Ask Us Anything: KOF FAQ & Advice Corner

Laban

I dunno where to start and I'm lazy. But I've noticed a lot of questions going on in the General Discussion thread and people haphazardly making new threads that are being decomposed.

So I'll start this thread off fresh without pre-posting any common questions and answers. I'll start adding some things to the first posts once I start seeing more repeat questions that have been answered.

Ask, and you shall receive.

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Laban

Reserved for Future use.

Terrastorm

General strategies for dealing with corner pressure without meter or a DP? I don't want to list specific characters because it a problem I have in a lot of matches.

Laban

Terrastorm, post: 6479259, member: 6784 wrote:

General strategies for dealing with corner pressure without meter or a DP? I don't want to list specific characters because it a problem I have in a lot of matches.

Personally, I just block a lot until there is an actual gap in their block string. Like eventually they may want to go for an empty hop or something an Option Select cl.C/D is a tool that helps back them off while getting damage. Or waiting for an opportune moment to use something like a st.A/B to anti air their hop. If things get really desperate and you are a bit more ballsy, you could try to simply just predict a hop and trying running underneath and getting out of there. Another thing is that if you're good at anti-airing their hops with anti-hop, ground attacks, they may want to start full jumping and doing things like that. There you could use those opportunities to simply walk under cr.B anti-air if you don't have a good vertical anti-air attack ready for usage. Typically if the opponent ends a blockstring with a heavy attack or a special or something, they more or less ended their offensive and you have as much of a chance of turning around the momentum as they have restarting it. So from a neutral advantage it depends on how the spacial tug-of-war goes.

I think there is no situation where you really need a good, invulnerable reversal or meter to get out of. But I think any of the main three fat crouching characters on block might have trouble with Kyo's j.CD on crouch block. That shit is a nightmare to deal with or get out of. In lieu, those three fat characters should have enough tools to never be put in that spot in the first place if they exercise good spacing. The three characters being largest vertically on crouch are Daimon, Raiden, and Maxima.

But yeah there isn't any "easy" solution. It just requires good blocking and "knowing" when your opponent does something that gives you leeway and you must "know" the answer of getting out or reversing momentum and control. I block too much to the point I get guard broken and in XIII that's more a big deal since it gives a free combo rather than a free 2-in-1 like old games. But yeah, you just need to know the gaps in which you could press buttons and win and keep blocking until that situation arises or the opponent gives an opportunity to escape and they're not baiting you into doing it.

needles09

Hey, I'm New to KoF in general and I've been playing with my friend a lot, and he is really good, and I've progressed a lot playing with him. My biggest problem is that I can't figure out 2 things. How to jump in properly, and how to anti air properly. My team (in my sig) has, for some reason, the worlds hardest time anti airing Shen, or King, and yet whenever I jump at my friend, I have to either do my jump D or C super early to get a counter hit or beat out his normal, but then I can't get a combo off it, or wait, and then he either jumps up and punishes me, crouches and punishes me, or just blocks, and I'm super sad about everything. :( I basically just need some explainations or tips about Jumping in or anti airing someone with normals with my characters.

Also if someone has some Iori taco kick set ups that would be amazing... lol

LiftedResearch

What's a good blockstring with Hwa? Or rather, what are good ways to keep corner pressure on?

Laban

needles09, post: 6479530, member: 34318 wrote:

Hey, I'm New to KoF in general and I've been playing with my friend a lot, and he is really good, and I've progressed a lot playing with him. My biggest problem is that I can't figure out 2 things. How to jump in properly, and how to anti air properly. My team (in my sig) has, for some reason, the worlds hardest time anti airing Shen, or King, and yet whenever I jump at my friend, I have to either do my jump D or C super early to get a counter hit or beat out his normal, but then I can't get a combo off it, or wait, and then he either jumps up and punishes me, crouches and punishes me, or just blocks, and I'm super sad about everything. :( I basically just need some explainations or tips about Jumping in or anti airing someone with normals with my characters.

Also if someone has some Iori taco kick set ups that would be amazing... lol

Well to start with a primer, here's this link to spacing in general (made by Sparkster): http://wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Strategy

To specifically cover your question, I'd say you first have to study the types of normals your opponent's character has at disposal for anti-air and air-to-air situations. From there, you can use that knowledge and apply it by finding the normals and angles of approach that would either beat out your opponent's normals, or attack from angles that are optimal for you and would make the opponent second guess whether or not to commit anti-airing. If you're playing spacing/zoning characters that have higher hop arcs that are not intended for fast high/low/empty into throw mix-ups like Iori or Kyo, then the goal isn't necessarily to hit with an overhead but to just get on top of the opponent and establish pressure, force bad rolls or jumps, and punish the opponent. For example, Mai could hop in from a further distance just so that the tip of j.D barely touches Shen Woo just as she's about to land on the ground. It's a difficult angle for Shen to control because if Mai didn't commit to the j.D, he'd whiff a cr.C or st.A or would be counter-hit if he finally was in the range to actually "hit" the j.D when it comes out. Once Mai is in, even if she was blocked, she could apply a lot of cl.A, cr.C, Ryuuenbu pressure and just keep pressuring and chipping the opponent while she mixes up her ways of approach and changes her aerial momentum with stuff like well spaced dives.

Those are just some generalities for now and there's that spacing section. After you read that or if you already read it, then please feel free to ask further and specific questions that may arise.

In regards to Taco set ups, a few basic ones are like one cr.B or light attack on block at point blank, then hyper hopping over and tacoing. I noticed if I do two crouching light attacks on block, Taco won't activate as it normally would (I do j.6B actually, holding forward "after" I crossed over the opponent so technically it would be j.4B once I reach that side); but, from that spacing j.C would cross up crouching characters. Another basic set up is just to do a hop-in j.C then just hyper hop over the character to hit them with a taco. After a Taco, you could actually hop forward and do a taco without hyper hopping. But otherwise in most situations, it requires a hyper hop. I don't like doing super jump tacos because those usually could be anti-aired or crouched underneath if I used the spacing that would have worked on standing characters.

LiftedResearch, post: 6479609, member: 3473 wrote:

What's a good blockstring with Hwa? Or rather, what are good ways to keep corner pressure on?

