What makes SF4 a "bad" series?

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  • CanadianDstryrCanadianDstryr The Mundane Cinderella Joined: Posts: 2,071
    Abel, Viper and Fuerte aren't SF characters. Their entire gameplan is, do dumb shit, maybe win matches. Their footsies game is practically nonexistant, Abel and Fuerte in particular basically want to score a knockdown and start setting mixups into more knockdowns with absolutely no other plan B. Claw and Gief, who you could argue have similar gameplans (at least ST Claw), at least play the rest of the game, Abel and Fuerte really don't. Viper doesn't even need a knockdown to start setting mixups, like, the fuck's with that?
    The IV series brought the term vortex back into the light thanks to Akuma and Ibuki, but with them, at least it feels like I'm fighting a complete character.
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,223
    So like, no Throws? No sweeps? And not every character should have 6 buttons for 6 different attacks?
    No. I gave the examples of focus attacks, parries, and things like that. What I'm saying is give me SF4 without the focus attacks.
    KumaOso wrote:
    What the heck does that even mean?
    Just that the best Viper player said she has no place in Street Fighter, so its probably more true than not. His testimony provides evidence that Viper does not belong in SF4. That's all I meant.
  • M.D.M.D. digs older chicks Joined: Posts: 4,188
    The only problem I have with SFIV is mashing. But I welcome anyone to list games that didn't have any of these other problems or at least less than SFIV has. A popular phrase is "it doesn't feel like SF anymore." Sorry, that's bullshit...no matter how you look at it, the only character that suffers from this is Viper (because of her feints.) That doesn't mean she can do whatever she wants to do, either. For every top player that hates SFIV, you can find another that likes it. Finally, some people feel that variety is a problem? Why? One character is always going to be better than the rest unless the game is boring as hell. Might as well use that fact to your advantage and deal with the fact that some characters are going to be less "SF" oriented. They might end up dominant, but with this game, that doesn't mean you don't stand a chance. Kind of starting to sound like the Smash Brothers community...

    Any game with no lenient input and reversal window makes mashing ineffective(unless you're playing Marvel or something); any game that came before SF4 has a less of a problem with mashing strategies.

    With Viper, it's not just her feints; It's also her SJC and execution requirements. It taints the fundamental aspect of the game. It would be like putting a Gulty Gear character in a KOF game. Noting wrong with variety as long as it stays within the context of the game.
    By the way, SF3 is the least "street fighter" game in the series. Doesn't mean that it's a bad game, but it's not SF when you compare it to the rest of the titles.

    And yeah, SFIV is ugly as fuck.

    edit #2454: Real talk, this game does have problems. But the way people are putting it...are not the actual problems. Like for example, people don't like Seth because he can exploit characters wake up so well. This is a problem not because Seth doesn't play SF, but because Seth hasn't had to respect other characters' wake up options since Super dropped the damage so low while keeping Seth's relatively the same (buffing it with AE, in fact.)
    tl;dr: One of the real problems is that the developers nerfed damage too much.

    I guess what I'm getting at...is if you don't like SFIV because it has "8 way guessing games".....you're either lying or wording your post wrong. Because SF2 had just as much bullshit, but the real difference was that you lost when you got knocked down.

    I disagree. People only say that about SF3 because of the parry, but the focus mechanic is much worse. It a free minimum risk offensive and defensive tool that requires no strict window to use, nullifies jumpins, pokes, and projectiles, as well as makes risky offensive maneuvers risk-free. That's a big change in direction from the SF2 and SF3 series. SF2 put emphasis on normals and at least in SF3, if you mistime a parry or use the wrong one, you're going to get punished hard.

    SF2 doesn't have any bullshit. Bullshit would imply something stupid happening that doesn't make any sense. In SF2, if you make bad moves and end up on your back, you probably already lost the round. There's nothing BS about that.
    "I'm deeeeeaaaadd!" - Williams
    UMVC3: Shehulk/Haggar/Thor
    SSF4: Seth, Gen, Zangief
    KOFXIII: Kim Team, Ikari Warriors, Hwa/98 Kyo/Raiden
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    No. I gave the examples of focus attacks, parries, and things like that.
    Yeah but every character having a Throw and every character having Jab,Strong,Fierce,Short,Forward,RH is part of the "universal" tools you seem to detest. I don't really see anything bad in every character having a Focus Attack over only a few having one?
    Why.
  • JozhearJozhear vega all day Joined: Posts: 7,394

    I disagree. People only say that about SF3 because of the parry, but the focus mechanic is much worse. It a free minimum risk offensive and defensive tool that requires no strict window to use, nullifies jumpins, pokes, and projectiles, as well as makes risky offensive maneuvers risk-free. That's a big change in direction from the SF2 and SF3 series. SF2 put emphasis on normals and at least in SF3, if you mistime a parry or use the wrong one, you're going to get punished hard.

