What makes SF4 a "bad" series?

RedVegaRedVega Joined: Posts: 844
I was just wondering why so many players (who actively play the game) call SF4 a bad game? Mind you, I entered the FGC thanks to SF4 and the past few years have taught me a lot about FGs in general thanks to this series and I have more importantly enjoyed all the moments....

Personally, I don't see what vets dislike about this series... so many people play it at a competitive level and spend countless hours in training mode developing safe jumps, combos, etc IMO the game isn't "derpy", there is a solid game of okizeme, footsie and zoning. The graphics...you get used to them just like practice.

so what's the beef?
Sorry if this thread has been made before..if it has feel free to delete although I would appreciate some thoughts from people who genuinely LIKE the game and those that DISLIKE it and state why.
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Comments

  • thats mind gamesthats mind games fgd scumbags Joined: Posts: 1,102
    Nice thread, guy who somehow has never read a single thread or post about the design of the hit 2008 fighting game Street Fighter 4.
    99% of ppl on shoryuken are neanderthals that like to "learn" how to slam a joystick and buttons around, put this in your sig if you're one of the 1% left that like to use their brain to win at fighting games
  • Negative-Zer0Negative-Zer0 Joined: Posts: 9,595
    People that don't like it are constantly shitting on it because it gets more attention than their main game. I am getting pretty sick of it honestly.
    “I was trying to take the easy way out by running away from everything. No matter the pain, I will keep living. So when I die, I'll feel I did the best I could.” - Koala
  • M.D.M.D. digs older chicks Joined: Posts: 4,188
    - Input shortcuts
    - Skewed risk/reward ratio
    - Comeback mechanics
    - Mechanics that don't cater to some archetypes like charge and keepaway characters
    - Dumb hitboxes/hurtboxes
    - Full of glicthes and bugs
    - Slow-paced
    - Pointless buffs/nerfs throughout each iteration.
    - Crappy versions of old characters and characters that don't really serve a purpose
    - Viper
    - Seth

    Keep in mind these are not all my reasons, but the stuff I'm hearing and seeing.
    "I'm deeeeeaaaadd!" - Williams
    UMVC3: Shehulk/Haggar/Thor
    SSF4: Seth, Gen, Zangief
    KOFXIII: Kim Team, Ikari Warriors, Hwa/98 Kyo/Raiden
  • The Final LionThe Final Lion Jean-Decaux Joined: Posts: 394
    stuff

    Because it's popular and they don't wanna be a part of the system!

    Probably because It's not really flashy and fast like marvel or SFxTekken, so it might seem boring to some people and I can understand that.

    I have some problems with the game though, I like it, but I think Seth is stupid, among some other things but nothing is perfect.
    Beast to Pray
  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 24,986
    - Input shortcuts
    - Skewed risk/reward ratio
    - Comeback mechanics
    - Mechanics that don't cater to some archetypes like charge and keepaway characters
    - Dumb hitboxes/hurtboxes
    - Full of glicthes and bugs
    - Slow-paced
    - Pointless buffs/nerfs throughout each iteration.
    - Crappy versions of old characters and characters that don't really serve a purpose
    - Viper
    - Seth

    Keep in mind these are not all my reasons, but the stuff I'm hearing and seeing.

    To add to this

    - Invincible backdashes
    - Dashes in general being shit
    - The way game scales damage
    - huge reversal window
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  • MWisk_2MWisk_2 Superduper Streamonster Joined: Posts: 1,042
    add to the list

    - long input buffer
    - big reversal window
    - the two above created mashed reversals (reversals in old games used to be an art for the reward they granted, now they are free and almost 100% safe with a small meter cost)
    - small blockstun = very few true blockstrings than c.lk/lp xN
    - 3frame DPs
    - The fact that strategies with little thought actually becomes viable (i.e. mashing).

    And bear in mind that for now SF4 is my main game. But I have a long history with fighters and some stuff in 4 still irks me to death. In the end SFIV is good for an entry point for players completely new to the genre, but definitely not the apex of FGs. While I welcome the new players, I would like to see them branch out a little into other FGs that will teach them other fundamental aspects of FGs. Like KOF (98/02), VSav, SamSho2, Garou, FFS, RBFF2, LB/LB2, GG, MVC2, XvSF, Arcana Hearts, 3S, ST etc... For this gen (2D) we have KOFXIII and the upcoming Skullgirls.
    New account, orig '06, same Brazilian monster. Shoutouts to Team Sp00ky! PSN: marcushardle
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  • kikimaru024kikimaru024 Mid-tier scrub Joined: Posts: 1,691
    -Floaty jumps
    -Input shortcuts (what's worst is that the shortcuts/buffers in other fighters like KOF don't cause any issues whatsoever)
    -The way even top players can get away with mashing SRK during a block/hit string because, fuck it.
    It'll beat a missed link, you can FADC it so it's safe (and GET frame advantage!) and if it works, free Ultra!
    Hell, that shit worked for Daigo (I distinctly remember Arturo calling him on that).

