Having trouble against Cammy rushdown (tick throws)

Raistlin XRaistlin X don't even.Joined: Posts: 47
I have a friend who plays Cammy and beats me using consistently using only two buttons. I have been using mainly O. Sagat against him, but have tried the whole cast.

His gameplan is to land a knockdown. He does it by either walk-up sweep, cannon drilling under my high tigers, or jump roundhouse my lows. Every now and then i'll guess right and land a tiger shot, but he usually gets in without taking a hit (if i do hit him with a standing fierce or roundhouse it tends to trade. tiger uppercut seems to ALWAYS trade, though i know the damage is in my favor.)

After he gets his knockdown, he does safe jump strong, into throw.

This jumping strong is the death of me. It stuffs my tiger uppercuts even on reversal. I've only been able to beat it with jab shoryuken and short flash kick because of the invincibility. So, I'm forced to block. After the block, he goes for the throw.

I can either attempt the reversal or counter throw. The counter throw seems to work at random, but its usually in his favor. The reversal works if it comes out, but we all know its tricky to get a move to come out on the exact reversal frame. So, most of the time he gets the throw, and before you know it he's back in the air again with the j. Strong. Being O. Sagat, I can't tech the throw. He doesn't even know how to holligan throw. He just uses Strong and Roundhouse to win.

The only luck I've had is with O. Ken (j. DP EVERYTHING he does), T. Hawk (360 the tick) and Guile (flash kick the tick). However, I'd really like to learn this matchup with O. Sagat especially with it being one of his easiest fights. I feel bad that I only occasionally win and that's usually if he whiffs a cannon spike or some other dumb mistake.

Also, whats my best move with O. Sagat when a opponent is fighting close range? Standing short into tiger to push them out?

Comments

  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    Learn to piano reversals and tick throws aren't a problem anymore.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
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  • Raistlin XRaistlin X don't even. Joined: Posts: 47
    I do piano, and I do get the reversal sometimes, just not always. You can't really setup tick throws in training mode (that I know of) so it's just something I have to learn on the fly. Not that arcade ST has a training mode...

    I guess I'm asking more of along the lines of how to deal with the j. Strong and how Cammy is Sagats supposed "best matchup" when I can zone out boxer's all day but she can jump from half screen and j. Roundhouse my hands or Cannon Drill me if I throw a high shot to beat the jumps.
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    If she's safe jumping all you can do is block, and if he ticks after the block to throw, only thing you can do is work on your reversals. That's the beauty of ST. There is nothing complicated involved, it's usually pretty black and white.

    In ST, unlike other games there are no tools to ensure you get a fighting chance to comeback. The best option IS TO NEVER PUT YOURSELF IN INESCAPABLE SITUATIONS TO BEGIN WITH
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
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    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    A few things that sound wrong here.

    1. Cammy shouldn't be able to jump in on O gat that easy. Your tiger uppercut reactions are way off. This I think is your biggest problem. Sagats low tiger shots should give you enough time to dp cammy on reaction every time she jumps.

    2. You can not safe jump O gat. No way. I mean technically you can, but the window is so small its almost impossible. If your friend can consistently safe jump o gat, then your friend is a certified pro, playing on a higher level then even the japanese pros. <- sorry, that was a dick head comment. The nerd in me had to get that out of my system. I think what's really happening is your friend is hitting mp at the top of his jump arc, stuffing your dp because sagat is tall. You need to cr when cammy is jumping in and wait till she gets closer to the ground, then DP really deep as she is getting closer to landing.

    3. Even if you block the jump mp, if you know the next move will always be hk grab, there is no reason why you can't reversal DP. After blocking the jump attack, piano hp mp lp and DP the shit out of her.


    That's all I got for now, hope that helped. You might want to PM ultracombo for detailed help, he is a o gat specialist. The match up is correct, a casual o gat player should be able to destroy any cammy player. Look up youtube, this match is fuckin brutal for cammy.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    Ah shit..    
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • BoggleMindsBoggleMinds Joined: Posts: 335
    What DNGR said.

    You need to learn to do deep jump-in DP's -- do the dragon punch crouching when they're just about to land, not when they're still relatively high in the air. Also since Sagat has the fastest wakeup time in the game, there's almost no way Cammy can safejump him consistently, so what you thought was a safejump, wasn't actually a safejump. Every time you DP a jump-in you need to make sure it's timed when they're just about to land. It might be better to play at the slowest speed first so you can work on your DP timing.

