KoF noob trying to get into it..

2

Comments

  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    Average Joe wouldn't even listen to all this. Try explaining the jump system in KOF to a casual gamer and dude's head is gonna explode. It's not that it's complicated for people who are into fighting games, but the Average Joe is likely to take a shining to SF since, at base level it's easier to explain and slower.
    Maybe the average joe in the US. It still doesn't change the implication that KOF is most played series globally, those skilled and unskilled. All a new player needs to know to be annoying is just to roll and press GCCD all the time and it'll mess up other beginning players and some mediocre intermediate players. And press a lot of jabs, cr.C, cl.C or any other fast C/D type attack that's relatively safe. Take Goro in 98 for example. Just learn dp+K command throw, press a lot of st.B, st.C, st.D, gimmick roll around, and press GCCD when someone actually gets close enough to do an attack. Or play Chris and do j.CD and slide all day. Most average people will just irked by "fireball spamming" games such as SF and lean towards KOF because it give leeway with rolls and what not. Another example is 02 Athena for the beginner. Just keep doing A version Psychoballs and press a lot of buttons and it'll also frustrate other low level and mid level players. A lot of things could go unpunished in low level KOF and that kinda rewards low level players and encourages them to play. Try rolling ST O.Sagat or 3s Chun for an average player and it's pretty easy to beat him because it's simply easier to capitalize on mistakes in SF.
  • Maria CroftMaria Croft Joined: Posts: 928
    Thanks for the reply Laban. Learning the low jumps seem like a real challenge.
  • davidkong07davidkong07 Scrub Random.Ultra.David. Joined: Posts: 815
    just keep hopping! you'll get it eventually
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  • Mr. XMr. X Non Stop ∞ Climax Joined: Posts: 20,239
    I had preordered KoF13 a few days ago and decided to come to this section and skim a few more threads and ask which KoF/SNK game/s should I "acquire" and prepare with (I enjoyed Garou the few times I played it even without a movelist beyond that CvS and CvS2 years ago when they hit console is my experience with KoF/SNK). Glad I came in here, Laban's posts were very informative and I put the tutorial on my watch later list. Thank you.

    Also what is the stick layout for buttons?
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  • Dr. GrammarDr. Grammar Fighting Game Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,726
    Offline, play 2002 UM. Online, play 98 or 2002 on GGPO.

    There are two button layouts.
    Type A (modern):
    :snka::snkc:
    :snkb::snkd:

    Type B (classic):
    :snkb::snkc::snkd:
    :snka:

    Edit: You can also join #SNKPlaymore on EFnet to find people to play with or talk about the games.
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  • BelegormBelegorm Too Cool For You Joined: Posts: 280
    Offline, play 2002 UM. Online, play 98 or 2002 on GGPO.

    There are two button layouts.
    Type A (modern):
    :snka::snkc:
    :snkb::snkd:

    Type B (classic):
    :snkb::snkc::snkd:
    :snka:

    Edit: You can also join #SNKPlaymore on EFnet to find people to play with or talk about the games.

    Naturally those are the arcade layouts, but I've seen a HUGE number of people who have been playing the games at home for years that use

    ABC
    D

    This is possibly a bit more comfortable if you're playing on your own, standard 6 button stick due to having A still on your index finger, etc. Also more familiar if you dig the anime fighters, they typically do it that way.

    I'm thinking that sooner or later I'll come across a KOF XIII or a neogeo in an arcade and don't want to screw myself over (so I stick to the oldschool layout) but just mentioning a popular button organisation.
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  • Dr. GrammarDr. Grammar Fighting Game Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,726
    Naturally those are the arcade layouts, but I've seen a HUGE number of people who have been playing the games at home for years that use

    ABC
    D

    This is possibly a bit more comfortable if you're playing on your own, standard 6 button stick due to having A still on your index finger, etc. Also more familiar if you dig the anime fighters, they typically do it that way.

    I'm thinking that sooner or later I'll come across a KOF XIII or a neogeo in an arcade and don't want to screw myself over (so I stick to the oldschool layout) but just mentioning a popular button organisation.
    Yeah, I think that layout is popular with Chinese players, but it's non-standard. It makes sense to put the 'D' button on the thumb in games like BlazBlue and Melty Blood (or 'S' in MvC3) because it has a special function. In KOF, however, 'D' is just a heavy kick, so I don't really see why you would want to put it there.
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  • BelegormBelegorm Too Cool For You Joined: Posts: 280
    Yeah, I think that layout is popular with Chinese players, but it's non-standard. It makes sense to put the 'D' button on the thumb in games like BlazBlue and Melty Blood (or 'S' in MvC3) because it has a special function. In KOF, however, 'D' is just a heavy kick, so I don't really see why you would want to put it there.

    I don't know about you but considering I rarely need to hit the D several times in a row quickly (imagine a sweep that chained into itself), so my thumb would work pretty well.
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  • the7kthe7k Kitty Pride. Joined: Posts: 5,573
    Well, when I play KOF on an arcade stick, I always just assign ABCD to all the lower four buttons, and left the top four unassigned.

    If I'm using a pad, then it's Type A set-up.
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  • BelegormBelegorm Too Cool For You Joined: Posts: 280
    Funny thing I noticed...
    After grinding my teeth in rage too many times over being able to do Athena's DM facing right (hcbx2+A/C) but not facing left, I figured I'd try out KOF 2k2 (having pretty much only played 98). Some stuff feels easier, but now the problem's reversed: I can only do the DM facing left, but not right!

