Official SRK SFxT Balance Discussion Thread

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  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FlyingVe said:
    I've said it before.

    Hype. Will be what kills fighting games.

    More precisely the wrong type of hype? Watching Sanford vs Dieminion vs Hiro is extremely hype for me.

    True, I'm talking about hype from the perspective of the casual spectator. The guy that calls fireballs spam.

    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
    Killer Instinct: Thunder, Spinal, Jago
    SF4: Hugo, Abel, Oni, Yang
    SF3:Yang
  • amrraedamrraed Joined: Posts: 316 ✭✭
    I think Everyone in this game is viable , however the risk/reward can be really imbalanced . I understand that some characters have a pretty safe pressure play style but they don't need to have a high damage output for it . The prime example is characters like Jin / Cody , Jin doesn't have to do any unsafe tactics , has amazing frames on his moves and a really high solo damage output , great tag synergy due to median line destruction and his SS.LP . While Cody has to play a frame trap game now (btw his highest advantage on a normal is +2 of his cl.MP and c.mp) and then the reward just isn't there due to his now overall less damage output . 

    btw did anyone see Kuma's alt costume with these neon colors ? it is the most obnoxious thing i have ever seen .   
    Injustice : Wonder Woman , The Flash , Bane
    SFxT : Cody/Nina
    SF4 : Cody .
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think your overstating Jin's damage output a bit.

    Yeah, if he hits you with a jump in, its huge, but solo, it's pretty average. What he can do, is because of the nature of his combos and MLD, he can tag into huge damage from his partner.
    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
    Killer Instinct: Thunder, Spinal, Jago
    SF4: Hugo, Abel, Oni, Yang
    SF3:Yang
  • The Big BossThe Big Boss Joined: Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭
    Since this is the Balance thread I will make this post on topic. I think Bison is OP. Here is why.




    AE: Bipson
    SFxT: Bison/Sagat, Law/Lei, Guile.
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • learis1learis1 Guardian Cadet Joined: Posts: 459
    The more I play against Jin the more it seems like he has absolutely no weakness and only strengths. He has one of the best zoning tools in the game with his projectile special. He has some of the best up close normals. He has great pokes that can be cancelled to his command dash and lead to heavy dmg while still being completely safe on block. He has good anti-airs now. He has his derpy invincible punch special that staggers on counterhit. He has a combo-able overhead. He has nice mobility. He has a retarded jump hard kick that can cross up. He has one of the highest damaging supers. He's the only character in the game who can safely tag cancel his boost combo on block due to his launcher hitting twice. He's got great synergy due to his multi-hitting median line destruction. Am I leaving anything out? 

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    Mend and Defend

    SSFIV AE 2012:
    xbox gamertag: Learis1
    chars played (best to worst): Fei Long, Yang, Chun-Li, Sagat, Cammy, Guile
  • Misty ChaosMisty Chaos You've Being Mistified! Joined: Posts: 172
    chopperbyrne said: We absolutely had proper arcade scenes in Ireland. Don't know where you came up with that Misty.
    My bad, I guess I meant there wasn't a
    local arcade scene where I lived, unless you were willing to drive for a half hour either way.
    SSFIV AE: Juri , Ibuki, Akuma
    SFxT: Alisa / Lili
  • learis1learis1 Guardian Cadet Joined: Posts: 459
    Since this is the Balance thread I will make this post on topic. I think Bison is OP. Here is why.


    How is this OP? If you don't quickrise then it's harmless.

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    Mend and Defend

    SSFIV AE 2012:
    xbox gamertag: Learis1
    chars played (best to worst): Fei Long, Yang, Chun-Li, Sagat, Cammy, Guile
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Saitsu said:
    Money will kill FG's before casual hype does.
    Probably right.
    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
    Killer Instinct: Thunder, Spinal, Jago
    SF4: Hugo, Abel, Oni, Yang
    SF3:Yang
  • The Big BossThe Big Boss Joined: Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    learis1 said:
    Since this is the Balance thread I will make this post on topic. I think Bison is OP. Here is why.


    How is this OP? If you don't quickrise then it's harmless.
    It was a joke. Live a little.

