 > 320 )
    • Ultra 2 damage increased by 30 on final hit ( 0+24x13+60 [372] > 0+24x13+90 [402] )
    • Ultra 2 recovery reduced by 10f ( 104f > 94f )

    Quick summary because I'm tired:
    Head stomps are easier to use in combos
    BnBs do less stun
    Punishes do a little less damage without Ultras
    All 3f punishes outside of HP SPD's range do less stun
    Stun from long range throws is less
    Seth is +3 against normal wake up times after Hyakuretsukyaku ~ PPP teleport (unplinkable and unblinkable, so more like +1 or +2 and still can't do a true block string)
    He can escape easier I guess (can't really think of any situations where 2f teleport recovery makes a difference but worth mentioning cause they do exist)
    Most of the cast is less fucked when Seth activates his Super and they have very little health remaining (still pretty dire usually but now you can blow through it)
    Ultra 1 a little less amazing, Ultra 2 given a reason to use

    No j.HP
    No weird buffs or new tools
    Some stuff Seth users wanted
    Nerfs stun output
    Keeps dive kick salt high

    I'm quite ok with these changes. As long as Seth doesn't become stronger (I don't think he needs), I'm ok with making him more interesting to play. As long as his buffs are acompanied by nerfs, it's fine.

    One question though: why does he needs his stomps buffed ? I see the stomps used a lot in combos (On-line-to-ny...).
    Genistar wrote: »
    Spoiler:

    I think adding Run overhead and Ultra 1 buffs to the curent list is a bit much, guy would be the most buffed character. Luminaire just told me he thinks Guy is top 10. Maybe he is overating him, but guy players tend to think guy doesn't need much and that he is quite good. Maybe removing one buff and replacing with one of these - I'll ask guy players what do they preffer.

    I will check the rest of proposes - Dhalsim, Yun and Yang, and make an updated list. I will also start to add the explanations in the list
    Post edited by Emanuelb on
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  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭
    Emanuelb wrote: »
    Alright, I'm back . I see they changed forum layout, I kinda hate it. Let's see:
    Eternal wrote: »
    Still need to get rid of this:

    Dhalsim
    - cr. LK: +3 hitstun (-3)
    - cr. MK: +3 hitstun (-2)

    FAR too good and I've discussed why. Sim can space those to be plus on hit already, they are only negative on hit at point blank.

    Rose's slide is -3F on hit, Guy's is -5F on hit if he gets the far slide, Cody's is -3F on hit, Ibuki's is -5F on hit. Sim's slides not only are faster but lower the hurtbox more than any of those except Ibuki (who has a insanely low hurtbox low enough to slide under a low tiger shot.)

    At point blank c.LK can already be canceled on hit preventing it from being -6F. It's the ONLY special cancelable slide in the game and it is a 3F startup. c.MK slide goes farther, has a better hurtbox, less recovery, and less startup than Rose or Cody's slide.

    Out of all of Sim's changes those are the only 2 I flat out disagree with.

    I still disagree with Gouken's cr.MP - 80damage, s.LP - 40 damage and ESPECIALLY Gohadoken - 65 damage. The rest I think are ok. I'd like to see some other changes possibly.

    Sagat:
    - Ex: reduce the start up with 1 frame (6)

    No. The move is an armor breaker, moves extremely fast and covers most of the screen, is airborne, has only 13F recovery on whiff, and is only -1F on block at point blank and is up to ~+5-8F on block if you do it far away. Other changes look fine but that one I have a problem with.

    Take that buff away add +5 damage to low tiger shot or +10 damage to HP Tiger Upper for the first 3 active frames (Tiger Uppers all do increased damage after the first 3F but only do 120 damage before that)

    Yang
    - M, H Palm Strike: hitbox active period +3 frames (12)

    I have no problem with this change HOWEVER. I'm not certain that the Yang players that requested it fully understand how that would affect him. Adding 3F to the active period changes his frame advantage on block. MP Palm goes from -7F on block to -10F on block and HP goes from 0F to -3F on block.

    If they are ok with that then fine, I just want to be sure they understand that adding active frames changes the move in more ways that appears at first glance.

    Dhalsim: sim players wanted his slides to be safe on hit. You think adding +2 hitstun would be ok ? (-4/-3). Or these changes should be removed, and replaced ?

    Sagat: EmblemLord said Ex TK is kinda useless, he wanted something in order to be better/different than regular TKs. I'll check it out another option.

    Yang: a couple of Yang players wanted the active frames back. This way it would still be worse than in AE, where it was 13 active fr
    Shinebox wrote: »
    I also do not agree with buffing any of Ryu's normals. His slowest normal starts up in 5f and he can combo into UKD on crouching characters.

    Speaking of, are you changing the total frame count on Ryu's fireball? Either way, by changing it to 12F start up he can get away with blocked cr.MK > HP fireball on characters like Rose and Guile and not worry about getting punished. Think about that one.

    Well, cr lk buff was something I found in Ryu's forums.
    Regarding his FB, I wanted to strenghten the zoning game, so I made his fireball better, even if his zoning is really great, since many characters can avoid it, it's not that great.

