Official SRK SFxT Balance Discussion Thread

d3v

Now before anything, with this game being quite new, this thread isn't for any for balance change requests. To quote Mike_Z "You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab."

That said, I'm sure alot of folks would like to look into and figure out how balanced this game is.

To help facilitate this discussion, here are a few ground rules.

• NO COMPLAINING ABOUT CHARACTERS - In line with the above quote, it takes time for us to actually find out a games true balance. Complaining at this point in time is useless.
• No flaming, no trolling. Failure to comply will result in an infraction.
• Keep discussion civil. If you can't do this then don't post in this thread (or anywhere else on this board).

In general, avoid making statements of so-and-so is overpowered or so-and-so needs buffs. If you need to post something like this, then be sure to support it with a well written, well thought out argument, preferably with references and data to support it.

On tier lists.
One thing that annoys me is how people love to post tier lists without putting in the math behind it. In other words, if you're going to post a tier list (despite how dumb that would be this early on), be sure to back it up with a match up chart.

Better yet, for the purposes of this game (seeing as it also has a tag element), I propose that somewhere down the line, we come up with a 1-on-1 match up chart for this game, before we then create a separate one for the individual teams.

EDIT: Community match-up chart project.
Working on creating a document for an eventual community match up chart for point characters. Currently looking for volunteers, preferably from the individual character sections. Target date for this is sometime in May.

Pterodactyl

You'll also probably have to take gems into account when listing match-ups as well.

d3v

Pterodactyl, post: 6602300, member: 61506 wrote:

You'll also probably have to take gems into account when listing match-ups as well.

Usually, in this case people tend to go for 'best loadout' similar to how we listed the preferred Grooves/ISMs in CvS2/A3.

therook

d3v, post: 6602578, member: 9887 wrote:

Usually, in this case people tend to go for 'best loadout' similar to how we listed the preferred Grooves/ISMs in CvS2/A3.

I suppose, even though Gems are usually tailored to a persons playstyle and habbits then what Groves and ISM's did. But yeah we could do it your way....what do you suggest Immense power all the way? :P jokes aside~ we can....

Logically use Gems and a random Variable....you know a actual X factor(no pun intended) in a match up that can't be calculated....it makes things harder for tiers but...grey's out those areas in that regard. so in general they will still be tiers but gems can potentially change the outcome of a match, because stamina and damage output are all variables in calculating match ups...Gems change those with varying degrees.

but in truth, i don't know the best way in trying to figure this out........it seems like a long and demanding task that requires time that i don't have to figure out. because Gems can potentially change the outcome of a match you have to factor in how they can and why....that is the hard part but D3V your smarter then me so im sure you can think of something.

Tebbo

I'm hoping gems are universally adopted and really muddle the shit out of matchups.

d3v

therook, post: 6602636, member: 22236 wrote:

I suppose, even though Gems are usually tailored to a persons playstyle and habbits then what Groves and ISM's did. But yeah we could do it your way....what do you suggest Immense power all the way? :P jokes aside~ we can....

Logically use Gems and a random Variable....you know a actual X factor(no pun intended) in a match up that can't be calculated....it makes things harder for tiers but...grey's out those areas in that regard. so in general they will still be tiers but gems can potentially change the outcome of a match, because stamina and damage output are all variables in calculating match ups...Gems change those with varying degrees.

but in truth, i don't know the best way in trying to figure this out........it seems like a long and demanding task that requires time that i don't have to figure out. because Gems can potentially change the outcome of a match you have to factor in how they can and why....that is the hard part but D3V your smarter then me so im sure you can think of something.

Based on experience I believe that we will eventually find certain "best loadouts" for all the characters. Though on a similar note, I don't expect gem loadouts to be as influential as grooves/ISMs (after all, there's no custom combo gem... as much as I wish there was).

therook

well thats the thing, there doesnt have to be a "best loadout" i think it defeats the purpose of gems all together if that statement alone was true, but ultimately i can't predict the future and more or less you maybe right~ i just feel that its something should vary from person to person....its like saying D3V you use your Gems and Daigo uses his Gems...they maybe similar but not the same because you two probably don't play the same way~

d3v

therook, post: 6602684, member: 22236 wrote:

well thats the thing, there doesnt have to be a "best loadout" i think it defeats the purpose of gems all together if that statement alone was true, but ultimately i can't predict the future and more or less you maybe right~ i just feel that its something should vary from person to person....its like saying D3V you use your Gems and Daigo uses his Gems...they maybe similar but not the same because you two probably don't play the same way~

Just because there "doesn't have to be" doesn't mean there wont be. Given enough time, the way fighting game metagames evolve pretty much guarantee this.