    Besides, Even if they don't quick rise. You can still set the LP PC to hit them as they wake up and gain frame advantage for constant pressure.
    Post edited by The Big Boss on
    AE: Bipson
    SFxT: Bison/Sagat, Law/Lei, Guile.
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • learis1learis1 Guardian Cadet Joined: Posts: 459
    It was a joke. Live a little.

    Besides, Even if they don't quick rise. You can still set the LP PC to hit them as they wake up and gain frame advantage for constant pressure.
    My bad bro, your joke caught me by surprise. I'm just used to jokes being funny.

    bold test italics test underline test strikeout test subscript test superscript test blue test size test

    Mend and Defend

    SSFIV AE 2012:
    xbox gamertag: Learis1
    chars played (best to worst): Fei Long, Yang, Chun-Li, Sagat, Cammy, Guile
  • The Big BossThe Big Boss Joined: Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭
    learis1 said:
    It was a joke. Live a little.

    Besides, Even if they don't quick rise. You can still set the LP PC to hit them as they wake up and gain frame advantage for constant pressure.
    My bad bro, your joke caught me by surprise. I'm just used to jokes being funny.
    Ok I'll make sure to put some humor in it next time.
    AE: Bipson
    SFxT: Bison/Sagat, Law/Lei, Guile.
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • rayplayrayplay aka solidoutlaw Joined: Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭✭
    amrraed said:
    I think Everyone in this game is viable , however the risk/reward can be really imbalanced . I understand that some characters have a pretty safe pressure play style but they don't need to have a high damage output for it . The prime example is characters like Jin / Cody , Jin doesn't have to do any unsafe tactics , has amazing frames on his moves and a really high solo damage output , great tag synergy due to median line destruction and his SS.LP . While Cody has to play a frame trap game now (btw his highest advantage on a normal is +2 of his cl.MP and c.mp) and then the reward just isn't there due to his now overall less damage output . 

    btw did anyone see Kuma's alt costume with these neon colors ? it is the most obnoxious thing i have ever seen .   
    Blanka says "HURREEAGaan I've already done this joke. 
    PSN: rayplay
    I'm outrageous. So anti social that I make others feel like THEY'RE the outcasts, not me.
    "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - T.O.M.
  • Ace2aKingAce2aKing Rk Antics Joined: Posts: 120
    I find it interesting that there are complaints about nerfs and buffs to certain characters. Maybe there may need to be an adjustment in team composition, I.e guile may not be fit to be a point character because of the meter nerf......so put him on anchor ,simple solution. Don't complain about it, adjust if you still really want to play a particular character.
    Xbox live: Rk Antics
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭

    learis1 said:
    It was a joke. Live a little.

    Besides, Even if they don't quick rise. You can still set the LP PC to hit them as they wake up and gain frame advantage for constant pressure.
    My bad bro, your joke caught me by surprise. I'm just used to jokes being funny.
    Ok I'll make sure to put some humor in it next time.
    That's how you make a joke with humor:
    Ace2aKing said:
    guile may not be fit to be a point character because of the meter nerf......so put him on anchor ,simple solution.

    我道
  • Swedish ChefSwedish Chef STEEL THY BUTT! Joined: Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    rayplay wrote: »
    Blanka says "HURREEAGaan I've already done this joke. 
    That's because Blanka is a joke in this game. Kappa.png
    Post edited by Swedish Chef on
    TAKING YOU PUNKS DOWN!!!
    ^Bubbleberry_VII you are so godlike for making this.
  • SongiSongi Raw launcher warrior! Joined: Posts: 1,334
    SFxT: Christie/Xiaoyu subs: Lili or Asuka
    TTT2: Xiaoyu / Lili , Jun / Asuka Learning: Anna
    PSN: Songi_Legaia
    http://rawtag.blogspot.com/
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    HAHAHA Cody under "Well rounded"? And better then half the cast? Wtf? He's down there with Hugo, probably even worse.
    And Rolento and Juri that low? WTF?! Seriously, it's pretty "not spot on".
    我道
  • LinksLinks No copyright law in the universe is gonna stop me! Joined: Posts: 956 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Songi said:
    I think Cole is not as bad as Hugo, just saying. Also, I'd say Akuma is more well-rounded than that. Matter of fact, Ogre and Akuma should switch places. And Jack-X and Paul definitely have flaws. Otherwise, it's pretty good. 

