Sub 1 frame HDTV/Monitor Input Lag Database

1242527293034

Comments

  • AshkanAshkan Joined: Posts: 10
    Hi people,
    i have a question regarding Asus VE278Q and it's input lag. on here : prad.de/new/monitore/test/2010/test-asus-ve278q-teil14.html they say it has an input lag of 19ms , so is this correct ? is this average or maximum ? if its average then how worse it can get ? right now im using Asus ML238H wich has a very low input lag maybe around 8-9ms if i switch to VE278Q am i gonna notice any input lag or 10ms isnt big of a deal ?
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,901
    Ashkan wrote: »
    Hi people,
    i have a question regarding Asus VE278Q and it's input lag. on here : prad.de/new/monitore/test/2010/test-asus-ve278q-teil14.html they say it has an input lag of 19ms , so is this correct ? is this average or maximum ? if its average then how worse it can get ? right now im using Asus ML238H wich has a very low input lag maybe around 8-9ms if i switch to VE278Q am i gonna notice any input lag or 10ms isnt big of a deal ?

    I notice different sites will have completely different results. And not every site shows you their testing method. display.com uses the average , and if I am interpreting prad.de correctly via Google translate, prad uses the maximum value. For refrance display . com's shows the average value of 10 ms
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Ashkan wrote: »
    Hi people,
    i have a question regarding Asus VE278Q and it's input lag. on here : prad.de/new/monitore/test/2010/test-asus-ve278q-teil14.html they say it has an input lag of 19ms , so is this correct ? is this average or maximum ? if its average then how worse it can get ? right now im using Asus ML238H wich has a very low input lag maybe around 8-9ms if i switch to VE278Q am i gonna notice any input lag or 10ms isnt big of a deal ?

    Dude 10 ms is like 100 frames of lag you will so notice it!!

    Actually, you won't, so your display is fine.
  • AshkanAshkan Joined: Posts: 10
    tanx for ur reply's but i cant find this ''Display.com'' ? i mean it get me somewhere but it's nowhere! and i know 10ms isnt noticeable but im not sure if its lag never go higher than 19ms ! but if Dark Knight is right then im gonna get this beauty :))
  • WarpticonWarpticon Main otaku of SRK #2 Joined: Posts: 9,968
    Pretty sure he meant displaylag.com.
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the compound.
  • AshkanAshkan Joined: Posts: 10
    well thx everybody , im gonna get it :)
  • onyxonyx 3D Artist Joined: Posts: 830
    edited October 2013
    I wanna upgrade my tv next month because i plan on playing a ton of Killer Instinct. I saw THIS TV on displaylag.com and specs and price seem good to me. The input lag rating is 30ms, is this good enough?? Keep in mind im not a avid tourney player and i rarely play offline. I've been playing UMVC3 online for years and its fine to me.
    WEB: www.forevercg.com
    XBL: Onyx 0f Tek
    R.I.P Aaron Humma(IronPizzle)
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    30 ms is 2 frames of lag, should be fine.
  • onyxonyx 3D Artist Joined: Posts: 830
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    30 ms is 2 frames of lag, should be fine.
    Thanks for the feedback
    WEB: www.forevercg.com
    XBL: Onyx 0f Tek
    R.I.P Aaron Humma(IronPizzle)
  • ParryPerson.ParryPerson. It is done. Joined: Posts: 4,011
    I have a DLP rear projection JVC-56G887 56" TV that is kinda old, but I noticed it has a D-SUB (VGA) in, so I tried it.
    I'm not noticing any input lag from my netbook -> TV. Is this just wishful thinking? Do VGA inputs usually fair pretty good with lag?
    I want to run a bracket of a game at a local tourny and was wondering how this would fair since it has the biggest display I have.
    Info: http://support.jvc.com/consumer/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027720
    User Manual: http://resources.jvc.com/Resources/00/00/91/LCT2063-001D-A.pdf
    Pic: http://img0052.popscreencdn.com/77047548_-jvc-hd52g887-52-inch-hdila-rear-projection-tv-explore-.jpg
    (That is sadly the best picture I can find online.)
    Avatar by Muffin
    #LAFGC on EFNet