    SF2 doesn't have any bullshit. Bullshit would imply something stupid happening that doesn't make any sense. In SF2, if you make bad moves and end up on your back, you probably already lost the round. There's nothing BS about that.

    come on man that's lolworthy

    focus is actually pretty shitty

    you just basically described the OPPOSITE of what focusing is.

    edit: Why does this goddamn site keep posting when i never actually press post button?

    anyway, this post is SO FULL of BS that I have such a hard time just ... finding a place to begin
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    Main reasons I dislike SF4: Incredibly slow walk speeds, low blockstun, huge reversal window, shit throws (at least for walking up and throwing) and autocorrect conspire to make footsie-based offense pretty damn weak in general. You can still do offense because of the myriad option selects, safejumps and vortexes, but this isn't the kind of offense I find satisfying; rather than actively engaging with your opponent and pressing an advantage on the ground, you wait for a knockdown so you can run absurdly overpowered set plays. Not only is the amount of knowledge required to do basic offense (frame traps, safejump setups off different knockdowns vs. different characters, OSes vs. different characters) absurd compared to the amount of knowledge required to do basic defense (late tech, autocorrect DP), but you're pretty much forced to do offense in a very specific way. There is no creativity because trying to get creative will result in you getting DPed. Then you have characters like Seth and Viper who can pretty much spazz out and do whatever while ignoring the ground game entirely, which is the kind of offensive play which nets by far the most rewards in SF4.
    I disagree. People only say that about SF3 because of the parry, but the focus mechanic is much worse. It a free minimum risk offensive and defensive tool that requires no strict window to use, nullifies jumpins, pokes, and projectiles, as well as makes risky offensive maneuvers risk-free. That's a big change in direction from the SF2 and SF3 series. SF2 put emphasis on normals and at least in SF3, if you mistime a parry or use the wrong one, you're going to get punished hard.

    No, in SF3 if you mistime a parry most of the time you crouch for a second or take a step forward which is unpunishable. If you're using parry a lot in mixup situations you are using it wrong; the key is to use it in footsie situations where the opponent is very unlikely (if they are even able) to hit you at the other height for the couple of frames that you attempt the parry.

    Focus attack is still dumb because at footsie range you can hold it and safely backdash away if your opponent doesn't press anything, but parry is much worse.
  • bbq saucebbq sauce Joined: Posts: 754
    I think everyone in their mind thinks they should be better than they really are. Seems like a symptom of the last decade or so, complain about the game rather than work on your problem areas. For instance, complaining about mashing? Still? Really? Some of you haven't picked up that your opponent mashing is incredibly exploitable yet? If this is the type of complaint you have, what you're really saying is you're not smart enough to adapt.

    People complaining about graphics are the worst. This should be the one genre that's not taken over by easily impressed graphic kids. God damn, give me gameplay in my fighters over graphics any day.
    plays melty blood, so I give a fuck less about graphics lol

    your first point however, I disagree. we all know how to beat people that mashing dp's whenever they're defending. You just do something simple like jab jab > block. DP baited into punish, hooray for you.

    it's the simple point that something so scrubby is actually a legitimate threat, that forces you to give up momentum after like 2 or 3 buttons, whereas in other games where timing and good prediction are actual factors, that allow for you to make a corner push string, or to set up counter hits etc. Defending yourself should not be so easy. Literally having two ex stocks means it's my turn to hit buttons whenever the other play has a gap in his string, because he has to bait me.
    See, the problem is that you guys play Street Fighter solely for tournaments and competition with other players, but that is only one small aspect of fighting games.
    ~Playcircus
  • JozhearJozhear vega all day Joined: Posts: 7,394
    here is what focus attack actually does

    1. it's not FREE, first of all. come on. compared to other footsie moves they have insanely slow start ups, tremendous recovery, and usually, the range isn't that great. They also only absorb one hit, provided that hit isn't a focus breaker or a reversal.

    2. If you focus and they didn't do anything, you could be fucked. again, how does this make focus free? In the Vega matchup, people like to focus randomly to try and absorb a poke and dash through on reaction safely. If they're out of range and I see them wind up a focus, I just wait and EX FBA. there's nothing they can do. it beats backdash, forward dash, and release.

    3. Some people are unsafe on hit if they do a level 1 focus and dash in. Otherwise, you can do a level 2, but your start up is obviously huge.

    4. Who cares if they randomly do a focus, you block, and they backdash? They're giving up space. this is street fighter after all. pretty important stuff. They want to keep focus backdashing, sweet, go find yourself a place in the corner where i'll murder you.

    The ONLY use focus has is to absorb one hit and counter it. You don't get to absorb all of them, like parry, and if you didn't succesfully absorb one, there's a very high chance of you getting punished, and it seldomly results in good offensive pressure if you do dash in anyways.

    this explains pretty clearly why focus isn't a common facet of high level play. It's a situational move that is severely matchup dependant. Not a gameplay mechanic that instantly makes characters like Remy totally useless.

    edit: Right, you also said focus blows up jump ins.

    1. No
    2. No
    3. No
    and
    4. No

    Even if you can succesfully trip guard people with focus consistently and get crumples, doesn't matter, empty jump grab is a hard counter to it

    for what it's worth though, no one can succesfully counter all jump ins with focus. if they do the jump in deep, they'll recover from the landing FAR sooner than your focus will hit them. you'll just get grabbed or worse. if they do a shallow jump in, then yes your chances are good. in this case, you're just mixing up with stuff like c. fp because they might have a worse chance of succeeding in this area anyway. again, how does this make focus free?

