What makes SF4 a "bad" series?

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  • PurpleLemonadeGGPOPurpleLemonadeGGPO Joined: Posts: 1,336
    What the heck does that even mean?

    It's the reason why for some time, Gootecks was contemplating switching to Ibuki instead of using Rog. Oh and why Mike Ross hates that character.
  • JozhearJozhear vega all day Joined: Posts: 7,394
    Right, except SF4 has the slowest walkspeeds and the hugest stages of any SF game. Go play ST and realise how boring it is to spend an eternity chasing a turtle to the corner in SF4.
    Well that's fine, I can understand why you don't like it (I don't like it either normally, especially online where ppl feel the need to run away from you when YOU have a life lead), I'm just saying it isn't cheap or anything. I'd prefer if people did that.
  • Zack HoagieZack Hoagie Everything's coming up Milhouse. Joined: Posts: 19
    Keep in mind people really hated Third Strike for it's first five or so years too.
  • PurpleLemonadeGGPOPurpleLemonadeGGPO Joined: Posts: 1,336
    Play SF with Fuerte and he can't win. Abel has to play SF with you before he can do dumb shit. Hakan can't play SF because he gets rolled over when the Hakan player touches the controller. Viper...well, free cancels are bullshit in my book. They could make it work by changing Seismo, I guess. But it's too late now (probably.)

    free cancels are what's bullshit about viper?

    what exactly is your idea of playing SF?
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    Keep in mind people really hated Third Strike for it's first five or so years too.

    People still hate Third Strike. Justin and Ricky are on record as always having disliked it and they were two of the USA's top players. People seem to have this idea that people who vehemently disliked 3S in '99 turned around after Tokido scraped Justin in 2002 or after Daigo did the same in 2004 and said "oh never mind it's actually a good game" and that isn't really true.
  • Zack HoagieZack Hoagie Everything's coming up Milhouse. Joined: Posts: 19
    The hate (mainly) just comes from the fact that it's the biggest game in the FGC, and cause everyone plays it everyone has a chance to point out all the different little things wrong with it.
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    The hate mainly comes from that combined with the fact that there are so many things wrong with it. People like to draw this equivalency because all games of course have problems, but the problems people complain about with SF4 are of a far more fundamental nature than, say, RC Blanka in CvS2 or something (the major exception being parrying which is the most fundamental change to the classic SF system, but that is still just one thing not a dozen things like SF4). If you haven't played a prior game in the series at a competitive level you wouldn't understand.
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,918
    free cancels are what's bullshit about viper? lol

    what exactly is your idea of playing SF?
    Strong footsies, strong rush down, or strong zoning game. Your character beats El Fuerte. If you lost to El Fuerte, it's because you did something stupid and let him knock you down. And then you either got incredibly unlucky or you decided to take risks that didn't pay off.

    If your character has strong footsies, strong rush down, or a combination of zoning and strong footsies, your character will typically beat Abel or at least go even. Abel doesn't just magically get in for free.

    And how is this not what's bullshit about Viper? lol What do you have left when you take away Seismo chains, SJC, EX Seismo feint, and Thunder Knuckle feint? The ability to change your jump arc and damage? I guess that's still mid-tier in this game.

    I want to know what your idea of SF is. Because it sounds like you don't like playing it. My idea of SF is game plans, educated guesses, and rewards. El Fuerte isn't top tier because he has no reliable way of getting that reward...which is a pretty shitty reward in addition. All he can really rely on is educated guesses. Abel has a reeeally simple game plan, and he does dominate because of it. It's connect that fst.MK > your reward > go to town and get more rewards. Educated guesses get him big damage. But he does have bad MUs. Viper, with her free cancels, effectively neutralizes footsies...and that's why she doesn't fit in. She's top in my book because there is virtually no risk involved in doing this. Throw in big damage, insane rewards on educated guesses...well, she's practically a Marvel character. Seth might as well be a Marvel character too (not the greatest idea giving him a 3f command grab, design wise.)

    lololol because I don't sound like a sarcastic ass yet

    anyway every game is bad except SF2 and Vampire Savior. But half the SF2 revisions are bad and Vampire Savior is practically dead so we're all doomed
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  • RoseRose Filipinoman Joined: Posts: 1,790
    The real reason why people often condemn SF4 is because people have something to compare SF4 to.

    A lot of people back then seemed to hate SF3 as well, but then they ended up liking it; many of the people hating it were the people that were SF2 players.

    Once again, you can say "no one is going to remember SF4", but we are going to remember SF4. Simply for the fact that the fighting game scene was simply reborn thanks to it and how many years and majors we've put into the game itself.

    ST was uncomparable in its time period, there was little to nothing to compare it to. But SF4, there is definitely something to compare it to....

    I don't care if you hate SF4, Alpha, 3s... If you don't like it don't play it.

    Don't let the competitive scene dictate what games you play. Revitalize the games you love if you really want that game to played.

    SF4 is flawed, I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's by no means a bad game... Just... Different.
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  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 578
    plays melty blood, so I give a fuck less about graphics lol

    your first point however, I disagree. we all know how to beat people that mashing dp's whenever they're defending. You just do something simple like jab jab > block. DP baited into punish, hooray for you.

    it's the simple point that something so scrubby is actually a legitimate threat, that forces you to give up momentum after like 2 or 3 buttons, whereas in other games where timing and good prediction are actual factors, that allow for you to make a corner push string, or to set up counter hits etc. Defending yourself should not be so easy. Literally having two ex stocks means it's my turn to hit buttons whenever the other play has a gap in his string, because he has to bait me.

