Official SRK Ultra SF4 Rebalance Request Thread

17980828485507

Comments

  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    my god the hit box on dudley is so dumb
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr.PaVy-RD wrote: »
    my god the hit box on dudley is so dumb

    You wanna see dumb? Look at Cody then look at Sakura who has several moves that function similar but significantly faster. far s.MK close s.HP, fj.HK, nj.LP, c.LK, nj.LK, close s.HK, fj.LP, fj.MP, fj.MK
    http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_cody01.jpg http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_sakura01.jpg

    Really though, the only ones that I think are blatently worse than they SHOULD be are Cody's far s.LK and far s.MK which have hurtboxes that are way too large when compared to ANY character with a similar far LK or far MK. (Go look at the hurt/hitboxes for Deejay/Evil Ryu/Akuma/Ken/Sakura/Guy/THawk/Adon/Seth/El Fuerte anyone really who has a move similar to to Cody's far s.MK and the hurtbox is significantly smaller and/or the hitbox at least is outside of the hurtbox even if only a tiny bit.

    Dudley ALL of his LK hitboxes seem to be unintentionally too large, especially his standing LK stuff where the hitbox is pretty pathetic and hurtbox is massive.



    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,875 ✭✭✭
    I can't agree and like someone's post? Travesty. Anyway, I remember how I said I didn't like the listed Twin changes. Now I don't like the ones I listed either (for the Twins.)

    Yun
    - Target Combo 5 can now be used from far standing light punch
    - Target Combo 5 damage reduced to 60 (20+20+32 > 20+20+20)
    - Target Combo 5 stun reduced to 130 (50+50+80 > 50+30+50)
    - EX Zesshou Hohou lifts opponent higher on hit, allowing Yun to juggle into LP Zesshou Hohou or Ultra 1
    - HP Tetsuzan Kou damage increased by 40 (100 -> 140)
    - EX Tetsuzan Kou hit box one square taller during active frames (helps Yun keep people out of the air when LK Nishou Kyaku won't reach)
    - LK Nishou Kyaku invincibility increased by 1f (5f -> 6f)
    - Genei Jin lasts one second longer

    Yang
    - Close and far standing light kick start up reduced by 2f (5f > 3f)
    - Close and far standing hard kick recovery reduced by 4f (18f > 14f)
    - Close and far standing hard kick hit and block stun reduced by 2f (frame advantage on hit would now be -2, on block would now be -6)
    - Crouching light kick hurt box nerf undone
    - Crouching light kick advantage on hit increased by 1f (+4 > +5)
    - Crouching medium kick's hit box now extends to the end of his hurt box (stays the same vertically, horizontal extension near foot)
    - Jumping forward medium kick hit box shifted to the left (allows Yang to cross up everyone but removes the possibility of ambiguous j.MK, dive kick, cross-up dive kick from AE and goes for cross up j.MK or no cross up dive kick fake out instead)
    - Senpuukyakyu advantage on hit increased by 1f (0 > +1)
    - Raigekishuu landing recovery decreased by 2f (6f > 4f)
    - Raigekishuu block stun decreased by 2f (Yang's DKs are a little too safe otherwise, so looking to mitigate here)
    - MP Byakko Soushouda recovery reduced by 1f (17f > 16f)
    - HP Byakko Soushouda meter gain on whiff increased by 10 (10 > 20)
    - Senkyuutai hit box nerfs undone
    - Frame advantage on block after Senkyuutai, FADC forward is now -1 (-4 > -1)
    - Zenpou Tenshin range increased by 0.10 (0.96 > 1.06)
    - EX Zenpou Tenshin range increased by 0.06 (1.19 > 1.25)
    - EX Zenpou Tenshin is now throw invincible from 1-7f (can still be thrown on first active frame until the end of the move)

    "This game is garbage." Why do you play it?
    "Because the other garbage is cold." So you just like garbage.
  • lol im badlol im bad Joined: Posts: 147
    itt we compare yun and yang's c.mk and pretend yang doesn't have rekka

    on a related note, does yang really need s.lk and c.mk buffs? buffered short rekka, bully with 3f +1/4 normal and good walkspeed/air mobility, c.mk whiff punishes better reactively or predictively, can c.mk xx rekka fadc for many positive frames or convert to ultra at longer ranges, make life miserable for characters without 3f normals... I'm all for buffing yang, but this sort of balance requires a lot of care
  • blufangblufang Darkstalker for life Joined: Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bout Rose...I guess currently she can't combo in her super from Soul Satellite? What do you think about making that possible?
    Boycott Ultra SFIV! Supporting garbage, means you'll only get more garbage in the future.

