The System Mechanics Thread

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  • WTF-AKUMA-HAXWTF-AKUMA-HAX DBGT non canon > maxxvatar OVA Joined: Posts: 17,879
    Shoot, forgot I just asked about this too.
    jedpossum said:
    The priority engine is if two attack and/or throw boxes are interacting on the same frames one will have priority instead of trading. Trying to use a jab to beat Chun-li's back hp if you look at the hit box it should be beatable but that only tells half the story as the priority engine says fuck that and back hp wins with out trading.
    The order is
    Lights<Mediums<Heavies<Specials<Supers<Throws
    The last part being most relevant to this question/discussion.
    1999 = "A Game with Parries isn't Street Fighter"
    2016 = "Releasing a Complete Game isn't Street Fighter"
    You wouldn't even understand if I told you.
    People will forget what you said.
    People will forget what you did.
    But, people will never forget how you made them feel.

  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    the sjc grab invulnerability isn't throughout the attack, it's at the beginning when the throw and and attack hit boxes overlap. The reason I said sjc super would beat it is because supers aren't hit invulnerable

    sjc super with chun would be beat by a full screen grab maybe but not an up close one. I believe so because a grab isn't active for the entire time it takes a super to reach full screen. You'd whiff by the time it reached you. I know this. Why? Because I have wall thrown chun out of her super from full screen. I have grabbed Ken out of his super countless times. Grabbed Q out of his super. Grabbed X out of their super. SO on and so forth. It's all simple physics but I can't prove that because I don't care to.

    You don't need Japanese explanations for all these things, it's not difficult to figure it out. I figured it out when I was like 19 years old and that was only because I didn't play the game til then. I was doing shit like this in smash bros 64 when I was like 10. I had a jp copy of it, just in case you guys try to throw more "facts" at me. Not saying I don't trust your programs ESN but I trust actual applied experience more than a number you pulled out of a controlled environment. It's not the same.

    Supers don't have any priority, their hit boxes just reach the hurt box quicker because hit boxes in 3s don't function like hitboxes in your diagrams or in ST for that matter. They don't just appear, they gradual extend outward. There's this kind of hadouken, in the energy from the palm sense, attribute to most of the attacks. A lingering hitbox of sorts. Chun back fierce being the best example of it. Even then I don't think it's ever just one way. As for the super hitboxes, those just appear. They are there immediately but hurt boxes during a super still function normally.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I really shouldn't have to explain that I understand super invulnerability doesn't last throughout the entire super. Otherwise parrying supers would be useless.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,700
    it's if two boxes intersect at the same time. not just a timing thing which is what you're describing.

    the thing is. in reality it's so extremely rare that 2 hit boxes intersect opposing hurtboxes at the exact same frame that it really barely matters at all.
    Play more.
  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544
    the sjc grab invulnerability isn't throughout the attack, it's at the beginning when the throw and and attack hit boxes overlap. The reason I said sjc super would beat it is because supers aren't hit invulnerable

    sjc super with chun would be beat by a full screen grab maybe but not an up close one. I believe so because a grab isn't active for the entire time it takes a super to reach full screen. You'd whiff by the time it reached you. I know this. Why? Because I have wall thrown chun out of her super from full screen. I have grabbed Ken out of his super countless times. Grabbed Q out of his super. Grabbed X out of their super. SO on and so forth. It's all simple physics but I can't prove that because I don't care to.

    You don't need Japanese explanations for all these things, it's not difficult to figure it out. I figured it out when I was like 19 years old and that was only because I didn't play the game til then. I was doing shit like this in smash bros 64 when I was like 10. I had a jp copy of it, just in case you guys try to throw more "facts" at me. Not saying I don't trust your programs ESN but I trust actual applied experience more than a number you pulled out of a controlled environment. It's not the same.
    .
    You are missing the whole point of the question..

    I was not questioning whether supers are throw-able or even hit-able, but why Ken got grabbed in a situation he should still have his inherent wake-up throw invulnerability frames.

    Let me put it this way if Ken had a special with the same startup as shippu that was also throwable on its first active frame it would NEVER get grabbed in this situation.
  • SesshaZLSesshaZL 春麗 豪鬼 Joined: Posts: 1,028
    Hi ESN or anybody else I suppose

    Does committing to an attack on ones wake up instantly end ones throw invulnerability?