    Bottom line is most all KOF's feel a little wonky with the controls compared to SF (gimme 3s's controls any day) till you get used to em. 2k2 less than 98 though.
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  • Hotdawg_SKAHotdawg_SKA Joined: Posts: 453 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I respect KOF as a fighting game but I don't really like it's playstyle. It's almost kind of mindless in the way it approaches offense and rushdown. It's so different from SF. In SF, it's more realistic in that you have to get a feel of your opponent first before committing to any rushdown. In KOF, everyone is hopping around like a rabbit....you even see big characters like Raiden and Chang hopping around. In that sense, everyone feels the same in KOF in how you approach offense. There's no footsies really going on in KOF. I kinda compare KOF to Tekken....it's all about landing that small jump into a big combo kinda like how Tekken is with it's dashing back and forth and landing a launcher into a combo. Once you knock down your opponent, you gain a HUGE advantage w/ meaty attacks, small jump overhead/low BnB combo traps similar to how powerful Tekken's Oki rushdown is. SF is more like VF for me in that you have to feel each other out with your basic attacks....there's lots of frame data on attacks which you must pay a lot of mind to and must really think about how you approach your offense. You wait for your opponent to make a mistake first. Throws are very useful in SF too just like they are in VF whereas in KOF and Tekken, not so much.
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  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    I respect KOF as a fighting game but I don't really like it's playstyle. It's almost kind of mindless in the way it approaches offense and rushdown. It's so different from SF. In SF, it's more realistic in that you have to get a feel of your opponent first before committing to any rushdown. In KOF, everyone is hopping around like a rabbit....you even see big characters like Raiden and Chang hopping around. In that sense, everyone feels the same in KOF in how you approach offense. There's no footsies really going on in KOF. I kinda compare KOF to Tekken....it's all about landing that small jump into a big combo kinda like how Tekken is with it's dashing back and forth and landing a launcher into a combo. Once you knock down your opponent, you gain a HUGE advantage w/ meaty attacks, small jump overhead/low BnB combo traps similar to how powerful Tekken's Oki rushdown is. SF is more like VF for me in that you have to feel each other out with your basic attacks....there's lots of frame data on attacks which you must pay a lot of mind to and must really think about how you approach your offense. You wait for your opponent to make a mistake first. Throws are very useful in SF too just like they are in VF whereas in KOF and Tekken, not so much.

    Movement and ways of approach are more homogenized, yes due to having more subsystems than the staple SF game, but it doesn't mean it's mindless. Every character could walk forward, block, and neutral jump in SF then work their footsies. KOF is no different. The thing is with KOF is that it has less emphasis on SF-style footsies of weaving in and out of poke range and trying to counter poke an opponent, but has a more diverse sense of movement and the ability to space and poke. It's incorrect to simply say that there aren't any footsies going on in KOF, but the way that it is implemented is certainly different than how it is in SF. Just because there are strong overhead/low tactics doesn't mean that it becomes "mindless." You can anti-air a hop easily with a st.A, a Mexican Uppercut, a neutral hop or backwards hop with a horizontal attack, specials that cover the hop range, etc. When a player whiffs a cr.B, an opponent could counter poke it with a cr.D much akin to a person whiffing a cr.LK and being punished by a cr.HK. When a player tries to maneuver around a fireball/zoning archetype of a character in KOF, most characters can't simply just hop over an airborne projectile and more traditional footsies come more into play. Try "brainlessly" rushing down Athena in 02 or Goro in 98, it doesn't work. There is more credence to spacing and set-ups than you may think there are in KOF. Seriously, play KOF against a good person and try to hop all day; the game is largely ground-based and you'll get anti-aired for free.

    "SF is more like VF for me in that you have to feel each other out with your basic attacks" , are you implying that this doesn't occur in KOF at all? Have you seen Versus Festival 02um match videos or Re:vamp 98umfe vids? Many players generally have to feel out the intents and the approaches of the opponent before trying to go in, that is if the players want to go in. Just as offense is good in KOF, defense is really strong as well as there is a more diversified means of aerial and ground movement to cover spaces that traditionally couldn't be covered in SF. I see players turtle it out especially in 98umfe as well as players trying to maintain their spacings with characters such as Jhun/K'/King/Kasumi/Nameless and hold a strong neutral game. In older games such as 98 Slugfest, players had to be more cautious in approaching Goro or Chizuru due to their strong zoning abilities. Offense and Defense are certainly a bit more proactive in KOF, but aspects of momentum that occur in SF occur just as well in KOF.

    "....There's lots of frame data on attack which you must pay a lot of mind to", really now? Considering you registered in 2003, I was hoping more of the senior members of SRK would know better by now that frame data isn't that all important. It's helpful in confirming which certain attacks are generally safe or not, but it doesn't really help or dictate how a game is played. Even in games such as VF and SF, knowing when an attack is either positive/negative, safe/unsafe is important but that could be easily found out by just feeling out a move and applying it in a match. Knowing the actual frame data doesn't really change knowing when a frametrap is a frametrap or actually affect spacing techniques or any of the sort. Same in KOF, attacks still have advantage/disadvantage as in SF/VF/Tekken/etc. and there are attacks that are punishable and others that are safer that could lead into some fancy frametrap or set-up. Attacks are attacks.

    "Throws are very useful in SF too just like they are in VF whereas in KOF and Tekken, not so much." This is also incorrect, mainly in regards to KOF. Throws are more easily teched in KOF98 than it is in general SF games, but in later games such as 02um it's actually more difficult to tech than games such as SSFIV or about as hard as in 3s. Tick throws might not be as relevant, but throws in general have different but frequent applications in KOF. One common application is for punishing rolls. An equivalent to a tick throw or walk-up throw tactic in SF that occurs in KOF is setting up an opponent with an empty hop and simply throw him. Another set up is for an okizeme mix-up involving a safe, empty hop into a command throw set-up. Since there is no alternate guard that could be set up, the opponent is forced to guess to hop/jump out or not since command throws can't be teched. If the opponent does hop or jump, the player could option select and do f.C to hit the opponent with an anti-air; and if the opponent didn't hop/jump, the opponent will eat a normal throw. Sure the normal throw could be teched, but the mix-up lies in the command throw. That leads into another issue, command throws and proximity unblockables and that both are prevalent amongst the cast of each game and have large impact upon flow, pace, and tactics of the game. To say that throws are not as useful in KOF than they are in SF is just plain wrong.

