A more complete explanation of the Shun Goku Satsu

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  • Last DragonLast Dragon Joined: Posts: 134
    YagamiFire wrote: »
    snip


    1. You said in the OP, "Please keep in mind this stuff is all my interpretation and opinion", so now that I'm disagreein' with you I'm "wrong". Are fuckin' foolin' me bro?!

    2. Doesn't matter who the fuck said the more you sin the harder you die, it only matters that IT WAS ACTUALLY SAID IN THE GAME. I don't give a fuck what YOU think it means. It is what was said about the move in the game I played. You can try to attach that shit to your own philosophies but your shit aint facts.

    There are endings that refute E.Honda's. Everyone can't beat Bison, just use some common sense when you wanna decide what's canon and what's not. Capcom has never actually confirmed most people's endings or story events which I don't understand why people get so upset and bent up over SF's plot. You folks care more about this shit than they do.

    3. My example is, MU WAS NOT FUCKIN' MENTIONED IN SFA3. You're tryin' to attach a real martial arts (and also plausible, I will admit) concept to a dude who fuckin' splits mountains and blows up islands. IN THE GAME it was stated that the move fucks over evil people worse. I'm not gonna ignore what the game ACTUALLY said cuz what you say makes more sense. You're not gonna get me to do that. A whole bunch of supernatural shit goes on in SF for no reason, not gonna assume the SGS is any more than what it was stated to be.

    4. You are actually thinkin' about shit way too much. You remind me of people who try to make sense outta or philosophise the Tim and Eric Show. Gouken was stated to use Mu, okay, Gouken used Mu to survive and came back years later. Gen immediately defended against the SGS. Bison uses body hops, Gill resurrects and I'm sure Oro could probably avoid it too, there is obviously more than one way to get around it. Everyone doesn't have to use Mu. Case solved.

    5. Bison get's SGSed in SF2. YOU CAN FUCKIN' SEE IT. Akuma slides up on him and he dies, in the game. Then you fight Akuma, instead. Almost nothin' in SFII is referenced or referred to in SFIV. Hell, SFIV does very little to reference any other SF outside of itself. They don't even say who won the SFII tournament.

    6.Can you read? I never said Akuma sends people to Hell, infact, I SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE. My exact words...

    "I never believed the whole demons mobbin' you in Hell bullshit, but I do think the move is way more supernatural than just ultra fast strikes. (paraphrasing) I do think it is some spiritual shit, tho."
    You can believe in spirit and soul without believin' in religions. Many atheist and agnostics believe people have souls. Spirit is not a synonym for afterlife, despite stupid and popular belief.

    Now sit and fuckin' spin, bro. Capcom has never said what the move actually is, only that you will pay for your sins when he does it, so I'm not gonna make some shit up and force it down people's throats. I'll know the true explanation of the SGS when Capcom says it and that's if I still even care enough to know. Til' then, if Capcom doesn't give a damn, neither do I.

    My case is rested.

    I agree. This is what it comes down to, really. Capcom says the plot or some sort of bg info goes from A to B and now you have people trying to explain what happened in between. Nobody really knows so anything anyone spouts off is just opinion until proven with facts produced by Capcom. It seems all SF games fail to make sufficient reference to the plot of the games before it so you're left trying to piece together the plots as best you can on your own. I have read before that Capcom cares so little that devs actually think that every game is in its own universe but then if you dig deep enough, there are certain little sections in the SF:EC that specifically tie the plots form each game together, albeit, in subtle ways.

    I also remember Seth saying that Evil Ryu and Oni were actually canon and that some of the devs really wanted to flesh the story of those guys out, but there wasn't enough time. But for people who actually pay attention to the plot, this was kind of a crazy thing to introduce and then say it is canon without explaining how. Again, just another example of how little they care, for God sake, they included SFIII characters and failed to given even a hint at SFIII's oncoming plot. I mean they didn't have to, but really? Who does that.

    Also to note, I too think that Darkstalkers lore, specifically, is really crazy. I bought an art book with an encyclopedia in it some time ago, and there was some wild information in there. I don't like how that series ended on a cliff hanger.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    1. You said in the OP, "Please keep in mind this stuff is all my interpretation and opinion", so now that I'm disagreein' with you I'm "wrong". Are fuckin' foolin' me bro?!

    You're wrong because you aren't actually offering any information. You're just ranting and reiterating stuff that has already been refuted through newer games (which you had admitted you are ignorant of) and better translations (of which you are apparently ignorant of the source material). Also the OP was written over two years ago...I'm pretty sure of this shit by now.
    2. Doesn't matter who the fuck said the more you sin the harder you die, it only matters that IT WAS ACTUALLY SAID IN THE GAME. I don't give a fuck what YOU think it means. It is what was said about the move in the game I played. You can try to attach that shit to your own philosophies but your shit aint facts.

    Find the quote. Go find the source of the quote if you're so sure that's what got said. Because it's not in the fucking game like you are insisting it is. It NEVER says "the more you sin the harder you die". I have already put what the quote is several times. I have factually put what the quote is. You are making up a quote/pulling one from your ass/using an incorrect one THEN applying meaning to it. How the hell could that be correct? "The game you played?" The fuck you talking about? Bring some proof, son.
    There are endings that refute E.Honda's. Everyone can't beat Bison, just use some common sense when you wanna decide what's canon and what's not. Capcom has never actually confirmed most people's endings or story events which I don't understand why people get so upset and bent up over SF's plot. You folks care more about this shit than they do.

    Yeah except many times in the guide books they DO confirm events.
    3. My example is, MU WAS NOT FUCKIN' MENTIONED IN SFA3. You're tryin' to attach a real martial arts (and also plausible, I will admit) concept to a dude who fuckin' splits mountains and blows up islands. IN THE GAME it was stated that the move fucks over evil people worse. I'm not gonna ignore what the game ACTUALLY said cuz what you say makes more sense. You're not gonna get me to do that. A whole bunch of supernatural shit goes on in SF for no reason, not gonna assume the SGS is any more than what it was stated to be.

