The System Mechanics Thread

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  • TiredOceanTiredOcean Low-tier theory fighter Joined: Posts: 134
    edited June 2014
    I hope that this is the right place to post this but I made a thread about how to block Urien's unblockables here.
    It would be great if someone could perform some testing to see if the info is correct or not - I'd like to correct any mistakes I might have made.
    *cough*Telesniper please help *cough*
  • HelloWorldHelloWorld Joined: Posts: 23
    Was floating around a Japanese 3s site that's more than likely been referenced here in the past (http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/index.html), and upon examining its section on juggling I realized that the juggling post on the first page of this thread is a bit... imprecise. Maybe not inaccurate for most situations, but apparently not a complete description assuming the Japanese site is correct.

    Perhaps a newer post on these forums has been written since then to reflect (or refute) this? Apologies if so; I haven't seen it.


    Video that illustrates this "Window for Possible Follow-up Strike."
  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    Why does it feel like someone can tap down all day (down-parry fishing) to much more success than tapping forward?

    I know that more attacks can be parried low, but is the missed-parry recovery period higher for tapping down? For some reason I feel like if I waddle back and forward, the chances of getting a parry is far less than tapping down
    My drawing:
    Mai cheats on Ryu - "Shin Shoryuken!"

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7115525&postcount=252
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    Down and forward parry is the same window. 10 frame window and the recovery (where you can attempt a parry again) is longer. this 10 frame window gets cut off short when you don't return the stick to neutral or input the stick into another direction.
    かかってきな。
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,666
    edited July 2014
    so you're saying it's just the nature of tapping forward vs tapping down?
    like that as a player we might linger on forward every so slightly more when tapping forward as opposed to down?

    and so we might lose a frame or so more often on forward than down parries?

    down parry is always the same for your hand no matter your orientation also.
    Play more.
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    HelloWorld wrote: »
    Was floating around a Japanese 3s site that's more than likely been referenced here in the past (http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/index.html), and upon examining its section on juggling I realized that the juggling post on the first page of this thread is a bit... imprecise. Maybe not inaccurate for most situations, but apparently not a complete description assuming the Japanese site is correct.

    Ah, so THAT's where Game Restaurant went! When I wrote those posts near the beginning of this thread a billion years ago, my information came from them. I'm sure a lot more about the system was discovered since then on their Youtube videos. If anyone that knows Japanese would like to translate the new info, be my guest.
  • HelloWorldHelloWorld Joined: Posts: 23
    Jinrai wrote: »
    Ah, so THAT's where Game Restaurant went! When I wrote those posts near the beginning of this thread a billion years ago, my information came from them. I'm sure a lot more about the system was discovered since then on their Youtube videos. If anyone that knows Japanese would like to translate the new info, be my guest.

    My Japanese is pretty awful, but I do have a patchwork-like understanding of what's going on through what I've read/experimented with. I'll put together something that hopefully others can verify/authenticate/yell at for being unreadable.

  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    I finally get why Sggk works and the input. But when is a good time to do it? After throwing an enemy? Also cant they hit you with s.lp or s.mp (something that has to be parried high) or will the kara throw eat that up
    My drawing:
    Mai cheats on Ryu - "Shin Shoryuken!"

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7115525&postcount=252
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    use sggk if your opponent is using crouch tech to defend against throws
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    I think it's not that good. beats one thing, loses to several other things. yeah like pherai said it blows up crouch tech but that's the only big use for it. and there's other other solutions to crouch tech. heck you can just walk up and fish low if you expect crouch tech and blow them up without making as definite a commitment to one option.

    also I think it's a marker of 3s game knowledge posers lol. every internet guy who wants to prove he knows about 3s will always name drop SGGK or make Chun back fierce jokes. pretty lame!
  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    Isnt it good for getting out supers on the opponent? Like get within throw range and then if the normal hits, do the super? A lot of advance players I know mention that its important to learn. The only thing I dont like it is the timing of it is pretty strict and you have to execute it right everytime to uield good results.
    My drawing:
    Mai cheats on Ryu - "Shin Shoryuken!"

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7115525&postcount=252
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,666
    parry itself isn't a 'solution' in 3S. you parry something, the situation has changed but there are so many possibilities depending on character and what was parried.
    so you parry and then do close roundhouse or something (part of your sggk), oops the other guy expecting it did something and beats the roundhouse.

    so really if you just paid attention, parried, waited for parry freeze, and then did stuff in response, you would be much better off than guessing using sggk. you would see what you parried specifically and know what the options are for your opponent. so you could make a guess with as much information as possible.
    Play more.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited August 2014
    Technically you can use SGGK outside of beating crouch tech.

