How does hit stun deterioration work?

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  • chirpchirp Joined: Posts: 3,169
    so my hunch was correct! assuming that you're correct.

    what cinematic specials are there? the only ones i can think of are web throw, crazy dance, a couple of ghost rider's moves, and ammy's counter(s). i guess command grabs too, i'm not sure on those though. i mean in regards to hsd, i'm pretty sure they're cinematics (neither character will get hit by other stuff on the screen during the move)
  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am pretty sure those are cinematics. The only one I am familiar with is web throw, being a spidey main.

    In fact, I'll go ahead and say that spidey might not be the best character to base things on because I'm pretty sure that he was coded differently from other characters for some reason. (Maximum spider didn't cause DHC glitch state in vanilla, web throw didn't scale, in ultimate they added "spinning the stick" to ultimate web throw which increases the damage of the ultimate web throw but scales the rest of the combo down significantly, to the point where the only point to spinning the stick for ultimate web throw is to decrease the damage your combo does so you can build more meter if you know it will still kill)

    but yeah if you start a combo with Vergil's dark angel I believe the HSD is still pretty low

    uhh also ammy's counters seem to have very high HSD in the combo, but I think it might be due to the fact that you expend ground bounce to combo off it (yes i know you don't have to, i've just seen a lot of people do this)
    OR it might have extra HSD on it already a la a throw.

    so some moves themselves may affect HSD differently, which is weird. but it would be like throws and cinematic type stuff.




    ANOTHER EXAMPLE: Wesker's counter super in Ultimate has noticeably low hitstun for the rest of the combo.

    I guess that cinematics do not run the HSD timer, but some can set it to a specific time.
    IE Throws, wesker's counter super, ammy's counter
    Spiderman's web throw seems to not run the HSD timer at all
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  • mamesmames Joined: Posts: 40
    it allows awesome characters to kill and limits X23 to two reps for 400k damage.
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2013
    bleh
    Post edited by Duck Strong on
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  • Demon DashDemon Dash Hyper Viper Raccoon! Joined: Posts: 5,854 ✭✭✭
    What would add more hitstun deterioration? Using a j.L in one of Raccoons combos? Or waiting to float in the air to use j.M?
    "I'm speculating that it was M.O.D.O.K. that tore my dog's ACL. That crazy maniac was flying his hoverchair DRUNK. DRUNK on POWER. And booze. But mostly on POWER!" - corrosivefrost :rofl:
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Whichever one takes longer to do.
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  • Demon DashDemon Dash Hyper Viper Raccoon! Joined: Posts: 5,854 ✭✭✭
    Is hit stun not affected by L's at all?
    "I'm speculating that it was M.O.D.O.K. that tore my dog's ACL. That crazy maniac was flying his hoverchair DRUNK. DRUNK on POWER. And booze. But mostly on POWER!" - corrosivefrost :rofl:
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2013
    Not really

    Friendly tip, don't believe anything the top players say about these things.
    Post edited by Duck Strong on
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    grounded strings affect hitstun deterioration far less than juggles, but they do in fact deteriorate hitstun a little bit.
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  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure that's really true.

    The hit stun timer starts further along when the first hit of a combo is done on an airborn opponent if that's what you mean. Semantics I guess, but I think the way you're putting it is not a 100% accurate way of describing it.

    For example, you can start a combo the same way with a jump in on both a grounded or airborn opponent, then go into your typical ground string into launcher and you will be able to do far more in the first case regardless of the starters being completely identical.

    Once you get that first hit, it doesn't really matter if every single subsequent hit of the combo is a jumping attack. The initial state of the defender is what matters (at least in my experience).
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2013
    a string on a grounded opponent is what i should have said

    anyway we are on the same page pretty much
    Post edited by phantasy on
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  • MercurialMercurial Recoverin XSF Addict Joined: Posts: 136
    As a seasoned lab technician that's played this game too much, the general consensus in this thread matches what I've known/believed to be true for some time. That being that,

    - Hitstun Decay is a timer
    - A timer that moves much faster when the opponent is off their feet. Characters like Hawkeye/Frank(net/zombiegrab) can do huge strings against grounded opponents that have a small affect on hitstun decay.
    - Hitstun on SJ normals is innately higher
    - Cinematics pause the timer. Frank can Kneedrop -> Tools Cinematic -> Hyper Sentinel Force -> Relaunch into combo, for instance.
    - TACs temporarily reset HSD to 0, but reenact it in full after the TAC pause is over.
    - Everything pauses during hitstop, hitstun included. This is important so people understand that a one second bounce off of a wall/groundbounce is much "longer" than one second doing jMMHS.