    20th Anniversary of ST EVO 2014 Tournament of Legends 2 Finals
    EVO 2014 ST X-Mania Finals

    20th Anniversary of Darkstalkers Takepon (Morrigan) vs Kaji (Lilith)
    Devil's Playground 3 (05/03/2014)

    20th Anniversary of Marvel, King of Fighters, Tekken, and Killer Instinct


  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭
    I think that should be left alone since she can combo super to soul satellite and i think it would cause the same amount of damage. I would like her super trap back but that wont happen. the first set of changes for yang would help him enough to be viable.
    USF4: *Main* Elena *Subs* Rose/Poison
    Persona 4: Chie,Naoto
    VF5FS: Sarah
  • JulperoJulpero Joined: Posts: 759 ✭✭
    edited February 2013


    Yang
    - Close and far standing light kick start up reduced by 2f (5f > 3f)
    - Close and far standing hard kick recovery reduced by 4f (18f > 14f)
    - Close and far standing hard kick hit and block stun reduced by 2f (frame advantage on hit would now be -2, on block would now be -6)
    - Crouching light kick hurt box nerf undone
    - Crouching light kick advantage on hit increased by 1f (+4 > +5)
    - Crouching medium kick's hit box now extends to the end of his hurt box (stays the same vertically, horizontal extension near foot)
    - Jumping forward medium kick hit box shifted to the left (allows Yang to cross up everyone but removes the possibility of ambiguous j.MK, dive kick, cross-up dive kick from AE and goes for cross up j.MK or no cross up dive kick fake out instead)
    - Senpuukyakyu advantage on hit increased by 1f (0 > +1)
    - Raigekishuu landing recovery decreased by 2f (6f > 4f)
    - Raigekishuu block stun decreased by 2f (Yang's DKs are a little too safe otherwise, so looking to mitigate here)
    - MP Byakko Soushouda recovery reduced by 1f (17f > 16f)
    - HP Byakko Soushouda meter gain on whiff increased by 10 (10 > 20)
    - Senkyuutai hit box nerfs undone
    - Frame advantage on block after Senkyuutai, FADC forward is now -1 (-4 > -1)
    - Zenpou Tenshin range increased by 0.10 (0.96 > 1.06)
    - EX Zenpou Tenshin range increased by 0.06 (1.19 > 1.25)
    - EX Zenpou Tenshin is now throw invincible from 1-7f (can still be thrown on first active frame until the end of the move)

    I think Yang's standing hard kick having the same recovery as bipson's st. mk could be a little too much..

    Also I like this list though I'd like buffs to his less used normals which I proposed earlier. I especially like the cr. LK  change to +5 since that enables combos straight into clst. MP and not only easier combos into cr. LP.
    Post edited by Julpero on
    Gfwl: jholtta
    Psn: julpro

    ssf4 ae 2012: Yang, Gen
    kof 13: Kensou, EX Kyo, Ryo, Takuma, Hwa Jai, Chin
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    from the sound of that yang buff list hes looking stronger than yun lol
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i know this all makes for good discussipn and what not, but i really hope they have smarter guys than us in charge of the changes.
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • AmigoOneAmigoOne Joined: Posts: 1,156
    Well, they get to punch everything in and test to see how well everything works out along with all the hidden buffs and nerfs that they don't want to tell us. If any of us had similar power to do so I'd think we could do a much better job. 
  • Axl_m4sterAxl_m4ster This is how I look like, don't make fun Joined: Posts: 2,423
    Lion_Jak said:
    Dee Jay can hit you if you insist on trying to meaty him without a set up, but those options are very unsafe and can't be cancelled (as well as costing meter/revenge gauge.) Gouken's air parry does not absorb two hits but most moves that hit twice only against armored attacks/on block will not hit twice if they aren't done at the right time (ie first hit of Seth's DP.)

    I think Juri had a stealth change when AE came around to help her wake up anyway. EX Senpusha used to get wrecked by Seth's Tanden Engine in Super as long as you stayed clear of Juri's throw range (leaving her with holding up or reversal Ultra.) Can't be in range of EX Senpusha in AE/2012 when she does it or you get smacked out of the Engine (still works outside of this range, but much easier to see.) If U1 is active it won't work at all but most people know that change.
    Stealth throw invincibility on start up since AE.

    Most juri's just want full start up invincibility for ex pinwheel. Maybe even to the second hit(my wish).

    I think cr.mk to fireball store should be a true block string always.

    Other juris want a buff to U2 still... Like I understand the complaint when you connect a raw U2 but characters still fall out. Thats dumb and could be annoying I guess.

    my point is that juri cant do shit on wake up cept block. she needs a faster wake up to give her more options as to what to do. like there's no point in doing ex counter coz by the time she wakes up shes getting hit by something...most of the time something meaty....ex counter is what 1 frame start up? its still not enough with  such a slow wake up. i cant tell you how many times i'll eat it for trying ex counter on wake up against a jump in.

    makes me say to myself why even try it? it gets me killed more times than it saves me.

    ex pinwheel is trash as a get off me move. then there's her throw which is the worst in the game.

    and again, low health plus easily dizzied plus average attack power plus no close quarters usable special moves to fend off an opponent thats gotten in...which happens all the time in a game where almost every character has at least one special move that can bypass fireballs....c'mon now.