    <MrWizard> ive pre banned parry from evo south
    <[Parry]> This is because I ditched helping on the smash brackets isn't it
    <MrWizard> yep
  • DanAdamKOFDanAdamKOF Joined: Posts: 1,000
    Wouldn't VGA take a one-frame hit due to needing to wait for an entire frame to scan in before digitizing it?
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,901
    nope
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • DanAdamKOFDanAdamKOF Joined: Posts: 1,000
    You sure? I can't really see how else it would work, you'd have to wait for the entire frame to scan itself before you can show it, if you tried to show it any earlier than the end of the scanning then you wouldn't have a complete frame to show.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    ADC doesn't work like that, ADC is just analog to digital conversion. It doesn't matter if the frame is done or not, all the processing is done on a chip which processes the signal, it is not a post process effect like what you'd get when post is done on a frame buffer. It only converts the signal it receives to digital, it isn't doing any sort of rendering. It COULD be a frame of lag, or more, or less depending on how good the ADC chips are and how fast they can convert an analog signal to digital 0's and 1's.
  • DanAdamKOFDanAdamKOF Joined: Posts: 1,000
    Ah alright, thanks for the explanation. I'll try and read up on this.
  • EmmersonEmmerson Joined: Posts: 4
    Has anyone test or read and test results on the Panasonic TC-L32C5 32" LCD TV? I have one and I can slightly feel the difference between it and my Sharp CRT TV. I would like to know what the input lag on it is if anyone knows or has one they can test
  • superscience890superscience890 Joined: Posts: 107
    Sooo, a friend and I tested the Gechic 2501M. We used an HDMI splitter to split the signal from his computer to an Evo monitor and the 2501M and these were the results that we got.

    Gechic vs Evo Monitor
    http://i.imgur.com/lCNrNBL.jpg

    Computer vs Gechic
    http://i.imgur.com/fs0Sgd2.jpg

    As long as we were doing the tests right it seems to be the very simlar amounts of input lag as the evo monitor which is pretty cool since this is a ultra portable monitor that runs off of USB power!
  • WarpticonWarpticon Main otaku of SRK #2 Joined: Posts: 9,968
    That's pretty cool. I was actually looking at those recently as a possible combination portable monitor for my laptop/gaming monitor possibility. I also discovered these:

    http://www.ebay.com/bhp/droid-bionic-lapdock

    Which can be had for as little as 40 bucks and work with any HDMI input with the right adapters. Hoping to get one to test out eventually.
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the compound.
  • jugosojugoso FG enthusiast Joined: Posts: 207
    @superscience890
    You should read the first page in order to improve your testing method.
  • DanAdamKOFDanAdamKOF Joined: Posts: 1,000
    edited December 2013
    Warpticon wrote: »
    That's pretty cool. I was actually looking at those recently as a possible combination portable monitor for my laptop/gaming monitor possibility. I also discovered these:

    http://www.ebay.com/bhp/droid-bionic-lapdock

    Which can be had for as little as 40 bucks and work with any HDMI input with the right adapters. Hoping to get one to test out eventually.
    I have one of these and I've played fighters on it, but can't comment on lag other than it's not so obviously terrible that you notice it right away. Also you can't adjust volume (the keys for it are hotkeys for the phone's output volume, not for the speakers) so it either plays at full blast or you'll need to bring speakers and run analog to them (well, I guess a modder could add a pot to adjust the volume). Battery life is nice and the fact that it's battery powered at all helps out. My only real gripe is I can't balance it on top of my PS3 (not without doing something ghetto like sticking the PS3 into something flat) but that's a fault of the PS3 itself. This is getting a bit O/T so if you have more questions PM me so we don't clutter this up.
  • WarpticonWarpticon Main otaku of SRK #2 Joined: Posts: 9,968
    DanAdamKOF wrote: »
    Warpticon wrote: »
    That's pretty cool. I was actually looking at those recently as a possible combination portable monitor for my laptop/gaming monitor possibility. I also discovered these:

    http://www.ebay.com/bhp/droid-bionic-lapdock

    Which can be had for as little as 40 bucks and work with any HDMI input with the right adapters. Hoping to get one to test out eventually.