    Dude, just mold your game around that tactic if it's scrubby and effective. This is how meta games are developed. Something originally is very strong and everyone does it, eventually all your movements should take this into account. This is why I learned safe jumps, ambiguous srk proof cannon strikes and when to stop my combos & block. This is a failure to adjust, not an inherent flaw in the game.

    Srk mashing is really just one of a hundred tools there to utilize. It's not a particularly good strategy, especially when you face the guys that are extreme with it.

    On the flip side it's a strong tool so mediocre and newer players can have fun with each other without having to worry about the higher execution stuff for the hardcore players.

    Personally I think it's a beautiful balance this way because as you get better you should find SRK mashing to be less and less effective. Once you really dedicated time to the game, it should be a non issue.
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  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    Dude, just mold your game around that tactic if it's scrubby and effective. This is how meta games are developed. Something originally is very strong and everyone does it, eventually all your movements should take this into account. This is why I learned safe jumps, ambiguous srk proof cannon strikes and when to stop my combos & block. This is a failure to adjust, not an inherent flaw in the game.

    Srk mashing is really just one of a hundred tools there to utilize. It's not a particularly good strategy, especially when you face the guys that are extreme with it.

    On the flip side it's a strong tool so mediocre and newer players can have fun with each other without having to worry about the higher execution stuff for the hardcore players.

    Personally I think it's a beautiful balance this way because as you get better you should find SRK mashing to be less and less effective. Once you really dedicated time to the game, it should be a non issue.

    You are completely missing the point. He is not complaining that it's hard to deal with, he is complaining that he has to deal with it at all, when in other games it is a non-issue. The very fact that mashing DP is a legitimate tactic (and it absolutely is in certain situations; you see top players do it plenty) shapes the game even if you are totally adept at dealing with it. It's one of those things that contributes towards making SF4 the game it is.
  • HAVHAV iori respawn Joined: Posts: 9,503
    I think SF4 was a good series.

    Ono turned me off to it, with this last update though. 3 different versions of SSF4 in a year and a half. Boooooo.

    I do think the game was pretty well-designed. Most of the gripes go away the better you get at the game, IMO. People complaining about FADC don't understand just how devastating it can be to lose 2 bars on a failed attempt. Also, you can neutralize all that stuff. The idea that you can't pressure safely in most situations is just wrong.

    SF4 does stifle creativity is a sense though. The reality is that, in most situations, to minimize risk, you HAVE to attack in a certain way. You have to take the time to develop safe pressure, and once you do, there's no reason to do anything else, outside of pure mindfuckery. In all honesty though, most good games wittle down to that point. Optimal strategies present themselves and make others obsolete. Idk...

    All in all, I think SF4 is good. Not perfect, but good. The pace is really slow (which is a good and bad thing), and some of the characters are really stupid (I don't think Viper is one of those dumb characters, BTW.. I think she is super overrated.), but overall, I think it's good.
  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 578
    You are completely missing the point. He is not complaining that it's hard to deal with, he is complaining that he has to deal with it at all, when in other games it is a non-issue. The very fact that mashing DP is a legitimate tactic (and it absolutely is in certain situations; you see top players do it plenty) shapes the game even if you are totally adept at dealing with it.

    Would it be a problem if they each did 10 damage and didn't give any special knock downs? No, it's being complained about because of the perception that's it's strong.

    Now what I am saying is once you get to a certain level the risk-reward for the srk masher is ass to the point where most characters can take off 30-40% or get an oki knockdown from one good read.

    I still mash too but I pick my spots. Often times I'll do it more when I'm losing and getting desperate, I'll try to find an area where I've been watching my opponent be shaky with his normals. That's on him like it's on me if I'm constantly dropping normals. I don't see any room to complain here unless you just want to be a cry baby who refuses to get their links down.

    But that's pretty much how I'm reading this entire thread- people who never took the time to adjust and are still complaining about years old vanilla tactics that really aren't that hard to adapt against and the blue print to deal with them are all over the character forum and youtube videos.

    So I guess my main point here is if SRK mashing was something that was ruining your game it's easily something you can put just a little time into to make it a near non factor or something you can heavily use to your advantage. This idea of it being an overpowered tactic is silly.
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  • KayrohKayroh Joined: Posts: 881
    add to the list


    - 3frame DPs

    I like how you listed ST for fundementals, but you have an issue with 3 frame DPs.

    GTFO.
    "Fuck the Earth, Wind and Fire, Bitch. Fuck The Elements... And Captain Planet"
  • bbq saucebbq sauce Joined: Posts: 754
    Dude, just mold your game around that tactic if it's scrubby and effective. This is how meta games are developed. Something originally is very strong and everyone does it, eventually all your movements should take this into account. This is why I learned safe jumps, ambiguous srk proof cannon strikes and when to stop my combos & block. This is a failure to adjust, not an inherent flaw in the game.

    Srk mashing is really just one of a hundred tools there to utilize. It's not a particularly good strategy, especially when you face the guys that are extreme with it.

    On the flip side it's a strong tool so mediocre and newer players can have fun with each other without having to worry about the higher execution stuff for the hardcore players.

    Personally I think it's a beautiful balance this way because as you get better you should find SRK mashing to be less and less effective. Once you really dedicated time to the game, it should be a non issue.
    SRK mashing gets less effective, yes.

    But, the prevalence of of SRK fadc's as a momentum shift forces you to stop at certain points, because there's no reason not to do it, and risk/reward ends up in the favor of the defender.

