The System Mechanics Thread

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  • fatbearfatbear Hebrew Hammer Joined: Posts: 1,021
    What is the frame window to cancel/super-cancel out of moves into super/specials?

    What is the frame window for chaining in target chains and when can you press the next button?

    I get the feeling both of these properties are dependent on the specific moves. All I know is I keep accidently doing 2 jabs with chun li when I double tap... You can definitely input the next move in a chain before the previous one hits.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    If we go into specific cases, let's compare chun's low forward x super to ken's low forward super .

    Stats: start-up|active|recovery
    chun-li: 6|2|14
    ken: 6|5|17

    I want to know what is the window to cancel into a super/special.

    Oh and what are the effects of being granted (or not) a tripguard (how long is the pause when you do not have it) ?

    What is the maximal time between partitions of a charge to be still counted as a charge ?

    Is the parry frame windows universal or can it be character specific ?
    If you partitionned (way) more than 42 frames total does it still count as a full charge ?
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    There is no data available on cancel windows or tripguard. Clearly, some moves have larger cancel windows than others.

    Parry frame windows are universal. What isn't universal is whether the opponent moves backwards, forwards, or neither during parrystun.

    A partitioned charge will work as long as 1) you've spent at least 42 frames total in the charge position and 2) you don't attempt another partition after you've reached 42 frames of charging.

    You're allowed to leave the charge position for up to 10 frames before losing the charge. If you've charged less than 42 frames total, you can return to the charge position and keep your charge. If you go past 42 frames, you'll lose your charge 10 frames after you leave the charge position no matter what.

    Example:

    With Urien, hold down for half a second (no longer). Dash and bring the stick back to down as soon as you can. Hold down a little longer after you've recovered from the dash, then press up+P. You'll get a headbutt.

    Now try holding down for 5 seconds. Dash and bring the stick back to down as soon as you can. After you've recovered from the dash, press up+P. There won't be any headbutt because you've charged longer than 42 frames before dashing.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Hey thanks, that's very well answered.
  • FlareFlare Joined: Posts: 274
    can an opponent be thrown (normal throw [lp+lk], command grab, super art throw) on their first wakeup frame? Since normal throws and many command throws only have one hit frame, the timing may be too strict to do consistently. However, if done meaty and with perfect timing, command throws and throw supers may be inescapable for some characters.

    For instance, Makoto knocks Ryu down with down+hp. Ryu does not tech roll. Makoto then walks up and does kara karakusa (which supposedly has more than one hit frame). Unless, Ryu has SA II (his only one frame start up move) stocked and executes a reversal on wakeup, he will be grabbed.

    This may be a poor example because karakusa can tech normal throws, so what about
    Akuma's Shun Goku Sastu or Hugo's command throws?
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    There is a small window where the opponent cannot be thrown after waking up. I don't know how many frames it is, but it's probably around 3-5.

    In other words, you can always hold up on wakeup to escape a ground throw.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    JinraiPVC wrote:
    There is a small window where the opponent cannot be thrown after waking up. I don't know how many frames it is, but it's probably around 3-5.

    In other words, you can always hold up on wakeup to escape a ground throw.

    But, can you be thrown during pre-jump frames? If not, then that would explain why you can't throw someone who holds up. The first frame is pre-jump, and can't be thrown. Right?

    I know you can't throw superjump pre-jump, but I dunno about normal pre-jump.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    So regarding the charge, if I want to throw tackles while overwriting charges ([B.42f],F,[B.9f],HK) I cannot go over 10 frames of other actions before releasing the special move ?
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    Best Kind Boxer: I'm not entirely sure. The fact that you can't jump out of a point-blank Raging Demon implies that you can be thrown out of normal pre-jump, but the Demon can't grab you if you're hit out of the air and hold up as you land.

    Juchel.Zero: That's right. You'll have already charged the second tackle for 9 frames before the first one even comes out.
  • LiSyaoranLiSyaoran Go For Broke! Joined: Posts: 1,442
    Good stuff Jinrai.
    But are you 100% sure about throws being 2 frames, I could of swore they came out in 3 frames
    BF: Olivia, Watson
    SSF4: Seth, Abel
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    JinraiPVC wrote:
    Best Kind Boxer: I'm not entirely sure. The fact that you can't jump out of a point-blank Raging Demon implies that you can be thrown out of normal pre-jump, but the Demon can't grab you if you're hit out of the air and hold up as you land.