    i mean, zappa from guilty gear and king from kof are zoners but they have fucking options once an opponent gets in.

    juri really doesn't. her throw's hitbox is bs. her ex pinwheel trades with normals many times not in her favor, and ex counter is useless on wake up not to mention it cant counter everything. many specials break it... i dunno even know why anyone thinking its ok for a low health zoner being incapable of fending off an opponent thats gotten is an approvable notion.

    why?

    who says...hey, we need to nerf king's get off me specials...who says that?

    why did capcom developers think its not necessary to give her something.

    i don't even want more invincibilty on ex pinwheel or any changes whatsoever to her move set.

    i just want faster wake up. thats all. nothing else should be changed about her.

    she has no defense...and no offense because compared to alot of the rest of the cast her offense she's below average. or maybe she's average, but with  her low health, its a constant uphill battle. constant uphill. literally my hardest matches are when i use her, my main.

    if i use vega, adon, hakan, gouken, pfft...hell, most of the rest of the cast its never so difficult to win a match against an opponent that has an equal skill level to mine. but man, with juri, i can just barely manage to squeek by a win even if i'm facing off against a less skilled opponent.

    its too much work, its too stressful, to have to play literally flawlessly at all times with her, just to squeek by a win.

    just give us a faster wake up. maybe 5th to 7th fastest.

    then she's viable....imo.


     

    LOGIC AND REASON ARE OVERRATED VIRTUES.
  • RuhitRuhit Joined: Posts: 187
    Lion_Jak said:
    Dee Jay can hit you if you insist on trying to meaty him without a set up, but those options are very unsafe and can't be cancelled (as well as costing meter/revenge gauge.) Gouken's air parry does not absorb two hits but most moves that hit twice only against armored attacks/on block will not hit twice if they aren't done at the right time (ie first hit of Seth's DP.)

    I think Juri had a stealth change when AE came around to help her wake up anyway. EX Senpusha used to get wrecked by Seth's Tanden Engine in Super as long as you stayed clear of Juri's throw range (leaving her with holding up or reversal Ultra.) Can't be in range of EX Senpusha in AE/2012 when she does it or you get smacked out of the Engine (still works outside of this range, but much easier to see.) If U1 is active it won't work at all but most people know that change.
    Stealth throw invincibility on start up since AE.

    Most juri's just want full start up invincibility for ex pinwheel. Maybe even to the second hit(my wish).

    I think cr.mk to fireball store should be a true block string always.

    Other juris want a buff to U2 still... Like I understand the complaint when you connect a raw U2 but characters still fall out. Thats dumb and could be annoying I guess.

    my point is that juri cant do shit on wake up cept block. she needs a faster wake up to give her more options as to what to do. like there's no point in doing ex counter coz by the time she wakes up shes getting hit by something...most of the time something meaty....ex counter is what 1 frame start up? its still not enough with  such a slow wake up. i cant tell you how many times i'll eat it for trying ex counter on wake up against a jump in.

    makes me say to myself why even try it? it gets me killed more times than it saves me.

    ex pinwheel is trash as a get off me move. then there's her throw which is the worst in the game.

    and again, low health plus easily dizzied plus average attack power plus no close quarters usable special moves to fend off an opponent thats gotten in...which happens all the time in a game where almost every character has at least one special move that can bypass fireballs....c'mon now.

    i mean, zappa from guilty gear and king from kof are zoners but they have fucking options once an opponent gets in.

    juri really doesn't. her throw's hitbox is bs. her ex pinwheel trades with normals many times not in her favor, and ex counter is useless on wake up not to mention it cant counter everything. many specials break it... i dunno even know why anyone thinking its ok for a low health zoner being incapable of fending off an opponent thats gotten is an approvable notion.

    why?

    who says...hey, we need to nerf king's get off me specials...who says that?

    why did capcom developers think its not necessary to give her something.

    i don't even want more invincibilty on ex pinwheel or any changes whatsoever to her move set.

    i just want faster wake up. thats all. nothing else should be changed about her.

    she has no defense...and no offense because compared to alot of the rest of the cast her offense she's below average. or maybe she's average, but with  her low health, its a constant uphill battle. constant uphill. literally my hardest matches are when i use her, my main.

    if i use vega, adon, hakan, gouken, pfft...hell, most of the rest of the cast its never so difficult to win a match against an opponent that has an equal skill level to mine. but man, with juri, i can just barely manage to squeek by a win even if i'm facing off against a less skilled opponent.

    its too much work, its too stressful, to have to play literally flawlessly at all times with her, just to squeek by a win.

    just give us a faster wake up. maybe 5th to 7th fastest.

    then she's viable....imo.