    Inputting SGGK for jump ins or divekicks you'll get Kara throw for empty jump ins/divekicks OR parry + normal move coming out if you parry the divekick or jump in.

    I haven't practiced it and don't use it. Gesu yarou told me he does that for jump ins sometimes and in a Kuroda + nuki commentary video they brought it up for an option dealing with empty or low-ankle-hitting divekicks. not sure how common it is (guessing not very commonly used) or how often people who might use it go for this. Some players like KO don't use techniques at all or often so...
    かかってきな。
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,666
    that's a really good way of using it. hadn't thought of that situation before, that's one where it makes a lot of sense, especially because of how tricky the spacing can be with divekicks. need to try and remember that next time i play yang/yun.
    Play more.
  • jblairjblair so this is it huh? having standards use to be standard Joined: Posts: 1,329
    Other people use it in scramble situations like if an opponent is somewhere between -1 and +1 and also in your face. It's a time to make a quick guess I suppose.
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    ha thats clever! funny cause i used to use crouch tech to defend against empty dive kicks. thats quite a bit better
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • fistoftheryustarfistoftheryustar Joined: Posts: 2,170
    Tebbo wrote: »
    parry itself isn't a 'solution' in 3S. you parry something, the situation has changed but there are so many possibilities depending on character and what was parried.
    so you parry and then do close roundhouse or something (part of your sggk), oops the other guy expecting it did something and beats the roundhouse.

    so really if you just paid attention, parried, waited for parry freeze, and then did stuff in response, you would be much better off than guessing using sggk. you would see what you parried specifically and know what the options are for your opponent. so you could make a guess with as much information as possible.

    But how much time do you really have to "wait" and see the parry freeze, realize it's a ken multi hit dragon punch and remember not to hit a button? In theory it sounds

    Are we hating on it because its pretty much guessing? I know people who throw out mix up block strings, where they know it's likely to hit if the opponent presses a button. More often than not theyre scoring free hits

    A pro player Im talking to his twitter mentioned SGGK is important for higher levels. Im surprised less people are using it. Sure its an OS and semi-cheap, but it takes time to learn the input/timing.
    My drawing:
    Mai cheats on Ryu - "Shin Shoryuken!"

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7115525&postcount=252
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    its importance is gonna be largely a matter of opinion. personally i think people who don't play chun aren't noticeably hindered without it.

    personally i always felt kind of stupid sacrificing goukis regular kara throw range to do sggk with mk. i would use jiro demon sggk but its very difficult execution
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,666
    Not hating on it, just you have better options usually.
    It's pretty beast with chun though, definitely. like pherai is saying i think outside of chun it becomes less useful/impactful.

    as for parry freeze, you have plenty of time to see the freeze and react.
    it's equivalent to seeing some of the overhead normals in the game.
    Play more.
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    It has uses but I think how important it is is overstated. And you have to realize you are giving up other opportunities if you commit to it. Remember all you get is throw if they do nothing. You only get super if they wakeup with crouch tech or mashing low buttons.
  • Hol HorseHol Horse a.k.a. Fugo ~ イタリアの強大なユリアン Joined: Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited August 2014
    well sggk also works with high parry input. If you feel you HAVE to guess a parry and you are in range for the kara throw, you should sggk it anyway.
    ^
    this is theory fighting, my system memory crashes when I try to implement that in real games
    gooby plz
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,216
    Hol Horse wrote: »
    well sggk also works with high parry input. If you feel you HAVE to guess a parry and you are in range for the kara throw, you should sggk it anyway.
    ^
    this is theory fighting, my system memory crashes when I try to implement that in real games

    for that one, think makoto or charge characters
    8tROOXi.png
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    Hol Horse wrote: »
    well sggk also works with high parry input. If you feel you HAVE to guess a parry and you are in range for the kara throw, you should sggk it anyway.
    ^
    this is theory fighting, my system memory crashes when I try to implement that in real games

    yeah I was thinking of something more specific than what was actually written I guess. I read SGGK but thought "SGGK w/low parry as an oki attack." obviously that wasn't said outright so my mistake.

    but yeah I still think SGGK is this weird tidbit of game knowledge that has found it's way to a lot of people but they don't know how it works or what beats it. like the original post asked "should I use it after I throw someone?" and I think the answer is "maybe, but there's probably better stuff to do."
  • caliagent#3caliagent#3 Caliagent Bobblehead Joined: Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Jinrai wrote: »

    Ah, so THAT's where Game Restaurant went! When I wrote those posts near the beginning of this thread a billion years ago, my information came from them. I'm sure a lot more about the system was discovered since then on their Youtube videos. If anyone that knows Japanese would like to translate the new info, be my guest.