    Yeah, that's true. But you could look at it another way. If there is indeed a "no-throw" window similar to other SF games, you should be able to check it out?

    Say, maybe, have Akuma do raging demon on someone as the get up, or after hitting them out of the air (any meaty demon setup) Now, if there is a no-throw window, should say, I dunno, Chun be able to do wake-up d.LP to hit him out of it during this no-throw window?

    edit: although, who knows, maybe it's like CFJ and the window is cancel when you attack, I dunno lol
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    LiSyaoran: Throws have 2 frames of startup, which means you're grabbed on the 3rd frame. Anything that says 3 frames of startup is Dreamcast data, which adds one frame of startup to all moves.
  • RoskiRoski The Triad Joined: Posts: 1,949
    I'm not sure about waking up, but characters can be thrown during prejump frames.

    In training mode, set the dummy to jump (which I assume is the equivalent to just "holding up"). It's tricky timing, but the dummy can be normal thrown, and command thrown.
  • LiSyaoranLiSyaoran Go For Broke! Joined: Posts: 1,442
    JinraiPVC wrote:
    LiSyaoran: Throws have 2 frames of startup, which means you're grabbed on the 3rd frame. Anything that says 3 frames of startup is Dreamcast data, which adds one frame of startup to all moves.
    I understand this. But if something actually hits on the 3rd frame, would that still indicate that its a 3 framer. Attacks that have a 3 frame start up hit on the third frame.
    Like Ibukis C.Sht to C.Jab link. C.Sht has a +3 frame advantage, and C.Jab has a 3 frame startup. It hits on the third frame allowing this link to be possible.
    BF: Olivia, Watson
    SSF4: Seth, Abel
    3s: Yang, Alex, Gouki
    GMotW: Terry, Grant
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    Well, I guess I'm not sure then. The frame data site I go to says that her throw has 2 frames of startup and 1 "active" frame. It also says exactly what you're saying about her low Short and low Jab.
  • LiSyaoranLiSyaoran Go For Broke! Joined: Posts: 1,442
    I got another question, and seriously, how meny frames does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop???
    BF: Olivia, Watson
    SSF4: Seth, Abel
    3s: Yang, Alex, Gouki
    GMotW: Terry, Grant
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Depends on the strength of your lick, and how many you can link together
  • MertMert Yaouchh Seafood Soup Joined: Posts: 377
    throws have a 3 frame start up. do ken's crouching mk xx shippu and parry the mk. ken cannot be thrown, but do any move with a 2 frame start up (such as Ryu's EX srk or Hugo's moonsault press) and ken will be hit/thrown before the shippu is activated.
    Let's get real. The only reason I even go on SRK anymore is for the SF2CE thread. True story.
  • LiSyaoranLiSyaoran Go For Broke! Joined: Posts: 1,442
    Mert wrote:
    throws have a 3 frame start up. do ken's crouching mk xx shippu and parry the mk. ken cannot be thrown, but do any move with a 2 frame start up (such as Ryu's EX srk or Hugo's moonsault press) and ken will be hit/thrown before the shippu is activated.
    Thats what I thought
    BF: Olivia, Watson
    SSF4: Seth, Abel
    3s: Yang, Alex, Gouki
    GMotW: Terry, Grant
  • CYBORG COPCYBORG COP CYBER COP Joined: Posts: 434
    It depends on what you mean when you say 2-frame startup. Does this mean that the attack hits on the 2nd frame? I think the convention is that the attack has 2 frames BEFORE it hits, then it hits on the 3rd frame. I remember reading in the CFJ guide that Zangief's SPD has 0 frames of startup (instant). It wouldn't make sense if the attack hit on the 0th frame. Obviously, it has 0 frames before it actually hits on the 1st frame. So let's stick with that convention. So it stands that normal throws have 2 frames of startup and hit on the 3rd frame.

    And sorry I haven't updated in a while, but I WILL get to it.
  • LiSyaoranLiSyaoran Go For Broke! Joined: Posts: 1,442
    Most if not all of the frame data that I have looked at have there frame data to mean that if its a 8 framer, it hits on the 8th frame.... and the same for all frame data
    BF: Olivia, Watson
    SSF4: Seth, Abel
    3s: Yang, Alex, Gouki
    GMotW: Terry, Grant
  • blk_brothablk_brotha Veteran Gamer of FGs and RPGs Joined: Posts: 936
    Not tryin to jump off the subject about the mechanics. I would like to get to know the frame data in general and where I could find it. I read through this whole post and I want to get involved in it also.