    First, the move was not stated to fuck over evil people worse. That is pulled from your ass (again, waiting for the proof). Second of all this (MU WAS NOT FUCKIN' MENTIONED IN SFA3) is too fucking funny.

    "Onore wo mu ni suru"

    MU

    The reason why Gen survived the Raging Demon...from Capcom's own SFA3 supplementary materials.

    In other words: Shut up. Go home. You don't know what you're talking about.
    4. You are actually thinkin' about shit way too much. You remind me of people who try to make sense outta or philosophise the Tim and Eric Show. Gouken was stated to use Mu, okay, Gouken used Mu to survive and came back years later. Gen immediately defended against the SGS. Bison uses body hops, Gill resurrects and I'm sure Oro could probably avoid it too, there is obviously more than one way to get around it. Everyone doesn't have to use Mu. Case solved.

    And you don't think about this shit at all, so what are you doing here? The material states Gen used Mu. Fact. The only people to EVER canonically get hit by the SGS and live are Gen and Gouken. Both used Mu. Nothing current or corroborated points to anyone else (Bison & Gill included) getting hit with the SGS.
    5. Bison get's SGSed in SF2. YOU CAN FUCKIN' SEE IT. Akuma slides up on him and he dies, in the game. Then you fight Akuma, instead. Almost nothin' in SFII is referenced or referred to in SFIV. Hell, SFIV does very little to reference any other SF outside of itself. They don't even say who won the SFII tournament.

    Oh he dies? Looks knocked out to me. And just because you saw it in the game doesn't make it a canon event. Akuma was a hidden boss. An easter egg. He had no canon story place in the game at the time of his inclusion.
    6.Can you read? I never said Akuma sends people to Hell, infact, I SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE. My exact words...

    "I never believed the whole demons mobbin' you in Hell bullshit, but I do think the move is way more supernatural than just ultra fast strikes. (paraphrasing) I do think it is some spiritual shit, tho."
    You can believe in spirit and soul without believin' in religions. Many atheist and agnostics believe people have souls. Spirit is not a synonym for afterlife, despite stupid and popular belief.

    You can believe something all you want...do you have anything canonical to support it?
    Now sit and fuckin' spin, bro. Capcom has never said what the move actually is, only that you will pay for your sins when he does it, so I'm not gonna make some shit up and force it down people's throats. I'll know the true explanation of the SGS when Capcom says it and that's if I still even care enough to know. Til' then, if Capcom doesn't give a damn, neither do I.

    My case is rested.

    For someone that "doesn't give a damn" you're writing fucking paragraphs, man. You're wrong. What you're referencing is wrong. Facts you're using don't exist or are incomplete.

    Capcom HAS already said what the move is...Akuma says it himself. "One moment, 1000 strikes". That is what the SGS is. Stated IN GAME.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • FengShuiEnergyFengShuiEnergy ARIA is the only answer Joined: Posts: 11,681
    Now whether or not he speaks metaphorically...dunno. I'm putting my money on metaphor. Game-wise if it really was 1000 strikes Capcom could have done the 1000 hit combo cap easily just solely for that move...could of...
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    Now whether or not he speaks metaphorically...dunno. I'm putting my money on metaphor. Game-wise if it really was 1000 strikes Capcom could have done the 1000 hit combo cap easily just solely for that move...could of...

    Yeah. Kinda hard to know if it's literally 1000 strikes. I suppose it's possible. I think the SGS was originally created in a time when 15 hits was already pretty damn high...and 1000 for a combo would have just looked like parody. Hmm.

    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • FengShuiEnergyFengShuiEnergy ARIA is the only answer Joined: Posts: 11,681
    Well I figured it would be like an easter egg. Either that or those 15 strikes felt like 1000...dunno.
  • StrudeliciousStrudelicious Joined: Posts: 80
    edited November 2013
    Asian cultures are well known for speaking in idiomatically. In order to say there were a lot of people in Chinese we say "人山人海" which translates directly to People-mountains-people-oceans. Pretty much saying that there was a sea, a mountain, a whole visible landscape entirely filled with people. This phrase has been used to describe a subway station during holiday seasons.

    There wasn't a time when 15 was a high number unless you go back to practically prehistoric times in Asia. The metric/base 10 counting system is built into our language far more deeply than even latin root languages. I applaud your efforts, but you can't approach this too scientifically. It could be an idiom, it could be lazy designers, it could be simple psychology and game design. If I got a 50 hit combo using akuma I'd be psyched, if I got a 1015 hit combo with akuma I wouldn't be as psyched because a majority of that counter was raised through a gimmick despite the former number being the same.

    Also, although his source material isn't as complete as you, I personally think that the root of his argument is PLAUSIBLE. There very well COULD be a supernatural element to SGS. Maybe not with something cosmically significant like heaven or hell, but certainly something that's non corporeal. Remember that this was a game first, a game that was really really shitty (used pneumatic buttons for Christ's sake). Canon is something that is so difficult to establish. Logic is something that is impractical to use. I would prefer this stay in the realm of conjecture and not attempt to establish ultimate truth. This way this thread can stay alive as alternative theories, and provide endless sources of entertainment as well as multiple possibilities for the thousands of viewers on this board to ruminate over; rather than your personal journal into your hypothesis of the mechanics of SGS.
  • Keepin'em HonestKeepin'em Honest Da Last Real N*gga Left Joined: Posts: 763
    edited November 2013
    YagamiFire wrote: »

    You're wrong because you aren't actually offering any information. You're just ranting and reiterating stuff that has already been refuted through newer games (which you had admitted you are ignorant of) and better translations (of which you are apparently ignorant of the source material). Also the OP was written over two years ago...I'm pretty sure of this shit by now.

    Find the quote. Go find the source of the quote if you're so sure that's what got said. Because it's not in the fucking game like you are insisting it is. It NEVER says "the more you sin the harder you die". I have already put what the quote is several times. I have factually put what the quote is. You are making up a quote/pulling one from your ass/using an incorrect one THEN applying meaning to it. How the hell could that be correct? "The game you played?" The fuck you talking about? Bring some proof, son.