     

    Ummm, are you sure you know how to play Juri and it's not just you? I'm not trying to offend you, she's quite hard to play, but she is NOT as bad as you say, not even close, just calm down, and down-back, there's quite a few characters with no wake-up options. Not everyone needs a wakeup DP. Her kara throw is fine. Also, I don't understand what you mean by faster wakeup, do you mean simply waking up FASTER after being knocked down? I don't see how that would help her much, it would just annoy people and force them to find different safejumps against her, but idk how much it would help in her metagame. People would just get used to it and just make the slight adjustments to their setups.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    m16ghost said:
    Comparing hitboxes images is misleading. By all accounts, Gief's st.mp and Bison's st.mk look terrible, but we know that isn't true.
    That is a fair point and I wish there was a hitbox display in-game so that I could more easily explain why those moves are so good seeming despite having (still decent but not amazing) hitboxes. And also why moves like Fei Long's c.HP are so difficult to punish despite their apparently large hurtboxs yet moves like Cody's far s.HK are so easy to whiff punish with a fast move despite a comparitively good hurtbox size.

    Hurtboxes and hitboxes are attached to limbs as most of you know. However what many people don't know is that outside of when a move is specific designated for certain hurtboxes the game reverts to using default size hurtboxes that use the characters model as a basis. This means that some characters hurtboxes remain extended or even become larger during the recovery of a move while others become smaller. Cody's far s.HK and far s.MK for instance have large hurtboxes designated all the way up until the end of the active frames, the moment the active frames end the move reverts to a default hurtbox but in both cases Cody's recovery remains in an extended limb position for a long time. Zangief's far s.MP only has that large hurtbox for 2F ONLY the active frames are remotely large. Immediately after the active frames end the move reverts to default hurtboxes along the model. However since Zangief only has his arm extended during the active portion it is extremely hard to punish or stuff the attack. This is a flaw with how the game handles hurtbox positioning using 3D models compared to how hurtboxes are handled in 2D sprite games where hurtboxes are much more carefully controlled by the developer.

    M. Bison's far s.MK has the hurtbox extended for 2F after the active period ends and then defaults to hurtboxes based on the model. However once again, M. Bison pulls his leg back fairly quickly and most of the recovery frames has his animation closer to his neutral standing hurtbox size.

    This is also why it's fairly easy to punish or stuff Ryu's far s.MK despite it's hurtbox/hitbox being pretty good. And also a good argument for adjusting certain characters hurtboxes.

    Funny fact that hardly affects anything: Cody's backwards walking script is 150F long, but only 36F have designated hurtboxes. You can actually see it pretty well here when the guy is repositioning himself sometimes it'll suddenly shift while walking backwards.


    Post edited by Eternal on
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,875 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    [quote]Yang
    - Close and far standing light kick start up reduced by 2f (5f > 3f)
    - Close and far standing light kick damage reduced by 10 (30 > 20)
    - Close and far standing hard kick recovery reduced by 4f (18f > 14f)
    - Close and far standing hard kick hit and block stun reduced by 2f (frame advantage on hit would now be -2, on block would now be -6)

    - Far standing medium punch block stun increased by 1f (-1 > 0)
    - Far standing medium kick advantage on hit increased by 1f (+1 > +2)

    - Crouching medium punch damage increased by 10 [still 60 damage during Sei'ei Enbu] (70>80)
    - Crouching light kick hurt box nerf undone
    - Crouching light kick advantage on hit increased by 1f (+4 > +5)
    - Crouching medium kick's hit box now extends to the end of his hurt box (stays the same vertically, horizontal extension near foot)
    - Jumping forward medium kick hit box shifted to the left (allows Yang to cross up everyone but removes the possibility of ambiguous j.MK, dive kick, cross-up dive kick from AE and goes for cross up j.MK or no cross up dive kick fake out instead)
    - Senpuukyakyu advantage on hit increased by 1f (0 > +1)
    - Raigekishuu landing recovery decreased by 2f (6f > 4f)
    - Raigekishuu block stun decreased by 2f (Yang's DKs are a little too safe otherwise, so looking to mitigate here)
    * Both changes applied to Target combo 1
    - MP Byakko Soushouda recovery reduced by 1f (17f > 16f)
    - MP Byakko Soushouda block stun reduced by 1f (-7 > -6 > -7)
    - HP Byakko Soushouda meter gain on whiff increased by 10 (10 > 20)
    - Senkyuutai hit box nerfs undone
    - Frame advantage on block after Senkyuutai, FADC forward is now -1 (-4 > -1) -2 (-4 > -2)
    - Zenpou Tenshin range increased by 0.10 (0.96 > 1.06)
    - EX Zenpou Tenshin range increased by 0.06 (1.19 > 1.25)
    - EX Zenpou Tenshin is now throw invincible from 1-7f 1-6f (can still be thrown on frame before first active frame until the end of the move)[/quote]

    i guess quoting is gone
    or broken
    or just handled differently
    i dunno whatever
    Post edited by The Breaker on
    "This game is garbage." Why do you play it?
    "Because the other garbage is cold." So you just like garbage.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Boy, you need to settle for a list of changes for twins, I already changed their buffs. I hope tomorrow you don't post another one :D