    Playing on OE I managed to karakusa Ken out of a wake-up reversal shippu and thinking game mechanics wise did not make since to me.
    this has happened to me before on arcade board.

    was very wtf when my karakusa grabbed em, nice to know why it worked now.
    50/50 post Hyoukusen mixup is dirty!!
    Way more dangerous than outsiders perspective, "low forward super, yawn, I play better games" - WTF-AKUMA-HAX
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    the sjc grab invulnerability isn't throughout the attack, it's at the beginning when the throw and and attack hit boxes overlap. The reason I said sjc super would beat it is because supers aren't hit invulnerable

    sjc super with chun would be beat by a full screen grab maybe but not an up close one. I believe so because a grab isn't active for the entire time it takes a super to reach full screen. You'd whiff by the time it reached you. I know this. Why? Because I have wall thrown chun out of her super from full screen. I have grabbed Ken out of his super countless times. Grabbed Q out of his super. Grabbed X out of their super. SO on and so forth. It's all simple physics but I can't prove that because I don't care to.

    You don't need Japanese explanations for all these things, it's not difficult to figure it out. I figured it out when I was like 19 years old and that was only because I didn't play the game til then. I was doing shit like this in smash bros 64 when I was like 10. I had a jp copy of it, just in case you guys try to throw more "facts" at me. Not saying I don't trust your programs ESN but I trust actual applied experience more than a number you pulled out of a controlled environment. It's not the same.

    Supers don't have any priority, their hit boxes just reach the hurt box quicker because hit boxes in 3s don't function like hitboxes in your diagrams or in ST for that matter. They don't just appear, they gradual extend outward. There's this kind of hadouken, in the energy from the palm sense, attribute to most of the attacks. A lingering hitbox of sorts. Chun back fierce being the best example of it. Even then I don't think it's ever just one way. As for the super hitboxes, those just appear. They are there immediately but hurt boxes during a super still function normally.
    Man, i may be really tired, but i have no clue why you're saying all this and what does all this mean beside "throw will work if correctly timed, won't if not".
    I didn't understand first why you talked about sjc, cause it doesn't matter at all to determine if you're able or not to grab a super.

    For supers priority: who will win between gouki far hp vs jinrai when only end of both active hitboxes (no hurtboxes reachable by any)? That's how you'll determine priority, not with active hitboxes reaching hurtboxes faster than the other, where it's just a matter of timing/positionning like Tebbo said.
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Thanks for the response ESN and everyone.

    So it is related to the good old super freeze glitch huh? interesting


    As for why I asked I knew alot of supers where throw-able out of there startup (ken sa3, dud sa 3, chun sa2, Q sa1 and sa2, yang sa2, and necro sa3 all come to mind) I just thought it was strange that I could grab a reversal shippu on wake-up although I never recall grabbing a wake-up reversal rh tatsu from Gouki even though it is throw-able on start-up.


    As for the hit/block throw invulnerability thanks for confirming the length of throw invulnerability. I knew it existed but was not sure of its exact length.
    Haha, i just realized i didn't actually answered your question as i only tested regular jinrai vs throw, not wakeup jinrai :d
    Just tested this precisely, and no problem to catch a wakeup jinrai with a karakusa. So, it seems superfreeze gets rid of those throw invulnerability frames, on wakeup. Same on hitstun/blockstun recovery btw. Specials still keep inv though, hence your remark on Gouki tatsu.


    One thing about the superfreeze glitch, what i said before is probably wrong or at least may not be that obvious: i used karakusa to test this time because i haven't been able to grab Ken with regular throw at first. In fact, i found throw won't connect if.... mak is point blank range to ken (as far as i can tell, it may be due to something else), cause all throw startup frames occurs during superfreeze, one on the beginning, the other one somewhere before the end, no idea why. If mak is not that close to ken, throw will connect (works like i described in previous post). Some glitch magics there...
  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544
    Yeah it is good to know why even though realistically it should only happen if someone throws too early as karakusa would whiff if the did nothing/anything but super.

    Also come to think about it this would/could also explain how gigas can be possibly thrown out of. (assuming that it wasn't just missed timed)
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    You are missing the whole point of the question..

    I was not questioning whether supers are throw-able or even hit-able, but why Ken got grabbed in a situation he should still have his inherent wake-up throw invulnerability frames.