    Also, SFIV is ugly as sin, and if you can't see it you just don't have a good eye for aesthetics. And yes, that shit matters.

    And finally, Ono.
    Just... fuck Ono.
    Seimitsu & K-sticks > Sanwa JLF.
    This truth is not universally acknowledged.
  • M.D.M.D. digs older chicks Joined: Posts: 4,188
    I'm more interested in hearing why people think SF4 is a good series.
    "I'm deeeeeaaaadd!" - Williams
    UMVC3: Shehulk/Haggar/Thor
    SSF4: Seth, Gen, Zangief
    KOFXIII: Kim Team, Ikari Warriors, Hwa/98 Kyo/Raiden
  • NewGenNewGen aka SUPERDAVE Joined: Posts: 554
    the series devolved after 3S, it's a step backwards to what Gems Chen calls "Real Street Fighter," that's bs. It's more or less a rehash/remake of a 15 year old game and all of the said things above.
  • SpiderCrawlSpiderCrawl Shadaloo Deserter Joined: Posts: 452
    Only problem with SF4 is the huge reversal window. If it was 1 frame most of the games problems would go away.
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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,215
    What I dislike:

    1. Game doesn't suit charge characters as well, same with zoners.
    2. AA's trading is ridiculous sometimes.
    3. Reversal inputs are way too lenient.
    4. Focus attacks can be too good for some characters (ex. Fei)
    5. Some characters do not fit in SF, IMO (Fuerte, Viper).
    6. Many of the buffs and nerfs have made no sense.
    7. Comeback mechanics, generally long matches.
    8. Very heavy emphasis on option selects.
    9. The music (few exceptions).
    10. Taunting (serves no purpose other than to troll, give it a true benefit or remove it).
    11. The PP system.

    I think the game is decent, a few changes away from being very good. Despite my dislike for it I play it semi-often due to love for Street Fighter. To be fair, there are some things I really like about the game...

    1. Best roster ever, just remove Fuerte, Rufus, and Hakan
    2. Fundamentals are still there to a degree.
    3. The art style is cool, just needs to be a bit more "serious".
    4. Endless battle lobbies.
    5. Engine emphasizes high dexterity, can be good practice for that.
    6. Matchup knowledge is VERY extensive, almost too extensive.
    7. It has re-vitalized the fighting genre.

    This isn't the type of game I'd play to learn fundamentals, but its fun to play here and there. As much as I sometimes dislike the game I'm still happy it released. With that said, I hope the series returns to its roots for the next iteration. What I'd personally LOVE is a fine balance between rushdown and zoning, the way its supposed to be. And less mashing. I'd also remove any universal systems such as parries, focus attacks, and so forth. Characters should be played based ONLY on their tools, no universal ones. This is strictly my opinion.

    The game is decent, its a few changes away from being great.
  • John DoleJohn Dole Joined: Posts: 8
    - Input shortcuts
    - no air combo
    - no long combo string
    - no x-factor
    - too slow
    - They nerfed Yun </3
    [Kappa]
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    Because they don't like it? You're jumping in the rabbit hole. I've heard people complain about every fuckin mechanic SF4 has, down to shit that isn't even new to SF4.
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • vivaldi290vivaldi290 Joined: Posts: 627
    The real problem with the game is that there's nothing to do on wake-up vs. a large majority of the cast. I just got a knockdown vs. Viper as Rufus? Cool, now time to do my only viable strategy: a meaty cross up divekick. I just watched Ricky vs. Wolfkrone at Season's Beatings and every knockdown was a cross up... that's retarded.
  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,658
    Because they don't like it? You're jumping in the rabbit hole. I've heard people complain about every fuckin mechanic SF4 has, down to shit that isn't even new to SF4.
    And? FADC is like a roman cancel but while GG is an offensive game and the offense there is boosted by roman cancels in interesting ways, in SF4 the FADC just gives you more reasons to stop attacking and wait for a DP.
    It's not about the mechanics themselves but about how they are done and what's their effect at the end, combined with all the other rules.
    Sol can RC his dragon punch and get a full combo off of it, but do you see people in GG stop attacking and keep trying to bait it? Nope, since you are not scared of reversals in GG because of how the game is built. Problem solved.
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  • PurpleLemonadeGGPOPurpleLemonadeGGPO Joined: Posts: 1,336
    I was just wondering why so many players (who actively play the game) call SF4 a bad game? Mind you, I entered the FGC thanks to SF4 and the past few years have taught me a lot about FGs in general thanks to this series and I have more importantly enjoyed all the moments....