    Anyway, your list for Yang is way too big. Right now, Yang's buffs looks like this:

    - cr MP: +10 dmg (80)
    - st far and cl. Lk: reduce start up with 2 frames (3)
    - cr. LK: undone the hurtbox nerf from AE
    - Roll Kicks: - return the hitboxes to AE status
    -    - FADC dash puts you at -2
    - Super: +1 second
    - far MP: return the hitbox to the AE status.
    - MP Byakko Soushouda recovery reduced by 1f (17f > 16f)
    - HP Byakko Soushouda meter gain on whiff increased by 10 (10 > 20)

    I think this is enough for Yang

    For Yun:

    - cr MP: +10 dmg (60)
    - Target C.4: +10 dmg (143)
    - H Tetsuzanko: +40 dmg (140)
    - M Nishokyaku: +10 dmg (120)
    - Zesshou Hohou: - H: hurt box flipped so Yun is now invincible from his hat to his fist, but the move is now easy to stuff with low attacks
    - Ex lifts the opponent higher now, allowing LP Zesshou Hohou and Ultra 1 to combo again
    - Super: length of effect + 1 second.
    - L NishouKyaku: invincibility increased by 1f (6)

    Post edited by Emanuelb on
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭
    for Yang I would redistribute the damage on his U1 and U2 so he can benefit more from a combo FACD ultra (for U1 and U2)
    Power is nothing without skill
    R.I.P Joshua Colon (sksksksksk222)
    **Oh god images in signatures--not approving at all >_>!**
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭
    Guys, one thing I would like is you check the buff list before making even more sugestions, and:

    - say what buff you would like to be replaced with your sugestion (if you think it's a better choice)
    - or make a solid case why that character needs even more buffs (the buffs are not enough, too few compared with others, etc)

    Simply stating character X would benefit from buff Y isn't very helpful. People keep coming with sugestions for rose, cody, oni, yang, while all these characters are already buffed hard. So basically I check the sugestions, and pick those who seems to me more interesting, while I ignore the rest. The downside is, I don't know that well many characters, so I might not pick the best choices.

    For example, Breaker made a huge list with buffs for Yang - no way I would include all of them, since Yang would become the most buffed character by far (come on, 6 buffs only for his normals ??)
    Since I think Yang is buffed more than enough, I will also ignore Cerberus sugestion   :P (sorry mate), unless he tells me which buff to be replaced with his sugestion.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    If there is one buff I would like to see Ryu get for sure, it's his cr.MK reverted back to Super. They added a hurtbox in front of it in AE and left it there for 2012, everything else except for the hurtbox was changed back to Super.
    Post edited by Shinebox on
  • Oathkeeper89Oathkeeper89 #1 Saikyo of San Francisco Joined: Posts: 545
    ~Dan~

    -Give him the command throw that was taken out.
    -Alter the properties on his light and medium KRK. As it stands, heavy KRK has the most invincibility on start up which basically negates the usage of any other KRK besides ex. I don't mean to buff all of them, but perhaps distribute the amount of invincibility frames so that Dan has some more options in terms of wake-up and anti-airs.
    -Less damage on medium and heavy Dankyuku.
    -More damage on light Dankyuku.
    -Faster start up on crouching taunt/air taunt.
    -Slightly larger hitbox on crouching taunt/air taunt.
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All i want is for the Twins to be good again and for dudley to be able to stop low pokes :'(
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭
    Shinebox said:
    If there is one buff I would like to see Ryu get for sure, it's his cr.MK reverted back to Super. They added a hurtbox in front of it in AE and left it there for 2012, everything else except for the hurtbox was changed back to Super.
    I don't think that buff would be as meaningful as you think it would be.  In what situations is Ryu getting clipped now where he wasn't before?
  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭
    Emanuelb said:

    Since I think Yang is buffed more than enough, I will also ignore Cerberus sugestion   :P (sorry mate), unless he tells me which buff to be replaced with his sugestion.
    That's alright. I don't really play Yang either but when I see people doing combos into ultra like cr.mk xx rekka x2 fadc cl.mk, forward dash, U1...I don't see the damage being that important. That's why I stated it.