    Let me put it this way if Ken had a special with the same startup as shippu that was also throwable on its first active frame it would NEVER get grabbed in this situation.

    Wake up grab inv frames are no longer active if you press a button or commit to an action. Simple answer. You expect too much to be handed to you. Go play sf4. I know that's harsh but you prance around these boards asking people for answers and don't value them unless they are followed by facts and figures. 3s wasn''t made in a way that requires that. It does require some ingenuity but that's neither here or there because even then it isn't that difficult.

    The game provides you with the tools to answer the question yourself, was my point then. It's all there.
    For supers priority: who will win between gouki far hp vs jinrai when only end of both active hitboxes (no hurtboxes reachable by any)? That's how you'll determine priority, not with active hitboxes reaching hurtboxes faster than the other, where it's just a matter of timing/positionning like Tebbo said.

    But IT IS just a matter of which ones reach faster because the time that they will reach there is dependent on the positioning etc because placing a point blank normal up against a point blank super and expecting to get any differing results is just silly and, by definition, insane.

    First, let's get out of our pseudo 3s scientists clothing and realize that you'll never beat out the first hit of shippu by attacking it head on unless you meet it with a super yourself. So in order to really determine whether or not shippu has more priority and not just invulnerability frames ( I'm implying that priority is not some hard coded number but rather an abstraction of priority that we created on the perceived notion that invulnerability frames act like "a shield" from damage and then allow the move to pop out full force thus creating this "priority" we see )we are going to have to place the super's hit boxes along side the normal's hit boxes in an actual fair situation.
    Knowing this, I'll place the 2nd character at max range for shippu's second swing of the leg, this will mean that the first hit ( the invulnerable one ) whiffs. Now it whiffed and moved a bit forward and is getting ready to make the second swing. If the second character throws out a normal that is just as fast as the shippu or at least times itself so that the two attacks meet up in the middle at the same time there is no magix number in the coding that says the super will always win. It is all positioning as Tebbo was saying. And if the number both match at zero, considering there is a hurtbox available for shippu to actually be hit, they will trade. If there isn't, shippu out-prioritising the normal will be simply because that normal has a hyrtbocks within reach and sheepoo doesn't. That does not = priority. There is always going to be a "sweet spot" for any two attacks in this game to trade. Unless that super is genei jin. I think. And a normal with "less priority" only has less because it was put out there without "a shield" or is simply not being used in the appropriate situation. That's your priority. There is no priority variable in the character class coding, it's made up.

    The only reason I responded the way I did was because you felt the need to let me know that super jumps aren't Roll Cancels. I was like "wtf", I didn't even touch ggpo for like 5 years into the game, I know how it really works.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    it's if two boxes intersect at the same time. not just a timing thing which is what you're describing.

    the thing is. in reality it's so extremely rare that 2 hit boxes intersect opposing hurtboxes at the exact same frame that it really barely matters at all.

    You need SoCal 3s, bruh. That situation you described is a trade by definition. Which is not uncommon, I don't think, between two equally matched players.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,700
    lol
    that's not socal anything.

    i have been skeptical since forever of that whole thing. jedpossum made this to show me exactly.

    5IC1X.gif

    tell me where you see a trade. this is with opposing hitboxes intersecting opposing hurtboxes on the same frame.

    like i said. the reality is this rarely happens or seems at all odd. weak moves are much quicker and so they often interrupt stronger attacks before they are active.

    you can get trades in a few ways i think. like hitting the character hurtbox, not the move hurtbox at the same time. or two moves of equal strength hitting at the exact same time.

    i can't verify that this moment but from experience I feel that must be true. the only time the move strength priority part of the game comes into play is in this specific scenario.

    also i dont get trades because remy's legs are longer and beat everything ever.
    Play more.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I don't really know what you're trying to prove with that example, seeing as Sean's attack was already out. Do Q's attack one frame earlier and see what happens then.

    Maybe Sean has an even number of frames for his attack and Q has an odd number. This isn't going to provide a definitive answer right away but it'll surely point us in the right direction.