    I'm sorry to say dude; but in general, it seems like you know next to nothing about KOF. Yet, you're making this audacious claim without solid evidence to back it up. It's one thing to say you don't like it, and that's okay. But, your reasoning and lack of understanding of the game shows that you're basing your opinion of the series with ignorance and faulty analogies. Then you use the whole "fame data" bit like a traditionally bad SRK poster trying to sound smart or something. It's almost like I'm being trolled here, and I certainly hope that's not the case. " It's so different from SF. In SF, it's more realistic...," so you just don't like KOF because it's not SF? You could have just said so rather than making ignorant statements. I also don't see how realism makes a "game" a "good game." The characters throw fireballs from their hands, jump 2-3 meters into the air, and crouch on the ground a lot trying to kick each other.
  • Hotdawg_SKAHotdawg_SKA Joined: Posts: 453 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG

    Yes I know there is strategy w/ KOF's movement system but like I said, it's not to my liking. It just looks and feels kinda dumb to me but again, it's just my opinion. I've watched a TON of Japanese matches and tournament footage on KOF and trust me, 90% of the time you've got characters all jumping and rolling around. I'm not gonna go into specifics on all the different older KOF games but mainly I'm taking about KOFXIII. Also it seems every basic attack leaves you at either even or positive frame advantage....there's not very much depth to the basic attacks of which there are only 4. The footsies in this game is pretty limited....it's simply run up and do st. B or cr. HK, etc. Also it just really bugs me that you can just run up and do meaty attacks on a downed opponent without no real threat of being in danger. Meaty attacks are too strong. Same with the small jumping shenanigans....sure you can stop small jumps w/ a st. A, or a DP move but honestly, the risk and reward isn't there. A mistimed st. A means you eat a huge small jump combo that takes a way half your life. If you do time the st. A right, they eat only 10 damage.

    Same with DP's in this game...they don't have much priority and plus can be safe jumped a lot of the time so that's why you barely see tournament players use it b/c it's just too risky. Not to mention they don't really do much damage overall either. Small jumping not only lets you land huge damage, it also beats low pokes, is an overhead, good for baiting out DP's and gives you a huge offensive edge such as empty jump into low BnB combo or empty jump into a throw/command throw....now what are your defensive options? Well you can waste 1 bar by trying to CD attack while blocking but then you waste 1 meter and your opponent eats like 5 damage? You can try rolling but the opponent can throw you out or land a BnB combo on your roll recovery. So now you're left with doing a psychic DP which is too risky or timing a st. A which doesn't really deter the attack from jumping on you again and landing a HUGE combo. I've seen tournament matches where one guy is helpless in the corner while the other guy small jumps almost "mindlessly" for free....when I say mindless, I don't mean it literally. I know there's strategy but like I said, it's too much in favor of small jumping. So these guys are both pros at this game and yet one guy is so helpless and all the other guy is doing is small jumping on him.....it just isn't right. That's kinda what I mean when I say it's kinda mindless. As for getting in on top tier chars like Goro98(his one frame st. D lol?) and Athena 02, I don't care too much about that...I'm just glad that shit isn't in KOFXIII.

    No I never implied that it doesn't occur AT ALL. Just that it doesn't really occur as much as it should...it's too focused on small jumping for my liking. It's almost like the game should be called SMALL JUMP FIGHTERS lol. For the most part, strong defense usually comes down to picking characters w/ cheap attacks like Goro98 and his st. D. But defense as a whole in this game is quite limited and needs to be stronger.

    I think frame data is quite important....in KOF, sure you've got recovery on some attacks but they're all to be expected such as recovery on DP's, special moves that travel across the screen, hypers, etc. I'm mainly talking about basic attacks. It seems like everyone's standing or crouching basic attacks are safe on block. Overheads and link attacks(F + A,B) are all safe too. Everything is a bit too safe in this game..small jumps, basic attacks, heck even some special attacks are very hard to punish on recovery. I feel like all the characters basically have the same frame datas on their basic attacks. There just isn't much dimension to fighting it out...it's more about jumping in and landing that huge combo. It's kinda like how in Tekken(KOF) everyone almost kinda feels and plays the same but in VF(SF), everyone is uniquely different.

    Yes I was mainly referring to tick throws....it's almost feels non existant when I watch KOF matches. Even so, why tick throw when you can keep the pressure going w/ small jumps and land huge damage? Also the throws all feel the same.....they all throw each other the same distance and it's basically just that....a throw. In SSF4, throws have different dimensions to them. Some throws leave the opponent right next to you which you can set up for a cross up or meaty...others help set you up for safe jumps, or free chip damage, etc. In SF3rd strike, you always see guys pressuring each other w/ throws....same thing with VF games. Throws are a huge part of mindgames. In Tekken, SoulCalibur and KOF, throws take a huge backseat unless you're a grappling character but that's to be expected.

    I never said KOF is a bad game....I respect it as a fighting game. It takes a lot of skill to truly master it for sure. I just don't like all that small jumping around and how dominant it is. It just looks silly to me and isn't very fun. It's like round 1, FIGHT!!! BAM both characters start rolling, hopping and jumping around like rabbits lol. I'm more used to characters walking back and forth, judging each other's range like in a real fight and using his or her pokes to calculate their distance of attack....to me, that's the beauty of a fight just like being in a real fight. Like I dunno, if KOF ever was to be made into an anime or movie, all I gotta say is they better capture the aspect of small jumping into their fight scenes lol but man it sure would look silly. Just ranting sorry lol....but hey to each their own.
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  • phoenixnlphoenixnl Joined: Posts: 643
    O god, you are so misinformed I'm not even sure where to start.
    Also it seems every basic attack leaves you at either even or positive frame advantage....there's not very much depth to the basic attacks of which there are only 4.