    And because you have to stop, now there's multiple facets to what I can do, by having the meter. You reach a point wherein you are going to have to stop because of my DP, instead I just walk forward and jab you, now it's advantage: me. Or if I want to get away from you, and gain my ground back, I can back dash, or I could get really ballsy and straight up throw you. Sure, this is frame-trap bait. But, because the reward of my DP fadc is wayy better than the reward of your frame trap, you, as the attacker are at MY mercy, you're attacking, but you're playing my game. That's stupid.

    Granted, the DP in itself creates this situation on wake up in every game, but, there's a lot more advantage to a knockdown situation, opposed to SF4 where every pressure situation leads to it.

    I understand that the systems of any game will mold into a meta game, and obviously one cannot expect them to always be the same between every game, but, the way the cards fall in SF4 it makes a very fundamentally flawed metagame.
    See, the problem is that you guys play Street Fighter solely for tournaments and competition with other players, but that is only one small aspect of fighting games.
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  • M.D.M.D. digs older chicks Joined: Posts: 4,188
    here is what focus attack actually does

    1. it's not FREE, first of all. come on. compared to other footsie moves they have insanely slow start ups, tremendous recovery, and usually, the range isn't that great. They also only absorb one hit, provided that hit isn't a focus breaker or a reversal.

    2. If you focus and they didn't do anything, you could be fucked. again, how does this make focus free? In the Vega matchup, people like to focus randomly to try and absorb a poke and dash through on reaction safely. If they're out of range and I see them wind up a focus, I just wait and EX FBA. there's nothing they can do. it beats backdash, forward dash, and release.

    3. Some people are unsafe on hit if they do a level 1 focus and dash in. Otherwise, you can do a level 2, but your start up is obviously huge.

    4. Who cares if they randomly do a focus, you block, and they backdash? They're giving up space. this is street fighter after all. pretty important stuff. They want to keep focus backdashing, sweet, go find yourself a place in the corner where i'll murder you.

    The ONLY use focus has is to absorb one hit and counter it. You don't get to absorb all of them, like parry, and if you didn't succesfully absorb one, there's a very high chance of you getting punished, and it seldomly results in good offensive pressure if you do dash in anyways.

    this explains pretty clearly why focus isn't a common facet of high level play. It's a situational move that is severely matchup dependant. Not a gameplay mechanic that instantly makes characters like Remy totally useless.


    1. Subjective. Not every focus attack is the same.

    2. It's free as in it doesn't cost anything. It doesn't require meter and you don't have to anticipate an attack to utilize it. Of course I'm not gonna throw it out to bait Vega's FBA, but I can use it to absorb a missed Wall dive throw and get a crumple.

    3. Some are, and some aren't. Also you don't have to dash in after the focus absorb; you can dash out.

    4. So you're dismissing the benefits of the focus absorb because the penalty is loss of space. Guess that makes focus absorb useless then cause I give up my position.

    The point of my post was to shed some light on what the focus mechanics does to the game in general, not nitpick through matchup specific situations. Some characters are shafted by the mechanic while others benefit greatly from it. It's not just focus attacks either; the FADC also comes into play when talking about the focus mechanic.

    That's a pretty shaky argument for talking trash.
    No, in SF3 if you mistime a parry most of the time you crouch for a second or take a step forward which is unpunishable. If you're using parry a lot in mixup situations you are using it wrong; the key is to use it in footsie situations where the opponent is very unlikely (if they are even able) to hit you at the other height for the couple of frames that you attempt the parry.

    Focus attack is still dumb because at footsie range you can hold it and safely backdash away if your opponent doesn't press anything, but parry is much worse.

    Did not know that. I admit to not being a pro with the parry system. Do you really think it's worse than focus though? You gotta practice the parry and the timing between multiple hits even if you're successful. With focus though, you can absorb, get some revenge meter, take your little damage and backdash to safety. Feilong and Seth are the big offenders, while others like Viper and Ken are not so much.
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  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    Mashing DP is never a non-factor in SF4. It does sound like a very 2009 complaint but just because people don't get hit by it a lot any more doesn't mean it isn't still a massive influence on how you're forced to play the game. In fact people don't get hit by it a lot any more precisely because they have changed the way they play to account for it. Some people don't like the way this forces you to play. You sound like the people arguing against Viscant's complaints re: parrying with "well if parrying is so good why doesn't everyone parry everything?"
  • NyoronoruNyoronoru Vocaloid DLC Joined: Posts: 1,647
    1) Dashes are terrible. The reason why this is the case is so that you can't use a Focus Attack as a moving parry like Hakan (Hakan needs oil, so it's OK). So the game is already sluggish at this point.
    2) Walkspeed is bad. This is to prevent you from just walking up and throwing slow Focus Attacks (only a few chars can do this). This makes the game already very boring.
    3) Reversal window is massive and invincible backdashes. These are to prevent you from doing Level 3 Focus Attacks on the opponent's wakeup over and over again if they don't have a reversal that allows them to escape it, or so they don't have to guess so much against the potential mixup of an unblockable. So wakeup situations have to be dealt with extremely carefully.
    4) Stages are huge. This is just a bad design decision.
    5) Jumps are fully lower-body invincible on the second frame (when they are airborne). This forces you to go high meaty, which sucks because....
    6) Variable wakeup times. Combine this with invincible backdashes, huge reversal windows and bizarre jump timings basically means the only characters that can stage real offensive pressure are ones that have incredibly good crossups/dive kicks that negate all these things. Your regular grounded offensive character is doomed in this system.