    Edit: You know, this game is more balanced than I thought. There's a really big high-tier group, with just a few above the rest, and a big mid-tier, with only a few bottom ones. It's tough to make a good tier list. 
    Post edited by Links on
    Steam Profile: GottaGoFaaaaast
    Mains: Ultra SF4 - Cody, Evil Ryu, Dudley, Poison SFXT - Poison, Ogre, Elena, Dudley, Cody, Kazuya, Bryan, Ken, Asuka UMVC3 - Firebrand, Frank West, Super-Skrull and Wolverine, Taskmaster, Akuma
    SSBB - King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi, DS3 - Talbain, Morrigan
  • The Big BossThe Big Boss Joined: Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭
    Songi said:
    Have to agree. Some of these needs to be reworked. Juri is actually pretty good. Don't know why most play so mindlessly since she can control her opponent with her horiziontal and vertical fireballs. Rolento is still a beast battery who builds tons of meter, great tick grab game, and although most of us know how to defend it, his mixup game can be deadly if you guess wrong (guess you can say that about any mixup character). 

    Steve is definitely a slept on character. Once again another character who was given a fireball and nobody uses it to counter zone besides Ryan Hunter! And with his crazy pressure, solid anti-air, and the new improvements to peekaboo stance, I see no reason for players to rush in like they do when Steve can pick the opponent apart in a lot of ways. Sure he has some predictable/bad wake up options, but then again most characters in this game do. 

    Chun-Li is top tier. Hands down.  The queen of footsies. 

    Sim is still strong in this game as well. 
    AE: Bipson
    SFxT: Bison/Sagat, Law/Lei, Guile.
    Your signature has been modifed, please read the rules.
  • SongiSongi Raw launcher warrior! Joined: Posts: 1,334
    Akuma is excellent, I agree! I just couldn't fit all the characters on well-rounded side because of how small of a space they give me and the amount of characters I have to fit.

     I'm a huge stickler for organization and I fucking hate unorganized tier lists. Honestly the low tiers are going to be debatable all day long. I can't help that fact, just how this game is.
    SFxT: Christie/Xiaoyu subs: Lili or Asuka
    TTT2: Xiaoyu / Lili , Jun / Asuka Learning: Anna
    PSN: Songi_Legaia
    http://rawtag.blogspot.com/
  • NissanZaximaNissanZaxima Joined: Posts: 7,686
    Songi wrote: »
    My current 2013 tier list. I think it's pretty spot on as far as the upper echelon of the game.

    I would hope you would think your own tier list is accurate ;)
    XBL: NissanZaxima
    Twitter: NissanZaxima18
  • awkwardscrubawkwardscrub Headbutt? Headbutt. Joined: Posts: 144
    I'd put Chun a line up with (but behind) Kaz and I'd move Vega up a tier, but honestly I think that's pretty solid. 

    Poor Hugo.  You are butt.  I love you, you big dummy.

    A mediocre Juri, Hugo, Abel, Makoto, Adon, Labrys, Tsubaki, Taokaka, Jon Talbain, Lillith, Hulk, X-23, Sentinel, and Aeon.
  • AlociAloci BX Fenns Joined: Posts: 448
    So how good are Vega's standing pokes?
    The Vega's I see are always abusing his crouching pokes, and are thus Raw Launch bait.
    UMvC3: I don't even know anymore | SSF4AE2012: Gouken
    XMvSF: Rogue/Charlie | SFxT2013: Lars/Nina
    TvC:UAS: Ippatsuman/Soki | VF5:FS: Vanessa | BBCP: Amane/Hakumen
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Songi wrote: »
    My current 2013 tier list. I think it's pretty spot on as far as the upper echelon of the game.

    I would hope you would think your own tier list is accurate ;)

    Mine is better.
    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
    Killer Instinct: Thunder, Spinal, Jago
    SF4: Hugo, Abel, Oni, Yang
    SF3:Yang
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 3,657 ✭✭✭✭
    Curious as to why people think Akuma is that good? I think he's solid: I'd put him in B-tier, nothing more. Why?