    Except that it is typical of KOF that virtually no attack have + frames on block (or even hit) at all. For example K''s normals in KOF2002 are ALL negative or neutral on block except for close A, which is +3, but it whiffs on crouchers so... wait to go showing complete ignorance about KOF.

    The footsies in this game is pretty limited....it's simply run up and do st. B or cr. HK, etc."

    Except that there's hops which give a whole new dimension to footsies, kinda like how sidestepping in Virtua Fighter gives you the opportunity to dodge straight moves but not circular moves.
    Also it just really bugs me that you can just run up and do meaty attacks on a downed opponent without no real threat of being in danger. Meaty attacks are too strong.


    Yes meaties are good, and yes dp's are a bit weak, but most characters with a DP can actually beat out or trade with a meatie, which at least nets you a knockdown.


    Same with the small jumping shenanigans....sure you can stop small jumps w/ a st. A, or a DP move but honestly, the risk and reward isn't there. A mistimed st. A means you eat a huge small jump combo that takes a way half your life. If you do time the st. A right, they eat only 10 damage.


    A mistimed dp in Street fighter also means you eat a huge combo. The chances of you recovering in time to block are actually pretty high rather making st.A a very GOOD thing risk/reward wise. This clearly shows your massive lack of understanding of the game and its risk-reward distribution.

    Same with DP's in this game...they don't have much priority and plus can be safe jumped a lot of the time so that's why you barely see tournament players use it b/c it's just too risky. Not to mention they don't really do much damage overall either. Small jumping not only lets you land huge damage, it also beats low pokes, is an overhead, good for baiting out DP's and gives you a huge offensive edge such as empty jump into low BnB combo or empty jump into a throw/command throw....now what are your defensive options?


    Yeah, I'd like to see you try safejumping. Almost no moves do a hard knockdown, and even then the timing usually comes down to a 2 frame window, or 3 frames at best. There is actually moves that simply cannot be safejumped at all. (Athena's shining crystal bit, for example). If anything, safejumps play a FAR less important role in KOF than in Street Fighter.
    Well you can waste 1 bar by trying to CD attack while blocking but then you waste 1 meter and your opponent eats like 5 damage? You can try rolling but the opponent can throw you out or land a BnB combo on your roll recovery.

    Yeah except if you guard cancel roll, you are completely invulnerable to throws and strikes, and if your opponent automodes into offense will whiff massively slow moves giving you a free punish.
    As for getting in on top tier chars like Goro98(his one frame st. D lol?) and Athena 02, I don't care too much about that...I'm just glad that shit isn't in KOFXIII.
    98 Goro's st.D is 5 frames startup and his close D is 4 frames startup. This is respectively 2 and 3 frames slower than Chun's close Hard Kick. You're pulling framedata out of your ass.

    It seems like everyone's standing or crouching basic attacks are safe on block.


    Are you serious? Iori cr.D would like a word with you. If you don't cancel a lot of your basic heavy attacks they're generally pretty bad on block. And canceling out of unsafe moves pushes the opponent out and generally stops their momentum.
    Overheads and link attacks(F + A,B) are all safe too.

    Are you serious? In 2002 K' f+B is punishable ON HIT, Yashiro's f+A is pretty punishable on block as well. You have absolutely no idea what you're saying.

    I feel like all the characters basically have the same frame datas on their basic attacks.

    no.

    There just isn't much dimension to fighting it out...it's more about jumping in and landing that huge combo.

    Yeah.. except any retard can block jump mixups, so actually jumping in like a maniac seldomly makes you land massive combos. Landing damage is mostly landing from punishes of really unsafe stuff, baiting slow normals that whiff etc. Once again you showcase your ignorance.
    Also the throws all feel the same.....they all throw each other the same distance and it's basically just that....a throw. In SSF4, throws have different dimensions to them. Some throws leave the opponent right next to you which you can set up for a cross up or meaty...others help set you up for safe jumps, or free chip damage, etc.

    You know nothing. Compare Whip's D throw to Mature's D throw and you'll realise how utterly retarded it was to say what you just said.
    I never said KOF is a bad game....I respect it as a fighting game. It takes a lot of skill to truly master it for sure. I just don't like all that small jumping around and how dominant it is. It just looks silly to me and isn't very fun. It's like round 1, FIGHT!!! BAM both characters start rolling, hopping and jumping around like rabbits lol.

    See. that's the first time you're vaguely make sense with an opinion. You're free to dislike this game. I have no clue why you would come in a thread about KOF or even come into a FORUM about KOF to tell us this. But your facts are all wrong and you're incredibly misinformed about the game. Maybe if you'd actually put time into it you'd find you like it!
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558