    Where the hell have you been!? Are you still on XBL?

    Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.
    Footsies guide: www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbpXplP_WFE
  • HarmoNazHarmoNaz SBO5 Team UK Joined: Posts: 1,395
    SGGK is sick. You force a 50/50 in a situation where people usually dont do anything apart from blocking or teching throws.
    SF4 = scrub fighter 4, jab fighter 4, turtle fighter 4, mash fighter 4, down back fighter 4, shite fucker 4. To think a SUPER version is on its way... :crybaby: EDIT - Stop living in a cave - ULTRA version on the way. EDIT - Its dying. 3s standing strong(er)
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Where the hell have you been!? Are you still on XBL?
    I retired years ago; recently came back. I'm interested in getting back on the 3S horse, but I'm wary about playing online in a game with parries.
  • MarbleMarble エバラ HUGOOO Joined: Posts: 321
    How do you get Poison to come on screen when doing Hugo's taunt in Online Edition? Obviously start just pauses the game.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    Up + taunt
    かかってきな。
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,216
    Sanchez!
    8tROOXi.png
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    Perhaps someone can attach a video of the meters that have to do with juggling. It's a lot easier to understand that way I think.
  • HelloWorldHelloWorld Joined: Posts: 23
    ryan. wrote: »
    Perhaps someone can attach a video of the meters that have to do with juggling. It's a lot easier to understand that way I think.



    Yeah, the writing is dense; apologies for that. I posted this above; it's the video that accompanies the explanation on the site. The relevant mechanisms are illustrated below the 2P health bar: The number to the gauge's left is Reduction Value while the green, draining material in the gauge is the Pursuit Time for that value.

    First example is pretty standard. Yun starts the juggle with EX-nishou (two hits: RV+1 and RV+2 respectively; RV is now 3 and PT ticks down from 81 frames), then just the second hit of another EX-nishou (RV+2; RV is now 5 and PT ticks down from 41 frames), and finally both hits of yet another EX-nishou that just barely connects before the previous PT drains out (RV+1, RV+2; RV is now 8 and PT is a mere 5 frames).

    The second example is more interesting. Q hits an airborne Ken with close st.Jab (RV+1) xx SA2 (RV+1, then RV+2). The Jab starts the juggle and, like most grounded normals, causes Air-Reset; however, the Jab is also one of two rare grounded normals in Q's moveset that isn't RV+15. So, because RV is only 1 after the Jab (and thus PT draining out to end the juggle is not an issue because it's like 120 frames) and SA2 starts up in 2 frames (fast enough to combo off the Jab's hitstun), the whole thing is one combo with the air-reset state caused by the jab immediately set to air-reeling again by the SA before Ken can flip out of hitstun (like he does when hit by most normals in the air).
    RV becomes 4 after the whole thing and PT is 61 frames. As illustrated in the video, Q can't connect with the attempted followup st.Fierce because PT just barely runs out.

    To further explore hypotheticals with the mechanics: The above combo doesn't work with any other normal Q has. Almost all of Q's other normals are RV+15, so hitting an airborne opponent with them renders comboing with this super impossible (SA2 is not 1-frame startup and thus cannot connect fast enough to combo when RV is 15), and only other one that isn't RV+15 (b+Strong, RV+1) isn't cancellable and recovers too slowly for him to combo into super on an air-reset target.
    However, with the two non-RV15 normals it's possible to still juggle with SA2 (just can't combo with it) after the airborne hit IF you can land the super. E.g. if you do close st.Jab earlier and link the SA2 instead of cancelling, or if you use the upper end of b+Strong when the opponent is at around max jump height and then crank the super out so it hits the air-reset opponent just before he lands on the ground. Note that in this scenario it's possible to air-parry the SA2 if the parry is inputted properly, but if the super hits the followup st.Fierce after the SA2 will STILL whiff because RV is unchanged from before. Even though the normal didn't combo into SA2, the juggle counter values are the same.