    Street Fighter 4 just doesn't have the pull of a fun fighting game. This is probably because the game is based around wakeup offense and not grounded offense.
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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,212
    A big problem with focus attacks is that, despite being universal, some characters obviously have superior focus attacks to others. Should have been even across the board.
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    A big problem with focus attacks is that, despite being universal, some characters obviously have superior focus attacks to others. Should have been even across the board.
    First you hate on universal mechs and then you state they shouldn't be different but even? And completly disregard that every character has a different throw (as well as different buttons obviously), too?
    Why.
  • lunch_hotdogslunch_hotdogs Disliked member Joined: Posts: 828
    Honestly...
    I hate SF4... but it has little to do with the game itself....
    I can't stand the SF4 elitists. People call OGs elitist and toss that term around like a salad, but meanwhile they fail to realize that they're being elitist in their own right as well. SF2 and SF3 had its moments where it somewhat segregated the community a bit. Very few people that LOVE one of those games LOVES the other as well, but we have a mutual respect for each other. SF4 blatantly split the community up beyond repair, mostly because of, as I see it:
    * Online / Ranked especially
    * Elitist newbies coming in with the attitude that the OGs don't know anything other than old games.
    * Elitist OGs coming back from the dead, complaining that newbies don't know anything about "real fighting games"
    * Newbies can't transition to older games, even if they WANT to learn them because of the easy execution requirement of SF4.
    * OGs losing their execution because they play SF4 for a while and get used to easy mode SF4.
    * then... take all that into consideration and you get BICKERING... dramatic BICKERING between the two, separating people up.

    Street Fighter's become more of a spectacle than I would like it to be, but I'm one person and am not going to change the way people perceive fighters overall.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,615
    SRK mashing gets less effective, yes.

    But, the prevalence of of SRK fadc's as a momentum shift forces you to stop at certain points, because there's no reason not to do it, and risk/reward ends up in the favor of the defender.

    And because you have to stop, now there's multiple facets to what I can do, by having the meter. You reach a point wherein you are going to have to stop because of my DP, instead I just walk forward and jab you, now it's advantage: me. Or if I want to get away from you, and gain my ground back, I can back dash, or I could get really ballsy and straight up throw you. Sure, this is frame-trap bait. But, because the reward of my DP fadc is wayy better than the reward of your frame trap, you, as the attacker are at MY mercy, you're attacking, but you're playing my game. That's stupid.

    Granted, the DP in itself creates this situation on wake up in every game, but, there's a lot more advantage to a knockdown situation, opposed to SF4 where every pressure situation leads to it.

    I understand that the systems of any game will mold into a meta game, and obviously one cannot expect them to always be the same between every game, but, the way the cards fall in SF4 it makes a very fundamentally flawed metagame.

    Don't agree with much of this... "there's no reason not to DP FADC" is not really true at all, since losing 2 (or 3) meters is pretty detrimental to a lot of characters, especially if it will be obviously blocked. Most people have adjusted their pressure to be safe from reversal DPs (delayed jabs, delayed throw techs, etc). Eventually you just condition people that DP is a bad idea, unless they want to blow their meter load on something that is unlikely to work.

    I also don't agree that the DP reward is greater than the frame trap reward. Some characters get huge damage off frame traps (ultra, in some cases!), so your one-shot 100 damage DP + 300 damage ultra (once per round) does not overcome the ever-present threat of me doing 300 damage, 600 stun meterless by counterhitting you with a fierce (any time per round). The people who can't do this type of damage will probably be in the mid 250s range and set up a safe jump (ie, Ryu) for more "expected" damage in the long run.

    I understand that sometimes it's frustrating to try and bait DP, but you end up blocking wakeup mash jab, or watch them backdash. I just think the reward is still in the offense's favor. If you do some OS that catches backdash, you gain good damage and positioning (reward better than 100 damage DP). If you counterhit the jab, you gain a fat combo and probably a safe jump (reward better than 100 damage DP). If you block the DP, you get fat damage again. Sometimes you eat 100 damage DP because you guessed wrong, and sometimes he has ultra and 2 meters. Meh? I was playing against a Yun player (as Cody) who would always do *something* on wakeup... sometimes even just wakeup low strong. Seems like I guessed 5 times in a row wrong, eating DPs or having to give up advantage and block the strong when trying to bait DP. Lost probably 400 damage doing this. Finally guessed right and counterhit a wakeup low strong with low fierce xx EX rocks for like 600 damage and won the round. I understand Cody is an exceptional case in terms of damage off counterhits, but you could make a case like this for a lot of characters.

    Lastly, you often see pros doing mash DP, there's no debate about that, but I basically see it as "intent to reversal". They decided my block string wasn't going to be tight and they declared an intent to reversal. Sometimes it works, but I think it works significantly less than a lot of people think it does (the psychological frustration getting hit by DP probably means we remember all the times we get hit by it, but not all the times we get all that damage back on a bait). Daigo in particular gave away a lot of rounds in Topanga League because he DPed a lot... he actually looked kind of goofy in some spots.
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  • blockheadblockhead Joined: Posts: 243
    I don't hate 4 I would just rather play KOF XIII, 3s or ST.
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  • HAVHAV iori respawn Joined: Posts: 9,503
    KOF 13 really is the shit though.
  • blockheadblockhead Joined: Posts: 243
    KOF 13 really is the shit though.
    For real, I'm playing it now.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,615
    As for my opinion on this topic... I dunno. I'm obviously an apologist for SF4, but I understand that some people won't like the game's style, and that's cool. There are lots of other games these days, go find a game you enjoy and play that. I just wish people wouldn't be so contradictory with their reasons for disliking SF4.