    Yes I know there is strategy w/ KOF's movement system but like I said, it's not to my liking. It just looks and feels kinda dumb to me but again, it's just my opinion. I've watched a TON of Japanese matches and tournament footage on KOF and trust me, 90% of the time you've got characters all jumping and rolling around. I'm not gonna go into specifics on all the different older KOF games but mainly I'm taking about KOFXIII. Also it seems every basic attack leaves you at either even or positive frame advantage....there's not very much depth to the basic attacks of which there are only 4. The footsies in this game is pretty limited....it's simply run up and do st. B or cr. HK, etc. Also it just really bugs me that you can just run up and do meaty attacks on a downed opponent without no real threat of being in danger. Meaty attacks are too strong. Same with the small jumping shenanigans....sure you can stop small jumps w/ a st. A, or a DP move but honestly, the risk and reward isn't there. A mistimed st. A means you eat a huge small jump combo that takes a way half your life. If you do time the st. A right, they eat only 10 damage.
    Same with DP's in this game...they don't have much priority and plus can be safe jumped a lot of the time so that's why you barely see tournament players use it b/c it's just too risky. Not to mention they don't really do much damage overall either. Small jumping not only lets you land huge damage, it also beats low pokes, is an overhead, good for baiting out DP's and gives you a huge offensive edge such as empty jump into low BnB combo or empty jump into a throw/command throw....now what are your defensive options? Well you can waste 1 bar by trying to CD attack while blocking but then you waste 1 meter and your opponent eats like 5 damage? You can try rolling but the opponent can throw you out or land a BnB combo on your roll recovery. So now you're left with doing a psychic DP which is too risky or timing a st. A which doesn't really deter the attack from jumping on you again and landing a HUGE combo. I've seen tournament matches where one guy is helpless in the corner while the other guy small jumps almost "mindlessly" for free....when I say mindless, I don't mean it literally. I know there's strategy but like I said, it's too much in favor of small jumping. So these guys are both pros at this game and yet one guy is so helpless and all the other guy is doing is small jumping on him.....it just isn't right. That's kinda what I mean when I say it's kinda mindless. As for getting in on top tier chars like Goro98(his one frame st. D lol?) and Athena 02, I don't care too much about that...I'm just glad that shit isn't in KOFXIII.
    No I never implied that it doesn't occur AT ALL. Just that it doesn't really occur as much as it should...it's too focused on small jumping for my liking. It's almost like the game should be called SMALL JUMP FIGHTERS lol. For the most part, strong defense usually comes down to picking characters w/ cheap attacks like Goro98 and his st. D. But defense as a whole in this game is quite limited and needs to be stronger.
    I think frame data is quite important....in KOF, sure you've got recovery on some attacks but they're all to be expected such as recovery on DP's, special moves that travel across the screen, hypers, etc. I'm mainly talking about basic attacks. It seems like everyone's standing or crouching basic attacks are safe on block. Overheads and link attacks(F + A,B) are all safe too. Everything is a bit too safe in this game..small jumps, basic attacks, heck even some special attacks are very hard to punish on recovery. I feel like all the characters basically have the same frame datas on their basic attacks. There just isn't much dimension to fighting it out...it's more about jumping in and landing that huge combo. It's kinda like how in Tekken(KOF) everyone almost kinda feels and plays the same but in VF(SF), everyone is uniquely different.
    Yes I was mainly referring to tick throws....it's almost feels non existant when I watch KOF matches. Even so, why tick throw when you can keep the pressure going w/ small jumps and land huge damage? Also the throws all feel the same.....they all throw each other the same distance and it's basically just that....a throw. In SSF4, throws have different dimensions to them. Some throws leave the opponent right next to you which you can set up for a cross up or meaty...others help set you up for safe jumps, or free chip damage, etc. In SF3rd strike, you always see guys pressuring each other w/ throws....same thing with VF games. Throws are a huge part of mindgames. In Tekken, SoulCalibur and KOF, throws take a huge backseat unless you're a grappling character but that's to be expected.
    I never said KOF is a bad game....I respect it as a fighting game. It takes a lot of skill to truly master it for sure. I just don't like all that small jumping around and how dominant it is. It just looks silly to me and isn't very fun. It's like round 1, FIGHT!!! BAM both characters start rolling, hopping and jumping around like rabbits lol. I'm more used to characters walking back and forth, judging each other's range like in a real fight and using his or her pokes to calculate their distance of attack....to me, that's the beauty of a fight just like being in a real fight. Like I dunno, if KOF ever was to be made into an anime or movie, all I gotta say is they better capture the aspect of small jumping into their fight scenes lol but man it sure would look silly. Just ranting sorry lol....but hey to each their own.
    Yeah sorry dude. You utterly know nothing about KOF. I don't why you'd come here into the KOF subforum to tell us you don't like KOF. I mean, it's okay that you don't. It's okay that you don't like KOF because it's not SF. I don't see why you have to come here and tell us though. You clearly are showing that you're ignorant about KOF as a whole and that you would rather play SF. We get it. Just leave or something. This thread is about helping new players get into KOF. Are you trying to make new players stray away from getting interested in a different fighting game other than SF? Stop this shit. You're not even doing a good job of it.

    Stop using Virtua Fighter analogies please. It's ironic that you keep trying to compare Street Fighter to it when Virtua Fighter is one of the most homogenized fighting games out there, even more so than KOF. You're sounding like many of those scrubs that say "VIRTUA FIGHTER IS DEEP" yet don't even play the game.
  • Hotdawg_SKAHotdawg_SKA Joined: Posts: 453 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    LOL and you guys wonder why the KOF community is so small....always so quick to throw out insults at anyone who disagrees.
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  • Dr. GrammarDr. Grammar Fighting Game Scientist Joined: Posts: 1,726
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  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    Dr. Grammar, I don't know anymore at this point.
    LOL and you guys wonder why the KOF community is so small....always so quick to throw out insults at anyone who disagrees.
    You're saying incorrect things about KOF, and some how that's disagreeing? Being wrong is being wrong. If anything, you're the one making our scene damn smaller because you're spouting all this bullshit left and right to new players that don't know better.

    You can't even defend your stance. You're dodging the issue and had to "low blow" with the fact our scene is small. It's small because there are idiots like you who don't know shit about KOF and make faulty impressions and spread it around and some how people take your word.
  • Hotdawg_SKAHotdawg_SKA Joined: Posts: 453 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Actually I do have a point....all of your counterarguments are usually just one instance or a few examples here and there. I don't have time to discuss each and every single installment of KOF. It doesn't change the fact that KOF generally is all about rushdown w/ small jumps....all you have to do is simply watch a match video of KOF and it's so obvious.
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  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    Actually I do have a point....all of your counterarguments are usually just one instance or a few examples here and there. I don't have time to discuss each and every single installment of KOF. It doesn't change the fact that KOF generally is all about rushdown w/ small jumps....all you have to do is simply watch a match video of KOF and it's so obvious.
    I could go into more instances and examples if you want. If you have a damn problem with KOF then do it else where than in "KoF noob trying to get into it.." thread. If you don't have the time to discuss each main installment of KOF (98 series, 02 series, XIII), then don't even bring it up. Seriously, what the fuck are you doing? And yeah, watch any 98um vid and see Eiji/O. King/O. Geese lame it out or see two Namelesses in 02um trying maintain a solid neutral game trying to maintain space. Spacing and footsies do occur in KOF in an alternative manner. There is hopping, but it's not as mindless as you claim it to be and it's not all used for offensive momentum.

