The System Mechanics Thread

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  • Hol HorseHol Horse a.k.a. Fugo ~ イタリアの強大なユリアン Joined: Posts: 2,093 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited August 2014
    well sggk also works with high parry input. If you feel you HAVE to guess a parry and you are in range for the kara throw, you should sggk it anyway.
    ^
    this is theory fighting, my system memory crashes when I try to implement that in real games
    gooby plz
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Hol Horse wrote: »
    well sggk also works with high parry input. If you feel you HAVE to guess a parry and you are in range for the kara throw, you should sggk it anyway.
    ^
    this is theory fighting, my system memory crashes when I try to implement that in real games

    for that one, think makoto or charge characters
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  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    Hol Horse wrote: »
    well sggk also works with high parry input. If you feel you HAVE to guess a parry and you are in range for the kara throw, you should sggk it anyway.
    ^
    this is theory fighting, my system memory crashes when I try to implement that in real games

    yeah I was thinking of something more specific than what was actually written I guess. I read SGGK but thought "SGGK w/low parry as an oki attack." obviously that wasn't said outright so my mistake.

    but yeah I still think SGGK is this weird tidbit of game knowledge that has found it's way to a lot of people but they don't know how it works or what beats it. like the original post asked "should I use it after I throw someone?" and I think the answer is "maybe, but there's probably better stuff to do."
  • caliagent#3caliagent#3 Caliagent Bobblehead Joined: Posts: 4,187 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Jinrai wrote: »

    Ah, so THAT's where Game Restaurant went! When I wrote those posts near the beginning of this thread a billion years ago, my information came from them. I'm sure a lot more about the system was discovered since then on their Youtube videos. If anyone that knows Japanese would like to translate the new info, be my guest.

    Where the hell have you been!? Are you still on XBL?

    Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.
    Footsies guide: www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbpXplP_WFE
  • HarmoNazHarmoNaz SBO5 Team UK Joined: Posts: 1,396
    SGGK is sick. You force a 50/50 in a situation where people usually dont do anything apart from blocking or teching throws.
    SF4 = scrub fighter 4, jab fighter 4, turtle fighter 4, mash fighter 4, down back fighter 4, shite fucker 4. To think a SUPER version is on its way... :crybaby: EDIT - Stop living in a cave - ULTRA version on the way. EDIT - Its dying. 3s standing strong(er)
  • JinraiJinrai Joined: Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Where the hell have you been!? Are you still on XBL?
    I retired years ago; recently came back. I'm interested in getting back on the 3S horse, but I'm wary about playing online in a game with parries.
  • MarbleMarble エバラ HUGOOO Joined: Posts: 321
    How do you get Poison to come on screen when doing Hugo's taunt in Online Edition? Obviously start just pauses the game.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    Up + taunt
    かかってきな。
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Sanchez!
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  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    Perhaps someone can attach a video of the meters that have to do with juggling. It's a lot easier to understand that way I think.
  • HelloWorldHelloWorld Joined: Posts: 23
    ryan. wrote: »
    Perhaps someone can attach a video of the meters that have to do with juggling. It's a lot easier to understand that way I think.



    Yeah, the writing is dense; apologies for that. I posted this above; it's the video that accompanies the explanation on the site. The relevant mechanisms are illustrated below the 2P health bar: The number to the gauge's left is Reduction Value while the green, draining material in the gauge is the Pursuit Time for that value.

    First example is pretty standard. Yun starts the juggle with EX-nishou (two hits: RV+1 and RV+2 respectively; RV is now 3 and PT ticks down from 81 frames), then just the second hit of another EX-nishou (RV+2; RV is now 5 and PT ticks down from 41 frames), and finally both hits of yet another EX-nishou that just barely connects before the previous PT drains out (RV+1, RV+2; RV is now 8 and PT is a mere 5 frames).

    The second example is more interesting. Q hits an airborne Ken with close st.Jab (RV+1) xx SA2 (RV+1, then RV+2). The Jab starts the juggle and, like most grounded normals, causes Air-Reset; however, the Jab is also one of two rare grounded normals in Q's moveset that isn't RV+15. So, because RV is only 1 after the Jab (and thus PT draining out to end the juggle is not an issue because it's like 120 frames) and SA2 starts up in 2 frames (fast enough to combo off the Jab's hitstun), the whole thing is one combo with the air-reset state caused by the jab immediately set to air-reeling again by the SA before Ken can flip out of hitstun (like he does when hit by most normals in the air).
    RV becomes 4 after the whole thing and PT is 61 frames. As illustrated in the video, Q can't connect with the attempted followup st.Fierce because PT just barely runs out.