    Yeah except many times in the guide books they DO confirm events.

    First, the move was not stated to fuck over evil people worse. That is pulled from your ass (again, waiting for the proof). Second of all this (MU WAS NOT FUCKIN' MENTIONED IN SFA3) is too fucking funny.

    "Onore wo mu ni suru"

    MU

    The reason why Gen survived the Raging Demon...from Capcom's own SFA3 supplementary materials.

    In other words: Shut up. Go home. You don't know what you're talking about.

    And you don't think about this shit at all, so what are you doing here? The material states Gen used Mu. Fact. The only people to EVER canonically get hit by the SGS and live are Gen and Gouken. Both used Mu. Nothing current or corroborated points to anyone else (Bison & Gill included) getting hit with the SGS.
    5. Bison get's SGSed in SF2. YOU CAN FUCKIN' SEE IT. Akuma slides up on him and he dies, in the game. Then you fight Akuma, instead. Almost nothin' in SFII is referenced or referred to in SFIV. Hell, SFIV does very little to reference any other SF outside of itself. They don't even say who won the SFII tournament.

    Oh he dies? Looks knocked out to me. And just because you saw it in the game doesn't make it a canon event. Akuma was a hidden boss. An easter egg. He had no canon story place in the game at the time of his inclusion.



    For someone that "doesn't give a damn" you're writing fucking paragraphs, man. You're wrong. What you're referencing is wrong. Facts you're using don't exist or are incomplete.

    Capcom HAS already said what the move is...Akuma says it himself. "One moment, 1000 strikes". That is what the SGS is. Stated IN GAME.

    1. So then you do have low readin' comprehension. I NEVER said that my view was a fact, and I'm sayin' that your's aint fact either. You're just as "wrong" as I am. lol

    2. This is hilarious...


    AKUMA:
    "The more evil your past doings, the more painful your death."
    Where are you gettin' your shit from, cuz it damn sure aint the games?

    3. The SF guide books confirm very few events that actually occur at the end of the games.

    4. Are you a retarded? "Onore wo mu ni suru" means to "empty your spirit/self" which is what the fuck I said Gen did to survive. I meant SFA isn't talkin' about Mu in this super ridiculous philosophical way you're tryin' to force people into. It is as it was said, deal with it.

    5. Gen emptied his soul, that's all I'm sayin' and that's all I've been sayin', call it whatever the fuck you want. And Bison is seen bein' hit with the SGS in the game. It happens in the game, as clear as day. YOU have to prove that it didn't happen. I don't have prove that it did...since it did.

    You are are correct about Gill, tho. Akuma jumps and and kills your rival, not Gill. I was wrong about that one.

    6. Don't try to argue semantics, that's pathetic. Akuma jumps in and hits Bison with the SGS. What evidence do you have that Akuma wasn't canon?! Hell, what evidence do you have that characters like DJay, T.Hawk, E.Honda and Fei Long ARE canon?! SF's canon is a fuckin' mess. lol

    7. Not gonna get in a pissin' contest with you about who cares more or less about this shit. I just know I aint tryin to force my opinion on others so that I can feel important.

    8. Akuma also says alotta other shit like, "your sins will kill you, not his fists", "witness the death of your soul", "If you are merciless, your soul will be slaughtered!", "It's time for you to experience a million deaths in an instant!", and "And now, evil one, you reap what you have sown!".

    Just cuz you like your idea best, doesn't make it fact. Come back here when you have REAL PROOF, from Capcom. Til' then, hush.

    Wonder why I'm even wasting my time
    Even replying to letcha know I don't feel you
    Fuck 'em!

    -TI-
  • Last DragonLast Dragon Joined: Posts: 134
    What's funny is, none of the explanations posted in the op actually come from Capcom. This is akin to trying to explain some of Final Fantasy VII's mysteries by using the real story of Bahamut and the real story Sephiroth to tie up loose ends. Or trying to explain plot holes in Naruto by applying real world ninja beliefs that are loosely mentioned or used with a great deal of liberty and then passing it off as fact. You simply can't do that. It's cool, but you can't rage when people point this.
  • Keepin'em HonestKeepin'em Honest Da Last Real N*gga Left Joined: Posts: 763
    edited November 2013

    Also, although his source material isn't as complete as you, I personally think that the root of his argument is PLAUSIBLE. There very well COULD be a supernatural element to SGS. Maybe not with something cosmically significant like heaven or hell, but certainly something that's non corporeal. Remember that this was a game first, a game that was really really shitty (used pneumatic buttons for Christ's sake). Canon is something that is so difficult to establish. Logic is something that is impractical to use. I would prefer this stay in the realm of conjecture and not attempt to establish ultimate truth. This way this thread can stay alive as alternative theories, and provide endless sources of entertainment as well as multiple possibilities for the thousands of viewers on this board to ruminate over; rather than your personal journal into your hypothesis of the mechanics of SGS.

    QFT

    I'm not sayin' what exactly happens durin' the move as a fact, I just offered up an opinion based upon what's been said in the games. There is enough room in what has been said to believe that somethin' besides "Akuma hittin' you really fast" is goin' on durin' the attack. There is enough room for people to have different opinions about this subject. I actually don't think Akuma is draggin' anybody to Hell, I've said this at least 3 times already, but a spiritual assault is very possible considerin' their is a heavy focus on soul/spiritual powers in these games. They are video games and they contain plots and information that Capcom has left wide open for interpretation.

    Idk why this is so hard for him to understand.
    What's funny is, none of the explanations posted in the op actually come from Capcom. This is akin to trying to explain some of Final Fantasy VII's mysteries by using the real story of Bahamut and the real story Sephiroth to tie up loose ends. Or trying to explain plot holes in Naruto by applying real world ninja beliefs that are loosely mentioned or used with a great deal of liberty and then passing it off as fact. You simply can't do that. It's cool, but you can't rage when people point this.