    I'm not opposing removing these buffs, it's just I really don't know what to give to Ryu, and I feel kinda bad leaving him empty handed.
    "Minimal changes are the best" Seth changes I would make in 2013:
    • All head stomps gain 3 active frames ( 3f > 6f )
    • MK Hyakuretsukyaku stun lowered by 50 ( 0+150 > 0+100 )
    • HK Hyakuretsukyaku damage lowered by 10 on first hit ( 20+130 > 10+130 )
    • LP Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 100 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+50 )
    • MP Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 50 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+100 )
    • EX Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 50 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+100 )
    • Yoga Teleport recovery reduced by 2f ( 48f > 46f)
    • Super hit box fixed so all characters can hit Seth when he doesn't have invincibility frames reliably (how it is now)
    • Ultra 1 damage lowered by 20 ( 340 > 320 )
    • Ultra 2 damage increased by 30 on final hit ( 0+24x13+60 [372] > 0+24x13+90 [402] )
    • Ultra 2 recovery reduced by 10f ( 104f > 94f )

    Quick summary because I'm tired:
    Head stomps are easier to use in combos
    BnBs do less stun
    Punishes do a little less damage without Ultras
    All 3f punishes outside of HP SPD's range do less stun
    Stun from long range throws is less
    Seth is +3 against normal wake up times after Hyakuretsukyaku ~ PPP teleport (unplinkable and unblinkable, so more like +1 or +2 and still can't do a true block string)
    He can escape easier I guess (can't really think of any situations where 2f teleport recovery makes a difference but worth mentioning cause they do exist)
    Most of the cast is less fucked when Seth activates his Super and they have very little health remaining (still pretty dire usually but now you can blow through it)
    Ultra 1 a little less amazing, Ultra 2 given a reason to use

    No j.HP
    No weird buffs or new tools
    Some stuff Seth users wanted
    Nerfs stun output
    Keeps dive kick salt high

    I'm quite ok with these changes. As long as Seth doesn't become stronger (I don't think he needs), I'm ok with making him more interesting to play. As long as his buffs are acompanied by nerfs, it's fine.

    One question though: why does he needs his stomps buffed ? I see the stomps used a lot in combos (On-line-to-ny...).
    Genistar wrote: »
    Spoiler:

    I think adding Run overhead and Ultra 1 buffs to the curent list is a bit much, guy would be the most buffed character. Luminaire just told me he thinks Guy is top 10. Maybe he is overating him, but guy players tend to think guy doesn't need much and that he is quite good. Maybe removing one buff and replacing with one of these - I'll ask guy players what do they preffer.

    I will check the rest of proposes - Dhalsim, Yun and Yang, and make an updated list. I will also start to add the explanations in the list



    Well to be honest the run overhead being adjusted for standing and a vacuum property on u2 would help the most. Comboing into u1 midscreen is already difficult to get the first few hits.
    USF4: Poison/Rose/Decapre
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  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭
    Emanuelb wrote: »
    Alright, I'm back . I see they changed forum layout, I kinda hate it. Let's see:
    Eternal wrote: »
    Still need to get rid of this:

    Dhalsim
    - cr. LK: +3 hitstun (-3)
    - cr. MK: +3 hitstun (-2)

    FAR too good and I've discussed why. Sim can space those to be plus on hit already, they are only negative on hit at point blank.

    Rose's slide is -3F on hit, Guy's is -5F on hit if he gets the far slide, Cody's is -3F on hit, Ibuki's is -5F on hit. Sim's slides not only are faster but lower the hurtbox more than any of those except Ibuki (who has a insanely low hurtbox low enough to slide under a low tiger shot.)

    At point blank c.LK can already be canceled on hit preventing it from being -6F. It's the ONLY special cancelable slide in the game and it is a 3F startup. c.MK slide goes farther, has a better hurtbox, less recovery, and less startup than Rose or Cody's slide.

    Out of all of Sim's changes those are the only 2 I flat out disagree with.

    I still disagree with Gouken's cr.MP - 80damage, s.LP - 40 damage and ESPECIALLY Gohadoken - 65 damage. The rest I think are ok. I'd like to see some other changes possibly.

    Sagat:
    - Ex: reduce the start up with 1 frame (6)

    No. The move is an armor breaker, moves extremely fast and covers most of the screen, is airborne, has only 13F recovery on whiff, and is only -1F on block at point blank and is up to ~+5-8F on block if you do it far away. Other changes look fine but that one I have a problem with.

    Take that buff away add +5 damage to low tiger shot or +10 damage to HP Tiger Upper for the first 3 active frames (Tiger Uppers all do increased damage after the first 3F but only do 120 damage before that)

    Yang
    - M, H Palm Strike: hitbox active period +3 frames (12)

    I have no problem with this change HOWEVER. I'm not certain that the Yang players that requested it fully understand how that would affect him. Adding 3F to the active period changes his frame advantage on block. MP Palm goes from -7F on block to -10F on block and HP goes from 0F to -3F on block.

    If they are ok with that then fine, I just want to be sure they understand that adding active frames changes the move in more ways that appears at first glance.

    Dhalsim: sim players wanted his slides to be safe on hit. You think adding +2 hitstun would be ok ? (-4/-3). Or these changes should be removed, and replaced ?

    Sagat: EmblemLord said Ex TK is kinda useless, he wanted something in order to be better/different than regular TKs. I'll check it out another option.

    Yang: a couple of Yang players wanted the active frames back. This way it would still be worse than in AE, where it was 13 active fr
    Shinebox wrote: »
    I also do not agree with buffing any of Ryu's normals. His slowest normal starts up in 5f and he can combo into UKD on crouching characters.

    Speaking of, are you changing the total frame count on Ryu's fireball? Either way, by changing it to 12F start up he can get away with blocked cr.MK > HP fireball on characters like Rose and Guile and not worry about getting punished. Think about that one.