    -Has really low health but now lacks defensive options he previously had.
    -Roll buff improved his dive kick but its still a guessing game once you commit to the demon flip.
    -CADC game sucks unless you EX (not worth the meter).
    -St. fp doesn't do anything cr. mk couldn't do.

    2013 gave him more combo options, a bit more synergy with cl. rh, and he's slightly less prone to launchers with st. fp. But his game revolves around sweep so being less prone to launchers doesn't matter as much. And now its harder for him to keep characters out but he gets blown up harder once his wall is broken. 

    I know people said that there would be some wake-up tech but I haven't seen any of the good Akuma players do anything of the sort. Ryu probably isn't the better shoto at this point but I'd feel much more confident using him due to his health. 
    SFxT: Akuma x Yoshimitsu/Lars/Jin - Rolento x Law || USF4: Rolento/Gouken || IGAU: Bane || ST/HDR: Cammy/Dee-Jay
  • XiahouXiahou Joined: Posts: 222
    I want to know peoples opinions on Rufus in v13. Haven't heard anyone talk about him in this thread, yet he's placing quite high on all these user made tier lists.
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rufus still has oppressive pressure, big damage, and great footsies, and EX Messiah is still good.

    The big thing though, is that he has the best throw game of all the characters. No one else even comes close. And in a game where throws can do as much damage as this one that's huge.
    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
    Killer Instinct: Thunder, Spinal, Jago
    SF4: Hugo, Abel, Oni, Yang
    SF3:Yang
  • guy986guy986 Joined: Posts: 82
    edited February 2013
    FlyingVe said:
    Rufus still has oppressive pressure, big damage, and great footsies, and EX Messiah is still good.

    The big thing though, is that he has the best throw game of all the characters. No one else even comes close. And in a game where throws can do as much damage as this one that's huge.
    How does he have the best throw game of all the characters?

    His divekick doesn't combo now above the waist and even if it connects at the lowest point(on block), it still loses to 3 frame jab. 

    3 frame jab after divekick beats all of Rufus option other than ex-messiah kick. 
    Post edited by guy986 on
  • guy986guy986 Joined: Posts: 82
    edited February 2013

    Norieaga said:
    Curious as to why people think Akuma is that good? I think he's solid: I'd put him in B-tier, nothing more. Why?

    -Has really low health but now lacks defensive options he previously had.
    -Roll buff improved his dive kick but its still a guessing game once you commit to the demon flip.
    -CADC game sucks unless you EX (not worth the meter).
    -St. fp doesn't do anything cr. mk couldn't do.

    2013 gave him more combo options, a bit more synergy with cl. rh, and he's slightly less prone to launchers with st. fp. But his game revolves around sweep so being less prone to launchers doesn't matter as much. And now its harder for him to keep characters out but he gets blown up harder once his wall is broken. 

    I know people said that there would be some wake-up tech but I haven't seen any of the good Akuma players do anything of the sort. Ryu probably isn't the better shoto at this point but I'd feel much more confident using him due to his health. 

    Yea i want to know what these "great" footsie buff people are talking about.

    far HP is now special cancelable. Great but cr.mk has longer range and faster startup than far HP. Who uses far HP in footsie battle?
    far HK's 2nd hit now hits croucher. Great but they didn't mention that the 2nd hit only connects on croucher at close-ish range. It always whiffs croucher at footsie range. Making it very unsafe in mid range. 

    Akuma plays the same way post patch. They just took away his defensive option making him more offense oriented. His tick throw game is strong tho.

    Akuma seems stronger now because all his SF peers got nerfed to ****.
    Post edited by guy986 on
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    guy986 said:
    FlyingVe said:
    Rufus still has oppressive pressure, big damage, and great footsies, and EX Messiah is still good.

    The big thing though, is that he has the best throw game of all the characters. No one else even comes close. And in a game where throws can do as much damage as this one that's huge.
    How does he have the best throw game of all the characters?

    His divekick doesn't combo now above the waist and even if it connects at the lowest point(on block), it still loses to 3 frame jab. 

