KumaOso, post: 6465682, member: 13890 wrote:
What the heck does that even mean?
Gems, post: 6466087, member: 62782 wrote:
Right, except SF4 has the slowest walkspeeds and the hugest stages of any SF game. Go play ST and realise how boring it is to spend an eternity chasing a turtle to the corner in SF4.
The Breaker, post: 6466085, member: 57167 wrote:
Play SF with Fuerte and he can't win. Abel has to play SF with you before he can do dumb shit. Hakan can't play SF because he gets rolled over when the Hakan player touches the controller. Viper...well, free cancels are bullshit in my book. They could make it work by changing Seismo, I guess. But it's too late now (probably.)
Zack Hoagie, post: 6466111, member: 59453 wrote:
Keep in mind people really hated Third Strike for it's first five or so years too.
PurpleLemonadeGGPO, post: 6466120, member: 22139 wrote:
free cancels are what's bullshit about viper? lol
what exactly is your idea of playing SF?
bbq sauce, post: 6466035, member: 3667 wrote:
plays melty blood, so I give a fuck less about graphics lol
your first point however, I disagree. we all know how to beat people that mashing dp's whenever they're defending. You just do something simple like jab jab > block. DP baited into punish, hooray for you.
it's the simple point that something so scrubby is actually a legitimate threat, that forces you to give up momentum after like 2 or 3 buttons, whereas in other games where timing and good prediction are actual factors, that allow for you to make a corner push string, or to set up counter hits etc. Defending yourself should not be so easy. Literally having two ex stocks means it's my turn to hit buttons whenever the other play has a gap in his string, because he has to bait me.
m2thebrady, post: 6466208, member: 19271 wrote:
Dude, just mold your game around that tactic if it's scrubby and effective. This is how meta games are developed. Something originally is very strong and everyone does it, eventually all your movements should take this into account. This is why I learned safe jumps, ambiguous srk proof cannon strikes and when to stop my combos & block. This is a failure to adjust, not an inherent flaw in the game.
Srk mashing is really just one of a hundred tools there to utilize. It's not a particularly good strategy, especially when you face the guys that are extreme with it.
On the flip side it's a strong tool so mediocre and newer players can have fun with each other without having to worry about the higher execution stuff for the hardcore players.
Personally I think it's a beautiful balance this way because as you get better you should find SRK mashing to be less and less effective. Once you really dedicated time to the game, it should be a non issue.
Gems, post: 6466212, member: 62782 wrote:
You are completely missing the point. He is not complaining that it's hard to deal with, he is complaining that he has to deal with it at all, when in other games it is a non-issue. The very fact that mashing DP is a legitimate tactic (and it absolutely is in certain situations; you see top players do it plenty) shapes the game even if you are totally adept at dealing with it.
MWisk_2, post: 6463709, member: 44717 wrote:
add to the list
- 3frame DPs
Jozhear, post: 6466059, member: 11700 wrote:
here is what focus attack actually does
1. it's not FREE, first of all. come on. compared to other footsie moves they have insanely slow start ups, tremendous recovery, and usually, the range isn't that great. They also only absorb one hit, provided that hit isn't a focus breaker or a reversal.
2. If you focus and they didn't do anything, you could be fucked. again, how does this make focus free? In the Vega matchup, people like to focus randomly to try and absorb a poke and dash through on reaction safely. If they're out of range and I see them wind up a focus, I just wait and EX FBA. there's nothing they can do. it beats backdash, forward dash, and release.
3. Some people are unsafe on hit if they do a level 1 focus and dash in. Otherwise, you can do a level 2, but your start up is obviously huge.
4. Who cares if they randomly do a focus, you block, and they backdash? They're giving up space. this is street fighter after all. pretty important stuff. They want to keep focus backdashing, sweet, go find yourself a place in the corner where i'll murder you.
The ONLY use focus has is to absorb one hit and counter it. You don't get to absorb all of them, like parry, and if you didn't succesfully absorb one, there's a very high chance of you getting punished, and it seldomly results in good offensive pressure if you do dash in anyways.
this explains pretty clearly why focus isn't a common facet of high level play. It's a situational move that is severely matchup dependant. Not a gameplay mechanic that instantly makes characters like Remy totally useless.