    Well, cr lk buff was something I found in Ryu's forums.
    Regarding his FB, I wanted to strenghten the zoning game, so I made his fireball better, even if his zoning is really great, since many characters can avoid it, it's not that great.

    I'm not opposing removing these buffs, it's just I really don't know what to give to Ryu, and I feel kinda bad leaving him empty handed.
    "Minimal changes are the best" Seth changes I would make in 2013:
    • All head stomps gain 3 active frames ( 3f > 6f )
    • MK Hyakuretsukyaku stun lowered by 50 ( 0+150 > 0+100 )
    • HK Hyakuretsukyaku damage lowered by 10 on first hit ( 20+130 > 10+130 )
    • LP Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 100 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+50 )
    • MP Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 50 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+100 )
    • EX Spinning Pile Driver stun lowered by 50 on second hit ( 50+150 > 50+100 )
    • Yoga Teleport recovery reduced by 2f ( 48f > 46f)
    • Super hit box fixed so all characters can hit Seth when he doesn't have invincibility frames reliably (how it is now)
    • Ultra 1 damage lowered by 20 ( 340 > 320 )
    • Ultra 2 damage increased by 30 on final hit ( 0+24x13+60 [372] > 0+24x13+90 [402] )
    • Ultra 2 recovery reduced by 10f ( 104f > 94f )

    Quick summary because I'm tired:
    Head stomps are easier to use in combos
    BnBs do less stun
    Punishes do a little less damage without Ultras
    All 3f punishes outside of HP SPD's range do less stun
    Stun from long range throws is less
    Seth is +3 against normal wake up times after Hyakuretsukyaku ~ PPP teleport (unplinkable and unblinkable, so more like +1 or +2 and still can't do a true block string)
    He can escape easier I guess (can't really think of any situations where 2f teleport recovery makes a difference but worth mentioning cause they do exist)
    Most of the cast is less fucked when Seth activates his Super and they have very little health remaining (still pretty dire usually but now you can blow through it)
    Ultra 1 a little less amazing, Ultra 2 given a reason to use

    No j.HP
    No weird buffs or new tools
    Some stuff Seth users wanted
    Nerfs stun output
    Keeps dive kick salt high

    I'm quite ok with these changes. As long as Seth doesn't become stronger (I don't think he needs), I'm ok with making him more interesting to play. As long as his buffs are acompanied by nerfs, it's fine.

    One question though: why does he needs his stomps buffed ? I see the stomps used a lot in combos (On-line-to-ny...).
    Genistar wrote: »
    Spoiler:

    I think adding Run overhead and Ultra 1 buffs to the curent list is a bit much, guy would be the most buffed character. Luminaire just told me he thinks Guy is top 10. Maybe he is overating him, but guy players tend to think guy doesn't need much and that he is quite good. Maybe removing one buff and replacing with one of these - I'll ask guy players what do they preffer.

    I will check the rest of proposes - Dhalsim, Yun and Yang, and make an updated list. I will also start to add the explanations in the list



    Well to be honest the run overhead being adjusted for standing and a vacuum property on u2 would help the most. Comboing into u1 midscreen is already difficult to get the first few hits.
    USF4: Poison/Rose/Decapre
    Persona 4: Chie,Naoto
    VF5FS: Sarah
  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭
    Sim:
    - I don't think Sim's slide should be buffed AT ALL and the reasons have already been given.
    Yang:
    - I dont see how it would be considered worse if the palm has 1F difference between AE version and the one they want now. It would still be VERY good, like it was before. If they really want that much active frames I would suggest either reducing the hitbox size in exchange for that. Or maybe just give this to the EX version. But from my point of view the palm was very retarded when you were in the corner
    Ryu
    - The cr.lk buff for Ryu would mean nothing. I dont think we should buff anything not necessary to avoid problems later on. Ryu isn't suppose to have a REALLY great zoning game, the fact that he has a DP and good startup + recovery on it makes it already very good. He's suppose to be a J.O.A.T. His only problem is that 1- People are use to fight against him 2- He doesn't excel at anything compare to some character. If people want to buff Ryu they should think with this mindset.

    I think that Guy is definitely up there. Maybe not top 10 but I absolutely don't see him below mid tier.
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  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,304 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Ryu
    EX FB - 60*60 instead of 50*50 this means his damage on corner EX FB to Ultra will go up by 20
    Solar Plexus strike damage up by 20 which means it will do the same amount of damage as it did in super
    cr.MK remove the hurtbox added in AE
    Post edited by Shinebox on
  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭
    I kinda think guy is higher in the mid tier part of the tier list for some reason... The current tier list needs to be trashed and redone imo...
    USF4: Poison/Rose/Decapre
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    VF5FS: Sarah
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭
    Head stomps went from active until ground (basically like a dive kick that doesn't alter trajectory but has 7f recovery on landing) to 3f in AE, which is a massive decrease (obviously.) While being active that long was definitely not something that should have stayed, 3f is a little too short. As a result, using the move in certain combos is often needlessly difficult (and sometimes even impractical.) Usually those involving DP FADC and some characters after Hyakuretsukyaku in the corner (ie Guy.) Most Seth players have wanted this change, even if it might turn into an indirect nerf to his instant overhead (reversals that previously caught hurt box during active frames may start working again.)
    stuff about palm
    The way I want it would make MP Palm keep it's current active frames and give the additional frames to HP Palm only. That being said, Yun's palm has 13 active frames in 2012 anyway and it even recovers faster (also +1 on block vs Yang's 0.) Yun might not have the fast palm but he does have the feint. Yet most people aren't making it out to be as much of a problem as it was in AE. And every other nerf Yang's palms got would still be around.