    As for focus being a good defensive maneuver, again, only absorbs one hit. C. mk fireball anyone? St. mp elbow? Scissor kicks? C. lp spam?
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,918
    Play SF with Fuerte and he can't win. Abel has to play SF with you before he can do dumb shit. Hakan can't play SF because he gets rolled over when the Hakan player touches the controller. Viper...well, free cancels are bullshit in my book. They could make it work by changing Seismo, I guess. But it's too late now (probably.)

    I would have much less of a problem with mashing if it only worked when you're knocked down. I just think it's bad design to give any characters an invincible, often cancelable 3-5f option to beat frame traps, neutral jumps, and bad backdashes without having to learn anything about the opponent's options. It's kind of hard to word this so I hope one understands.
    yeee boy time to be the worst i ever was...ONCE MORE!
    15Mbps upload isn't enough for SFV sometimes I guess? Or Comcast hates me. I dunno, sorry if stuff happens.
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    4. Who cares if they randomly do a focus, you block, and they backdash? They're giving up space. this is street fighter after all. pretty important stuff. They want to keep focus backdashing, sweet, go find yourself a place in the corner where i'll murder you.

    Right, except SF4 has the slowest walkspeeds and the hugest stages of any SF game. Go play ST and realise how boring it is to spend an eternity chasing a turtle to the corner in SF4. Also the reward if they guess right is far in excess of the tiny bit of space they give up for guessing wrong.
  • PurpleLemonadeGGPOPurpleLemonadeGGPO Joined: Posts: 1,336
    What the heck does that even mean?

    It's the reason why for some time, Gootecks was contemplating switching to Ibuki instead of using Rog. Oh and why Mike Ross hates that character.
  • JozhearJozhear vega all day Joined: Posts: 7,394
    Right, except SF4 has the slowest walkspeeds and the hugest stages of any SF game. Go play ST and realise how boring it is to spend an eternity chasing a turtle to the corner in SF4.
    Well that's fine, I can understand why you don't like it (I don't like it either normally, especially online where ppl feel the need to run away from you when YOU have a life lead), I'm just saying it isn't cheap or anything. I'd prefer if people did that.
  • Zack HoagieZack Hoagie Everything's coming up Milhouse. Joined: Posts: 19
    Keep in mind people really hated Third Strike for it's first five or so years too.
  • PurpleLemonadeGGPOPurpleLemonadeGGPO Joined: Posts: 1,336
    Play SF with Fuerte and he can't win. Abel has to play SF with you before he can do dumb shit. Hakan can't play SF because he gets rolled over when the Hakan player touches the controller. Viper...well, free cancels are bullshit in my book. They could make it work by changing Seismo, I guess. But it's too late now (probably.)

    free cancels are what's bullshit about viper?

    what exactly is your idea of playing SF?
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    Keep in mind people really hated Third Strike for it's first five or so years too.

    People still hate Third Strike. Justin and Ricky are on record as always having disliked it and they were two of the USA's top players. People seem to have this idea that people who vehemently disliked 3S in '99 turned around after Tokido scraped Justin in 2002 or after Daigo did the same in 2004 and said "oh never mind it's actually a good game" and that isn't really true.
  • Zack HoagieZack Hoagie Everything's coming up Milhouse. Joined: Posts: 19
    The hate (mainly) just comes from the fact that it's the biggest game in the FGC, and cause everyone plays it everyone has a chance to point out all the different little things wrong with it.
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    The hate mainly comes from that combined with the fact that there are so many things wrong with it. People like to draw this equivalency because all games of course have problems, but the problems people complain about with SF4 are of a far more fundamental nature than, say, RC Blanka in CvS2 or something (the major exception being parrying which is the most fundamental change to the classic SF system, but that is still just one thing not a dozen things like SF4). If you haven't played a prior game in the series at a competitive level you wouldn't understand.
  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,918
    free cancels are what's bullshit about viper? lol

    what exactly is your idea of playing SF?
    Strong footsies, strong rush down, or strong zoning game. Your character beats El Fuerte. If you lost to El Fuerte, it's because you did something stupid and let him knock you down. And then you either got incredibly unlucky or you decided to take risks that didn't pay off.

    If your character has strong footsies, strong rush down, or a combination of zoning and strong footsies, your character will typically beat Abel or at least go even. Abel doesn't just magically get in for free.

    And how is this not what's bullshit about Viper? lol What do you have left when you take away Seismo chains, SJC, EX Seismo feint, and Thunder Knuckle feint? The ability to change your jump arc and damage? I guess that's still mid-tier in this game.