    Personally, I don't see what vets dislike about this series... so many people play it at a competitive level and spend countless hours in training mode developing safe jumps, combos, etc IMO the game isn't "derpy", there is a solid game of okizeme, footsie and zoning. The graphics...you get used to them just like practice.

    so what's the beef?
    Sorry if this thread has been made before..if it has feel free to delete although I would appreciate some thoughts from people who genuinely LIKE the game and those that DISLIKE it and state why.

    The okizeme is pretty derpy. There are also a lot of characters in the game built with anti-footsie/spacing tools, which take away from playing the more traditional characters. I mean it's funny how so many sf4 players go crazy about "vortexes" when it's the game play that sf2 players really hated (vega wall dive shenanigans).


    !

    he isn't the only one who feels that way.

    MOV from 3rd Strike, about 5 minutes 40 seconds in:




    juicebox from his twitter said:
    High-level play isn't fun for me anymore. Not for sf4. I feel a little weird, seeing as how I've poured the past few years into this game
    I feel like there isn't anything else to see or do within the game. I'm also getting tired of the 8-way guessing games.


    That means a lot considering he's a freaking abel main. 8 Way guessing games. Just do it. That's what SF4 is.
  • bbq saucebbq sauce Joined: Posts: 754
    My biggest beefs, personally -

    The walk speeds across the board feel gimped to shit. Walk in > walk out > bait wiff still exists, but, half the time you can't actually walk into the move you want to baits range because you get hit before you can walk out of it in time. @_@

    Though, I guess this counter balanced by the lack of hit boxes in characters' feet.. I'm sure if you've played even a moderate amount of this game, you've clearly seen your foot touch your opponent's foot via some form of sweep, or low forward or whatever yet no hit occurred.

    Auto correct reversals are stupid. To make a cross up hit ambiguously, it normally has to be done at a height that doesn't achieve safe jump timing.. In other words, if I keep my cross up DP 'safe' (using safe loosely, due to the fact some reversals are retardedly fast, to the point they can't be safe jumped) it's easy to see what side I'm on, and if I go for a more ambiguous set up it's just going to get DP'ed, because unlike before, you know longer have to guess out of a cross up when you can just input some stupid shit like Forward, down, down back, downfoward or whatever get a DP on both sides. If you have to guess to block a cross up, you should have to guess to DP it.

    The reversal window is absurd, I don't give a shit about a lenient input reader and input shortcuts, the fact that you can input your DP/Ultra/Super whenever and just get it out when you want it bad. Bad bad bad. Remember the video where Valle DP'ed the start up of a CC activation in Alpha 2? And everybody went buck fucking nuts, and you sat in front of you computer in awe because that was like, impossibly hard timing? Hell, do you remember when you would never have thought to input a dp in between a close strong and crouch strong that had a one frame gap, because you didn't trust your timing? Fuck that, if you have 50% meter, and you actually block between two strongs, you're playing the game wrong. Which leads into my next point.

    Blockstun, does it exist? I'm mot even talking about DP'ing out of shit, but simply just blockstun.. There's all sorts of retardedly advantageous frames on hits, yet on block you rarely see so much as a +3.

    Screen length.. it's huge, and it helps no form of playstyle aside from bad. Zoning characters have a hell of a lot more space they're forced to control, rushdown characters have a hell of a lot more distance to make up to get in. The only true benefactor is the player who wants to shift the control of the match.

    Ultras, I feel no need to explain this




    overall, it's not a terrible game IMO, a lot of the annoyances in the system are circumvented in various ways, but, the biggest things to me, are the shitty hitboxes, the gimped walk speeds, the auto correct system and Ultras.

    that and the simple fact that like a couple have said here, there are too many characters that just don't belong in SF

    edit: do make note, that while not terrible, I, personally, do not like the game.
    See, the problem is that you guys play Street Fighter solely for tournaments and competition with other players, but that is only one small aspect of fighting games.
    ~Playcircus
  • PurpleLemonadeGGPOPurpleLemonadeGGPO Joined: Posts: 1,336
    I don't agree with all of it but here's another interview with Steve Harrison, about 8 minutes in:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=358BiBl-wl4





    Anyway, moreover on MOV's complaint on the game, SF4 has good moments when it looks like this:


    but a lot of times it just looks like this:


    which is dumb. whoever gets the first knockdown wins.
  • pheraipherai LIVE FOREVER Joined: Posts: 11,879 mod
    And? FADC is like a roman cancel but while GG is an offensive game and the offense there is boosted by roman cancels in interesting ways, in SF4 the FADC just gives you more reasons to stop attacking and wait for a DP.
    It's not about the mechanics themselves but about how they are done and what's their effect at the end, combined with all the other rules.
    Sol can RC his dragon punch and get a full combo off of it, but do you see people in GG stop attacking and keep trying to bait it? Nope, since you are not scared of reversals in GG because of how the game is built. Problem solved.

    Yeah I get that much and agree 100%. I think pretty much all my problems with SF4 are the implementation of concepts and not the concepts themselves.