Most of Hwa Jai's great pressure is actually due to his great normals rather than special moves. So to perform well with him, you have to have a good understanding of spacial control and setting up frametraps with him. A common tool for one is just doing cl.C at point blank on block since it leave Hwa Jai more or less at neutral advantage from that point. From there, he could further pressure with something like a sweep, Far D to cover good ground and air control while being +2 or something after block, run back in to continue pressure, or simple anticipate the opponent trying to escape the trap by being ready to anti-air or air-to-air a jump out or punish a roll.
Another good tool to use is st.CD since it's usage is quite similar to Far D, except with a slightly lower vertical hitbox. In lieu of that, it has lower body invincibility, reaches further horizontally, and is largely fast and safe on block.
Another common tool is being able to threaten with slide and knowing which ranges that slide is safe. Being able to slide at any given moment to anti-air the opponent and combo into a knockdown or HD combo will greatly extend your space of control. Typically after cl.C from point blank, stuff like slide is unsafe on block. But from spacings such as cr.B x3, st.B xx Slide or cr.A > cl.C xx Slide, slide is safe on block. If you do slide from unsafe ranges, you can cancel into qcf+P to make it safe. Just note that you have to delay the cancel or Hwa Jai will be pushed out way too far and be vulnerable. Usually deeper in the slide, the better since there is less of a gap in between the slide and the qcf+P to make the slide safe. cl.C xx Slide xx qcf+P is a bit trickier to make safe since if you do it too early you're done, but if you do it too late to make it actually connect there is a gap for the opponent to DP in between. But otherwise, qcf+P is one means of making slide safe. Also note that at the ranges slide is naturally safe, qcf+P will more or less always whiff. Vice versa, if qcf+P could connect from slide on block that means that slide would have been unsafe.
Another thing to note is that Hwa Jai's air dp+B is -1 on block, and there are ways to space it to make it perfectly safe. I have no specific technique in setting this up, I just feel it out and visually commit to doing the dive and try to make it safe. That and I do TK'd Dive kinda like Cammy's TK'd Dives in SSFIV.

So with Hwa Jai, I don't really try to open up opponents by forcing them to change the way they have to think they have to block like I do with Iori or Kyo hop pressure. I just set up good pressure and force them to do something stupid and they get hit for it. Then I can try to sneak in a few slide xx dp+D against people who are sleeping on the job that are hopping/jumping in or if they're caught whiffing a normal or stand blocking. Then I change up the pace of things with a well placed command grab in situations that would feel awkward for them to expect one. But yeah I create walls of control with stuff like j.CD, j.D, Far D, Slide, st.B, st.A, cr.D, cr.C, cl.C, cr.A, cr.B, st.CD, and qcf+A. I don't really like canceling into his qcb+B attack or his other heels because they usually end my offensive momentum, just all so I could chip them. I'd rather just work for the guard break or set up something better. I didn't mess around with Drink Super enough to comment on that though. Side notes: I like doing air qcb+B from back dashes and changing it up to qcb+D once they start to try to run in on me. I also like TK air ex qcb+K since it covers so much range safely. Then I like to do pressure such as j.D xx air qcb+B > slide or something (it also combos on hit.)

Feel free to ask anything more about Hwa Jai or ask for clarifications.

Titus Groan

Is there any character similar to Chris from '97-'98?

sung_moon

how do i deal/punish (if possible) athena's f.B air spiral move when they don't go for the followup and kula's hurricane kick? tried jumping,mashing c.B with iori/saeki, but he kept frametrapping me with c.C, my roll would get throw if he went f.C and i felt like the only thing i could of done was guardcancel stuff or dp. and kula's hurricane kick was just locking me down with c.B/s.B followups. could of been the online but i just felt trapped

Laban

Titus Groan, post: 6487148, member: 54219 wrote:

Is there any character similar to Chris from '97-'98?

Not really, Chris is pretty unique in his air control and moderately decent grounded control. There are a few characters that boast well in air-to-air control but they play like themselves, not Chris. So yeah, Chris is Chris and there is no substitute.

sung_moon, post: 6487229, member: 9377 wrote:

how do i deal/punish (if possible) athena's f.B air spiral move when they don't go for the followup and kula's hurricane kick? tried jumping,mashing c.B with iori/saeki, but he kept frametrapping me with c.C, my roll would get throw if he went f.C and i felt like the only thing i could of done was guardcancel stuff or dp. and kula's hurricane kick was just locking me down with c.B/s.B followups. could of been the online but i just felt trapped

Athena's air f.B is traditionally safe on block. The only other way I can think of punishing it is guard rolling the butt and running forward and hit her before she touches down; but, she can troll and just cancel into air qcb+B or something. Just have to respect the move. Kula's Ray Spin is punishable by EX Iori's dp+C, always. That's my only answer to it so far other than 1 frame command grabs or avoiding being put in the position in the first place to be forced to block Ray Spin. Kula is just a dumb character in general, even if she isn't top tier in this game. Her general design is lopsided and stupid so I either play in a way that I either fuck her up or get fucked. So I just try to space her out in the neutral game and get a chance for a knockdown mess her up on okizeme with safe-hops. But yeah, my counter to Kula is EX Iori since that shuts down her safety with Ray Spin. In old games, it was more legit, st.B was better than XIII Console, qcf+A had more range, etc. etc. I really hate Kula.

EmX

What is the final word on the netcode patch Laban? The thread(s) are always ambiguous and people seem to always be posting about the placebo effect and not the actual delay.

Laban

EmX, post: 6487767, member: 1463 wrote:

What is the final word on the netcode patch Laban? The thread(s) are always ambiguous and people seem to always be posting about the placebo effect and not the actual delay.

Marginally better for local games that you felt originally should have been decent pre-patch but weren't. So now those games are better. I still won't have serious games against Socal because the lag affects the finer, more minute timings of certain combos and what not. So yeah, the best way to use net play is just to go on forums and search up local people and just friend them on PSN. Online still isn't good enough to the point where you could play random Ranked or Player matches like you can do in SSFIV or something.

