[KOFXIII] NESTS Kyo

Great_Dark_Hero

Greetings all personnel, fellow members, and guests,

Er... It might be a little too early for tiers in a game such as KOF XIII. I recently got a hold of NEST Kyo, who is a alternate version of the regular Kyo in the game. This Kyo is based on how he fought before during the NESTS saga (KOF 99', 2000, and 2001 - 2002 included as a dream match).
To me, NETS Kyo is a standard character who is pretty combo friendly and has many methods of attacking... right? But, I don't really hear too many people speaking about it, so I thought I should bring up this matter. If there is already a thread meant for NEST Kyo and his game play information then disregard this thread.

The purpose of this thread is explore NEST Kyo match ups, tier placement (hypothetical and literal), practical combos, counteracting, defensive maneuvers, pros, and cons. Feel free to describe game play experiences with NEST Kyo and/or add any criticism or beneficial information on character game play.

Ben Reed

EX Kyo play is still developing, but ultimately, I think it's gonna be an apples-and-oranges kinda choice. Either one's fine. Just pick the one you like best.

I'd say most of the differences between the two emerge at the very basic level, and become less restrictive/meaningful as you get better at the character(s).

Regular Kyo has crappier blockstrings (crappier s.B, only one safely spaced special on block with fireball) , but superior meterless damage from lights (because of cancellable df+D (1), allowing for qcf+D from light hits).

EX Kyo has inferior meterless damage from lights (can't get heavy hitstun from his light normals and retain special cancel, so he has to settle for c.B c.B s.B xx A rekkas or c.B c.A qcf+B,B and its limited enders), but superior blockstrings (much better chain properties on s.B and excellent safety/spacing/whiff cancel and autoguard idiosyncracies of qcf+A).

Once their bars light up, I'd say most of their differences emerge mid-combo. Regular Kyo doesn't have much for corner carry (most of his corner-carrying moves end his combos midscreen, because he's reliant on qcf+D into juggle), but he does a shitton of damage in the corner for fairly little bar (qcf+D, rdp+B xx air Orochinagi, even the basic followups hurt like hell). EX Kyo is more of a generalist and tries to compromise between damage and corner carry for the same amount of bar (eg qcf+AC,qcf+A,hcb+P,P [DC] qcf+D,D -> whatever), which is generally an okay compromise. If the opponent lives through his combo, they're usually in the corner, where EX Kyo can get really abusive with the spacing on his normals and qcf+A to lock the opponent in.

It is really good to see that the choice between Kyos in this game is relatively difficult to make. For years fireball Kyo was kinda lacking compared to rekka Kyo (when they were in the same game). Fireball Kyo in this game is the best he's EVER been.

Great_Dark_Hero

NEST Kyo also shares two of the same special attacks which are QCF+LK or HK, or HCB+LK or HK, as well the same normal moves - But, it became apparent during my little test run in the mission trials that his normal moves and those specials work very differently.
... I go on practice mode against the regular Kyo - it should be understood that NEST Kyo can nullify projectiles with the first hit of his Rekka punch (the auto-block from the attack helps as well). Unlike most close-quarter characters, NEST Kyo does not seem to have a problem dealing with characters that have projectiles.

As for QCF+LK/HK, the LK version sets the opponent up for a proficient juggle, unlike the regular Kyo's version which only leave a small window for him to attack or at least get one reset out of the opponent. The EX versions of NEST Kyo's attack requires the player to still press the HK and Kyo will barely leap off of the ground, allowing for a better recovery in case the opponent wants to be smart and trip or throw you away.
NEST Kyo's HCB+LK/HK can still cancel... Drive cancel into other specials which is quite pleasant... image doing that during the second LP rekka punch and drive cancelling into NEST Kyo's special and then drive cancelling into his double lift kick and then scoring a Orochinagi on the opponent... NEST Kyo has many uses for his meter because of all of those special moves. The EX version of this move however, works completely different. NEST Kyo's EX version involve Kyo still rushing towards the opponent, but moves so insanely quickly. It is not an auto-grab move and it would not be a good idea to use it as such. (I actually forgot about this more than a few times).