    3 frame jab after divekick beats all of Rufus option other than ex-messiah kick. 
    Depends on where the dive kick hits. If used well it's still +.
    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
    Killer Instinct: Thunder, Spinal, Jago
    SF4: Hugo, Abel, Oni, Yang
    SF3:Yang
  • learis1learis1 Guardian Cadet Joined: Posts: 459
    Songi said:
    I think it's a nice tier list you got there. Most of the cast I'm still completely up in the air about, but I'll comment on who i think could be higher or lower.
    - Rolento still seems very strong/practically the same to me. Id put in the upper half at least.
    - Juri's derpy stuff got nerfed but I think she's still very good/versatile. Id put her in the upper half. 
    - I think Lilli could possibly be right up there with the best of the best. 
    - I don't think Kaz is as good as people make him out to be, but he's still in the upper half (if you can't do ewgf he might as well be in the lower half though). 
    - I don't think Julia is as good as you put her, but I could be wrong.
    - Alisa could possibly be better than where you put her. In the right hands she seems extremely strong, but I'm still not sure.
    - I think Marduk is possibly in the upper half. He seems like a strong character to me and has a quick jump which is scary for a grappler.
    - Yoshimitsu might actually be in the upper half too. His pokes are really good (his uppercut move is also a great poke) and his switch cancelling is excellent.
    - I think Asuka could be in the upper half now. She's still got range limitations but she has really scary high lows leading to tons of dmg now.
    - Not sure if Guy should be that high and if Cody should be that low. I guess we'll see.
    - I don't know if Bison should be that high.
    - I think steve and king could be better than where they're put.

    All the other characters I agree with or don't have knowledge to comment on.

    bold test italics test underline test strikeout test subscript test superscript test blue test size test

    Mend and Defend

    SSFIV AE 2012:
    xbox gamertag: Learis1
    chars played (best to worst): Fei Long, Yang, Chun-Li, Sagat, Cammy, Guile
  • guy986guy986 Joined: Posts: 82
    I think rufus' divekick done at the lowest point is 0 on block.

    I can jab rufus out of his divekick short short shenanigan with ryu at the lowest possible point.

    Its tricky online with lag but once you time it well rufus loses every time. The reason it seems like his divekick is at at advantage because Rufus players KNOW the timing of the divekick better than you. The difference is one frame.
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think that's right, I'm almost sure it's still + a few frames ( not many) at it's lowest point. Still, I will admit I might be wrong on that.

    We should have Zuuku test it if possible, because this would be a good thing to have the exact frame data on.


    Pwease?
    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
    Killer Instinct: Thunder, Spinal, Jago
    SF4: Hugo, Abel, Oni, Yang
    SF3:Yang
  • guy986guy986 Joined: Posts: 82
    FlyingVe said:
    I don't think that's right, I'm almost sure it's still + a few frames ( not many) at it's lowest point. Still, I will admit I might be wrong on that.

    We should have Zuuku test it if possible, because this would be a good thing to have the exact frame data on.


    Pwease?

    Yea it'll be interesting to see. 

    Justin wong claimed that its 0 on block at lowest point.

    Ricky Ortiz said its plus frame aimed below the waist. 
    http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/may/16/justin-wong-and-ricky-ortiz-comment-recent-nerfs-rufus-dive-kick-street-fighter-x-tekken/

    My own experience and some training room test tell me that it loses to 3 frame jab at lowest point. 
  • guy986guy986 Joined: Posts: 82
    I think its either 0 or +1.

    Absolutely no way its + a few frames. No way.
  • XiahouXiahou Joined: Posts: 222
    FlyingVe said:
    Rufus still has oppressive pressure, big damage, and great footsies, and EX Messiah is still good.

    The big thing though, is that he has the best throw game of all the characters. No one else even comes close. And in a game where throws can do as much damage as this one that's huge.
    His damage is below average solo. As an anchor he's probably one of the most damaging because of SS switch and his corner juggles after a GT or switch and that's the only way you're going to be doing significant damage. That's why I think he should be kept as an anchor on a team. But if you're playing him on point you're not going to get anything decent without any meter or a combo into launch.