    Giving it to EX would be kind of stupid since that's effectively a "useless" buff. Yang still turns gold and the move still doesn't come out for 25f after being input. Add three active frames and he's still -10 on block. While a frame perfect meaty (keep in mind Yang is gold as fuck and needs 40f to set this up) would be a staggering +6. While HP Palm (as is) when blocked is 0 and a perfect meaty +9 (+8?) Also starting up 3f faster and not being gold, meaning you might be doing a feint. Finally, nobody is gonna use a 25f move in footsies for a bar that's -10 on block and you might as well use EX Rollkicks if you're looking to stop projectiles.
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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if the purpose of a palm buff is really to buff him against grapplers, how about he just get buffed in other areas that dont beat up on cornered characters with bad reversals anyway.

    like buff his cr.mk so it doesnt lose at most ranges to gief st.mp. or buff the horizontal range on his dp so its not so easy to empty jump. or make his st.rh have less recovery. doesnt have to be palm
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭
    Changing cr.MK to combat Zangief's fst.MP would be ridiculous. The only feasible change would be reducing the hurt box near the end of Yang's leg, but even that would rock the hell out of a lot of character's normals. (side note: I consider reverting Ryu's cr.MK to be just as ridiculous. Active frames or hit box, choose.) Buffing his DP hit box wouldn't do much unless they make the move look ridiculous (which is not something I actually oppose, but it's not a change I would say only Yang should get either.) Shorter recovery on fst.HK would help but Zangief still gets a free SPD on block unless Yang somehow manages to wall him out at a perfect distance (which is unlikely because the recovery probably isn't getting lowered to the point that Zangief can't hop and fuck you up for overusing it.) But then everybody who doesn't have a decent poke is probably gonna get destroyed by Yang's st.HK alone then.

    Palm buff is basically the best way to approach the match up on top of the other changes (particularly st.LK, st.MP, and DP FADC.) I obviously need better glasses though because Yun's palm is active for 10f (EX is 13f.)
    Maybe change MP and HP Palm like this:
    - no changes to active frames (9f > 9f)
    - MP Palm recovery reduced by 1 (17f > 16f, -7 > -6, 0 > +1)
    - HP Palm start up increased by 1 (22f > 23f)
    - HP Palm recovery reduced by 2 (15f > 13f, same as it is during Super)
    - HP Palm block stun reduced by 2 (prevents HP Palm from being +2 on block)

    so basically it's harder to whiff punish like it was in AE but won't fuck up characters as badly with it's active frames (...I guess!)
    "This game is garbage." Why do you play it?
    "Because the other garbage is cold." So you just like garbage.
  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,155
    edited February 2013
    how bout just buff his f st mp to retarded proportions

    This thread and the tier list thread are almost talking about the same things and its confusing the fuck out of me.
    Post edited by AmigoOne on
  • JulperoJulpero Joined: Posts: 759 ✭✭
    I really really disagree on buffing palms. Too many characters in the game who'd be helpless in the corner against it. He's already got two buttons that beat Gief's standing medium punch. Standing fierce and crouching fierce. They both have great active frames and hitboxes, but both are so slow that you really can't use them reliably against Gief's st. mp, since that move lasts only 16 frames in total.

    I'd rather have a list of changes like this:

    -Far fierce: 9 frame start-up, 3 active frames and 16 frames of recovery. One less active frame but better recovery.
    -Crouching fierce: 7 frame start-up and 12 frames of recovery. Sure 12 frames sounds like it has no recovery at all but you have to consider the fact that there's the five frames after the first hit whiffs so it's very whiff-punishable still. Those are the buffs I'd give him to help against Gief.
    -Far medium punch back to how it was
    -St. lk back to 3 frame start-up or at least 4 frames
    -Remove the added recovery from the lk version of divekick and maybe change it's hitbox to be a better cross-up tool. It's pretty useless now outside of the corner since it can only hit you chest high and leaves you at minus frames. It also would improve mix-ups with command throws if you could empty dive throw again. Now it's way too slow for that. The reason I wouldn't buff the other versions is that imo he'd be too good against fireball characters then.
    -Lk DP being -4 on fadc should be changed to -2
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭
    Ok, regarding Dhalsim:

    I understand some of you think buffing his slides is not a good thing, so I drop cr lk and cr mk buffs.
    Instead, I found some sugestions for replacement:

    - air teleport: reduce recovery with 5 frames (25)
    - Yoga tower: can be canceled into from close normals
    - Ex Yoga flame: 5 invincible frames on start up (anti divekicks)
    - Yoga Fire: reduce start up with 1 frame (13)
    - bring back the damage from Super

    What do you think should be the best for Sim ? Pick 2 options (or dmg + 1 option) - whichever you think is the best (and not broken).
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Who the hell suggested 5F recovery reduction on air teleport? You wanna know how to break a character? That is one way. Air teleport is already insanely good. That would make it only have 1F where it is vulnerable. ONE.

    Consider this: The move has ZERO height restriction and all of his back+punch airborne attacks are 6F startup. Now a setup that is already strong (yoga fire - IATeleport - b.HP) is not only unpunishable, but also damn near unblockable since you have even less time to figure out which direction to block.