    This thread is about a dude trying to learn about KOF; what right is yours to derail it with ignorant statements that derail the thread and have nothing contribute to the player trying to get into KOF? Then you don't even have the courtesy to back up your bullshit that you started. If you like SF that much, then just stay on those boards/threads instead. Maybe you'll actually know about a game you're talking about.
  • BelegormBelegorm Too Cool For You Joined: Posts: 280
    Actually I do have a point....all of your counterarguments are usually just one instance or a few examples here and there. I don't have time to discuss each and every single installment of KOF. It doesn't change the fact that KOF generally is all about rushdown w/ small jumps....all you have to do is simply watch a match video of KOF and it's so obvious.

    Important yes, all about no. Further whether or not you like aggressive games like KOF or the fighting game version of chess (SF) is your business; why bring it up here? Looking at your first post you start by stating that your preference is not for KOF. You then go on to complain about the problems with the tendency to just rush in KOF and continue arguing how you like SF footsies better than hops/jumps, which is also personal preference. The way you use hops is not mindless; it's just zoning going on at a much faster pace than you're used to seeing in SF. 3s is a bit faster but as a whole SF is a slow game compared to KOF. You're making your decisions in KOF frequently at a much faster rate than SF and that's your issue with the game (apart from not liking hops, apparently you dislike the aesthetics or something; gameplay-wise there's easy counters to the hops).

    The main issue is that you are bringing this up in a thread called "KOF noob trying to get into it..." You don't play KOF and judging by your 2003 reg you're probably not a noob at SF (well you well might be for all I know). If you're going to pick a fight with the KOF guys on the SRK forums do it in the general thread or a new thread; in this thread it's only natural that people are first going to defend their game then once they realise it's pointless they're going to ask you to kindly bring your argument elsewhere.
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  • AnakronAnakron Alpha Male Joined: Posts: 2,391

    I never said KOF is a bad game....I respect it as a fighting game. It takes a lot of skill to truly master it for sure. I just don't like all that small jumping around and how dominant it is. It just looks silly to me and isn't very fun. It's like round 1, FIGHT!!! BAM both characters start rolling, hopping and jumping around like rabbits lol. I'm more used to characters walking back and forth, judging each other's range like in a real fight and using his or her pokes to calculate their distance of attack....to me, that's the beauty of a fight just like being in a real fight. Like I dunno, if KOF ever was to be made into an anime or movie, all I gotta say is they better capture the aspect of small jumping into their fight scenes lol but man it sure would look silly. Just ranting sorry lol....but hey to each their own.
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  • hisogahisoga Joined: Posts: 71
    Actually I do have a point....all of your counterarguments are usually just one instance or a few examples here and there. I don't have time to discuss each and every single installment of KOF. It doesn't change the fact that KOF generally is all about rushdown w/ small jumps....all you have to do is simply watch a match video of KOF and it's so obvious.
    come on man.. nobody here trying to attack you.. you brought your point here and people here response. thats all. i don't see Laban ridicule you or anything. and you are already said KOF style is not yours style or whatever, you are already made up your mind in the first place, the truth is you are not supposedly to give a comment here in this thread where this is the place for new people to learn KOF. You are already made up your mind. but still a great kof community like Laban still trying to response to your post. still trying to explain what is kof to you. from your 1st post, its clearly show that you only know so little about kof. but yes, kof more rushdown and fast. NOBODY here trying to say otherwise. but you are still doesn't satisfy. WHat do you want actually? and nobody here said anything bad about other games. don't try to attack KOF community and then act like an innocent. please.. and i'm sorry for my bad english
  • EmXEmX Joined: Posts: 845
    Hotdawg you're lucky anyone cares enough to reply to you, let alone give you a point by point breakdown of where you're misguided. You are literally a child for taking it personally. Like every member of the peanut gallery you somehow feel entitled to an opinion no matter how misinformed or poorly thought out it is.
  • davidkong07davidkong07 Scrub Random.Ultra.David. Joined: Posts: 815
    Actually I do have a point....all of your counterarguments are usually just one instance or a few examples here and there. I don't have time to discuss each and every single installment of KOF. It doesn't change the fact that KOF generally is all about rushdown w/ small jumps....all you have to do is simply watch a match video of KOF and it's so obvious.

    coming into kof from sf myself, i can kind of understand why a sf player would look at kof and think, "KOF generally is all about rushdown w/ small jumps", since after all, it's a very foreign concept to the sf series, and is a crucial aspect to competitive game play. but to say that is to disregard how the kof system works as a whole, independently from other games (in this case SF), and definitely indicates a major lack of experience and knowledge.

    it's the equivalent of someone ignorant picking up sf4 and saying, "oh this game is all about holding down back and spamming good normals". compared to some other games, yes those attributes are more prevalent in sf, but to phrase it like that would be stupid.

    but hey, in the end, you're not a kof player, so you don't really have to understand. just please don't try to have a serious discussion about kof with kof players and pretend like you know as much about how the game works as they do, because your tone comes off as ignorant and a little bit insulting.
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  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    I've watched a TON of Japanese matches and tournament footage on KOF and trust me, 90% of the time you've got characters all jumping and rolling around.