    Maybe Sean's attack staying out longer is what determines the "out-prioritising". The calculations, I'm fairly sure, aren't exactly 2 + 2 = 4, it's more like 2 + 1 = 3 unless it's 1 + 2 = 3. I hope that makes sense. Precedent, I think, is the concept here but once again I could be completely wrong. I present it as an equation because they are combining to determine a result, the two attacks are, and that is how the game registers it. You won't truly understand the game until you start to treat it as a singular entity despite there being two players. That's a program for you.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Also, Sean hits two of Q's hurtboxes while Q barely touches Sean's one. You can't undermine the importances of substance as it plays into the decisions the game makes. If I hit a meaty attack and you uppercut, the only reason I was able to hit with the meaty is because so much of my hitbox was already in your hurtbox.
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  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    ...
    The only reason I responded the way I did was because you felt the need to let me know that super jumps aren't Roll Cancels. I was like "wtf", I didn't even touch ggpo for like 5 years into the game, I know how it really works.
    The need? Come on...
    You wrote something which was wrong the way i understood it, so i tried to explain things, that's all. And then, seems you took it personally or something...

    And now, this...
    Wake up grab inv frames are no longer active if you press a button or commit to an action. Simple answer. You expect too much to be handed to you. Go play sf4.
    ...is plain wrong. Seriously, it's part of what i've said in my first answer here, even with an animated example to show it in game with throw/hitboxes...
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Wake up grab inv frames are no longer active if you press a button or commit to an action. Simple answer.
    Makoto using Karakusa vs Gouki using reversal tatsu, fireball, normals and even taunt.

    Gouki wins.

    Reversal SA1? Gouki loses.

    EDIT: ESN's a ninja...
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Makoto using Karakusa vs Gouki using reversal tatsu, fireball, normals and even taunt.

    Gouki wins.

    Reversal SA1? Gouki loses.

    EDIT: ESN's a ninja...
    are you saying reversal fireball/normals besides f+mp/taunt beat makoto karakusa?
    I understand HK tatsu not being grabbed as it, if I remember correctly, is airborne on the 1st or 2nd frame. And to address the latter, did you try not attempting to land a grab at the very last frame and instead time the grab to land on their second start up frame?

    Super flashes in Capcom have always had strange phenomena attributed to them, such as killing frames, buffering inputs, etc. That might explain why the invincibility frames wear off.

    And as for reversal, do you mean using the attack as a counter or doing the attack out of block or wake up without going to neutral? Reversal is the latter in 3s if not every capcom game.
    The need? Come on...
    You wrote something which was wrong the way i understood it, so i tried to explain things, that's all. And then, seems you took it personally or something...

    And now, this...


    ...is plain wrong. Seriously, it's part of what i've said in my first answer here, even with an animated example to show it in game with throw/hitboxes...

    the need part was brought in when you failed to give to person you were speaking to any credit. It was very condescending and the only reason I responded the way I did was because I thought there was an air of respect being thrown around in here seeing as we are all trying to accomplish the same thing. An understanding of the game's engine through the game's engine.

    As for the second part, I think maybe you're just trying too hard to defend someone that isn't being attacked but rather being provided an answer. I'll admit telling him to play sf4 is a bit harsh, no one deserves that but I wasn't wrong. He was saying Ken was grabbed out of his wake up super when, knowing that his super is grabable, his super shouldn't have been grabable due to the wake up grab invulnerability frames. I was telling him that it became grabable because he commited to an action. Wake up invulnerability comes from the fact that you don't press anything on wake up. Pressing anything, whether it be a motion, or an attack negates that invulnerability. That is all I was saying. Maybe my syntax is all mucked up.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,700
    I don't really know what you're trying to prove with that example, seeing as Sean's attack was already out. Do Q's attack one frame earlier and see what happens then.

    yeah i don't know why he did it that way. i don't know why he couldn't just do it as both attacks becoming active simultaneously. as opposed to one and then another intersecting with it. that's actually what i was hoping he would show, but he didn't. don't know why. can't be that hard to step through frames and hit buttons and calculate the 5 - 6 difference that q needs to start one frame earlier to be active on the same frame.

    but what do i know.

    not sure if that makes a difference or not. but at least that gif shows that a higher strength attack that is active will flat beat a weaker attack that intersects it (assuming hitboxes/hurtboxes line up).

    however it works it feels 'right' in game anyway.
    Play more.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    are you saying reversal fireball/normals besides f+mp/taunt beat makoto karakusa?
    I understand HK tatsu not being grabbed as it, if I remember correctly, is airborne on the 1st or 2nd frame. And to address the latter, did you try not attempting to land a grab at the very last frame and instead time the grab to land on their second start up frame?

