So EVO's done... are DLC chars now unbanned?

F0xhound009

So watched MK for EVO yesterday and I gotta say I was impressed. I think I'm gonna start playin this game more. But my question now is the topic title which the commentators briefly spoke about on stream. Pretty sure Tom Brady said after EVO the DLC characters should be playable at tournaments. It was just for EVO that there was not enough time for people to get used to those matchups.

So yes or no on this? I'm pretty sure alot of people would like to see people play Kenshi and Rain on streams and Freddy Krueger (lol) when he's released.

FROG55JON

yeah and I hope more people give the game a shot like yourself as for DLC's yeah there playable at tournaments

EternityInBlack

Yes, they are now allowed. I think JediRobb on the EVO MK stream even said that for Devastation that the DLC characters were gonna be allowed for tournament play, so I'd imagine other tournaments would allow them too.

Kingface

Be interesting to see how much Skarlet gets represented at tournaments from now on. From what I've read, Tom Brady and others have suggested she is probably A-S tier.

EternityInBlack

Kingface, post: 5659429 wrote:

Be interesting to see how much Skarlet gets represented at tournaments from now on. From what I've read, Tom Brady and others have suggested she is probably A-S tier.

At the hands of a knowledgeable player, Skarlet can definitely be A-S. But I'd imagine that NRS is gonna balance her out so that she'll fall in line with some of the other characters.

Hawkingbird

They should definitely be playable. Other games with DLC characters don't ban them so MK should be no different

Da Boogeyman

Still hoping X-box gets a re-skinned Kratos named Gladiator who just has all his moves. then we could see Kratos at tourneys lol

Tim Static

Even if Kratos was legal, no one would use him because he is garbage in MK9.

EternityInBlack, post: 5659379 wrote:

Yes, they are now allowed. I think JediRobb on the EVO MK stream even said that for Devastation that the DLC characters were gonna be allowed for tournament play, so I'd imagine other tournaments would allow them too.

Devastation is in October. Of course they would be ok by then.

Summer Jam is on August 27th & 28th. Skarlet, Kenshi & Rain are 100%. But only being about 2 1/2 weeks after Freddy, I advise Freddy skips SJ. but we'll see.

Certainly no excuse for a tourney not include all 4 DLC characters anytime after about the 1st week of September.

Justin3201

Tim Static, post: 5675817 wrote:

Even if Kratos was legal, no one would use him because he is garbage in MK9.

Devastation is in October. Of course they would be ok by then.

Summer Jam is on August 27th & 28th. Skarlet, Kenshi & Rain are 100%. But only being about 2 1/2 weeks after Freddy, I advise Freddy skips SJ. but we'll see.

Certainly no excuse for a tourney not include all 4 DLC characters anytime after about the 1st week of September.

Why is Kratos garbage? He can do a free combo after a parry. He can be damaging.

Tim Static

Justin3201, post: 5678315 wrote:

Why is Kratos garbage? He can do a free combo after a parry. He can be damaging.

sure high damage, but his normals are super super slow, defense is weak, popping your opponents guard is harder...you HAVE to get in first, otherwise you dont have a chance unless your playing someone who doesnt know how to play the game. His parry is retarded good, but you cant rely on it.

Tuck

DLC is legal for Sin City Heat next weekend.

strizzmatik

Kingface, post: 5659429 wrote:

Be interesting to see how much Skarlet gets represented at tournaments from now on. From what I've read, Tom Brady and others have suggested she is probably A-S tier.

Pretty sure Kenshi and Rain are just as godlike with their ridiculous options, especially Rain's combo damage alone.

esplover

I'm impressed with all the DLC characters. I can see all of them being at least B tier. I was even more surprised by the fact that Freddy is surprisingly good. Very versatile. :O

Oneirology

DLC characters should be un-banned, they've been out long enough besides Freddy.

Smashbro29

So basically the only banned characters are Freddy and Kratos?

Tim Static

Smashbro29, post: 5712604 wrote:

So basically the only banned characters are Freddy and Kratos?

Kratos is always banned. its up to TO's to determine if they want Freddy this soon, and will some of his damage scaling issues. First large tourney for this is Summer Jam in Philly on August 27th & 28th.

Smashbro29

Why is Kratos always banned? He's terrible.

Azuro

He is a console-exclusive character. He will always be banned for that.

Stuck

I can't wait to see how Kenshi is represented. I'm finally able to main him with some success.

guitalex2007

Unfamiliarity is the name of the game. I doubt Freddy will be allowed as of yet but every other DLC character has been around for a month or so.

I'm still surprised more people aren't familiar with Skarlet yet. She's been around for like 2 months.

Tim Static

Skarlet, Kenshi and Rain are good for Summer Jam V but Freddy will be banned from the tourney until some bugs are worked out. FYI

ApocaLips

Freddy prolly isn't banned because of how soon he came out. This isn't evo.