    His pressure game is very hard to make effective now because of the nerfs and how simplistic he is compared to other rushdown characters in this game. His divekick is just utter shit now and ironically worse than some other characters divekicks in this game when it's what he's oriented around. It is possible to be slightly + on block with it but that's almost impossible to set up with the height restriction nerf in vanilla and when he doesn't have any good normals to space himself for it. Also the loss of his divekick vortex (he's now always pushed towards the top of their head now after that patch in spring) is something that really hurt the divekick too and there was no mention of it being removed before the patch. His throw game has always been the real threat of his offense since SF4 but the s.LK pushback nerf really hurts that when he's too far away to grab them. I'm not sure why they nerfed cs.LK when it's his only normal to set up his BnBs too.

    Although I think his entire offense game is just shit now he can still play a strong ground game. Whiff punishing is a bigger factor in xT than it was in SF4 and if Rufus ever catches you with a fs.MK you're eating a fs.MK~c.HP~launch for big damage. To me he should just remain outside the character's poking range and patiently wait on a chance to land a s.MK.

    There's so many strong rushdown characters in this game that I don't think Rufus stands out.
  • FlyingVeFlyingVe Best Poster of All Time Joined: Posts: 12,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My testing (which isn't super intensive) says it can be as much as +3, but usually 0-+1.
    UMvC3: Viper/Dante/Strider, Jill/Dante/Wesker, Nova/Spencer/Sentinel
    Killer Instinct: Thunder, Spinal, Jago
    SF4: Hugo, Abel, Oni, Yang
    SF3:Yang
  • beganobegano Joined: Posts: 64
    edited February 2013

    guy986 said:
    I think its either 0 or +1.

    Absolutely no way its + a few frames. No way.
    Yeah no, idiots have been mashing lights after rufus divek kick to me since this version came out. Only thing is wen its used properly and it hits as low as it needs to hit rufus is on + and he wins every time.Even vs Jin.

    You've been playing some shitty rufus players. Just try to mash jab after properly spaced divekick to someone that knows what is doing and and your are done.
    Post edited by begano on
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    FlyingVe said:
    I don't think that's right, I'm almost sure it's still + a few frames ( not many) at it's lowest point. Still, I will admit I might be wrong on that.

    We should have Zuuku test it if possible, because this would be a good thing to have the exact frame data on.


    Pwease?
    The best I could get it to was +1.
    我道
  • guy986guy986 Joined: Posts: 82
    Xiahou said:
    FlyingVe said:
    Rufus still has oppressive pressure, big damage, and great footsies, and EX Messiah is still good.

    The big thing though, is that he has the best throw game of all the characters. No one else even comes close. And in a game where throws can do as much damage as this one that's huge.
    His damage is below average solo. As an anchor he's probably one of the most damaging because of SS switch and his corner juggles after a GT or switch and that's the only way you're going to be doing significant damage. That's why I think he should be kept as an anchor on a team. But if you're playing him on point you're not going to get anything decent without any meter or a combo into launch.

    His pressure game is very hard to make effective now because of the nerfs and how simplistic he is compared to other rushdown characters in this game. His divekick is just utter shit now and ironically worse than some other characters divekicks in this game when it's what he's oriented around. It is possible to be slightly + on block with it but that's almost impossible to set up with the height restriction nerf in vanilla and when he doesn't have any good normals to space himself for it. Also the loss of his divekick vortex (he's now always pushed towards the top of their head now after that patch in spring) is something that really hurt the divekick too and there was no mention of it being removed before the patch. His throw game has always been the real threat of his offense since SF4 but the s.LK pushback nerf really hurts that when he's too far away to grab them. I'm not sure why they nerfed cs.LK when it's his only normal to set up his BnBs too.

    Although I think his entire offense game is just shit now he can still play a strong ground game. Whiff punishing is a bigger factor in xT than it was in SF4 and if Rufus ever catches you with a fs.MK you're eating a fs.MK~c.HP~launch for big damage. To me he should just remain outside the character's poking range and patiently wait on a chance to land a s.MK.

    There's so many strong rushdown characters in this game that I don't think Rufus stands out.
    I think he's still strong. ex-messiah kick remains one of the best reversal in the game. 
     
    Dive kick still good for pressure against majority of cast. mid screen solo Damage is not bad for SF character even after ex-GT nerf.
    Long pokes. Strong super. Good teammate with galactic tornado and snake strike.