    Concerning Ryu's cr.mk hurtbox, his cr.mk also has 5 active frames. I think the hurtbox is justified.
    Power is nothing without skill
    R.I.P Joshua Colon (sksksksksk222)
    **Oh god images in signatures--not approving at all >_>!**
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,875 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    the yang changes include nerfs, which is why it looks so "big"

    nerfs >
    st.LK damage down by 10
    mp palm block stun decreased by 1 (keeps punish/meaty frames on block)
    dive kick block stun decreased by 2 (keeps current dive kick frame data when blocked)

    cross out means off the table completely
    not listed in the changes i did in that post -> means i consider them off the table, ie i dont want:
    cr.lk hurt box unnerfed
    active frames on palm increased
    super increased
    fst.mp fix box reverted
    etc

    same for yun
    TC5 gets fst buff but loses stun/damage as listed

    anything not listed again = don't really think it should be there after all
    lunge punch modification, cr.mp or mk dp damage buffs, etc.

    regarding ultra damage, u1 is more or less fine as is (rekka fadc doesn't do much but palm works the same distance and leads into 450 territory) but u2 could use some adjustments outside of the animation (hard to figure out though because U2 can combo in the corner without meter to begin with)

    i edit way too much but anyway
    changes i made to yang are basically to make certain combos easier, make footsies workable against really bad mus, and to make people think yang might go for a cross up instead of hitting behind them with a dive kick and landing behind them (but still not counting as a cross up)
    yun changes are basically just making him a little closer to how strong he was without being ridiculously stupid (and to be honest he doesn't really neeeed to be better, but life would be easier in some match ups with said changes)
    Post edited by The Breaker on
    "This game is garbage." Why do you play it?
    "Because the other garbage is cold." So you just like garbage.
  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    m16ghost wrote: »
    Shinebox said:<br />
    If there is one buff I would like to see Ryu get for sure, it's his cr.MK reverted back to Super. They added a hurtbox in front of it in AE and left it there for 2012, everything else except for the hurtbox was changed back to Super.<br />

    <br />
    I don't think that buff would be as meaningful as you think it would be.  In what situations is Ryu getting clipped now where he wasn't before?

    Akuma's sweep other characters cr.MK

    Post edited by Shinebox on
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,159 ✭✭✭✭
    Akuma's cr.mk, too. It has the old Super hitbox. The old Super hitbox can stuff Spiral Arrow ^^
    Steam/GGPO/#Ronline: Coffeeling
    KOF13: Iori/Karate/Kim/Benimaru | GG: Faust | CB: Vritra/Nagar/??? | 3S: Chun-Li | VSav: Zabel | SSBM: Fox
    Resource pack for learning fighting games and/or starting KOF13
  • Mr.PaVy-RDMr.PaVy-RD Joined: Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And put back yun and yangs health/stun back to AE status 
    I block better in Marvel than i do in Streetfighter :(

    3s-Yang/Urien/Dudley
    Ae2012-Yun/Yang/Seth/Ryu/Cody/Dudley
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid Non-stop Climax! Joined: Posts: 19,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They didn't change their health/stun 
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Oh Noes! My Character! Joined: Posts: 7,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They didn't change their health/stun


    stun got changed from 1000 to 950
    DWU fucked my bitch
  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭
    Shinebox said:
    Akuma's sweep other characters cr.MK

    These aren't really situations.  When is Akuma's sweep hitting (or other character cr.mk's) that it wasn't hitting Ryu before?

    The extra hurtbox only appears during the cr.mk's active frames, so clearly Ryu is not getting counter-hit by anything new.  The recovery hurtboxes are the same, so he's not getting punished any differently.  Ryu doesn't move forward during low forward, so he's not running into anything with a lot of active frames.

    So Ryu is losing in situations where cr.mk is active, and at a distance where a normal wouldn't hit him here:

    image

    But would hit him here:

    image

    seems unlikely to be a big problem.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What if they compromised? The hurtbox wasn't actually made larger it was just moved forward (as you can see if you look at the bottom edge of the hurtbox and see that there is a corner section that moves forward an equal amount as the increase in hurtbox.

    Ryu's c.MK is an extremely deadly attack thanks to it being a 5F startup 5F active low that is also special cancel able. As it is, the move flat out beats most of Cody's normals when they are both active at the same time. (not talking counterhits) it goes under his c.MP, his c.LP, his c.LK and c.MK will trade, and his far s.HP/HK/MP/LP all whiff and his far s.LK and MK require PERFECT spacing to tag him (unless Cody is holding the knife, then his far s.MK actually becomes decent at combating his lows because hitbox is better for no apparent reason.)

    Now even with all that for the reasons from the view of how hard that move is for my main to deal with, I'm not opposed to a sort of middle ground between Super and AE2012's hurtbox.

    Here is the value for the hurtbox position from Super:

    X position for the hurtbox on his leg is centered at 0.75

    In AE/AE2012 they moved it to 0.905 which is a .155 increase. What about making the hurtbox positioned at 0.85? That would make the hurtbox almost equal to the hitbox edge I believe.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭
    Emanuelb said:
    I think we've done all the characters tbh.

    USF4: *Main* Elena *Subs* Rose/Poison
    Persona 4: Chie,Naoto
    VF5FS: Sarah
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭
    Give Dan his damn command throw, it's already in the gamefiles anyway!

    Just let me use it , Capcom, damn you! 

    Give it to meeeeeeeeeee
    PSN: SaikyoForever

    Test yourself against Saikyo!