    Exactly, it's like trynna use ancient Chinese chi beliefs to explain why Goku can use the Kamehameha Wave...And then gettin' mad at people for usin' other tidbits of info within DB to form a different opinion. It's ridiculous. I'm only gonna go buy what is in the games, Word of God, and source books. If other folks choose to do other shit, that's fine, I don'cur.

    Wonder why I'm even wasting my time
    Even replying to letcha know I don't feel you
    Fuck 'em!

    -TI-
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,033
    I actually don't think Akuma is draggin' anybody to Hell, I've said this at least 3 times already, but a spiritual assault is very possible considerin' their is a heavy focus on soul/spiritual powers in these games. They are video games and they contain plots and information that Capcom has left wide open for interpretation.

    Is that where Ed Boon got the idea for Scorpion's 2nd fatality?
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Dear SRK, I hate you for bringing this thread to my attention.
    My youtube channel (various MVC3 vids etc.):

    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrouchStrong?feature=mhsn
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    edited November 2013
    1. So then you do have low readin' comprehension. I NEVER said that my view was a fact, and I'm sayin' that your's aint fact either. You're just as "wrong" as I am. lol

    The person that brings actual facts to the discussion is typically far more correct than the person just repeating stuff they "heard that one time".
    2. This is hilarious...


    AKUMA:
    "The more evil your past doings, the more painful your death."
    Where are you gettin' your shit from, cuz it damn sure aint the games?

    Gets asked for canon evidence. Posts American translations.

    Where am I getting my shit from? How about the original Japanese texts, source books and reference materials from the creators? Where are you getting it from? Oh yeah, obsolete information released in a format (the US releases) that was NEVER canon to begin with.

    Try to keep up here. We're discussing the canon of Street Fighter using canon source material. That does not mean the version of SF Alpha you played on your Saturn in Hoboken.

    Also what you're posting has already been addressed both in the OP and in this thread...several times. The quote is that Akuma tells the victim not to blame his fist for their death but rather their own inequities. They are killed by their "sins". Your weakness. Your lack of training. Lack of ability. Akuma fucking MURDERS people. He is a character steeped in Buddhism that is a HORRIBLE BUDDHIST and is rife with actual sins. "Sin" or "wrong doing" to US is not the same thing as to Akuma. How is that not obvious? I'll also point out the fact that of the three people included in discussion of the SGS (Gouken, Gen and, for sake of argument, Bison) Gouken is the only one that got totally fucked up by it and the guy is basically a saint. How the hell does that make sense if it's based on "sin"? Oh right...it makes no sense whatsoever.
    3. The SF guide books confirm very few events that actually occur at the end of the games.

    Yeah-huh.
    4. Are you a retarded? "Onore wo mu ni suru" means to "empty your spirit/self" which is what the fuck I said Gen did to survive. I meant SFA isn't talkin' about Mu in this super ridiculous philosophical way you're tryin' to force people into. It is as it was said, deal with it.

    And why do you think that is what that phrase means? Oh right because you HEARD IT somewhere and just accepted it. Or did you translate it yourself? The phrase means to "open ones self to nothingness". There is NOTHING NOT philosophical about that. It is ENTIRELY philosophical and rooted in Zen Buddhism, martial arts lore and the teachings of folks like Lao Tzu. These games aren't made in a vacuum by robots...they're made by human beings with cultural backgrounds that inject those backgrounds into the material they make. That you don't want to think about stuff has no baring on the thought that went into it.

    Gen used Mu to survive. He reached a state of Mu/nothingness and was able to "defend" against the SGS by doing so. That is all canon from the supplementary material. The material I have. The material I have read. The material I have translated several times to try to get the most meaning out of it. I didn't just read it somewhere on a wiki and regurgitate it thinking I'm correct.
    5. Gen emptied his soul, that's all I'm sayin' and that's all I've been sayin', call it whatever the fuck you want. And Bison is seen bein' hit with the SGS in the game. It happens in the game, as clear as day. YOU have to prove that it didn't happen. I don't have prove that it did...since it did.

    You are are correct about Gill, tho. Akuma jumps and and kills your rival, not Gill. I was wrong about that one.

    No, Gen did not "empty his soul". That has already been addressed. Repeatedly. That phrase doesn't even make sense.
    6. Don't try to argue semantics, that's pathetic. Akuma jumps in and hits Bison with the SGS. What evidence do you have that Akuma wasn't canon?! Hell, what evidence do you have that characters like DJay, T.Hawk, E.Honda and Fei Long ARE canon?! SF's canon is a fuckin' mess. lol

    Yes, I am sure SFs canon is a mess...not your understanding of it. Pretty much everyone that posts around here has a fair handle on SFs canon. Are there some obscure things? Sure. Are there some debatable things? Absolutely. Are there sources to help clarify much of this? Yes. Again, that you're ignorant of something isn't an excuse to tell other people they don't know what they're talking about.
    7. Not gonna get in a pissin' contest with you about who cares more or less about this shit. I just know I aint tryin to force my opinion on others so that I can feel important.

    You already said I "think too much" about it...which is tacit admittance that you think less about it.
    8. Akuma also says alotta other shit like, "your sins will kill you, not his fists", "witness the death of your soul", "If you are merciless, your soul will be slaughtered!", "It's time for you to experience a million deaths in an instant!", and "And now, evil one, you reap what you have sown!".

    All English quotes. Very nice. Feel free to join the actual canon discussion any time.
    Just cuz you like your idea best, doesn't make it fact. Come back here when you have REAL PROOF, from Capcom. Til' then, hush.

    Coming from someone that has only quoted poorly translated (or purposefully changed) English games? Yeah okay. GTFO, man. I've got a bookshelf of real proof. What do you have? Oh that's right...some shit you heard on the interwebs one time and thought it made you know what the fuck you were talking about. Okay.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

    Visit us at the Street Fighter story thread! Click here!
  • RokisephRokiseph The Subtle Rushdowner. Joined: Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2014
    Wow. i'm late into this one.

    I just want to contribute.