    I want to know what your idea of SF is. Because it sounds like you don't like playing it. My idea of SF is game plans, educated guesses, and rewards. El Fuerte isn't top tier because he has no reliable way of getting that reward...which is a pretty shitty reward in addition. All he can really rely on is educated guesses. Abel has a reeeally simple game plan, and he does dominate because of it. It's connect that fst.MK > your reward > go to town and get more rewards. Educated guesses get him big damage. But he does have bad MUs. Viper, with her free cancels, effectively neutralizes footsies...and that's why she doesn't fit in. She's top in my book because there is virtually no risk involved in doing this. Throw in big damage, insane rewards on educated guesses...well, she's practically a Marvel character. Seth might as well be a Marvel character too (not the greatest idea giving him a 3f command grab, design wise.)

    lololol because I don't sound like a sarcastic ass yet

    anyway every game is bad except SF2 and Vampire Savior. But half the SF2 revisions are bad and Vampire Savior is practically dead so we're all doomed
    yeee boy time to be the worst i ever was...ONCE MORE!
    15Mbps upload isn't enough for SFV sometimes I guess? Or Comcast hates me. I dunno, sorry if stuff happens.
  • RoseRose Filipinoman Joined: Posts: 1,790
    The real reason why people often condemn SF4 is because people have something to compare SF4 to.

    A lot of people back then seemed to hate SF3 as well, but then they ended up liking it; many of the people hating it were the people that were SF2 players.

    Once again, you can say "no one is going to remember SF4", but we are going to remember SF4. Simply for the fact that the fighting game scene was simply reborn thanks to it and how many years and majors we've put into the game itself.

    ST was uncomparable in its time period, there was little to nothing to compare it to. But SF4, there is definitely something to compare it to....

    I don't care if you hate SF4, Alpha, 3s... If you don't like it don't play it.

    Don't let the competitive scene dictate what games you play. Revitalize the games you love if you really want that game to played.

    SF4 is flawed, I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's by no means a bad game... Just... Different.
    Let the spirits guide you.
  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 578
    plays melty blood, so I give a fuck less about graphics lol

    your first point however, I disagree. we all know how to beat people that mashing dp's whenever they're defending. You just do something simple like jab jab > block. DP baited into punish, hooray for you.

    it's the simple point that something so scrubby is actually a legitimate threat, that forces you to give up momentum after like 2 or 3 buttons, whereas in other games where timing and good prediction are actual factors, that allow for you to make a corner push string, or to set up counter hits etc. Defending yourself should not be so easy. Literally having two ex stocks means it's my turn to hit buttons whenever the other play has a gap in his string, because he has to bait me.

    Dude, just mold your game around that tactic if it's scrubby and effective. This is how meta games are developed. Something originally is very strong and everyone does it, eventually all your movements should take this into account. This is why I learned safe jumps, ambiguous srk proof cannon strikes and when to stop my combos & block. This is a failure to adjust, not an inherent flaw in the game.

    Srk mashing is really just one of a hundred tools there to utilize. It's not a particularly good strategy, especially when you face the guys that are extreme with it.

    On the flip side it's a strong tool so mediocre and newer players can have fun with each other without having to worry about the higher execution stuff for the hardcore players.

    Personally I think it's a beautiful balance this way because as you get better you should find SRK mashing to be less and less effective. Once you really dedicated time to the game, it should be a non issue.
    Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    Dude, just mold your game around that tactic if it's scrubby and effective. This is how meta games are developed. Something originally is very strong and everyone does it, eventually all your movements should take this into account. This is why I learned safe jumps, ambiguous srk proof cannon strikes and when to stop my combos & block. This is a failure to adjust, not an inherent flaw in the game.

    Srk mashing is really just one of a hundred tools there to utilize. It's not a particularly good strategy, especially when you face the guys that are extreme with it.

    On the flip side it's a strong tool so mediocre and newer players can have fun with each other without having to worry about the higher execution stuff for the hardcore players.

    Personally I think it's a beautiful balance this way because as you get better you should find SRK mashing to be less and less effective. Once you really dedicated time to the game, it should be a non issue.

    You are completely missing the point. He is not complaining that it's hard to deal with, he is complaining that he has to deal with it at all, when in other games it is a non-issue. The very fact that mashing DP is a legitimate tactic (and it absolutely is in certain situations; you see top players do it plenty) shapes the game even if you are totally adept at dealing with it. It's one of those things that contributes towards making SF4 the game it is.
  • HAVHAV iori respawn Joined: Posts: 9,503
    I think SF4 was a good series.

    Ono turned me off to it, with this last update though. 3 different versions of SSF4 in a year and a half. Boooooo.

    I do think the game was pretty well-designed. Most of the gripes go away the better you get at the game, IMO. People complaining about FADC don't understand just how devastating it can be to lose 2 bars on a failed attempt. Also, you can neutralize all that stuff. The idea that you can't pressure safely in most situations is just wrong.

    SF4 does stifle creativity is a sense though. The reality is that, in most situations, to minimize risk, you HAVE to attack in a certain way. You have to take the time to develop safe pressure, and once you do, there's no reason to do anything else, outside of pure mindfuckery. In all honesty though, most good games wittle down to that point. Optimal strategies present themselves and make others obsolete. Idk...