However, I don't expect something like A3 and CvS2 where there was one general best groove/ISM. Instead, this'l probably be more matchup specific.

Unless off course my proposed custom combo gem that activates when you have 3 bars and do a 3 hit combo actually becomes reality. Y'all know we'll be rocking that shizz all day err day.

SUPARNOVAX

Tekken characters have very good independent punishes. I'm just scratching the surface with Law and I can do like 300ish damage no gems. We all saw how much Hugo was doing on the Cross Assault stream. It's so crazy.

therook

i guess so, but like any TCG or any game that evolves over time, the metagame changes...thats what i was getting at...what was strong a few months ago isnt going to be that effective currently. since games like CVS2 or MVC2 never got updates their metagames didn't change after awhile, however they did with time in SFIV.

I think SFxTK is taking on the idea of having a ever changing metagame...but I can see certain strategies being fairly consistent so i think there is that too~ like Sagat is always going to be good hahaha~

I think you can meet me half way on this one D3V~

d3v

CvS2 did get an update (EO), the community flat out rejected it.

Also, even with updates, all that's going to happen is people will min-max again and find newer "best builds".

d3v

Deleting those posts.

This is exactly the kind of pointless shit talk I wanted to avoid in this thread.

Also, I do hope folks remember to read the first post.

In general, avoid making statements of so-and-so is overpowered or so-and-so needs buffs. If you need to post something like this, then be sure to support it with a well written, well thought out argument, preferably with references and data to support it.

BallTapper

Jarekov, post: 6603168, member: 11266 wrote:

even with one power gem active you can get 20% more damage on a combo, you can use three... I'm assuming you get the picture. If you go full power gem load out and get 50% damage boost and do a 300 damage combo that becomes a 450 damage combo, which will kill a character like ibuki if you land it twice this could really easily change match ups for ibuki since she is effectively getting less chances to make a mistake, instead of getting 3 mistakes she gets two.

also where the hell are you getting the 10 damage on SPD? And yeah speed gems/ defensive gems could be a very big deal for gief in a matchup with dhalsim, having more life and better speed to set up footsies is kind of a big fucking deal.

if you put a power gem of 20% on gief, and he does an spd you get 210, 200 being the base, by the time you do ABC Launcher, damage already scales to 60%, and since you think that gems are gonna be the biggest fucking deal since they disappear after a 20 second maximum time limit, sim can just counter the defense and speed gems that gief has, with his own power and speed gems, than your still at a bad match up, not really changing the pace of a match

Pete278

BallTapper, post: 6603185, member: 56820 wrote:

if you put a power gem of 20% on gief, and he does an spd you get 210, 200 being the base,

what

SUPARNOVAX

I think some people overestimated the strength of the gems.

There's supposedly at least a hundred gems in the game, or maybe they just have a three digit counter for no reason.

Anyway, some of these damage gems don't proc off as properly as you like. These gems are basically multiplicatively added from what I've seen so far and they scale pretty hard if you do chains a lot and almost make not much of an impact.

The most basic ones on launch are: Connect 5 normals, connect 10 normals, hit 3 specials, get hit by 2 specials, perform a tag cancel, perform a launcher, your partner does a launcher, go into pandora, and whatever else. Most of these are based on in game timers. I've gotten some beefy 40-45% combos with damage gems on in training mode, but connecting them in a real match is pretty random at best since I can't deliberately always manage to nail someone with a punish that cleanly.

I think early on people will fall for a lot of gimmicks like not knowing what overheads or goes low off the bat. That and grapplers with slow command grabs. I think they will fall off after the first two or three weeks. But I think everything will still be really fun.

OMG its a duck

In latest news, 20% of 200 is 10!

BallTapper

Pete278, post: 6603206, member: 9199 wrote:

what

if you put a power gem that raises attack power by 20% on zangief, and do an spd, his damage on spd is raised to 210 for a small amount of time, as opposed to the 200 base spd damage he starts with, with no gems activated

BallTapper

OMG its a duck, post: 6603217, member: 37440 wrote:

In latest news, 20% of 200 is 10!

yeah, im not even fucking with you, im looking at the damage output right the fuck now, a gem that raises his overall damage by 20% only gives him 10 more damage on his spd

SUPARNOVAX

You must be high or drunk.