    Question about the parry system, how many frames does it take to input a red parry? and how to know when you can do it when the opponets is attacking you with multi-hit specails, links and projectiles?
    I make moves like chess... CHECKMATE!
  • MuskauMuskau The Patriots Joined: Posts: 1,033
    Go to Training Mode, set Yun to jump in the corner, have Necro do Slam Dance(SA2) timed to catch Yun as he lands from his jump, easy eh? Now hit Yun with JP Spin fist, reset with jab, and try to catch Yun with the Slam Dance the same way, with Yun still set to jump. I haven't been able to catch Yun with Slam Dance this way, and I've tried all different types of timings. Anyone can explain this?
    When this site started, some six years ago, if you made some dumb "hi i'm new" thread, your ass was grass. Much like high school, you learned to watch what you say, and to back it up if necessary. In the end, it made you a better person. Guess that aspect of SRK is lost forever. - Mr Punkus '06
  • LiSyaoranLiSyaoran Go For Broke! Joined: Posts: 1,442
    Muskau wrote:
    Go to Training Mode, set Yun to jump in the corner, have Necro do Slam Dance(SA2) timed to catch Yun as he lands from his jump, easy eh? Now hit Yun with JP Spin fist, reset with jab, and try to catch Yun with the Slam Dance the same way, with Yun still set to jump. I haven't been able to catch Yun with Slam Dance this way, and I've tried all different types of timings. Anyone can explain this?
    The recovery from falling isn't active in a reset.
    BF: Olivia, Watson
    SSF4: Seth, Abel
    3s: Yang, Alex, Gouki
    GMotW: Terry, Grant
  • GaijinblazeGaijinblaze fingerlicans Joined: Posts: 2,506
    Muskau wrote:
    Go to Training Mode, set Yun to jump in the corner, have Necro do Slam Dance(SA2) timed to catch Yun as he lands from his jump, easy eh? Now hit Yun with JP Spin fist, reset with jab, and try to catch Yun with the Slam Dance the same way, with Yun still set to jump. I haven't been able to catch Yun with Slam Dance this way, and I've tried all different types of timings. Anyone can explain this?
    This was my take on it in an Alex thread after someone asked if you could reset->hyperbomb:
    If you're asking if that's inescapable, no it's not. You can't grab people out of prejump frames, and although landing from a normal jump yields some vulnerability, landing after a reset doesn't.
    I assume that holding up after being reset makes you immune from all grabs, including gigas. Anyone ever tried it with gigas specifically? Although Jinrai said that point blank demon beats a jump, I guess if you didn't press up before it hit, you therefore weren't in prejump when you were grabbed by it. Same goes for gigas; because it comes out so fast, if you're not already in prejump when it starts, you're getting grabbed.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    If you hold up after being reset, you aren't vulnerable to throws because immediately upon waking you enter your prejump frames; it's like waking up regularly, where if you hold up while waking you can't be thrown. The reason you can be grabbed upon landing from a jump is that you CAN be thrown during your postjump frames and while being on the ground, so when you do an antiair slam dance or gigas or c&db on someone who's still holding up to jump again, you aren't throwing them during their prejump frames but rather during their postjump frames.
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  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    On a similar subject; If I'm standing and my opponents jumps in with an attack, I block it and try to throw. Assuming I'm throwing as soon as possible, should they be able to jump out of the throw, or would they be forced to tech. it?

    The only frame data I have does not list blocked advantage for jumpins at all :(
  • Yuk_FaiYuk_Fai Unregistered User Joined: Posts: 246
    It's because it's context sensitive... for example, Dudley's j.RH can hit you really shallowly (on the top of your head), or deeply (on the knees). The block stun lasts the same amount, but the Dudley takes more time to land if you hit higher up. If he hits you deeply, then you probly won't be able to grab them before they can do something else.

    In addition, some jump-ins might push you too far back for you to grab them. In which case, you'll whiff the throw and be left open.