  • OilforthewinOilforthewin new plural? Joined: Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I will give my opinions about those buffs for Hakan.(They are taken from the buff list).
    - EX dry Oil Rocket: - 1,20 range 
    Good idea, that should be kept here, still i feel not that necessary.
    - Oil Rocket: reduce recovery with 3 frames (53)
    Also a good idea, but i think a few more frames should be added to the 3 frames(was thinking about 5-6 frames)
    - f HK: +1 blockstun (-4)
    The move is already good, it can knockdown your opponent when oiled(You can also punish things like E.Hondas blocked Headbutts.) and deals 120 Damage.
    So this buff should be removed.
    - dry EX slide+followup: goes a bit farther and faster     
    I don´t know about that, it might help him to get out easier of certain situations. But it is not useful for punishing moves like Sagat´s fireballs, the fierce version does it even unoiled very well.(Being far away from your opponent means easy time to oil up.)
    - Oil Dive: reduce recovery with 3 frames (54)
    You can actually cancel the move before he jumps, but honestly this is his better command grab in my opinion and your opponent can´t easily punish a whiffed Oil Dive like the Oil Rocket, so not a needed buff.
    - Oil Shower: +1 more second (7-10-13-16)
    Good idea, still there should be in generally less recovery frames for this move (4-6 Frames are enough) and the EX Version should be more rewarding, so when he cancels it into his crouch he should get at least 10 seconds of the oiled status.

    Additionaly i want to add some other buffs, too.
    - Make his cr.lk. special cancelable or  possibility to combo it into his slide, that would be a huge improvement in my opinion.
    - Air Throw gets a damage buff by 10 points(150)
    - His Hakan Tackle(St.MP) gets -4 on block.
    - St.Fierce and Hakan Spear are FADC cancelable.
    - U2 deals unoiled 420 damage, oiled damage stays.
    These are more minor buffs, besides the first one.

    The problem is that Hakan doesn´t need many buffs. He is already a very good character, even if most people would call him a bad character or low tier, he is simply supposed to be good when he is oiled and when he is not oiled then to be bad. To be honest, when he is oiled, i think he doesn´t have to fear anyone here.

    So make it a bit easier(It´s already easy enough to oil up actually) to oil up and a bit safer, then he can use the advantages of being oiled up easier. But when i see some other buffs here for other characters(especially Honda), i get the feeling he needs more buffs to viable.
    Those buffs are what i want to add, so other players might have other ideas in their mind.
    Post edited by Oilforthewin on
    "The man with the largest arms in the world is not hard to find, I'm just hard, just ask my hooches."
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Why does hakan's ddt or spd need to be safe on whiff, I don't really understand that at all.
    Post edited by Veserius on
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭
    I like your proposals, I will add them (at least some of them) to the list. But I don't know about st HP becoming fadcable, it seems very odd. What's the point ?

    I will update the entire list buff and post it here, I just have a hard time adapting to the new forum layout.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • OilforthewinOilforthewin new plural? Joined: Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013

    Veserius said:
    Why does hakan's ddt or spd need to be safe on whiff, I don't really understand that at all.
    Certain command grabs with invincibility frames or less startup have even less recovery frames, so that is why i think he could need lesser recovery frames on a whiffed DDT or SPD. Btw i copied those "buffs" from that buff list,so ask the one, who wrote it down there.

    If Capcoms decides to do a rebalancement, then certain characters will be nerfed pretty hard. I mean this is of course not nice, sure some people will get salty, however some things here have to be nerfed in this game to make it fairer for other characters.

    @EmanuelB: I was thinking about increasing his damage output(It is sometimes very lacking) by making his two fierce attacks FADC cancelable and also make him safer by giving it to him, but it is not a really needed change i feel, because then he would deal some insane damage, in theory.Improvements for his CR.LK and Oil up game is more needed. He can´t combo from a CR.LK into his slide and the CR.LK must be blocked low, so that would improve his knockdown options. His CR.MK is not very useful for pressuring your opponent.
    Post edited by Oilforthewin on
    "The man with the largest arms in the world is not hard to find, I'm just hard, just ask my hooches."
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭
    Veserius said:
    Why does hakan's ddt or spd need to be safe on whiff, I don't really understand that at all.

    Those are UltraDavid proposals. He said Hakan has too mcuh recovery on whiff, so he wanted a reduction. I reduced the recovery to be the same as Zangief's spds.

    @Oilforthewin: well, our idea is to make a buff list for everybody so nobody get nerfed. Instead of nerfing top tiers, buff the rest - I think is more fun and better this way (and I don't really think nerfs are needed).
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not to be a dick, but everyone's getting better normals, more damage on them, better zoning tools (why Ryu needs a better fireball and an even better cr.mk is beyond me) and better escape options, but Zangief can't get his knockdown on EX GH back because it would be too OP? I really don't get it.
    XBL: PenguinShivers

    TLC Shivers.
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Well, first Ex gh kd is a really big buff, much bigger than Ryu having his Fb faster. Second, it is also makes the game more vortex oriented, kinda the opposite of what we want.
    Third, Zangief players need to decide what they want. One time you want Ex gh kd, then you want something else. I went to Gief forum and they didn't mention ex KD, they wanted something else. I think you need to get together and decide what buffs you want, and what kind of Zangief you want, cause I changed Zangief buffs a couple of times.
    I personally preffer Zangief not to get the kd, and the buffs he gets are quite good, also. 
    Post edited by Emanuelb on
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭
    Eternal wrote: »
    What if they compromised?