So online did get objectively better, but not enough to actually move and shake things. Just eased certain matchmaking issues, made certain local connections better, and widen the range of what is considered a 4 bar connection.

With my connections pre and post patch, nothing has really changed. I just play wired, Norcal connections and it still feels the same because they already are what they were, good/decent. Norcal to Socal became ever so slightly more "smooth" but didn't stop the slow lag of things.

No Limitz

Could you go over the Billy match up in general?
I haven't had a long time to play the console version so I usually end up giving him too much respect when playing against him.
I'm not sure how to approach him in the neutral game and I usually end up in the corner pretty fast where I just get locked down from 6A, close 5C(I swear he can do this from outside the "close" range lol) and hop normals.

Havatchu

Here's one.

How many times with King can you loop Trap Shoot to Tornado kick in the corner without using any bars? Especially HD.
I think I've done it like 3 times ONCE. Usually I just get it to work twice.

Now with HD bar I think I've done it 4 times but could have possibly gotten to 6 before the bar ran empty.

Nagato/Kisame1992

I got a good one. Any idea how to link K's Heat Drive DM into I guess backdash, minute spike(qcb+a)? I can barely do it, but is there an easier way to help me understand? Any estimated frame data or something to help me out?

Spαrkster

Billy's close C is pretty damn slow, and even if the activation range is somewhat large if he messes up he'll get a far C which in all respects is a terrible attack. cr.C would be a better choice for frametrapping with Billy, and most of his basic pressure comes from j.D, j.C, and j.CD along with cr.B pressure combined with f.A.

His best pokes for stopping grounded advances are cr.A, f.A, and hcf+P and other attacks like st.CD/b.A work but they're much risker on whiff. cr.A has a good length to it, but it's slow and Billy can't continually do it over and over to push you out like how Yashiro could frametrap st.B into itself continually in KOF '98. You have to acknowledge it's there, but it shouldn't be hitting you multiple times in a row and you can still hop over it, counterpoke it, or get in to a closer range where he wouldn't want to use it. f.A is an annoying attack that Billy can pressure with and use once you break through cr.A's effective range. If you crouch and block it or block from far, you should only be hit once by the move. The main reason this attack is difficult to deal with is that Billy will probably press a button like afterward and frametrap with a cancelable normal into it again, and the best way out of this is to set up a recording of Billy looping you in a blockstring and then find a poke that can counter hit him out of the startup. Many cr.C type uppercuts work, and you may have luck with a st.A even. There's also the riskier option of DPing, though backdashing or rolling backwards is less overtly punishable and you can afford to sneak those two escape methods in occasionally unless you're cornered. Otherwise you can block until he does something else or until he's pushed out to a less ideal spacing where he can't trap into f.A. hcf+P is good and all, but the recovery's thick enough that he can't really keep throwing it out once you start moving in on him. You can hop it as well, but you have to keep in mind that he has qcb+P and his EX DP and cr.C. hcf+P is like a more extreme cr.A, and I believe you can Guard Roll the C version to punish him should he do the flame followup on block.

j.C attacks at a great angle that's difficult to deal with, but if Billy doesn't time the attack late on the descent of a hop or neutral hop you can crouch under it. You can acually hit Billy out of the startup of the move by htting his stick just like how you can hit Dhalsim out of his limbs from fullscreen. If he's closer, he'll be in optimal j.CD range (or rather, you're so close that j.C may whiff due to lack of close vertical control) and he'll either time it early as to possibly air-to-air or late to make sure it works as an air-to-ground. If he's doing it early, you should be able to crouch under that and punish him, though traditional normal anti-airs are likely to lose if he's just barely tipping you from his jump-in. If he times it late, you punish oppositely by hitting him with an anti-air or air-to-air which will effectively hit him before the attack comes out or simply win by hitbox proximities. You could also DP it, and since he needs to be somewhat close to hit you with j.CD you don't have to second guess yourself like if you wanted to DP j.C from max range. j.D isn't much of a problem any more than any basic jump-in is, and j.A is his absolute air-to-air so you either have to bait it and make it whiff and then punish with a low, or meet it with a better air-to-air.

There's also blocking and patience, which you use to buy time to recognize and punish a pattern or some sloppy error.


King's best meterless corner HD combo is: ...df.D (HD) cl.D df.D xx [dp+K (HDC) hcb+B] x4, ender. The trick is to start by sliding into Trap Shoot, and you do this by canceling her slide late which allows her to get in deeper, thus preventing the special from whiffing.

I haven't tested K's odd instant Minute Spike 'OTG', but if you want to do it instantly from a backdash you should buffer it as 2144+K. Backdashes have an input leniency, so it may be easier than doing 2147+K to 'Tiger Knee' it.

Laban

Spαrkster, post: 6490701, member: 21577 wrote:

snip

Yo, mang. Just as a suggestion, I think it'd help if you use quotes so it could alert people that we responded and it's easier to see where their advice starts and ends. Sweet

SF-Zero2

So messing with Kim and his overhead....strange properties.
F+LK done alone overheads on crouch/blocking opponent, but I've noticed that if I'm hitting a crouch blocking opponent(i.e. cr.LK,cr.LK) and input F+LK that the opponent can crouch block the overhead if F+LK comes out too quickly. EX Kyo's overhead does the same thing in the same situation. What makes the overhead blockable? I tried it out in versus and rubberbanded a second controller into crouchblock position and despite the controller never going into a standing block, the overhead is blocked. When I do the overhead clean, it connects.

Also with Kim.....his overhead done by itself can't combo into his specials, but I've noticed that if I hit my opponent with any light attack, HP or standing HK(canceling 2nd hit) into F+LK, I can combo from the overhead. What causes that? It looks like the opponent has time to recover in between the Normal going to F+LK, and normals don't combo into F+LK. Is it something to do with hitstun still being active that changes the combo ability for F+LK? Seems like it could be reversed with proper timing, but what changes so Kim can combo from F+LK?

And finally....what the hell do I do with Kim/EX Kyo versus Clarks who do nothing but his charge punch on reaction and command throw when I get in close? I'm not worried about the RED command grab glitch with EX Kyo,(if it even exists anymore), and I've had success poking with his Standing HK because Kyo's airborne..... but having real trouble getting in on Clark and maintaining pressure, especially with Kim.