    From a Buddhist standpoint, a third way of looking at it, when Gouki says "You are killed by your sins", it actually means karma has caught up with you. It is not my fist that kills you , but it is that karma has caught up with you. i.e. if Gouki hadn't been the one to kill the person, something else would have a la Final Destination Style. So YES Physically Gouki has just bashed you to death...(And NO he probably doesn't believe that he will get bad karma for this because it is just that person's karma catching up on him. And Gouki is the tool for that to happen.)

    And this ties in very very closely to "Onore Wo Mu ni Suru", it is simply saying, "I have become Mu." At this point I'd like to mention that Mu is likely here used as a concept where, you have no more karmic delusions as a person with Buddhist nature. When you become Mu, you are free from repercussions of karma. I don't want to make this TLDR, but I can safely say that those who understand the generalities of what is Samsara, how to break out of it, what Kleshas are, and how understanding Wu is just one of the ways of attaining liberation etc, have a much much easier time understanding how this all plays a part of how Gen survived the SGS or why Gouken has Mu on his back.

    So 2 things.

    1. Gen might have attained Mu, and might have had meditative concentration and also great discipline, but he does still have that hang up about dying in glorious battle with a strong fighter so...i don't know if he'll actually break out from Samsara.
    2. But if we overlook that as the ONLY thing , then he likely has done away with the other emotions of fear and anger and anxiety and all that PLUS he super disciplined and super focused and Gouki can sense that he's attained Mu (Which plays into what happened after the fight), then it's very likely Gen survived SGS just because he's REALLY THAT GOOD. And not distracted by even an ounce of feelings or unskillfulness.

    So INDIRECTLY it *is* because Gen emptied his soul, but no in the " Nah Nah My Soul Is Empty You Can't Drag My Soul Down To Hell Nah nah!" (And there's that whole thing about SGS not being instant 'Hell" Murder' but "Instant Entrapment Murder" and thereabouts).

    And then what happens when Gouki wins? He lets Gen go because Gen is sick. Gouki doesn't kill him because Gouki doesn't feel that it is Gen's time to die, and doesn't feel that he himself is the tool to dispense Gen's fate of 'death', because Gen has achieved Mu!. Seriously would Gouki let Gen live if he thought that this fight was all about 'Oh it's time for you to die because Kamma has caught up on you and it is your time."

    ALSO, Capcom has probably taken creative liberties with all these information about Buddhism, so expect shortenings and more generalisations. Like 'Using Mu To Stop SGS' kind of thing. But I'm just here trying to say, that I do see that it is wayyy more logical when it comes to the many quotes and to the characterisations of the characters the way this thread has been putting it out, compared to the "LOOK I'M A MAGICIAN, YOUR SOUL IS NOW IN HELL!" And suddenly Gouki is a Soulmancer, Gen is Soulless, and Gouken doesn't know what to sew on the back of his clothes so 'Mu' is just his placeholder.

    Ok I realise I'm saying the same thing with different words. And it's becoming TLDR, and it is extremely possible that those unfamiliar with Buddhism might take a while to understand this. but please do take your time to digest it. Please?

    And btw to the dude who was wondering if the last hit of the SGS was that Gouki thrusts his arm through you...No. That was the only way Ryu could survive the SGS, Ryu himself was the one who impaled himself onto Gouki's arm, so that he would have a Bloody Chance To Survive. The reason behind it was because in the manga, SGS is roughly like a series of hadokens released into the body, I would imagine that last hit would have totally destroyed your internal organs if it had had hit. Ryu probably was like "Let's see, Lungs AND Kidney AND Liver AND Stomach AND intestines AND heart? Ok maybe if I do THIS *impales himself into the last hit* He'll just puncture My Lungcoughgagbloodeverywhere. #don'tknowhowI'mstillbreathing #atleastmylunchisintact #ithoughti'mgoingtogetthiswoundfromAsura"

    And to the other dude who asked if YagamiFire could have shortened his posts from earlier on? The answer sadly is No, because due to the nature of these discussions, it is the explanations and details that reveal the truth, not a summary. I have been caught in such situations before, where we need to discuss, but have been ignored because of people going TL;DR (Why are we 'Discussing' it then? We should just hashtag and tweet everything like #SGSDrasgyersoul and someone replies with #Nobecauseofyoudon'tknowBuddhism and then everyones confused).
    Post edited by Rokiseph on
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  • DaemosDaemos Queen Bitch of the Universe Joined: Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I've always felt that SGS is a physical attack (See: Ryu Final) and that the whole "soul/hell/sin" thing is a terrible Western/Christian mistranslation of an Asian concept (Buddhism in this case). I totally agree with you Yagami and Roki.

    I would like to deviate a bit though to a related topic of souls and SF.

    Similarly I've also felt that there has been a mistranslation regarding the origin of Rose. The idea that she was 'exorcized' is very odd to me. I know that Bison's consciousness is not limited to his physical form and can possess the bodies of others, and not necessarily killing them in the process. Professor X from X-Men has a similar ability. But the idea of splintering his "soul" into two parts doesn't seem to fit. I think there has been a big fuck up since Alpha 3 regarding Bison and Rose but I'm not sure what it is.

    Bison's encounter with SF4 has been no help at all and only adds to the confusion.
  • ShockdingoShockdingo Freelance voice actor & Reploid.PHD in Q speculation. Joined: Posts: 1,700
    Yeah the Bison-Rose Soul thing is....something hah. If I recall correctly, she was in the womb, fine and healthy, then got hit by Bison splintering off his goodness. Maybe not literally his soul/spirit/ etc, but maybe it was a form of essence? The whole basis of their powers is psychic phenomena, so maybe something got a little lost in translation, kind of like how Cammy's a "clone" not a genetically altered/engineered child, and the DBZ Androids are more like cyborgs rather than their namesakes?
    "Bison drinks DELICIOUS expired milk on tuesdays while driving trucks into wandering fighters." - m121akuma

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  • DaemosDaemos Queen Bitch of the Universe Joined: Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited June 2014
    Psycho and Soul Power are mental disciplines, both manifestations and manipulations of psychic energy. Bison and Rose being the only practitioners of this lost art (probably because Bison killed his peers) is the probably the reason why they "share the same soul", IE it's metaphorical and not Soul in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word. I'm not privy to the Japanese SFA3 Rose ending but the english one barely makes any sense. But here is what I can muster:

    1- Rose refers to Bison as Master, implying she could've studied under him or with him before he went psychopathic on everyone.