    Eh, maybe it still reads like rambling nonsense. The example with Q is a bit too quirky to be very insightful; probably easier to see the mechanics with a character like Gouki, who uses them a lot in many of his actual juggles.
  • D.R.E.D.R.E. One. Little. Voice. Joined: Posts: 1,273
    Scrubby question incoming..but when exactly do you tap down for Quick Rise? I don't get to play much third strike on my own for practice and when I play at a friends house I can never get the hang of it..mashing it doesn't work apparently..
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,422
    Double tap down when you land on the floor.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,216
    D.R.E. wrote: »
    Scrubby question incoming..but when exactly do you tap down for Quick Rise? I don't get to play much third strike on my own for practice and when I play at a friends house I can never get the hang of it..mashing it doesn't work apparently..

    what the? Mashing does work
    8tROOXi.png
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    a few months ago we talked about characters falling out of Chun SA2. did anyone ever figure out why this happens? I've only ever seen it with Chun confirming back fierce on a crouching Makoto. is that the only situation it happens or are there others?

    can't remember where it was posted now.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,216
    crouching strongs
    8tROOXi.png
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    at first I thought yeah it's just a weird counterpoke thing. like you catch the tip of Mak low strong with back fierce and maybe the distance is too far or something? but yesterday I caught someone guessing low with back fierce, this was point blank on top of them, and Mak still fell out of Houyoku after a few hits.

    this was on arcade so it definitely happens in all versions of the game.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,216
    Sounds like maybe you linked the back fierce. You can usually see the skip on screen when you hit one of the cancels that's going to drop them into block. So like maybe it's on a receding frame. I remember mentioning that before in this thread. The 3s chars aren't like the chars in other games. They breath and their breath is made apparent by a shift in their hurt boxes and push boxes.
    8tROOXi.png
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    ah yeah that's definitely a possibility I think. it would explain why sometimes she falls out and sometimes she doesn't. maybe in her crouching breathing pattern her hurtbox shifts in just so slightly a way that it'll sometimes drop.

    I wanna try this with the hurtboxes visible! time to go investigate FBA-RR and see if I can figure anything out.
  • MarbleMarble エバラ HUGOOO Joined: Posts: 321
    This happens to more characters than just Mak. It happened to me on arcade when I was playing Ken (Though I can't remember the specific conditions). Tokido told me it can happen against all the shotos. No idea why either, though.
  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544
    It happens the most on Mak, the twins, and Elena. Seems to be something related to their crouching hurt reel/box causing the last hits of the first wave to miss.

    B.fp only, mid-screen only, and you can prevent it from happening by doing b.fpxfbxxsa2 mid screen.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited September 2014
    Hakkei into houyoku also doesn't work consistently on Sean. I've never experienced it vs the twins or Elena.
    かかってきな。
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    good info everyone!

    just a heads up in case anyone was curious - Makoto's hurtboxes don't seem to move. Isotopez checked today. obviously some characters do (breathing animation) but whether standing or crouching Makoto's boxes don't move at all.
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    is there something similar going on with the twins? its weird to me that makoto and the twins seem to be culprits here and are also the characters that you can combo RH x ducking upper on them when they are standing.
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited September 2014
    I fell out of lance's super the other day while i was playing ken. That was the first time i've ever seen it happen to ken. Too bad I wasn't blocking

    Chun, oro, and ibuki also don't seem to breath. Everyone else's hitboxes move around.

    It also seems that the breathing animations don't have an effect on where your hitboxes are height-wise after you get hit i.e. breathing only affects where on your body you get hit (or don't get hit).
    Post edited by isotopez on
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    I personally don't late cancel hakkei vs a lot of characters anymore. Not worth the small risk
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,666
    isotopez wrote: »
    I fell out of lance's super the other day while i was playing ken. That was the first time i've ever seen it happen to ken. Too bad I wasn't blocking

    Chun, oro, and ibuki also don't seem to breath. Everyone else's hitboxes move around.

    It also seems that the breathing animations don't have an effect on where your hitboxes are height-wise after you get hit i.e. breathing only affects where on your body you get hit (or don't get hit).

    I can't imagine it would. Once a character is hit they're going to go into whatever appropriate hit animation.

    unless part of sa2 whiffed just barely on the first possible hit meaning chun's relative location when starting to hit would be different (since she moves forward) which might cause something odd as she continues.

    Only reasonable way to explain it. Where their hurtboxes are relative to her hitboxes and at what point causes them to drop out from whatever knockback there is vs her own movement during the super.
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,216
    Considering these guys thought of everything, you think maybe the way the clothes is "hiding" the characters body, in tune with the lore more rather than some arbitrary system design ( none of which exists in 3s ), you think...you know what? Nevermind.
    8tROOXi.png
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,666
    you aren't saying anything.
    of course theres a 'system design'. stamina, super meter, super, special, normal, ex, stun, parry, uoh, throw, jump, dash, etc.
    that's system design. very basic decisions about what playing the game even means. what's the point, how do you accomplish it, how do you interact with it.

    maybe what you mean is compared to some other games it is very open ended about how these elements are actually used. which i would agree with. compared to some characters in arc system works games which often have character unique meters and the like as opposed to a shared pool of options which have different values to different characters at different times.
    Play more.
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