Spαrkster

SF-Zero2, post: 6494721, member: 3819 wrote:

snip

No, Kim's f.B command normal is too slow to combo into by chain canceling into it. Like you observed, it's an overhead when done raw, but by canceling an attack into it it ceases to hit overhead but it then gains the ability to be canceled into specials and DMs. There were plenty of command attacks that followed the same pattern in older KOF games, though in XIII a select few maintain their high/low property even when canceled into (Robert's f.B, for instance, will always hit low and it can always be canceled into specials). Because Kim and Kyo can't combo into their f.B, it mainly serves for creating frametrap blockstrings (As Kim, you can do cr.B cr.B cr.B f+B xx qcb+B to capitalize upon the range and cancel property, and that's just one odd example) and not for doing hitconfirms.

Clark's Gatling Attack charge punch move is completely unsafe on block. If you can bait it and punish, you should quickly discourage him from using the attack. Just keep in mind that the EX version is startup and projectile invuln so it's not worth trying to counterpoke. Clark gets pushed back slightly so that you may not be able to get a cl.C, but must characters can hit Clark with a cr.C instead.

You can use heavy normals for checking Clark and ending blockstrings, but for more direct pressure you should be using light attacks like cr.B which you can hitconfirm or use to get frame advantage for frametraps or set up for cross ups or bait out his command grab with hops/staying just outside it's range. Battle him from the neutral game with your better pokes and neutral hop with a good air-to-air or be ready with a reaction DP when he starts using j.CD. If you get a knockdown, stay in on him since he doesn't have an easy way out of offensive pressure unless he wants to risk using a his grab or charge punch, both of which can be severely punished if he guesses wrong.

Klaige

So would this be considered the appropriate thread to get advice/critique on match vids? I know we have the main video thread, but we just had a local ranbat and I'd like to post up a few matches and get some general input on the areas im struggling and such. My apologies for not posting a true specific question but I didn't want to assume and shit up the thread with a bunch of match videos asking for critique.

SF-Zero2

Spαrkster, post: 6495087, member: 21577 wrote:

snip
Clark's Gatling Attack charge punch...... Just keep in mind that the EX version is startup and projectile invuln so it's not worth trying to counterpoke.

That explains a lot of the difficulties I was having with him.....I haven't faced a lot of Clarks, but typically they've been Point choices so not a lot of meter to worry about initially.

Thanks for the info!

huckles98

I just bought the game for casual enjoyment and to add to my collection of FGs. I would still like to enjoy it online though, but I can't find any games in any of the modes. I know SNK isn't as popular in the states but wow... 0 games on XBL on the newest edition of the game? Are there some ports I need to open other than the standard XBL ports?

Edit: Oh wow I feel dumb. I bought KOF XII... If I weren't a collector I would return it.

Laban

Klaige, post: 6495153, member: 2261 wrote:

So would this be considered the appropriate thread to get advice/critique on match vids? I know we have the main video thread, but we just had a local ranbat and I'd like to post up a few matches and get some general input on the areas im struggling and such. My apologies for not posting a true specific question but I didn't want to assume and shit up the thread with a bunch of match videos asking for critique.

If you post video links using Spoiler Tags, I'm willing to watch the videos and it'll help not clutter up the thread. I don't know exactly how to use the Spoiler function on SRK, haha, so if you can search around and find out how that'd be great. But yeah, I'm willing to watch people play if they post their stuff. It'd be easier to post a video with a specific time stamp of when you play or just to simple upload the specific matches that you want me to watch so I can analyze and give feedback.

Spαrkster

Klaige, post: 6495153, member: 2261 wrote:

So would this be considered the appropriate thread to get advice/critique on match vids? I know we have the main video thread, but we just had a local ranbat and I'd like to post up a few matches and get some general input on the areas im struggling and such. My apologies for not posting a true specific question but I didn't want to assume and shit up the thread with a bunch of match videos asking for critique.

If you can narrow down the number of matches to a select key few, I can try giving it a streamed video commentary.

Klaige

Appreciate it gentlemen. It'll just be 3 matches from our last local ranbat i'm interested in getting critique on. Once they are uploaded i'll get them added in a spoiler tag. Should be up by tomorrow.

phoenixnl

Spαrkster, post: 6495087, member: 21577 wrote:

There were plenty of command attacks that followed the same pattern in older KOF games, though in XIII a select few maintain their high/low property even when canceled into (Robert's f.B, for instance, will always hit low and it can always be canceled into specials).

Low attacks always retain their low property. Also in older KOF's. It's because whether something is low is determined by the hitbox of a move, not by a 'flag'.

When you cancel into a move, it usually becomes cancelable, but loses all 'flags'.

So it loses 'overhead', 'hard knockdown', 'stagger' etc.

Klaige

Alright so as promised I've got 3 matches to share. To give a little background, I've been playing fighters since 2003 competitively but this is my first KoF i've been learning at a tourney level. Of the three matches, the two with Murphagator and Magictophat are the one's im most interested in since they were my two losses in this ranbat. These two also happen to be the people I play casuals with constantly, so we are very aware of each other's styles and habits.

I'll take any and all criticism's on my play, and don't shy away from being harsh or pointing out some obviously stupid things I'm doing. I usually have a good idea of where I'm making mistakes in my play but as I said, this is my first KoF so I very much want to know where to look to improve my overall game. Any comments/criticism, no matter how general or specific are very welcome and much appreciated. I really enjoy KoFXIII and I haven't put this much effort into a fighter since Guilty Gear died out so I am devoted to becoming a strong player in this game, and more than anything I just want to see the game succeed, so expanding my own knowledge to share with others is never a bad thing.

Thanks again in advance for taking some time out to take a look at these.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Laban

Klaige, post: 6497710, member: 2261 wrote:

snip

Okay, I'll be writing this post as I'm watching the videos and I'll be taking notes as well.