    But he's one dimensional and eats meter like crazy. Rufus without meter is shit. 


    Also he's super susceptible to getting jump ins and cross ups.
    In a game where characters like Law and Asuka can do 300+ meterless combo off their invincible anti air, rufus is stuck with cr.mp that does 60 damage. His backdash is crap and his anti air is crap. 

    Rufus feels so hopeless defensively without meter.

  • guy986guy986 Joined: Posts: 82
    edited February 2013
    Double post WTF forum?

    Post edited by guy986 on
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 8,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    guy986 said:
    FlyingVe said:
    I don't think that's right, I'm almost sure it's still + a few frames ( not many) at it's lowest point. Still, I will admit I might be wrong on that.

    We should have Zuuku test it if possible, because this would be a good thing to have the exact frame data on.


    Pwease?

    Yea it'll be interesting to see. 

    Justin wong claimed that its 0 on block at lowest point.

    Ricky Ortiz said its plus frame aimed below the waist. 
    http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/may/16/justin-wong-and-ricky-ortiz-comment-recent-nerfs-rufus-dive-kick-street-fighter-x-tekken/

    My own experience and some training room test tell me that it loses to 3 frame jab at lowest point. 
    That article is from may 2012 back when they first nerfed Rufus. That doesn't take into account the rufus nerfs from 2013 (including his dive kick).

    Also there aren't THAT many characters with 3F jabs / shorts in the game compared to SF4. I think only maybe 5 characters have 3F lights that aren't in the middle of a tekken chain.

    As for that tier list? lolwut. Cody I don't agree with being as low as Hugo like Zukku thinks, but he certainly isn't more well rounded than Guile/Raven or better than Rolento or Juri. He simply relies too heavily on meter to get any damage and the damage he gets isn't comparable with other characters for less meter. His frame trap game is significantly weaker than in SF4 and weaker than a lot of other characters in the game but it's still viable and his back strong while not perhaps the most powerful anti air (he only gets 80 damage and unless it counter hits no followup) it's still one of the best/fastest in the game that is also has relatively fast recovery on whiff. Cody is a basically a shitty Jin / Law now and there is no reason to pick him over those 2 but he isn't D tier broken at a fundamental level like Hugo he is just... bad/mediocre.

    http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/sfxt/index.html?tc=ya0-troybigxcmmd9kfa97o6cfmjcij8cg8591f8dm5mhfl5dq9d9ibnbohsbmdl8n8kbhhkadbtd5mlaqoe8el38jjdabd0afb0ahg9aehx8ebs9aa4c9jvbkee9ob07sjg8ad4cdeocimr8dgabko1aa00gy00gy00gy00im00imfaffewb5l5by00imbhfr8gewge8ol5as00le00ly8lc8ck8c00nm-bkg-naEternal

    Left out Lei, Christi, Elena, and Ogre cause I didn't really know where to put em at all, I dunno what they are capable of.

    Thing is that I consider characters that are "well rounded" (e.g. they have very few extremely exploitable weaknesses and don't have any significantly bad matchups) will often do better in a tournament than a higher placed character that is less well rounded. For example I placed Vega higher than Jin but Jin is MUCH more well rounded and would likely run into less problems with a specific character matchup.
    Post edited by Eternal on
  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 3,657 ✭✭✭✭
    guy986 said:

    Norieaga said:
    Curious as to why people think Akuma is that good? I think he's solid: I'd put him in B-tier, nothing more. Why?

    -Has really low health but now lacks defensive options he previously had.
    -Roll buff improved his dive kick but its still a guessing game once you commit to the demon flip.
    -CADC game sucks unless you EX (not worth the meter).
    -St. fp doesn't do anything cr. mk couldn't do.

    2013 gave him more combo options, a bit more synergy with cl. rh, and he's slightly less prone to launchers with st. fp. But his game revolves around sweep so being less prone to launchers doesn't matter as much. And now its harder for him to keep characters out but he gets blown up harder once his wall is broken. 

    I know people said that there would be some wake-up tech but I haven't seen any of the good Akuma players do anything of the sort. Ryu probably isn't the better shoto at this point but I'd feel much more confident using him due to his health. 