He's probably banned because of how glitchy and random he is right now. There's no way to deal with the projectile glitch when it shows up, and that seriously screws up some matchups. Ex hell spike resetting damage is also a major issue that throws things off.

guitalex2007

ApocaLips, post: 5742729 wrote:

Freddy prolly isn't banned because of how soon he came out. This isn't evo.

He's probably banned because of how glitchy and random he is right now. There's no way to deal with the projectile glitch when it shows up, and that seriously screws up some matchups. Ex hell spike resetting damage is also a major issue that throws things off.

EX Hell Spike doesn't reset damage. There is still damage scaling going on for the following attacks. Although I'm curious of what projectile glitch you're talking about...

ApocaLips

Yes, damage continues to scale after ex hell spike. However, it scales from 100% rather than wherever your combo left off. That's what a damage scaling reset does.

Try any freddy combo involving ex hell spike. Then try just the part leading up to and including the ex hell spike. Then do the part after it. You'll find that the latter two combo damages add to the same damage as the first combo. That means that scaling is reset when you do ex hell spike.

This is why Freddy has 58% 1 meter bnbs, because he's basically getting the damage of two combos in one. It's the same concept as the DHC glitch in mvc3.

Have you played against freddy for longer than 30 minutes? You should have noticed that projectiles will randomly go right through him. It happens often enough to be an annoying issue even in casuals, and it for sure will affect tournament results.

guitalex2007

ApocaLips, post: 5749592 wrote:

Have you played against freddy for longer than 30 minutes? You should have noticed that projectiles will randomly go right through him. It happens often enough to be an annoying issue even in casuals, and it for sure will affect tournament results.

I don't know. Does playing him nonstop for a week count as 30 minutes? Projectiles go through him during his EX Hell Spike if he hits his first. Not sure if that's a glitch or intended, but with how easily Freddy gets around keep away, it wouldn't surprise me. And I've only seen this happen against Noob. It has not shown up for me otherwise in either version, local or online.

Also, EX Hell Spike does not stop damage scaling. See this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3J0VRve5i0

Forward jump punches are a universal 4%. Watch as the jump punch after EX Hell Spike does only 3%.

BELIEVE ME, EX Hell Spike does nothing to reset damage scaling.

What they could do is make scaling for him more severe after the EX Hell Spike, because it counts as a normal hit. It should count similar to Kitana's EX fans or Sub's freeze and the like is all. It does hold the opponent in place.

ApocaLips

It's not just during ex hell spike. I've had rounds where every single projectile went through him. It happened during the recovery of his teleport and when he was jumping around randomly, 5 or 6 times in one game.

And for damage scaling - NRS openly admitted that his damage scaling is glitched. Jump punches don't behave normally in combos. For example, they add 3% when used as a combo starter to combos despite doing 4% themselves. They work on their own rules.

guitalex2007

ApocaLips, post: 5752931 wrote:

It's not just during ex hell spike. I've had rounds where every single projectile went through him. It happened during the recovery of his teleport and when he was jumping around randomly, 5 or 6 times in one game.

And for damage scaling - NRS openly admitted that his damage scaling is glitched. Jump punches don't behave normally in combos. For example, they add 3% when used as a combo starter to combos despite doing 4% themselves. They work on their own rules.

That's all fine and dandy, but I assure you EX Hell Claw does NOTHING to reset damage scaling. I've gone back to training mode to look at this and again, like I said, EX Hell Claw doesn't reset scaling. At all. In fact, it does the same for scaling as any regular hit would do, and perhaps that's why they should change it considering that it should scale similar to Kitana's fan or Sub's freeze.

Go to practice mode. Select Freddy and do this. Go to the corner and do close Hell Spike, juggle with f+4, 2, 1 and note the damage the 1 does. Just the 1.

Now do EX Hell Claw instead of close Hell Claw. Hit them with f+4, 2, 1 and note the damage of the 1. Is it different?

About the NRS openly admitting things, can you direct me to where this inside information is coming from? I'd like to read this for myself.

ApocaLips

The admissions are on TYM during early discussion. They were referenced in passing by mods.

Your example demonstrates that you don't understand what I'm saying. You'd only see a damage scaling reset in the middle of a combo, not for the start. It doesn't eliminate it altogether from the combo, it only brings it back to 1 when you connect with it.

Here are some hypothetical numbers to explain.

F+4, 2, 1 does 20% damage and the entire string brings the damage scaling modifier to .5. Say enhanced hell spike deals 10% and does not alter the damage scaling modifier.

If things were going normal, F+4, 2, 1, ex spike, F+4, 2, 1 should do 20% + .5(10%) + .5(20%) = 35%.

What happens with ex hell spike is that the multiplier after it's used is raised back to 1 instead of remaining at .5. So the combo erroneously deals 20% + .5(10%) + 20% = 45%.