    2- Before Rose destroys Bison, Bison explains that his soul cannot be extinguished and asks her to foresee the future. In this vision, Rose sees that Bison did not die but has in fact possessed her body (an ability that Rose did not think Bison can do hence her surprise). Bison explains to her that they will become "two lives sharing one soul" which really means two consciousness inhabiting one body, he then explains that it is her that will "stand victorious at the day of doom" as in that it is through her that Bison will survive and achieve victory, referencing the fact that he has possessed her in this vision.

    3- The most important piece of evidence is the fact that Bison asks her to see the future. Bison and Rose never were "two lives sharing one soul" in the past, the vision that Rose sees and Bison explains is of an event that was yet to happen.

    4- The confusing part is "We'll return to where we belong as our wish", which could really mean that "you brought this onto yourself" or even "be careful what you wish for" because she's been trying to stop him for two games and hasn't figured that he's simply more powerful than her.

    Her SF4 Epilogue makes no mention of them sharing a history together as one person, only of the possession I just described. I'm not sure what Bison took from her but I believe he wiped her memory of the events. The "with interest" part is a reference to him kidnapping her (which was stopped by Guy). I do not think he was referring to fragments of his "soul". This is my take on it at least.


    And yes, Cammy is not a clone, she is genetically engineered much like the the little girl in Balrog's ending. However, much like Decapre, I do think they were engineered to be more sensitive to Psycho Power, which allows Bison to manipulate them easily and also by extension allows them some psycho power infused abilities.

    Seth and Abel are also genetically engineered clones, however Seth and the 27 host bodies were cybernetically augmented to better withstand Bison's power. I find it funny when they are referred to as androids.
    Post edited by Daemos on
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    Daemos, in regards to the SF4 Epilogue, Bison definitely seems to be wiping her memories...memories of all of Shadaloo and SINs data that Rose was privy too while in Bison's body. That is certainly something he wouldn't want her to have.

    Hmm I might have to review some of that stuff. I have also always considered the "soul" stuff to be very fishy from the plot guide (as I've pointed out before). It definitely seems more like a Vader/Luke thing...but with psychic warriors...wait Jedi ARE psychic warriors. Hmm. I'll have to think on this.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

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  • RokisephRokiseph The Subtle Rushdowner. Joined: Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited June 2014
    Oh thissss...from yearrrs agooo

    Yes. Let me start by saying this. The whole soul split thing was created and propagated within Shoryuken forums. It is nowhere outside of it, it is nowhere in ANY outside source material I searched in, I even went to Japanese forums and the Japanese themselves don't even see it anywhere near that way.

    I tried to tell Vasili that this was a result of (no doubt he worked hard at it) mistranslation of a certain phrase or passage (I will edit here when I remember what it was, but it's there in the thread a few years back, or sadly, in a PM now lost),

    Anyway I found the old thread http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/953778/#Comment_953778 where we discussed part of it.

    I can't find the old one in the Fan Fic thread. It must be there, I remember trying to explain to Vasili his mistranslation of 違えど, where Bison says "Our Lives are different but our soul..."

    Sorry Lord Vega if you're reading this I think a long time ago we talked about what AAC said. I think it was around the time i started to slowly disappear for a while. It was in a PM. I still have it. Edit :Also Lord Vega, I *do* agree that Katsute no Shi might be referring to her Master who is *not* Bison, it's simply the way it is written, and may be about completing the sentence "Master from before(he died)..." (and then trying to remember his warnings.) The fact is, I am forced to assume that Rose is Bison's disciple simply because the interpreter of the ending in AAC decided to take it that way, even though she might not know the whole intention of the sentence. but anyway...

    but yes, I've read, and AAC pretty much just said (and this is from the interpreters view but no need to go there)
    1. Rose is established to be Bison's disciple. <This is the interpreters own understanding of the ending. As written in the index.
    2. From that point in her ending, their souls were as one.
    ^ That's from the index
    This is exactly just how it is.
    Post edited by Rokiseph on
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  • DaemosDaemos Queen Bitch of the Universe Joined: Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Thanks for the post Roki, it's not far off from what I interpreted from the English ending above (so I'm not crazy!). The most confusing statement which is yet to make sense is "We'll return to where we belong as our wish" - what was their common goal? Capcom don't think it to be relevant because they only part they reference in that ending is the possession that took place and explain how Bison used her body to get back to his base, transferred his consciousness into a new body and disposed of Rose.

    Interestingly Bison did not kill her then and did not kill her in SF4. I guess he finds her useful like a tool and/or enjoys tormenting her (he refers to her as fodder in SF4 which implies Bison feeds off her fear/anger/hate by tormenting her possibly).
  • RokisephRokiseph The Subtle Rushdowner. Joined: Posts: 535 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Hi Daemos! (No you never were crazy) I always read that logically (interpreted) as "once again we have a common wish for the future "

    So it's not that they share the same wish from the past, but that now they both have a same wish again, for example (and example only ) previously they both wished for total world peace . Now, once he is in her body, he (and so by now her as well by default) wish for world domination.

    Honestly I think Capcom tweaked it so it's not what we can properly branch off from her SFZ3 ending anymore.

    The only way to do it is far fetched speculation like...guy carried rose -> Guy felt bison -> bison took over Guy because he actually was losing control of rose as well since he also couldn't conquer her (fair since she couldn't conquer him both times either)-> he had to run back to whatever place because in the game Guy's run is pretty fast so he left Rose there ( and in his haste left some stuff behind in Rose) -> Rose wakes up -> gets recaptured -_- -> bison takes more back, plus extra soul power.