    What I'm trying to say is... jump in attacks can lead to different situations, depending on lots of factors. If you're blocking a jump in, watch for tick throws and block for the most part. If you know they like to do certain attack strings, look for vulnerable spots in it and reversal them (eg. you block c.lk c.lk; reversal w/ mp or hp srk before the c.mk comes out).
  • blk_brothablk_brotha Veteran Gamer of FGs and RPGs Joined: Posts: 936
    what is the trick to red parrying?
    I make moves like chess... CHECKMATE!
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    ^ There's no trick, just parry the next attack after blocking something. If you were in blockstun (and performed the parry correctly), voila! Red Parry.

    "Red parry windows for all moves: 3 for normal moves, 2 for specials/supers."
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    The tiny window in itself is the "trick."
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    I'm just going to repost this, mainly for personal ease of use.

    Here are the damage numbers on Q's jumping fierce, close standing forward, SAII, fierce dash punch.

    Hugo: 86; with 1 taunt - 80; 2 taunts - 74; 3 taunts - 69; 4 taunts - 63
    Q:---- 93; with 1 taunt - 76; 2 taunts - 65; 3 taunts - 54
    Alex: 93
    Urien: 93
    Ken: 99
    Ryu: 99
    Dudley: 99
    Makoto: 99
    Sean: 101
    Elena: 102
    Oro: 102
    Chun: 102
    Necro: 106
    Remy: 106
    Twelve: 107
    Yun: 111
    Yang: 111
    Ibuki: 113
    Akuma: 120


    I also ranked the characters from least damage taken to most damage taken.

    Regular (no taunts):
    Hugo: .843
    Q/Alex/Urien: .912
    Ken/Ryu/Dudley/Makoto: .961
    Sean: .990
    Elena/Oro/Chun: 1.000
    Necro/Remy: 1.039
    Twelve: 1.049
    Yun/Yang: 1.088
    Ibuki: 1.108
    Akuma: 1.176

    When Q and Hugo taunt:
    Q: ----.745; 2 taunts - .637; 3 taunts - .529
    Hugo: .784; 2 taunts - .725; 3 taunts - .676; 4 taunts - .618
    Alex/Urien: .912
    Ken/Ryu/Dudley/Makoto: .961
    Sean: .990
    Elena/Oro/Chun: 1.000
    Necro/Remy: 1.039
    Twelve: 1.049
    Yun/Yang: 1.088
    Ibuki:1.108
    Akuma: 1.176
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  • ni-tenni-ten Muscleheads?Hate em! Joined: Posts: 62
    I got a question on tripguarding.
    I think i read somewhere that when someone in 3s jumps at you with an
    attack let say a j.rh he is vulnerable on landing for atleast 1 frame.
    During this one(?) frame i can catch him with i.e. cr.forward.
    Whats with an empty jump towards me and i let him land on a cr.forward?
    Is that 100% safe for the other guy?
  • blk_brothablk_brotha Veteran Gamer of FGs and RPGs Joined: Posts: 936
    ni-ten wrote:
    I got a question on tripguarding.
    I think i read somewhere that when someone in 3s jumps at you with an
    attack let say a j.rh he is vulnerable on landing for atleast 1 frame.
    During this one(?) frame i can catch him with i.e. cr.forward.
    Whats with an empty jump towards me and i let him land on a cr.forward?
    Is that 100% safe for the other guy?

    I can answer those questions. In all streetfighter games if your opponet does a jump rh. or any jump attack, and it misses you can land cr. forward because their low/trip guard is gone. that goes along w/ parrying a jump attack. if they jump w/ nothing they can block, parry, or even kara throw through your low attacks. just be careful during one of those situations.
    To me? I rater perfer to parry their jump attacks then use cr. forward XX SA and if they jump with nothing i'll input throw command just incase they try to throw me. you just have to be really vigilant.
    I make moves like chess... CHECKMATE!
  • iMBaiMBa Joined: Posts: 138
    What does negative edge mean?
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    Releasing a button counts as an input. Pick Ryu in any game. Hold a punch button, do the QCF motion, then let go of the button. He'll do a Hadouken.

    This is negative edge.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Does any character have normals with airborne frames? What I mean by this is moves like Hugo's cr.fierce/cr.roundhouse...and when do they become airborne? What I'm trying to get at is if the first few frames would be considered airborne and you kara cancel out of them wouldn't it be untechable similar to superjump cancelled command throws?
  • iMBaiMBa Joined: Posts: 138
    JinraiPVC wrote:
    Releasing a button counts as an input. Pick Ryu in any game. Hold a punch button, do the QCF motion, then let go of the button. He'll do a Hadouken.