No, in SF3 if you mistime a parry most of the time you crouch for a second or take a step forward which is unpunishable. If you're using parry a lot in mixup situations you are using it wrong; the key is to use it in footsie situations where the opponent is very unlikely (if they are even able) to hit you at the other height for the couple of frames that you attempt the parry.
Focus attack is still dumb because at footsie range you can hold it and safely backdash away if your opponent doesn't press anything, but parry is much worse.
Norieaga, post: 6466379, member: 12841 wrote:
A big problem with focus attacks is that, despite being universal, some characters obviously have superior focus attacks to others. Should have been even across the board.
bbq sauce, post: 6466323, member: 3667 wrote:
SRK mashing gets less effective, yes.
But, the prevalence of of SRK fadc's as a momentum shift forces you to stop at certain points, because there's no reason not to do it, and risk/reward ends up in the favor of the defender.
And because you have to stop, now there's multiple facets to what I can do, by having the meter. You reach a point wherein you are going to have to stop because of my DP, instead I just walk forward and jab you, now it's advantage: me. Or if I want to get away from you, and gain my ground back, I can back dash, or I could get really ballsy and straight up throw you. Sure, this is frame-trap bait. But, because the reward of my DP fadc is wayy better than the reward of your frame trap, you, as the attacker are at MY mercy, you're attacking, but you're playing my game. That's stupid.
Granted, the DP in itself creates this situation on wake up in every game, but, there's a lot more advantage to a knockdown situation, opposed to SF4 where every pressure situation leads to it.
I understand that the systems of any game will mold into a meta game, and obviously one cannot expect them to always be the same between every game, but, the way the cards fall in SF4 it makes a very fundamentally flawed metagame.
HAV, post: 6466486, member: 536 wrote:
KOF 13 really is the shit though.
Kayroh, post: 6466310, member: 7978 wrote:
I like how you listed ST for fundementals, but you have an issue with 3 frame DPs.
Vulpes, post: 6466405, member: 57311 wrote:
First you hate on universal mechs and then you state they shouldn't be different but even? And completly disregard that every character has a different throw (as well as different buttons obviously), too?
yomipower, post: 6465293, member: 53955 wrote:
You know, the 4f reversal window wouldn't be so much of a problem if the game wouldn't keep "rolling" it everytime you try to mash out uppercuts and what not. If the game would give you just a single chance to make your reversal and all subsequent mashing would be invalid and not counted towards it, it could kind of work. I hope this maked sense.
But other than that, easy inputs/shortcuts, stupid nerfs, fadc, comeback mechanics, yadda yadda. Nobody won't care, remember or play SF4 10 years from not, when instead something like ST is forever
Norieaga, post: 6466527, member: 12841 wrote:
If they absolutely have to be included, then they should be even, yes. Reason being that the focus attack can be very powerful when used with the right character. Cody and Fei-Long, for example, have great focus attacks. Hell, focus attacks have all but eliminated long-range projectiles. You get to build "free" meter, sure, but at the cost of giving your opponent ultra.
pootnannies, post: 6466536, member: 3856 wrote:
if you like defensive play then you might like sf4 more but if you're into mixups and mindgames then you're going to get frustrated with it. to each his own i guess.
Infil, post: 6466541, member: 5090 wrote:
So *that's* what I did wrong vs Mago's Sagat at Canada Cup. I didn't focus enough tiger shots!
Also, something is wrong with giving someone a better focus attack than someone else? What's the difference between... giving Ryu a better sweep than someone else? Use your character's tools, sometimes that involves focus and sometimes it doesn't. Lots of characters are solid in this game that don't use focus much (Balrog, eg). I guess all ... projectiles should be the same? All throw ranges? Man, why am I even responding seriously to this.
Zack Hoagie, post: 6466111, member: 59453 wrote:
Keep in mind SRK really hated Third Strike for it's first five or so years too.