    You're not zoning correctly if Cammy is jumping in on you that much. Be mindful of when you're throwing fireballs out, especially how much space is between you and the opponent, and not just shoot blindly. There is a risk free zone for throwing fireballs (usually at long distance or max range), and any closer than that, the risk increases proportionally. You need to be aware of what those distances are, in what situations it's a good bet to throw a fireball, and in what situations you should hesitate for a few moments, and play accordingly.
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  • Raistlin XRaistlin X don't even. Joined: Posts: 47
    Thank you guys so much for the tips. I felt that it was a safe jump because it not only beat my TU, but blanka's up ball, etc. even when I got the reversal message. I didn't know I could TU from crouching and I'll work on that.

    I'll also work on my zoning and try to get my TU timing tighter after a low tigers.

    I'll be at the arcade all day tomorrow so I'll let you guys know if I have any more questions. Thanks again for helping me learn this game. :)
  • papasipapasi N Ken is the truth Joined: Posts: 1,568
    A true safe jump will not _beat_ tiger upper cut, but he will land and block your TU.

    Certain characters have move that can beat reversal up ball if they jump from the correct distance.

    Ken_djfrc3.png
    Blanka_vroll2anm.png

    Like bogglemind said, if you land your TU deep enough, you have a active hitbox and no hurtbox

    OSagat_tu3.png

    But if you do it too early it might trade or get beat

    OSagat_tu4.png

    Go to the wiki and study the various hitboxes and hurtboxes

    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo

    someone just posted this like few days ago, seems like pretty straight forward tiger > dp or sweep repeat, but you need to get the dp motion down and know when to throw a tiger

    eltrouble "I doubt that ST will be on the main stream ever again."
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  • milesokeefemilesokeefe Spammy Joined: Posts: 387
    In ST, unlike other games there are no tools to ensure you get a fighting chance to comeback.

    Verily, ST offers its players no mechanic by which they might WIN AN UNDERDOG VICTORY!
  • Raistlin XRaistlin X don't even. Joined: Posts: 47
    Ah, thanks for those. I'm definitely doing it too late as it's hitting my head at that second frame and trades. I did look at Cammy's hitboxes last night just to see what her j. Strong looked like, and that would explain why it stuffs nearly everything with her hurt box being almost completely underneath her.

    I'm having trouble reading that Blanka one though. It looks like his hurt box surrounds him, so how can he get hit out of it, especially on the reversal frames?

    I knew I had to do Sagat's TU early, but I didn't know I had to do it from a crouch.

    Is sac-throwing legitimate in ST or was it debunked as being no different than blocking the tick? I've heard both.
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    Blanka has 0 start up frames, it hits instantly

    sac throw is very useful, especially for chars as Bison, cuz doesnt have a reversal AA

    only the lp/lk attacks have the same hit n block stun.
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
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    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
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  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    I'm having trouble reading that Blanka one though. It looks like his hurt box surrounds him, so how can he get hit out of it, especially on the reversal frames?

    All you need to beat Blanka's reversal Roll is to use an attack that has a red box that will hit Blanka's blue box before his red box can hit your blue box.

    cammyblanka.png

    Cammy's jump Strong has an incredible amount of priority, it can not only stuff Tiger Uppercuts but Shoryukens too. But in order to do that, she has to do it early, or at the peak of her jump, so that her blue box is still high in the air. If she does a safe jump, her blue box will be lower to the ground, and could possibly trade with TUs or Rolls.

    But if she does it too high, it can be unsafe. This opens her up to reversal throws when she lands, or in Sagat's case reversal Uppercuts before she lands (TU hits fast, so depending on how early Cammy did the jump Strong, you can hit her before she lands). And since Sagat is tall, a lot of players make the mistake of timing their jump attacks too high (myself included), which gives Sagat a chance to punish (if it's a Strong/Forward or Jab/Short which don't cause a lot of blockstun).
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    Cammy's jump Strong has an incredible amount of priority, it can not only stuff Tiger Uppercuts but Shoryukens too.