In game, do any string and cancel it into ex hell spike. Note the damage. Then do another simple string and note the damage. Finally, do both strings together as a combo. You'll see that string 1 (ending in spike) + string 2 deals the same damage as the two combod together. With damage scaling, it's supposed to do less because the second string should be subject to a multiplier <1. This exercise shows that it's not.

guitalex2007

Wait, although that does make sense there's something that's not right with your math.

How can the 3-hit combo scale everything to 50%, when the EX Hell Spike that hits does 8%?

j.p, f+4, 2, 1, EX Hell Spike, dash back, j.p, f+4, 2, 1

It also doesn't make sense for the second jump punch to do 3%, then have the second 1 do 8% (as opposed to the 5 or 10 you're suggesting). Maybe what it does is it moves the modifier back a hit or two? Because the numbers aren't matching here for me.

*turns on console*

OK, the numbers are close but don't match at all in longer combos.

j.p, f+4, 2, 1 is 21%. j.p, f+4, 2, 1, EX Hell Spike is 29%. According to your explanation, C = A + B so the combination should be 50% total, but it's actually 47. Close enough to seem correct, but I tried a much longer combo to test it out again.

Here's a longer combo, in the corner:

j.p, f+4, 2, 1, Close Hell Claw, f+4, 2, 1, EX Hell Claw does 42% damage. If you tack on the 21% combo on that, you get 54%, not 63%.

Or a much longer combo:

j.p, b+1, 2, u+1, Nightmare Stance, 1, Nightmare Stance, 1, f+4, 2, 1, EX Hell Claw does 41%, but the followup that should add 21% only gets it to 55%, for 14%.

It's DEFINITELY not reset. Maybe the combo uses a previous scaling number (not familiar with the exact numbers), but it is definitely not 1, as these last examples prove.

Hmm... so mid length combo, the 21% damage combo only does 14%... that's a 66.66% modifier... so in the longest combo, 21% combo does 9% less than expected... that's a 4/7 modifier, 57%. In the shorter combo the 21% does 3% less, which is a 6/7 modifier... 85%...

So by doing 5 hits before the 21% combo, it scales the rest of the combo 85%. But by doing 9 hits before, it scales the rest by 66.66%. And by doing 10 hits before, it scales the rest by 57%. Maybe these numbers are different from what they should be, but they're definitely not 100%. Believe ME, I play with the dude. I know a simple corner combo with one bar shouldn't do 65% (and it does), but I also know that damage scaling isn't completely reset. God help us if it were.

As hits are added you can see the scaling for the 21% followup is actually kept and decreases the further it is in the combo.

I still stand by the fact that what's so bad about his scaling is how much damage the 1 in f+4, 2, 1 does (10% in the shortest version, 10%/8%/5% in the mid length, 7%/6% in the much longer combo). Only combos that include this string do any insane damage. Like the 76% combo on Youtube which hits it four times.

But honestly think about it. If the fourth hit of a combo does 10%, or the 8th hit of a combo did 7%, or the 13th hit of a combo did 5%, and allowed you to use another move to juggle with (Close Hell Spike if it isn't used) in order to hit the same string again and end it with a projectile, wouldn't you suspect it first of how ridiculously high damage the combo is?

ApocaLips

I didn't mean it goes exactly to 1 either. That was just an example. It just sets it to a static number which is usually higher than what it was at before the move. I don't know what the exact multiplier is. Again, another exemplary damage reset glitch, the DHC bug in MvC3, also doesn't set it to 1 (I think they were saying somewhere around .85).

Also, I said the example was hypothetical to show what was going on. F+4, 2, 1 does not necessarily scale a combo to .6.

guitalex2007

I don't think that's what is happening at all. In order for what you're saying to be true, then all of the followups in my example would've done the exact same damage, if EX Hell Claw were to set scaling back. However, in the short combo the followups scaled about 85%, in the mid length combo they scaled 66% and in the longer combo the followups scaled by 57%.

If what you're saying is true, then all the followups would scale by the exact same number.

Again, I do think the biggest problem is the f+4, 2, 1 chain and not the EX Hell Spike. If you have Freddy, try to do a combo as long and damaging as you can, using as many EX bars as you can but do not use f+4, 2, 1 at any point. Good luck getting over 50% with one bar.

Think about it. In the mid length combo, the 1 was done three times. First time it did 10% second time it did 8%, third time did 5%. That's 23% damage of the combo, attributed to one attack repeated over and over.

This is the combo I was talking about earlier.

in corner, j.p, f+4, 2, 1, EX Hell Spike, dash back cancel, j.p, f+4, 2, 1, Hell Spike Close, f+4, 2, 1, Claw (65%)

So if we were to take out the ~23% cause just by the 1 in this combo, you'd end up with 42%, which is more acceptable for a combo with one bar but many characters can do it without bar.

I think the f+4, 2, 1 damages need to be adjusted. That, and the projectile glitches people keep mentioning but I haven't seen somehow.