    I don't mean to discount the complaints, but inviting everyones gripes with SF4 is just bound to get the thought out shit buried in a pile of "Revenge Meter sux", "moves are too easy", "fadc ultra is cheap", etc. It seems like a lot of people are against many of the mechanics in SF4 in any form.

    Don't get me wrong I've got my own complaints about SF4 but I get the feeling theres a lot of bandwagon hate too.
    pherai gouki dated gwen stefani in HighSchool. Thats why today she likes all things Japan. smokin.gif
  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,658
    I don't mean to discount the complaints, but inviting everyones gripes with SF4 is just bound to get the thought out shit buried in a pile of "Revenge Meter sux", "moves are too easy", "fadc ultra is cheap", etc. It seems like a lot of people are against many of the mechanics in SF4 in any form.
    These are real problems, just explained very poorly, because people can "feel" the problems but can't put them into words very well. Were I to give you the good explanations for them you may end up agreeing.

    For example let's take the claim "moves are too easy". It's really not about how the input window for special move motions is bigger. (Unless talking about overlapping motions like jumping backwards, doing a qcf move and getting an SPD with Hakan, but this is not the issue talked about here.)

    What they are probably trying to say is this: (taken from the "why veterans hate SF4" article I'm working on)
    "Defensive actions are too easy in that they lack the need for commitment. In other games when you want to DP someone during his attack, you have to predict exactly where you think the hole is and commit to it by dropping your guard at that exact moment in order to do the motion. In sf4 the input can be spammed w/o the need to guess where the hole is, and you don't risk anything since you keep blocking automatically when there's no hole. In other games when you want to not get countered, you just need to mix your attack patterns. But in SF4 all burden is on the attacker, because in that game the only real solution to this is to drop your attack completely and wait for it. Which in turn makes for a very defensive game where momentum doesn't bear any value."

    As a 3S player you probably noticed people don't mash parries and dragon punches and supers while in hit stun or block stun. BECAUSE IT SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK IN OTHER GAMES THAN SF4.
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  • AustinSwaggersAustinSwaggers Well-Known Based God Joined: Posts: 111
    Cant wait to read some of the SRK thread White Knight Postings for this topic.

    To start of just wana say I loved SF4 all the way to Super. I came from a Alpha backround, didn't really get into SF3.

    OK,

    If you think there's nothing Shady about SF4 Game Mechanics it must of been your first fighting game.
    I second everything he said. Save me the time from typing alot.

    I even agree with what he said about Rufus and I mained him next to Bipson.

    I also feel Characters like Seth & Viper can exploit alot of the cast options to a hilarous degree. There not unbeatable but as much as I hate to use the word cheap.... well not gonna go there. Also, it's no just scrubs or noobs or whatever saying this. There's a number of top players that think the same way

    9:29 F. Champ Talks about Viper & What Japan thinks about the character

    "I spoke to Mago and he said Fuck Viper"
    "Tokido said Viper Scrub'

    Lastly, the bumpy ass road of uncompromising Nerfs & Buffs this game went through has turned me off away from the series.

    Funny, I dont play shotto's and I think the shottos Air Hurricane Kick Nerf was Stupid As Shit. Its been in all SF's and has never been a hectic problem.

    From there for me it stopped filling like SF.
    "Fighting online will always be too inconsistent. Don't Focus 100% of your training on it."
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,215
    Didn't Latif, the best Viper, come out and say she's not a true SF character? That testimony is "/thread" worthy.
  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,167
    You know, the 4f reversal window wouldn't be so much of a problem if the game wouldn't keep "rolling" it everytime you try to mash out uppercuts and what not. If the game would give you just a single chance to make your reversal and all subsequent mashing would be invalid and not counted towards it, it could kind of work. I hope this maked sense.

    But other than that, easy inputs/shortcuts, stupid nerfs, fadc, comeback mechanics, yadda yadda. Nobody won't care, remember or play SF4 10 years from not, when instead something like ST is forever :blush:
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • PurpleLemonadeGGPOPurpleLemonadeGGPO Joined: Posts: 1,336
    Didn't Latif, the best Viper, come out and say she's not a true SF character? That testimony is "/thread" worthy.

    I know wolfkrone plays viper because he feels it's a character that isn't required to play "street fighter" and she can do basically what she wants. A really good Abel player I talked to also said that he plays that character because he just likes rolling the dice and doing random 50/50s. Pretty much a lot of the problems with this game come down to the SF4 original characters.
  • MihaiMihai umeshoryu Joined: Posts: 1,697
    -reversal window
    -input buffer
    -backdash
    -focus attack
    -too much invincibility
    -armor
    -ultras
    -game is ugly
    -game is slow
    -game is floaty

    game is bad...but I think SFXT will be good cause it's making SF so stupid that it's coming full circle and becoming good (sorta like Marvel)