    I don't trust you because I'm a big follower of Japanese matches and I don't see "rolling around" at all. Jumping, sure...but they're used in many ways with many purposes, you can't group them all into the category of "jumping" like you would someone in ST jumping forward against Ryu.
    The footsies in this game is pretty limited....it's simply run up and do st. B or cr. HK, etc.

    No, the footsies in this game involve horizontal standing/crouching pokes, hops to apply pressure or punish sweeps, dash-ins to apply pressure or go under hops/jumps, low risk/low reward anti-airs (stand A) to stop hops, low attacks that beat out those standing A's, well timed backdashes into dps to punish hops/jumps trying to cross you up, rolls (backwards) to get out of some pressure situations, and dash ins to punish predicted backwards rolls.
    Also it just really bugs me that you can just run up and do meaty attacks on a downed opponent without no real threat of being in danger.

    I'd really like to see you say that after you fight a dp mashing Ken user that's decided to play some kof.
    sure you can stop small jumps w/ a st. A, or a DP move but honestly, the risk and reward isn't there. A mistimed st. A means you eat a huge small jump combo that takes a way half your life. If you do time the st. A right, they eat only 10 damage.

    Eh no, it's practically impossible to get punished by a jump combo for doing a stand A, unless you're doing it as they are coming down (which is NOT how it's supposed to be used).
    Same with DP's in this game...they don't have much priority and plus can be safe jumped a lot of the time so that's why you barely see tournament players use it b/c it's just too risky.

    A number of dps actually have less priority in SF, unless they are done deep...same idea in kof too. Some characters have good enough invincibility on them though that they don't need to be done deep in the jump. When I was new to kof i thought dps had bad priority...I was doing them wrong.
    I've seen tournament matches where one guy is helpless in the corner while the other guy small jumps almost "mindlessly" for free....when I say mindless, I don't mean it literally. I know there's strategy but like I said, it's too much in favor of small jumping. So these guys are both pros at this game and yet one guy is so helpless and all the other guy is doing is small jumping on him.....it just isn't right.

    You can say the same thing about pros like Kurahashi "spamming" fireballs at the perfect spacing while the other pro player continues to eat chip or get dped. The thing is that the ST corner traps are actually harder to get out of than the kof hopping ones, because there's more escape gaps and more tools available to escape (though of course, a good player will try to cover the escape options as best he can).
    For the most part, strong defense usually comes down to picking characters w/ cheap attacks like Goro98 and his st. D.

    Daimon's far D is like...Dictator's far HK in SF4, except Daimon's is easier to punish.
    Yes I was mainly referring to tick throws....it's almost feels non existant when I watch KOF matches.

    Tick throws are almost non-existent because of throw teching being very easy (this was fixed in kof2k2UM) and a glitch called alternate guard.
    Even so, why tick throw when you can keep the pressure going w/ small jumps and land huge damage?

    I'll own your small jumps.
    Also the throws all feel the same.....they all throw each other the same distance and it's basically just that....a throw.

    Lol not at all...in fact, like every character has something unique about their throws. Kyo's C throw pushes them back on the same side they were and can be recovery rolled. Kyo's D throw knocks them down on the opposite side, with their back turned (this is important) and cannot be recovery rolled. It's kind of hard to set up good pressure off of these midscreen, but if you land the D throw in the corner, you can do it. Now let's take K's throws: his C throw cannot be recovery rolled and knocks them down right in front of K. He has enough time to do a meaty jump crossup before they get up, midscreen. K's D throw knocks them back in the opposite direction and can be recovery rolled. I can state these differences about every character in the game...not only are their 2 throws different from each other, but they are usually unique from the other characters as well.

    Anyway, apologize for your ignorance...research the game more, then come back. Seriously, like every high level match of the game would show that you're wrong, as long as you're watching it properly rather than having some kind of tally page where you tick off the number of jumps used and use that to make some kind of point. Just watch this...or pretty much any match from my youtube channel:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl-cWmA4uwM
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • GimnboGimnbo Joined: Posts: 68
    Honestly, I'm surprised that someone who decided to enter the KOF subforum (which is hardly the most active or prominent on SRK, so it's not like you can really come here by accident) in order to shit on KOF got off with just a warning.
  • BiGGDaddyCaneBiGGDaddyCane ☵☳☷☵☴☵☳☲☷☵ Joined: Posts: 932
    Lol What The Fuck Is Going On In Here, Yo Emil, and Laban Damn lmao, I feel yall and everyone else who explained KOF to Mr. Hotdawg here. Couldn't of said it any better.

    And Hotdawg Get Outta Here man, I dont like how you say you respect the game, but still having multiple bias things to say about it. We Dont need that shit here man, dont like the game then get out, cause we love it. Wheres Rouge and Nocturnal.
    " I'll stain my hands with your blood - Geese "
    KOF 98 Slugfest Dream Match Never Ends
  • NocturnalNocturnal SNK Supporter Joined: Posts: 2,977 mod
    We should probably just leave it at that. No need to quote the man any more. What's been said has been said. Carry on.
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  • Maria CroftMaria Croft Joined: Posts: 928
    I know this thread has derailed a little but I was wondering if anyone could help me out with the following:

    What are good zoning and poking characters in KOF, and what KOF characters are not heavy on combo execution?

    Also, when starting this game as mostly a SF player, what are the first things I should learn, or try to forget from other fighting games?
    Thanks in advance.
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    I know this thread has derailed a little but I was wondering if anyone could help me out with the following:

    What are good zoning and poking characters in KOF, and what KOF characters are not heavy on combo execution?

    Also, when starting this game as mostly a SF player, what are the first things I should learn, or try to forget from other fighting games?
    Thanks in advance.

    I forgot, which KOF are you learning with?

    Generally, Athena and Kensou are more traditional fireball, zoning characters. Kensou plays more of a traditional ground game than Athena to be proficient so I'd say he's more comfortable to learn at first.