SF-Zero2

Great_Dark_Hero, post: 6376885, member: 60607 wrote:

As for QCF+LK/HK, the LK version sets the opponent up for a proficient juggle

Dunno if I'm missing something, but with the QCF+LK,LK or HK I can only get a LP/HP/EX to juggle when the opponent is near the top of pop up from QCF LK,LK-opponent drops through Rekkas and Supers, HCB+K everything else once the opponent is falling past the character portrait.
QCF HK,HK sets up anything for juggle.... am I misunderstanding something about the LK version?

Great_Dark_Hero

SF-Zero2, post: 6377390, member: 3819 wrote:

Dunno if I'm missing something, but with the QCF+LK,LK or HK I can only get a LP/HP/EX to juggle when the opponent is near the top of pop up from QCF LK,LK-opponent drops through Rekkas and Supers, HCB+K everything else once the opponent is falling past the character portrait.
QCF HK,HK sets up anything for juggle.... am I misunderstanding something about the LK version?

I worded that wrong. You can only slip a Oniyaki in after the QCF+LK,LK... it is not meant for "proficient" juggles but the HK version is.

Hatred Edge

You can land rdp+B after it as well. But using it over qcf+A, qcf+A, K is pointless. I doubt anyone is going to take a midscreen untechable knock down for 180 something damage over a 200 damage bnb that pushes the opponent really close to the corner.

Ben Reed

Yeah, from light attacks, if HD/Mu Shiki isn't available, A rekkas into K ender is the way to go. And the soft knockdown on that ender is actually a lot more preferable to the hard knockdown P ender, because even though they can tech, they're knocked up in the air, so Kyo gets a shitton of frame advantage compared to waiting for the elbow slam to recover. Plenty of time to set up whatever you want while they roll.

qcf+B,B -> rdp+B offers a decent chunk of stun, but IMO if stun is what you want, it's more efficient to take them to the corner and try for stun with stuff like qcf+D,D -> qcf+A -> qcf+A,hcb+P,P. Lets you play much more evenly for damage, stun, and battery (depending on how much meter you decide to spend in the corner).

Great_Dark_Hero

One of the more practical combo consist of Nests Kyo's command jump-in (Air Downward C), Close C, Forward B, QCF+A, Drive Cancel into QCF+A, QCF+A, HCB+A, A, QCF+D, D, and then use Oniyaki as a combo finisher. Nest Kyo can build his gauge up pretty quickly and, while the notation looks intimidating, it becomes simple after the first few tries. (After Kyo punches the opponent with the third hit of the "Shiki - Nanase", the opponent will... "bounce" off of the ground, leaving an extremely small window for Nest Kyo to perform a quick Shiki - Kai (QCF+ B, B or D, D).

But, what about team placement??

rogueyoshi

i think that some of you need to re-access the value of being able to use hard knockdowns to remove peoples options through safejump/os setups over getting slightly more damage with soft knockdowns and forfeiting oki. its invaluable for him to be able to this, especially given how practical it is to get them

Ben Reed

I'm not saying "hard knockdown is never worth it", it's just that from what I've seen, not all of his hard knockdown options are created equal. Air hit j. d+C seems pretty good. Throw is a given. The P ender to A rekkas, less so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like there's nearly enough frame advantage after that elbow hits to properly safe jump.

EDIT: Quick test seems like there IS enough frame advantage for a safe jump, but it seems kinda inconsistent midscreen. I set the dummy to do run up, c.B c.A qcf+A,qcf+P,P, and the elbow missed about 50% of the time.

But if it's in the corner, you're right, it is a better option than I realized. I didn't know the recovery::knockdown time ratio on the elbow was actually that favorable. Thanks, rogueyoshi.

Great_Dark_Hero

What about team placement? He would normally be the first one on my team to fight.

Hatred Edge

Kyo tends to always be placed as battery. He does pretty good damage with EX moves though.