    I could see lowering his ground teleport recovery seeing as it has 2F less invincibility than Seth's Yoga Teleport but the same frame count. But his air teleport is one of the best moves in the game already. Buffing his air teleport is flat out dumb.

    EX Yoga Flame 5F invincibility seems odd, it has no invincibility as it is and a 14F startup. Do you mean EX Yoga Blast? If so I could see that, adding 1F to bring it up to 5F would mean it would be invincible on it's first active frame which would help.

    Yoga fire startup I dunno. I'm ambivalent on the idea.

    The cancel Yoga Tower off of close normals would be interesting. I'd like to see how that would effect him overall, I'm really not sure how good that would be AT ALL.

    Didn't you already give him back his damage from Super?

    As for buffing his slides, the thing is that as I said: ALL slides are negative on hit or block and require proper spacing. Dhalsim actually has nearly the best ability to potentially make his slides safe since c.LK is special cancelable at the start and c.MK goes pretty far and has a lot of active frames. There is no reason to buff his c.LK or c.MK frames. c.HK slide is ironically one I could see reducing the recovery on or increasing the block stun slightly but is the one they didn't request.

    If you ask me, the only slides that need buffs right now are Cody's (slightly smaller hurtbox or farther forward movement), Guy's (more damage on the far version that doesn't cause a hard knockdown.) and Gouken's (The demon flip slide should be as good as Akuma's or at least close to it.)

    And even then buffing those slides aren't at the top of the buff list for any of those characters.
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  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭
    No, it was Ex flame - I'm not sure either how much help would be 5 frames of inv.
    I only gave him back a part of his damage.

    About Sagat's Ex TK: Emblem said this move is kinda wasted, so he wanted some improvment - if not the startup, he also said something about adding some invincibility frames so it helps as a reversal.
    What do you think about giving it 5 frames of invincibility ?
    The 3rd option was adding more dmg.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭
    IMO the only buff I could see is changing the damage distribution to make it do more damage if only the last 2 hits connect or a slight increase the hitbox on the last 6F where the hitbox decreases by about half for no reason.

    In relation to Sagat's other tools maybe it seems worthless. For the game as a whole though? It's extremely fast, 180 damage 200stun, safe on block, airborne, goes over lows, knocks people full screen, armor breaking and can be comboed into ultra.

    It's basically Makoto's EX Hayate except faster, airborne, safe on block, and more damaging/stun. No wait bad example. Ok it's basically Yun's lunge punch except faster, more damaging, and better at going over lows. No wait.. hmm

    See my point? For Sagat's gameplan? Sure it has issues. For a move on it's own though, buffing it potentially gives Sagat an INSANELY good tool that can be abused and be very difficult for certain characters to deal with, some of which may already have trouble with Sagat's zoning.
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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Changing cr.MK to combat Zangief's fst.MP would be ridiculous. The only feasible change would be reducing the hurt box near the end of Yang's leg, but even that would rock the hell out of a lot of character's normals. (side note: I consider reverting Ryu's cr.MK to be just as ridiculous. Active frames or hit box, choose.) Buffing his DP hit box wouldn't do much unless they make the move look ridiculous (which is not something I actually oppose, but it's not a change I would say only Yang should get either.) Shorter recovery on fst.HK would help but Zangief still gets a free SPD on block unless Yang somehow manages to wall him out at a perfect distance (which is unlikely because the recovery probably isn't getting lowered to the point that Zangief can't hop and fuck you up for overusing it.) But then everybody who doesn't have a decent poke is probably gonna get destroyed by Yang's st.HK alone then.

    Palm buff is basically the best way to approach the match up on top of the other changes (particularly st.LK, st.MP, and DP FADC.) I obviously need better glasses though because Yun's palm is active for 10f (EX is 13f.)
    Maybe change MP and HP Palm like this:
    - no changes to active frames (9f > 9f)
    - MP Palm recovery reduced by 1 (17f > 16f, -7 > -6, 0 > +1)
    - HP Palm start up increased by 1 (22f > 23f)
    - HP Palm recovery reduced by 2 (15f > 13f, same as it is during Super)
    - HP Palm block stun reduced by 2 (prevents HP Palm from being +2 on block)

    so basically it's harder to whiff punish like it was in AE but won't fuck up characters as badly with it's active frames (...I guess!)

    about the crmk. i wasnt saying make it longer. just make it so i dont get slapped in the face when my character model is under it already. and he cant spd rh on block now unless you tosd it out point blank. reducing the recovery would just make it less of a risk vs predicted jump ins
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  • Axl_m4sterAxl_m4ster This is how I look like, don't make fun Joined: Posts: 2,423
    i've said this 1000x before but....please capcom, give juri much faster wake up. her health is too low and she's gets stunned too easily.
    you can't say that if someone gets in on her that its the juri players fault they lost for allowing their opponent to get in on her coz we aren't playing sf2. we're playing sf4.
    in this game fireballs don't have the significance they useta have.
    almost every character in the game has a special move that can get past fireballs. not to mention every character can fadc past them. at some point in a round the oppont is going to get in.
    since juri doesn't have any good get off me dp special move...then please capcom stop trolling every juri user in the world with this painfully slow zangief type wake up.
    give me dee jay's wake up speed and i'm happy.
    :)
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  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    you can stuff juris ex pinwheel on wake up
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr.PaVy-RD wrote: »
    you can stuff juris ex pinwheel on wake up

    but then she still has back dash and the counter thing into dive kick across the screen away. with deejay, most characters just do some kinda crouching attack and maybe an OS to cover backdash and he can never hit you unless you jump