    This is negative edge.

    And how is this implemented to be useful?
  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Yes, some characters have standing normals with unthrowable air frames. Elena, Chun, Yun/Yang, Hugo, Ibuki, Oro, Q, and Sean all have moves like that. For most, if not all, of those, though, the air frames only start after the period for kara canceling ends, meaning they won't make you invincible to throws.

    Negative edge isn't as useful in Third Strike as it is in games like Super Turbo, but it's still useful. It makes each button press essentially two inputs, the in-press and the out-...go, which is cool for any special/super move (since negative edge only works in special/super moves, not for normal moves). It isn't really useful by itself, meaning unlike in ST where Honda and Hawk explicitly use negative edge to option select their command throws, in Third Strike it's just a thing that makes it easier to do specials and supers. When you hit a button, just make sure you tap it instead of holding it so that you get both inputs, and you'll be making the best use of negative edge you can in this game.
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  • blk_brothablk_brotha Veteran Gamer of FGs and RPGs Joined: Posts: 936
    about the frame data? what's the site for character frame data? and how can I deciper it? from low forwards and jabs etc. thank you.
    I make moves like chess... CHECKMATE!
  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    With shotos, I get thrown out of UOH > backdash more often than I like, though I'm lazy and don't normally do the UOH as a meaty. So the question is, can you be thrown out of backdash or am I just being thrown while entering the backdash command?
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Some characters can be thrown out of a dash, yeah. The only characters who can't be thrown out of a back or forward dash are those whose dashes involve jumps with a little airtime , and since you can't be ground-thrown while in the air, those dashes are invulnerable to throws during that time. Shotos stay on the ground the whole time during both their forward and back dashes, so yeah, they can be thrown. Characters like Ibuki, who sorta does a little minijump back for her back dash, can't be thrown because they're in the air.
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  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    Speaking of airtime, certain characters stay on the ground when they tech a throw while others are considered airborne. The most common way this has an effect on a match is when you tech Urien's throw, thrusting you into an Aegis. Makoto will be able to block instantly, while Oro will be hit out of the air and get knocked down. I haven't tested whether he's allowed to air parry.
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,675 admin
    Flare wrote:
    how does the judgment system work?

    good luck on that one!

    Basic rule is : chun li wins :looney: :sweat:
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,339
    If Hugo does the SA1 super, at the same time the opponent does a jump (up/up+?), will it always whiff? Does it whiff against an opponent's jump-start-up? That seems to be the only escape, even though many of my low LK's should've connected.

    What about super jumps?

    Same with normal throws, Alex's SA1 and such as well.
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  • GaijinblazeGaijinblaze fingerlicans Joined: Posts: 2,506
    I'm pretty sure that judgment ranks the two characters based on their letter grades. The player with the higher grade is the one that wins. That may also explain why Chun frequently wins through judgment; I notice that I get higher grades with her than I do with other characters.

    This may be all wrong though. Either way, it does matter since Evo now uses judgment to determine the winner in a draw.
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  • Mikee_ShowbizMikee_Showbiz Joined: Posts: 370
    I've always thought combo 'potential' comes into it too - higher grades going to the likes of Sean and Chun-Li than the likes of Yun and Ibuki. But that's just idle speculation... does anyone actually know?
    This is living.
  • escobuuescobuu Joined: Posts: 54
    With Ryu, close fierce, rh joudan doesn't combo, but if done while the opponent is entering stun (stun bar maxed during combo), it does combo. Why is this?
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,339
    I noticed in Training Mode that the damage varies sometimes. Ryu vs Ryu, standing HK for example sometimes did 19 or 20 damage points, for about 5-6 tries, then I did a bunch of other stuff, did standing HK again and it was doing 15-16 points of damage. Same with standing MP, HP, ... goes for all moves, I guess.

    I'd like an answer to my question three posts above... Will throws catch you on your jump start-up?
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701
    Damage is scaled depending on how much life the opponent has. When the opponent is low on life, their defense gets boosted and your moves will do less damage.

    No, throws will not catch you on your jump startup. Certain super throws at close range like Hugo's Gigas and Akuma's Demon will only catch you if you weren't already holding up before the super freeze.

    escobuu: When you stun an opponent, his/her hitstun is lengthened by exactly 1 frame. That's the frame Ryu needs to get the combo.
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