    I have one of these and I've played fighters on it, but can't comment on lag other than it's not so obviously terrible that you notice it right away. Also you can't adjust volume (the keys for it are hotkeys for the phone's output volume, not for the speakers) so it either plays at full blast or you'll need to bring speakers and run analog to them (well, I guess a modder could add a pot to adjust the volume). Battery life is nice and the fact that it's battery powered at all helps out. My only real gripe is I can't balance it on top of my PS3 (not without doing something ghetto like sticking the PS3 into something flat) but that's a fault of the PS3 itself. This is getting a bit O/T so if you have more questions PM me so we don't clutter this up.

    Well, that's all very encouraging. I'm going to have to pick one up and do an official lag test on it. I read about the lack of audio adjustment, but not having one, I didn't really have a clue on workarounds.
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the compound.
  • SpekioSpekio Joined: Posts: 2
    I'm currently looking for a 32" TV with low input lag. I tried going through the list in the first post, but I'm having trouble finding any of the 16ms or less TVs to buy anywhere. (Problem I have with a lot of the lists I've found.) Sometimes I find ones with similar model numbers, but I have no idea what kind of input lag they would have. Does anyone know of a good low input lag (<16ms) that is currently available to buy?
  • RampageRampage Lurkin' Joined: Posts: 4,988
    Spekio wrote: »
    I'm currently looking for a 32" TV with low input lag. I tried going through the list in the first post, but I'm having trouble finding any of the 16ms or less TVs to buy anywhere. (Problem I have with a lot of the lists I've found.) Sometimes I find ones with similar model numbers, but I have no idea what kind of input lag they would have. Does anyone know of a good low input lag (<16ms) that is currently available to buy?

    @Spekio you can check out www.displaylag.com and filter by the size you're looking for. They generally provide Amazon links, or some alternative.
  • SpekioSpekio Joined: Posts: 2
    I had checked that site, but the lowest input lag listed for a 32" on that site was 26ms. They don't even have anything listed with <16ms between 28" to 40".
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,901
    Spekio wrote: »
    I had checked that site, but the lowest input lag listed for a 32" on that site was 26ms. They don't even have anything listed with <16ms between 28" to 40".

    Its all volunteer based testing, and those volunteers have limited funds. You going to have gaps in the data.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    edited December 2013
    16 ms or 26 ms, guy won't even notice the difference between 1 or 2 frames of lag. Laggy TV is a laggy TV, and in 32 inch you might as well by a 1 frame monitor at that point.

    Also, the reason they don't have anything listed is because in modern TV land, a 1 frame of lag TV doesn't exist other than a Sony LCD, which is only 1 out of hundreds available today. Dump on that noise.
  • pablofsipablofsi Joined: Posts: 124
    edited January 2014
    0, 1 and 2 input delay frames are absolutely easily noticeable in my case.

    I have a 32LM3400 low profile LED TV with 3D, and it has less than 1 frame of input delay. Trust me, since vendors in the US mostly offer high end models only people don't have a chance to check these out but low end TVs have low delay, ideal for games.