    To further explore hypotheticals with the mechanics: The above combo doesn't work with any other normal Q has. Almost all of Q's other normals are RV+15, so hitting an airborne opponent with them renders comboing with this super impossible (SA2 is not 1-frame startup and thus cannot connect fast enough to combo when RV is 15), and only other one that isn't RV+15 (b+Strong, RV+1) isn't cancellable and recovers too slowly for him to combo into super on an air-reset target.
    However, with the two non-RV15 normals it's possible to still juggle with SA2 (just can't combo with it) after the airborne hit IF you can land the super. E.g. if you do close st.Jab earlier and link the SA2 instead of cancelling, or if you use the upper end of b+Strong when the opponent is at around max jump height and then crank the super out so it hits the air-reset opponent just before he lands on the ground. Note that in this scenario it's possible to air-parry the SA2 if the parry is inputted properly, but if the super hits the followup st.Fierce after the SA2 will STILL whiff because RV is unchanged from before. Even though the normal didn't combo into SA2, the juggle counter values are the same.

    Eh, maybe it still reads like rambling nonsense. The example with Q is a bit too quirky to be very insightful; probably easier to see the mechanics with a character like Gouki, who uses them a lot in many of his actual juggles.
  • D.R.E.D.R.E. One. Little. Voice. Joined: Posts: 1,293
    Scrubby question incoming..but when exactly do you tap down for Quick Rise? I don't get to play much third strike on my own for practice and when I play at a friends house I can never get the hang of it..mashing it doesn't work apparently..
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    Double tap down when you land on the floor.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    D.R.E. wrote: »
    Scrubby question incoming..but when exactly do you tap down for Quick Rise? I don't get to play much third strike on my own for practice and when I play at a friends house I can never get the hang of it..mashing it doesn't work apparently..

    what the? Mashing does work
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  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    a few months ago we talked about characters falling out of Chun SA2. did anyone ever figure out why this happens? I've only ever seen it with Chun confirming back fierce on a crouching Makoto. is that the only situation it happens or are there others?

    can't remember where it was posted now.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    crouching strongs
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  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    at first I thought yeah it's just a weird counterpoke thing. like you catch the tip of Mak low strong with back fierce and maybe the distance is too far or something? but yesterday I caught someone guessing low with back fierce, this was point blank on top of them, and Mak still fell out of Houyoku after a few hits.

    this was on arcade so it definitely happens in all versions of the game.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Sounds like maybe you linked the back fierce. You can usually see the skip on screen when you hit one of the cancels that's going to drop them into block. So like maybe it's on a receding frame. I remember mentioning that before in this thread. The 3s chars aren't like the chars in other games. They breath and their breath is made apparent by a shift in their hurt boxes and push boxes.
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  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    ah yeah that's definitely a possibility I think. it would explain why sometimes she falls out and sometimes she doesn't. maybe in her crouching breathing pattern her hurtbox shifts in just so slightly a way that it'll sometimes drop.

    I wanna try this with the hurtboxes visible! time to go investigate FBA-RR and see if I can figure anything out.
  • MarbleMarble エバラ HUGOOO Joined: Posts: 321
    This happens to more characters than just Mak. It happened to me on arcade when I was playing Ken (Though I can't remember the specific conditions). Tokido told me it can happen against all the shotos. No idea why either, though.
  • JAK..JAK.. Joined: Posts: 544
    It happens the most on Mak, the twins, and Elena. Seems to be something related to their crouching hurt reel/box causing the last hits of the first wave to miss.

    B.fp only, mid-screen only, and you can prevent it from happening by doing b.fpxfbxxsa2 mid screen.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited September 2014
    Hakkei into houyoku also doesn't work consistently on Sean. I've never experienced it vs the twins or Elena.
    かかってきな。
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    good info everyone!

    just a heads up in case anyone was curious - Makoto's hurtboxes don't seem to move. Isotopez checked today. obviously some characters do (breathing animation) but whether standing or crouching Makoto's boxes don't move at all.
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,885 mod
    is there something similar going on with the twins? its weird to me that makoto and the twins seem to be culprits here and are also the characters that you can combo RH x ducking upper on them when they are standing.
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited September 2014
    I fell out of lance's super the other day while i was playing ken. That was the first time i've ever seen it happen to ken. Too bad I wasn't blocking

    Chun, oro, and ibuki also don't seem to breath. Everyone else's hitboxes move around.

    It also seems that the breathing animations don't have an effect on where your hitboxes are height-wise after you get hit i.e. breathing only affects where on your body you get hit (or don't get hit).
    Post edited by isotopez on
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    I personally don't late cancel hakkei vs a lot of characters anymore. Not worth the small risk
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,702
    isotopez wrote: »
    I fell out of lance's super the other day while i was playing ken. That was the first time i've ever seen it happen to ken. Too bad I wasn't blocking

    Chun, oro, and ibuki also don't seem to breath. Everyone else's hitboxes move around.