    Saying stuff like stages should be a lot smaller (something that is clearly disadvantageous for zoners) and then saying zoning should be made better. Saying wakeup mash DP is a viable strategy, and then complaining about wakeup strategies designed to BEAT that exact thing consistently being too prevalent.

    I also think the SF4 team has done a respectable job decreasing the things that plagued Vanilla a bit... high damage from ultra off trades (making comeback factor "for free" less of an issue), the balance of the game, giving characters interesting tools, etc. No game is perfect but IMO it's clear that the SF4 team was actually doing their best within the framework of the game to improve it with each release (Yun aside).

    I can see how Ono can rub people the wrong way... he's just doing PR stunts though. He has a team of dozens of people working with him on all the game systems (and in some documented instances from the design blogs, overriding him on game decisions), so he's not responsible for everything wrong with SF4.
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  • MWisk_2MWisk_2 Superduper Streamonster Joined: Posts: 1,042
    I like how you listed ST for fundementals, but you have an issue with 3 frame DPs.

    GTFO.

    Dude... one of those very fundamentals is how to apply safe jumps in order to take maximum advantage out of a supposedly favorably situation for the attacker, he got a knockdown. So safe jumps are one of the FGs fundamentals... you get a chance to attack and apply pressure that the knocked down opponent has to respect in order to properly escape...

    Now, here's what happens with SFIV's 3 frame DPs... if the minimum recovery for a jumping attack is 4 frames... do the math...
    You cannot safe jump 3frame DPs in this game. It doesn't work, the very concept of safe jumping is invalid. You lose your attack, you can't keep your pressure. In fact you have to fear the knocked down opponent, the one who messed up in the first place, it would be even a lil more acceptable if you didn't add the fact that FADC makes this move safe.

    3 frame DPs invalid safe jumps, you need to empty jump and bait them, therefore losing your earned pressure and actually putting yourself in a mixup situation. Which is one of the things that contribute to make SFIV a more defensive game.

    Beware what you GTFO to...
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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,212
    First you hate on universal mechs and then you state they shouldn't be different but even? And completly disregard that every character has a different throw (as well as different buttons obviously), too?
    If they absolutely have to be included, then they should be even, yes. Reason being that the focus attack can be very powerful when used with the right character. Cody and Fei-Long, for example, have great focus attacks. Hell, focus attacks have all but eliminated long-range projectiles. You get to build "free" meter, sure, but at the cost of giving your opponent ultra.
  • pootnanniespootnannies addicted to bad things Joined: Posts: 3,052
    You know, the 4f reversal window wouldn't be so much of a problem if the game wouldn't keep "rolling" it everytime you try to mash out uppercuts and what not. If the game would give you just a single chance to make your reversal and all subsequent mashing would be invalid and not counted towards it, it could kind of work. I hope this maked sense.

    But other than that, easy inputs/shortcuts, stupid nerfs, fadc, comeback mechanics, yadda yadda. Nobody won't care, remember or play SF4 10 years from not, when instead something like ST is forever :blush:
    it's actually 5 frames and i agree it wouldn't be a big deal if you mashed during that period nothing would come out.

    well there are so many reasons to love and hate sf4 that i'm just going to name the obvious.
    HATE:
    -5frame reversals that allow the dp shortcut.
    -reversal FADC on block. it takes away wakeup mind games like simply blocking and baiting reversals. what's the point now?
    -vortexes. they are hella stupid.
    -invincible backdashes. a lot of people don't seem to understand why this is so stupid. maybe if it was character dependent i wouldn't mind so much but you have to understand there are already way too many ways to kill offense after a knockdown in this game and this is one of the major ones. it forces you to use the very annoying OS's in the game that take out any good reads and guessing which helps the game be more exciting. OS are not exciting because they just happen and nobody had to take a big risk in using them.
    -4 frame landing buffer for OS.
    -art style is hit and miss. looks mostly like a copy paste for almost every character.
    -short block stun. with huge reversal windows and easy mash dp motions this is a huge problem to keep pressure.
    -dizzies are ass in this game. seriously. at least reset damage scaling when a dizzy occurs mid combo.
    -supers are almost useless and meter builds way to slow for them while ultras build way too fast.
    -damage is too low and ultras have long animations that actually take time off the clock. BORING

    LOVE:
    -flashy looking combos.
    -personally i like the FADC mechanic in combos but charge characters can't really take advantage of them.
    -plinking. going to someone else's house and playing on their laggy tv or going to a tournament with faster/slower response time monitors can be annoying. plinking kind of helps here so that you can still get down some difficult links even if you're not 100% used to the response time of the setup you're on. this can also be said of online play.
    -many characters and different styles to choose from. this can also be a bad thing but i'll just let it go.
    -art style is more cartoon like and not realistic. i'm glad they went this route even though the models are somewhat ugly in many areas.
    -some good animation here and there and less mocap animations.
    -great looking particle effects imo.
    -modding for the pc version is getting better and better.
    -somewhat easier entry level for beginners.
    -the game is something new and not sf2 or sf3. it's its own game with its own vibe, good or bad. unfortunately the game is too slow and the stuff from sf2 is boring in this game but it has some new things to learn to make it a new experience for sf fans.
    -i don't think it revitalized the fighting game genre but it certainly helped put the spot light back on it.

    some people are going to love sf4 no matter what. all sf games i can think of had some major bullshit but people learned to love the games anyways. sf4 isn't my cup of tea but i can see why some people really like it and others really hate it. if you like defensive play then you might like sf4 more but if you're into mixups and mindgames then you're going to get frustrated with it. to each his own i guess.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,615
    If they absolutely have to be included, then they should be even, yes. Reason being that the focus attack can be very powerful when used with the right character. Cody and Fei-Long, for example, have great focus attacks. Hell, focus attacks have all but eliminated long-range projectiles. You get to build "free" meter, sure, but at the cost of giving your opponent ultra.