    I understand you guys up there don't have much access to low end TVs but accepting 30ms delay? 2 frames is a world of delay, add to that 30ms from online and you've got delay 5, totally awful.

    http://www.walmart.com/ip/LG-42LM3400-42-1080p-60Hz-Cinema-3D-LED-3.0-ultra-slim-HDTV/21693000

    This model is discontinued anyway I think... so... but there must be low end models that match this. In general, low end LGs have always proved to have almost no delay in my case. My other LG has even less delay than this one (feels like 3 or 4ms less than this one)

    Playing Resogun on the PS4 with this TV almost feels like playing on my old NES on my 90s TV.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,901
    0, 1 and 2 input delay frames are absolutely easily noticeable in my case.
    Are you superhuman? according to the theories of Phi phenomenon (in the past incorrectly called Persistence of vision)
    states that it should be humanly impossible to notice actual 1 or 2 frames of delay.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • pablofsipablofsi Joined: Posts: 124
    edited January 2014
    I don't know about theories but I can easily differentiate the time it takes for stuff to happen with 0, 1 and 2 delay frames, I mean the difference between 0 and 2 frames changes how you play (in a fighting game) completely and takes away a lot of the fun.

    My TV set actually has a delay problem: (while labelled as PC) the last HDMI port you've connected is the one that gets the less delay. The other one (port 1 or 2 doesn't matter though, only thing that matters is which one you've connected before or recently) gets a 1 and a half more delay, and that is a world of delay. Even the PS4 menu feels different.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    edited January 2014
    pablofsi wrote: »
    0, 1 and 2 input delay frames are absolutely easily noticeable in my case.

    I have a 32LM3400 low profile LED TV with 3D, and it has less than 1 frame of input delay. Trust me, since vendors in the US mostly offer high end models only people don't have a chance to check these out but low end TVs have low delay, ideal for games.

    Quoting this here before you edit it out. BTW, DisplayLag.com always tests using the fastest input method, whether it be set to PC mode or Game mode or whether or not a TV even offers those options.


    You're so full of it. You know what, I can prove it right now. The display you're using is 35 ms of input lag, and don't try to pull some 32 vs 42 size non-sense, them shits all use the same components across size models. That's technically 3 frames man. Haha!!

    2012 42" LG 42LM3400 1080p 60hz 3D LED HDTV BTM 35ms

    Look, I've been gaming on a CRT all my damn life until the last year. That's 32 years of CRT gaming. I can't fucking tell the difference between 1 and 2 frames of lag, when I play on a ASUS monitor my only gripe is how shitty they look. I can tell the difference at 4 to 5 frames of lag, but the difference is incredibly small and doesn't affect my gaming much.

    To put it into perspective for you, 2/60th's of a second (which is 2 frames of lag) is equal to missing 1 frame of animation in a 30 fps game. I bet you anything I could do a double blind test and 95% of humans tested wouldn't be able to see a single dropped frame in a 30 fps game. Let alone a 60 fps game that is much smoother, no human will ever notice that, ever.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    You need to check yo math bruddah.

    16.7 ms = 1 frame of lag
    1 sec = 60 frames
    60 * 16.7ms = 1002 ms

    No digital display in the world is 1 ms of lag. 1 ms is also IMPOSSIBLE for a human to see. 1 frame is well below the ability of a human to discern lag. The threshold is about 70 ms which is 5 to 6 frames of lag, and it's pretty minute, though noticeable to a slight degree. I have several low lag CRT displays (as low as it gets, it wasn't until the world decided to move on from CRT that lag became an issue) and there is only a slight difference compared to another display I have with 4 to 5 frames of lag in low processing mode and 8 frames in all the bells and whistles of processing mode. 4 to 5 frames is noticeable, slightly. 8 frames is extremely noticeable, and not very fun to use, but is somewhat functional.

    20 to 30 ms of lag is only 1 to 2 frames, not 12.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,901
    edited January 2014
    pablofsi wrote: »
    I don't know about theories but I can easily differentiate the time it takes for stuff to happen with 0, 1 and 2 delay frames, I mean the difference between 0 and 2 frames changes how you play (in a fighting game) completely and takes away a lot of the fun.