    DWU fucked my bitch
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HNIC Mike wrote: »
    Mr.PaVy-RD wrote: »
    you can stuff juris ex pinwheel on wake up

    but then she still has back dash and the counter thing into dive kick across the screen away. with deejay, most characters just do some kinda crouching attack and maybe an OS to cover backdash and he can never hit you unless you jump
    believe me im against buffing her since she can completely destroy my main (dudley) i cant jump on her since he has a stupid hitbox on her AA and her counter is good.
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

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  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    on the other hand why does goukens air parry thing absorb 2 hits?
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

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  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,155
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭
    Dee Jay can hit you if you insist on trying to meaty him without a set up, but those options are very unsafe and can't be cancelled (as well as costing meter/revenge gauge.) Gouken's air parry does not absorb two hits but most moves that hit twice only against armored attacks/on block will not hit twice if they aren't done at the right time (ie first hit of Seth's DP.)

    I think Juri had a stealth change when AE came around to help her wake up anyway. EX Senpusha used to get wrecked by Seth's Tanden Engine in Super as long as you stayed clear of Juri's throw range (leaving her with holding up or reversal Ultra.) Can't be in range of EX Senpusha in AE/2012 when she does it or you get smacked out of the Engine (still works outside of this range, but much easier to see.) If U1 is active it won't work at all but most people know that change.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr.PaVy-RD wrote: »
    on the other hand why does goukens air parry thing absorb 2 hits?
    AmigoOne wrote: »
    It shouldn't. Proof?

    It doesn't. I just double checked this Only 1 hit is absorbed. Personally I think that a good (or at least interesting) change would be to make it so that his air parry absorbs 3 hits when done from an EX Demon flip.
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  • DirtySumoDirtySumo Joined: Posts: 16
    edited February 2013
    and give Honda "steroid headbutt" :P for two meter gauge , that goes through firewall ,so that he can have a chance against characters wid good fireball recovery.

    and about ryu getting guile-like fireball recovery, i agree with Mr. X, you Sir have lost your mind :p
    Post edited by DirtySumo on
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  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭
    Eternal wrote: »
    Mr.PaVy-RD wrote: »

    It doesn't. I just double checked this Only 1 hit is absorbed. Personally I think that a good (or at least interesting) change would be to make it so that his air parry absorbs 3 hits when done from an EX Demon flip.

    I would make it more scary and make it completely invincible after the 1st hit
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DirtySumo wrote: »
    and give Honda "steroid headbutt" :P for two meter gauge , that goes through firewall ,so that he can have a chance against characters wid good fireball recovery

    Someone needs to make a fan art of Hacker Honda with him sitting at a desk hundred hand typing.
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  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eternal wrote: »
    Mr.PaVy-RD wrote: »
    on the other hand why does goukens air parry thing absorb 2 hits?
    AmigoOne wrote: »
    It shouldn't. Proof?

    It doesn't. I just double checked this Only 1 hit is absorbed. Personally I think that a good (or at least interesting) change would be to make it so that his air parry absorbs 3 hits when done from an EX Demon flip.
    thats insane No way would capcom consider that lol
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

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  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,304 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Shinebox wrote: »
    Ryu
    EX FB - 60*60 instead of 50*50 this means his damage on corner EX FB to Ultra will go up by 20
    Solar Plexus strike damage up by 20 which means it will do the same amount of damage as it did in super
    cr.MK remove the hurtbox added in AE

    I would also like to add

    EX SRK damage up to 160 from 140 (chip damage remains the same). Right now HP does 160

    Post edited by Shinebox on
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    The reason HP does more is because it can't be FADC'd. Ryu's EX DP is invincible all the way up to 16F (only 1F short of the entire active frames), 3F startup (unlike Ken's), 140 damage/200stun, FADCable on hit or block, hits twice with not enough of a gap to focus backdash between the first and second hit so basically an armor breaker.) Has a good hitbox, has a fairly decent travel arc, is way too high to actually just jump over it like some characters anti airs (Cody's HK Ruffian, Makoto's fukiage, Juri's EX Pinwheel. ect ect)

    I think buffing EX DP is trying to fix something that isn't broken in the first place. His EX DP is perfectly fine as it is. I'm sure there are better buffs that address actual issues with Ryu in terms of damage or consistency or any other number of problems Ryu may have.

    I'm not opposed to giving Ryu better/more buffs I just think that buffing things that are already extremely good (Ryu's EX DP, Yang's Palm strike, Cody's EX Ruffian Kick, Sagat's EX Tiger Knee, Dhalsims slides and air teleport, ect.) are not going to fix the any problems that the character has but will instead just make more lopsided matchups due to either risk vs reward changes or simply the inability of another character to get around one particular move.

    That is my opinion though.
    Post edited by Eternal on
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  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,304 ✭✭✭✭
    Eternal wrote: »
    The reason HP does more is because it can't be FADC'd. Ryu's EX DP is invincible all the way up to 16F (only 1F short of the entire active frames), 3F startup (unlike Ken's), 140 damage/200stun, FADCable on hit or block, hits twice with not enough of a gap to focus backdash between the first and second hit so basically an armor breaker.) Has a good hitbox, has a fairly decent travel arc, is way too high to actually just jump over it like some characters anti airs (Cody's HK Ruffian, Makoto's fukiage, Juri's EX Pinwheel. ect ect)

    I think buffing EX DP is trying to fix something that isn't broken in the first place. His EX DP is perfectly fine as it is. I'm sure there are better buffs that address actual issues with Ryu in terms of damage or consistency or any other number of problems Ryu may have.