    Other zoning characters include Mature, Leona, Mai, Chizuru, Iori, King, O. Yuri, Heidern, Lucky Glauber, and Billy off the top of my head. The easier execution characters would be Athena, Kensou, Mai, Iori, King, O. Yuri, and Leona while maintain high effectiveness. Characters such as Chizuru demand much more execution while characters such as Heidern or Lucky aren't good until 02um and 98umfe respectively.

    For 02 og, a good zoning team would consist of Athena/Mai and filling in the last spot with Leona/Iori/Kensou/Mature/Yuri/Benimaru (Yuri and Iori could play more proactive offensive roles in addition to their great zoning.)

    For 98 og, Iori/Mai would be good to start with and fill the last spot with Leona/Mature/Benimaru/Ralf/Chang

    I mention Benimaru, Ralf, and Chang because their normals could be used really well to keep opponents out although they're more suited for proactive roles. But they're really great at zoning as well all while maintaining ease. Another good zoning character in 98 og is Takuma and he's really cheap.

    Hopefully this is sufficient information.
  • BiGGDaddyCaneBiGGDaddyCane ☵☳☷☵☴☵☳☲☷☵ Joined: Posts: 932
    Not To Derail the topic, however this may help out some New people too.

    Here's a ok Example of Footsies and Zoning at ( 1:47 )


    I would bring some others up but im watching Summer Jam ,:)

    Edit : Oh and check out some of Emil's Vids too on his tube, He has a great amount of good matches.
    " I'll stain my hands with your blood - Geese "
    KOF 98 Slugfest Dream Match Never Ends
  • EmilEmil Joined: Posts: 4,389
    The guy really needs to update his videos...that's not Xiaohai vs. Dakou.
    KoF98UM - EX Yama, Eiji, Orochi Yashiro | KoF2k2 - Kim, Whip, Athena, Choi |
    Kof13 - Saiki, Shen, Vice | P4U2 - Shadow Labrys, Rise | GGXrd - Bedman
  • BiGGDaddyCaneBiGGDaddyCane ☵☳☷☵☴☵☳☲☷☵ Joined: Posts: 932
    The guy really needs to update his videos...that's not Xiaohai vs. Dakou.

    Lol, Damn . I watch every last one of those matches too lol. Nevertheless pretty good gameplay in those matches.
    " I'll stain my hands with your blood - Geese "
    KOF 98 Slugfest Dream Match Never Ends
  • Maria CroftMaria Croft Joined: Posts: 928
    I forgot, which KOF are you learning with?

    Generally, Athena and Kensou are more traditional fireball, zoning characters. Kensou plays more of a traditional ground game than Athena to be proficient so I'd say he's more comfortable to learn at first.

    Other zoning characters include Mature, Leona, Mai, Chizuru, Iori, King, O. Yuri, Heidern, Lucky Glauber, and Billy off the top of my head. The easier execution characters would be Athena, Kensou, Mai, Iori, King, O. Yuri, and Leona while maintain high effectiveness. Characters such as Chizuru demand much more execution while characters such as Heidern or Lucky aren't good until 02um and 98umfe respectively.

    For 02 og, a good zoning team would consist of Athena/Mai and filling in the last spot with Leona/Iori/Kensou/Mature/Yuri/Benimaru (Yuri and Iori could play more proactive offensive rolls in addition to their great zoning.)

    For 98 og, Iori/Mai would be good to start with and fill the last spot with Leona/Mature/Benimaru/Ralf/Chang

    I mention Benimaru, Ralf, and Chang because their normals could be used really well to keep opponents out although they're more suited for proactive roles. But they're really great at zoning as well all while maintaining ease. Another good zoning character in 98 og is Takuma and he's really cheap.

    Hopefully this is sufficient information.

    Thanks a lot, this is really helpful.
  • RedVegaRedVega Joined: Posts: 862
    I've read most of the posts in this thread and all I have to say is that I'll be joining your community soon :)

    Laban, your devotion to this game has officially brought over a new scrub on board lol I'll be getting the game when it comes out next month.
  • LabanLaban KOF98 Player Joined: Posts: 2,558
    I've read most of the posts in this thread and all I have to say is that I'll be joining your community soon :)

    Laban, your devotion to this game has officially brought over a new scrub on board lol I'll be getting the game when it comes out next month.
    Sweet~
  • THE ANSWERTHE ANSWER KOF Legend Joined: Posts: 1,688
    Good shit Laban!
    -I'm not THE best anymore, I'm just one of the best =)
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  • FemtoFemto Joined: Posts: 4,927
    I forgot my password for DreamCancel and I'm not home at the moment so I'm gonna ask here. I'm looking to use Ryo, Terry, Takuma in that order. I understand about meter mangament and it seems like Takuma uses the most meter, with Terry running second for meter usage and Ryo not too far behind Terry. Just wondering if anyone has suggestions/pointers for the order for my line-up, if any?

    Thanks in advance!
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  • phoenixnlphoenixnl Joined: Posts: 643
    I forgot my password for DreamCancel and I'm not home at the moment so I'm gonna ask here. I'm looking to use Ryo, Terry, Takuma in that order. I understand about meter mangament and it seems like Takuma uses the most meter, with Terry running second for meter usage and Ryo not too far behind Terry. Just wondering if anyone has suggestions/pointers for the order for my line-up, if any?

    Thanks in advance!

    I think you're talking about KOFXIII?

    That seems like a reasonable order. All three characters have okay usage for meter, but Takuma definitely has the best combos with meter. Ryo and Terry don't matter much which order you take them. Terry builds a bit more meter I think, so he's a better battery than Ryo. I'd let it depend on which opponent you're facing and which character they take first and second to decide the order of Ryo and Terry. Ryo can play a bit more traditional SF-like footsies while Terry is more rushdown, so use Terry against whoever has the least good answers against rushdown.
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