What I'm noticing in the first round of the first video is that you seems to understand the basic concepts of the close game with EX Kyo. Made a few judgmental errors there and there but overall it's solid and such. I haven't played too much against Kensou but I'm assuming that his second rekka is unsafe on block and that I feel you could use cl.C to punish it. From what I've seen, you responded with Aragami. So I don't know if you intended to do cl.C xx Aragami or something so I don't know if you're making executional errors or if you simply don't know if you could punish it. Need to test that out in training mode to see if it's punishable. Otherwise a good start

With the second round, I feel like your main way of approaching mid-screen is to use jumps; I generally see full jumps and I'm assuming it's because you're anticipating Andy's projectiles. While you're doing that, he tags you a lot with early hop j.CD. It's a good move, but if you actually ran forward and cl.C'd or just "felt out the footsie situation" and just waited for him to do that so he'd whiff over you while crouching and you could have cr.B trip anti-aired him to get a full combo. You also tried to do an HD combo, which was good, but it seemed as if you didn't pay attention to the amount of meter you had and went for Final Showdown as if you were going to Max Cancel it. In that situation I would have done as many qcf+C, hcb+C xx qcf+A loops as I can before I ended it with qcf+C, hcb+C xx Neomax for the optimal 2 Stock HD combo (at least optimal for me and it does about 650 Damage for it.) So being more mindful of the meter you have is another aspect to work on.

Going back to the first issue, it's important to get used to variable ways of spacing ground normals to get the desired anti-air without committing against weird stuff. So getting used to concepts such as run-forward cl.C is something you could work on. Your Saiki in the first game is an example of lack of fully utilizing ground normals. There were a few instances where Andy either hopped in or jumped in at you where you could have simply pressed cl.C and it would have won as an anti-air because it's 2-3 frames of start up. Instead you blocked and let an opportunity slip away. Otherwise I liked your general ideas of spacing with sweeps canceled into projectiles, using his Far D sobat, and I saw some instances of you trying to space with hop j.C for air-to-air. The latter didn't go so well, but I feel there's more you could be doing in trying to coax the opponent to go in the spaces you want them to go into before actually trying to hit them in that spot. For me, I gauge how much the opponent wants to close in on me, hold a neutral game/position, or tries to keep away before trying to set up for a particular normal. So at times I try retreating while covering some good ranges such as hopping backwards with Saiki j.B and landing on the ground to instantly use a qcf+A and try to see what kind of strategies my opponent employs trying to get in. So if they happen to see my j.B as a "flag" for me using a qcf+A, thus being a cue for them to jump over my means of trying to "keep them out," then I run forward and cl.C right underneath to anti-air them if they committed to either a hop or a jump or use a hop forward j.B to air-to-air a full jump so I can get a cross-under mix-up by running underneath afterwards. Then with the next "yomi layer" if they feel out an air-to-air attempt and try to do something like a hop forward, early j.CD with Andy, just crouch, wait, and punish it with cr.B or cr.C anti-air. Stuff like this. These kinds of concepts I am making a video about but I have yet to really finish it yet. So hopefully I can expand more on the far/mid-range tactics more easily with visuals later on.

But yeah, your Saiki is generally "there." It just needs to be fleshed out with better spacial understanding and anticipation but you're smart.

The first thing I saw in the King vs Shen Woo match-up is that you let a blockstring go that you could have guard rolled and get a full punish on. While you were cornered, she did cr.B x2, st.B, df.D xx Venom Strike. You could have guard rolled the df.D and let the Venom Strike whiff and you could have gotten an HD Combo to really close the match. You have 4 stocks and doing a corner HD combo surely would have gotten you a good 770+ or 800+ combo. Of course it's not good to just randomly guard roll all the time because it could be baited, but if you know your opponent in and out and could react to the first 1 or 2 frames of 2-in-1 from the right normal into a special move, then guard rolling should be a bit more free. You still got the kill, which is good, but I don't know why that King player didn't block high and a great King player would have never really let you get in on her for free at all. So that guard roll opportunity would have been your best bet against any other King.

Second game: With EX Kyo you're being a bit overzealous with dp+P. Kensou isn't the best high/low mix-up character in the game so it's a bit better to simply just react to his hops or something with cl.C. Again, you're letting that second rekka get away and you're being hit with pretty telegraphed "frametraps" by Kensou's DP afterwards. You should be getting the punishes in the first place. Before you EX Kyo was killed, you could have waited and felt out that j.CD he hit you with and try to anti-air it with cr.C/cl.C/cr.B or something. So I feel you need to work on a bit more patience and try watching what the other guy may do. I feel like you're trying to get blockstrings and trying to move forward a bit much. EX Kyo is about close to mid-range spacial dominance and he doesn't need to move forward to do so, he can neutral hop, back hop, or stand still to hold his ground against counter approaches.

With Saiki, once more a few anti-air situations were let go. Didn't tech any of the throws Kensou attempted. The tech window is generally big in KOF and the way he threw you was really telegraphed. I understand in odd situations or during empty hops that a normal throw would work, but he ticked and walked forward as if it was SF and that's generally an obvious cue to tech. So I don't know if it was executional error on your part or if it's actually something for you to work on and react to. Either way, those throws should be getting you and you could have either counter poked the walk or teched.

With Shen Woo, you dropped the spaghetti hard. Missed a lot of cr.C anti-air situations. If you weren't sure if he'd empty hop, then doing cl.C OS would have blown him up (see Dandy_J's KOF tutorial.) But it felt like you got in an SF habit and wanted to neutral jump at times just so you'd feel more comfortable, but that would haven't been good if Kensou knew to cr.C or st.D you if you did that. It seemed like you were floundering around and mentally guard broken in that last round because you were about to be OCV'd and you weren't dealing with lolKensou rekka and frametraps that shouldn't have been working in the first place.

Third game: More missed anti-airs with EX Kyo. What Kensou is doing is early j.C because he knows that you're not wanting to stick out a limb because he already attacked first and you're scared of being hit by an overhead so you block early and forced to take pressure. Try to feel out and react to particular hop-ins and try to feel out the timing of them. I think with that early j.C he was doing, I think that's crouchable so you could have waited and just reacted to him hopping then sticking out a j.C then continue to crouch to get a combo on him. If you noticed he hopped and didn't do anything yet, that's a signal he's going to delay the timing of a jump/hop attack so that it will hit you on the way down so it would hit a croucher. That's when you either actually stick out a limb like cr.C or st.A, or actually react and block. Otherwise I think you're able to crouch those early j.C's and punish with a cr.B > whatever combo. Then yeah, getting hit by more lolframetraps.