    Can youput up a pic of this too ? like the Blanka Ball vs Cammy jumping Punch ? Try Ken Fierce DP please.
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  • KyouyaKyouya SSF2T Joined: Posts: 173
    In ST, unlike other games there are no tools to ensure you get a fighting chance to comeback. The best option IS TO NEVER PUT YOURSELF IN INESCAPABLE SITUATIONS TO BEGIN WITH
    Yeah there are, like the ken c.short c.short xx super, just ask frijoles how many times i lose a round because of that... Also a successfully cross up is a guaranteed loss.
    Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    Can youput up a pic of this too ? like the Blanka Ball vs Cammy jumping Punch ? Try Ken Fierce DP please.

    I thought you had MAME dude. Download TRUST and the SF2 hitboxes script, and you can capture the images yourself.
    http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/trust.133401/


    cammyken.png

    The timing on this was critical. It's very hard to do in a real versus battle, usually Cammy will end up trading with Ken. But with the right timing and range, yeah, Cammy can shut it down.
  • Raistlin XRaistlin X don't even. Joined: Posts: 47
    Just wanted to check in and let everyone know my progress.

    I've improved thanks to your tips, though I'm still not a powerhouse.

    I tightened my fireball game. When they get into jump-in distance, I stop throwing tiger shots and throw out normals like s.Fierce to stuff pokes and try to bait the jump-in. I am still having trouble landing the crouching TU, (though i'm getting better) so I'm trying to keep my range to s.Fierce which beats Cammy's j.Strong if i do it early.

    My reversal game is still garbage. I hit the window 1 out of 10 times, and sometimes the TU still gets stuffed depending on the timing of the jump in. I've opted for now to just sac-throw and piano strong/fierce. They almost always tech it but it gives me the distance I need to zone again.

    I also wasn't using my sweep on jump-ins at all. This was HUGE so thanks papasi for that youtube. Not sure how I overlooked that as it's been a part of the game since world warrior. Really helped me as it beats anything clean.

    I still lose if they manage to get in. Too many guessing games after a knockdown since I can't reversal properly.

    What's the best game plan against Balrog when he has Super? I feel since I can't tiger shot he just rush punches me all day. I try to do jump-back roundhouse but it only gets me so far.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    .
    Keep at it! These things take time... What other games have you played? and what are you playing on? (pad? (analog? digital?), stick? (8 microswitches? 4?). Usually i'd say the controller doesn't matter much as long as you are comfortable, but characters with UF motions, i think are the exception. but there are ways to get around it.
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
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  • Raistlin XRaistlin X don't even. Joined: Posts: 47
    Keep at it! These things take time... What other games have you played? and what are you playing on? (pad? (analog? digital?), stick? (8 microswitches? 4?). Usually i'd say the controller doesn't matter much as long as you are comfortable, but characters with UF motions, i think are the exception. but there are ways to get around it.

    i'm playing on a candy cab with sanwa JLF sticks and buttons. i can do the motions just fine, i just can't do them on the reversal frame. :<
  • PaskyPasky Ninja with pistol! Joined: Posts: 1,863
    Piano.
    <Pasky> so you can go extra fast by just holding it?
    <bookah> turbo handjob
    <baklakiller> sure if had a penis
    <baklakiller> im a beginner gief
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    i'm playing on a candy cab with sanwa JLF sticks and buttons. i can do the motions just fine, i just can't do them on the reversal frame. :<

    Landing reversals is very difficult unless you practice the shit out of it. You have 1 frame to land the reversal, in a game that has both frame-skipping and runs at lower fps rates than modern games. Like Pasky says, your best bet is to piano the buttons as you do it. You want to press the buttons roughly around the same time that your character is about to push up off the ground on wake-up.
  • UnessentialUnessential Joined: Posts: 1,168
    yeah. pianoing is a good habit to get into. Almost everytime I get a reversal its the lk\lp version of the reversal but I still piano all my reversals incase i screw up the timing (and occasionally I do andget the other versions of the move)
    <quitjockinmystyle> everybody i wil approve what is cheating moves or not.
    STToronto https://www.facebook.com/groups/499056723549379/
    Because very few ST players check SRK anymore. mostly it's the local facebook group and NHC.
    PM me here or on facebook if you need a stick mod or repair. Same with arcade boards and superguns.
  • blitzfublitzfu Cosmic Power Joined: Posts: 3,072
    In case you don't know what pianoing is:

    Super SF2 Turbo Advanced Tutorial
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