    There. Now I feel dirty for this kind of speculation. I mean what the hell who'd speculate stuff like this and spread it around just cause it "fits" . I'll go take a shower now.
    K-Groove - "Under End" Team Todo, Haoh, Gief
    "The End" Team R4 - Dan
    I tell Dan everyday "Just because you're passionate does NOT mean you're talented
  • DaemosDaemos Queen Bitch of the Universe Joined: Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Well if go by SF4 and the New Canon™ which takes place months to a year after the events of SF2, then the possession of Rose was a separate and isolated event that is reminiscent of her SFA3 ending but is NOT her SFA3 ending.

    If the events of SF2 or rather the events preceding SF4 are what was in Viper's Aftermath video then no way Rose V Bison happened then. Rose herself references the possession that took place but as an event that happened "many years ago" and in the flashback it appears to be a 1v1 scenario between the two more similar to her SFA1/A2 endings.

    Guy and Rose knew one another prior to SF4 but in the New Canon™ and as far as we know, Guy coming to her rescue after a confrontation with Bison happened for the first time in SF4. There is nothing to suggest anymore that Rose's SFA3 ending happened as it is. What happened rather is that Ono recycled her SFA3 ending and turned it into two separate events - which are covered in Rose's prologue and epilogue in SF4.

  • MichaelMcCarterMichaelMcCarter Joined: Posts: 1
    As a Martial Artist I've studied many styles and forms. These ARE very deadly forms and take year's to Master. Though idea's such as fire ball's in real life people disagree. They are fool's. Only through year's of training and meditation and treating your body like a Temple will one understand their own chi. The word Impossible says I'm Possible. Remember this.

    If anyone would like to talk more look me up on FB Michael McCarter.

    Keep an open mind. Its not all fun and Game's. I've read all your Post's and yet it refers back to Street Fighter. Well I'm here to state that these are Actual Deadly Move's.

    Blessings to you all.
  • DRWDRW Joined: Posts: 439
    @MichaelMcCarter:

    This year's end --> Apostrophe since it's the genitive.
    The years go by --> No apostrophe since it's plural.

    Please learn the difference.
  • BB_HoodyBB_Hoody Nice plane you have there. Be a Shame if something went wrong in flight and it crashed Joined: Posts: 4,894
    I just have this question. Can the "raging demon" one hit KO any opponent regardless of their strength? Like we've seen it done to humans but what about Supernatural or Superpowered beings like higher class Darkstalkers such as Jedah Dohma and Morrigan, or Super beings like Superman or The Hulk? If it can then wouldn't it be more than just a thousand well placed strikes? I think the move would have to be supernatural to one shot such characters.
  • ShockdingoShockdingo Freelance voice actor & Reploid.PHD in Q speculation. Joined: Posts: 1,700
    I doubt it would do anything to the Darkstalkers. They're all so above the strongest Street Fighter it's insane. As for Superman and the Hulk, we would have to adapt them into the SF universe or adapt Akuma into their comic universes. The Street fighters are incredibly durable and capable of superhuman feats, though with SGS it's something that could probably do some serious damage/kill to someone like Captain America, but Hulk or Superman would shrug it off since it's not actually magic and from the analysis in this thread, doesn't literally take one to hell. Just my thoughts.
    "Bison drinks DELICIOUS expired milk on tuesdays while driving trucks into wandering fighters." - m121akuma

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  • BB_HoodyBB_Hoody Nice plane you have there. Be a Shame if something went wrong in flight and it crashed Joined: Posts: 4,894
    @Shockdingo "I doubt it would do anything to the Darkstalkers. They're all so above the strongest Street Fighter it's insane" I'm sure that's the case with the upper class ones like Jedah, Morrigan, Demetri, and Anakaris. But lower class ones like Felicia, Hsein-Ko, and Talbain, I doubt they're that tough. I was hoping to hear from the OP to see what he thought. Maybe this might give him something to think about. But I appreciate your input.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    BB_Hoody wrote: »
    I just have this question. Can the "raging demon" one hit KO any opponent regardless of their strength? Like we've seen it done to humans but what about Supernatural or Superpowered beings like higher class Darkstalkers such as Jedah Dohma and Morrigan, or Super beings like Superman or The Hulk? If it can then wouldn't it be more than just a thousand well placed strikes? I think the move would have to be supernatural to one shot such characters.

    In agreement with shockdingo. The Darkstalkers as far as I know (and my canon knowledge of Vampire is pretty limited) are pretty far beyond Street Fighters. Akuma would be in a tier that would probably not be totally outmatched by some of them, however. As far ast he one hit KO? No, it's not regardless of strength AT ALL. It's still a physical attack...and it isn't perfect. Akuma continues to create new techniques to try to make even deadlier attacks...and some of them output WAY more damage like splitting Ayers Rock, etc. It certainly is not a OHKO or OHKill. Not guaranteed. Not by a long-shot.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

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  • BB_HoodyBB_Hoody Nice plane you have there. Be a Shame if something went wrong in flight and it crashed Joined: Posts: 4,894
    @YagamiFire OK so the way you see it, the SGS is a very powerful physical attack, but if one is extremely powerful themselves such as the higher tier Darkstalkers then they can take the SGS. Ones "power level" does play a factor in withstanding the attack. Now answer this. How is the SGS able to one shot Dictator, and Gill? Sure they were able to revive themselves but they were still taken down by it. Or are they just not on the level of higher tier Darkstalkers?
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    The SGS can be tanked (probably impossible for anything human to do this since the SF fighters are still portrayed as relying on defense rather than developing superhuman durability) or, preferably, defended. That some Darkstalkers can tank it OR defend against it just speaks to their insane physical stats and durability.

    As for your question? It's kinda obvious. It didn't.

    Canonically, the SGS did not one shot Dictator or Gill. Dic being one-shot by it has always been of dubious canon-fact and has definitely since been retcon'd if it ever was to be taken as gospel, now having been nothing but a showing of "new villain stink" for Akuma before it was made clear that Akuma could not eclipse Dic as the premiere villain.