Norieaga, post: 6466573, member: 12841 wrote:
Fireballs at long-range give free ultra. Obviously you have to avoid EX projectiles but at long range you have enough time to react properly. Focus attacks can also rape certain footsie attacks, such as Akuma's sweep when he doesn't have U1. Guess right and focus? Great, maximum damage combo! For Fei-Long, that means the opponent is already in the corner. The consequence for a poorly-timed focus is not the same as that of, say, a poorly-timed SF3 parry. There is much more wiggle room with FA's. Its completely different from throw ranges and the like. The mechanic is exclusive to SF4, its not a staple of the SF franchise.
Also, responding to your post below...
You're right: its quite hard sometimes to be a defensive player in SF4. Part of that has to do with...FOCUS ATTACKS. Hence why characters like Fei-Long dominate, notwithstanding his amazing rekka.
Infil, post: 6466559, member: 5090 wrote:
You listed vortexes on your list of things you hate about the game... don't you think this somewhat scratches the mixup itch some people have? Since AE, defensive characters have had quite a few more difficult matchups with strong offensive characters. I think that defensive play in SF4 is actually pretty difficult now, and it's probably more frustrating (certainly, it's a lot harder) to be a defensive player these days.
pootnannies, post: 6466636, member: 3856 wrote:
yeah it's technically a mixup, you're right about that, but it's rather repetitive and boring (imo). gouken has shit defensive options and gets shut down by obvious vortexes from akuma because of all his option-selects. i believe it's the same with guile in that matchup but not as bad.
in previous sf games you didn't always have to come in with a safe jump cross up after a hard knockdown because other options from the ground were also quite viable and a little less risky. with vortex it's too autopilot and is always the best option for those characters who have them. the only risk is if you mistime it which for most isn't that hard. if vortexes carried more risk to do then it wouldn't be so stupid but then again there would be less momentum. if vortexes are exciting for some people then more power to them but for me it's not. i'm not saying vortexes are stupid as a fact but just how i feel about them. i should have added imo after that statement.
NewGen, post: 6463732, member: 423 wrote:
the series devolved after 3S, it's a step backwards to what Gems Chen calls "Real Street Fighter," that's bs. It's more or less a rehash/remake of a 15 year old game and all of the said things above.
Infil, post: 6466660, member: 5090 wrote:
I understand that some people may dislike vortexes. It's not as big of a deal to me, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't for other people.
I guess my response to your argument is that vortexes (with all those option selects) are just designed to get people to try and block. Once you block the vortex and you pressed 50 extra buttons to make sure they didn't reversal or backdash, you now have them in block stun with frame advantage... and NOW you can run these meaningful mixups from the ground that you mention... throw mixups, frame traps, walk back walk forward mixups, overheads, etc. All these options still exist in the series, you just have to first block the initial vortex to see them (which is varying degrees of difficulty). If you're watching a match between Akuma and a person with good defense, you tend to see a ton of creative non-vortex offense, because the vortex is such a set play that it can be predicted and reacted to a little more easily than what comes after it's blocked.
But it requires a pretty good amount of game knowledge to block a vortex, and at mid-level play (and online) it's really hard, so the game can degenerate into what you describe at times.
gaemmk, post: 6466855, member: 23153 wrote:
the only problem i have with sf4 is the safe corner. i've never played a fg with safe corners like sf4. it used to be that you didn't want to go into a corner because you would die, but not in sf4. the jumping allows idiots to jump over and over and you can't do anything to stop them unless your character can jump really high.
Infil, post: 6467152, member: 5090 wrote:
gaemmk, post: 6467225, member: 23153 wrote:
if you get cornered in 3s and most fg you die. if you get cornered in sf4, you can maneuver more easily because neutral jumping can be spammed easily, and also there's no universal overhead to keep people honest...(i'm a very aggressive player).
have you not noticed that people are content to just squat corners because they know you can't do shit to them. i remember listening to renic and 5star talk about not wanting to be in a corner in 3s, but i swear to god i see morons in sf4 jump all the way back into corners and squat. you can't jump at them, so all you can do is low forward, overhead if you have a quick overhead character, or move yourself back to get better position to safe jump(even though doing this will let them escape). crossing them up in the corner works better for certain characters, but i don't want to corner myself.
everything else that everyone seems to complain about is fairly easy to navigate, but not being able to corner rape is very annoying. that's all i was saying.