Zeromurasame

I usually run Ex Kyo either on point or on secondary(depends on the other character). He seems to be able to fill those two positions very well.

phoenixnl

Ben Reed, post: 6384966, member: 5996 wrote:

The P ender to A rekkas, less so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like there's nearly enough frame advantage after that elbow hits to properly safe jump.

EDIT: Quick test seems like there IS enough frame advantage for a safe jump, but it seems kinda inconsistent midscreen. I set the dummy to do run up, c.B c.A qcf+A,qcf+P,P, and the elbow missed about 50% of the time.

But if it's in the corner, you're right, it is a better option than I realized. I didn't know the recovery::knockdown time ratio on the elbow was actually that favorable.Thanks, rogueyoshi.

It's is incredibly inconsisnt midscreen, I haven't yet figured out what makes it hit even, like, I can record the dummy and have it hit, play back and it whiffs.

Either way. If you DO hit that final P follow up, you have a perfect guaranteed safejump on literally everyone of the cast. If you superjump instantly after the end of the P follow up (no real timing required because you can buffer it) It safejumps Ryo's dp+A, Saiki's 2xqcf+K, even King's EX surprise rose. So far I have found only one move that it cannot safejump and that is King's neomax.

So yeah, the safejump he gets off that follow up, should be a no brainer to use in the corner, and maybe it is more consistent midscreen to hit the P follow up from a naked qcf+A, which you'll be hitting plenty of times as well.

hcb+K safejumps like regular kyo's, instant superjump, and it safejumps all 4+ startup reversals (or something)

rogueyoshi, post: 6383308, member: 4119 wrote:

i think that some of you need to re-access the value of being able to use hard knockdowns to remove peoples options through safejump/os setups over getting slightly more damage with soft knockdowns and forfeiting oki. its invaluable for him to be able to this, especially given how practical it is to get them

On the recent streams I noticed you doing some funky looking setups. especially after j.d+C. Something like qcf+D,D, hyperhop j.d+C, roll, hyperhop j.d+C into crossup?

And I guess you can also set up an ambiguous roll setup with it? Any specific tech you're willing to share?

Also want to point out that unlike with regular kyo, it is possible to qcf,D,D hyperhop reset and do run under mixups.

blockhead

I prefer XIII Kyo to NESTS because I've never liked his qcf+p attack. I prefer the ground fireball. In regard to 2002, XIII kyo is a lot like "Kusanagi" and NESTS Kyo is basically regular Kyo right?

Zeromurasame

XIII Kyo is Kusanagi but better and NESTS Kyo is mostly 98 Kyo with some of his NESTS arc tricks.

phoenixnl

You can't really compare.

XIII Kyo doesn't have the qcb+P counter moves that Kusanagi is. NESTS Kyo has 98 Kyo hcb+K instead of NESTS hcb+K, but if the moveset is supposed to be 98 Kyo's, it lacks 98 Kyo counter moves.

Neither Kyo is as 'all round' as older iterations of Kyo used to be, in return, they both do obscene amounts of damage. Their normals are a lot more limited. I think in all-roundness NESTS Kyo wins out. He still can't anti-hop reliably with st.A, but his st.A cannot be crouched, which makes it way better than Normal Kyo's st.A. NESTS Kyo has access to a fairly safe anti-hop move with qcf+A. st.D is terrible if you're used to either Kusanagi or 98 Kyo. It can be crouched very easily. It literally can't hit crouchers ever. This makes Kyo's aerial zoning a lot less braindead, but also a lot less good. This is clearly a point where Claw/Flame Iori (The other traditional all-round characters) are vastly superior.

The differences in their st.B's (NESTS can chain his) obviously work out in NESTS Kyo's favour.

So what does Normal Kyo have? Damage, so much damage. NESTS Kyo does better damage at low costs, but Kyo has incredible damage as soon as he has meter and drive.
Besides that, Kyo has a more all-round specials moveset. Kyo obviously has a fireball, which is a pretty big deal, because a fireball on the screen forces people to commit to hops or blocks. Fast EXDM allows him to punish all kinds of 'safe' stuff. And even though his hcb+BD is not that good, having access to a command grab that leads into a safejump is a pretty nice addition to his moveset, which, due to diminished use of normals, is clearly more focused on rushdown now.