    Wow.

    So *that's* what I did wrong vs Mago's Sagat at Canada Cup. I didn't focus enough tiger shots!

    Also, something is wrong with giving someone a better focus attack than someone else? What's the difference between... giving Ryu a better sweep than someone else? Use your character's tools, sometimes that involves focus and sometimes it doesn't. Lots of characters are solid in this game that don't use focus much (Balrog, eg). I guess all ... projectiles should be the same? All throw ranges? Man, why am I even responding seriously to this.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,615
    if you like defensive play then you might like sf4 more but if you're into mixups and mindgames then you're going to get frustrated with it. to each his own i guess.

    You listed vortexes on your list of things you hate about the game... don't you think this somewhat scratches the mixup itch some people have? Since AE, defensive characters have had quite a few more difficult matchups with strong offensive characters. I think that defensive play in SF4 is actually pretty difficult now, and it's probably more frustrating (certainly, it's a lot harder) to be a defensive player these days.
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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,212
    Wow.

    So *that's* what I did wrong vs Mago's Sagat at Canada Cup. I didn't focus enough tiger shots!

    Also, something is wrong with giving someone a better focus attack than someone else? What's the difference between... giving Ryu a better sweep than someone else? Use your character's tools, sometimes that involves focus and sometimes it doesn't. Lots of characters are solid in this game that don't use focus much (Balrog, eg). I guess all ... projectiles should be the same? All throw ranges? Man, why am I even responding seriously to this.
    Fireballs at long-range give free ultra. Obviously you have to avoid EX projectiles but at long range you have enough time to react properly. Focus attacks can also rape certain footsie attacks, such as Akuma's sweep when he doesn't have U1. Guess right and focus? Great, maximum damage combo! For Fei-Long, that means the opponent is already in the corner. The consequence for a poorly-timed focus is not the same as that of, say, a poorly-timed SF3 parry. There is much more wiggle room with FA's. Its completely different from throw ranges and the like. The mechanic is exclusive to SF4, its not a staple of the SF franchise.

    Also, responding to your post below...
    You're right: its quite hard sometimes to be a defensive player in SF4. Part of that has to do with...FOCUS ATTACKS. Hence why characters like Fei-Long dominate, notwithstanding his amazing rekka.

    Respond if you want, man, I'm not forcing you to.
  • pootnanniespootnannies addicted to bad things Joined: Posts: 3,052
    Keep in mind SRK really hated Third Strike for it's first five or so years too.
    fixed.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,615
    Fireballs at long-range give free ultra. Obviously you have to avoid EX projectiles but at long range you have enough time to react properly. Focus attacks can also rape certain footsie attacks, such as Akuma's sweep when he doesn't have U1. Guess right and focus? Great, maximum damage combo! For Fei-Long, that means the opponent is already in the corner. The consequence for a poorly-timed focus is not the same as that of, say, a poorly-timed SF3 parry. There is much more wiggle room with FA's. Its completely different from throw ranges and the like. The mechanic is exclusive to SF4, its not a staple of the SF franchise.

    Also, responding to your post below...
    You're right: its quite hard sometimes to be a defensive player in SF4. Part of that has to do with...FOCUS ATTACKS. Hence why characters like Fei-Long dominate, notwithstanding his amazing rekka.

    Every time you focus a projectile at max range, you put yourself at risk for losing a huge chunk of damage if you mess up. And it's not really that unlikely that you'll mess up. I bet you if you were to run stats on matches involving good Sagats, you'd see less than 10% of tiger shots being focused. It doesn't "nullify" projectiles at all. You can neutral jump or slide/duck under shots, but you can do this just fine in ST too, a game where zoning is strong.

    I just don't get where you're getting that fireball zoning is free to focus attacks. I haven't personally played in, nor ever seen, a match where this is the case. I've also never seen anybody playing seriously focus more than 2 or 3 fireballs in a row. It's just too risky.

    Don't you think dive kicks, certain safe on block specials, and the inability for someone like Dhalsim to meaningfully punish a lot of random stuff have a bigger effect on those difficult matches? I don't think focus attacks have really any bearing, to be honest (with the possible exception of Fei vs Dhalsim, and even then...). Cody's so-called amazing focus attack doesn't really do a whole lot for him vs zoners, and typically focusing full or mid-screen vs Dhalsim means you tend to take more damage than you give (plus you lose positioning each time you get hit out of focus).
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  • pootnanniespootnannies addicted to bad things Joined: Posts: 3,052
    You listed vortexes on your list of things you hate about the game... don't you think this somewhat scratches the mixup itch some people have? Since AE, defensive characters have had quite a few more difficult matchups with strong offensive characters. I think that defensive play in SF4 is actually pretty difficult now, and it's probably more frustrating (certainly, it's a lot harder) to be a defensive player these days.