    My TV set actually has a delay problem: (while labelled as PC) the last HDMI port you've connected is the one that gets the less delay. The other one (port 1 or 2 doesn't matter though, only thing that matters is which one you've connected before or recently) gets a 1 and a half more delay, and that is a world of delay. Even the PS4 menu feels different.

    Again what you claiming is not humanly possible. No Human alive can notice 1/30th of a second, so forget 1/60th of a second.
    when adrenalin is rushing and you are somebody with good working reflexes, 1 frame should be noticable, barely bu still noticable.

    a friend of mine bought this 1ms lag monitor from benq i believe, but it's smaller than 30 inches. is 1ms even possible on modern full hd monitors? and something more important, are there any tv's full hd with at least 40 inches that are 1ms lag?

    btw, there's 100ms in a second, right? how can there be tv's with 20 to 30ms of lag. that at least 12 frames of lag or more.
    Bull Shit. No amount of adrenalin is going to give you super human sight and perception.
    If what is saying is true than you no longer notice smooth motion in games, movies or TV, just a series of static images with each frame slightly different then the next.

    If what you are saying is true, every screen in the world would look like they are flickering to you, and everyone else would be in slow motion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi_phenomenon
    This Wiki article touches the psychological reasons why your claim is false.

    And with Moonchilde's math, you are telling us you notice 1/1002nd of a second
    The only animals known to do that are insects.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Bull Shit. No amount of adrenalin is going to give you super human sight and perception.
    If what is saying is true than you no longer notice smooth motion in games, movies or TV, just a series of static images with each frame slightly different then the next.

    If what you are saying is true, every screen in the world would look like they are flickering to you, and everyone else would be in slow motion.

    I was going to make this point myself. If people could really see the difference between 1 and 2 frames of lag then they wouldn't be able to see motion on displays. LCD would be a series of static images with pixel smear between them and plasma/CRT would be full black screens between each image.

    Yes, we can see lag especially in motion control games, but not at that level. These claims are beyond ridiculous.
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Again what you claiming is not humanly possible. No Human alive can notice 1/30th of a second, so forget 1/60th of a second.

    Right, if people could they'd be able to detect when a game that runs at 30 fps drops to 29 for a single frame and then back to 30 fps. No one can, so that is why there are machines that do that for us to count frames for web sites like Digital Foundry and why games will come with FPS bench marks. All these utilities would be meaningless.

    I'm not even touching the adrenaline thing. All you have to do to prove that instance wrong is ask someone who was under an adrenaline rush about the details of that last 5 seconds of their life and watch the blank look on their face.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    You read too many manga, dude. No human is cutting BB's shot from a gun with a sheathed Katana, you are fucking nuts. Trained fighters hitting lights doesn't mean that they are hitting the light the second it goes on, they will still take time to hit it even if it is 1 second. Think about how fast we press buttons during mash moves, even the best players are only hitting about 14 to 15 inputs per second which is 1 button press every 4 frames and these are guys who can mash like crazy, and mashing buttons is much less physical movement than punching something.

    Obviously at this point you are trolling, so from here on out I really don't care what you reply with, because you're full of shit.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,901
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    I'm not even touching the adrenaline thing. All you have to do to prove that instance wrong is ask someone who was under an adrenaline rush about the details of that last 5 seconds of their life and watch the blank look on their face.
    The whole Adrenaline rush thing is almost comedic. Nothing in the entirety of the FGC will ever give the same adrenaline rush actual physical activity gives, and I going to tell you now as someone who used to serve in the United States Marine Corps a thing or two about adrenaline rushes. You think semi finals of Evo is stressful, try a actual fight for survival where you actual life is on the line.
    Even then you do not get this super human sight and perception, if anything things move faster to your perspective not slower. The whole event is a blur.

    This dude reads way to much manga, watch anime, and play video games. Talking about crap about trained fighters.