Personally I love NESTS Kyo because he feels more like a traditional KOF character. To me, there is no reason to play Normal Kyo ever. I think NESTS Kyo is superior in every way. But Normal Kyo is clearly the better anchor, and has somewhat better options to open the opponent up, while NESTS Kyo has to rely more on the opponent running into his wall of autoguarding nonsense.

Ben Reed

Fine by me. I love characters that win by making walls of nonsense. Just ask the guy in my avatar (even though TBH I can't stand playing his game anymore ever since console KOF 13 came out).

LiftedResearch

Having some trouble doing EX Kyo HD combos - I can't get the [qcf+C, HDC qcf+A] x n part correct...I just get the rest of the A rekka series.

Any tips on this? In the hyperguide it says there's a helpful shortcut but I can't get that to work either.

Tanner

LiftedResearch, post: 6469317, member: 3473 wrote:

Having some trouble doing EX Kyo HD combos - I can't get the [qcf+C, HDC qcf+A] x n part correct...I just get the rest of the A rekka series.

Any tips on this? In the hyperguide it says there's a helpful shortcut but I can't get that to work either.

For some reason after the first rekka, tiger kneeing the other ones works for me.

LiftedResearch

Tanner, post: 6469658, member: 7066 wrote:

For some reason after the first rekka, tiger kneeing the other ones works for me.

Wow...that did the trick. Thanks!

Great_Dark_Hero

I found a very useful video for those who intend on using NEST Kyo. Be sure to watch this video carefully.

Great_Dark_Hero

Heads up, my fellow King of Fighters enthusiasts!
I just found a good article that elaborates on NEST Kyo's as a character. There is even a comparison between the Regular Kyo and NEST Kyo!
Please read carefully and continue to have fun.

http://logicfighter.com/2012/01/11/nests-kyo-breakdown/

Great_Dark_Hero

Damn this thread is empty! Regardless... Eventhubs... posted a tier list for KOF XIII - NEST/EX Kyo seems pretty high up, but I don't really trust Eventhubs all that much and I believe it still might be too early for a tier list. Those who are curious enough to view this list, please do so.

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/may/22/tiers-king-fighters-13-eventhubs-community/

Rich.

Nest Kyo is a beast, IMO better than regular Kyo. That rekka is too good

Great_Dark_Hero

Rich., post: 7004770, member: 21315 wrote:

Nest Kyo is a beast, IMO better than regular Kyo. That rekka is too good

(I'm SO thrilled with this game, it is not even funny!) Yeah man, no kidding! Nest Kyo has a lot of options as well and his Rekka series during HD mode become easier to use overtime if you can get a hit confirm. Although, I do think he is pretty high tier, I wouldn't trust Eventhubs too much... I might try to create personal tier list of where the characters stand now... The damage of his Neo Max does not scale TOO badly even after Neo Max Cancel from either one of his specials. It's best to do a decent HD combo and then immediately after triggering HD mode
On KOF XIII Climax, jump-in combos are also going to be slightly harder to do, but not enough to impede anyone else's progress (accept maybe someone like Kula because she kinda relies on jump-ins for decent damage!). Be sure to take a look at the Regular and NEST Kyo comparison's to learn some cool stuff.

aznpikachu215

Great_Dark_Hero, post: 7005010, member: 60607 wrote:

(I'm SO thrilled with this game, it is not even funny!) Yeah man, no kidding! Nest Kyo has a lot of options as well and his Rekka series during HD mode become easier to use overtime if you can get a hit confirm. Although, I do think he is pretty high tier, I wouldn't trust Eventhubs too much... I might try to create personal tier list of where the characters stand now... The damage of his Neo Max does not scale TOO badly even after Neo Max Cancel from either one of his specials. It's best to do a decent HD combo and then immediately after triggering HD mode
On KOF XIII Climax, jump-in combos are also going to be slightly harder to do, but not enough to impede anyone else's progress (accept maybe someone like Kula because she kinda relies on jump-ins for decent damage!). Be sure to take a look at the Regular and NEST Kyo comparison's to learn some cool stuff.