    I believe the issues I quoted here have simple answers, though

    phantasy wrote: »
    but yeah if you start a combo with Vergil's dark angel I believe the HSD is still pretty low

    uhh also ammy's counters seem to have very high HSD in the combo, but I think it might be due to the fact that you expend ground bounce to combo off it (yes i know you don't have to, i've just seen a lot of people do this)
    OR it might have extra HSD on it already a la a throw.

    so some moves themselves may affect HSD differently, which is weird. but it would be like throws and cinematic type stuff.

    ANOTHER EXAMPLE: Wesker's counter super in Ultimate has noticeably low hitstun for the rest of the combo.

    I guess that cinematics do not run the HSD timer, but some can set it to a specific time.
    IE Throws, wesker's counter super, ammy's counter
    Spiderman's web throw seems to not run the HSD timer at all

    The hitstun problems with throws can be explained by throws starting the hitstun timer when they grab you. These are long airborne/off-their-feet animations, and would cause a large amount of hitstun decay. Same with Ammy's Counters.

    Wesker's counter is a cinematic, and leaves them in a grounded state. Likewise, by the above rules, it would cause almost no hitstun decay. Same with UWT, it should be almost identical to a normal Vs Air confirm.

    Oh, and flight has SJ properties even if you cancel the startup frames of a SJ into it and get it from the ground, such as jump cancelling into it after a launch with a superjump. I really need to train my Sent to start making TK SJ Flight the default, when he's alone.
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2013
    I think not all throws are the same. Take Magneto's for example.

    He can essentially do any of his regular combos off a throw and I think it's because there is no hard knockdown.

    As a rule of thumb, if you can keep the opponent from the initial hard knockdown, you'll get more damage (Thor, Iron Man, Doom's back throw, etc)

    You might chalk it up to the hit stun timer, but I believe it's putting them in a non-standard state on the first hit that does it.

    But then you look at Doom's f throw, which allows much longer followups than it used to in Vanilla and you might think it breaks the rules, but I think it works the way it does because it's now considered a cinematic until the opponent hits the ground (Doom can't be hit).
    Post edited by Duck Strong on
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2013
    nah wesker's counter super makes the hitstun really bad

    i just think it sets the timer to a specific point

    also ground bounces do either the same thing or just kick the timer a lot
    wall bounces not as much
    Post edited by phantasy on
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  • DeathChaos25DeathChaos25 The smart guy with no real skills Joined: Posts: 22
    I don't think the state in which the opponent is when starting a combo affects hit stun, but rather the state in which they are during the combo itself.

    A perfect example of this would be Dante.

    For example, In a normal confirm, opponents are still grounded up until Volcano, but in a Hammer confirm, they are being Juggled from the Second hit on.

    By all intents and purposes, you should be able to do a normal Volcano series into Prop'n Shredder after a Hammer or Air S confirm.

    A Hammer confirm cuts up the initial 4 or 5 hits of the normal combo (St.L, St.M. St.H, Stinger), so the Hammer confirms are faster, yet you cannot go into Prop'n Shredder if Volcano is used from a Hammer confirm, meaning that maybe certain moves also advance the timer?

    Because the damage from a Hammer confirm could be ridiculous, yet for some strange reason Dante's move became an Oddball when he got nerfed from Vanilla.
  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is part of the grounded vs juggled state. A grounded opponent means the timer does not go as fast.
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  • KaoriKaori Would you like a demonstration? Joined: Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭
    HSD timer, number of hits, the actual attack itself.......does anyone really know what HSD is?
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,043 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2013
    It's mostly timer based, but is also affected if the initial hit is on an airborne opponent.

    Certain types of attacks (hard knockdown, wall bounce, ground bounce) when used as the first hit of a combo also seem to start the timer a little further along.

    Number of hits has absolutely nothing to do with it and neither do L attacks despite the common misconception.

    The minimum hit stun is 4 frames, which explains why certain attacks such as dp's, armor piercer, Doom's time or snapbacks can always be canceled into even off of L's no matter how late in a combo you are.
    Post edited by Duck Strong on
    My youtube channel (various MVC3 vids etc.):

    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrouchStrong?feature=mhsn
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