    Super flashes in Capcom have always had strange phenomena attributed to them, such as killing frames, buffering inputs, etc. That might explain why the invincibility frames wear off.

    And as for reversal, do you mean using the attack as a counter or doing the attack out of block or wake up without going to neutral? Reversal is the latter in 3s if not every capcom game..
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Karakusa covers more frames than a standard throw, though nowhere near a demon obviously. I figured it would be easier to test for me. I did use normal throws too, same results.

    I did vary the timing up so that the Karakusa would be active AFTER Gouki could reversal. SA1 beat out Karakusa here, because the super connected before the Karakusa's 1st hit frame. The other results were the same, I even walked and dashed through the Karakusa. If what you said was true, that any action negates throw invulnerability, then plenty of wake-up option-select (or normal) parries wouldn't work.

    For the last part, I threw Gouki and waited for him to wake up. Reversal (and even a few non-reversals) fireballs with both returning the stick to neutral and still holding forward resulted in the fireball winning.

    I personally believe that the reason throws grab most supers is because the super freeze's frames count towards the wake up throw window.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I'll test this out myself as well because I don't ever recalling being hit out of a wake up karakusa with anything but an instanr air attack or uppercut, which I guess I could be considered to be one of the latter. It really doesn't sound right at all.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I'll test this out myself as well because I don't ever recalling being hit out of a wake up karakusa with anything but an instanr air attack or uppercut, which I guess I could be considered to be one of the latter. It really doesn't sound right at all.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I do certainly approve of optimizing the "meta game" but I disagree with any kind of relegation.
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  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544
    I'll test this out myself as well because I don't ever recalling being hit out of a wake up karakusa with anything but an instanr air attack or uppercut, which I guess I could be considered to be one of the latter. It really doesn't sound right at all.
    I made a vid vs dud showing it Shitty iphone quality but better then nothing

    Mak vs dud Meaty karakusa using replay feature



    Long story short karakusa grabs reversal sa3 but loses to everything else including dud doing nothing. Also the karakusa is only timed to beat reversal sa3 and to show that doing a move does not end throw invulnerability.

    Edit: long story short Dander if someone chooses and option that is fast enough to hit before the throw invulnerability ends it will beat a perfectly timed karakusa. (excluding this super freeze 'glitch')
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    Jak plays Makoto not ken btw lol.


    No offense Lenin,but I'm super confused by what you're saying too.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Dudley wasn't even standing yet. I think maybe you guys are looking for a different kind of answer. They aren't standing until they are completely standing. Yet you guys seem to want to grab them before then?

    I'm sorry I said anything. Would you mind doing normals now too? I know karakusa/grabs in general can grab the uppercut, I really shouldn't have to prove that. As for the other ones, I want to say you guys just don't know when to actually apply pressure but you know whhat? I'm scrub so fuck it. Keep on keepin' on.

    @Ryan no biggie, at least one person understood. I was just saying sjc xx super would keep you from being grabbed out of super because SJC to special or super gives grab invulnerability in the amount of sjc frames.

    as an aside, you aren't cancelling her dash into karakusa.
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  • WTF-AKUMA-HAXWTF-AKUMA-HAX DBGT non canon > maxxvatar OVA Joined: Posts: 17,879
    Gouki fireball so dope it hits people behind him. What up, Yang teleport.

    Worst decision ever by both characters there... but that happened. And it better be there as a saving grace if you wakeup fireball Makoto probably on accident. Some pull back of the hands to avoid a grab makes sense, setup that back leg karate stance. Fireball hitting so close will be on the negative frames, maybe it'll at least confuse the other player to not immediately kill you!
    1999 = "A Game with Parries isn't Street Fighter"
    2016 = "Releasing a Complete Game isn't Street Fighter"
    You wouldn't even understand if I told you.
    People will forget what you said.
    People will forget what you did.
    But, people will never forget how you made them feel.

  • WTF-AKUMA-HAXWTF-AKUMA-HAX DBGT non canon > maxxvatar OVA Joined: Posts: 17,879
    ...
    That's your priority. There is no priority variable in the character class coding, it's made up.
    ...
    super jumps aren't Roll Cancels.
    That's an argument against the priority based in examples and experience we might never hear too often. Which might make more Yun players through testing GeneiJin & "Super priority" and beating most all things, not trading. A balancing measure probably not worth talking about or gaining steam among anyone for it could be stupid to even worry about, might be to let GeneiJin keep super priority but let specials trade with those Yun Normals now with Super priority. To give a few more ways to escape than block it out, risky as shit fast normals, or walkup throw against him if he leaves an opening for those counters.