    All in all, I think SF4 is good. Not perfect, but good. The pace is really slow (which is a good and bad thing), and some of the characters are really stupid (I don't think Viper is one of those dumb characters, BTW.. I think she is super overrated.), but overall, I think it's good.
  • m2thebradym2thebrady Joined: Posts: 578
    You are completely missing the point. He is not complaining that it's hard to deal with, he is complaining that he has to deal with it at all, when in other games it is a non-issue. The very fact that mashing DP is a legitimate tactic (and it absolutely is in certain situations; you see top players do it plenty) shapes the game even if you are totally adept at dealing with it.

    Would it be a problem if they each did 10 damage and didn't give any special knock downs? No, it's being complained about because of the perception that's it's strong.

    Now what I am saying is once you get to a certain level the risk-reward for the srk masher is ass to the point where most characters can take off 30-40% or get an oki knockdown from one good read.

    I still mash too but I pick my spots. Often times I'll do it more when I'm losing and getting desperate, I'll try to find an area where I've been watching my opponent be shaky with his normals. That's on him like it's on me if I'm constantly dropping normals. I don't see any room to complain here unless you just want to be a cry baby who refuses to get their links down.

    But that's pretty much how I'm reading this entire thread- people who never took the time to adjust and are still complaining about years old vanilla tactics that really aren't that hard to adapt against and the blue print to deal with them are all over the character forum and youtube videos.

    So I guess my main point here is if SRK mashing was something that was ruining your game it's easily something you can put just a little time into to make it a near non factor or something you can heavily use to your advantage. This idea of it being an overpowered tactic is silly.
    Jaime Lannister sends his regards.
  • KayrohKayroh Joined: Posts: 881
    add to the list


    - 3frame DPs

    I like how you listed ST for fundementals, but you have an issue with 3 frame DPs.

    GTFO.
    "Fuck the Earth, Wind and Fire, Bitch. Fuck The Elements... And Captain Planet"
  • bbq saucebbq sauce Joined: Posts: 754
    Dude, just mold your game around that tactic if it's scrubby and effective. This is how meta games are developed. Something originally is very strong and everyone does it, eventually all your movements should take this into account. This is why I learned safe jumps, ambiguous srk proof cannon strikes and when to stop my combos & block. This is a failure to adjust, not an inherent flaw in the game.

    Srk mashing is really just one of a hundred tools there to utilize. It's not a particularly good strategy, especially when you face the guys that are extreme with it.

    On the flip side it's a strong tool so mediocre and newer players can have fun with each other without having to worry about the higher execution stuff for the hardcore players.

    Personally I think it's a beautiful balance this way because as you get better you should find SRK mashing to be less and less effective. Once you really dedicated time to the game, it should be a non issue.
    SRK mashing gets less effective, yes.

    But, the prevalence of of SRK fadc's as a momentum shift forces you to stop at certain points, because there's no reason not to do it, and risk/reward ends up in the favor of the defender.

    And because you have to stop, now there's multiple facets to what I can do, by having the meter. You reach a point wherein you are going to have to stop because of my DP, instead I just walk forward and jab you, now it's advantage: me. Or if I want to get away from you, and gain my ground back, I can back dash, or I could get really ballsy and straight up throw you. Sure, this is frame-trap bait. But, because the reward of my DP fadc is wayy better than the reward of your frame trap, you, as the attacker are at MY mercy, you're attacking, but you're playing my game. That's stupid.

    Granted, the DP in itself creates this situation on wake up in every game, but, there's a lot more advantage to a knockdown situation, opposed to SF4 where every pressure situation leads to it.

    I understand that the systems of any game will mold into a meta game, and obviously one cannot expect them to always be the same between every game, but, the way the cards fall in SF4 it makes a very fundamentally flawed metagame.
    See, the problem is that you guys play Street Fighter solely for tournaments and competition with other players, but that is only one small aspect of fighting games.
    ~Playcircus
  • M.D.M.D. digs older chicks Joined: Posts: 4,188
    here is what focus attack actually does

    1. it's not FREE, first of all. come on. compared to other footsie moves they have insanely slow start ups, tremendous recovery, and usually, the range isn't that great. They also only absorb one hit, provided that hit isn't a focus breaker or a reversal.

    2. If you focus and they didn't do anything, you could be fucked. again, how does this make focus free? In the Vega matchup, people like to focus randomly to try and absorb a poke and dash through on reaction safely. If they're out of range and I see them wind up a focus, I just wait and EX FBA. there's nothing they can do. it beats backdash, forward dash, and release.

    3. Some people are unsafe on hit if they do a level 1 focus and dash in. Otherwise, you can do a level 2, but your start up is obviously huge.

    4. Who cares if they randomly do a focus, you block, and they backdash? They're giving up space. this is street fighter after all. pretty important stuff. They want to keep focus backdashing, sweet, go find yourself a place in the corner where i'll murder you.

    The ONLY use focus has is to absorb one hit and counter it. You don't get to absorb all of them, like parry, and if you didn't succesfully absorb one, there's a very high chance of you getting punished, and it seldomly results in good offensive pressure if you do dash in anyways.

    this explains pretty clearly why focus isn't a common facet of high level play. It's a situational move that is severely matchup dependant. Not a gameplay mechanic that instantly makes characters like Remy totally useless.