    As for Gill...yeah that never happened. There's no canon support for Gill ever having even MET Akuma, much less having received an SGS.

    Where are you getting your facts from? Vasili and the plot guide? He's a proven liar and the plot guide is, in turn, filled with his lies.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

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  • BB_HoodyBB_Hoody Nice plane you have there. Be a Shame if something went wrong in flight and it crashed Joined: Posts: 4,894
    The plot guide had said Gill was struck down by Akuma's SGS by surprise. But Akuma didn't realise Gill ressurected himself. As for Dictator the plot guide says he survived by using a new body. Hence his appearance in SF4. When I say one shot, I don't mean permanent death. I mean the character was defeated or rendered defenseless with one hit. I feel you have some really good theories, but I'm not gonna completely dismiss the plot that's official by Capcom
  • DRWDRW Joined: Posts: 439
    Hence his appearance in SF4.

    That's because the old canon was retconned and the old SF2 ending isn't true in the SF4 continuity anymore. If you want to know how SF2 ended inside the SF4 continuity, have a look at this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T51U8uQFrQo
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    edited January 2015
    As already explained, that situation with Dictator was of fuzzy continuity and then fully dismissed. It was originally a retcon then was retcon'd away. Regarding Gill...that seems to be plot guide fabrication. It's a game easter egg/in-joke with no other material support and I've never even seen anything to support Gill and Gouki ever meeting.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

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  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'm sure Akuma display a super durability feat in his third strike ending where he withstands deep sea pressure . here's the ending in question

    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    Gouki is an outlier along with some of the other top tiers. However, I wouldn't think too hard about the physics of Gouki being at the bottom of the ocean vs getting punched by a world warrior.

    if you put a gun to Gouki's head and pulled the trigger there's nothing really to suggest that his BODY would just tank it...especially not like how someone like Victor or Jedah or Demitri would. Dodge it? Sure. Defend it with his fighting aura? Absolutely. But Superman-like bulletproofing? No.

    Pressure at that depth is like getting shot by a bullet everywhere at once...but the physics of it was not in mind by the people that created that ending.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

    I designed SFV Ed. Your argument is invalid.

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  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited January 2015
    there's also the SF4 rival battle with Ryu where Akuma talks about transcended your humanity . suggestion that he has transcended humanity the guy is always in Satsui no Hado he's never out of it. if Akuma were to go up against Batman in hand to hand combat Akuma would murder Batman he would even need to use the Shun Goku Satsu. Batman would be at a severe disadvantage in fight against Akuma for the fact that Chi doesn't exist in any of the DC Universes.

    in fact I would say Batman would get his ass stomp by most of the SF cast in hand to hand combat ( without gadgets.) anime peak human is greater than comic book peak human. speaking of battle aura I say that Kenshiro could tank Shun Goku Satsu with his battle aura and yes Kenshiro has battle aura. battle aura is probably the reason for Akuma developing stronger attacks, because their might be fighters with battle aura in SF universe that can tank his Shun Goku Satsu ( theory).
    Post edited by Sagatryu on
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • YagamiFireYagamiFire Hobby: Resurrection Joined: Posts: 2,945
    Gouki vs Batman is a ludicrous comparison considering their two relative settings.

    Also, Gouki's view of himself is inherently flawed, especially as it applies to "transcending humanity". His road ends at Oni. It's a bad thing. Especially for a martial artist. His way is a failed one from the word Go.

    As for the rest, it's just Battle Board bleh.
    "Punks jump up to get beat down"

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  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited January 2015
    the close comparison to the SF cast since you mention fighting aura is anime characters like Kenshiro in Hokuto no Ken or Iron Fist from marvel comics. now if someone in the Hokuto no Ken verse where to walk up to Kenshiro while he was sleeping and shot him in the head then probably would kill him. I don't believe a normal joe in the SF verse could take Akuma out with gun if he was ready for it." I also believe that Akuma could curbstomp half the SF cast if he was serious with expectation top tiers like Oro.

    I also don't think real life should be compare with Street Fighter and that Street Fighter should be compare to other fictional sources that are similar to it.
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • BB_HoodyBB_Hoody Nice plane you have there. Be a Shame if something went wrong in flight and it crashed Joined: Posts: 4,894
    @Sagatyru The fuck does Batman have to do with anything??? Why is he being compared to Akuma? No shit Akuma would wreck him. Try comparing Akuma to Superman, or Wonder Woman. Also anime peak human condition> comic book peak human condition. That's because comics try to be a bit more believable. Unlike in say something like One Piece where dudes like Zoro and Sanji have the physique of the average man and were born with no abnormal abilities. Yet perform superhuman feats of strength, endurance, and durability somehow.
  • SagatryuSagatryu Joined: Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited January 2015
    we're past the Batman thing now . it's Hokuto no Ken and it's not a fight it's a comparison, compare Street Fighter to Anime like Fist of the Hokuto no Ken . Hokuto No Ken is a good anime to compare Street fighter to cause Street fighter took stuff from it. Street fighter falls under the Supernatural Martial Arts just like Hokuto No Ken. Iron Fist is another comparable character because he uses Chi.

    it might be possible that Street Fighter cast can augment their physical and mental capabilities to superhuman levels through Ki. the concept of Chi and Chi Augmentation fits well with Street fighter verse, because it can explain many of the things the characters are capable of. Street Fighter has Chi / Ki to back on to explain things the cast is capable of, unlike Zoro and Sanji who don't even have that to explain the things they do.
    Post edited by Sagatryu on
    "you may have the Ultimate Shield , but I have the Ultimate eye , and my ultimate eye can see your weakness" - King Bradley / Wrath to Greed.
  • BB_HoodyBB_Hoody Nice plane you have there. Be a Shame if something went wrong in flight and it crashed Joined: Posts: 4,894
    @Sagatyru I just want an answer to why you mentioned Batman. Where not just gonna move pass that because, it was so...stupid and random! Also your derailing the hell out of this. The focus of this is to determine wether or not Akuma's raging demon is a physical or super natural attack. I'm leaning towards very powerful physical attack.
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