    V-ism, A Groove style, get hit = lose the activated Super also an interesting look at the risk reward of facing Genei Jin head on. Ryan's example idea once IIRC.

    My bad bringing up Roll Cancels as the example, if it got caught as part of an argument. I meant no harm in that.

    Since jed always brought it up to me in random talks, again my bad bringing him into this not being here anyway, but this is just closure. SF3 priority system hated, its not the game for him because of that as one major reason. So I tried to get more details on if that's in the game code, what is up with it? It has not been in other Capcom games code he's looked at, while another game had charge partitioning also, a cool footnote.

    Asked if it was like, M.U.G.E.N. nonsense with a "priority=value(1-9)" and every coding their characters kid puts 9, to which anyone else has to code things around it, having everyone make all their attacks the highest "priority."

    SF3:3s is surely not that abusive janky for code, but the example I got was the above two things, as Tebbo can tell you. I went to jed to help answer Tebbo's question on more direct examples of the priority system, always talked about how its in SF3 and not other games. It got a little heated in there too from misunderstandings, I'm sorry for not expecting that going into setting up the conversation, but really getting any more details and examples of the "priority system" is helpful, regardless of the bumpy road we take to get there.
    1999 = "A Game with Parries isn't Street Fighter"
    2016 = "Releasing a Complete Game isn't Street Fighter"
    You wouldn't even understand if I told you.
    People will forget what you said.
    People will forget what you did.
    But, people will never forget how you made them feel.

  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    ...
    brought in when you failed to give to person you were speaking to any credit. It was very condescending and the only reason I responded the way I did was because I thought there was an air of respect being thrown around in here seeing as we are all trying to accomplish the same thing. An understanding of the game's engine through the game's engine.

    As for the second part, I think maybe you're just trying too hard to defend someone that isn't being attacked but rather being provided an answer. I'll admit telling him to play sf4 is a bit harsh, no one deserves that but I wasn't wrong. He was saying Ken was grabbed out of his wake up super when, knowing that his super is grabable, his super shouldn't have been grabable due to the wake up grab invulnerability frames. I was telling him that it became grabable because he commited to an action. Wake up invulnerability comes from the fact that you don't press anything on wake up. Pressing anything, whether it be a motion, or an attack negates that invulnerability. That is all I was saying. Maybe my syntax is all mucked up.
    It wasn't condescending but you took it that way cause you've felt contradicted.

    Same with 2nd part of your post here: you're wrong, i said it, shown it with a link, with explanations, Jak said it/prove it with video, Telesniper said it with examples he personally tested, but you still think you're right without any other proof than "i know it". Good for us, now you're inclined to test some things yourself so we can have your accord on what's true in the game. If something is condescending throughout this discussion, it's this attitude.
    ...
    @Ryan no biggie, at least one person understood. I was just saying sjc xx super would keep you from being grabbed out of super because SJC to special or super gives grab invulnerability in the amount of sjc frames.
    That, is clearer than your initial post. I wouldn't have answered the same thing at all here...
    But, we were talking about throwing a super despite its supposed throw inv frames, but here you're adding something before the super which indeed will make the super no more throwable in the same condition (no throw activation shift) but is not relevant for the question. You can say the same with walking back a little before super, kara the super with a negative range normal when possible (mak/alex hk), etc...
    Super still benefiting of wakeup throw inv or not doesn't matter here...
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    Dudley wasn't even standing yet. I think maybe you guys are looking for a different kind of answer. They aren't standing until they are completely standing. Yet you guys seem to want to grab them before then?