    1. Subjective. Not every focus attack is the same.

    2. It's free as in it doesn't cost anything. It doesn't require meter and you don't have to anticipate an attack to utilize it. Of course I'm not gonna throw it out to bait Vega's FBA, but I can use it to absorb a missed Wall dive throw and get a crumple.

    3. Some are, and some aren't. Also you don't have to dash in after the focus absorb; you can dash out.

    4. So you're dismissing the benefits of the focus absorb because the penalty is loss of space. Guess that makes focus absorb useless then cause I give up my position.

    The point of my post was to shed some light on what the focus mechanics does to the game in general, not nitpick through matchup specific situations. Some characters are shafted by the mechanic while others benefit greatly from it. It's not just focus attacks either; the FADC also comes into play when talking about the focus mechanic.

    That's a pretty shaky argument for talking trash.
    No, in SF3 if you mistime a parry most of the time you crouch for a second or take a step forward which is unpunishable. If you're using parry a lot in mixup situations you are using it wrong; the key is to use it in footsie situations where the opponent is very unlikely (if they are even able) to hit you at the other height for the couple of frames that you attempt the parry.

    Focus attack is still dumb because at footsie range you can hold it and safely backdash away if your opponent doesn't press anything, but parry is much worse.

    Did not know that. I admit to not being a pro with the parry system. Do you really think it's worse than focus though? You gotta practice the parry and the timing between multiple hits even if you're successful. With focus though, you can absorb, get some revenge meter, take your little damage and backdash to safety. Feilong and Seth are the big offenders, while others like Viper and Ken are not so much.
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  • GemsGems *Sees SFxT* *Backs away slowly* Joined: Posts: 163
    Mashing DP is never a non-factor in SF4. It does sound like a very 2009 complaint but just because people don't get hit by it a lot any more doesn't mean it isn't still a massive influence on how you're forced to play the game. In fact people don't get hit by it a lot any more precisely because they have changed the way they play to account for it. Some people don't like the way this forces you to play. You sound like the people arguing against Viscant's complaints re: parrying with "well if parrying is so good why doesn't everyone parry everything?"
  • NyoronoruNyoronoru Vocaloid DLC Joined: Posts: 1,647
    1) Dashes are terrible. The reason why this is the case is so that you can't use a Focus Attack as a moving parry like Hakan (Hakan needs oil, so it's OK). So the game is already sluggish at this point.
    2) Walkspeed is bad. This is to prevent you from just walking up and throwing slow Focus Attacks (only a few chars can do this). This makes the game already very boring.
    3) Reversal window is massive and invincible backdashes. These are to prevent you from doing Level 3 Focus Attacks on the opponent's wakeup over and over again if they don't have a reversal that allows them to escape it, or so they don't have to guess so much against the potential mixup of an unblockable. So wakeup situations have to be dealt with extremely carefully.
    4) Stages are huge. This is just a bad design decision.
    5) Jumps are fully lower-body invincible on the second frame (when they are airborne). This forces you to go high meaty, which sucks because....
    6) Variable wakeup times. Combine this with invincible backdashes, huge reversal windows and bizarre jump timings basically means the only characters that can stage real offensive pressure are ones that have incredibly good crossups/dive kicks that negate all these things. Your regular grounded offensive character is doomed in this system.

    Street Fighter 4 just doesn't have the pull of a fun fighting game. This is probably because the game is based around wakeup offense and not grounded offense.
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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,223
    A big problem with focus attacks is that, despite being universal, some characters obviously have superior focus attacks to others. Should have been even across the board.
  • VulpesVulpes No. Joined: Posts: 3,678
    A big problem with focus attacks is that, despite being universal, some characters obviously have superior focus attacks to others. Should have been even across the board.
    First you hate on universal mechs and then you state they shouldn't be different but even? And completly disregard that every character has a different throw (as well as different buttons obviously), too?
    Why.
  • lunch_hotdogslunch_hotdogs Disliked member Joined: Posts: 828
    Honestly...
    I hate SF4... but it has little to do with the game itself....
    I can't stand the SF4 elitists. People call OGs elitist and toss that term around like a salad, but meanwhile they fail to realize that they're being elitist in their own right as well. SF2 and SF3 had its moments where it somewhat segregated the community a bit. Very few people that LOVE one of those games LOVES the other as well, but we have a mutual respect for each other. SF4 blatantly split the community up beyond repair, mostly because of, as I see it:
    * Online / Ranked especially
    * Elitist newbies coming in with the attitude that the OGs don't know anything other than old games.
    * Elitist OGs coming back from the dead, complaining that newbies don't know anything about "real fighting games"
    * Newbies can't transition to older games, even if they WANT to learn them because of the easy execution requirement of SF4.
    * OGs losing their execution because they play SF4 for a while and get used to easy mode SF4.
    * then... take all that into consideration and you get BICKERING... dramatic BICKERING between the two, separating people up.

    Street Fighter's become more of a spectacle than I would like it to be, but I'm one person and am not going to change the way people perceive fighters overall.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,629
    SRK mashing gets less effective, yes.

    But, the prevalence of of SRK fadc's as a momentum shift forces you to stop at certain points, because there's no reason not to do it, and risk/reward ends up in the favor of the defender.