    yeah it's technically a mixup, you're right about that, but it's rather repetitive and boring (imo). gouken has shit defensive options and gets shut down by obvious vortexes from akuma because of all his option-selects. i believe it's the same with guile in that matchup but not as bad.
    in previous sf games you didn't always have to come in with a safe jump cross up after a hard knockdown because other options from the ground were also quite viable and a little less risky. with vortex it's too autopilot and is always the best option for those characters who have them. the only risk is if you mistime it which for most isn't that hard. if vortexes carried more risk to do then it wouldn't be so stupid but then again there would be less momentum. if vortexes are exciting for some people then more power to them but for me it's not. i'm not saying vortexes are stupid as a fact but just how i feel about them. i should have added imo after that statement.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,615
    yeah it's technically a mixup, you're right about that, but it's rather repetitive and boring (imo). gouken has shit defensive options and gets shut down by obvious vortexes from akuma because of all his option-selects. i believe it's the same with guile in that matchup but not as bad.
    in previous sf games you didn't always have to come in with a safe jump cross up after a hard knockdown because other options from the ground were also quite viable and a little less risky. with vortex it's too autopilot and is always the best option for those characters who have them. the only risk is if you mistime it which for most isn't that hard. if vortexes carried more risk to do then it wouldn't be so stupid but then again there would be less momentum. if vortexes are exciting for some people then more power to them but for me it's not. i'm not saying vortexes are stupid as a fact but just how i feel about them. i should have added imo after that statement.

    I understand that some people may dislike vortexes. It's not as big of a deal to me, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't for other people.

    I guess my response to your argument is that vortexes (with all those option selects) are just designed to get people to try and block. Once you block the vortex and you pressed 50 extra buttons to make sure they didn't reversal or backdash, you now have them in block stun with frame advantage... and NOW you can run these meaningful mixups from the ground that you mention... throw mixups, frame traps, walk back walk forward mixups, overheads, etc. All these options still exist in the series, you just have to first block the initial vortex to see them (which is varying degrees of difficulty). If you're watching a match between Akuma and a person with good defense, you tend to see a ton of creative non-vortex offense, because the vortex is such a set play that it can be predicted and reacted to a little more easily than what comes after it's blocked.

    But it requires a pretty good amount of game knowledge to block a vortex, and at mid-level play (and online) it's really hard, so the game can degenerate into what you describe at times. IMO, that's why watching high-level SF4 is much more interesting. The vortex being blocked is much more common, which forces people to be more creative... what cool tricks do you have when your opponent is in block stun and you're on the ground?
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  • blockheadblockhead Joined: Posts: 243
    I don't like that SF4 tries so hard to appeal to new players with input shortcuts and large reversal windows. They should have to take their losses and learn inputs correctly like everyone else.
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  • thephenomenalonethephenomenalone Joined: Posts: 580
    the series devolved after 3S, it's a step backwards to what Gems Chen calls "Real Street Fighter," that's bs. It's more or less a rehash/remake of a 15 year old game and all of the said things above.
    So I guess I'm not the only person who doesn't find Chen funny and would love to punch him in the mouth to get him to shutup?
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  • pootnanniespootnannies addicted to bad things Joined: Posts: 3,052
    I understand that some people may dislike vortexes. It's not as big of a deal to me, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't for other people.

    I guess my response to your argument is that vortexes (with all those option selects) are just designed to get people to try and block. Once you block the vortex and you pressed 50 extra buttons to make sure they didn't reversal or backdash, you now have them in block stun with frame advantage... and NOW you can run these meaningful mixups from the ground that you mention... throw mixups, frame traps, walk back walk forward mixups, overheads, etc. All these options still exist in the series, you just have to first block the initial vortex to see them (which is varying degrees of difficulty). If you're watching a match between Akuma and a person with good defense, you tend to see a ton of creative non-vortex offense, because the vortex is such a set play that it can be predicted and reacted to a little more easily than what comes after it's blocked.

    But it requires a pretty good amount of game knowledge to block a vortex, and at mid-level play (and online) it's really hard, so the game can degenerate into what you describe at times.

    i like how you defend sf4 and don't fall in with the crowd. i know what it's like to have a bunch of people shit on the game you like but i can never keep my cool when arguing with them.
    as for your explanation about vortexes still leading to viable mixups after they've been thwarted, yeah you're right but it's still a little redundant that you have to go through all that just because of the way backdashes work in this game. it's a lot more work to put in just to have the same result and it's a little artificial compared to games in the past. it's just not necessary to have and actually makes the game more difficult and not in an interesting way for me.
    coming from 3rd strike as the first sf game i actually took seriously, i'm going to be biased regardless. even though my second favorite sf game is hyper fighting and plays almost nothing like 3s, i still found a lot of interest in the game. i can't say the same about sf4 but i will say i'd rather play sf4 than most other games out there. it still scratches that fighting game itch and it has some great qualities. personally i think they could have done a lot more with the games system with every sf4 iteration but they mostly messed around with character balance. i can respect the game's director for wanting to keep his original vision for the game intact but i think the game could have had more potential and still feel like sf4 for those who like it.
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  • HAVHAV iori respawn Joined: Posts: 9,503
    Input shortcuts and reversal window leniency don't bother me at all. I never make any move, in any game, under the belief that my opponent can't do a move (outside of fighting Geese in CvS2.... you gotta show me the Storm before I respect it). Helping players get the moves they want, when they want them means nothing to me. Good players will get their moves out anyway, so who really cares?