    It also seems that the breathing animations don't have an effect on where your hitboxes are height-wise after you get hit i.e. breathing only affects where on your body you get hit (or don't get hit).

    I can't imagine it would. Once a character is hit they're going to go into whatever appropriate hit animation.

    unless part of sa2 whiffed just barely on the first possible hit meaning chun's relative location when starting to hit would be different (since she moves forward) which might cause something odd as she continues.

    Only reasonable way to explain it. Where their hurtboxes are relative to her hitboxes and at what point causes them to drop out from whatever knockback there is vs her own movement during the super.
    Play more.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Considering these guys thought of everything, you think maybe the way the clothes is "hiding" the characters body, in tune with the lore more rather than some arbitrary system design ( none of which exists in 3s ), you think...you know what? Nevermind.
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,702
    you aren't saying anything.
    of course theres a 'system design'. stamina, super meter, super, special, normal, ex, stun, parry, uoh, throw, jump, dash, etc.
    that's system design. very basic decisions about what playing the game even means. what's the point, how do you accomplish it, how do you interact with it.

    maybe what you mean is compared to some other games it is very open ended about how these elements are actually used. which i would agree with. compared to some characters in arc system works games which often have character unique meters and the like as opposed to a shared pool of options which have different values to different characters at different times.
    Play more.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    edited September 2014
    No, that's not what I mean at all. I'll admit I didn't try to think about what you wrote beyond simply reading it.

    I'm saying that although there is no real indication to Makoto's hurtbox moving, at least none that you have all come up with in your very comprehensive analysis of the "available" system variables, MAYBE, there are some less explicit interactions at play that go along with making the game more of a game about a story/anime into and of itself. I recall reading somewhere that Makoto was very self-sconscious about her breasts, so much so that she tapes them down or wears a sports bra. So, Makoto wears baggy clothes, and considering that most characters move when they breath, maybe her baggy clothing is "hiding" the movement on her hurtbox. Likewise, Ibuki wears baggy clothes and it plays in to a lot of her hurtboxes and hitboxes. It's a game, not the zero zero algorithm to human gene regeneration.
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  • DevdanDevdan Joined: Posts: 538
    Someone explain this one for me. Maybe it's a day 1 that I just never caught onto, I don't know, but it's bugging me.

    I was fighting a Hugo earlier with Dudley. He hit me with in air with sa3, and I bounced out. I don't know the proper punish, but I tried dashing in and using roundhouse before he recovered, and it hit. Then I tried to combo into EX Machinegun, because why wouldn't I do that? He was able to block it. Why?
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Devdan wrote: »
    Someone explain this one for me. Maybe it's a day 1 that I just never caught onto, I don't know, but it's bugging me.

    I was fighting a Hugo earlier with Dudley. He hit me with in air with sa3, and I bounced out. I don't know the proper punish, but I tried dashing in and using roundhouse before he recovered, and it hit. Then I tried to combo into EX Machinegun, because why wouldn't I do that? He was able to block it. Why?

    EX mgb is slow as fuck. Unless you're running into the corner it doesn't hit earlier. I only say running into the corner because of a recent experience on ggpo, so that might be wrong. But yeah, ex mgb is slow as fuck, and shoto cr rh is quick as balls. If you mean dudley cr rh, I don't know what to tell you.
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  • DevdanDevdan Joined: Posts: 538
    edited September 2014
    I mean Dudley's RH into EX MGB. It's like, his bnb. I use it all the time. It whiffs crouching on some characters, but I don't think Hugo is one of those characters...also, he wasn't crouching.

    I've noticed in training mode that sometimes stuff doesn't combo right on stunned characters too, and have always found that odd, but it's never been an issue in a real match. [edit] this is unrelated, Hugo was not stunned.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    You probably late cancelled it.

    And the training mode bug has been present since dc and ps2. When the dummy has no life the combos break for no reason.
  • DevdanDevdan Joined: Posts: 538
    Sure didn't feel like I did, but if there's no obvious-to-pros reason I'll chalk it up to netplay. Good to know that the other thing is only in training mode though.
  • darkhiryuudarkhiryuu Hello Hella Joined: Posts: 202
    Were you playing online? I've had that happen sometimes, or if I do EX MGB into Ducking Upper the Ducking Upper hits go through their body. It's most likely due to lag.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    I've had rh -> ex mgb not combo on arcade. It just happens sometimes. Probably has to do with what Ryan said.
  • DeemoDeemo Joined: Posts: 466
    Wakeup speeds - Bringing this up again http://gr.qee.jp/01_3rd/01/base/12.html

    I'm pretty sure this table is inaccurate or possibly missing a 4th wakeup speed? Dudley cannot safe jump or meaty rose 12 after sa3 knockdown because he wakes up too fast but nothing on this table indicates it, so confused
  • DeemoDeemo Joined: Posts: 466
    edited October 2014
    accidental double post
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