    And because you have to stop, now there's multiple facets to what I can do, by having the meter. You reach a point wherein you are going to have to stop because of my DP, instead I just walk forward and jab you, now it's advantage: me. Or if I want to get away from you, and gain my ground back, I can back dash, or I could get really ballsy and straight up throw you. Sure, this is frame-trap bait. But, because the reward of my DP fadc is wayy better than the reward of your frame trap, you, as the attacker are at MY mercy, you're attacking, but you're playing my game. That's stupid.

    Granted, the DP in itself creates this situation on wake up in every game, but, there's a lot more advantage to a knockdown situation, opposed to SF4 where every pressure situation leads to it.

    I understand that the systems of any game will mold into a meta game, and obviously one cannot expect them to always be the same between every game, but, the way the cards fall in SF4 it makes a very fundamentally flawed metagame.

    Don't agree with much of this... "there's no reason not to DP FADC" is not really true at all, since losing 2 (or 3) meters is pretty detrimental to a lot of characters, especially if it will be obviously blocked. Most people have adjusted their pressure to be safe from reversal DPs (delayed jabs, delayed throw techs, etc). Eventually you just condition people that DP is a bad idea, unless they want to blow their meter load on something that is unlikely to work.

    I also don't agree that the DP reward is greater than the frame trap reward. Some characters get huge damage off frame traps (ultra, in some cases!), so your one-shot 100 damage DP + 300 damage ultra (once per round) does not overcome the ever-present threat of me doing 300 damage, 600 stun meterless by counterhitting you with a fierce (any time per round). The people who can't do this type of damage will probably be in the mid 250s range and set up a safe jump (ie, Ryu) for more "expected" damage in the long run.

    I understand that sometimes it's frustrating to try and bait DP, but you end up blocking wakeup mash jab, or watch them backdash. I just think the reward is still in the offense's favor. If you do some OS that catches backdash, you gain good damage and positioning (reward better than 100 damage DP). If you counterhit the jab, you gain a fat combo and probably a safe jump (reward better than 100 damage DP). If you block the DP, you get fat damage again. Sometimes you eat 100 damage DP because you guessed wrong, and sometimes he has ultra and 2 meters. Meh? I was playing against a Yun player (as Cody) who would always do *something* on wakeup... sometimes even just wakeup low strong. Seems like I guessed 5 times in a row wrong, eating DPs or having to give up advantage and block the strong when trying to bait DP. Lost probably 400 damage doing this. Finally guessed right and counterhit a wakeup low strong with low fierce xx EX rocks for like 600 damage and won the round. I understand Cody is an exceptional case in terms of damage off counterhits, but you could make a case like this for a lot of characters.

    Lastly, you often see pros doing mash DP, there's no debate about that, but I basically see it as "intent to reversal". They decided my block string wasn't going to be tight and they declared an intent to reversal. Sometimes it works, but I think it works significantly less than a lot of people think it does (the psychological frustration getting hit by DP probably means we remember all the times we get hit by it, but not all the times we get all that damage back on a bait). Daigo in particular gave away a lot of rounds in Topanga League because he DPed a lot... he actually looked kind of goofy in some spots.
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  • blockheadblockhead Joined: Posts: 243
    I don't hate 4 I would just rather play KOF XIII, 3s or ST.
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  • HAVHAV iori respawn Joined: Posts: 9,503
    KOF 13 really is the shit though.
  • blockheadblockhead Joined: Posts: 243
    KOF 13 really is the shit though.
    For real, I'm playing it now.
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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,629
    As for my opinion on this topic... I dunno. I'm obviously an apologist for SF4, but I understand that some people won't like the game's style, and that's cool. There are lots of other games these days, go find a game you enjoy and play that. I just wish people wouldn't be so contradictory with their reasons for disliking SF4.

    Saying stuff like stages should be a lot smaller (something that is clearly disadvantageous for zoners) and then saying zoning should be made better. Saying wakeup mash DP is a viable strategy, and then complaining about wakeup strategies designed to BEAT that exact thing consistently being too prevalent.

    I also think the SF4 team has done a respectable job decreasing the things that plagued Vanilla a bit... high damage from ultra off trades (making comeback factor "for free" less of an issue), the balance of the game, giving characters interesting tools, etc. No game is perfect but IMO it's clear that the SF4 team was actually doing their best within the framework of the game to improve it with each release (Yun aside).

    I can see how Ono can rub people the wrong way... he's just doing PR stunts though. He has a team of dozens of people working with him on all the game systems (and in some documented instances from the design blogs, overriding him on game decisions), so he's not responsible for everything wrong with SF4.
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  • MWisk_2MWisk_2 Superduper Streamonster Joined: Posts: 1,042
    I like how you listed ST for fundementals, but you have an issue with 3 frame DPs.

    GTFO.

    Dude... one of those very fundamentals is how to apply safe jumps in order to take maximum advantage out of a supposedly favorably situation for the attacker, he got a knockdown. So safe jumps are one of the FGs fundamentals... you get a chance to attack and apply pressure that the knocked down opponent has to respect in order to properly escape...