    I'm sorry I said anything. Would you mind doing normals now too? I know karakusa/grabs in general can grab the uppercut, I really shouldn't have to prove that. As for the other ones, I want to say you guys just don't know when to actually apply pressure but you know whhat? I'm scrub so fuck it. Keep on keepin' on.

    as an aside, you aren't cancelling her dash into karakusa.
    I don't think anyone here wants to throw them on wake up. The point was to show that you can't be thrown for 6 frames, even when committing to an action (barring certain supers) on wake up. If a move were to hit meaty midscreen, Dudley could only win out using reversal SA3, EX uppercut, EX SSB (assuming said meaty would have only hit the areas Dudley "isn't") or Ducking (again assuming the meaty would hit high enough). ex. Makoto's meaty cr.Strong would only lose to reversal Super and EX upper, her meaty st.Jab would only be hit by reversal Super and EX upper, but Dudley could avoid it using Short and Forward Ducking, also EX SSB, but she could block/parry before it connects.

    JAK's Karakusa was meaty, if any of Makoto's normals intersected with Dudley on the same frame, most of ^ would apply.

    What does, us, not knowing when to apply pressure have anything to do with this subject anyways?

    How would dash cancelling Karakusa effect this at all? It doesn't gain any bonus properties, they are still invulnerable to throws...
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    You guys wear a lot of sandals.

    @ESN, is it condescending because you are letting me know now after 6 years that supers aren't invincible throughout the super...uhh...what?
    Besides I see no contradiction to my statement because I'm not stating anything outside of the obvious. The game works the way I said it does not because I say it does but because it does, you guys seem to be trying to find some cheat on wake up or something that isn't even going to make a difference outside of your tests here.
    I forgot I was talking to the three most out of the way players. So now I'll apologize and let you guys continue your journey from catching with the tip of a karakusa to....I don't know where because you obviously can't catch everyone with the tip of karakusa. At least not on their first activation frame or not with her first recovery frame. Especially not if they're airborne quickly. Dudley's uppercut sucks. YOU CAN BE GRABBED OUT OF IT. EASY. Sorry for "yelling".

    @telesniper, we learn things regarding the game to apply them to the game we play. That's why it matters when you apply pressure. That's why it matters that he didn't cancel the dash. If these are tests to determine something outside of the realm of an actual match, what good does it do you? I'm a 3rd strike player supplying advice from the realm that matters to 3rd strike players. Having 3 of you bombard me when I was just clarifying what I was saying, albeit rather vaguely it seems, I was doing nothing to cause a backlash.

    Karakusa's are not good meaty. That was one of the few things I learned first about her. There really is no benefit to it outside of grabbing a super and those are easy to read making it easy to set up the proper timing for it. No deep analysis required. You do it later to catch stray normals or uppercuts with the OS parry before it.

    No, they would not gain the invulnerability. If they were to block low, crouch, tap forward to parry, anything besides neutral they would not stay invulnerable to throws. Who stays neutral on wake up? What were the conditions for your wake up tests stated? I'm telling you this is all unnecessary pseudo science that "might", keyword might, never make out to the playing field. It's like practicing your batting by hitting the ball at the foul post figuring out how to make it skin the inside so that you still get the homer when you could easily aim a little closer in.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    My idea on the designers point of view when making the grab start and hit start frames?

    You can't kick a man while he's down and if you try to grab him he's in perfect position to jump real high, a squat, so no we shouldn't make them start at the same time.

    I never assumed one would be able to grab and attack from the same baseline. I'm thinking that was the assumption here. And if so, sorry for getting in your way.

    Last time I'll get in your guys' way.
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    You guys wear a lot of sandals.

    @ESN... Dudley's uppercut sucks. YOU CAN BE GRABBED OUT OF IT. EASY. Sorry for "yelling".

    @telesniper, we learn things regarding the game to apply them to the game we play. That's why it matters when you apply pressure. That's why it matters that he didn't cancel the dash. If these are tests to determine something outside of the realm of an actual match, what good does it do you? I'm a 3rd strike player supplying advice from the realm that matters to 3rd strike players. Having 3 of you bombard me when I was just clarifying what I was saying, albeit rather vaguely it seems, I was doing nothing to cause a backlash.

    Karakusa's are not good meaty. That was one of the few things I learned first about her. There really is no benefit to it outside of grabbing a super and those are easy to read making it easy to set up the proper timing for it. No deep analysis required. You do it later to catch stray normals or uppercuts with the OS parry before it.

    No, they would not gain the invulnerability. If they were to block low, crouch, tap forward to parry, anything besides neutral they would not stay invulnerable to throws. Who stays neutral on wake up? What were the conditions for your wake up tests stated? I'm telling you this is all unnecessary pseudo science that "might", keyword might, never make out to the playing field. It's like practicing your batting by hitting the ball at the foul post figuring out how to make it skin the inside so that you still get the homer when you could easily aim a little closer in.
    Sure thing..........