In Andy vs Saiki, I feel that after blocking a Zanei-ken, you could check Andy afterwards with a Far D rather than cr.B. Also you let a lot of times where you could have anti-aired him with st.A get away.

King vs Shen Woo: You missed punishing a slide that she let herself go on block. Then later she did Tornado Kick on block which is a free punish for you. Especially since she did it on you in the corner and it was the B Version. So yeah, dropped the soap once more.

Second Video:
* First Game - Once more you're mostly just moving forward with EX Kyo, and that's when you get hit by stuff like Ralf's full jump forward j.CD and stuff like that. Cool on the empty hops into throw and what not. Generally spacing incorrectly against Benimaru. Go into the lab and try testing anti-airs and air-to-airs against him. You're either not pressing any buttons when you should, or you press the wrong button at the right time and you still lose (e.g. Shen Woo's cr.C losing to Benimaru's cross-up j.D.) Then you're dropping combo opportunities.

* Second Game - Against Ralf and against Benimaru in the last game, you're going for throw punishes at times when you could be getting cl.C. A good/bad player will just mash throw tech since they're able to tech even when they're thrown during the recovery of their attack. So try to practice doing bigger, guaranteed punishes. Yeah, you don't know how to space against Benimaru. Really hit up the lab and test out spacing against it will all sort of angles of approach or counter approach. Test and know when cr.C will hit or if st.A is optimal. Also his hop is arched higher than others so try working on reaction DP against it if you could. I wouldn't recommend reaction DP against stuff like a Ralf or Kyo hop, but try doing so against Benimaru.

Third Video:
* First Game - Need to stand block against RED Kick more, it's punishable on block if you stand block it.

* Second Game - Missed punishing a bunch of rolls. Getting used to those just take time and experience. Could have cl.C punished Kula when she did that slide. You did a throw but I think that's more executional error. I'm assuming you meant cl.C for something bigger.

Overall, you do somewhat well when up close and doing general pressure attack strings. But, you're not on point with your anti-airs and you're leaving gaps in your pressure because you generally move forward instead of maintaining ground to check the opponent, making sure they can't escape, then continue with pressure. Going on the offensive doesn't necessarily mean having to employ a mix-up or moving in. And your lack of a strong neutral game and ability to anti-air allows for the opponent to generate a momentum against you. The best thing you have is being able to wait with Shen Woo for them to do a jump and you super them. Otherwise most of the time you were landing damage was going for reaction supers as anti-air with Saiki or Shen Woo. Once you lost momentum, you almost never really recovered and are forced to take on pressure. And when you are put on the defensive, your lack of understanding of anti-airs and punishing guaranteed opportunities are squandered.

So you start off with good steam but lose out on momentum later on due to the many holes in your game and you scrap by with reversal super by Saiki and Shen Woo's explosions. So hit up the lab and try working on hold your space and working on anti-airs. If certain anti-airs lose against certain jump-ins by particular characters, exercise some imagination and try to find alternative ways of anti-airing or trying to air-to-air them instead from the appropriate angle.

Also work on punishes because there were too many times wasted where you could have gone for something big. If you feel like you're in walking distance to cl.C and punish, but get a throw because of it; then just run in. Even if it's a short distance, just run in and cl.C/D. Then yeah, punish Kensou rekkas because that second one should be unsafe.

Otherwise, I like how you utilize the rule of 2 outside of not anti-airing correctly. You attempt safe-hops/safe-jumps when given the opportunity, and you generally have a good head on your shoulders. A bit overzealous at times with reversal DP, but you're not that bad at all when it comes to that as there are those that are much worse. That's all I have to suggest at the moment based off your videos.

Klaige

Laban -

Thanks a ton for the detailed breakdown, I really appreciate it. I've definitely felt since I picked up KoF that my netural game is by far my weak point in my game. A lot of my habits and mindset I built up from playing Guilty Gear for the first 7 years of learning 2d fighters (and the ST after that), definitely show thorugh in my game. I definitely don't have that feel of when to back off on attempting pressure and just let the opponent hang themselves through their agression. I'm still very much trying to figure out the Anti-air game as well, and needing 5 or 6 moves to cover the entire anti-air anti-hop game has been a tough learning process for me, but getting specific examples like you've laid out here should help a great deal.

Just a couple notes, it's funny you mention not CD rolling to punish King on the Slide xx venom strike. As i mentioned Tophat and I play every week, and in our local tourney just last weekend, I actually punished with a CD roll into full HD for the kill when he did that same string, so unfortunately i out-thought myself and figured there was no way he would use it against my fully stocked shen. (doh).

Everytime you see me get a throw for a punish is definitely a big execution mistake, I'm always trying to do cl.C into whatever the best punish is i have available, but i defintely screw up the input buffer and get throw way more often than I intend to, something I'm working on quite a bit. You were also spot on when I hit the HD combo with Ex Kyo, I flat out read my meter wrong and thought I had 3 so I was planning a max cancel and just shot myself in the foot.

I'll definitely take the advice you've given to heart and spend a lot of time in training mode testing out my neutral game and overall punishes better. This being my first KoF there are a ton of nuances and things I just don't quite grasp yet, but having someone break it down piece by piece as you have will be a huge help, so thank you again for that. Hopefully I can have some vids in the future that show some improvements in those areas and then I can figure out the next step in improving my overall game.

RIDETHEPIG

how do i get duo lon to rip shirt when ko??? i ko w/ special move but it not work??

Laban

RIDETHEPIG, post: 6498688, member: 3773 wrote:

how do i get duo lon to rip shirt when ko??? i ko w/ special move but it not work??

Stop being a fucking scrub you piece of shit. Fuck out of here, bitch. Subhuman, bitch ass ho.