    I'm not opposed to giving Ryu better/more buffs I just think that buffing things that are already extremely good (Ryu's EX DP, Yang's Palm strike, Cody's EX Ruffian Kick, Sagat's EX Tiger Knee, Dhalsims slides and air teleport, ect.) are not going to fix the any problems that the character has but will instead just make more lopsided matchups due to either risk vs reward changes or simply the inability of another character to get around one particular move.

    That is my opinion though.


    Then every character is perfectly fine the way they are and the Top tier should get nerfed just like they do in every version update
  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,155
    Eternal wrote: »
    Personally I think that a good (or at least interesting) change would be to make it so that his air parry absorbs 3 hits when done from an EX Demon flip.

    I don't even get why it would need to go past 2 hit absorb. And even then that buff would only address like... a couple moves out of the entire cast. I can't think of any applications of it at all. It can still be punished by sweep, jabs, grabs, air grabs, and armor breakers. Enlighten me.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭
    Eternal wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to giving Ryu better/more buffs I just think that buffing things that are already extremely good (Ryu's EX DP, Yang's Palm strike, Cody's EX Ruffian Kick, Sagat's EX Tiger Knee, Dhalsims slides and air teleport, ect.) are not going to fix the any problems that the character has but will instead just make more lopsided matchups due to either risk vs reward changes or simply the inability of another character to get around one particular move.
    That is my opinion though.

    One thing you need to consider is weaknesses also makes a character unique, they are a part of the archetype. Honda IS supposed to have trouble against fireballs - you change this and you changed the character. Zangief is supposed to have trouble getting in, Bison bad antiairs, Cody bad wakeup, etc, etc. This is what makes characters unique, makes them different.
    If you cover all of their waeknesses, then you make them more similar, and I don't think this is what we want (at least I don't).

    So, naturally, you will have to buff some things that are already strong sometimes, especially in cases like Ryu, where I'm not sure if he has a weakness. And I don't think it's wrong, we are improving their own game - ex. Ryu's zoning - and not make everybody a jack of all trades (unless they are suppose to be one).
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  • Lion_JakLion_Jak Joined: Posts: 828 ✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Dee Jay can hit you if you insist on trying to meaty him without a set up, but those options are very unsafe and can't be cancelled (as well as costing meter/revenge gauge.) Gouken's air parry does not absorb two hits but most moves that hit twice only against armored attacks/on block will not hit twice if they aren't done at the right time (ie first hit of Seth's DP.)

    I think Juri had a stealth change when AE came around to help her wake up anyway. EX Senpusha used to get wrecked by Seth's Tanden Engine in Super as long as you stayed clear of Juri's throw range (leaving her with holding up or reversal Ultra.) Can't be in range of EX Senpusha in AE/2012 when she does it or you get smacked out of the Engine (still works outside of this range, but much easier to see.) If U1 is active it won't work at all but most people know that change.
    Stealth throw invincibility on start up since AE.

    Most juri's just want full start up invincibility for ex pinwheel. Maybe even to the second hit(my wish).

    I think cr.mk to fireball store should be a true block string always.

    Other juris want a buff to U2 still... Like I understand the complaint when you connect a raw U2 but characters still fall out. Thats dumb and could be annoying I guess.
    Post edited by Lion_Jak on
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HNIC Mike wrote: »
    Mr.PaVy-RD wrote: »
    you can stuff juris ex pinwheel on wake up

    but then she still has back dash and the counter thing into dive kick across the screen away. with deejay, most characters just do some kinda crouching attack and maybe an OS to cover backdash and he can never hit you unless you jump
    Yeah deejay has a bottom 5 backdash coupled with a reversal that loses to meaty cr.short. No bueno.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I dunno about Bottom 5 but it's pretty mediocre.

    Cody = #1 worst by a significant margin.
    Dry Hakan = almost exactly as bad as Cody in terms of distance but is airborne for 6F longer than Cody and has 1F faster to recover (unless Cody cancels into one of his many unsafe special moves which cuts off 3F of recovery bringing it down below Drykan)
    Gouken = Significantly better recovery but still pathetic range and has 9F grounded recovery frames (Compared to Cody's laughably bad 16F grounded recovery frames)

    Then you have THawk, Gief, Sagat, then Ken and maybe Ryu THEN Deejay. Frame data wise it's the same as a shoto but it goes about 8-10% farther. It's hardly ideal, especially compared to other characters who play a similar sort of game as deejay.

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  • thebestthebest #cosmos Joined: Posts: 6,652 ✭✭✭✭
    give yun less recovery on a whiffed dive kick.
  • the saviourthe saviour Joined: Posts: 170
    yuns dive kicks are fair now imo. cammy's EX is too powerful though. (instant, can do it from jump back, no recovery, beats 90% of normals for counter hit 300+ damage, stuffs reversals, combo's into ultra, combo's into itself 3 times, plus on block, ambig crossup...bla bla bla)
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Shinebox wrote: »
    Then every character is perfectly fine the way they are and the Top tier should get nerfed just like they do in every version update
    Emanuelb wrote: »
    One thing you need to consider is weaknesses also makes a character unique, they are a part of the archetype. Honda IS supposed to have trouble against fireballs - you change this and you changed the character. Zangief is supposed to have trouble getting in, Bison bad antiairs, Cody bad wakeup, etc, etc. This is what makes characters unique, makes them different.
    If you cover all of their waeknesses, then you make them more similar, and I don't think this is what we want (at least I don't).