    @Sadistic Masochist
    you realise that by the time it takes a normal person to see a light go on, a trained fighter in that same amount of time can register the light go on, hit that light with a punch, pull his punch back and start looking for where the next light on said dummy will light.
    Yea , see that statement is pure bull shit.

    Son you have no concept what a trained fighter is. A trained fighter is not this triple black belt from the movies, that isn't a fighter that is Hollywood. Even real martial artist, they are not warriors, they are sportsmen, sportsmen who probability cry in a real situation; modern martial arts is more about sport than it is warfare.
    An actual Fighter will do anything at the end of the battle to stay alive Even if they have to play dirty. It is not about speed, or muscle build, its about being the grittiest, dirtiest, smartest and most opportunist guy in the fight. Yes a real fighter needs to be fit, but in reality a actual trained fighter is at best at the same fitness level as a pro athlete, not some near-super human in some game made by Capcom. Yes Military police and such are shown martial arts, but we don't have none of this crap of training for decades, no one has the time. You are shown the basics and how to overcome anyone who knows Martial Arts by learning how to effectively take someone down , what are the tricks and how to fight dirty. And I mean in a life to death situation there no time for form or style, its a fist full of sand in the guys eyes then hit the guy with a board of wood with nails sticking out of it until that board shatters.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive likes Saturn pads. Joined: Posts: 1,807
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Again what you claiming is not humanly possible. No Human alive can notice 1/30th of a second, so forget 1/60th of a second.
    I think most fighting game players with functioning motor skills ought to be able to notice a difference of 3 frames of delay at 60fps. I certainly can, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that some can notice 2 (even if the person you're arguing with might be full of shit).

    I know this is off-topic and all, but I just can't let someone get by implying that 1/30th of a second isn't a big deal in this forum and this thread of all places.
    "This is a perfectly balanced VS." - PTX-40A, Tatsunoko Vs Capcom
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,901
    edited January 2014
    Here is the same guy in a video in English without any of the game show BS.


    Isao Machii who holds a number of Guinness World Records for his sword skills
    According to medical doctors, Isao still does not see the pellet, that he is anticipating the shot and reacting to the sound of the shot.
    And both videos it takes Isao multiple times to get this trick right.

    And even then Isao Machii as proven by science can't see a single frame drop. Debuked by your own claims. Even then Isao Machii is a unique case.
    Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/isao-machii-modern-day-samurai-cuts-pellet-half_n_2377386.html
    you ain't beating a top heavyweight contender, be it from boxing, kickbox or mma.
    Yeah I am not beating Brock Lesner, a young Mohamed Ali or even Jean Claude Van Damme in a match. Then again Wresling, Boxing, Martial Arts matches even MMA have rules including a list of things you aren't allowed to do.
    In a real fight, Brock Lesner taking a Baseball bat to the knee a from a guy coming out the shadows and taking him down with a cheap shot.

    Stop mixing up fantasy with reality.

    @Sixfortyfive
    I never said 1/30th of a second isn't a big deal
    I just said its not humanly possible to notice a event that takes only 1/30th of a second.
    You maybe notice the aftereffects of such lags, as the animation didn't seem so fluid for a moment

    Here is another thing to prove my point,

    out of Disney's 12 principals of animation, the most "fun" is Squash and stretch
    The change of shape of a object to facilitate motion in animation.

    here are some real world examples taken out of single frames of Disney animation (because motion tweens are for scrubs)
    tumblr_me4hsloj1b1qgbzseo5_500.jpg
    tumblr_me4hsloj1b1qgbzseo2_500.jpg
    I bet you never saw these stills before, how you can not notice them, because you can't no human can notice a 1/30th of a second especially once animated.

    Here the article that explains it further
    http://rebloggy.com/post/gif-disney/36633009732

    QBee.gif
    Here more squash and stretch with Queen Bee.
    Post edited by Darksakul on
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
Sign In or Register to comment.