    My point is that the buff is likely to be a placebo unless you can show it makes a difference in a common situation.

    They made the same "nerf" to Bison's cr.lk and it virtually made no difference in his matchups.

    I can think of a few situations where the changes matter, but they arent common at all. cr.mk loses to Bison's slide now, for example.
  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭
    well I know that Bison's cr.lk change now allows Rose to do far st.mk more often after a blocked scissor kick
    Power is nothing without skill
    R.I.P Joshua Colon (sksksksksk222)
    **Oh god images in signatures--not approving at all >_>!**
  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Emanuelb said:
    Well, first Ex gh kd is a really big buff, much bigger than Ryu having his Fb faster. Second, it is also makes the game more vortex oriented, kinda the opposite of what we want.
    Third, Zangief players need to decide what they want. One time you want Ex gh kd, then you want something else. I went to Gief forum and they didn't mention ex KD, they wanted something else. I think you need to get together and decide what buffs you want, and what kind of Zangief you want, cause I changed Zangief buffs a couple of times.
    I personally preffer Zangief not to get the kd, and the buffs he gets are quite good, also. 
    It is bigger than Ryu having a faster FB, but come on, you're giving Hakan (who is already better than Gief) a good number of buffs, some of them related to the recovery on his moves, and that makes his vortex not only better than Gief's, but also just as safe or safer than his. And I really don't mean this in a dick or ungrateful way, but 10 more damage on SPD's and cr.lp isn't going to cut it, I like the buff on EX GH to make it one hit and armor breaking, but I hardly believe it will a the groundbreaking buff for Gief when everyone's getting better ways to keep him out and shake him off after he's in.

    My 2 cents.
    XBL: PenguinShivers

    TLC Shivers.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭✭✭
    m16ghost said:
    Eternal wrote: »
    What if they compromised?

    My point is that the buff is likely to be a placebo unless you can show it makes a difference in a common situation.

    They made the same "nerf" to Bison's cr.lk and it virtually made no difference in his matchups.

    I can think of a few situations where the changes matter, but they arent common at all. cr.mk loses to Bison's slide now, for example.
    I know that the cr.LK nerf for bison helped Cody fight him a bit better.

    Also: Bison's slide beats Cody's f.HK of all things lol. It's just a wonderful perfect storm: Bison's slide has him technically crouching for the whole duration and f.HK is specifically tagged to not hit croucher, however his pushbox is still too tall for Cody to go over him(even if they made f.HK airborne it still would be this way) and Bison's slide is active for 15F which covers the entire portion of Cody's lower body hurtbox removal. It's pretty funny actually because you'd THINK from how it looks that Cody's f.HK should be a perfect counter to Bison's slide but it works in reverse.

    Not a balance change that needs fixing by any means just something I find funny how some things interact in SF4 contrary to how you'd expect.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭
    Green hand kd means that every time gief gets an EX bar he is practically guaranteed a vortex... that's nuts
    PSN: SaikyoForever

    Test yourself against Saikyo!

  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    He had it in Super and he wasn't broken, he wasn't even considered top tier then.
    It's still a strong buff, but my argument is - I preffer how zangief is right now. But gief players needs to decide what they want.
    Post edited by Emanuelb on
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • Huggy BearHuggy Bear Scoops Häagen-Dazs® Joined: Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭✭
    Okay. Serious list for Gen.
    (m) = Mantis / (c) = Crane THIS IS GOING TO BE EXTENSIVE

    + Slight buff to his meter gain on whiff (Backdash into hands etc. Give him something to do full screen)


    Done.

    Logan / Spencer / Gouki

  • GenistarGenistar BLARG! Joined: Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭
    How is the list looking? Also when will this list be sent?
    USF4: *Main* Elena *Subs* Rose/Poison
    Persona 4: Chie,Naoto
    VF5FS: Sarah
  • EmanuelbEmanuelb Joined: Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭
    Hopefully I will post it tomorrow here :P. About the sending - I don't know, we will check it again, see what the others says about it and then see what can we do to make capcom read our requests.
    SSF4 AE v. 2012 - 2013 Tier List: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

  • chubbyfingerzchubbyfingerz Kore ga Saikyo-ryu da! Joined: Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭
    Hang on cause if you're gonna send it to Capcom I really would like you to consider the following:

    For Dan:

    - A couple more active frames on the gadouken


    That's all.

    Thanks!
    PSN: SaikyoForever

    Test yourself against Saikyo!

This discussion has been closed.