    edit:
    forgot:
    -terrible music
    -no blockstun
    -ez mode hit confirms
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,918
    The only problem I have with SFIV is mashing. But I welcome anyone to list games that didn't have any of these other problems or at least less than SFIV has. A popular phrase is "it doesn't feel like SF anymore." Sorry, that's bullshit...no matter how you look at it, the only character that suffers from this is Viper (because of her feints.) That doesn't mean she can do whatever she wants to do, either. For every top player that hates SFIV, you can find another that likes it. Finally, some people feel that variety is a problem? Why? One character is always going to be better than the rest unless the game is boring as hell. Might as well use that fact to your advantage and deal with the fact that some characters are going to be less "SF" oriented. They might end up dominant, but with this game, that doesn't mean you don't stand a chance. Kind of starting to sound like the Smash Brothers community...
    By the way, SF3 is the least "street fighter" game in the series. Doesn't mean that it's a bad game, but it's not SF when you compare it to the rest of the titles.

    And yeah, SFIV is ugly as fuck.

    edit #2454: Real talk, this game does have problems. But the way people are putting it...are not the actual problems. Like for example, people don't like Seth because he can exploit characters wake up so well. This is a problem not because Seth doesn't play SF, but because Seth hasn't had to respect other characters' wake up options since Super dropped the damage so low while keeping Seth's relatively the same (buffing it with AE, in fact.)
    tl;dr: One of the real problems is that the developers nerfed damage too much.

    I guess what I'm getting at...is if you don't like SFIV because it has "8 way guessing games".....you're either lying or wording your post wrong. Because SF2 had just as much bullshit, but the real difference was that you lost when you got knocked down.
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  • Fergus2k8Fergus2k8 Let's Rock! Joined: Posts: 2,642
    Seth
    SFIV - Poison/Rose/Sakura | SF5 - Karin
    TTT2 - Asuka + Julia/Jun/Miharu T7 - Asuka

  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    I'm more interested in hearing why people think SF4 is a good series.
    Cause it's better than 3S at least.
    Why.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    A popular phrase is "it doesn't feel like SF anymore." Sorry, that's bullshit...
    I am yet to meet someone who thinks that way who actually knows how to play SF2. With very few exceptions, 09'ers and such just do not understand SF2. They do not know how to play, they do not know what kind of blockstun to expect, what kind of recovery to expect, what kind of counters to fear. So of course they do not understand why SF4 does not play like SF.
  • Misty ChaosMisty Chaos You've Being Mistified! Joined: Posts: 174
    Face it, not matter what the developers do, people will ALWAYS find something to complain about. What if the game was just like SF2 in every way? We'd then have people complaining that its too much like SF2! People would complain about the graphics if they went the realism route, people would complain about execution if it was tighter, people would complain that the game is too fast if it was faster, people would complain if the game was too balanced, etc.

    Don't get me wrong, I think there really is issues with the game ( and I agree with Juicebox on several things as well ) but complaining about it all the time is not constructive.
    SFV: Larua
  • NephinelNephinel Jill - Mistress of Wyverns Joined: Posts: 705
    Street Fighter IV is what you get when you put Super Turbo, Alpha 2, and 3rd Strike in a blender, add shit and grounded-up Good & Plenty, and turn it on with the speed setting to "Low"

    it's just that you can get away with a lot more bullshit in Street Fighter IV than in the other SF games
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  • KumaOsoKumaOso Trust Your Instincts Joined: Posts: 3,752
    Didn't Latif, the best Viper, come out and say she's not a true SF character? That testimony is "/thread" worthy.
    What the heck does that even mean?
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  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 578
    I think everyone in their mind thinks they should be better than they really are. Seems like a symptom of the last decade or so, complain about the game rather than work on your problem areas. For instance, complaining about mashing? Still? Really? Some of you haven't picked up that your opponent mashing is incredibly exploitable yet? If this is the type of complaint you have, what you're really saying is you're not smart enough to adapt.

    People complaining about graphics are the worst. This should be the one genre that's not taken over by easily impressed graphic kids. God damn, give me gameplay in my fighters over graphics any day.
    Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    I'd also remove any universal systems such as parries, focus attacks, and so forth. Characters should be played based ONLY on their tools, no universal ones. This is strictly my opinion.
    So like, no Throws? No sweeps? And not every character should have 6 buttons for 6 different attacks?
    Why.
  • ric0ric0 Pretty cool Guy Joined: Posts: 466
    Street Fighter IV is what you get when you put Super Turbo, Alpha 2, and 3rd Strike in a blender, add shit and grounded-up Good & Plenty, and turn it on with the speed setting to "Low"

    it's just that you can get away with a lot more bullshit in Street Fighter IV than in the other SF games
    If you don't mind me asking, why good and plenty?
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  • ThirtyfourThirtyfour Wait Joined: Posts: 3,805
    What I like:
    • Dudley
    • Orange Dudley
    • Kokujin Dudley