Well, it depends how one plays, wouldn't you think? I think both of them are good in their own way.

XIII Kyo = KUSANAGI
NESTS Kyo = 99-02 + XI Kyo.

phoenixnl

Great_Dark_Hero, post: 7005010, member: 60607 wrote:

On KOF XIII Climax, jump-in combos are also going to be slightly harder to do, but not enough to impede anyone else's progress (accept maybe someone like Kula because she kinda relies on jump-ins for decent damage!). Be sure to take a look at the Regular and NEST Kyo comparison's to learn some cool stuff.

Who told you that? That's not true. Going from Arcade to Console, jump-ins became harder to do, not from console to climax.

So unless you were comparing Arcade XIII to Climax, that statement is wrong.

Great_Dark_Hero

phoenixnl, post: 7076735, member: 4694 wrote:

Who told you that? That's not true. Going from Arcade to Console, jump-ins became harder to do, not from console to climax.

So unless you were comparing Arcade XIII to Climax, that statement is wrong.

I misunderstood that. Nevermind.

Gamerboy15

I got a question. What are the chances NESTS Kyo can do if he is put as anchor?

Great_Dark_Hero

Gamerboy15, post: 7233560, member: 18463 wrote:

I got a question. What are the chances NESTS Kyo can do if he is put as anchor?

NEST Kyo benefits from a lot of meter generated from the second character, but NEST Kyo generally does better as a battery character. There are much viable anchors such as Shen, Claw Iori, Ash, or even Leona. NESTS Kyo does not need 5 meters to get the job done. Kyo should either be a first character or a secondary character should he be a team. If you were to ever put NEST Kyo as an anchor you should have a good meter building as second character (or at least a character who can build meter fairly quickly and has good meter-less combos). Such characters include King, Yuri, Kula, Andy, Betty... things like those. NEST Kyo himself also builds meter quickly which is why is good starter character, along with auto guard in a few of his specials. It is best to watch out for zoners as well and use your EX move sparingly (use the EX R.E.D. Kick for psuedo-anti air or giving over some projectiles.) EX HCB x P is also a good reversal as well. If you intend to use Kyo as an anchor, be cautious of the match up and the amount of meter you save up. It is easy for someone like NEST Kyo to do around 740 dmg (like this: cl.C, df.D, (HD activation), cl.C, f.B, QCFxC, HCBxC, QCFxA, QCFxC, HCBxC, QCFxA, QCFxC > QCFx2 A, (Max Cancel) QCFx2 B/C = 740 OR cl.C, df.D, (HD activation), cl.C, f.B, HCBxD, EX Orochinagi > (Max Cancel) QCFx B/C = over 700 damage.
NEST Kyo would do well as an anchor depending on the match and the players circumstance, yet this is not a recommended position for him.

MAGUNITO

While i feel that EX Kyo is defenitly most effective as a point due to his below average damage, he is still a very well rounded character that can fill any slot if you have another char you would rather have first.

(And a more effective HD combo would be: st.C, df.D, B+C, st.D x qcf.C [HDC dp.C HDC qcf.C] x2, HDC dp.C HDC qcf.D~D, qcf.C, dp.C HDC qcf qcf.BD - 770 dmg 2 bars ^^)

Gamerboy15

Great_Dark_Hero, post: 7233696, member: 60607 wrote:

NEST Kyo benefits from a lot of meter generated from the second character, but NEST Kyo generally does better as a battery character. There are much viable anchors such as Shen, Claw Iori, Ash, or even Leona. NESTS Kyo does not need 5 meters to get the job done. Kyo should either be a first character or a secondary character should he be a team. If you were to ever put NEST Kyo as an anchor you should have a good meter building as second character (or at least a character who can build meter fairly quickly and has good meter-less combos). Such characters include King, Yuri, Kula, Andy, Betty... things like those. NEST Kyo himself also builds meter quickly which is why is good starter character, along with auto guard in a few of his specials. It is best to watch out for zoners as well and use your EX move sparingly (use the EX R.E.D. Kick for psuedo-anti air or giving over some projectiles.) EX HCB x P is also a good reversal as well. If you intend to use Kyo as an anchor, be cautious of the match up and the amount of meter you save up. It is easy for someone like NEST Kyo to do around 740 dmg (like this: cl.C, df.D, (HD activation), cl.C, f.B, QCFxC, HCBxC, QCFxA, QCFxC, HCBxC, QCFxA, QCFxC > QCFx2 A, (Max Cancel) QCFx2 B/C = 740 OR cl.C, df.D, (HD activation), cl.C, f.B, HCBxD, EX Orochinagi > (Max Cancel) QCFx B/C = over 700 damage.
NEST Kyo would do well as an anchor depending on the match and the players circumstance, yet this is not a recommended position for him.

MAGUNITO, post: 7235894, member: 6974 wrote:

While i feel that EX Kyo is defenitly most effective as a point due to his below average damage, he is still a very well rounded character that can fill any slot if you have another char you would rather have first.

(And a more effective HD combo would be: st.C, df.D, B+C, st.D x qcf.C [HDC dp.C HDC qcf.C] x2, HDC dp.C HDC qcf.D~D, qcf.C, dp.C HDC qcf qcf.BD - 770 dmg 2 bars ^^)

Alright, that sounds true to me alright. Sorry I posted this really late, but thank you for all the advices. I'll work my way around NESTS Kyo on those positions. Thanks guys!

IsshunSengeki

Hey, guys! Check out this EX Kyo corner combo I just discovered*!
(j.d+C) cl.C, f+B xx qcf+AC > qcf+A > hcb+P > P DC qcf+D~D, qcf+C, qcf+A > hcb+P > P
Without j.d+C: 408 damage
With j.d+C: 429 damage
1 meter, 1 Drive, corner required.

*by 'discovered', I mean I found this combo by myself, but someone else has probably done it before me.

MAGUNITO

Yeah thats his 1 bar 1 drive BnB :). Midscreen DC into hcb.D instead of qcf.D~D

Great_Dark_Hero

Several changes were made towards NESTS Kyo DC wiki article. The changes established dealt with his pros and his cons, the differences between the Regular Kyo and NESTS Kyo himself, some match ups were added, additional game play overview.
http://www.dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=NESTS_Kyo_(XIII)

Great_Dark_Hero

... Actually, here. The differences between NESTS Kyo and the Regular Kyo -
I already edit this into the DC wiki, but please inform me if any changes need to be addressed.
[SIZE=13px]- NESTS Kyo can combo into f.B from cl.C unlike the regular Kyo.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]- NESTS Kyo has better hit confirms as his st.B hits low and can be chained into each other.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]- The Regular Kyo Orochinagi DM is a lot better than NESTS Kyo, while the latter seems a bit on the slow side.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]- NESTS Kyo's overall corner pressure is better than the regular Kyo's.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]- NESTS Kyo lacks the ability to out zone his opponent, thus making his long range options limited compared to the regular Kyo's.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]- Their DP's are different: NESTS Kyo's DP+A is similar to the regular Kyo's DP+A but their C versions are where the differences are. NESTS Kyo's autoguard during the DP+C motion is far more blatant and hits twice. Regular Kyo's DP+C hits three times. NESTS EX DP motion has him travel slightly into the air and remain stationary while performing the move until it is finished. Kyo's EX DP just has him travel high into the air vertically.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]- NESTS Kyo's QCB+K requires him to "catch" the opponent and then cause an explosion, while the EX version works as another damaging reversal option. NEST Kyo will still go through the same animation sequence making the move unsafe. The Regular Kyo's version of this move automatically works after the first successful hit and the animations stops with Kyo's elbow in front of him. The EX version of the move works as a command throw (Between 1 to 4 frames).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]- To finish Kyo's upkicks (QCF+K), the player must input another kick notation to finish the move. The regular Kyo's secondary kick from this move automatically comes out.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px]- NESTS Kyo can not cancel his down forward.D command move at all and is best used for HD combos[/SIZE]