    So, naturally, you will have to buff some things that are already strong sometimes, especially in cases like Ryu, where I'm not sure if he has a weakness. And I don't think it's wrong, we are improving their own game - ex. Ryu's zoning - and not make everybody a jack of all trades (unless they are suppose to be one).

    I think you are both misunderstanding me, perhaps I'm not being very clear. There is a gray area. I'm not saying "fix every characters distinct weaknesses" (even though TBH almost all of the top tier have NO distinct weakness other than "10% less health/stun than average" while also having a ton of ways to avoid taking damage or having to deal with mixups) Only Seth has any distinct weakness (slow walk speed prevents him from doing very well in footsies. Thankfully he has a bunch of really dominating normals and multiple ways to basically avoid having to even play the ground based footsie game in the first place.) and Sakura (mediocre wakeup when compared to the rest of the top tier, but still better than about half of the casts options.)

    I'm not saying to fix those things. You can take something that is only "ok" but could really help a character enact their gameplan if buffed (Balrog's level 2 and 3 TAP frame changes, Deejay's MGU, Dhalsim's back+HP on the ground, ect) and something is already very strong in its current form and a staple of the character's best options and making it even stronger (Cody's back MP, Dhalsim's jumping HP, Ryu's hadoken, ect.)

    Basically: Make the mediocre stuff good not the good stuff broken or the weak stuff mediocre.
    Post edited by Eternal on
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  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭
    I think Juri had a stealth change when AE came around to help her wake up anyway. EX Senpusha used to get wrecked by Seth's Tanden Engine in Super as long as you stayed clear of Juri's throw range (leaving her with holding up or reversal Ultra.) Can't be in range of EX Senpusha in AE/2012 when she does it or you get smacked out of the Engine (still works outside of this range, but much easier to see.) If U1 is active it won't work at all but most people know that change.
    Yes, Ex Senpusha is throw invincible through the entire active frames now. Before, it was just during the standard startup invinc. And yeah, I don't think that change ever appeared in any patchlog.
    Why.
  • Darklightjg1Darklightjg1 Dr. SuessLight Joined: Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    yuns dive kicks are fair now imo. cammy's EX is too powerful though. (instant, can do it from jump back, no recovery, beats 90% of normals for counter hit 300+ damage, stuffs reversals, combo's into ultra, combo's into itself 3 times, plus on block, ambig crossup...bla bla bla)

    Everything here is true, except that EX CS does have recovery, so it can be focused or whiff punished during the landing recovery like the twins' divekick if used wrong. It definitely does have more hitstun and blockstun than regular CS though along with all that other stuff. I'm surprised that it's not invincible with the amount of stuff it beats.

    Yang's divekick should get the hitstun to make up for the landing recovery like Yun did.
    Post edited by Darklightjg1 on

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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Everything here is true, except that EX CS does have recovery, so it can be focused or whiff punished during the landing recovery like the twins' divekick if used wrong. It definitely does have more hitstun and blockstun than regular CS though along with all that other stuff. I'm surprised that it's not invincible with the amount of stuff it beats.

    Yang's divekick should get the hitstun to make up for the landing recovery like Yun did.

    EX CS's grounded recovery is only 4F though, it's basically the same as if you did any jumping attack.
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  • Huggy BearHuggy Bear Scoops Häagen-Dazs® Joined: Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭✭
    Cammy would be alright if they just added some throw recovery, Make EX CS less Deity-like and maybe make Spiral Arrow knock them further back to stop instant mixups?

    It's hard trying to justify that though. She needs the TKCS in honesty, she is a rushdown character. But right now the Risk/Reward is hilarious considering the insane amounts of damage she can get from sneezing.
    Logan / Spencer / Gouki

  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,155
    I think reducing the active frames on EX CS or nerfing the hitbox hardcore should do the trick. She can still punish throw tech like a champ and other things, just no fucking derp and punishing for huge damage just for pressing a button when cammy neutral or back jumps, or anytime shes in the air actually. My line of thinking is that itll still be just as good when used intentionally as a throw tech, or mixup, but not something just to throw out there.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭
    Genistar wrote: »
    I kinda think guy is higher in the mid tier part of the tier list for some reason... The current tier list needs to be trashed and redone imo...

    So just because you kinda think "for some reason" that guy is upper mid tier, the tier list needs to be redone. Great.

    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looking at the hitbox data I honestly think we (especially myself) have underestimated how much balance could be achieved simply by tweaking hit/hurtboxes. This is especially apparently on characters like T-Hawk (probably the worst offender of hitbox vs hurtbox ratios and positions) Cody, Blanka, Dudley, Yang, and Vega for instance could all use a once over on at least 1/4th of their normal attacks hurtbox sizes or at least the hitbox placements. Look at the hurt box on Yang's sweep and c.MK: http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_yang01.jpg then compare them to Yun's http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_yun01.jpg

    Or look at Cody's far s.MK, far s.HK, slide, and c.MP http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_cody01.jpg compared to Guy http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_guy01.jpg or Evil Ryu http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_evil_ryu01.jpg

    Or Dudley http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_dudley01.jpg vs Balrog http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_balrog01.jpg

    Or best of all T Hawk http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_thawk01.jpg compared to Zangief http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_zangief01.jpg
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
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