    Input leniency only bugs me when I get moves out accidentally, because the window is so long. Outside of that, it's really not a big deal.
  • gaemmkgaemmk Joined: Posts: 170
    i used to hate ssf4 too, but i think it's the most logical fg ever made. note: i didn't say the best, just the most logical. when people complain or ask for stuff for their character they should consider the effect. now, i will say this, a.e. fei long, yun, and yang were stupid and should have never happened, but capcom changed it. the only problem i have with sf4 is the safe corner. i've never played a fg with safe corners like sf4. it used to be that you didn't want to go into a corner because you would die, but not in sf4. the jumping allows idiots to jump over and over and you can't do anything to stop them unless your character can jump really high. essentially, sf4 lets people off the hook more than old games, but i just deal with it by attacking when i know i have position, frame adv, and match tempo, and playing totally lame if i move you to the corner or if you are a masher. besides that, it's all an educated guessing game: pattern recognition (of your opponent and yourself), pattern baiting, baiting, and old fashioned mind games.
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    I think it's pretty hard to argue that SF4 is a bad game for competition. It obviously rewards skill. I say this to distance myself from the absurd complaints of someone like Tataki whose understanding of the game apparently hasn't evolved since 2009. The problem I have is I don't really respect or find interesting some of the skills it rewards. The capacity to really rock someone with offensive ground-based play is weakened. To me, the ability to win with a character like Viper or Seth is 1. not as hard to do as winning with a footsie-oriented character (tiers notwithstanding) and 2. not the kind of skill an SF game should be testing to begin with. On top of that the game is boring, due to problems with speed and creativity of offense mentioned earlier. None of these things make it a bad game for competition though, but if the game isn't fun first and foremost that doesn't really matter.
  • Fresh LettuceFresh Lettuce Perfect for Salad Joined: Posts: 159
    I find it hysterical that people are mad about lenient inputs. Are you so insecure in your ability to master the game that if some guy can do a shoryuken in your blockstring, suddenly your skills are crippled? The only time it may edge out a win is if you're honest to god just not as smart as the other dude.

    Put blame where it's due.
  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,615
    the only problem i have with sf4 is the safe corner. i've never played a fg with safe corners like sf4. it used to be that you didn't want to go into a corner because you would die, but not in sf4. the jumping allows idiots to jump over and over and you can't do anything to stop them unless your character can jump really high.

    Uh, what?
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  • melflomilmelflomil Above Average Fighter Joined: Posts: 2,813
    Only thing that pissed me off was invincible back dashes, viper, Elf, auto block and how damage scaling went all the way to 10%

    Unfortunately SFxT still have invincible back dashes and awful damage scaling. personally i hoped for damage scaling to cap off at 50%. To add on to that throw ranges are awful. sigh* Oh well.

    I can't confirm this now but I think auto block is gone (minus the gem) because of the alpha counter. So that means you can worry less about reversals during block stings... Game is faster... Less floaty jumps....true block strings... all characters won't be free on wake up because of tech roll... Blocked dp's won't be safe unless it has massive hit stun and hit multiple times to tag cancel out off (akuma and ken). poking will be great again because you either have to block or counter pokes no more FADC
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  • Amazing FunbagsAmazing Funbags The J-Cup Lover Joined: Posts: 17,750
    Well for me:

    -Shortcuts
    -HUGE reversal window
    -Supers are near useless
    - Arcade Edition, then AE ver 2012 -_-
    -Oni
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  • gaemmkgaemmk Joined: Posts: 170
    Uh, what?

    if you get cornered in 3s and most fg you die. if you get cornered in sf4, you can maneuver more easily because neutral jumping can be spammed easily, and also there's no universal overhead to keep people honest...(i'm a very aggressive player).

    have you not noticed that people are content to just squat corners because they know you can't do shit to them. i remember listening to renic and 5star talk about not wanting to be in a corner in 3s, but i swear to god i see morons in sf4 jump all the way back into corners and squat. you can't jump at them, so all you can do is low forward, overhead if you have a quick overhead character, or move yourself back to get better position to safe jump(even though doing this will let them escape). crossing them up in the corner works better for certain characters, but i don't want to corner myself.

    everything else that everyone seems to complain about is fairly easy to navigate, but not being able to corner rape is very annoying. that's all i was saying.
  • AlenthAlenth Joined: Posts: 560
    My only issue in the series was AE, changing super to AE as main game in the competitive community felt like 6 steps back.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,615
    if you get cornered in 3s and most fg you die. if you get cornered in sf4, you can maneuver more easily because neutral jumping can be spammed easily, and also there's no universal overhead to keep people honest...(i'm a very aggressive player).

    have you not noticed that people are content to just squat corners because they know you can't do shit to them. i remember listening to renic and 5star talk about not wanting to be in a corner in 3s, but i swear to god i see morons in sf4 jump all the way back into corners and squat. you can't jump at them, so all you can do is low forward, overhead if you have a quick overhead character, or move yourself back to get better position to safe jump(even though doing this will let them escape). crossing them up in the corner works better for certain characters, but i don't want to corner myself.

    everything else that everyone seems to complain about is fairly easy to navigate, but not being able to corner rape is very annoying. that's all i was saying.

    Neutral jumping in the corner can be spammed? People squat in corners because they know you can't do anything?

    Who are you playing against??

    When *I* jump in the corner, I get anti-aired. When I crouch-block in the corner against most of the cast, it's because I'm cowering in fear of getting the crap kicked out of me.
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  • Austin_QEDAustin_QED "It's Whoop-Ass Time!" Joined: Posts: 1,739
    Most of my hate of sf4 comes from characters and FA's.

    Viper, maybe you should have been a Marvel Exclusive.
    Seth, are we playing DOA?
    Rufus, I......I...........What?
    Dudley, you may have come from 3, but you are still a random ass fucker who does random ass shit in this iteration.
    Ibuki, the same with you, I......I don't even want to talk about you, you one track minded slut.
    El Fuerte, do you know what footsies are, do you even care?

    Now, FA's, let's talk.

    You build Ultra meter (uugggugggghghh), and are even more brain dead than parrying, not only do you stop jump-ins, provide stupid pressure, and all around are a shame, you downright kill footsies and space control.
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