    Yea i want to know what these "great" footsie buff people are talking about.

    far HP is now special cancelable. Great but cr.mk has longer range and faster startup than far HP. Who uses far HP in footsie battle?
    far HK's 2nd hit now hits croucher. Great but they didn't mention that the 2nd hit only connects on croucher at close-ish range. It always whiffs croucher at footsie range. Making it very unsafe in mid range. 

    Akuma plays the same way post patch. They just took away his defensive option making him more offense oriented. His tick throw game is strong tho.

    Akuma seems stronger now because all his SF peers got nerfed to ****.
    Yup, agreed. I don't think his st. fp tool has really added anything to the fold, while the cl. rh buff has just given more options on a tag in. But they nerfed his defense to hell but didn't factor in his crappy health. It made sense in SF4 because he could win the round off of continuous safe setups, but he doesn't have that here. Should've stopped his nerfs at the DP tag (which was definitely BS). The roll nerf would have made it impossible for him to teleport out of it, anyway.

    Meh, Capcom.
    SFxT: Akuma x Yoshimitsu/Lars/Jin - Rolento x Law || USF4: Rolento/Gouken || IGAU: Bane || ST/HDR: Cammy/Dee-Jay
  • TimTimTimTim T-T-T-Timmay! Joined: Posts: 1,325
    I'm so frustrated with the new shoryuken layout and there being no designated character forum for 4/5 of the sfxt cast. 
    Is cody still worth playing? He was one of the characters I was willing to buy the dlc pack for but if he is useless now I'd rather not waste my time and money. 
    Just a lazy prick.
  • zUkUuzUkUu Theory Pro Joined: Posts: 4,371 ✭✭✭
    Guile might be not top tier, but he's not bottom tier either. Marduk is way better. Zangief is too high imo. Many of the B tiers are better than that.
    我道
  • EMREMR Call me, Eggy. I dislike my SRK name. lol Joined: Posts: 1,029
    zUkUu said:
    Guile might be not top tier, but he's not bottom tier either. Marduk is way better. Zangief is too high imo. Many of the B tiers are better than that.
    I still think Zangief is good, just not braindead as he was pre-patch. Marduk is debatable....he seems like a character people can't agree where he stands. I agree some of the B tiers might be better....but I don't think there can be a lot of A tier characters either. So they have to be on the B list by default....
  • LinksLinks No copyright law in the universe is gonna stop me! Joined: Posts: 956 ✭✭✭
    Alisa and Sim are one tier too low IMO. Zangief and Marduk should trade spots, I think. Christie and Bob should probably be up there with Lars, etc. I honestly think that this list is pretty much in alignment with what I feel otherwise!

    Also, why does Kazuya get his own spot out to the side?
    Steam Profile: GottaGoFaaaaast
    Mains: Ultra SF4 - Cody, Evil Ryu, Dudley, Poison SFXT - Poison, Ogre, Elena, Dudley, Cody, Kazuya, Bryan, Ken, Asuka UMVC3 - Firebrand, Frank West, Super-Skrull and Wolverine, Taskmaster, Akuma
    SSBB - King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi, DS3 - Talbain, Morrigan
  • EMREMR Call me, Eggy. I dislike my SRK name. lol Joined: Posts: 1,029
    edited February 2013
    Links said:
    Alisa and Sim are one tier too low IMO. Zangief and Marduk should trade spots, I think. Christie and Bob should probably be up there with Lars, etc. I honestly think that this list is pretty much in alignment with what I feel otherwise!

    Also, why does Kazuya get his own spot out to the side?
    Kazuya is by himself since I wanted to let the "SS" "S" "A" letters be visible. The tiers are aligned horizontally. Each gap below is a different tier. Kazuya is top tier for sure. I base the tier list on a character played at their max potential as of now. A Kazuya player is expected to pull off EWGFs at high level. Alisa is A tier, I think that's fair game. She ain't S tier by any means. Dhalsim I feel he is a low A tier, high B tier. That's why you see his placement at the start of the B tier section.  It seems Marduk and Zangief are the two controversial ones....I still feel Gief is better than Marduk. Gief has better tools IMHO.
    Post edited by EMR on
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