Klaige, post: 6498265, member: 2261 wrote:

snip

Anytime, yo. I'm always wanting to help with open arms and an open mind.

de BLOO

Laban, post: 6498754, member: 18048 wrote:

Stop being a fucking scrub you piece of shit. Fuck out of here, bitch. Subhuman, bitch ass ho.

I was going to ask a question but your domestic violences has scared me.


But seriously, any specific "rule of 2(or 3)" offensive set ups that Robert has in this game? I find myself limp dicked when I'm up close with him, and just mash lows then hyperhop into his BD command normal.

Laban

de BLOO, post: 6498836, member: 9972 wrote:

I was going to ask a question but your domestic violences has scared me.


But seriously, any specific "rule of 2(or 3)" offensive set ups that Robert has in this game? I find myself limp dicked when I'm up close with him, and just mash lows then hyperhop into his BD command normal.

For me, my basic hitconfirm is cr.B, cr.A. From there I can commit to another hop, a sweep, or st.A. If I hit with the cr.B, cr.A, I can cancel into f.B and go into whatever normal I want. Also abuse his j.D more. So I do stuff like cr.B, cr.A on block, then do a neutral hop or back hop into j.D. I do this so the opponent that wants to hop/run/walk forward will be tagged by my counter to counter approach. I do that coupled with Dives to be annoying. Another neat tool is st.CD xx Projectile. Imagine something like Ken's Far Roundhouse from Third Strike but it's cancelable. So it's a neat poke that goes over most lows and checks the opponent's spacial control. So I can do stuff like cr.B, cr.A > st.CD xx whatever as a block string. Or simply just go around and poke with cr.B, st.CD, projectiles, hop forward/back/neutral with j.D and j.CD, space Dives safely and annoyingly, and DP full jumps on reaction. Robert has a decent close game for Rule of 2 and has a great sweep and a good st.A/B/D and cr.C for anti-airing hops and jumps. Add in a command throw, he has some ways to mix up and do basic pressure up close. But I feel how he dominates is all in his spacing game mid-range, a range which I haven't done a tutorial video of yet.

But that's the general lowdown of things.

de BLOO

Thank you Laban.

Hitenryu

Any good way to deal with roberts and takumas flying kick keep getting blown up trying to AA it on reaction or punish.

I use K, Kensou, Nests Kyo.

yomipower

I have a question for SNK; Why is the unlocking of colors so retarded? Honestly, pick a character 40 times? I mean you can't even grind them on arcade mode, it's got to be either online or offline VS. Fuck you.

Hyun Sai

You can grind against random AI in VS mode.

Laban

Hitenryu, post: 6501205, member: 23573 wrote:

Any good way to deal with roberts and takumas flying kick keep getting blown up trying to AA it on reaction or punish.

I use K, Kensou, Nests Kyo.

All I could do really is either reaction DP, always try to maintain a spacing so that the dives would be unsafe on block so I could punish it on the ground, or be ready to neutral hop or neutral jump in a manner that the dive kick would land underneath me and I can punish on the way down. Those moves are intentionally good and frustrating because it really tests your ability to zone and space against these moves. Robert is just a really, really obnoxious character. In 98, he had safe dives, a guile sobat kick that was overhead, and a proximity unblockable that either lead into a chunky f.B > DP combo or a hit reset back into a cross under mix up into grappler okizeme. He's more watered down in this game and boring but his Dive is still kinda obnoxious coupled with his new cross up.

Spαrkster

Klaige, post: 6498265, member: 2261 wrote:

snip

I know Laban gave you a writeup, but I'm gonna give you the stream treatment.

http://www.twitch.tv/sparkster_

I'm starting at 23:00 CST, and I may also look over some matches from King of Fridays between Reynald and Mr. KOF.

I'll could something similar if anyone else needs a match critique since I'm hard pressed to find amazing matches right now.

Klaige

Spαrkster, post: 6504777, member: 21577 wrote:

Snip

Thanks Sparkster, I will for sure tune in sir. Always appreciate more insight, and i'm always down to support midwest streams.

the7k

Just went to my first KOF tournament. A poor performance on my part. I really want to improve though. I normally play Kula/Andy/Claw Iori, but my Kula was so bad I had to swap Kensou in mid-tourney and just adopt dacidbro's "Sweep -> Fireball" strategy (which worked surprisingly well, actually...), and my Andy was really poor as well.

Question 1: Are there any other quick characters in this game that can do great damage off a quick, standing low? This is one of the biggest tools I use with Iori, and my general game plan with him is to hound them with hopping overheads until they stop blocking low, then hit them with his s.B, follow with his f+A command normals, and end with a SDM or HD combo which'll do around 800+.

Question 2: What is the best way to deal with a good Duo Lon? The player using him (who ended up winning the tourney) kept saying that he has no way to open you up, his teleport left him vulnerable, that he was a mediocre character, blah blah blah, but I couldn't even begin to approach the guy. Soon as I got to him, it was Rekka Rekka Rekka Teleport, repeat. I couldn't find anyway to punish him once he started his dance. What is my game plan when approaching this character? What do I need to force him to do, and how do I avoid getting stuck in his Berserker Slash shenanigans?

Spαrkster

EX Kyo, Daimon, King, and Mr. Karate have low-hitting st.B attacks and I may be forgetting others. The thing is though, that many cr.B attacks are cancelable and hitconfirmable as well, so I don't particularly see your fascination with st.B over cr.B. With Hwa Jai you could 'hound' with st.A, st.B and especially cr.B and a cr.B can be chained into st.B into his slide which goes into anything, and likewise King can do the same. If you're just looking for a HD combo from a light hitconfirm, you can choose from pretty much the entire cast since cr.B cr.B st.B BC cl.C/D is nearly universal.

Rekkas > teleport has variable safety. First, if he ever has you cornered and then teleports into the corner you can punish him with a close normal into whatever move you want. Midscreen, try recording a dummy to do the blockstring and try finding a special that can punish the teleport. You'll need to input the special backwards since he'll cross you up, but fast, horizontal moves will blow him up. The EX teleport does recover faster, though not enough to make him completely safe since for instance an instant command grab will always punish him. With Kensou, I'd suggest try auto-correcting an EX DP or his grab DM and seeing if it can't punish the teleport. Otherwise a good universal option is to Guard Cancel Roll the second rekka: if he does the third one, it'll whiff and he'll be unable to cancel it to the teleport, which then leaves you with just enough time to run forward and punish him with a close normal.