    What I dont like:
    • Ridiculous invincibility on everything
    • Armor Canceled Ultras
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjvsCnWO9Qw
    SSF4: AE v.2012 Dudley Video Tutorial
  • NephinelNephinel Jill - Mistress of Wyverns Joined: Posts: 705
    If you don't mind me asking, why good and plenty?

    because Good & Plenty is yuck

    that's just me though, your mileage may vary
    This battle is about to explode. FIGHT!
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  • JozhearJozhear vega all day Joined: Posts: 7,394
    hah, I'd love to throw down a play by play on why I like street fighter but I'm pretty sure most of the people in this thread are just going to shout me down. it's worth trying anyway

    1. I think it looks great.
    2. Vega is in it =D
    3. I love the sense of impact from hitting with shit like stand roundhouse.
    4. Tons of characters.
    5. More slow and deliberate than KOFXIII, for that reason it can become incredibly tense.
    6. Great balance
    7. Big emphasis on footsies because of all the different buttons you can press.
    8. Great variety in character playstyles.
    9. Focus attacks are cool because they don't instantly invalidate most zoners like SF3 did with parry.
    10. It feels more 'fair' to me in general because you don't ever get the opportunity to blow someone up in 1 hit like every other fighting game out there. On top of that, it's pretty difficult to get a huge opening without winning a crucial mindgame. Most characters feel 'safe' most of the time and hence a lot of your damage comes from who can space their shit better.
    11. I don't mind mashing, if someone wants to reversal because they think you're gonna go in by all means they should be able to. It's more unsafe than it is safe, contrary to what all the scrubs think about FADC.
    12. People always say they don't like SF because nobody feels "Strong" but I feel that's a good thing. for the most part you're constantly working for your damage or mixup potential.
    13. I like the emphasis on neutral game more than rushdown.

    Most of people's complaints are valid but in general I know from experience that most people who talk shit about the popular fighting games can't ever be pleased with new releases anyway, nor were they ever pleased with old ones. They're salty to the bone.

    With that said there's reasons to like every fighting game.

    But yeah some of the comments in this thread are dumb. Zoners and charge characters aren't strong, or fail to capitalize on the SF4 system? Since when. They fucking own that shit, the only character that doesn't capitalize on the "system" is Hakan because it's impossible for him to retain momentum without making incredible sacrifices.
  • AceKillahAceKillah behind the scenes Joined: Posts: 15,811
    Ono.
    "Smash is the Walmart of fighting games. There's nothing inherently wrong with Walmart, but damned if I don't want 95% of its clientele to burn to death." -Vynce
  • ric0ric0 Pretty cool Guy Joined: Posts: 466
    I understand. I like licorice a lot, so I've never looked at good and plenty as yuck.
    "I always get rico and honzo confused because they're both like, little gingers... with a beret." -anon
  • CanadianDstryrCanadianDstryr The Mundane Cinderella Joined: Posts: 2,071
    Abel, Viper and Fuerte aren't SF characters. Their entire gameplan is, do dumb shit, maybe win matches. Their footsies game is practically nonexistant, Abel and Fuerte in particular basically want to score a knockdown and start setting mixups into more knockdowns with absolutely no other plan B. Claw and Gief, who you could argue have similar gameplans (at least ST Claw), at least play the rest of the game, Abel and Fuerte really don't. Viper doesn't even need a knockdown to start setting mixups, like, the fuck's with that?
    The IV series brought the term vortex back into the light thanks to Akuma and Ibuki, but with them, at least it feels like I'm fighting a complete character.
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,215
    So like, no Throws? No sweeps? And not every character should have 6 buttons for 6 different attacks?
    No. I gave the examples of focus attacks, parries, and things like that. What I'm saying is give me SF4 without the focus attacks.
    KumaOso wrote:
    What the heck does that even mean?
    Just that the best Viper player said she has no place in Street Fighter, so its probably more true than not. His testimony provides evidence that Viper does not belong in SF4. That's all I meant.
  • M.D.M.D. digs older chicks Joined: Posts: 4,188
    The only problem I have with SFIV is mashing. But I welcome anyone to list games that didn't have any of these other problems or at least less than SFIV has. A popular phrase is "it doesn't feel like SF anymore." Sorry, that's bullshit...no matter how you look at it, the only character that suffers from this is Viper (because of her feints.) That doesn't mean she can do whatever she wants to do, either. For every top player that hates SFIV, you can find another that likes it. Finally, some people feel that variety is a problem? Why? One character is always going to be better than the rest unless the game is boring as hell. Might as well use that fact to your advantage and deal with the fact that some characters are going to be less "SF" oriented. They might end up dominant, but with this game, that doesn't mean you don't stand a chance. Kind of starting to sound like the Smash Brothers community...

    Any game with no lenient input and reversal window makes mashing ineffective(unless you're playing Marvel or something); any game that came before SF4 has a less of a problem with mashing strategies.