Zangief's SPD 180/200/220 ungemmed. 198/220/242 gemmed with 10% boost.

BallTapper

yeah, okay, so basically all im getting from this is ppl who dont have the game calling me a scrub who dosnt know shit about the game, and that my opinion isnt shit because im not a top japanese player, keep guzzling that daigo juice

BallTapper

SUPARNOVAX, post: 6603229, member: 2393 wrote:

You must be high or drunk.

Zangief's SPD 180/200/220 ungemmed. 198/220/242 gemmed with 10% boost.

my mistake, it must of been hugo i as thinking of

SUPARNOVAX

BallTapper, post: 6603251, member: 56820 wrote:

my mistake, it must of been hugo i as thinking of

No. The math doesn't work out that way. I have the game too.

BallTapper

SUPARNOVAX, post: 6603259, member: 2393 wrote:

No. The math doesn't work out that way. I have the game too.

oh, well then excuse the fuck out of me

Pete278

May I ask, how the fuck did you think a 20% boost would make 200 into 210?

BallTapper

i could of swore that the gems i set on hugo were all 20%, but you know, my fucking mistake

SUPARNOVAX

The gems do not stack if that's what you were confused about.

BallTapper

SUPARNOVAX, post: 6603269, member: 2393 wrote:

The gems do not stack if that's what you were confused about.

no im looking back at my selection and i see i have "partner connects with a launcher" for 10%

Jarekov

Salt levels rising.

my boy just brought a copy over been playing for a bit, characters with good footsies are going to dominate in this game.

Team synergy might be over rated, any team I picked up was capable of crazy ass juggles, so idk if teams will be necessary to tier. But then again a team of dhalsim and raven is going to do work on ryu/ken. Team synergy could obviously evolve but right now it seems like outside of characters with moves like chuns lightning legs that can lock down and set up mixups for others its going to be pretty much meh on that front.

I think grading characters on certain factors might be really benificial, like damage off of tag ins, ability to set up the tagging character with a move that will lock someone down while they're partner comes in to set up cross ups... etc etc, stuff like that.

The slower walk speed, better jump ins, and higher damage overall are going to make this very weird for people coming from SF4, and weird for everyone else I think. Its definitely off putting to me right now, its gonna be awhile before anything legit comes along in the way of tiers especially with the breadth of things that need to be tested.

Pete278

110% of 200 still isn't 210

d3v

BallTapper, post: 6603244, member: 56820 wrote:

yeah, okay, so basically all im getting from this is ppl who dont have the game calling me a scrub who dosnt know shit about the game, and that my opinion isnt shit because im not a top japanese player, keep guzzling that daigo juice

No, we're saying that day -1 is too early for any form of meaningful balance discussion because we don't have any meaningful data to pour over.

SUPARNOVAX

Yeah, the team synergy is more or less as important as Tekken Tag Tournament. Just pick two characters you like and work something out. There's almost always something doable with wall and ground bounce moves coming into play. It's pretty creative.

OMG its a duck

Jarekov, post: 6603283, member: 11266 wrote:

The slower walk speed,

Oh god is that even possible?

Jarekov

OMG its a duck, post: 6603291, member: 37440 wrote:

Oh god is that even possible?

Im not sure if it actually is, but it feels slower then SSF4AE. Then again Ive been playing a lot of BB this month so maybe thats it.

I'll pop in SSF4AE and see if its actually noticeable, just what I felt at 1st glance.

Tebbo

you know what the solution is to playing against a character with some good footsie options?

don't play footsies with them.

really that seems like nearly every character. so it's more like players with strong footsies will be strong. but even so, same thing, you just ignore it. the mixup game looks just as powerful and just general lockdown pressure kind of play with so many + moves. I understand completely what people mean about footsies but if you're even a decent player you know how to get around them.

w00denTEETH

How much of a variation is there in character health values? Anyone know who is the lowest?

I am assuming that the health related gems somewhat prevented them from trying to justify imbalance with low health.

SUPARNOVAX

w00denTEETH, post: 6605754, member: 62807 wrote:

How much of a variation is there in character health values? Anyone know who is the lowest?

I am assuming that the health related gems somewhat prevented them from trying to justify imbalance with low health.