Worst case you can just block and then play the neutral game once he flies to the other side of the screen. Get a knockdown and go wild since Duo Lon doesn't have any reversals outside his EX DM, and his EX teleport can be punished or thrown just like a roll.

the7k

Thanks Sparks.

I actually was trying Hwa Jai, but I screw up the timing going from cr.B to st.B too often for me to be able to rely on it. Sometimes I'll get it, other times I'll stand up and Hwa will just do nothing. If I have that hard a time doing it in Practice, I know it'll be impossible for me to do it under pressure. By comparison, Iori's st.B, fw+A, A is braindead easy to perform. There's no way I'm screwing that up - and after I do it, I can do a special, SDM, HD, whatever I feel like. Better yet, st.B, fw+A,A is safe enough that when it does get blocked, the enemy is pushed back far enough away that I don't have to worry too much about a reversal, depending on the match-up.

I'll definitely try some training stuff with Duo Lon, thanks!

GrayFox

kupô

what's the base gameplay of robert ?

thanks

EmX

Low-hitting standing normals are great for grapplers and certain setups because people reflexively start blocking if they're being harassed with a low hitting move and it's coming from standing - which makes it slightly more deceptive. As a combo tool you can take it or leave it.

It's subtle, but you can condition them to try to jump or duck/freeze to guard it and either option can be punished. Don't quote me on this but I'd imagine low hitting s.B have more active frames sometimes and a lot more range too.

AirLancer

Just to note, I'm pretty new to KOF in general, though I've already read most of the guides I could find already.../

I use Robert / Kula / Yuri, my friend who I play against uses Saiki / King. He has yet to pick a 3rd main. Anyway, Saiki isn't too much of an issue, but his King absolutely infuriates me. It's very strange, in that I can't find a window to punish anything she does, even moves that I know are unsafe on block, like a deep Tornado Kick or Trap Shot. Any time I've ever tried to punish King, he gets me with an EX trap shot, and if I block to bait it out, he'll either not do it and throw me, or do yet another one and catch whatever limb I stuck out to punish him. It's odd because I've gone into training mode and recorded her doing the same moves, and I can punish the dummy without getting hit, but in an actual match it feels as if the EX trap shot and tornado kick are just ridiculous. The only time I ever feel decent against King is when he's out of meter, but even then it feels like everything I do to punish her ends up turned around against me.

With Robert, I usually feel that I hold an advantage against both his mains, because of his good, long-reaching normals. Kula's normals are pretty good too, even if I can't stand the slowness of her Far S.C, but I have trouble trying to open up my opponents with her. With Yuri, I have the same issue, except I just get zoned out hard by both King and Saiki. So basically, how do I go about the vs King / Saiki matchup using Yuri or Kula? Because at this point, I feel as though I want to trade Yuri out for a character with longer legs...

TL;DR Version:

Yuri: Gets zoned out hard by Saiki/King. Vs. Saiki either manage to work my way in slowly, or just get kept out all day. Vs King just get zoned by venom strikes/slide. Can't find a way to reliably punish tornado kicks or trap shots, even blatantly unsafe ones.

Kula: Have trouble getting past opponent's blocking.

GrayFox

To better punish Tornado Kick guard down cause when crouch the 2nd hit is whiffing so you can do st.C>combo

AirLancer

That's exactly it, I've had it whiff because I was crouching, and tried to S.C, and even then "-EX whoosh- TRAP SHOT!" And it's not like I've got slow reactions, I counter-sweep C.Bs and anti-air hops all the time. I'm literally waiting for him to just throw it out, and even when I'm expecting it, I still can't hit him. Though, he usually uses Tornado Kick D, since it doesn't whiff over crouchers (iirc). I know I should be able to punish him if he does it deep, and yet (see above sound effect).

Zeromurasame

With Yuri when it doubt use her HCB B command grab. It's 1f and you can convert off of it. Or leave it alone for a hard knockdown. Which will set you up for all of her shenanigans. I happen to main King(if I get my information wrong feel free to correct me) and I can say getting in on her can be a chore. But a couple of things to note. Her air fireball has a huge window of recovery. It might seem irrelevant to the conversation but if King is just throwing it out there just to do it use that as your opportunity to advance(while being careful of course). All versions of Tornado kick are unsafe, but the B version can be a little tricky to punish. If you're unsure on how to punish it just use Yuri's HCB B grab as I explained earlier. However D and EX are a guaranteed free punish. If you're friend is managing to EX Trap shot you off of those versions then your reactions simply aren't up to speed. King is arguably at her worst when her back is against the wall. And seeing how Yuri has corner rape for days you might want to center your game plan around getting her cornered. Meter or not King has an extremely tough time when cornered. Meterless she's virtually free in the corner as she has no solid reversal options whatsoever. Don't fear regular trap shot as it's incredibly slow and is prone to trades. Also take a look at her fireballs and see the speeds at which they fire. From 3/4ths to full screen the light one recovers fast enough to set up for some good spacial control from her. So if you jump from those distances you might eat a D Tornado kick, S.D, or S.C depending on the spacing. Her heavy fireball while fast, has quite a bit of recovery on it. So even if you can't get a punish from a jump in use that as another opportunity to gain some ground. From 3/4ths to 1/2 screen away from her be aware of jumping as her S.D and S.C are great anti-airs. Speaking of her S.C It stays out for a long time and whiffs on crouchers. So if you see King just throw that out there it's pretty much a free sweep. I could go on and on, but I'm drawing blanks on what else I should mention. But while I'm here I might as well ask the better people if this is legit match up knowledge for King? Or am I just playing her wrong? lol It might not be Yuri specific but it's just general knowledge of King's weakness's, which are pretty easy to exploit.

Terrastorm

Any anti-Yuri strats will be greatly appreciated.

AirLancer

Zeromurasame, post: 6513635, member: 31257 wrote:

Stuff.

Thanks for the advice.