    Now, here's what happens with SFIV's 3 frame DPs... if the minimum recovery for a jumping attack is 4 frames... do the math...
    You cannot safe jump 3frame DPs in this game. It doesn't work, the very concept of safe jumping is invalid. You lose your attack, you can't keep your pressure. In fact you have to fear the knocked down opponent, the one who messed up in the first place, it would be even a lil more acceptable if you didn't add the fact that FADC makes this move safe.

    3 frame DPs invalid safe jumps, you need to empty jump and bait them, therefore losing your earned pressure and actually putting yourself in a mixup situation. Which is one of the things that contribute to make SFIV a more defensive game.

    Beware what you GTFO to...
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  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,223
    First you hate on universal mechs and then you state they shouldn't be different but even? And completly disregard that every character has a different throw (as well as different buttons obviously), too?
    If they absolutely have to be included, then they should be even, yes. Reason being that the focus attack can be very powerful when used with the right character. Cody and Fei-Long, for example, have great focus attacks. Hell, focus attacks have all but eliminated long-range projectiles. You get to build "free" meter, sure, but at the cost of giving your opponent ultra.
  • pootnanniespootnannies mr. negative Joined: Posts: 3,165
    You know, the 4f reversal window wouldn't be so much of a problem if the game wouldn't keep "rolling" it everytime you try to mash out uppercuts and what not. If the game would give you just a single chance to make your reversal and all subsequent mashing would be invalid and not counted towards it, it could kind of work. I hope this maked sense.

    But other than that, easy inputs/shortcuts, stupid nerfs, fadc, comeback mechanics, yadda yadda. Nobody won't care, remember or play SF4 10 years from not, when instead something like ST is forever :blush:
    it's actually 5 frames and i agree it wouldn't be a big deal if you mashed during that period nothing would come out.

    well there are so many reasons to love and hate sf4 that i'm just going to name the obvious.
    HATE:
    -5frame reversals that allow the dp shortcut.
    -reversal FADC on block. it takes away wakeup mind games like simply blocking and baiting reversals. what's the point now?
    -vortexes. they are hella stupid.
    -invincible backdashes. a lot of people don't seem to understand why this is so stupid. maybe if it was character dependent i wouldn't mind so much but you have to understand there are already way too many ways to kill offense after a knockdown in this game and this is one of the major ones. it forces you to use the very annoying OS's in the game that take out any good reads and guessing which helps the game be more exciting. OS are not exciting because they just happen and nobody had to take a big risk in using them.
    -4 frame landing buffer for OS.
    -art style is hit and miss. looks mostly like a copy paste for almost every character.
    -short block stun. with huge reversal windows and easy mash dp motions this is a huge problem to keep pressure.
    -dizzies are ass in this game. seriously. at least reset damage scaling when a dizzy occurs mid combo.
    -supers are almost useless and meter builds way to slow for them while ultras build way too fast.
    -damage is too low and ultras have long animations that actually take time off the clock. BORING

    LOVE:
    -flashy looking combos.
    -personally i like the FADC mechanic in combos but charge characters can't really take advantage of them.
    -plinking. going to someone else's house and playing on their laggy tv or going to a tournament with faster/slower response time monitors can be annoying. plinking kind of helps here so that you can still get down some difficult links even if you're not 100% used to the response time of the setup you're on. this can also be said of online play.
    -many characters and different styles to choose from. this can also be a bad thing but i'll just let it go.
    -art style is more cartoon like and not realistic. i'm glad they went this route even though the models are somewhat ugly in many areas.
    -some good animation here and there and less mocap animations.
    -great looking particle effects imo.
    -modding for the pc version is getting better and better.
    -somewhat easier entry level for beginners.
    -the game is something new and not sf2 or sf3. it's its own game with its own vibe, good or bad. unfortunately the game is too slow and the stuff from sf2 is boring in this game but it has some new things to learn to make it a new experience for sf fans.
    -i don't think it revitalized the fighting game genre but it certainly helped put the spot light back on it.

    some people are going to love sf4 no matter what. all sf games i can think of had some major bullshit but people learned to love the games anyways. sf4 isn't my cup of tea but i can see why some people really like it and others really hate it. if you like defensive play then you might like sf4 more but if you're into mixups and mindgames then you're going to get frustrated with it. to each his own i guess.


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  • InfilInfil una catástrofe con una pelota de beisbol Joined: Posts: 8,629
    If they absolutely have to be included, then they should be even, yes. Reason being that the focus attack can be very powerful when used with the right character. Cody and Fei-Long, for example, have great focus attacks. Hell, focus attacks have all but eliminated long-range projectiles. You get to build "free" meter, sure, but at the cost of giving your opponent ultra.

    Wow.

    So *that's* what I did wrong vs Mago's Sagat at Canada Cup. I didn't focus enough tiger shots!

    Also, something is wrong with giving someone a better focus attack than someone else? What's the difference between... giving Ryu a better sweep than someone else? Use your character's tools, sometimes that involves focus and sometimes it doesn't. Lots of characters are solid in this game that don't use focus much (Balrog, eg). I guess all ... projectiles should be the same? All throw ranges? Man, why am I even responding seriously to this.
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