The health is pretty Street Fighter-esque. Most females around 900 range, males 1000 range, tanks at 1100-1200 ungemmed. I think Ogre and Akuma may be lowest in the bunch.

Nybb

Anybody wanna take bets on how long it will take for everyone to figure out that the slow grapplers are mid-tier at best?

Joshkaz

I see Gief and Hugo being mid to low tier.

d3v

Anyone got any overall word on characters damage output. I've noticed a few of the combo threads in the character section are already listing damage values.

Swedish Chef

SUPARNOVAX, post: 6605966, member: 2393 wrote:

The health is pretty Street Fighter-esque. Most females around 900 range, males 1000 range, tanks at 1100-1200 ungemmed. I think Ogre and Akuma may be lowest in the bunch.

Lili's supposed to have really low health as well, and looking at this video Cole's health looks really low.

I do know that Hugo tops the Health range at 1150 health gemless though.

Tizoc

Umm I hope this is relevant but does anyone find that the damage values for Supers in this game seems...well odd?
Hugo's Super does 380 damage and can be comboed into
Zangief's Super does 340 damage and CANNOT be comboed into

Yes I know what I'm about to say goes against what that Mike Z quote, but the damage of supers should've been made so it's within the 300-350 range
d3v, if you find this topic unnecessary to discuss at the current period, then I'll delete my post.

Swedish Chef

Tizoc, post: 6609320, member: 4439 wrote:

Umm I hope this is relevant but does anyone find that the damage values for Supers in this game seems...well odd?
Hugo's Super does 380 damage and can be comboed into
Zangief's Super does 340 damage and CANNOT be comboed into

Yes I know what I'm about to say goes against what that Mike Z quote, but the damage of supers should've been made so it's within the 300-350 range
d3v, if you find this topic unnecessary to discuss at the current period, then I'll delete my post.

Zangief's super starts up in about one frame after super freeze though and can't be blocked, where as Hugo's I believe has more startup and Akuma's is even faster than Gief's meaning it will grab you at point blank range if didn't jump during the super freeze and it also travels, thus it does less damage than both of them.
Also it is possible to combo into Zangief's super from a cross art or if you tag him in after landing a move that causes crumple.

d3v

Yes I do find it unnecessary since all talk about how damage affects balance and the metagame is just "theory fighter" at this point.

Dime_x

all speculation is theory fighter unless you are ONLY using tournies for your tier lists.

even using tournies as a viable discourse is flawed as they only assume a level of tech that was applicable at the time of the tourny. things WILL change. so NOT making tier lists for whatever reasons no matter how early the game is... is kinda irrelevant. tier lists arent there to be accurate cause they wont be "accurate" until 3-5 years into a games lifespan. however TALKING THEORY in tier lists is a way for people to learn the game from other peoples perspectives and other characters perspectives without actually playing the game... which is convenient when.... er, not playing the game.


having said that, tier lists are also useful in a retrospective form for seeing how people were thinking about the game at whatever point in time.

imho we should start speculating NOW. theres no reason not to. and at least it will give those tier whores something to base there games on in early tournaments.

i dont even have the game yet so i cant speculate at all.... but having played it for a few hours.... rolento seems VERY strong. this may change as time goes on of course... but is there any reason for me (or anyone else) to NOT state that?


-dime

THATNI666ALEXLUGER

Cole: broken.

otori

THATNI666ALEXLUGER, post: 6609950, member: 47040 wrote:

Cole: broken.

Cole: banned.

RipcordG

well i'm going in with Jin/Ogre and lets see what happens for a few weeks

Shaeknbaek

Not sure I understand the purpose of a thread where you're banning or severely devaluing any meaningful feedback about balance for a month or so.

MAGUS1234

Speculating about strength is good early on, as it gives you an idea of what are strong infant tactics in the game. No one would claim they have an understanding of what the ultimate tiering will look like but I think that should be assumed with any early balance discussion.

cygnus

rufus seems good. can combo easily from high divekicks and lots of damage

Jarekov

cygnus, post: 6613463, member: 798 wrote:

rufus seems good. can combo easily from high divekicks and lots of damage

Rufus combos are so much easier in this game, definitely going to be top tier online warrior.

Steve fox is dirty, the damage he puts out is just ridiculous, idk what everyone else is doing for damage, but me dicking around with steve in training is amazing. 630 damage off of easy stuff.