    With Viper, it's not just her feints; It's also her SJC and execution requirements. It taints the fundamental aspect of the game. It would be like putting a Gulty Gear character in a KOF game. Noting wrong with variety as long as it stays within the context of the game.
    By the way, SF3 is the least "street fighter" game in the series. Doesn't mean that it's a bad game, but it's not SF when you compare it to the rest of the titles.

    And yeah, SFIV is ugly as fuck.

    edit #2454: Real talk, this game does have problems. But the way people are putting it...are not the actual problems. Like for example, people don't like Seth because he can exploit characters wake up so well. This is a problem not because Seth doesn't play SF, but because Seth hasn't had to respect other characters' wake up options since Super dropped the damage so low while keeping Seth's relatively the same (buffing it with AE, in fact.)
    tl;dr: One of the real problems is that the developers nerfed damage too much.

    I guess what I'm getting at...is if you don't like SFIV because it has "8 way guessing games".....you're either lying or wording your post wrong. Because SF2 had just as much bullshit, but the real difference was that you lost when you got knocked down.

    I disagree. People only say that about SF3 because of the parry, but the focus mechanic is much worse. It a free minimum risk offensive and defensive tool that requires no strict window to use, nullifies jumpins, pokes, and projectiles, as well as makes risky offensive maneuvers risk-free. That's a big change in direction from the SF2 and SF3 series. SF2 put emphasis on normals and at least in SF3, if you mistime a parry or use the wrong one, you're going to get punished hard.

    SF2 doesn't have any bullshit. Bullshit would imply something stupid happening that doesn't make any sense. In SF2, if you make bad moves and end up on your back, you probably already lost the round. There's nothing BS about that.
    "I'm deeeeeaaaadd!" - Williams
    UMVC3: Shehulk/Haggar/Thor
    SSF4: Seth, Gen, Zangief
    KOFXIII: Kim Team, Ikari Warriors, Hwa/98 Kyo/Raiden
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    No. I gave the examples of focus attacks, parries, and things like that.
    Yeah but every character having a Throw and every character having Jab,Strong,Fierce,Short,Forward,RH is part of the "universal" tools you seem to detest. I don't really see anything bad in every character having a Focus Attack over only a few having one?
    Why.
  • JozhearJozhear vega all day Joined: Posts: 7,394

    I disagree. People only say that about SF3 because of the parry, but the focus mechanic is much worse. It a free minimum risk offensive and defensive tool that requires no strict window to use, nullifies jumpins, pokes, and projectiles, as well as makes risky offensive maneuvers risk-free. That's a big change in direction from the SF2 and SF3 series. SF2 put emphasis on normals and at least in SF3, if you mistime a parry or use the wrong one, you're going to get punished hard.

    SF2 doesn't have any bullshit. Bullshit would imply something stupid happening that doesn't make any sense. In SF2, if you make bad moves and end up on your back, you probably already lost the round. There's nothing BS about that.

    come on man that's lolworthy

    focus is actually pretty shitty

    you just basically described the OPPOSITE of what focusing is.

    edit: Why does this goddamn site keep posting when i never actually press post button?

    anyway, this post is SO FULL of BS that I have such a hard time just ... finding a place to begin
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    Main reasons I dislike SF4: Incredibly slow walk speeds, low blockstun, huge reversal window, shit throws (at least for walking up and throwing) and autocorrect conspire to make footsie-based offense pretty damn weak in general. You can still do offense because of the myriad option selects, safejumps and vortexes, but this isn't the kind of offense I find satisfying; rather than actively engaging with your opponent and pressing an advantage on the ground, you wait for a knockdown so you can run absurdly overpowered set plays. Not only is the amount of knowledge required to do basic offense (frame traps, safejump setups off different knockdowns vs. different characters, OSes vs. different characters) absurd compared to the amount of knowledge required to do basic defense (late tech, autocorrect DP), but you're pretty much forced to do offense in a very specific way. There is no creativity because trying to get creative will result in you getting DPed. Then you have characters like Seth and Viper who can pretty much spazz out and do whatever while ignoring the ground game entirely, which is the kind of offensive play which nets by far the most rewards in SF4.
    I disagree. People only say that about SF3 because of the parry, but the focus mechanic is much worse. It a free minimum risk offensive and defensive tool that requires no strict window to use, nullifies jumpins, pokes, and projectiles, as well as makes risky offensive maneuvers risk-free. That's a big change in direction from the SF2 and SF3 series. SF2 put emphasis on normals and at least in SF3, if you mistime a parry or use the wrong one, you're going to get punished hard.

    No, in SF3 if you mistime a parry most of the time you crouch for a second or take a step forward which is unpunishable. If you're using parry a lot in mixup situations you are using it wrong; the key is to use it in footsie situations where the opponent is very unlikely (if they are even able) to hit you at the other height for the couple of frames that you attempt the parry.