    EX upper can't be grabbed, what are you going on about?

    That still has NOTHING to do with whether what you say is true or not. I'm an awful player, and you're the bess, but that doesn't make me wrong in this regard. Dash Karakusa is the same as a Karakusa, and guess what? People use them OUTSIDE of dashes, believe it or not. And bombard is a ridiculous way of describing how this is playing out, sorry for disagreeing with you with what I experienced and tested, if disagreeing is "backlash", then yeah, posting something wrong will get plenty of that around here. I posted tests that would have grabbed if there was no throw invincibility, clearly there is AND it remains there even after the opponent presses a button or moves, really, if you always go to neutral before waking up you're asking to get hit meaty.

    DUH, that's what we've been saying. Meaty Karakusa will only catch certain supers, BECAUSE OF THROW INVINCIBILITY. You do it 3-6 frames later to catch normals, and that's IF they don't press a button and hit your ass before the 7th frame.

    FALSE, can't say anything but that. This thread is about learning the mechanics behind 3S, and what you're posting is detrimental to that goal. DID YOU EVEN TEST THIS YOURSELF!? It literally takes less than 10 minutes and you'll see where you made your mistake.

    Neutral, holding down back, holding back, holding forward, dashing, button mashing etc. . NOTHING changes until either the 7th frame, or a super.

    My brain hurts.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    I have been testing this for 6 years, nub.

    different base lines.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    and why would you expect me to think you can grab EX uppercut? why? that's what I meant by condescending with ESN. Are you alone ALL the time or something?
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    I have been testing this for 6 years, nub.

    different base lines.
    No, they aren't. If someone who's been playing for over 10 years told you what we've told you, what would you say?

    Sorry, but experience doesn't equal the ability sway people with fallacies.

    I'd bet you my SANDALS that if you went to Japan, they'd tell you the exact same thing.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    DO YOU EVEN LIFT?

    I see it's all there.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    No, they aren't. If someone who's been playing for over 10 years told you what we've told you, what would you say?

    Sorry, but experience doesn't equal the ability sway people with fallacies.

    I'd bet you my SANDALS that if you went to Japan, they'd tell you the exact same thing.

    what exact same thing? That you can grab someone 5 frames later than you could normal them? That's what I just said. You are stating it a shift brought upon by your keen intellect. I'm saying grab later instead of splitting the explanation into frames of superiority or whatever. At least someone new to the game would be able to understand what I'm saying as opposed to making the game even more esoteric than it already is. I don't state exceptions because things like that can go without saying. Like EX uppercut, supers not being invulnerable throughout, grabs come later than hits. You know...things that require a greater level of understanding of the game.

    If I went to Japan, I wouldn't talk about the game, bro. I'd play it.
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  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,885 mod
    damn lenin, put down to bong and drop this discussion. youre in over your head
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    damn lenin, put down to bong and drop this discussion. youre in over your head

    we should play for money. So you can finally stop acting like you're better than me at this game.
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  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 365
    and why would you expect me to think you can grab EX uppercut? why? that's what I meant by condescending with ESN. Are you alone ALL the time or something?
    It's one version of his uppercut, which you said can be grabbed, EASY, even though EX upper can't be grabbed.


    You also said you were going to do tests of your own. Do them, then come back here spouting that you meant something else, yadadadadada.
    what exact same thing? That you can grab someone 5 frames later than you could normal them? That's what I just said. You are stating it a shift brought upon by your keen intellect. I'm saying grab later instead of splitting the explanation into frames of superiority or whatever. At least someone new to the game would be able to understand what I'm saying as opposed to making the game even more esoteric than it already is. I don't state exceptions because things like that can go without saying. Like EX uppercut, supers not being invulnerable throughout, grabs come later than hits. You know...things that require a greater level of understanding of the game.

    If I went to Japan, I wouldn't talk about the game, bro. I'd play it.
    No, that MOVING DOESN'T END THE THROW INVINCIBILITY. Wow, that so hard to figure out?


    This is the mechanics thread, why wouldn't we talk about frames?

    No shit, the point was, what would you do if someone with vastly more experience than you (who seems to value such things) told you something that contradicts what you've "known" for so long?
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