    Focus attack is still dumb because at footsie range you can hold it and safely backdash away if your opponent doesn't press anything, but parry is much worse.
  • bbq saucebbq sauce Joined: Posts: 754
    I think everyone in their mind thinks they should be better than they really are. Seems like a symptom of the last decade or so, complain about the game rather than work on your problem areas. For instance, complaining about mashing? Still? Really? Some of you haven't picked up that your opponent mashing is incredibly exploitable yet? If this is the type of complaint you have, what you're really saying is you're not smart enough to adapt.

    People complaining about graphics are the worst. This should be the one genre that's not taken over by easily impressed graphic kids. God damn, give me gameplay in my fighters over graphics any day.
    plays melty blood, so I give a fuck less about graphics lol

    your first point however, I disagree. we all know how to beat people that mashing dp's whenever they're defending. You just do something simple like jab jab > block. DP baited into punish, hooray for you.

    it's the simple point that something so scrubby is actually a legitimate threat, that forces you to give up momentum after like 2 or 3 buttons, whereas in other games where timing and good prediction are actual factors, that allow for you to make a corner push string, or to set up counter hits etc. Defending yourself should not be so easy. Literally having two ex stocks means it's my turn to hit buttons whenever the other play has a gap in his string, because he has to bait me.
    See, the problem is that you guys play Street Fighter solely for tournaments and competition with other players, but that is only one small aspect of fighting games.
    ~Playcircus
  • JozhearJozhear vega all day Joined: Posts: 7,394
    here is what focus attack actually does

    1. it's not FREE, first of all. come on. compared to other footsie moves they have insanely slow start ups, tremendous recovery, and usually, the range isn't that great. They also only absorb one hit, provided that hit isn't a focus breaker or a reversal.

    2. If you focus and they didn't do anything, you could be fucked. again, how does this make focus free? In the Vega matchup, people like to focus randomly to try and absorb a poke and dash through on reaction safely. If they're out of range and I see them wind up a focus, I just wait and EX FBA. there's nothing they can do. it beats backdash, forward dash, and release.

    3. Some people are unsafe on hit if they do a level 1 focus and dash in. Otherwise, you can do a level 2, but your start up is obviously huge.

    4. Who cares if they randomly do a focus, you block, and they backdash? They're giving up space. this is street fighter after all. pretty important stuff. They want to keep focus backdashing, sweet, go find yourself a place in the corner where i'll murder you.

    The ONLY use focus has is to absorb one hit and counter it. You don't get to absorb all of them, like parry, and if you didn't succesfully absorb one, there's a very high chance of you getting punished, and it seldomly results in good offensive pressure if you do dash in anyways.

    this explains pretty clearly why focus isn't a common facet of high level play. It's a situational move that is severely matchup dependant. Not a gameplay mechanic that instantly makes characters like Remy totally useless.

    edit: Right, you also said focus blows up jump ins.

    1. No
    2. No
    3. No
    and
    4. No

    Even if you can succesfully trip guard people with focus consistently and get crumples, doesn't matter, empty jump grab is a hard counter to it

    for what it's worth though, no one can succesfully counter all jump ins with focus. if they do the jump in deep, they'll recover from the landing FAR sooner than your focus will hit them. you'll just get grabbed or worse. if they do a shallow jump in, then yes your chances are good. in this case, you're just mixing up with stuff like c. fp because they might have a worse chance of succeeding in this area anyway. again, how does this make focus free?

    As for focus being a good defensive maneuver, again, only absorbs one hit. C. mk fireball anyone? St. mp elbow? Scissor kicks? C. lp spam?
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,918
    Play SF with Fuerte and he can't win. Abel has to play SF with you before he can do dumb shit. Hakan can't play SF because he gets rolled over when the Hakan player touches the controller. Viper...well, free cancels are bullshit in my book. They could make it work by changing Seismo, I guess. But it's too late now (probably.)

    I would have much less of a problem with mashing if it only worked when you're knocked down. I just think it's bad design to give any characters an invincible, often cancelable 3-5f option to beat frame traps, neutral jumps, and bad backdashes without having to learn anything about the opponent's options. It's kind of hard to word this so I hope one understands.
    yeee boy time to be the worst i ever was...ONCE MORE!
    15Mbps upload isn't enough for SFV sometimes I guess? Or Comcast hates me. I dunno, sorry if stuff happens.
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    4. Who cares if they randomly do a focus, you block, and they backdash? They're giving up space. this is street fighter after all. pretty important stuff. They want to keep focus backdashing, sweet, go find yourself a place in the corner where i'll murder you.

    Right, except SF4 has the slowest walkspeeds and the hugest stages of any SF game. Go play ST and realise how boring it is to spend an eternity chasing a turtle to the corner in SF4. Also the reward if they guess right is far in excess of the tiny bit of space they give up for guessing wrong.
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